All

right, welcome to a new episode of Power

Players. Uh, really jacked up for my

next guest here, uh, Griffin Gaming

Partners co-founder and managing

director.

>> Yes, sir.

>> Peter Leven, good to see you here.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Uh, it's a pleasure.

>> I cannot hold a candle to your knowledge

on gaming. Like, we were just talking

about board games before we even came on

here. Like, is that where your love for

this industry began? Just a just a good

old classic tabletop board game?

>> I mean, yes. Uh, and I am going to

update some of your uh your catalog back

here. Thank you. I appreciate you. A

little Settlers of Katan, a little

Ticket to Ride.

>> Thank you.

>> Um, but I've been a gamer my whole life.

So, you know, I'm I'm one of those very

lucky folks who was kind of able was

able to thread the needle of pursuing,

you know, a career that that speaks to

uh my passions. So, yeah, tabletop

gaming, board gaming, but video games,

you video games has always been my jam.

first check I ever wrote into a company

uh back in 1998 was a company called

Gamespy Industries

>> down in Orange County. And um you know

back in the day no one was writing

checks into video game businesses and

this was more of a software

infrastructure platform play uh but if

you were a gamer at the time if you were

playing games like a Duke Nukem or a

Halflife or a Quake or Doom

>> Duke Nukem Quake. Wow. You take me back

to high school.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. That was some those were big

games. Well, you couldn't play those

games with other people without

Gamespot. So, it became this kind of

prior to, you know, the proliferation of

of the internet. Um, and the only other

way you could play with others was

through land parties was through

Gamespy. It was kind of an internet

crawler. Um, and so that company almost

went out of business four times in four

years and then just went on a parabolic

curve and we were able to scale it, um,

sell it to IGN and the News Court. Talk

to me a little bit about uh Griffin

Gaming. What what do you do there?

>> Um so we're the you know one of not the

world's leading investment vehicles that

singularly focuses on the gaming sector

and its agencies which very much

includes sport um but everything from

you think about you know trading card

games and and even board games and

tabletop um you know I'd say the

adjacencies are broadening if if you

look at uh what's happening in the

global media landscape. So we manage

just about a billion six across our

multiple vehicles. We have uh strategic

partners from all over the globe. We are

stage agnostic. Uh we are geography

agnostic. Um and we invest in platform

infrastructure developers, publishers,

etc.

>> How is it different today uh writing a

check to invest in a in a gaming company

compared to what you did in 1998?

>> Oh boy. Well, I mean the market has

gotten so big. You mentioned earlier you

spoke to to Mark Pinkis you recently.

>> Really good chat.

>> Yeah. He he's about as uh Zinga founder

of course.

>> Yes. Uh and someone we've partnered with

just a a legend in the industry. Um the

the industry has grown significantly in

a in a variety of different indexes. I

mean today you've got 3.6 billion

gamers. Onethird of the world's

population plays games for an hour a

day. Um it's larger than music, movies,

and publishing combined as an industry.

Um last year in the US, you had two

times the amount of hours spent by

people watching other people play games

than Netflix. Um so I think it's the

size of the market. And the other thing

that happened psychologically, COVID was

a huge um I think moment in time for the

industry where the numbers were

gobsmacking but they were still very

antiseptic in particular here in New

York with analysts. I was always reading

the quarterly reports,

>> you know, from uh from the banks and um

they were always arms length and then

during co when folks weren't taking the

subway into the city and they were home

with, you know, Sally and Johnny,

>> you had to game. I dusted off my Xbox

360 during the pandemic.

>> You and I haven't used it since.

>> You and hundreds of millions of other

people did. But it was also parents were

watching their kids. Hey, they're not

watching TV. They're not watching

movies. They're either gaming or they're

watching other people play games. And I

think that psychological hurdle um was a

big moment for the industry. If you

don't mind, I'm going to jump around a

little bit because I I really love the

gaming industry. I This interview had me

thinking back to my first two

experiences with gaming. One was Oregon

Trail. I think it was Commodore 64 in

school. Oh, yeah. But then the power pad

for Nintendo and and what the little gun

for Duck Hunt. So, those were my first

like interactions with gaming. It was it

feels like yesterday like you mentioned

Netflix now they have tried to get into

gaming um

>> do they have a place in gaming and I

can't even find their games on the

platform um well certainly on on the you

know the mobile um interface it's it's

it's somewhat front and center they

absolutely have a place I mean if you

look at Netflix if you look at Amazon if

you look at Google um they've all taken

shots on goal uh They will continue to

take shots on goal. They have to take

shots on goal. And I mean, one of the

primary reasons if I'm Netflix, do I

want to drive people off platform to go

consume interactive storytelling

experiences on someone else's platform,

right? It's it's hard enough to bring

customers on platform. It's expensive

enough. It's cost prohibitive to

reacquire them. So, they're all trying

to figure it out. um have all their

shots on goal um you know been runs on

the board you no they haven't but that's

okay these are you know these are

businesses with tens of billions of

dollars of R&D um and firepower and they

they have the ability um to be

ambulatory to to react to what's

happening um in the market but I think

at the end of the day you're going to

see each and every one of these

streaming platforms is going to be a

player in gaming one way or another

>> I think you're the right guy to ask this

one um on Netflix. Does it make more

sense for them to build games or go out

and inquire? You know, I acquire. I look

at a company Electronic Arts, huge

Madden franchise. I see what Netflix is

trying to do in live sports and various

live events. Does it make more sense to

make a bid for that company or a company

like it?

>> Yeah. I mean, I I I don't think it's

mutually exclusive. I think I think they

should explore both. First of all, it'

be great for me if they

>> Why is that? Well, because we have, you

know, a portfolio of games businesses,

you know, north of a hundred. So, we'd

love for these folks to become more

inquisitive, but I think you're going to

see them, all of them, um, explore both.

I think organic growth is challenging at

scale. Uh, you really have to have, you

know, the right athletes in place to

manage those businesses. Um, but I think

you're going to see absolutely you're

going to see, you know, more M&A. um you

know there's there's very few

opportunities you know at scale these

days uh for these folks to acquire you

know tens if not hundreds of millions of

of customers and these guys again they

have the resources to do it. Um I think

you know I'm one of those who looks at

some of the moves that have been made

and unfortunately there have been

layoffs within the industry but at the

same time there's been a lot of hiring

um you know within other se sectors and

subsectors of the industry but the

gaming

industry you know for decades has much

more reflected that of enterprise

software meaning it's a bit more

mercenary you know they're able to cut

the fat when they see it versus legacy

media. Right. And if you look at legacy

media, film and television and the music

industry, I mean, the film and

television industry got lapped by

Netflix like overnight, you know, but

not for Spotify and Pandora and Apple

Music and touring. The music industry

was kind of on its last breath for a

minute there. Um, but technology, right,

and kind of enterprise software kind of

breathe life back in, you know, do new

distribution paradigms. Um, so you know,

I think change is good and I think

you're going to see folks like Netflix

um, you know, both acquire and try to

build organically.

>> When I saw the that huge Fbox layoff

news, my first thought was they're

preparing to spin off that company or

divest that business to improve the

economics of it and prepare for a sale.

Did you read it that way?

>> You know, I think it's been read that

way. It's aute observation. I think it's

been read that way for a while. Right.

At the end of the day, if you look at

the macro business of Microsoft,

you know, Xbox and gaming kind of barely

moves the needle, right? And so, if that

doesn't change dramatically, you know,

in a very truncated window, uh, I could

absolutely see that that being the case.

And they've got some incredible IP.

>> Well, how how attractive is that asset?

Just push aside the fact that, you know,

the expense structure might be better. I

mean, I think about the Xbox Live, the

the entertainment, the, you know, you're

talking to different gaming players, you

got the franchises. I mean, it's huge.

>> It is. Um, it is. And I think at the end

of the day, when you look at the

acquisition of an asset like um

Bethesda, Zanamax,

>> you know, Fallout and the portfolio of

IP, you know, just, you know, within

within that little basket of of of brand

equities. um you know that alone you

know it's a multi-billion dollar asset

at this point. So there's a lot in

there. Um there's some smart folks there

you know folks smarter than I with

respect to how they're going to manage

their business. So I wouldn't be

surprised you know if we saw them them

spin it out.

>> Are you surprised that really the last

big deal going back to Mark Pinkis I

mean was Zinga sale to take two. Was

that one of the that was one of the last

kind of big deals in the space?

>> Well you had Savvy by Scopely.

>> Mhm. you know, you had EA, you know, uh

EA was recently purchased. You've had a

lot of

>> I forgot EA. Good call. Yeah,

>> it's a big one. Um but again, that had

been rumored for a really long time. And

I mean, I remember

20 plus years ago where, you know, the

rumors were Disney was going to buy EA.

And then prior to that, the rumor was

that EA was going to buy Disney,

>> right? Kind of prior to, you know, um I

taking the helm. Um, so I think there's

going to be more M&A probably um, in

that kind of medium-sized um,

acquisition space. I think a lot of

these players in legacy media are trying

to figure out, you know, how again, this

is the most attractive and the most

elucid demographic within the global

media. I mean, the last public the last

public video game company from it's Take

Two, right? And they're out there with

Grand Theft Auto and that community.

>> Yeah. And then you've got well you know

you've got Discord right folks are

there's a lot of chatter about what's

going to happen with Discord you know

whether or not they'll be exploring the

markets in you know the next few

quarters or so. So while not a publisher

developer you know they certainly are

the most meaningful communication

platform to to the gaming demographic.

>> As someone in the trenches with gaming

what takes so long to get a Grand Theft

Auto out like why all these years before

this company could get this game out?

Yeah, I mean I AAA gaming is in

particular at that I mean that's

rarified error. There's nothing like

GTA. Um certainly not venture friendly,

right? You talking 10ear cycles plus.

>> But it doesn't really matter if you the

the most successful individual piece of

intellectual property in the history of

intellectual property was GTA 5, right?

So, if you just think about that, what

what GTA 6 is going to mean to the

market, just their pre-sales, those

numbers are, you know, incredible, but

it's not, you know, it's not for the

faint of heart. And Strauss Zelnik, you

know, at the helm of Take 2 is he's an

apex predator. That guy's a as alpha as

it gets.

>> Yeah, he's very alpha. I know he loves

working out. He's he's an interesting

cat. Like, what why why do you explain

the staying power of a game like GTA

after all these years?

>> Community um they've done such a great

job. of providing experiences and

offerings and wink nods um Easter eggs,

you know, to that that audience um over

the years and over the decades. And it's

also, you know, it's it's a they provide

for you um kind of an architecture

within which you can operate, but you

can create your own experiences. You

know, you get to play and engage with

your cohort. Um so it's a very social

experience. Um, and it's one of those

things where, you know, I played GTA

back when, right? So, it's a lot of

folks who discovered it, you know, early

on within their, you know, their gaming

career, if you will. Um, and they they

look forward with much delight to the

next installment.

>> What is the future for a company like a

a Roblox look like? I've, you know, I've

had the opportunity to talk to Dave

Bizooki, um, founder, a good number of

times, and their growth every single

quarter has been very, very strong. um

how do you explain that and what does

the next five to 10 years look like for

them?

>> First of all, you know, one of the

smartest guys Yeah. within our industry.

I mean, Dave would be successful, you

know, selling coffee uh at scale

globally. Um

I they're a company I would never count

out. You know, there's a lot of folks

that say, "Oh, are they plateauing? You

know, what is next?" Um there are so

many millions of creators that create on

platform and as they continue to figure

out you know how best to both monetize

that but also incentivize that creation

I think they're going to be coming up

with you know new models uh with which

to both incentivize and monetize but

they also have to to focus you know um

not not throwing the baby out of the

bathwater on you know making sure it's a

secure and safe environment

>> um for that demographic. in particular,

the younger part of their demographic.

Now, you're reading a lot about them

targeting, you know, somewhat of an

older demographic, which again, that's

not a guy I'm ever going to bet against.

>> Yeah. No, Dave is uh Dave has done some

very good work. You mentioned what 100

companies that you're invested in.

>> 100 plus. Yeah.

>> 100 plus. How big of where are you

taking your bigger bet biggest bets and

within that portfolio?

How focused are you on sports? Everyone

I talk to right now is just betting big

on sports in different areas of their

operation.

>> Yeah. And I I think we're, you know,

we'll touch on, you know, Scott Coker's

MMA platform that that that we invested,

you know, within. As someone who's

invested in sports as long as I've been

investing in gaming. Um, you know, if

it's immature, I'm your guy, right? If

it's comic books, if it's trading cards,

if it's video games, if it's sports, if

it's arrested development, um, I'm u,

sign me up. Um, but I think when you

look at what's happening in the world of

sport, I mean, we're, you know,

thankfully I'm going to be attending the

final on Sunday here, you know, in New

York, the World Cup final.

>> Jo,

>> uh, yeah, last minute invite. I was very

pleased to be included, you know,

happened to be here on business. But if

you look at what the World Cup has done,

you know, just the the numbers um of

eyeballs that are tuning in through

legacy media, through streaming

platforms, um but the micro clipping,

right? You know, um the amount of social

media generated by the Europeans coming

over here, you know, the the Asian fans

that have come over here to uh delight

in the World Cup experience. Um it's

been an incredible, you know,

advertisement for the United States. I

think we've done a great job. Mexico as

well. Um the

the fear though that brands and

marketers have when they look at legacy

media in particular, you know, broadcast

television, um you know, those eyeballs

are gone and the eyeballs that remain

are not all that attractive to those

brands and marketers. If you talk to the

WPPs and the IPGs and the unilvers and

the Proctor and Gamles, etc. Um and so

sport you can build a mode around. Sport

is tribal. Sport, much like gaming,

sport is communal. Um, you know, these

people want to dawn a jersey and they

want to cheer for their team. Um, it's

something it immediately gives context.

And so, it is not surprising, you know,

that we've seen the amount of capital

being deployed um into, you know, the

world of sport. Um, it in particular for

folks who've invested in legacy media

where there's a tremendous amount of

disintermediation. Uh we talked about

some of the streaming platforms you know

you look at someone like David Ellison

you know he's you know native digital

you know comes from an extremely

forwardthinking you know digital

environment. You're going to see more

and more of that DNA I think taking over

of legacy media which is great. Um but I

think you're going to start to see more

of the legacy media businesses continue

to invest significantly um in sport. How

does sport translate into the gaming

industry right now? When I think gaming,

I still think Madden. I still think what

EA has done with FIFA. Like what's next

in the space?

>> Yeah, I mean EAFC or, you know, FIFA

back, you know, prior to it. Um,

nothing's bigger, you know, globally.

Um, you know, Madden, you know, NBA 2K.

>> Um, you know, PGA 2K. Um, prior to that,

Tiger Woods Golf. Um,

>> I will always know it as Tiger Woods

Golf. [laughter] Yeah, I'm kind of with

you on on on that. Um you're going to

continue to see, you know, football

manager um you know the there are so

many sports that are underlevered in

gaming. Um MMA being one of them. Um you

know, these are sports where the fan

bases are extremely invested in athletes

or teams. Um you know, the ability to

build your own stable of fighters, for

example, you know, build your own dojo,

if you will. Um, again in a sense that's

cool.

>> It is. I think so. Right.

>> Yeah. No, it's cool.

>> And I I when when we look at the

landscape of sports gaming, um, there's

a lot of the very obvious stuff, um, you

know, again, the titles that that we've

already referenced, but it's the I think

the the simlike titles, the indie titles

in sport have yet to be, you know,

tapped into. And if you look at, you

know, indie gaming is probably one of,

if not the most exciting um verticals

within the gaming industry right now.

The numbers on Steam, which is the

primary distribution and acquisition

platform for indie gaming, you know,

those numbers are um incredible. You

know, on this month, there'll be 10

billion hours of content consumed on

Steam. There'll be 9 billion on of

Netflix, right? So um there are you know

20,000 titles will be published on Steam

this year. 15 years ago when it launched

there were 275 titles. Um and one of the

areas that is you know underexplored

is sport and I think you're going to

start to see a lot more um indie titles

uh in the world of sport which will be

great you know for the greater gaming

community.

>> Okay. Tell me a little more about the

M&A MMA investment you made. What what

boxes were you looking to check when you

put that money to work?

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I've it's the it's

the one deal I I told my uh my partner

Nick Toto when you know, we uh my

co-founder and um um partner in crime.

He doesn't like when I say that cuz but

uh uh was look, there's this, you know,

there's one area uh MMA that uh you

know, I've been involved with for a very

long time. Um I go back to the early

2000s. for a minute. I I represented

about 20 to 25 of the world's top MMA

fighters. Um, so Mark Coleman, you know,

Randy Couture, Quinton Jackson.

>> How'd you get into that?

>> That's a We're not We're not

>> We'll We'll have to have you back cuz

that's pretty wild.

>> Okay. So, at the time, I'll I'll make it

quick. My I worked for a guy in LA who

we very unsuccessfully, unfortunately,

um he was trying to bring the NFL to LA.

Um and so, and I was his, you know, uh

lieutenant. Um, and so I got to to be

the tip of the spear on a lot of those

conversations and and at the time we had

access to a lot of the uh the

information with regard to the global

sports landscape and the ecosystem and

um what was um the heat map and what was

popping where and whenever you looked at

at Asia particularly Japan um and then

in Eastern Europe at the time there was

this MMA thing and it you know the

numbers

um again were were just absolutely

gobsmacking and um so I bopped over to

Japan to investigate and at the time it

was dominated by Pride uh if you're

familiar with you know the or which the

UFC eventually purchased and K1 um this

was you know at the time the UFC was

only legal I think in two states Nevada

and New Jersey. This was prior to

>> I remember New Jersey. Yeah.

>> Prior to Zufa buying it, prior to Dana

and the Fertitta brothers uh buying it.

Um, and um, I wanted to get in. So, I

tried to figure out a way to get into

the cap tables in particular, uh, Pride

and and and K1, and they wanted nothing

to do with me in Japan,

>> and they sent me packing. So, my thesis

was, okay, let's let's go out and I had

a partner at the time, guy named Jeremy

Lapend. Uh, we formed Battle Management

and

let's go out and sign as many of the

world's top MMA fighters as we can and

kind of reverse engineer the economics

because we knew they'd have to deal with

us then. And so that's what we did. Dan

Henderson again, Randy Couture, Quinton

Jackson, Boss Ruten, Matt Lynland, Mark

Coleman, um, Marco Huosas, just a ton of

these guys. And so then they all had to

deal with us.

>> Uh and I, you know, tons of negotiating

with um uh the pride folks, the cocky

bar back in the day and Koncho K1 and

eventually Dana White, uh when you know

the Fertittas bought the the UFC. And

what I learned in those first 3 years of

being in the trenches, kind of the

bottom up, there's only two guys on

earth that know how to run a global

global MMA platform at scale profitably.

And one is Dana White and has a really

big job. And the other is this guy Scott

Coker um who um has become, you know,

one of my my best friends, you know,

brother from another mother. um just an

incredible operator, a generational

operator. And so I went to Scott and

said, "Look, I you know, this whole

fight of representation thing was kind

of a means to an end. I would love to

aid in a bet your your efforts." Um and

so he allowed me into the cap table as

an adviser and an investor. And um from

there, I I had a front row seat, watched

him scale that business, you know,

helped advise a little bit on on his EA

MMA deal, which was a lot of fun. and um

you know was a sounding board on his

ESPN um and other distribution you know

relationships. Um and then you know

eventually he sold that business to the

UFC

>> but I from from the day he sold it uh to

the day his non-compete was up I was

begging him. I'm like Scott you're

you're the only guy that could throw

your hat back in the ring and and um you

know and plant a flag in this sport. Uh

you've done it. And then he did it

twice. He turned around Bellator for

Viacom. he took it global for them. Um

he got it profitable for them and then

like most legacy media they kind of

drove it right into the ground. You know

they really didn't understand what they

had in particular they didn't understand

what they had in Scott.

>> Um and so for 10 years I was you know

chirping in his ear like please you know

get back at it. And so finally he he

came to me last year and he said you

know I think I'm ready to do this and

I'm going to test this format um up in

San Jose where you know he'd been

promoting for 40 years and he was off to

the races. He put on five local events.

I think by the second event he was

profitable you know sellouts close to

sellouts each of these small events and

he's just got what it takes. And I think

when you look back at the at the history

of of MMA and when it became mainstream,

you you know, you got to you got to

thank people like Dana White and the

Fertitas and Scott Coker. The guy who

gets overlooked is Craig Polyian,

though. He's the guy who put the

Ultimate Fighter.

>> He was the showrunner, you know, for the

Ultimate Fighter. And Kevin Kay, um, who

put that show on TV cuz that was the

moment that that sport went mainstream.

That's when it went from, you know, John

McCain calling it fighting, etc.,

etc., to, you know, tens of millions of

households knowing these athletes by

their first name and getting invested in

them. And that was the the moment, you

know, the paradigm flipped. Um, but for

us as a, you know, as an investment

vehicle, um, it was a no-brainer to have

some skin in this game. It's an

underlevered sport in the world of

gaming. It's an underlevered sport. You

know, in all of the ancillaries, you

know, we're we were joking about trading

cards before we kicked. I'm a guy who

owns a half a million trading cards. So,

half a million trading cards.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, we got to have you back on that one.

I like I I I'm out of time, but I really

want to have you back cuz I you're one

of the most purest experts we've ever

had on this show. Like, you are a true

domain expert. Like, I could sler, but

>> No, no, this is I want to talk about the

trading cards. Um

>> Oh, I want to talk about

>> All right. Well, we I promise we will

have you back. Um, thanks for doing

this. I appreciate it.

>> Oh, it's great.

>> Peter, good to see you. All right,

that's it for the latest episode of

Power Players.