for every single company in this

country. If you want to benefit from AI

and have it pay for itself, all you have

to do is this one thing.

[music]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Cara Swisser and once again

it is

Scottree August.

>> I so never get tired of that. And while

Scott continues his August adventures,

who the knows where he is, I

brought on yet another guest host to

make him jealous. This is my goal. It is

Mark Cuban, entrepreneur and co-founder

of Cos Plus Drugs. He's here. Good to

see you, Mark.

>> Always good to be seen by you, Cara.

It's always a pleasure.

>> Yeah, thank you. Um, we've got a lot to

get to today. You you I texted you and

said, "What do you want to talk about?"

You said healthcare. Healthcare.

Healthcare. So, we are going to focus on

healthcare, but there's a few other

things, but first uh let's talk

healthcare. prescription drug prices had

their biggest year-over-year drop in

more than 60 years. President Trump is

taking a victory lap for that. While his

Trump RX site, which is your company

cost plus drugs, is partnering with, uh,

may be a factor, but experts say a Biden

era policy requiring Medicare to

negotiate drug prices is more likely

driving costs down.

You you got a lot of criticism when this

partnership was first announced, not

from me. I thought it was actually

smart. Um, talk about it a little bit.

Uh, talk about

>> It's really simple. They refer traffic.

Yeah.

>> You know, it it's just, you know, a

portal that people can go to, look up

prices for 600 drugs,

>> like Obamacare, for example. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, a little bit different.

>> Get there.

>> Yeah. I mean, you can you go to

trumprx.com and you put in the name of

the medication and if they have it, it

comes up and if we're the cheapest, it

refers you to us. We've seen our volumes

increase, our sales increase, and the

good news about that is Republicans want

cheaper drugs, independents want cheaper

drugs, Democrats. So, it's it's a win.

And we've seen our volumes go up, and

you know, when our volumes go up, our

costs typically go down. And because

we're cost plus 15%, we've passed on

those savings. So, we've literally

dropped the price since Trump RX

launched, I think we've dropped the

price for over 200 medications. So, you

know, there's no downside.

>> There's no So, talk about both of them.

This policy from Biden and also what

Trump is doing um requiring Medicare to

negotiate drug prices at the same time.

>> So, a couple different things. So, um,

with the IRA where you're negotiating,

um, for 10 different medications, that's

a bonus because along with that, it also

put a cap on, um, on the amount of

out-ofpocket that comes with Medicare um

to part with to $2,100.

And that in turn increased premiums,

right? Because the insurance companies

had to compensate for the cap that was

made available to the patients, which is

great for patients. I'm not complaining

at all. So, it kind of balanced those

things out, but there were some drugs

where it pushed down the price and and

that's always a positive. There's no

downside there at all. Um, but I think

the bigger issue was that we had

bioimilars come out. Um, and that pushed

the price of like explain.

>> So, biosimilar is like a generic for an

injectable drug. Instead of it being a

tablet, which should just be called a

generic, it is an injectable drug. So

like Stellara, umra right things that

are injectable. They had the equivalent

a generic version with it's called a

bioimilar and that dropped the price for

Stellara for from $128,000 a year to on

cost plus it's $365 plus shipping every

couple months. Right. For Humira, it

went from $8,000 a month to like $400 a

month, $450 a month on cost plus. And so

you saw some really, really expensive,

popular drugs drop in price

significantly. And I think that drove it

more than anything.

>> Drove it more than anything. What else

has to be done to bring the prices down?

So you want to be on the Trump AR site

because you want um volume, right?

Presumably people using

>> I think he's done a [clears throat]

great job on IVF.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. Explain that.

meaning if you're trying to, you know,

build a family and you need the the

fertility drugs, they were really

expensive and he negotiated lower

prices, give him credit for that. You

know, he put some some pressure on the

GLP1 guys and they came out and

particularly within Medicare where in

certain cases you can get it for $50 a

month. So, he helped push in that

direction. So, you know, love them or

hate them, and I'm certainly not going

to say anything that's going to change

anybody's mind, and I'm not going to

try, but at the same time, you know,

give them credit where credit is due.

>> So, you got in a lot of trouble when you

were arguing with people. You pulled a a

curse thing. I didn't think you should

take that down, honestly. Um, off when

people were arguing you, were you

surprised by that? Because I think your

goal is very clear. You want to lower

prescription drug prices.

>> Yeah. It's just the the people, you

know, that's just the way it is. You

know, there's two types of TDS. There's

Trump um derangement syndrome and

there's Trump devotion syndrome, right?

>> You know, and they're both equally

equal, right? And whatever side of that

you're on, that's the button, you know,

your buttons that get pushed and the

buttons you try to push. But, you know,

ignore it. Like I said, there's nothing

I'm going to say that's going to change

anybody's mind about Donald Trump, and

I'm certainly not going to try. And when

you're thinking about what has to be

done next, you can't just put pressure

on these these people because you have

to have other things happen, right? How

do you keep that up the idea of it of

what you're doing? Now, there was prices

did go up during COVID because the

supply chain, etc., etc. How do what has

to happen next on a on a bigger scale

>> on medication or across the board?

>> Across the well, across the board, talk

about it across the board. Well, I mean

just generally um

there has to be improvements in

processes and reduction in prices and

all the inputs are changing, right? And

I think the missing piece that's really

driving a lot of um inflation, you can

argue whether it's high or low is, you

know, our the deficit, you know, the

debt that we're we're paying a trillion

dollars a year on. And you're starting

to see that. I don't know what interest

rates were doing the last couple days,

but you know, the 10 years is up to like

4.6 4.7, the 30 years over 5.3.

>> People are much worried about this.

Yeah.

>> Right. And so, you know, if you think of

it big picture, you always look at the

extreme and say what would happen,

right? We saw what happens if there's

zero interest rates. Everything gets

inflated. But let's just say, and this

won't happen hopefully that, well, I'll

put it in context. When I graduated from

Indiana University, interest rates were

15%.

Is there a potential for interest rates

to go to 15% again? I don't think so.

But if they did, just for sake of

example, the price of everything would

go up. But more or just as importantly,

the price of stocks would go down

significantly. The price of um assets

would go down significantly. 61% of

people own stocks directly or or

indirectly. That's going to change that

wealth effect, which I think is holding

some people up. Now, there's still that

K-shaped economy where people who are

struggling are truly struggling and it's

going to get worse. But if interest

rates go up, it'll get dramatically

worse for them. But at the top of the K,

it'll get worse for everybody else as

well. And that's my big concern because

we don't know what that inflection point

is. We don't know is it 6%, is it 8%.

Who knows? But we know there is some

level where the only people that would

get rewarded are savers. savers, right?

Exactly. Because they'll they'll get

more money. I remember that 15%. I

remember it was crazy. It was It was

crazy at the time. At the time it was

crazy. 6% was was

>> It seemed like I My first mortgage 12%.

>> 12%. Mine too. Mine too. You're right.

Um what I mean credit due deficit Trump,

right? Like Trump has risen the deficit.

>> Everybody. Yeah. Everybody.

>> Yeah. Trump, Biden, you name it.

>> Trump I think get wins the I think Scott

is

>> Well, in terms of aggra, but it's a lot

of big numbers, too. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

>> A 5% growth on a bigger number is going

to be bigger than a 5% growth.

>> Absolutely. But when you think about

what has to be done then so what happen

you know this has to do healthcare of

course is one of the biggest costs for

people.

>> We have an economy um a healthcare

economy that is driven by just a few

companies. You know they they are the

middlemen are driving up the cost of

everything. You know not just pharmacy

but also medical costs. you name it.

There's nothing. They don't they don't

contribute much of any value. Yet they

increase the cost. They, you know, they

make it more miserable for doctors.

>> Technical name for these guys. They're

>> well, there's a bunch of them, right?

So, you know, so there's the big

healthcare conglomerates, the United

Sigas, the CVS's, etc. Um, and they ha

have hundreds if not thousands of

subsidiaries which include PBMs, which

include thirdparty administrators, which

include um, copay maximizer, all these

consultants. There's just so many ways

that they get into your pocket and you

don't even know it's them. You know,

they own um, clinics, they own, you

know, doctors, they hire, you know, 10%

either directly or under contract.

number of doctors at the biggest

healthcare conglomerate. And so, you

know, that creates so much friction and

so much cost in the system that we don't

even control the cost of our health care

system anymore.

>> No, it's it's it's interesting because I

I think about my own I have a bunch of

prescription drugs and I do even

understand them and I'm a smart person

like I don't understand where the it's

not easy for anybody and obviously

>> no that's why we started cost plus right

because nobody knows the And I I thank

you for that. No problem.

costblooddrugs.com.

Um, nobody understand nobody knows what

something costs. Nobody understands why

it costs it. Nobody understands why

there's a different price for everybody.

Nobody understands why there's no

transparency other than cost plus drugs,

literally. And so if you don't

understand these things, it's designed

to be confusing. The more information

asymmetry, the better leverage they have

to raise prices and create friction. And

that's exactly what they do. And there's

a lot of indirect not obvious scenarios

that are created. So so much work is

done to be able to um provide the

information that they require for each

claim, for each medical instance or

pharmacy that you're driving doctors

crazy. Not only are you reducing the

amount of time they're able to spend

with patients, but you're you're

creating burnout to the nth degree. And

it wouldn't shock me, you know, if we're

starting to see the the number of

applicants for med school start to

decline.

>> It's my brother's number one complaint.

He's a doctor. Number one complaint.

Number one.

>> Yeah. It's all the they make you do

other than caring for the patient. And

it's not necessary. You could extract

all that if you if you just got rid of

PBMs. And literally not even get rid of

them. If you just say made a law that

said um PBMs are no longer able to

control formularies. Formularies are

that thing you have to look at with your

insurance coverage to see if your drug

is covered or not. That gives the PBMs

all the leverage to go to all these big

brand and specialy drug manufacturers

and say, "Look, if you don't do exactly

what we want in paying rebates, doing

business or not doing business with cost

plus drugs, then we're going to diminish

your positioning on the formulary so

that you're no longer available to the

80 million people we cover. And not just

for one drug but for your entire

portfolio or will Yeah. So that's

costing you hundreds of millions or

billions. So they have that much control

and they do so little you know they

don't really add much value.

>> What do they try to do to your company?

What is the biggest challenge?

>> Well they just they tell these brands

like we have almost every generic other

than controlled substances. We don't

want to deal with that. Not everything's

generic in some critical

>> not everything is and so then there's

brands and branded specialty drugs and

they'll we'll go to the brands and say

look we have millions of customers right

we're helping millions and millions of

people why won't you sell your brands

through us and the answer is always

identical because the PBMs have told us

if we deal with cost plusddrugs.com

we are going to they will diminish us on

their formularies and as I said it could

cost tens of millions hundreds of

millions billions of dollars across

their entire drug portfolio. And they're

like, "Mark, we love you, but we can't

cut off our nose to spite our face." And

the reason that they're afraid that the

PBMs are afraid is because of what we

done what we've done to the pricing of

bioimilars and specialty generics.

Right? When we started publishing the

price with our cost, everybody all of a

sudden had a reference point with which

to negotiate from. Even the FTC, Lena

Khan, when she was suing these guys was

using our price list and our markups to

divine define, you know, how much people

were getting ripped off and to, you

know, lead towards your settlement. And,

you know, now if all of a sudden you

could see what the actual cost is of

your Zorelto or whatever it may be and

see what the price would be with only a

15% markup, that stabilizes the pricing

and revenue for all the PBMs and the

insurance companies that own them. But

you can't publish the prices of the the

ones you can't get, can you?

>> Correct. Right. Well, yeah, because we

don't know what our cost is. We can't

sell them. And they don't want us to be

able to sell them specific.

>> Could you not get those lists, Mark, and

start publishing?

>> No. No. Literally, it's like Fight Club.

Number one rule of Fight Club is you

can't talk about Fight Club. Number one

rule of PBM contracts and pricing. You

can't talk about it. And I'll give you

the perfect example.

>> You're a clever man. I bet you could get

your hands on them.

>> It's not that I can't, but it doesn't

really help me. in terms of pricing,

right? Or sell. But let me give you the

perfect example.

There is something called Triricare

which provides pharmacy to the military

people that are enlisted now, people

that are retired, wherever they may

live, right? And Elizabeth Warren went

to them and they said, "Okay, Triricare,

you have hired this company, this big

PBM called Express Scripts."

>> I know them well.

>> Right. So, express scripts. And so, I

want to know what you're charging the

government every time mil somebody in

the military or formerly in the military

uses um a drug that you carry.

Express Script said no. The military

said, "We're not going to show you.

That's proprietary information. Get the

out of here." Right. Like you said,

you know, you can find it if you need to

find it, but um President Trump could

ask for it. They would say no. Ah, wow.

So, we can't know their prices. They

can't know their prices. Interesting.

>> They hide them. And that's what they do,

not just in this instance, but across

the board,

>> right? So, we don't know because once we

>> So, we don't know. That's why they're

terrified of cost plus drugs.

>> Well, what has to give? Yeah. What has

to give then?

>> Well, I like the, you know, I love the

break up big medicine bill that Josh

Holly and Elizabeth Warren um proposed

in the Senate, but not one single

senator got behind them and co-sponsored

it.

>> Wow. That's anyone. Where's it in the

House? They even have it in the house.

No,

>> no one's even brought it up. And I

pushed it. You name it. Right. You,

anybody, every senator when I saw you

right at those events, I talked to all

of them.

>> What did they say to you? Quietly behind

the scenes.

>> Quietly behind the back. We want their

money.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz they'll

>> We have We have midterms coming up.

>> Yeah. Maybe after the midterms. Do they

will they get any guts? So, another big

news in World of Health, I don't know

what you think of this. Costco is

getting into the Medicare business. The

company is teaming up with nonprofit

insurer Scan Group to launch Costco

branded Medicare Advantage plans in two

states and Medicare supplement plans in

a third. The plans will integrate Costco

offerings like prescriptions and

overthe-counter drugs plus vision and

hearing products. Talk about this. It

was really, you know, I'm getting close

to Medicare and although I have

insurance, so I don't quite know what I

need to do in that regard by the it's so

confusing because I have kids and so I

want to keep my insurance. But um what

do you think of the this kind of thing?

It's a sales and marketing effort,

right? It's I mean I don't know enough

about the details to say if it's good or

bad. There are some you know the thing

that people don't realize about Medicare

in general, it is driven mostly by

private insurance companies.

>> It is

>> Medicare Advantage is all private

insurance. United Healthcare in this

case a new one with Costco. You know

Costco does a good job. Hopefully, you

know, it'll be an above board product

because not all of them are. Then you

have traditional Medicare part A, part

B, but then you have to buy supplemental

insurance because you still, you know,

have a 20% hickey that you have to pay

for out of pocket for medical, right?

And then you doesn't cover your um

pharmacy. That's part D. So you use that

from um a traditional insurance company.

So you're getting you have the same

problems even though you're on Medicare.

>> Right. Right. People say take A and B,

not Advantage and D.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And get supplemental

insurance, too.

>> Right. Right. Exactly. But but it does

this help if if a company like Costco is

doing this? People have a lot of trust

in the company.

>> No, it's still the same numbers. The

math is still the same math. You can be

more efficient and offer incremental um

incremental benefits. So you might, you

know, Costco could offer lower cost

over-the-counter drugs. They can offer

lower cost prescription um eyeglasses

because it's Costco.

>> But it's not the future of healthcare

turning it over to big business.

>> No, no, no.

>> Yeah. So again, what has to happen is

what? Well, I mean, so you've got to get

rid of the middleman, right? And so what

I push for all the time is to get cities

and states and companies to let me look

at their contracts because I what I do

is I've set up my Claude. So I'll just

run and anybody can do this. I run the

contracts through Claude and I just tell

them where they're getting over.

>> Oh.

>> And they have no idea. I've literally

had some big big companies do it, talk

to me, realize just how badly these PBMs

and TPAs, the big the big Columbus are

ripping them off and now they're

changing to, you know, their pass

through um PBMs like Rightway and um 360

um or Smith RX and right um I forget all

the names of them, but in any event, so

there's alternatives. You don't have to

go just with the big guy and you're

doing the country a big disservice. And

look, you know tech, right? And so, you

know, these guys are trying to do all

they can to figure out AI and it's

expensive. The easiest way for any big

tech company for more with more than a

thousand members, you know, employees

and families, is to look at their health

care benefits because every penny they

save on their health care benefits is

cash flow that goes right to the bottom

line. And they it's just not their core

competency. And what happens is their HR

departments, particularly in tech, are

always under manned and underst staffed.

And you know that when somebody has a

problem at Vox Media or whoever does

your healthcare and benefits, they go

right to HR and they complained about

getting, you know, having to go through

this pre-authorization process about the

claim being denied. And HR spends 90% of

their time doing that and doesn't have

the resources to look at reducing costs.

And when they do see and I'll walk in

the door and meet with them and huge

companies, Mark, you're right. We could

save millions if not tens of millions of

dollars or more and give us a 20p that's

200 million,2 billion, whatever it is in

market cap, but we're afraid of our

employees because they don't want to

change the logo on their card. They want

that same insurance card. So for the one

time in all of tech history, they're

afraid of their employees because the HR

people and all I tell them they have to

do is two things. Run their contracts,

all their healthcare contracts through

Claude or Chat GPT and just say

>> what's the prompt? What's the prompt?

How am I getting over?

>> Oh, all right. Okay. Is that the

technical term?

>> Yeah. Yeah, it really really is. And

it'll tell you because the game they

play, the PBMs in particular play is

they mismatch definitions. They'll say

this um this section is for pass through

pricing on drugs. We will pass through

all the rebates. Then at the bottom of

that paragraph, they'll put in the

definitions and they'll say, "Well, that

doesn't include specialty drugs or other

fees,"

>> which is all of them.

>> And then they get the option of what to

make a specialty drug,

>> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's just it's they game the whole

thing. And the reason they can do that

is these contracts are 50, 100, 200

pages long in some cases. There's no

human that has enough coffee available

to them to literally go through and

drink it. I have gone through and put

contracts through where and these are

contracts provided by these huge

insurance companies, multiundred billion

dollar companies, right? And they have

misspellings. They, you know, this says

36%, this says 46%. And they didn't even

catch it, right? It's so mind-numbing.

>> Yeah. So you have to think the grifters

would be good at good at

>> Oh, they're brilliant at it, right?

Because that's to their favor, right?

Well, it's it's to their their benefit.

So that's why you need AI. So if you

want for every single company in this

country,

>> if you want to benefit from AI and have

it pay for itself, all you have to do is

this one thing

>> to apply it to healthcare.

>> Yes. Put your contracts in there.

>> You know, you know what I've been doing

around this Paramount deal? I have a

friend who's a lawyer who's been putting

it into Claude all the stuff and then he

sends it to me and I have to tell you

it's accurate as and then I say

something and everyone's like how did

she know it would turn out this way and

I was like this is good but it is it

matters the person matters the prompts

and how you have to be smart that it was

it's him and

>> and the pro the him and the prompt and

Claude

>> by itself you have to be smart enough to

know when Claude is long.

>> That's right. That's right. But I have

to tell you with the combination, it's

been startlingly right. But like it's

like using Claude or Shachi PT for for

healthcare. Yeah.

>> Right. It's like, well, you didn't tell

me that you had this blood test three

years ago, right? So I gave you the

wrong answer, so I have to recorrect it.

>> Right. Exactly. So speaking of

healthcare costs, I want to continue and

finish on this. You had a post on X the

other day that got people talking. You

wrote, "If you own shares in a fund that

owns any big of the biggest insurance

carriers, you're part of the cost of

healthcare problem in this country.

Those companies put the share price over

the health of you, your family,

co-workers, and friends. The worst part

is that they will lie and mislead you to

make more. Tell the funds you own that

you will sell if they don't divest their

interest in the biggest insurance

companies. That that's something else to

do that." Explain why you're calling

this out now. And do you think funds

will actually divest?

>> So, no, they won't. Some can't just

because it's SPX or it's part of an

index, right? But they won't because

their interest is just in making money,

not in doing what's best for the

country. And it's the same with the big

insurance companies. Their fiduciary

responsibility, at least right now, is

to shareholders. That's all they care

about.

>> Yeah. Reminds me of tech companies. But

go ahead.

>> Yeah. Right. Um, but when you listen to

the quarterly earlings conference calls

or run them through your favorite LLM,

right, and you just say, "Did they say

anything about reducing costs for

patients?"

The answer is never yes.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> You know, and if they maybe save

something here, they're making it up in

fees or somewhere else. They're not

they're rarely saying like um one

company one PBM insurance company said

their earnings are going to be a little

bit lower for two years because they're

making this one adjustment on rebates,

but they'll make it up after that and

more than compensate and get back to

their normal margins. Get the out

of here. Like nobody is going to change

their habits that run these companies

unless

it impacts it where they care and that's

the price of the stock.

>> Yeah. So does that happen? I mean it

works with South African companies. It

works. But this is

>> No, it can when someone, you know, if

you had Bernie saying do this, if you

had, you know, Jipal doing this instead

of pushing for Medicare for all and just

talking trash there, um, something could

happen. If you had Republicans pushing

it, it could happen. But again, that's

where their money's coming from.

>> That's where their money.

>> And I'm not saying Bernie and Jip are

getting it, but a lot of people are. So,

what would you um what reaction did you

get? They must have been like

>> not a whole lot honestly. Just a couple

articles and you know some requests for

quotes and nobody said, "Yeah, I did

it." Not one single person.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to do it,

Mark.

>> Thank you.

>> I shall do it. I shall do it. Now, yet

another post of yours is generating buzz

this week. A prediction, one outlet

says, has investors watching. You posted

chips as an asset class will be the new

crypto. Explain for me. Yeah, I mean I

sold most of my Bitcoin. I went from not

being a believer to being a believer

thinking it um it's a better gold than

gold because it's digital. Um and I also

believe that it would be a good hedge

against political and geopolitical

instability.

That it'd be a hedge against, you know,

um economic instability.

>> No. Yeah. Scott got washed out, too, by

the way.

>> Yeah. Bitcoin has lost the plot.

>> Tell me why. Explain. Well, all the

things I just mentioned had to come

true. That's what the maxis were

pushing, right? It's protection.

Protection against fiat instability. You

know, money printer go burr, right?

Money printers burring as much as it

could possibly burr, right? And the

dollar is down. And so, you would think

the price of Bitcoin and dollars would

be skyrocketing, particularly with all

this geopolitical instability and all

the uncertainty. But it's not. it's, you

know, it's flatlined for the most part.

Um because if there's not a good

narrative, like any other stock, right?

If the narrative isn't good, supply and

demand defines the price unless it pays

dividend, which these don't. And so

people aren't buying it. And the reason

I said chips are the the next thing is

because it's not intuitive until you

really think about it, right? chips are

like, you know, the Nvidia chips, AMD

chips, maybe TPUs from Google and some

others. Amazon's trying to make their

own, you know, all that stuff.

>> Yeah,

>> yeah, Apple is, right? They're like

apartments, right? You can rent them and

when they're brand new, they're worth

the most. And you might as well rent

them out the at the highest price and

then over time they degrade in quality

um because you can't improve them um at

least not now. And so I think it makes a

good investment and it makes one that

you can create a really cool narrative

about there's so much money chasing it

that the crypto bros kind of like these

types of things, right? And so narrative

makes economic sense. Um, lots of money

there. New crypto.

>> How do you make it an asset class then?

Just the stocks in it, the stocks of

companies that make it.

>> Yeah, you you can tokenize it. You can

use crypto there to tokenize it and sell

it as a real world asset. Um, they can

do

>> tokenize the stocks.

>> No, tokenize a chip.

>> A chip.

>> Yeah, a chip. You know, here's here's

the right to the to to you own the

right. It's like a barrel of oil. You

can buy it and sell it, right?

>> Oh, like what Michael Sailor was doing,

right? Correct. Or not.

>> Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. With with the

Bitcoin itself. That's a lot more

complicated. That's more financial

engineering, right? But more like you

can put contracts on the um the chips

and le and take the share of revenue

created from that chip and sell it.

>> Right. Oh, interesting. Are you doing

that?

>> I'm still trying to learn there's I mean

it's relatively new.

>> What's the what's the reaction to that?

>> I mean it was like interesting. Let's

see what happens. And the crypto bros

that are still holding on. You're an

idiot. You know you're dumb.

>> Holder. Holder.

>> What are they waiting for? What are they

what are they actually they're hoping it

will go to the sky?

>> There's still a chance it gets hot

again, right? Yeah.

>> Remember, it's supply and demand. I

mean, a stock's not a whole lot

different than a baseball card. And

whatever's hot and whatever has the the

the greatest narrative. So, Bitcoin and

all the others, Ethereum could go up.

I'm really disappointed in Ethereum

because it has smart contracts. And my

hope when I got excited about it was

that we'd be able to use smart contracts

and the the ledger of Bitcoin to create

better social media applications to

create new types of applications that um

feed data to to other things, right?

Like tracking the weather so I could buy

weather insurance for a Mavs game in

case it snows, you know, that type of

thing. But it never really came to

fruition. And everybody just tried to

play the same games. How can I extract

the most amount of money from a new

blockchain? Because the biggest downfall

of crypto always has been the marginal

cost to create a competitive blockchain

is close to zero. So everybody created

their own said amazing it was and you

can't have that many.

>> Right. Right. Because then it goes say

like Trumpcoin down to zero and then you

lose all your money at it.

>> I know it sounds crazy to say but a lot

of it was a scam. I I believe.

>> Yeah. I mean, look, I when when

Trumpcoin came out, I again, I'm not

it's not even relevant to Trump. He

doesn't have the only memecoin or

shitcoin out there. I literally emailed

the people I know at Coinbase. So, what

the are you doing putting these

shitcoins out when you know all you're

going to do is watch people lose their

money cuz it's just a game of musical

chairs. And then you you know online if

if X is like anything, they'll tell you

we know it's musical chairs. We know

it's not even as good as a lottery

ticket and that's why we play. Right.

>> Right. That's our gambling and that's

our

>> also there's there's also another idiot

out there ahead.

>> Yeah. Well, that's the whole point,

right? That Yeah. And so it's just it's

just gambling and it's just that's

that's the rush they get.

>> One thing what can people do with either

their prescription drugs? What's the one

thing? Is it insurance not invest in

insurance companies? Is it is it move to

away from the express scripts or

whatever? What is the one thing people

can do to start moving the ball? Because

politicians certainly won't.

>> It's it's got to be the CEOs. So,

self-insured companies um provide

insurance to 67% of employees who get

insurance from work. 67%.

>> So, most of Yeah.

>> Yeah. And so if those CEOs got their

together and weren't idiots and

just run these contracts through their

LLMs and just adapted their contracts

accordingly, the whole business would

change like that.

>> Yeah. I like your convincing. If you're

not idiots, you idiots, that's that's

how you persuade people.

>> Yeah. No, I you know, you get the point

though, right?

>> I do. That's how I talk. How would you

what would you call a CEO of a company?

Yeah. That has a chance to save millions

and millions and millions of dollars,

increase their stock price as a direct

result, improve the health and wellness

of their employees and their families

and refuses to do it.

>> Yeah. Yep. No, you're right. Idiots.

Yeah. No, you want to be right or you

want to be effective. That's the whole

thing,

>> right? And you're not even being right.

You're looking like an idiot.

>> And so I'm hoping I can't name the

company, but there was one company who

did exactly what I said. Exactly. And

they just got back to me and they said,

"We're saving millions upon millions,

more than we ever possibly could. We get

an a we did an audit. We're going to get

a refund." And I said, "Please just do

one thing for me. Just say on your

quarterly earnings conference call that

this is why earnings are up."

>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and

>> if you do that,

>> then they're copycats. They're sheep.

They'll do it. You're right. 100%. Uh we

listen to Mark. Okay, Mark, let's go on

a quick break. When we come back,

billionaires buying sports teams. You

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terms [music] apply.

Family drama is complicating the

blockbuster sale of the LA Lakers.

Jeannie Bus, controlling owner of the

Lakers, is challenging her siblings

attempts to sell the family's remaining

17.8%

stake, arguing the sale can't happen

without her consent. This comes after

former Disney CEO Bob Iger and Thrive

Capitals Josh Kushner, the other

Kushner, agreed to buy the Lakers from

current majority owner Mark Walter in a

deal valued at 12.5 billion. Walter's in

a bit of a trouble with all all manner

of his very problematic empire, whatever

it is. Iger and Kushner are already

buying 60% of 65% of the team, adding

the bus family shares would bring their

ownership to roughly 83%. Now, this is a

world you know well I I was really

fascinated this. You bought the Dallas

Mavericks in 2000. You sold your

majority stake in 2023. We're talking

about Chips is an asset class, but our

sports team seem to be an asset class

now. And I'll note recently Dallas

Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said he was

open to uh you coming on as a minority

owner, but the team is he was just

kidding. Yeah.

>> Any investors at this point. Uh uh but

you you'd I assume you'd buy it if if it

was available presumably,

>> but that's depends on Yeah. Neither

there. Yeah,

>> depends on the price. So, uh, explain

what's happening here for me. I I I find

this really interesting, especially, you

know, you have Iger in there, which is

interesting. I think he's the pretty one

and Josh is the money. Um, explain

what's happening here.

>> Couple things. One, it's a vanity asset.

Like, if I didn't buy the Dallas

Mavericks, probably wouldn't know who I

was, right? I mean, you would because of

tech, but most people would not. I would

not be a celebrity. I wouldn't have

gotten on Shark Tank,

>> right? David Stern, rest in peace, was

the commissioner of the NBA and he used

to always say, "I made you by finding

you all those times." And he was right.

Yeah. You know, it is [laughter] the

ultimate vanity asset.

>> Was it your behavior?

>> No. You know, there was there's 30 NBA

teams, 32 in other leagues. And so, we

know Jerry Jones's name, not because he

was in the oil business. You know,

people now know who Josh Kushner is, not

just because of his brother. And so,

that it one, it's a vanity asset. Um,

two, because it's a vanity asset and now

the leagues are allowing private equity

to get involved,

>> that's increasing the prices because

private equity chases where the

narratives are,

>> you know, and this is crypto for rich

people in some respects, right? Right.

It's it's where the fun narrative is.

But from a true business perspective,

there's two sides to this. one, if you

can leverage it to build, you know, so

if you look around Staples where

Crypto.com Center, right? There's all

kinds of cool stuff. There's um if you

go by there's the battery outside

Atlanta, right? There's by the Chase

Center, there's all kinds of stuff,

right? And so if you're able to build

all that stuff, you can make real money.

So it's not the team per se, but it's

the leverage it gives you by the

surrounding area. Yeah. Right. And you

can do once you own the arena, you can

do concerts, which is where the Mavs and

the Dallas Stars, who we shared the

arena with, made most of our money,

right, by doing concerts and events

with the Nets. Yeah. They don't even

have to have a good basketball team.

>> No, you don't. You really, really don't

because the delta

>> They have a good women's basketball

team, but go ahead. Yeah.

>> Yeah. But the delta between the number

of fans when you suck and when you win a

championship, you can raise ticket

prices, but it's not a huge number in

the bigger scheme of things. It's all

driven um by the externals, the real

estate and by streaming, right? Because

the NBA's got a huge revenue deal and

you divide that by 30 teams and that's

real money, right?

>> And so, you know, that increases the

valuation as well. But here's the

caveat. If you want to win, it's going

to cost you decent amount of money to

win, even with the second apron, this

new thing they put in in the NBA. And so

you've got to be willing to, you know,

accept putting money in um to cover

losses in most cases and be willing to

invest in all these external things. And

that was the thing with me. I didn't

want to be in the real estate business.

I wanted to be in the basketball

business. And it really changed to be a

PE driven business as opposed to people

like me and Jeannie Bus who were who

cared about fans.

>> You didn't want to do restaurants.

>> No, I didn't want to do any of that

Right. in it. You I pretty much

had would have had to,

>> right? And so what is going to happen

with Jeannie Boss? Explain her as an

owner. I mean, I

>> love Gina. I love Genie. I love her.

Love her. Love her. She cares about

fans. She was always engaged. She wanted

to do what's best for, you know, not

just Lakers, but

>> Kate Hudson is playing her well in that

show. But go ahead.

>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that, you

know, it's a fair, you know,

representation of J. She's just got a

good heart. And so, we'll see what

happens. I really don't know. But

>> what do you think's going to happen

here? What? What? Can't she stop them?

That depends on the legal aspects of it.

>> It depends if she can buy them out,

>> right? Oh, that's right. Has she come to

>> because she has to keep 15%. And I have

no idea if she can buy out her siblings

because if she can,

>> then she can. She doesn't have to buy

all of them out. Just enough to get to

15%.

>> Well, I think they all want to sell. I

think all I think there are five of

them. Is that right? Five of them total.

>> Yeah, five of them, right? Five of them.

And so, you would think they would sell

to her, you know.

>> Would they Is there others who could buy

it like

>> Well, no. the whole Iger group, you

know, the Iger Kushner group could, but

um

>> could they sell it to somebody else?

Yeah, but

>> she wants to stay controlling owner. So,

and she [clears throat] has to be over a

certain amount. Would it be% Yeah. Would

it be attractive to them to have her

have that if they own so much of it?

>> I don't know. I mean, she could possibly

even offer them a little bit more than

um John and Bob are or Josh and Bob are.

>> Uhhuh. Oh. Oh. Offer over Walter, you

mean?

>> Yeah.

>> No. Oh, the family. The family.

>> Well, no. So, they've got the family has

got the trust in their existing

holdings. And you've got Bob Iger and

Josh Kushner coming in off 12.5 billion,

right? And taking out Walter and the

siblings,

>> right? And would they want to stay if

they can't take her out?

>> Yeah, they probably would because I

don't think she wants to stay forever.

And I think she only would do it um

based off of what I've read um for the

term of the contract she has with Mark

Walter. Mhm. Which is what which is

>> four years left, I think.

>> Yeah. So, so what do you imagine is

going to happen here? What has what

should happen? How about that?

>> I mean, what should happen is she should

be able to do a contractual arrangement

where she commits to sell her percentage

to um Bob and and Josh and four years in

exchange for running the team for those

four years. That's what should happens.

>> Why would she want to do that? because

she loves doing it. She loves the Lakers

fans. She loves being part of it. I

mean, look, it's I mean, having been

there, it's stressful, but at the same

time, it becomes your identity and you

get to learn to know all the fans and

you get to love them and they love you

and you know, it's just a different

feeling.

>> And how do you assess Bob Iger as this

is his next chapter? And Josh,

presumably Josh lives in New York.

>> Yeah, Bob, I love Bob, right? I think

he's smart. He's fair. He's caring. He's

empathetic. Right. He's an LA guy. He's

an LA guy.

>> He's an LA guy. He knows the scene.

Right. I would see him at Clippers game.

And anybody who would support like he'd

bring his son all the time. And anybody

who would support the Clippers when the

Clippers were bad is a true basketball

fan.

>> Okay. All right.

>> So that that means a lot these days.

>> Yeah. So where is this all going these

prices of all these sports teams? You

know, there's a lot of financial

engineering involved and so it really

kind of correlates to the NASDAQ and to

the price of tech. As long as money's

coming in, you know that a big big chunk

of that money goes to private equity. A

big chunk, you know, people's holdings

can be borrowed against to buy a portion

of the team. So, you know, if it's $10

billion and you have to own 15%, you

have to come up with 1.5 billion and

you're probably not going to write a

check because it's after tax check,

right? So you borrow against other

assets and that gives you the 1.5. you

get amortization and depreciation from

the players contract which maybe you

know offsets the the gains you

anticipate from chat GPT go you know

open AAI going public or you anthropic

going public and so there there's a

strategy there but if the price of those

assets drop

two things can kill right one if the

price of those assets drop so you can't

borrow against them or you get called in

right that's a real problem And two, all

the TV money for all the four big

professional sports is built on the fact

that

by streaming the games, you can add more

um subscribers and have less churn and

better well you're you're reading all

this stuff now with um Paramount and all

that's going on, right? They need a

couple things to work for them. They

need Paramount Plus to not only add

subscribers, they need to reduce churn.

And if the sports contracts do both of

those things, add subs, reduce churn,

it's worth the price paid. If they

don't,

the hits the fan.

>> Yes, it does.

>> And there's a big problem because now

Parammont money is going down. And along

with that, you

>> got a lot of problems. But go ahead.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. In this particular sector, right?

And then you have legacy media with CBS,

right? And so if all the fees and

everything that are charged um like the

the carriage fees, if they can't get the

money they need from the cable networks

because they're getting, you know,

messed up um or from Fox, whatever it

may be, that's more problems for them

and that's all driven and impact sports

rights fees.

>> Right. Right. And then that's the golden

goose at this point.

>> That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean like

we just

>> have to go up prices.

>> They don't have to go up. No, not at

all. Like when I um first bought the

Mavs in 2000, my the value of my

franchise actually went down the first

10 years.

>> What What did you buy it for? What did

you buy?

>> 285

>> million.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Wow. That's cheap. Doesn't it feel

cheap?

>> Looks cheap now. Yeah.

>> All right, moving on. Let's talk about

this idea you find insane. You This is

your rant period of the show. California

voters will consider a proposed one-time

5% tax on billionaires this month. A

measure backed by Representative Roana.

One uh big question is how founders

whose wealth is tied up in a company

stock would pay the tax without selling

shares kind of suggest the state could

provide loans in exchange for shares but

the terms are not that are long but not

infinite. You call the idea I think the

word is insane the technical term

arguing the state would be essentially

lending billionaires money so they could

give it right back as taxes. I have to

agree with you on this one and I I have

different thoughts on the bill. I think

people should pay more taxes who are

wealthier as you know.

Um, but tell me more about your concerns

and and where this is, you know, Sergey

Brin's, you know, busting the bank

trying to stop this thing. It may it'll

it'll ultimately it probably will pass

would be my guess is is my guess. But I

don't know.

>> I mean, I could tell you at a base like

my my daughter just graduated from

college and she was asking about living

in LA. I'm like, you can't afford it,

right? The taxes are insane. But going

back just to the billionaire stuff,

right? People don't realize that a

billionaire doesn't mean you have a

billion dollars in liquid assets.

Chances [snorts] are you might have 5%

if you're lucky.

>> Rest is in stock is what you're saying.

>> Or and it might be in non not publicly

available stock. It might be an illlquid

asset that you can't sell

>> which is why they borrow against it all

the time.

>> Correct.

>> Yeah. If they're able to. It's more

recent that you're even able to borrow

against private stock. Right. But even

then there's so many things that can

work against you, you know, and you and

particularly now companies aren't going

as public as much as they used to. Like

it's a big deal for SpaceX. It's a big

deal for Open AI. It's a big deal if

Anthropic goes public, right? all these

other AI companies in particular based

in California that are raising you know

money at 10 billion dollars at more

those guys might I mean like if I'm

investing in one of those I don't want

the money going right into the pockets

of the the founders right you can take a

little bit but if you're let's just say

to make it easy numbers if you have a

company that's valued at $10 billion and

you have three founders that each own

10% % they're billionaires by the state

of California's definition. The chances

of them having $50 million in cash are

zero.

Zero. So now all of a sudden what Ro

wanted to do, and I like Ro, we get

along great. I respect them. Um I think

his heart's in the right place, but he's

a politician first, right? And so the

idea that hey Carrie, you just did this

AI thing and you did a company valued at

10 billion. You own your 10%. You are a

billionaire, Carrie. I know you don't

have 50 million or anywhere near it, and

you don't have liquidity at all. So, I'm

going to loan against your shares in a

nonreourse deal, right? And we'll give

you that $50 million so you can give it

right back to us. And if you can't pay

us in the future, we'll just have we'll

just keep the shares of your stock.

Well, what does not pay actually mean?

You've seen many tech companies who have

grown grown profits, right? Added

thousands of employees, right? Um paid

who knows how much in taxes,

particularly in the state of California,

you know, just benefited the communities

and the founders don't have $50 million.

>> So what what tell tell me about this

tax, how you're feeling about it.

>> I think it's ridiculous. I think it's

going to cost them more. They'll say,

and look, people say, "Well, you're a

billionaire, right?" Well, look, you're

already getting people moving. You're

getting companies moving. So, they said

that they would raise 20 million because

you can delay it, right? You don't have

to pay it all at once. Um, the estimate

amount that I read when I was looking

into all that stuff was $20 billion a

year. And 90% of that was going to go to

medical for to medical, right, to make

up for the money that was lost in the

Medicaid um need to work stuff, right?

And then 10% for education and like.

Well, you have to do the math. Could you

lose if the average job pays $100,000

before benefits, right? Could you lose

$200,000 jobs a year? The answer is yes.

You could be cutting off your nose to

sllight your face.

>> So, how would you do this? Because

people, you know, there's this I mean,

the polling is very clear with

>> Oh, no. Everybody wants my money and you

know, unfortunately, usually they say

they'll eat me last, right? And

[clears throat] so, and I get it.

>> You are the favorite billionaire.

Although you would be delicious, I will

say compared to many of them. I already

know.

>> Yeah. Elon would be

>> gy. Go ahead. [laughter]

>> I mean, the obvious answer, you spend

less, right? Right. But,

>> you know, the reality is California

doesn't have a lot of re leeway to raise

taxes. You know, they they already

charge a lot on I think they're they

already charge on capital gains. They

charge the same amount as ordinary

income, you know, and I forget and

there's I forget which tax was at 13.3%.

But they already get you coming and

going. And so if those um

in terms of where you can probably raise

some additional money is maybe, you

know, stock buybacks. I'm not a big fan

of stock buybacks. I think it's

financial engineering. The federal

government always taxes some. Maybe the

states can do a little bit there. That's

not going to raise$20 billion dollars

though. Um, you can tax on some of the

loans on public companies or you can

make it easier for people to go public.

Start, you know, make working with the

SEC doing whatever you can. And I don't

I don't have an answer here. Making it

easier to go public, making it easier to

sell shares of stock so that you have an

actual event where they would pay

capital gains tax because your capital

gains tax is already damn high. So, what

about an alternative minimum tax that

like Scott has?

>> I don't have a problem with that either.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the

Warren Buffett thing, right? Because it

used to be all the time. I mean, I

remember when I started Micro Solutions

that I had to pay money on retained um

earnings. Like if I kept too much money

in the bank, I had to pay taxes on it.

And I was like, "Okay, whatever. That's

the law. I'm just going to keep on

running my company." That's the way most

entrepreneurs think. if you made it so

that you had to um pay an alternate

minimum tax and preferably at the

federal level as opposed to the state

level, then you know you would get more

tax and then hopefully whoever comes in

next, we could reimburse or we could

change those Medicaid um work laws so

that everybody who deserved Medicaid got

it. And so that even with Medicaid and I

think at medical too if your assets

increase for whatever reason you get a

job they don't immediately take it back

to to rec recapture the Medicaid money.

You know there's so many ways that you

can go about an alternative of tax is as

good as any. Mhm. And so what do you

make when you consider the anger and the

clear, you know, anti I just saw yet

another poll today around AI around meta

the meta case in Oakland, California

happening right now. The data centers

I've been doing show after we I've been

talking about this for I I went in to

visit some Facebook people and they

asked me what I thought. I said, "People

hate you." And they're like, "Oh yeah,

but what do you think?" I go, "People

hate you." I was like, "It's" And I

said, "In data centers, it's just a

proxy for that." And actually wrote a

tweet about that. I tweeted exactly

that.

>> I know you did. And I was like, they

hate you and well, some of them can be

good. I said, but many of them aren't.

And you really are treating these people

like

>> And I think Facebook is the worst of the

worst.

>> Well, Elon with the gas smeing things in

in Memphis didn't help matters. Or your

friend Kevin. Or your friend Kevin.

>> Kevin just wants to make money.

>> Yeah. Really? I had no idea.

>> No idea. Right. But let's talk about

Meta. And I'll give you this is my

Michigan-like experience with Meta.

>> Okay. Every single week I get emails

from little old men and ladies saying,

"Will my cure for diabetes work?"

Or, "I just ordered your cure for

diabetes for $294."

>> Oh, no.

>> And I'm like, I already know the answer

now, which is they're using an AI

version of me. And Meta allows it. It's

always on Facebook, right? where I come

in and I say and I've seen it and I've

sent it to them and I said, "Look, you

know, we'll cure diabetes, whatever, da

da da da da." And then when you read the

fine print all the way at the bottom,

this is just an AI representation of

Mark Cuban. It's not real. This is for

entertainment purposes always. And to

Facebook, that's good enough.

Facebook knows that it's

Facebook knows the little old ladies are

getting ripped off, right? And the point

is that defines the culture of the

organization. If you're willing to rip

off little old if your grandparents,

your grandparents, right? And that's

acceptable. Every all that kind of

is acceptable top to bottom in

your organization. It's just like

healthcare. They do the same

right?

>> I was just recently meeting with a bunch

of publishers who are worried about

audio piracy of books. you know, they

they're doing pretty well with

audiobooks and actually it's a good

strong business, but you know, they get

pirated all the time and YouTube is the

culprit for the most part here and

people do AI now AI versions of books

and of all kinds of books, everybody's

books and then

>> Oh, yeah. I see books about me that are

just AI.

>> Well, that's that's also books

generated. That's Amazon does that. But

but but YouTube does AI audio piracy.

But see, that's the whole thing that

this is where AI and data centers truly

are the bad guys because they are so

expensive, right? They're going through

every bit of cash that they have.

They're having to borrow on top. So, in

the mindset is the bigger picture, this

is the greater good, right? Whatever it

takes. And so, and I tweeted about this

too. I forget the exact example, but it

used to be with Google Adwords that when

you asked for an exact match for um your

Adword, you got an exact match, right?

Now, it's an approxima approximization,

right? And also, it used to be that

there was a set price. Now, the price

varies, but it always goes up, right?

Whatever the specific details are,

they're gaming the system. It's

financial engineering to try to make up

all that money,

>> which they need to do. Yeah. And so

that's the, you know, the the ends

justify the the means, right? And that's

just wrong. Look, I'm not anti-data

center. I literally had an office right

above my Mavs um office. The practice

facility was right next to an IBM soft

layer data center, you know, and so now

it it was no big deal to me, but it

wasn't an AI data center, at least not

yet. Right.

>> So getting back to that idea of this

taxes, it's all it's all

>> Yes, of course. So what to do?

>> So leadership,

honesty, right? You things that we

lacked, right? And again, I'm not going

to talk about the president. We all, but

I I'll use Medicare for all as an

example because since we're talking

healthcare, like there was that study, I

don't know if you saw it, that said

Medicare for all would save $1 trillion.

Sounds great, right? until you look at

the fine print and see all the

references that they used. Right? So

they I looked at these numbers to get to

a trillion and one of the numbers was

$265 billion that elim and it was

elimination of fraud. I'm like $265

billion that's like that's a big number.

>> Elon tried it seemed I think he didn't

work at all. So I go down to the

footnotes and I'm like, "Okay, there's

this article that was written in 2003

about Taiwan and their conversion to

universal healthcare." I'm like, "Okay,

so what happened?" Well, Taiwan went

from a paper system basically um and a

market driven system to a transition to

universal healthcare. It was a disaster

the first couple years. But there was

this article written that said they

saved 8% on waste. So what does the do

the authors of this article

>> extrapolate? They extrapolate

>> they extrapolate from Taiwan from 1995 a

paperbased system and they applied it to

the US budget right and so they get you

know 3 trillion times 8% you know and it

gets near 265 billion. That is the

problem. You've got something that

everybody wants.

Like if if we walked out there and we

said it's a dollar a month to give

health care for each person. Dollar a

month per person. Everybody like, "Yeah,

let's go. Republicans before it,

everybody before it, right? But we're

not trying to figure out a solution,

right? We don't know what those costs

are. A lot of the reasons we talked

about earlier, but you can't lie about

it. you have to put together a plan that

gets you from here to there. Another

thing that they did was they said if we

changed the um what we pay the best

hospitals in the country, right, to

Medicare rates, they would make up the

losses in revenue by the reduction in

administrative costs. That's the biggest

bunch of horseshit. If you walk into a

really nice hospital, right, it's

designed to be a really nice hospital.

It's got all the machines that go ping

the really, really expensive stuff,

right? And they've got the most

expensive doctors. If you start paying

doctors in those hospitals Medicare

rates, you know what they're going to

do? They're they're going to opt out.

They're not going to be available to

anybody on Medicare, right? And the

hospitals are going to opt out. But in

both Bernie's and Representative Jipal's

Medicare for all, right? like in this

article, in this study, they just

accepted that as fact. There's just no

way. And then the creme de la creme in

both of those Medicare for all um um

legislations that were proposed,

section 4 administration,

at the discretion of the Secretary of

Health and Human Services, they had the

option to figure out everything.

Basically, it's a politically

appointed position. How would it be

going right now, right? Yes, we'd all

have measles. Measles for everybody and

then salmon

>> disaster. And yet they just make it seem

like everything is perfect. That in the

case of the

>> I don't I I'm going to push back. I

don't think they think it's perfect.

It's like a sentiment of people are

tired of what you talked about at the

top, right?

>> Fix the problem.

>> Yeah. Well,

>> fix the problem. Don't come up.

>> We may need an entirely new system.

>> Yes, we do.

>> Which actually Trump gives us an

opportunity. If he can't build that

ballroom, maybe we do need a ballroom. a

smaller one. Maybe we do need we do not

need those shiny horses. I could tell

you.

>> But you get the point on all this,

right?

>> I I see your point. All right.

>> Right. Like come up with a plan so we

can actually solve these problems

instead of throwing out

>> Well, it's gets thrown because

has been thrown. But anyway,

let's go on a quick break. We'll be

right back.

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Mark, we're back. Speaking of having a

plan, Scott and I have talked a lot over

the years about who we want to run for

president, and one name keeps coming up.

Let's listen to a clip.

>> By the way, who's going to be the next

president? Cuz according to AP, you get

to decide.

>> I'd rather have Mark Cuban. I vote for

Cuban.

>> He's clearly positioning himself for a

run. And I hope he runs.

>> I want Cubes.

>> He's super smart, super impressive guy

and a decent man.

>> I would pick Mark Cuban, honestly. I

would I would like that cuz I'd get to

go to the Lincoln bedroom largely.

That's my goal. [laughter]

Um, I get a lot of for saying that,

by the way,

>> but I really care. Um, you I have

actually written saying you should run.

I have I we text all we have very funny

texts. Um, and you have resisted and I I

it's the one thing I'm asked more than

anything else, you know, because I've

been interviewing all these different

possible candidates for Democrats. I'm

going to move to the Republicans soon.

It's hard right now. They don't want to

talk about it until Trump is out of the

picture in some in a a more substantive

way. Um, talk about why you don't want

to run. Explain for people so I don't

have to anymore.

>> Because everything is

there's it's it's all laws, right? You

got to everything. I think like an

entrepreneur,

right? If I see like we're just talking

about Medicare for all. I want universal

healthcare in some form or fashion,

right? We need to make sure that

everybody in this country has a right

and gets care healthcare that they need.

it would help the economy yada yada all

the second and third order effects are

enormous right and so I if I was

president you would think well you could

go I've talked to people at HHS CMS

there is no from here to there and I've

talked to you know about the breakup big

medicine bill you there's not one single

senator that wants to support it other

than those two same with the the

legislation you know I've talked to

Bernie's people about how do we change

this they whether I was president or not

that ain't going to change. Their

self-interest stays the same. Whereas,

as an entrepreneur, I can do things like

cost plus drugs, cost plus wellness, all

the other things that we're working on

that allow me to have an impact. I can

go and bang on the door of a CEO and

call him a or her a to their

face. And actually, in

>> You can do that as president now. You

can call people morons.

>> Oh, yeah, you could. But then I got to

kiss the babies. I got to do all the

stuff. I got to worry about stuff that

maybe I'm not the best person, you know,

or most qualified towards. I have to

have temperament which I don't have. I

have to have patience which I don't

have.

>> Allowed now. Just so you know.

>> Yeah, it's allowed but doesn't make it

right.

>> Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Although

I I doubt you'll go down those roads. Um

but but the idea is you're more

effective outside than inside.

>> Yes, I can do things right. I can create

change. I truly believe I'm going to

change healthcare. I'm posit Yes. I've

already had a big impact. You know, I've

seen things change. I've seen people

come every day. I hear about people like

you mentioned, you're using it, right?

Cosplas drugs. I mean, every day I hear

stories.

>> Yeah. We had somebody who just um we

helped she she literally got a heart

transplant and then her new insurance

plan wouldn't pay for the rejection

medications and they came to us and we

fixed it. We're working with a family

from Australia now who can't get photon

radiation because they don't have it in

Australia yet. and we're connecting them

with a variety of different doctors

through cost plus wellness and they'll

be able to do it and save their child

hopefully. And so those are things I can

do. Bam bam bam bam bam as opposed to

okay Mark on your calendar today is a

meeting with Benjamin Netanyahu who

>> the

>> you would handle him well. I feel I feel

>> Yeah. I mean the guy who put a target on

every Jew in the world's back, right?

>> Yes. Yes. Him. That's him. Yes. See?

Exactly. See, see, you're already doing

it.

>> I don't have the temperament or patience

for it. Really mean it.

>> Really means it.

>> No, look, I'm happy to help. I'm happy

to help.

>> You should run as a Republican. That

would them up.

>> Oh, no. That's what if I was going to

run, that's what I would do. I can't win

as a Democrat. Not with the DSAs and all

that there, right? And oh, by the

way, speaking of Medicare for all, I

read Al Sai's book on Medicare for all.

>> It's not bad. He has a lot in common

with Trump on some of his positions on

drugs. Um, but you know, it wasn't a bad

book. But in any event, I think people

just look for things that are not what

is is they're looking for something

different.

>> Right. Right. Yep.

>> Right.

>> Went from the Tea Party to, you know,

you know, change it. Hope and change.

Tea Party, Trump, not Trump, J6, now

DSA, anything that's different. It's

just like what people said to me about

Trump. Trump won. I I had a buddy I

played basketball with and I'm like, I

know this guy, yada yada yada. He's

like, "Let me just tell you something.

I've been voting for politicians my

entire life. You know what they've done

for me? Nothing. Why would I vote for a

politician again? I've been voting for

Democrats my entire life. You know what

they've done for me?"

>> Right. All right. So then what are you

going to do? Run as a Republican. That

would be good.

>> Oh, that would be fun though. It would

be Would you just please do it just for

fun?

>> Katie Vance's head would blow off.

>> Yeah. And the competitive side of me

likes that part, but doesn't like the

governing part at all. Or I can run it

as an independent. I think running as an

independent would have would be the

first time like if I ran at it as an

independent, um I think I'd have a shot.

I'm not saying I would win because most

people are independents now.

>> See, you're think See, part of you is

thinking of it. I can feel it, Mark.

Come on.

>> No, of course I've thought about it

because you bring it up. Do it for me.

Do it for me. Anyway,

>> I'll tell you what. when they when they

auction off a night in the Lincoln

bedroom, I'll buy it for you.

>> Oh, thank you so much. As long as

Trump's not there, cuz it was a little

[laughter] creepy, honestly. Anyway, one

more [clears throat] quick break. We'll

be back for predictions.

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Taxes and fees applied.

>> Okay, Mark, let's hear a prediction.

>> James Tallerico, let's go.

>> Oh, okay. Tell me.

>> Yeah, I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan.

>> I know you are.

>> Um, I think he's honest. He's

trustworthy. He cares. Um, he'll do the

right thing as opposed to the

politically expedient thing. Um, I think

he truly wants to change, you know,

bring back reality to politics and I I I

think he's got a real chance to win.

>> Yeah. So, you really do believe that? I

mean, the polls are pretty good in his

favor.

>> Yeah. You can't tell on polls anymore,

but

>> That's right. You can't,

>> you know, but he's going into red areas.

He's going into red areas and drawing

big crowds.

>> Big crowds. And And what would you say

to some of those voters who I mean,

first of all, Ken Paxton seems like

literally a villain. It's just

everything he does seems awful.

>> I'm not a fan. Yeah.

>> No, I don't think many people are. But

how do you what do you say then to those

red voters?

>> Do what's best for the state of Texas.

Do what's best for your your wallet. Do

what's best for you. Right. There's

nobody in the same thing my my buddy who

voted for Trump in 2016. I say the same

thing to all these voters. You've been

voting for Republicans all these years.

What have they done for you

>> in Texas? Yeah. Now, it's time for

somebody who is going to literally be

able to sit with you at the dinner table

and discuss your budget and be able to

relate to it and hopefully, you know,

with help from folks like me, go talk to

grocery stores, go talk to