So, I was lucky enough to be invited to

Jubilee's surrounded program as a

psychiatrist engaging with 20 people

with depression. So, a lot of people

will say like, I don't understand the

point of therapy because what good is

talking about my feelings, right? How

does that help? And I actually agree. I

think just going to a place once a week

and blabbing about how your life sucks

is not super helpful. There are some

cases of something called supportive

psychotherapy, which it can be helpful.

But I think what we can do today by kind

of doing a playby-play analysis of the

Jubilee video, specifically the

conversation with a gentleman named

Lamar, is we can see what the goal of

therapy is. And we can see a little bit

of it in action. Okay? So, not that I'm

Lamar's psychiatrist, but we can sort of

see like what we try to do as

therapists. and I want to show y'all how

therapy is literally so much more than

talking about your feelings. So, let's

get started. For me, I can't speak as to

everybody's journey of where they've

been in life, but as far as for me, I

feel like this is like the conclusion. A

little bit of background on me. I'm a

Marine, so I've been in major conflicts.

I've trained people for conflicts and

everything.

>> First thing is already is like this is

the conclusion. These are his opening

words. There is already a sentiment of

this is over and nothing can change. And

I want y'all to pay attention to that

theme in his words. So another thing

about this video is I'm not going to

just lay things out. I'm going to put

questions and hypotheses to you. So for

y'all to try to do the thinking, okay?

So pay attention to this theme.

>> I only had a week on how to adjust to

being a civilian again. After that week,

I started sleeping in the closet for 6

months.

>> So, this is really severe. I've worked

with dozens, if not hundreds of veterans

over the course of my career, and very

few of them end up sleeping in the

closet for 6 months. There are some

people who are severely impaired. I'm

not going to even say ill, but their

capability to live a normal life is

severely impacted. that I would come

back to opportunities, jobs. I came back

to a park bench. So, I feel like I was

kind of like left behind, you know?

>> Well, you were

>> I was left behind.

>> So, this is another really common

experience for veterans. Like, I want

y'all to imagine this for a moment.

You're 22 years old or maybe you're 18.

You enlist in the army. You're on a tour

of duty for eight years. So, you come

back at the age of 26. So you leave the

regular world. You go live a completely

different life for eight years and then

you come back. The people that you knew

have moved on. People have gone to

college. They've started careers.

They've gotten married. And now you are

just coming back and you're kind of

starting over at the age of 26.

>> I've accepted everything that I've done

as far as like my career over there and

it haunts me a lot of things, you know.

It's taken over my life. When I got out,

it feels like it's a starter package. I

would talk to mental health specialists.

They would hear the problem and then

it's like they put you in a category and

be like, "All right, here's your

trazadone. Here's your alzapene. Here's

your go out the door. Here you go."

>> So, he comes back and it's hard enough

if you've like missed eight years,

right? The girl that you were crushing

on is now divorced with two kids. So,

like what do you do about that? Okay.

But then he comes back and he has

trouble because we all know that

veterans have trouble. And then this is

really important. This is another theme

that I want y'all to pay attention to.

He gets categorized. He gets bucketed.

And then this too, one one thing we do

as psychiatrists. So if you guys want to

learn how to be really good with people,

okay?

You can't just pay attention to their

words. You have to pay attention to the

themes. You also need to pay attention

to the facial expressions and body

language. He does this. They're done

with him. It's over. There's a sense of

what does this mean? Right? What does

this mean? This is conclusion. This is

finished. Okay. If

>> I tell you that doesn't work, then it's

it was given to me like I was the

problem. It almost seems like I was

getting penalized for the medication not

working.

>> Absolutely. Right. So, I'm getting the

sense that you sort of got judged that

you were supposed to be a certain way.

You were supposed to respond. You're

supposed to get better and you didn't

get better.

>> No.

>> And then they they label you, they

bucket you, they put you on on this

track. It almost feels like

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. So, what's what's that like for

you?

>> Well, that's why I say it feels like a

conclusion cuz after that doesn't work,

my my only question is what's next?

>> None of the treatments are working. And

when you are struggling with a problem

and none of the treatments are working,

what do you imagine is the feeling that

you get right? What each failure does

what to him? It's not just that the

illness doesn't improve. There is a

story being crafted here of failure

number one, failure number two, failure

number three, failure number four that

he feels blamed for. clearly

something is left over from your time in

the Marines. And then when you came

back, they said, "Okay, for people who

aren't able to integrate, take tradone,

take Loxipine, and then if you don't get

better, then do this, then do this, then

do this, then do this, and you're a guy

who tried it all." So this is a really

important technique. So he's given me

all of this information, and I am

basically repeating it back to him. This

is called reflective listening. I heard

his story, right? And I'm not trying to

convince him or anything like that. I

heard his story and I just put it back

to him. And I want you guys to pay

attention to his face and think for a

moment about what are you guys reading

from these facial expressions. And if I

were to tell you, Lamar, there is

something that will help you. How would

you receive that?

>> Okay, so now comes a really important

thing. This is what we do in therapy.

I've reflectively listened to him,

right? I've said this is what happened

to you. If I told you something would

help, how would it how would you

respond? I'm not even saying, hey, I

think something can help. I do think

something can help, but I'm not going to

say that. What we want to do is

understand where he is. And then he

says, I would have to categorize you.

Now, we're getting somewhere. So, this

is really important to understand. He

got bucketed. And what does he do in

turn? He buckets us. You're just like

all of the other psychiatrists who say

something will help, something will

help, something will help, something

will help. So now we have a challenge. I

started Healthy Gamer to help people,

particularly my people, who were often

left behind by the mental health system.

As we've grown Healthy Gamer, we have

also started working with partners to

help us keep things affordable. And

that's why I want to tell you about

Rebound. Rebound provides specialized

virtual trauma treatment with expertly

trained therapists. It was founded by a

team of survivors and psychologists who

know firsthand how difficult it can be

to live in survival mode [music] and who

believe that everyone deserves to heal

from trauma. This is very different from

standard talk therapy. It's a highly

structured treatment designed to safely

and effectively [music] help your brain

reprocess past trauma so you can release

what you've been carrying. You're

supported throughout the process by a

team of survivor advocates, many of whom

have lived experience themselves. So

you're never alone throughout the

process. Rebound is available in all 50

states and they accept many leading

insurance plans like Etna, many Blue

Cross Blue Shield plans and more. To see

if specialized trauma treatment could be

the right next step for you. Head to

hellorebound.com/halthygamer

where you can check your insurance, book

a free call with one of our care

specialists and find out more. That's

hellbound.com/halthygamer

and the link is in the description

below. So here is someone who has been

bucketed, treated unfairly, has severe

problems. He was overseas for overseas

for eight years. Reminds me of this like

movie Interstellar where like you're

time traveling and then you come back

and your daughter is like older than you

are. Like you've been you've been

unplugged from life and you come back

and you have all kinds of autonomic

problems and things like that and

everyone tells you this is this is going

to work and nothing works. So, how do

you help this person who the theme here

is game's over? He's going to bucket us.

And when I'm working with someone who is

so sure about something, it's not just

talking about our feelings. A big part

of the work that we're trying to do is

to make people less rigid. Can we get

them to be curious? Can we get them to

look at things in a different way? But

that is not easy to do. We can't present

them with evidence because he's just

going to knock it down. But let's keep

watching.

>> So, now we have a different kind of

problem. Okay,

>> which is that you have learned that

something won't work.

>> I think I was taught that something

would work.

>> The reason people can't fix one problem

is because they have an adaptation to

that problem that complicates things. So

this is a scenario where it's like okay

not like he showed up tried thing one

tried thing two tried thing three tried

thing four but once you develop

hopelessness once you think things are

over it becomes really hard to try again

right people are really burnt out so now

I have two goals in order to get them to

even try something I have to disable the

hopelessness on top the reason nothing

is working is because I don't think

anyone has really understood what you

struggle with this is why patients stay

stuck because they have subconscious

patterns that create the problems that

they deal with day in and day out. So I

tell them, hey, I think the problem is

that no one has understood you. I think

the problem is that you got bucketed and

anything that we do after you get

bucketed isn't going to work because

nothing we've done after you got

bucketed works, right? That's the data

you're giving me, I'm just giving it

back to you. Then what's his answer? So

now what? What do I do? What do I do?

What's the answer? What's the solution?

Right? And I don't know if this makes

sense, but the whole problem is that

someone kept on giving you solutions. So

if I say the solution is do this, it's

game over. I'm KO'ed. I'm knocked out.

So I'm not going to do that.

>> So where do we go from here?

>> We understand you, man. Now he starts

talking again, right? So look at his

facial expression from So what's the

solution to now? And and watch he was

swinging a KO like it's a KO punch. What

do I do? But I don't want to take it. I

want to get him to keep talking. I don't

want him to quit. I don't want him to

give into the hopelessness.

>> My job description changed from heavy

mechanics and helicopters to now I'm 03

infantry, heavy machine gunner. Then I

switch again to intel. Now I'm doing

interrogations throughout the night.

>> Now he's sharing. I say, what do we do?

We understand you, right? And he kind of

pushes back. Okay, now that if we

understand you, then what? Then what?

Then what? But what is he doing? We're

starting to understand him. I don't

think anyone can help you unless we

understand the ways in which you're

broken. You get me, man? We can't.

There's no way. People sort of labeling

you and sort of saying, oh, like

Loxipene is going to fix this and

Trazadone is going to fix this. That

doesn't even begin to touch the surface.

So, now I'm using an interesting

technique, which is I'm zeroing in on my

point again. I'm kind of driving, hey,

we can't fix this unless we understand

you. And then I'm using examples that

he's used, right? People have tried that

before. I'm suggesting a solution, but

I'm pointing out to him at the same time

that when people didn't try to

understand you, it didn't work out.

>> But to understand on on that surface

level, I don't think I've came across

that.

>> I believe you, man.

>> Yeah. But I'm saying like even though

you believe me and all this, what does

it do for me?

>> He's frustrated. He's like, man, this

guy like so what? What do I do? What do

I do? And this is another thing that we

do in therapy is like when people get

frustrated, we have to handle it in a

particular way. And what I notice is

that he says, "I go back, right? So

you're this guy, this [ __ ] guy on

this TV show we're on and now I go back

to my life." And then I pick up on

something else which we've kind of

already noticed a little bit of is

isolation, which is going to be another

important theme to pay attention to.

Here's my experience. I've worked with

I've done a lot of work with veterans.

First thing that I learned is y'all

don't come back the same. each and every

one of you comes back a little bit

different. So now I'm doing something

kind of interesting. I'm not going to

take the bait when he says, "What do I

do? How does this help me?" Not going to

take the bait. Instead, what I'm going

to do is is share, right? Share a little

bit about what his situation is like.

I'm going to try to speak his truth.

Second thing is, I don't know that

there's anything that I can do or anyone

else can do that will actually help you.

So, this is a weird thing to say, right?

I don't know if there's any way that I

can help you. And I want you guys to pay

attention to his face. What I'm hearing

is that people haven't really understood

you and that you've been doing this

alone. Watch the facial expression,

right? There's changes. What are you

guys seeing? If I take my car to the the

shop and no one understands what's wrong

with it and people start fixing it,

that's what people have been doing with

you.

>> Yeah.

>> They've been saying, "Hey man, this is

going to work. Hey man, this is going to

work. Hey, man, this is going to work."

Now, as I say this to you, what are you

feeling, Lamar? I see you shaking.

I'm shaking cuz like I said after

hearing the same thing it it feels

repetitive. Feels like I'm in a loop.

Like it just feels like a loop.

>> Okay. So now he's smiling. But what kind

of smile is it? Can you guys tell

>> what what's it like to be stuck in this

loop?

>> Every every day I I feel like

might be my last. Like you know what I

mean?

>> Right. So now there's emotion coming to

the surface and now something

interesting happens. Right. He says I

feel like this might be my last. It's

not what he's saying, it's his attitude

towards speech. This is what we do. So

this guy struggles every day with my

guess. I don't know. Chronic suicidality

is my guess. He's like every day could

be my last. But if I gave him an answer

at any point, we never would have gotten

here. So, now we're getting to something

important, which is like as I speak to

him about, you know, how potentially

doomed he is and I may not be able to

help him and how things are so hard.

Anxiety comes to the surface, he gets

frustrated. He says, I'm in a loop and

by the way, any moment could be my last.

So, when he shares this emotion, my play

is going to be once again, let's signal

to him that we heard.

>> Lamar, I'm I'm I'm grateful to you.

Yeah. Um, and and I know it sounds kind

of weird. I I can see that you're really

struggling. I can see that every day, on

the one hand, it feels inevitable, and

on the other hand, it feels like one day

you're going to be off the loop and

you're never going to come back, right?

>> Feels that way. And I think the

beautiful thing about this, and I know

it sounds weird to call it beautiful, is

it blows my mind how many people

feel the way that you do. There are a

lot of people out there that have come

back from war, have been cops, have been

firefighters, and when they're when they

look at you, when they see you, I think

what they see is someone who is like

them, that they're not alone in this

world.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don't know if if we can fix you,

man, but I certainly know that if you're

alone, it's going to be way harder.

>> This is my anxiety rising sometimes.

>> It's okay.

>> All right. So, this is tough. We're

bringing a lot of stuff up. Let's see

what happens next. in my opinion that

most therapists or psychiatrists don't

truly believe in the ways in which to

help. It's almost like you go to school

long enough for something that you feel

like you can't turn around now. Like

you've been in it, so let me just go

forward and let me just

>> play the game almost. You know, I hate

to

>> put stuff the way I think it, but it's

like a game is just how I feel. But um

I've heard what you've told others and

it's some things that I find to be quite

out there. So he smiled earlier but how

is the smile now? Is this a defensive

smile? The other thing is, this is

another thing that happens a lot, right?

This is why it's hard. I don't think

he's most people are not aware. This is

what we see in therapy is now he's

saying, "Look, I'm coming to a

psychiatrist and I'm saying, I think

y'all delude yourselves into believing

stuff can work, right?" And he knows

it's like kind of a disrespectful thing

to say to someone's face. Your

profession, y'all are all delusional,

bro. So, once again, there's a there's a

certain if I'm not careful, I'll fall

into this trap. Out of everyone that

you've spoken to today, do you truly

feel as if you've helped anybody at all?

>> Do I feel as if I've helped?

>> Now, something interesting has happened.

He used to be closed off and now he's

curious, right? Have you helped?

And my answer is this. I don't know.

So, one of the key things I've learned

in my life, Lamar, is to not trust what

I feel, to act independently of what I

feel.

>> What do you do with those who just seem

like they can't find a way out?

>> Now, he's asking, "But what about me?

What about me?" You know, what do you

what do you do for the people who are

hopeless? Right? So, he's really looking

for answer, guidance. Now, he has asked

me three or four times, I think it's the

fourth time, he said, "What should I do?

What do we do? What do we do?" So once

again, what we're trying to do is he has

this idea of what psychiatry is. They

have all the answers and none of them

work. And one of the key things as a

therapist is often times and we do have

answers, but someone is not ready to

hear them. When we have an idea of

what's right, we are skilled at getting

you to see it. Or it's not even see our

solution. We are skilled at getting you

to o be a little bit more open-minded.

Look at your own beliefs, question them.

Ultimately, the right answer comes from

you. And then I'm going to offer

something else, which is like now that

he's open-minded, now that he's asking a

question, I'm going to plant a seed of

an answer. So, one of the challenges

that I have is I don't know when to give

up on a patient. Let's say that we start

working together and I work with you for

2 years and you don't get better at all.

>> Mhm.

>> Do [clears throat] I give up at that

point or is 3 years, maybe three years

could do it? There's a conversation

we'll have which is like okay therapy

does not work psychiatry does not help

you what now what are we going to do are

you willing to not give up with me

>> I guess up to a certain point but like I

said we just keep on hitting our head

against the wall then it's like at what

point is it is it like I don't know what

words to use but at what point is it

stupid like

>> so now this is a really great

interaction right cuz he's saying like

well what what do you can can you help

people who are unhelpable like what

about the hopeless people and then I say

and now I do something kind of

interesting here so when he's faced with

this question I put a question to him

right and what I'm trying to do is get

him to think about it cuz if I say yes I

can help people a couple of things will

happen one is he'll be like he'll be

like okay sure you can help people but

you can't help me you guys can y'all

predict that right that's what he would

have said so instead I say you know it's

an interesting question here's what I

struggle with is I don't know when to

stop if you do things for 2 years and

Then like what if it takes three? Like

should I quit at two? But what if things

work at three? So we're trying to enter

the realm of curiosity. And then there's

also ve something very very subtle in

his answer. One word that he uses that

he has never used before in this

conversation and that word is critical

to the efficacy of therapy. And the word

just for the editors is we. Right. So

now he's saying we instead of I.

>> Yeah. So, so like I said, I've I've had

three patients in my career, okay? And

I've seen somewhere between probably 500

and a thousand people that I really

don't believe I've been able to help.

Those are the three that I tried

everything that I knew and learned a

bunch of other stuff. So, he's kind of

skeptical. He's like, "Look, can you

really help people?" And I'll say,

"Look, there are three people that I've

been unable to help." And I'm giving him

the option of being number four. Maybe

you're in that category of unhelpable

people. Those people absolutely exist.

See, the nature of depression is that

even if you're getting better, you won't

notice it. So, this is another point

where now I'm planting another seed.

This is a function of jubilee once

again. Like, not their problem or

anything like that, but if this if Lamar

were my patient, I would not have gone

down this road at this point because

he's not ready for this. But also in

therapy, a big part of what we want to

do is when someone is open-minded, you

have a chance to plant a seed. And

that's basically and and when I'm on

Jubilee, I'm not just talking to Lamar.

In the back of my mind, what I'm talking

to is everyone who is in Lamar's

situation. I I I had a patient who came

into my office once, a couple years in,

>> and he said, "Dr. K, I'm just as bad as

when I showed up." And then I asked him,

I said, "Well, how's your work going?"

Because they had struggle trouble with

work. And they said, "Work's fine now.

I'm not getting in trouble anymore." Um,

they started taking their cholesterol

medication. There were many things in

their life that had improved,

>> but they didn't feel like it had

improved. And then I I told him that

day, I said, you know, I I think you're

not depressed. I think you're unhappy.

And there's a big difference between

those two things. So now I I put the

seed to him, which is, hey, there's a

difference between depression and

unhappiness. And now we're still doing

well because then he responds with,

"Doesn't one lead to the other?" And I

want you all to think about the attitude

there, right? Like pay attention to him

over the last couple of minutes and in

the first time that we talked to him.

So, I'm not providing answers, but he's

asking a lot of questions. That's where

the progress is made.

>> And one of the interesting things is

that if you weren't in therapy, would

you potentially be worse?

>> It's hard to say cuz I've taken therapy

and it feels like,

>> you know what I mean? Like,

>> there is another principle in therapy

that sometimes feel like they people

feel like therapy isn't helping, but the

way in which is they are sinking.

they're on a downward trajectory and the

first sign of therapy working is a

stabilization of the decline. So it goes

like this and then we stabilize and then

we start moving up.

>> It's like a hydro almost like one head

chop one off and two more grow back like

>> and and and so that I I think I think

you're dealing with a a profound sense

of

skepticism. I wouldn't even call it

hopeless, but I I think you've learned

that nothing seems to help.

>> Couple of important things here. One is

I'm kind of talking over him, which is a

bad move, but we have another really

interesting tidbit, which is that he

says it's a hydra. So, now we understand

what his experience is. What's the

experience of fighting the hydra? The

experience of fighting the hydra is you

make progress and you are worse off than

when you started. The more you do, the

worse things get. Now, I want you all to

think for a moment about if someone

believes that the more they do, the

worse off they are. What does their life

look like? What does their future look

like? What does their daytoday existence

look like? The biggest problem that

people have had dealing with you is that

they label you really fast and they

think they know what will help.

>> Yeah, I think so, too. But I've seen too

many people in your situation

>> who have gotten better. And so I

stupidly, foolishly, I know it's dumb. I

choose to keep trying because when I'm

hopeless, I could be wrong. And when I'm

hopeful, I could be wrong, too. So then

the then we're left with one basic

question, which is when we don't know

what's going to work. We don't know is

it going to work? Is it not going to

work? How are you going to respond to

that uncertainty?

>> I don't think there's no direct answer

to any of that. Like I think at this

point I just roll with punches. Like I

just rock with punches at this point.

>> Now I'm trying to frame for him the

fundamental problem that he has to solve

first. We haven't even gotten to why

he's in the closet, you know, for 6

months being fed meals, what his

dayto-day is like, what the hell

happened when he was overseas and doing

interrogation. We haven't touched any of

that. But we've I've framed the

fundamental problem for him is like,

look, there's no way to know what can

work. And he's asked me several times

like what do you do? What in my

situation? What do you do? Can you help

these people? And the fundamental

problem that he has to we have to

grapple with is how are you going to

engage with the problem, right? Not what

is the problem and how to solve it, but

for a hydra, what's the right way to

approach a hydra? Could be hopeless,

could be hopeful. And I want y'all to

pay attention to his face and his

answer.

>> I'm really running off of fumes in this

last little bit of my life. Like, I

truly believe that. So,

>> yeah. I mean, you've been running on

fumes for a long time. Fighting the

hydra empties you of all energy. There's

no way to win. But you keep on fighting.

You get tired, tired, tired. Now I'm

pushing a little bit more than I would

if I was his therapist, right? Where I

say like, but you've been running on

fumes for a long time. And I think y'all

can also understand that basically and

and y'all may have experienced this

where you feel like you're running on

fumes constantly. And then he even says

something really kind of scary, which is

in this last little bit of my life. They

can carry you way farther than you may

have ever realized, which is what's

insane, dude.

>> I think. But see, that's the point. It

used to be

>> I persevered through it. Like no matter

what happens, as long as I'm breathing,

I I keep on going.

>> Even though we're talking about the

bleepness, he's running out of fumes.

Look at his face now. Look at how he's

talking. What's his manner?

>> I done hyped myself up. Hyp up. Hyped

myself up.

>> Doesn't work.

>> Doesn't work no more. It ain't always

rainbows and gum gumdrops. Like,

>> so what we're doing here is is actually

really important because even though

we're talking about the negative, he's

not defensive, right? He's sharing. I'm

I get you, man. I I see what you're

saying. It's It's hard. You know, I

didn't say it's hard. That must be so

hard for you. You don't want to use

Don't use that ever if you're trying to

reflectively listen. It just tunes

people out. But it what he's remember my

my my big issue or my big perception of

him is that he's isolated. He gets

categorized. He gets bucketed. He gets

labeled. How do we fundamentally solve

that problem? We got to get him to open

his mouth. What is your experience like?

Right? And he's sharing. He's sharing.

He's sharing. It's not all rainbows. And

then I try another interesting

technique.

>> When was the last time it was rainbows?

>> Can you even remember?

>> No. No. Actually, like I've been in

survival mode so so long

that when I see something that may

potentially be a happy moment, I I shun

away from that [ __ ] cuz I feel like it's

a a fleeting moment. Like it's not for

me type person.

>> Oh wow. There are absolutely moments in

his life that have been positive. But it

is a really important data point for me

and him to to realize that oh my god

that was so far in the past that I don't

even remember it. It was from a

different era, a different age back when

the world was innocent and Rome was the

largest city in the world. Right? That's

how far it it is away from him. Now if

you think about it practically, I think

that he's had good things happen to him

that he's just not able to access. But

one of the signs of progress in therapy

and one of the kinds of things that we

try to do in therapy is try try to help

you realize that there were rainbows to

access those rainbows to connect to

those rainbows because right now his his

life is all clouds all gray and the work

that we want to do. What does health

look like? It's not just talking about

your feelings. It's helping you see the

rainbows that happen. By the way, when

the storm clouds clear, right? In order

to see a rainbow, we need a lot of water

vapor or we need rain and we need

sunshine. So rainbow here is a beautiful

analogy actually. And the work is to

help people to see the positive in their

life. This is not gaslighting. This is a

removal of cognitive bias. But that

takes time. And once people are able to

genuinely see the good in life, their

whole attitude changes. But we run into

a really interesting problem.

>> Yeah. I'm not going to lie. even if

there's a fleeting moment of happiness,

you turn away from it.

>> I turn away from it because I I've been

dealt shitty hands. You know what I

mean? Like when the sky starts to open

up, the sun comes out, I'm looking at

like, nah, where's the rain cloud at?

Like,

>> not only is it that there rainbows don't

exist. Now, we see another problem that

is layered on top, which is that even if

a rainbow exists, he turns away from it.

But before we get get to the why and how

and and these are the adaptations, this

is the work of therapy is like you have

this bad thing and then you build

survival mechanism that protects you

from it but survival mechanism causes

problems and then you build second

survival mechanism on top which causes

additional problems and I want you all

to think about what is going on here. So

I ask him when was the last time you saw

a rainbow in life and he says I can't

remember. And then about 30 60 seconds

later, he's like, "When I see a rainbow,

I turn away." So this is kind of

interesting because if you say there's

rain in my life every day, but you

discount the data points, you actually

turn away from the data points that are

in the positive direction. We know this

happens in in depression that people

have literally something called a

cognitive filter which when something

good happens they don't register it or

they push it away. Anytime there's a W,

I don't register it. Anytime there's an

L, I do register it. What is the picture

that my life becomes? And this is really

tricky, right? Because his life feels so

bad. And I'm I have no doubt that it is.

But there is a thing here that we can

change. This is not talking about your

feelings. This is a cognitive retraining

to at least register your W's. I'm not

saying that there isn't one W for 99

L's. Could be very rare W's. One out of

10. Who knows? But the key thing here is

that for some reason he's not even

willing to register them.

>> Damn. How it is cuz why everyone turns

away from the sun? How dark do you think

their life is going to be?

>> Pretty sure it gets darker. But if when

the sun is out and it's still dark

though, you know what I mean? Like

>> you're the one who's turning away.

>> Yeah. Because I've already been I've

already been I guess conditioned.

>> I I want you to think about that for a

second, Lamar. I I don't doubt that you

believe this for a good reason because

you've learned, right, that even though

there's sun, it ends up being rainclouds

anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> This protects you.

>> It does.

>> From being disappointed.

>> It does.

>> But it traps you.

>> Yeah. There's pros and cons in it. Most

definitely. It's pros and cons.

>> So let's talk about turning away from

the rainbow. So why does someone turn

away from the good things in life?

Because there's this sense of the other

shoe dropping. So in life we have a

certain amount of hope, we have a

certain amount of drive and over time if

we get punished for hoping again and

again and again and again. At some point

we decide that the right adaptation for

survival

is to stop hoping. And this is the

problem with a lot of like depression is

that see you can have two goals in life.

Your goal can be to survive or your goal

can be to thrive. And when circumstances

happen to people like Lamar where he's

overseas for eight years and then like

he comes back at some point thriving is

like no longer is not no no longer. It

stopped working a long time ago. So the

only option that we've got is survive

running on empty. In these last few

moments I'm I'm running on empty running

on empty. Running on. I tried and tried.

I'm tired. I'm tired. I'm tired. right

now. The we we've lowered the goalpost

so much because that's not possible at

all. That future is gone. All that's

left is survival. The other thing is I I

want you all to just think about this

with me for a second. So, he has tried

to fix his life and he's been punished

for it. Things have not worked out. So,

I I think there are a couple of things

here that I I kind of want to highlight

and I'm trying to find the words for

them. The first is that he has a lot of

disappointment in what's supposed to

work. So usually when I hear this

calcified

of a lack of hope, a loss of faith in

the system of being bucketed by

psychiatrists,

I suspect that there is one really

important nidus of this belief. So

there's one really traumatic thing that

happened to him, and I'm going to I know

this is kind of abstract, so I'll give

you all an example. When I've worked

with people like this in the past, they

go off to war with the hope of something

to return to. You know, when I come

back, I'm making all these sacrifices,

but when I come back, someone else will

meet me halfway, and someone else will

help me get back into life. I'll have

doctors for medications.

My sweetheart will be there. But when I

come back, what I discover

is that all of it's gone, right? And

just think about how crushed you are.

Think about what how you see the world

now. What is the point in trying? You

tried and you sacrificed. And here's the

scary thing about Lamar. He did

everything right. And we haven't even

touched that yet. But if you pay

attention, he did everything right. And

look at where it got him. And now some

[ __ ] Harvard trained psychiatrist

with all of his knowledge and all of his

credentials is going to tell me, "No,

no, no. This is the right. This is the

right. This is the right." He's heard

again. He's heard that before. It's

spaghetti against a wall. So this is

what we have to get out, man. We have to

let this out. Let that anger out cuz

he's carrying it all alone by himself.

Because as long as that anger is there,

you're not going to be able to engage in

life.

>> I try to be that marine that comes back

It's just shitty, man. It's just [ __ ]

It's not what was told to me. Like, you

do this, get the honorable discharge,

and America take care of you. Like, all

this type of stuff. So, I've been fed

all this. I believed it wholeheartedly.

There we go. Like, I'm I held on to that

hope

just to be shattered, man. Just to be

shattered in a way that touched with my

my Achilles heel.

>> I want y'all to pay attention to the

emotion, right? the pent up emotion of

being let down.

>> Ain't nothing you can really tell me at

this point because now I'm piss I'm in

piss mode. Really? I'm pissed.

>> Ah, look. We predicted the anger as

well. Once again, I cheated. But

honestly, I didn't remember it. This

this is a common pattern. Okay, so Freud

said that depression is anger turned

against the self. So one of the steps in

depression is you feel really depressed,

you feel really hopeless. We got to

convert that into anger as part of the

healing process. So when you try to come

in with the niceness, okay, that's cool.

But in my mind, that [ __ ] temporary. We

ain't got no connection like that.

>> Notice his face now. Now it's coming

out, right? So now, so he was open for a

little while. He was smiling. He was

asking questions. Now, no more.

>> I'm I'm glad you're sharing your anger

with me. You've been told a thousand

times, do this and it'll work. And it's

never worked.

>> It's never worked.

>> So what's the play here? Right now the

play is we're going to reflect back. So

now that he's closed off again, we can't

plant any more seeds.

>> And then there's this whole business

about turning away from the sun. I think

what's going to be really interesting is

I I I don't know how to help you. I

believe you can be helped. Look at his

face. Right now we're back. We've almost

regressed. And I think there's something

that I'm going to kind of leave you

with, which is this is going to be a

video that's going to be watched by

millions of people.

And all those people are gonna watch you

and they're gonna think something about

you and they're gonna say something

about you.

I think what they say about you and what

they think about you is going to be

profound. So now what am I doing? Right?

I'm saying like look, this is going to

be seen. People are going to they're

going to look at this and they're going

to see you. And I want you guys to like

look at his face. Does he like what I am

saying? Right? Can he handle what I'm

saying?

And now comes the the best question, the

final question, which is in his mind,

what does he think people will think

about him? Right? What do y'all think?

Let's see if y'all can figure it out,

right? Does he think I'm not even going

to give you all answers, but this is

like this is really important to

understand. I wish there was a way that

I could flip a switch in your head and

have you receive that the way that

normal human beings get to. So I want

you all to just think how are people

going to perceive him? Does he does he

know? And what is his reaction to that?

And how do you understand that? And

that's why therapy is helpful because

what we end with is when a human being

receives something from other human

beings and this is their reaction,

right? Imagine what their life is like.

And fixing that is way more than just

talking about your feelings.