[music]

>> Bloomberg Audio Studios

>> The French newspaper L'Express recently

asked Europe's top spies which country

has the best clandestine agency. The

winner?

MI6. And the runner-up is France's DGSE.

Netherlands, Ukraine, and Germany round

out the rest of the top five.

>> That's right. But how has the spy game

changed in the modern era? Is AI making

the job harder or easier? And where does

the CIA factor in? We sat down with Sir

Richard Dearlove, the former head of

British intelligence and co-host of the

One Decision podcast.

>> I mean, if you look at the European

intelligence agencies

but largely historical reasons, there's

no question that

the United Kingdom in MI6 has

let's say the agency with the broadest

international remit

with representation in many countries

and with a depth and length of

experience which is unmatched by any

other European service. I mean, bearing

in mind

MI6 is a historical creation that goes

back to 1909. And there's no other

European service that has a history of

with that depth. So, I'm not surprised.

Of course, it's the best European

service. I would say that, wouldn't I?

>> Why is human intelligence so important?

What makes it so valuable?

>> Um

because I think you can only really

find out the sort of

detail

of what you're searching for by

talking to the people who've actually

got access

to the decision-making process in a

foreign government. So, let's say the

current war in Iran.

Uh I would imagine that let's say Mossad

has human sources amongst the Iranian

leadership. You therefore

get a much more

integrated and clear picture of how the

leadership of the IRGC

is thinking in the conduct of the war.

Um I mean intercept can be valuable

and really important, but you might only

have

a partial picture.

Uh

and you know, data analysis

doesn't give you that human dimension.

Um

>> Is it getting harder to recruit and

train people to be successful operations

agents? I mean, do people still want to

be spies? I It seems like in an era

where everybody wants to tell everybody

everything. Is it hard to say to a smart

young person, we want you to do a lot of

risky amazing stuff, but you can't put

it on Instagram?

>> Yeah, I guess that's a good point, but I

think if the career

is regarded as prestigious,

if the career offered is good,

I mean, I can honestly say I was in

MI6 for 38 years.

And despite the discipline, the

restraints,

the secrecy, I probably never had a

boring day at work. How many people can

say that in a 38-year career? So, there

is then attraction. I think it requires

a special

type of character, you know, that's

suited to the work. Of course, not

everybody is.

And the selection is pretty fierce, but

certainly in the UK,

it's

maintained its reputation of an

attractive career. In some other

countries,

where the intelligence community has

been more politicized, I wouldn't say

that's necessarily true.

>> Well, as speaking of, uh I'm wondering

what your assessment is right now of

cooperation between MI6 and the CIA. I

know when you were head of the agency,

you spent a lot of time in Washington.

You spent a lot of time uh both at the

in Langley and in the White House.

But, is that cooperation as good as it

used to be? And does the CIA have a

retention and recruiting problem at the

moment?

>> Well, let's answer the last two real

questions first. I'm told the CIA does

have a recruiting problem at the moment.

But, that's maybe because there has

recently, I think rather shockingly,

been a purge

of senior officers on the basis of the

degree of their loyalty loyalty to to to

mega republicanism. I mean, it shouldn't

be a party issue, but I think it's

become so, and I think the previous or

departing

uh DDA, that's the head of the

operational bit of CIA, I think his name

is Tom Sylvester,

who should have finished his career

uh in London

has been uh denied the job and has

retired

because it wasn't absolutely clear that

he was a sort of uncritical mega

republican supporter.

I find that very alarming.

Um and not good for the service at all.

I mean,

uh the tradition in MI6

is that you work whatever the party is

in government, that you don't express a

political opinion.

Um and okay, you're denied that

opportunity publicly to advertise your

own views, but you know, that's part of

the discipline of being a national

intelligence officer, and I think the

CIA at the moment

certainly seems to have a problem. I

guess that will pass because

it has a tradition of producing and

training very capable field officers.

>> When you look at other intelligence

agencies, including MI6, at the moment,

do they trust the CIA? Do they trust

sharing intelligence with the United

States?

>> Yes, I think they do.

I would say that

over time, there have always been issues

of complexity in those sorts of

relationship

because there can be divergence in

political aims

and there can be problems which arise

sometimes which are not publicized. I

mean, during my time, although we were

very very close to CIA country I'm

talking about 9/11 or let's say the war

in Afghanistan, war in Iraq.

If you go back a step before that, there

were problems between the UK and the US

over the conflict in the Balkans where

there were political differences and

problems arose which were more of a

political nature. This isn't unknown,

but I mean, I would have thought that

both sides will be trying to make

the operation work, but sometimes

you have a view in the White House or

maybe you have a view in number 10

Downing Street which can cause problems.

I mean, these relationships can be quite

complicated.

Uh uh

and you know, objectives, particularly

short-term ones, can diverge.

>> Would you still recommend a career in

intelligence for a young person either

in Washington or in London?

>> Yes, I think I would. I mean, if you're

interested in geopolitics

if you're interested in the state of the

world

if you are cool-headed

if you like if you feel at home in

foreign countries

uh and you are comfortable in those

sorts of environment, that career can

still offer a lot. And I think maybe

some of the current

difficulties that may have arisen

between Washington and London, I

wouldn't like to overemphasize them.

relationship is still quite close on the

intelligence side.

Probably you know these things come and

go and I'm sure that you know that your

present administration in the US

I think we regard as something of an

operation but there are still areas of

cooperation which are hugely important.

>> Maybe I missed my calling although I do

like to talk. I'm not great at keeping

secrets.

>> Sir Richard I think you'd be you would

have been great at the job.

>> [laughter]

>> Thank you. All right, well maybe I'll

circle back. Sir Richard, so nice to see

you. Thank you so much.

>> I don't know about that. I I was

trusting everything you said until the

end when he was like you'd be very good

at the job. I'm not sure about that.

>> He's a very polite man. Can you just let

me have this?

>> shrewd perspicacious

>> made a good spy?

>> I would not have mostly because of all

of the restrictions he was talking

about. I also like to talk and

uh I don't know. I don't know. I also

>> operations part of it are very similar

to journalism, right? You got to get

people to trust you. You got to get in

the field but the back end is where I

want to tell everyone everything but not

>> Whenever I watch like old spy movies or

read old spy novels, it seems like you

had a level of you know anonymity. You

could cultivate a level of anonymity or

a different identity you can't really do

now.

>> I do wonder how they do that especially

since I was just traveling, you know,

and everything is facial recognition now

and everything is digital. It's I don't

know if it's easier or harder but

he won't tell me.

>> Well, sworn to secrecy. Very good

conversation. Interesting about that um

how he said you know the relationship

between the US and

the UK spy agents, you know, goes ups

and downs. I think he put it. There's

cycles to it.

>> I like the special relationship overall,

I think.

>> Indeed. pulling back more