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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Rolling. Good to see you, sir.

>> Good to be here.

>> Thank you very much for doing this. I'm

really excited to talk to you. I've been

looking forward to this a lot.

>> Yeah. Thanks very much for having me.

>> You have a very very unique life story.

Um, so I want we're I want to start with

how did you be you became let's lay it

out for people. What got me interested

in you is you became a Christian

missionary and then went to the jungle

and met these people. Let me say this

right. The pahai

>> paha

>> paha paha

>> and stopped being a missionary and lived

with them for how long? Well, the total

time that I lived with him is about

eight years in the jungle with them o

over a period, but I've been working

with him for 40 years. I go back a lot.

>> Wow. And but you lived with them for

eight years. And during that 8-year time

period, you kind of would you is it safe

to say you're an atheist?

>> Yes, it's safe to say that.

>> And so for let's take it back to the

beginning. How did you become a

missionary? Were did you come from a

religious family?

>> No, I came from a very unreligious

family. I was um in fact I was standing

out in front of a Jimmyi Hendricks

concert in 1968 trying to sell LSD to

get in and uh and this guy that I knew

from high school that was really

straight lace came up with his sister

and she was very cute and so I went up

to try to sell them some LSD. They

didn't use drugs and so I said, "Well,

you got any change? I need to get some

money to get into the concert." And I I

saw that she went to the same high

school that I did. So, uh, after the

concert, which she didn't like, but I

loved, uh, I I went to see her in high

school. I went sat by her during

lunchtime [snorts] and, uh, found out

that she was a missionary and had been

raised in Brazil. And that really

intrigued me because it was the 60s and

I was, you know, didn't want to have

just the typical US life and living in

the Amazon sounded really cool. But then

I became, you know, a genuine, strong,

believing Christian. uh went to Bible

school. I did my undergraduate degree in

Bible and theology and I was an ordained

minister in the Wesleyan church and very

active in church and um was preached on

street corners and did all that kind of

thing. Um,

>> how did you make that this transition

from being a guy with a bag of acid in

front of a a Jimmyi Hendricks concert to

>> Well, her father, who had been a

missionary now for 20 years, was the

most influential person outside my

family in my life. And he and I would

sit up late at night talking. And, you

know, I was 17 and I found everything he

said to be very convincing and very

interesting. But mainly I loved his

stories of the jungle and what it was

like to live in the jungle and I wanted

to do that and I became a believer. Um

it was a gradual process. Well actually

no it wasn't that gradual. It was my

father was just astounded. He said you

know from one minute I'm worrying about

you getting arrested and now you're

going to church every Sunday with these

people I don't even know. He wasn't that

happy about it. Um

>> he'd rather you just get loaded in front

of the Hendricks concert. Yeah, he would

have actually because he was a heavy

drinker and a construction worker and he

considered that to be part of the

masculine experience, you know,

>> but acid was acid okay with him.

>> I don't think he knew I was doing acid,

but he knew I was doing, you know, weed

and and things like that, but

>> and he didn't mind that.

>> No, that was he didn't want me doing it

in the house, which I did. But, uh,

>> so your rebellion was to become an

outstanding citizen and a Christian

missionary,

>> right? That was my greatest form of

rebellion against the life I had been

leading. Yeah.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. That's what happens when parents

push their kids into a certain

direction. [laughter]

Little people don't like being told what

to do.

>> Yeah.

>> So, um so you immediately, it seems like

>> go become a Christian and and then how

long before you were actually doing

missionary work in the jungle?

>> Well, there's a lot of training you have

to do. So, first I had to do four years

of college, uh, Bible and theology, and

then I had to do some linguistics

training. Um, and then, uh, not not a

graduate degree or anything like that,

just some linguistics training from the

missionary organization because I wanted

to be a Bible translator.

>> And then we did jungle training in

southern Mexico. So, we went to the

jungles of Chiapas and had to do

survival training and all of this.

>> Whoa. What do you have to do there?

>> Well, there are several phases to it.

the family goes and the family's part of

it, but the hardest thing is um to

really see how much you've learned. They

take you on what's called survival hike

and they leave you alone for about a

week in the jungle. You don't not

allowed to take any food or any supplies

of any kind

>> for a week.

>> Yeah. For a week or more. You don't

know. It's going to be at least a week.

Uh in my case, it was about 10 days. Um

and uh you've got to set up your camp

how best you can figure out how to get a

fire going. Do they teach you how to do

all this stuff? They don't just like

figure it out.

>> This is like the final exam. So, you've

had you've had almost four months of

training

>> before they finally take you out on

their survival.

>> Do you have water?

>> You you have maybe a a quart of water

when you leave, but you're going to be

out there for 10 days, so you've got to

find water. So, we learned which vines

have water and how to cut the vines. We

did have a machete, so I was able to

jump up and cut a vine uh at the top

first and then at the bottom. And

>> and no one's monitoring you. They're

just leaving you out there and they're

not making sure you're okay.

>> No, they just come along when the time's

up and if you're there, you're there,

you know.

>> Oh boy. And if you're not, you're dead.

>> You could be. Uh

>> so they didn't even That's insane.

>> Yeah. Well, [laughter]

this is what happens when you live by

faith. You know, you're you're out there

um and God's supposed to be supervising

your training, but it's really rigorous

training. So by the time I actually got

to the Amazon, which was eight years

after I converted, took that long. Um,

it felt like I was coming home. I wasn't

surprised by things.

>> Well, the training was good then. I

mean, I would I would imagine if you

really want someone to be able to

survive alone in the jungle. Best way to

do it is to test them by making them

survive alone in the jungle so that you

get an actual version of the experience.

It's not simulated. You're actually you

actually are getting water from vines.

What were you eating? Um, well, I

learned different kinds of plants that

you could eat. And then I learned how to

make um with a stick, you know, with

like to, you know, make a stick the size

of a toothpick sharpened on both ends.

And and I did have some fishing line and

I would attach that to that. And I was

so proud of myself because I brought up

two fish that were about three inches

long and I ate those and ma most of the

time I ate plants and went hungry. So

when I see the programs like alone, um

I'm that that wouldn't bother me. That's

the kind of stuff we had to do.

[sighs and gasps]

>> They didn't even give you fish hooks.

>> No, you're not. You can't have that kind

of stuff. You have to learn to cope on

your own. You got to make your own.

You've got to be able to recognize the

plants, which ones are poisonous, which

ones are not poisonous. And

>> did you try to make like a bow and arrow

or anything?

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you did. I did. I made a

bow and arrow. Um

>> how did you do that? Um, well, I had a

machete and that's what I had.

>> It's crazy. They give you a machete,

they won't give you a fish hooks. Like,

come on, guys.

>> Yeah. Well, machetes are so much easier

to carry,

>> right? But the machete you need for

firewood, you need for lots of things.

Um,

>> you know, when I got to the Amazon, what

>> do you have a lighter?

>> Uh, no.

>> How you making fires?

>> Well, I had just there they let me take

just a few matches.

>> Oh, Lord. And so no lighter but a few

matches which you kept in a 35mm film

>> uh those little people know about those

things those little containers.

>> Yeah.

>> How many matches they give you for 10

days?

>> Well that you had one of those little

containers with about 10 15 matches in

it at the most.

>> Oh boy.

>> So you got a match a day.

>> You got to keep your fire going all the

time. You always have to keep that fire

going. So before you start it you spend

half the day just cutting firewood. And

I would imagine it's very wet.

>> It's all wet. So, you've got to find

something dry to get it going. And as

they told us,

>> keep it going.

>> Yeah. They said once it's hot enough,

it'll burn anything. But until it gets

hot, you can't just throw that wet wood

on there. It'll put it out. Uh, so you

know, you have to spend a lot of time

exploring, trying to find dry, crackly

wood and leaves and things and get it

going and then slowly introduce the

thinner pieces of wet wood until finally

you can throw on a sping log on there.

>> So, a big part of your day essentially

is making sure that fire stays lit.

>> Yeah,

>> that's a big part of your day. And you

can't get too far from it.

>> No, you have to stay fairly close to it.

And at night, you definitely want to

keep it going. So, I remember one night

waking up and hearing

>> heavy steps around my camp and uh I was

up immediately blowing on that fire for

everything I was worth to get that thing

up.

>> Yeah. Was it Jaguars?

>> I suspect that it could have been,

although I didn't see it. I had my

machete, which when I got to the Amazon

and actually saw Jaguars, I realized

that would have been a pretty pathetic

thing to try go against a Jaguar with a

machete. They would rip your head off

before

>> everybody likes to think they have a

chance though. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah. But what I found out is

jaguars, you know, they get up to 400

pounds and they're the third biggest cat

in the world after the lion and the

tiger. And they often hunt in pairs.

>> And so you don't you wouldn't have a

chance against a jaguar unless you were

one of the peda. I've I know that guys

alone by themselves have killed jaguars.

But uh

>> really?

>> Yeah.

>> What are they using to kill a jaguar?

Well, they're always with their bows and

arrows. Um, I I

>> bow and arrow range for a jaguar. That's

crazy.

>> Well, you better have it ready because

it sneaks up on you. There's another

group that I worked with for quite quite

a while, several months called the

Bonawa, and they use poison darts and

poisoned arrows. So, there's this story

of this guy, he went out hunting um and

uh he he reached a clearing in the

jungle and he saw a deer come out

running straight for him. And at first

he was happy and he was going to kill

the deer. Then he realized deers don't

just come running out of the jungle

towards people. And then right behind

the deer came a jaguar. And the jaguar

saw him, the guy, and he was bigger than

the deer. So the jaguar just took off

straight for him and jumped up. And the

guy got his bow, his blow gun out in

front of him. They're about seven or

eight feet long, these big blow guns.

And it's they're very sturdy. And the

jaguar, he holds it away. The jaguar's

back legs are tearing this meat off of

his legs. And the jaguar's head just

keeps snapping at his face trying to get

his face. And what saved his life was

the jaguar jumped off to go around the

back and try to get him from the back.

But he had a poisoned arrow and he

stabbed the jaguar with it and that

hurts. And the jaguar started to run off

and then he shot it with a poisoned

arrow and but he it took he fell he

passed out and the fam his family found

him a couple of days later with his uh

legs just infected and

>> torn to pieces but he survived. [sighs]

And so these pita, would they go hunt

the jaguars?

>> If they saw that it was um a danger, if

if a woman went out and a jaguar or a

mountain lion

scared her, the men would go out to kill

it. So I've eaten jaguar. Uh

>> what does it taste like?

>> Uh well um this one was sort of uh this

was a sick jaguar, but it's stringy

meat. I mean it's very muscly meat. It's

not tender.

Yeah, they that's how they wound up

killing it. I I found out later. I was

really impressed. You know, they killed

the jaguar, but and they have killed

many jaguars, but this one turned out to

be a sick jaguar, which is why he

attacked the woman

>> like he was starving to death or

something.

>> Yeah, he was starving. So, the men

killed it and ate it. But I did, my

children were with me this whole time.

So, I told my children, I said, "Just

remember who's eating whom?"

>> What? So, do you remember what it tastes

like?

>> Well, it's a it's a stringy meat. It's

really hard to describe all the all the

tastes. Monkey

>> like very sen tough. Yeah. Senoy and

very tough. Um and uh my general rule of

thumb I I eat anything that they kill.

But my general rule of thumb is I

usually have a bottle of Tabasco sauce

and and if you put Tabasco sauce on it,

it's okay.

>> And [snorts] so these uh pah, am I

saying it right? Paha.

>> That's right.

>> Um

>> they don't preserve anything, right?

They just

>> kill things and cook them. Yeah,

[snorts] they they don't, you know, many

many different groups smoke the meat or

salt the meat if they have salt uh or

dry it. And the pahas know how to do

that. I don't know where they learn how

to do it because they never do it except

if they want to trade the meat with

Brazilian boats who come up.

>> But among themselves, they don't

preserve any meat. You know, I was

talking to a guy one time and you know,

why don't you preserve your meat? And he

says, oh, I preserve it in the belly of

my brother. Uh, so they share it and if

I get meat, I give you some and if you

get meat, you give me some. So why would

I,

>> right? So there's no need to store and

also I guess it's very abundant. There's

a lot of life where they live like in

terms of fish and game.

>> There have been. Yeah. I mean they live

on this river, the my river and they're

the only humans that live along the

river for almost 300 miles of the curvy

river. And it's a relatively large river

by US standards. In Brazil, it doesn't

even make many of the maps, but it's a

couple of hundred yards across, and in

the rainy season, it can be as much as

75 ft deep, 100 ft deep. Uh, so there's

plenty of fish for them. In recent

years, that's changed because the

Brazilian government has allowed the

construction of dams across various

rivers. Not their river, but they affect

the water level so much that it's taken

all the fish, most of the fish out of

their river. So now they're starving and

this has led to conflict with Brazilians

who live not too far away and they've

killed a few people stealing food from

their farms and things.

>> Oh man,

you imagine you just have this kind of

harmonious existence with nature and

someone just decides to make a dam.

>> Like you've got it so dialed in that you

don't need to preserve your food, right?

Because everyone's just like happy and

eating fish right out of the river,

>> right? And you know that's um they don't

know where the dam is. They've never

seen the dam. I told them that they

built something that crosses the river

like a wall. And um they say why do they

do that? And I said well they want

electricity which they barely

understand. They've seen I have a

generator. I I never had one for the

first 20 years I was working with them.

But I eventually got a generator and

they could see what electricity was and

I said so that's where they get the

lights. Um but they don't understand it

and it's affect you know it's for the

first time in their history and they've

been living there as far as I can tell

for almost 300 years um on this one

river um for the first time in their

history they can't um be self-sufficient

in protein.

That's crazy. And how long ago did they

build this dam?

>> I think it was about 10 years ago. Um

but they didn't when it first went into

operation then it flooded the entire

lots of farmland lots of settlements and

things up on the MA. But what was

shocking was that way down river from

the dam it affected the water level so

much that the when their river the my

sea goes to its lowest point um in the

dry season there's still only a few

places where you can see the bottom of

the river. Most of the places even when

it's at its lowest you can't see the

bottom of the river but in the last

couple of years it's gotten so low you

can walk across.

>> Oh wow. So, and the fish don't stay

there. [sighs]

So, what are these people eating?

>> Well, they go hunting, which they don't

like to do. But, of course, when the

when the fish are gone, and when the

river's gone, uh you lose a lot of the

game from the jungle. So, they have to

go instead of going a mile into the

jungle, they have to go many miles into

the jungle, and they're still not

successful. So, it's busting up

communities. Some people are moving out

of their normal area to other areas to

try to, you know, back on the on bigger

rivers, but then that means they're

surrounded by Brazilians and they're no

longer leading the life that they used

to lead.

>> So when they move into these

civilization areas, are they integrating

or are they trying to like stay as a

tribe removed from urban society? Like

how are they doing it? Well, up until

about five years ago, um they would

never have thought about integrating.

They would live in like ghettos. If they

if they were out near some town, they

would live in the jungle away from the

town because that whole part of Brazil

is covered in jungle. Even the cities

are bordered by jungle.

>> Uh but nowadays,

because there's no food anywhere,

they're trying to integrate more.

They're trying to learn Portuguese. And

um uh it's um it's a very unfortunate u

situation for them right now. God,

that's such a bummer.

That sucks so hard. So when you first

got there, your aim was

to try to convert them to Christianity.

>> That's right. I went there to translate

the Bible and plant a church and get

everybody believing.

>> And why Peter? Why did you go to those

people? Well, we were in our training

and the missionary organization, the

Wickliff Bible Translators, uh, offered

us three three areas. They said, "You

can go to New Guinea. We need people in

New Guinea. You can go to Mexico or you

can go to Brazil." And in Brazil,

there's this tribe called the Paha that

we've had two teams assigned to, and

nobody's been able to figure out the

language because it's not related to any

other known living language. And so they

said, "If you're up for that challenge,

and we know you did well in linguistics,

uh, we'd be happy to have you take that

group." So I thought, "Well, sure. I'm

up for a challenge." So we took that.

>> And so this was 1977.

>> 1977.

>> We were assigned there in 76 and I made

my first trip in in December of 1977.

>> And so how much of the language did you

know before you got there?

>> Nothing.

>> Nothing.

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Yeah. Uh in 1784,

Portuguese explorers uh made contact and

they didn't take lists of words. They

they wrote a few descriptive things

about the language and about the people.

Um and those things still fit them

today. Um and then in 1821 a German

explorer went there and he took a long

list of words which was amazing because

he didn't have linguistics or anything

like that and um his list of words is

pretty good. Uh and then in 1920

um another German who naturalized

Brazilian uh the the founder of

Brazilian anthropology uh went there and

took a much larger word list and that

one is very good. And so I had those

little word lists. They're not much and

there's no how does the grammar work or

anything like that. It's just lists of

words. So I had looked at those but they

it's a tone language and so they hadn't

written the tone. So I had no idea how

to pronounce the words. You know to give

you an example of what a tone language

is. Um so if I want to say friend I say

mi and if I want to say enemy it's magi.

Uh, and uh,

>> what's the difference?

>> So, if I whistle it, friend is,

and if I whistle enemy, it's [whistles]

if you can't hear the tones, you don't

know what's going on. So, the word for

for me is u ch. And the word for [ __ ] is

ch. Uh, so, you know, you can be talking

about yourself and everybody starts

laughing because you've called yourself

>> [ __ ]

>> [ __ ] um

>> because you have the wrong tone.

>> Because you have the wrong tone. So, you

know, there are a lot of tone languages

in the world. Mandarin's tonal, Korean

somewhat tonal, and many languages of

Africa are tonal. But for those of us

who speak European languages, this is

just really weird and it's hard to hear.

Uh

>> like a complete mind shift.

>> Yeah. So, you've got to you've got to be

able to pay attention to those tones.

And so, um but the first thing you have

to do is start just collecting words. So

I would point at things my first day, my

first hour, I was pointing at things and

writing down what they said. And that

was the basic linguistics I had had,

phonetics, how to write down sounds of

the world's languages.

>> And when you got there, so on day one,

how do you make a connection? Do you

just show up? Hey, brought you the

Bible. Everyone have a seat. How do you

do this?

>> Well, I I got off and I started handing

candy to the kids. Um, good move.

>> That works. Um, and the people were very

curious because I'm this white guy with

red hair. At that time, I had bright red

hair and uh they found me curious to

look at. And uh so they came around,

they could tell, you know, at least I I

think they thought they could tell that

I was no danger to them. Um they know

how to deal with that very quickly if

they sensed danger. But um uh so then I

would just start pointing at things. I

had I had my pen and paper and I would I

would get a stick and I would say in

English, you know, stick and they know

that I'm trying to communicate

something. So they would say back and I

thought it probably means stick and I

would write that down and then I would

take the stick and drop it and they

would say

and that means stick fell to the ground

and that's what I thought it meant. So

that's how I started.

>> That's what you thought it meant. Um,

what is the reaction to this person

coming in and demanding that they teach

the language?

>> Well, I didn't demand

>> well that you know you you have a

requirement. You can't communicate, but

you're there. So, they're kind enough to

welcome you.

>> Yes.

>> Are you in the actual camp with all

these people?

>> Yeah, I'm in the middle of their

village. The plane let me off on, you

know, landed on the river. I got out.

>> You don't even ask. You just like wander

into their camp.

>> There's no way to contact them ahead of

time.

>> This is crazy. Yeah.

>> And you're just assuming they're not

going to kill you. Is this you?

>> This is the paha. This is a paha

village. Yep.

>> And so this is what it looked like when

you showed up. You're like, "Hi, what's

a stick?"

>> Yeah. Yeah. You land you land on the

river and and you get there and that is

uh that's the pita.

>> Wow.

>> And um

>> Wow.

>> So they're very friendly and they start

talking. Um but of course I don't know

what they say. They just see me as a

very

>> He's got a Ferrari t-shirt on. What's

up?

>> Yeah. They uh river boats go in and give

clothes. If if a river boat hasn't been

there in a long time, they'll all be

naked.

>> Oh, wow.

>> So,

>> and so

like day one, they just accept the fact

that this red-headed dude just showed up

and is hanging out with us now.

>> Yeah, there were a couple of things that

counted in my favor. I was all by myself

and so um giving out candy was a big

factor. Uh they like to chew tobacco. Uh

and I had been told this by somebody who

had been there. So I took in a big long

horn of tobacco. I don't know if you

ever This is really oldfashioned way

>> a horn like a like an animal horn.

>> No, it's it looks like an animal horn,

but it's um it's probably 8 feet 9 ft

long just rolled up tight tobacco

wrapped in latex. And uh Really?

>> Yeah. And you just cut it off for them

and they chew it and they like it. So,

>> um, I would, uh, you know, the ones who

would help me, I would give them a

little bit of tobacco or candy. Um, and

I also brought canned food for me. Um,

and I would trade that to them for fish

and other things that they got. Uh, and

they like that.

>> How long did you stay initially?

>> The first time was just to see what it

was like before I brought my family. So

I stayed 10 days and then I came back

with my family and we stayed a year at

that time. We just stayed there the

whole year.

>> When you say your family, so your wife

and how many kids?

>> Three kids. There they are.

>> How old were the kids when you got

there?

>> Well, um my oldest daughter who there

was about 12 was uh nine and the middle

daughter was six and then the my son was

u one year three years old. So this is

around that time. Um, and so my kids

grow grew up among the Pahhan. Both my

older daughters learned to speak the

language fairly quickly.

>> Wow, that's a risky move.

>> You brought your little kids to the

jungle.

>> Yeah. So my son,

>> what is that decision like? Was that a

difficult decision?

>> Well, today it would be, but I was a

Christian and I believed in miracles and

I believe God would take care of us. And

so I went there and figured he was in

charge. He would take care of us. So my

son got menitis.

>> Uh my my two daughters got malaria. Um I

got malaria. In fact after a few years I

went to San Diego and I I came down with

malaria and in University Hospital San

Diego. They were thrilled because I was

the only person that ever seen with all

three strains of South American malaria

at the same time. Did you have a relapse

of malaria or was that because I have a

friend who got malaria in the Congo and

it came back?

>> It can come back and I've had relapses

but it's been a long time now that I

haven't had relapses. I've taken so much

medicine that supposedly it won't come

back anymore. But I can never give blood

because it's always in my blood.

>> What do they give you? Like what

medicine they giving you? Well, dera

prim primmaquin u straight quinine. Uh

when my wife almost died, uh she weighed

115

pounds and then she got malaria and

almost died. She got down to 76 pounds.

And uh and the doctor told me she's

going to die tonight. We don't have any

way to keep her alive.

>> Oh my god.

>> And uh they they put her on blood

transfusions because you lose a lot of

blood. It kills the blood cells. And uh

they put her on uh you know blood

transfusions and also straight quinine

which caused her to be in agony for

several days of just constant wretching

and it's just quinine is a really bad

experience.

>> But at the end of it she pulled through.

>> She pulled through.

>> Oh my god.

>> Yeah. Yeah. We all pulled through.

>> You had to be like questioning your

decisions. I mean this has to be a

triing you know very difficult time

because you're you chose to be there.

Yeah. And and so we were leaving the

village to find help because my wife and

daughter were dying of malaria at this

time where she got down to 76 pounds.

And my daughter lost a lot of weight,

too. She was just skin and bones. And uh

I'm I'm getting my boat out of there.

And I had never been out by boat. In

fact, I didn't have a boat. We were I

had no idea how to get out of there. So

this Catholic priest came up to see what

the Protestant missionaries were doing.

And I said, "Can I borrow your boat? I

got to get my family out of here." He

had this very narrow aluminum canoe with

a six horsepower Johnson and uh I got my

whole family in there and he just stayed

there in the jungle and let my family

take off in his boat and uh I didn't

know where we were but I was thinking

you know I've read all these books about

missionaries and uh now I'm having a

missionary experience but it wasn't fun.

It was really uh

>> Sounds horrific.

>> It was horrific experience and I just

didn't know what was going to happen.

So your goal was to convert these people

and how long were you there for?

>> Well, I was there um in 1980 I spent the

whole year there. In n in all the other

years from 1977 to 2013 I was there for

three to six months every year. So I was

there a lot and um got sick every time I

went. when I had typhoid fever and all

this stuff,

>> but um uh attacked by snakes and stuff

like that, but um

>> it was um it was just a mindaltering

experience. Things didn't go the way I

thought. Uh and uh the people started

questioning me, you know, they you know,

they were started asking me about why do

you believe in this Jesus you keep

telling us about what's he like?

>> And you're doing this also. You're

translating these concepts from English

to paha

>> from Greek to paha. Uh going from the

Greek New Testament because I was

translating the New Testament. So going

from Greek

>> uh to peda but I'm referencing English

and Portuguese at the same time. Oh my

goodness.

>> I'm staying in there

>> and you expect these people to

understand what you're saying.

>> Yeah. So you know if you're in the

middle of the jungle and and Jesus does

something out in a desert um how do you

describe desert? Isn't their language a

completely different language than ours?

Like in terms of like they they have no

words for color, right?

>> They have no words for direction. They

don't have a left or right,

>> right?

>> So, and this all takes time to find out

because when I went there, I thought

everybody had words for colors.

Everybody had words for numbers.

Everybody had a concept of God,

>> right? They don't have words for

numbers. That's so crazy.

>> Yeah. They don't have

>> Do they have numbers? Do they

>> No numbers. They don't count.

>> How many fish did you catch today, Mike?

A lot.

>> That's it.

>> That's it.

>> A lot or a little.

>> A lot or a little

>> or a good amount.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, in fact, that claim was

really controversial. I've had psycho

linguists and cognitive scientists come

down with me to do experiments.

>> Didn't you get into it with Chsky about

that?

>> Well, I got into it with Chsky about

their grammar.

>> Yes. Because that's right.

>> Chsky made this claim. I've gotten other

people. There are people who find every

claim controversial. So there's some

people can't believe they don't have

numbers. Some people who don't believe

they don't have a concept of God. Other

people who believe they don't who don't

believe they don't have colors. Um but

um Chsky claimed that all languages are

built on a common property called

recursion. And recursion is this English

has it all over the place. So it's the

ability to put one unit inside another

unit of the same type. So take a noun.

If I take the noun truck and the noun

driver and I put them together, I can

form a third word, truck driver. And and

so that's recursion. I put one noun

inside another and I get a third noun.

Or with a sentence, I can say John

spoke. There's no recursion there. I can

say John said that Bill spoke and now

that's got recursion because Bill spoke

is a sentence inside John said that. M

>> and so Chsky um claimed and in my

opinion without doing a lot of homework

on this I mean he just was basing it on

languages that he happened to know uh

which aren't many um that all languages

were built on this it made sense and he

had a principles built into his theory

that required this. So when I came along

and said they don't have it and now I I

know there are other languages that

don't have it. Um, this was like saying

you're wrong.

And for me, a relative nobody to tell

the most famous linguist in history,

somebody that Chomsky was called by the

New York Times the most intent

intellectual alive. Um, to tell him that

he's wrong.

A lot of people found that very weird,

you know, unatic. Yeah. Problematic.

[clears throat] Problematic. But facts

are facts.

>> Yeah. I mean, it should be exciting for

a linguist to look at something that

violates all the laws of other known

languages.

>> It was exciting for some linguists and

really off pissing for a lot of other

linguists.

>> Isn't that gross? That's so gross.

>> Yeah,

>> that is one of the grossest things about

intellectuals, the this gatekeeping of

information and this the appeal to

authority that they're the only person

who could possibly know.

>> Especially when you're talking about

languages. Like, how many languages are

there? There are about 8,000 separate

languages in the world.

>> Okay. How the [ __ ] [laughter] could you

know all the rules to 8,000 languages?

>> We don't have data on more than about

1,200 or so.

>> Well, isn't there also an issue with the

Aboriginal tribes of Australia? Um my

good friend Adam Greenree uh he's from

Australia and he was running a mine

there for a while and worked with a lot

of Aboriginal people and really learned

a lot about their cultures and

>> they they're called mobs like their

tribe is called they call it a mob and

there could be a mob that's just like 30

kilometers over that way. They have no

idea what they're saying. They don't

know the language and it's not written

anywhere and there's hundreds of these.

They're all over the place.

>> Right. and the and the bit of field work

that has been done, there are some

really good Australian linguists trying

to figure out these things, but the

fieldwork that has been done has found

properties that aren't like anything

else we know about. Um, so languages can

vary so much that it's really premature

in my opinion to be writing laws that

languages are supposed to follow all

8,000 of these languages.

>> Well, all you'd have to do is say as far

as we've observed, and then you're okay.

But as soon as you say it has to have

this and if someone says actually a

language that doesn't have this and then

there's a controversy, you're a bad guy

for pointing this out and you're you

know

>> well I had a heretic.

>> I had one of Chsky's followers who was

Brazilian write to the Brazilian Indian

Agency which is where I get my

authorization to visit these tribes and

say this Dan Everett guy he's a racist

and um

>> that's what they always say.

>> Yeah.

>> Isn't that the fun one? Yeah, they

always the moment they want to get rid

of you, you're a racist.

>> Yeah. Well, she was silly because she

said he's trying to reduce the pahas to

primates. And I said, well, in fact, I

am because we're all primates. I'm a

primate. You're a primate. But

>> but it's the thing if Chsky says that

all languages have X. Yes.

>> And I say, "Here's a language that

doesn't have X." Then either A, Chsky's

wrong, or B, these aren't humans. And so

the only person who would claim

>> claim they're not humans is a racist.

>> That's such a crazy way to put it. Yeah,

>> it's so stupid.

>> Yeah, this is typical in science. As I

got more and more into science,

>> it's it's very unfortunate.

>> It's men.

>> It's men and their egos. That's what it

is. It's and I'm sure women as well, but

it prim primarily men.

>> Well, it what you know, you don't get a

lot of money when you're a scientist.

It's not a money-making profession. You

go into the what is the biggest rate of

exchange among scientists? It's ego,

>> right? But it's just so crazy to think

that if it doesn't have this one

characteristic of language that you're

calling them primates. That's not a

value judgment. You're saying it's a

different kind of language. And this is

fascinating.

>> Exactly. That's my take. And many

anthropologists took that. Um this um

you know, so for example um they

originally said that Homo erectus had no

capability for human speech. And I

thought that was kind of a questionable

statement since you know I've read a lot

on Homoctus wrote a book about it and

they don't um

um

they all their accomplishments they had

to have pretty advanced language to

account for the fact that the ocean was

never a barrier for them and so I said

that Homo erectus had language and I

think the evidence supports that but

they don't have the kind of language

Chsky says necessarily

and um so an AR archaeologist in at the

University of Liverpool wrote me and he

says my specialty is homo erectus and I

think you're right. So we wrote a paper

together

>> and then after we wrote the paper he

discovered last year the oldest wooden

structure known in all of human history.

500,000year-old

structure built by Homo erectus in

Zambia. And he showed that it has

interlocking pieces and parts that

nobody ever expected Homo erectus to be

able to do. And their brains weren't

that much smaller than ours. You know,

the average size of a modern human's

brain is about 1,200 cc's for men and

about 950 to,00 cc's for women. And

since we know that men aren't more

intelligent than women, the size of the

brain can't be what's determining that.

Uh, Homoctus had brains of 950 to a,000

cc's, uh, you know, cubic centimeters.

You measure that by taking the skull and

filling it full of sand and seeing how

much sand fits in there. Um, and so they

were able to make these complex

structures and they were able to make

boats and they were able to do all these

things. Uh, yeah, that's that's what

Larry Barham from the University of

Liverpool discovered uh, this structure.

You see the cross piece and he recently

gave a talk to uh, an association, a

world association of archaeologists uh,

to get their judgment on what this could

be and not archaeologists but um,

architects uh, to get their professional

judgment. They were really impressed by

this. They said that's actually a pretty

advanced structure for building um you

know a walkway or a house or

>> we actually discussed this yesterday. I

had a guy on named Michael Button. He's

got a fantastic YouTube channel. It's

all about like sort of the mysteries of

human history. And um we we talked about

the seafaring aspect and how much

evidence there is that these people were

seafaring as much as a million years

ago.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and in my book, How

Language Began, I have uh

>> they had to be communicated.

>> Yeah. You can't There's an archaeologist

in Australia, uh Bedner is his name, and

he um showed by he did experiments and

and they're not exact because you can't

find humans today that don't have any

language, normal humans. Um but he got

humans from different languages who

didn't couldn't communicate with each

other that well to see if they could

build a boat. And and then another

linguist wrote a paper based on some of

this called how much language does it

take to build a boat? And it turns out

you've got to have language to build a

boat. And so if they were building these

boats that could carry water and could

carry as many as 20 people because you

got to have enough to if you find a

colony of Homo erectus on an island that

was always an island. It was never

connected by land. Um there had to be

more than one person that washed up

there on some vegetation. There has to

have been a community.

>> Yeah, Michael brought up that the what

was it? The what organization that did

it? Was it NASA? NASA did a study

because they were trying to figure out

how many people you need to colonize

another planet. And um they they came up

with the number 500. You need a minimum

of 500 to begin a colony,

>> right?

>> In order to have genetic diversity, make

sure you're not having sex with your

cousin, that that kind of jazz.

>> Yeah. So you can't just send a couple

over there, Adam and Eve, right?

>> And expect this to happen.

>> Yeah. How did you feel about that story

when you first heard it? Adam and Eve.

>> Yeah. When you when you were converting,

you're saying you do an acid.

>> I mean, I was one of these guys who I

believe the Bible cover to cover and

even the covers.

>> Uh so

>> we'll get to that in a minute. So, but

go back to how this is all going down

>> with uh the the controversy.

>> Yes. So I started getting hate mail and

then um uh the the article came out when

I first proposed this in the major

journal of anthropology, current

anthropology.

I was in Germany at the time at the Mox

Blanc Institute for Evolutionary

Anthropology and right down the hall

from me was Fonte Po who just won the

Nobel Prize for decoding the genome of

Neanderthalss.

and there was a reporter, a German

reporter from Derpiegel to talk to him

and she found out about my article. So

she walked down the hall after she

interviewed him and interviewed me and

this came out and it started to get

picked up in the press in a lot of

places and so the New Yorker did a big

profile. But then the reaction came and

it wasn't what I expected. I expected

that if you make a proposal that other

scientists, if they're skeptical, which

they have every right to be, are going

to propose experiments to test what

you're saying. And they're going to say,

"Well, if they don't have recursion, you

should find this and you should not find

that and you should get this and this

and this." And I tried to anticipate

that, but that's the kind of objection I

expected. But instead, they said, "I'm a

liar. I'm trying to get publicity." You

know, I had a New York Times reporter.

She called me and she said, "Are do you

try to get publicity?" I said, "Did I

ask you to call me?" I said, "I'm, you

know, you called me." I said, "You know,

I it's an interesting story. If people

want to talk to me, I'm here to talk to

them, but I'm not." I said, 'If I wrote

you at the New York Times and said, "I'm

an interesting person. Interview me."

Would you would that make any

difference?

>> That's not They're not mutually

exclusive. Like, you could be trying to

get attention and publicity because

you've discovered something that's very

important. The idea that you're just

trying to get attention. Are you trying

to get attention?

>> What? What are you talking about? Yeah.

Did that's such a it's so weird that the

intellectuals the the people who are

literally professional thinkers would

fall into these like common human traps

of ego.

>> Yeah. Well, it was a it was a mind uh

blowing u mind um expanding experience

for me to see that intellectuals that I

otherwise admired as deep thinkers about

their subject would not think otherwise

and you know I mean intellectuals it

>> did they ever engage you on the actual

information? Yeah, I had I had um people

from MIT, Department of Brain and

Cognitive Sciences, from Stanford

Department of Psychology, uh from

Columbia University came down at

separate times to run experiments, and

they were well-designed experiments to

test what I said. And um they all came

away saying, you know, it looks like

Dan's right. So, where's the reaction

then? And what is the what do they say

about that? like the people that are

negative about this and the people that

are calling you a racist and all this

saying you're trying to get attention.

What do what are they saying about these

results?

>> They don't refer to them directly, but

if asked they often say that these

people don't like Chsky.

>> U so

>> all of them?

>> Yeah.

>> All of those individual scientists that

are running these studies for you don't

like Chsky and that's why they have

these skewed results.

>> That is one of the many objections that

people raise but by and large they

ignore it. Well, they ignore it. Yeah.

So, they ignore the studies.

>> Yeah. I had Chsky write me some really

nasty emails.

>> You got them? Do you got them still?

>> I have one. Yeah, I do have one. And I I

I [laughter]

asked him um I said, "Why don't we

debate at the Linguistic Society of

America?" I said, "You think I'm an

idiot?" So, here's your chance. You can

show that I'm an idiot. Just we'll

debate and you'll make a fool of me in

five minutes.

>> He's saying he thinks you're an idiot

when you're explaining a language that

he doesn't know.

>> I'm an idiot or I'm a liar. Oh my god.

>> He gave an interview to a Brazilian

newspaper who and he said Dan used to be

a fairly good linguist, but um he is a

charlatan. He's just a 100% charlatan.

And he was interviewed on a Spanish

station and they said, "What do you

think of the contributions of Dan Ever?"

And he said, "They're nothing, nothing,

nothing." And oh my god,

>> he's really popular, you know. So

>> I used to really admire him.

>> Yeah.

>> I used to really admire him. Then I

found out I was close homies with

Jeffrey Epstein. that kind of

>> threw a lot of water on that like what?

>> Yeah.

>> Um but then it was the stance during the

vaccines when he was like people that

weren't vaccinated should be round up

and put into camps. So he had some crazy

positions.

>> Yeah. on the unvaccinated people and

very just misinformed, just completely

misinformed about

whether it was natural immunity or there

was other medications that were treat

that you could use to treat

>> COVID 19 or even the the efficacy of the

vaccine. It was crazy. But that was just

one thing about him. There's just like

his earlier debates like he's got these

fantastic debates. I think it's him and

William F. Buckley.

>> Yeah. Have you ever seen those? I have.

He's so good in those. He's so brilliant

in those. It was a young Chsky and it

like his intellect and his reason. It

was like a breath of fresh air. It was

like super wellinformed and every time

Buckley tried to catch him on something,

he juded him. It was amazing.

>> Yeah. Well, the first two books of Chsky

I read when I started stud, you know,

doing graduate work in linguistics.

>> I read the medium one.

>> Uh what is it? Oh. Um,

a manufacturer of consent.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah. But he had

>> the first book of his I read it was in

linguistics as aspects of the theory of

syntax. And if you're a linguist and

you're studying linguistics, that's just

genius. It is just brilliant. And then

the next book which he published the

same year was American Power and the New

Mandarins which was about Vietnam. And

that was also brilliant. And you know

for one person to publish two books like

that in one year.

>> Wow.

>> I mean that's just first order genius.

So I admired him.

>> What goes wrong with a guy like that

though? If a guy can be that smart, how

could he not be curious? How could he

not like when you say something that

flies in the face of everything that

he's taught? How could he not be curious

and want to talk to you? And if you're

right, why would he not want to like do

something with you? Like if I found

someone like you and I was I mean I

would have hoped that I would be the

same way as I am now. And I had an

opportunity I would say we should do a

podcast together. We could explain this.

This is crazy.

>> Right. I invited him to the paha. He was

coming to Brazil. And I said hey why

don't you come with me to the paha and

I'll ask them any question you want me

to ask them. We can talk about it there.

And he said I don't do that kind of

thing. I don't go I don't do field work.

Uh so he didn't come.

>> Good move. You don't want typo fever and

[ __ ] malaria bit by snakes st by

jaguars. True. You know,

>> see, he's smart. [laughter]

>> It's just very disappointing when people

are really brilliant. He's a brilliant

guy and essentially I mean, especially

rather was really brilliant when he was

young. It's just so sad when you see

someone like that just behaving with ego

because he was the the expert. He was

the foremost linguist on planet Earth.

when the New York Times is saying things

like you're the most important

intellectual alive and you have people

hanging off every word as though it

comes from, you know, the Oracle of

Apollo. Yeah. Um

>> I I assume that it affects your ego to

some degree.

>> 100%. Most people, especially back then

when there's no internet to check you,

you know, you can get a really distorted

perception of how you stand. Also,

everyone's kissing your ass. you're

surrounded by other people that are

trying to climb the same ladder you're

on. You're in a very lofty position of

authority and power.

>> You know, he wrote letters of

recommendation for me for my first job

in the US.

>> Really?

>> And he wrote a letter of recommendation

when I came up for promotion to tenure

at the University of Pittsburgh.

>> Why would you do that if you're an

idiot?

>> But I hadn't been an I wasn't yet an

idiot. [laughter]

>> I became an idiot.

>> You became an idiot when you disagreed

with him. Yeah. Meanwhile, haha, you're

right. That's what's funny. In the end,

you're right.

>> Yeah. Well, he um you know, I've I've

had so many exchanges in journals and

magazines and things with his followers

over the years and with him um that um

you know, I go give a talk somewhere and

people say, you know, I hope you're

ready because there's a lot of skeptic a

lot of skeptics in this audience. And I

say, yeah, I don't think they're going

to ask me any new questions. I've done

this so much now that they're going to

ask me.

I said, I'll be surprised if anybody

asks me a question that I haven't heard

from Chsky.

>> And when you have these conversations

with Chsky and you lay out how the peda

use their language and what they and how

it works, what was his reaction to that

that you're just incorrect?

>> Well, the first time I talked to him

about it, he had not made this claim

about recursion. This was in 1984.

>> Oh. I was a visitor at MIT linguistics

and my office was next to his and so I

talked to him several times that year

and I said um I don't think their

language has this property and he said

you know he was drinking coffee and

looking at the board he had a blackboard

right by his desk and he said hm wonder

what the consequences of that are and

then one of his PhD students told me oh

you really got known thinking what is

this uh he he found that very intriguing

but then when he came out with the

proclamation that all languages had to

have it. Then I became an idiot.

>> Oh god, that's so disappointing.

[sighs]

>> [ __ ] people.

>> Yeah,

>> [ __ ] people. Even the brightest

minds, they're just Ego is such a

[ __ ]

>> Yeah. Well, it's it's really

disappointing because, you know, he was

like my idol for the first part of my

linguistic career

>> and I wasn't

>> Did you try to have a conversation with

him after he denounced you? Did you try

to like oneon-one get together with him?

>> Well, we exchanged emails. So, for

example, in in his face, like right in

front of him. Did you try to do that?

>> Uh, he never had I had always told him

when I was going through Cambridge that

I was coming and maybe he and I could

talk and he always made time and we

talked, you know, I I'd be living

somewhere else and I'd come to MIT and

he'd talk to me. And my first PhD

student uh is a full professor at MIT

and he started off in linguistics. uh

he's in co he's in brain and cognitive

sciences now but so I had a good

relationship with Chsky but then

suddenly he never had time to meet with

me

>> so after his proclamation

>> right

>> okay

>> he had no time to meet with me his wife

died and I wrote him a letter saying I'm

so sorry that Carol died this is really

terrible I know you guys have been

together for so long and he wrote back

and said thank you so much that means a

great deal to me and then I saw this

article in a S Paulo paper where he

called me a charlatan so I wrote him

right back and I did you call me a

charlatan? And he said, "Yeah, you are a

charlatan." I said, "You should be

ashamed of yourself." He said, "No, you

should be ashamed of yourself for saying

things, you know, that can't be right."

>> Oh,

>> so that was the last exchange we had.

>> Silly gnome. You should have had that in

front of them. I mean, just I think

people say things in emails that I think

it's a terrible way to communicate.

>> I agree completely.

>> You know, that's

>> especially with insults. It's just like

it's such a

>> waiting and then you're waiting on the

other person's insult in return like

>> God stop it. Are you [ __ ] 12 years

old?

>> Yeah.

>> Stop.

>> So the the author Tom Wolf um the last

book he wrote was called Kingdom of

Speech. And he talked about two

controversies. Darwin versus Alfred

Russell Wallace and me versus Chsky.

>> Oh wow. And so he has a very he has some

bizarre absolutely wrong ideas about

where language came from. He's not a

linguist, but he did cover that

controversy extremely well. And um you

know, Tom used to call me every week

when he was writing the book. I didn't

even know what it was about to ask to

get the details right, but he was just

shocked how this happened.

>> Yeah. Again, it's disappointing, but

even [snorts] the most brilliant humans

are just human,

>> right? Right. And they're subject to all

the flaws and all the traps that the

human mind could fall into.

>> Yeah. I've I've often said uh after long

experience that intelligence is no

antidote for stupidity,

>> right?

>> You can be both.

>> Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Especially when

ego is involved.

>> Yeah.

>> So, how many people how many of the pira

did you convert?

>> NOBODY [laughter]

>> in in decades. They weren't interested.

They were they were so totally because

my claims did not meet their standard of

evidence. They have a high standard of

evidence and I didn't meet that

standard.

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>> But don't they have like mystical

creatures and stuff that they believe

live in the forest?

>> They do. And when I first got there as a

Christian, I called these things spirits

because that's all I knew how to care

about.

>> How do they describe them?

>> They describe them as distinct beings.

They don't say they're spiritual or

anything like that, but they you see

something like you see maybe there's

another Indian hunting, you know, from a

different tribe hunting in your jungle

because there are some that are close

enough to be hunting in the same area.

You see them, but you don't see them.

Well, they go behind a tree or

something.

So, you say, "Oh, that's one of these

things. I just saw one of these things."

Um,

they don't put it to the test

necessarily, but they

>> these things.

>> So, they have three major types of

entities besides humans. Uh, and they

have different types of humans. I'm one

type and they're another type. Um, and

so they have things.

>> How do they make the distinction? Is it

the appearance

>> for for humans? Yes, it's it's

appearance. Uh well, actually for the

other entities, it's appearance, too.

So, for me, I'm white. And white means

you don't have blood. So, they've asked

[laughter] me, they said, "So, you do

you have blood?" And they they asked me

one time after I've been there for

years, they said, "Do Americans die?"

And I said, "Yeah, we die." But you're

really old and you haven't died yet, you

know. And and so I cut my

>> How old were you at the time?

>> Probably 45.

>> And they thought you were a goner.

>> Yeah. because we aged differently. I was

already had gray hair, you know, not all

over,

>> right? They look a lot different when

they're 45.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They're all still 100% black

hair and

>> Oh, they thought you were a goner with

the white hair.

>> So, uh they have an expression ma almost

about to fall to the ground. And that's

the way they described me. Wow.

>> But um so Americans are one way,

Brazilians are another way. But then

there are these things. Some of them are

called fast mouths. And so they they

talk in a high-pitched voice and at

night you hear somebody, you know, a

creature talking in a high falsetto

voice into the village. And I say,

"What's that?" They said, "Oh, that's a

fastmouth." They they I said, "But I I'm

seeing it and it looks like a pita." Oh,

yeah. They look just like us, but

they're not. They're not us. And um so

this is where we come to the border of

fact and fiction. And we draw fairly we

try to draw a fairly rigid line between

fact and fiction in our society and in

most European societies. But to them um

they don't have to um have the full

range of experience with this um to

describe it. And so a fastmouth is just

a fastmouth and they talk in a and you

know who they are because they talk in a

high falsetto voice and they go naked.

Whereas pahas if often go naked but if

they have clothes they'll wear them and

the fast mouths will never wear clothes.

Um and the fast mouths are also sexually

promiscuous. So I had a reporter with me

in the jungle from Guo magazine in

Germany and he said can I see one of

these fast mouths? And I told I told one

guy I said he wants to see a fastmouth.

And he said I'll go get one. and he

walks off into the jungle and then he

the same guy comes back in naked um

talking in this falset subtto voice and

starts trying to hump the reporter

[laughter]

and the reporter says oh I'm feeling

very uncomfortable I don't like I said

you asked for it I mean you know I mean

that's the way they are and so I finally

told the guy I said you know he doesn't

he doesn't want this he doesn't want to

see the fast mouth anymore so he talks

me in a high falsetto and he walks off

and he comes back on with his clothes on

and I said, "Uh, did you see the fast

mouth?" He said, "Was there a fast mouth

here?" I was gone. You know

>> what?

>> But it's the same guy.

>> What did you take of that? Like what did

you think that they were playing a prank

on you? Did you think that this is like

some sort of a psychotic state that they

fall into? It is a liinal area between

being say theater and being reality. And

I don't know if they feel possessed. I

don't think they have a concept of

possession. I've I've asked them and

I've investigated this and I've never

seen that. But they definitely believe

that they're gone and this other

creature is there in their place.

>> Do they have memory of when they become

a fastmouth?

>> They deny it. I've tried to get them

[laughter] to talk about it. I don't

know. I wasn't here.

>> Everyone denies it.

>> Everybody denies it.

>> Wow. Do you think that being a fastmouth

is like almost like a license to go and

do stuff you're not supposed to do? Go

[ __ ] everybody and

>> Yeah.

>> You think that's what it is?

>> Yeah. Because they change they also

change names very frequently. So if I go

back there now, all my old friends will

have different names and anything done

under the old name is, you know, you'll

say, "You remember when you did this?"

Well, I didn't do that. That was the guy

with this name. So they don't even

claim. So the concept of constancy of

identity throughout time

>> they deny this.

>> So when do they choose to make a new

name or do do they get a new name

assigned to them?

>> They can um children often get new names

for different phases of life. But adults

if you if you're out in the jungle and

you think you saw something and you

can't explain it, you might take a new

name. [laughter]

>> So

>> not a bad idea, right? This is a way of

coping with things.

>> Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. If

something really traumatic happens to

you and you want to like reclaim your

life, you change your name, start over

from scratch,

>> right? And and some of us do it in

American culture, but it's a lot harder

legal process to change your name.

>> How often do they get killed by jaguars?

>> U nobody's ever been killed in my almost

50 years coming and going, but they've

many of them have been attacked.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Like one guy was coming back and

um from getting Braz Bra Brazil nuts and

so he had a big basket and so his head's

down a bit with the tump line and the

basket probably weighs, you know, 60

lbs. Um and suddenly a jaguar jumps out

of the tree right on his back, but it

got the basket and not him and it pulled

the basket off his head and um he shot

it with an arrow.

>> Oh my god. But they tell me that when

you shoot a jaguar with an arrow, the

jaguar forgets about you and keeps

trying to get the arrow out. Um, and by

that time you've got three or four more

arrows in it. [sighs]

>> So these guys are deadly accurate with

with bows and arrows.

>> So if they did that and like maybe they

got attacked, would they change their

name after that?

>> They could. And I So I don't completely

have it down to a formula. Oh,

>> okay. So it's not it's not like when

they're uncomfortable. Sometimes it's

just like it's time. Tom that Bob

becomes

>> it's a subjective reaction to objective

experience that causes them to do this

>> and they do they announce it to the

village

>> um they announce it to their like their

spouse or their kids and then the word

spreads and so I'll come back in I came

back in after six months and my buddy my

main language teacher um his his name

was when I left it was

which means blood eater and when I got

back I said you know and the nickname is

co Hey co, you know, I asked him, "How

you doing?" And nobody responds. He

didn't turn and look at me or anything.

And I called him again and again. He

said, "You talking to me?" I said,

"Yeah." He said, "That's not my name."

And uh so I had to learn his new name

was Kapali. Uh you know, which u and he

was serious about it. He wouldn't

respond anymore to that old name.

>> Wow.

>> How odd. The first time that happened,

were you like, "Oh my god, these people

are [ __ ] crazy."

>> No, I thought I'm pretty stupid. I did

can't even remember their names.

>> Wow. That was my first reaction.

>> How how quickly did the this happen from

you first like encountering these

people?

>> Well, I um I would be gone for three or

four months at a time and then come back

cuz I was I was doing linguistic.

>> Oh, so you never experienced it like as

it was happening. You only

>> one time there was you you really need

to spend at least a full year there so

you can see all the seasons and all the

changes. Then I saw some of the stuff

but many of the name changes happened

when I was out of the village. Some of

them happened when I was in the village,

but my best friends, their name changes

seemed to happen when I was out of the

village. And they were very serious

about enforcing those new name changes.

[laughter]

>> [sighs and snorts]

>> So if you ask them to tell stories about

their childhood, you get these very

vague stories and they'll say, you know,

but I'm talking about this person, you

know,

>> or they'll tell me, you know, they

changed my name twice, you know,

[laughter] and so they name me and they

so a guy comes up to me and he says that

name is rotten, which is the same word

you use for spoiled food. You know, your

name is spoiled. Um, so I'm going to

give you this name. And then I got then

one time I was in there and was staying

with this guy. He's just wearing a loin

cloth and uh the other pet fearing

because he's this fierce guy and uh he

says you're really old. I you know they

always tell me that. He said you're

really old. And I said I'm not that old.

He said yeah you are. My dad's dead and

you're about the same age as he was. You

know they don't know what the age is. Um

so he said I'm going to give you my

dad's name and I which is just the name

of his dad. So that's been my name ever

since. I've had that name now for about

15 years.

>> And when you go back, what happens if

they want to switch it up again? You

have to learn a new name.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> It could easily happen, right?

>> Yeah, it could easily happen. It just

depends on which village you go to and

which person you're talking to.

>> How what was what is the population of

these people?

>> When I first got there, it was under

200. Uh, and now it's around 700 to 800.

Uh, they've grown because they've had

more medical assistance. I gave them

medical assistance, my wife and I, for,

you know, 20 years. And so your goal was

to convert them to Christianity, right?

And when it's so no one's buying it. So

what are you doing?

>> What is what do your days consist of

while you're there?

>> Well, my days consist of um linguistic

analysis and uh translation effort. So

I'll work with somebody and so I so I

work with this guy for example and uh we

went through the story of Jesus. I had

translated a large part of the Gospel of

Luke and I tell him this story and then

I showed film strips, you know, made by,

you know, where Jesus looks like an

American and has a beard and all this

stuff and I and I explained it. They

don't make a difference between drawings

and photographs. So they figured, well,

this must be Jesus. He saw Jesus. So

that night after I had told him all this

and we had seen the film strips, uh, his

village was across the river. I lived in

one village and across the river was

another village and they went across the

river and all night long I heard

screaming and yelling and people running

around and women laughing and then women

screaming and the next morning he comes

back to work with me and I said so what

was going on all night he said oh Jesus

came to our village [laughter]

I said what he said yeah he came to our

village you know and he had a penis

three feet long [laughter] they don't

have words for feet so he just I'm just

going by his hand thing he said and he

was trying to stick it in all the women

And so uh you know the women don't want

to know anymore about Jesus.

>> What

this is their way of rejecting it. Um so

I never expected that when I in all my

Bible training and things

>> did they say so they won't wouldn't

admit if one of them became like they

become a fast talker if they just became

Jesus.

>> Right.

>> But that could have been what happened.

One guy

>> I'm sure that's what happened.

>> So one guy just decided I'm Jesus.

>> Yeah.

>> But everybody took him. You're Jesus.

Yeah.

>> And this is what Jesus is trying to do.

>> Oh boy.

>> But they they would ask questions like,

um, you know, hey Dan, uh, what does

Jesus look like? Is he brown like us or

is he white like you? And I say, well,

you know, some people say he was brown

like you and some people say he was

white like me. And they said, yeah,

yeah, but you've seen him. What did he

look like? And I said, well, I never saw

him. Well, your dad saw him. No, my dad

never saw him. He lived a long time ago.

I don't know anyone who's ever seen

Jesus. And they said, you don't know

anyone who's ever seen him. and you're

just talking about him the whole time,

telling us about him. They said, "We

don't want to hear about this anymore."

[laughter]

And and that was like,

>> but you at the time were a believer.

You're a true believer.

>> Yeah.

>> So, when did that start to slip away?

>> It started to slip away uh from two

sides. One, I was spending a lot of my

time in the intellectual world and

trying to do serious linguistic science.

And it slipped away mainly, however, by

constant interaction with the pita

because as I gotten to know these people

over the years, uh these are really

smart people. They're very intelligent

people. They they had me figured out

before I had them figured out. And they