Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,

[music] where we revisit past episodes

for the most potent and actionable

science-based tools for mental health,

physical health, and performance.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stamford School of Medicine. And now for

my discussion with Rick Rubin. Great to

have you here today, Rick.

>> Thank you for having me. It's a

pleasure. Of all the topics in science

and in particular in neuroscience, I

confess that creativity is the most

difficult one to capture. As I went into

your book, the example that you give,

this idea that ideas and creativity are

a little bit like a cloud. If you look

at it at one moment, you might think

that it looks like one thing, but then

you look at it a moment later, it could

be quite a bit different. And if you

look at an hour later, it very well

could be gone. How did that come to you?

And how does it serve you in trying to I

don't want to say extract but trying to

access creativity.

>> I think the best way to think about it

is like a dream. It's like if you think

about your dreams they don't necessarily

make sense.

When you wake up you'll you might

remember part but not the whole thing.

Then if you start writing them down

they'll come back and they may not make

sense to you. You know maybe someday in

the future you'll be able to look back

and understand what they mean and maybe

not. And that's sort of how this the art

making uh process works is like we're

making things and we're looking for a

feeling in ourselves. It could be a

feeling of excitement or enthusiasm, a

feeling of interest, a feeling of

curiosity. I want to know more. It's not

an intellectual process. It's a

different thing. I think language is

insufficient to

to drill down on creativity. It's more

um it's closer to magic than it is uh

science.

>> Do you think kids are more are just by

definition and by design more creative

than adults?

>> Yes. Kids are they're open and they

[clears throat] have no baggage. They

don't have any belief system. They don't

know how things are supposed to work.

They just see what is. Most of us select

from

an endless number of data points

available to us to well as a as a

species to make sure that we don't die

and to procreate and to feed ourselves

are probably the primary functions

first. And then we learn things about

what's right and what's wrong. and we

learn things about uh how to do certain

things [clears throat]

or we're inspired by someone who makes

something we love and we want to do it

the way they do it. And all of those

things undermine the purity of the

creative process. They can be um tools

to

build your skill set to be able to do it

yourself. Like if you're a a singer, you

might imitate a singer you really like

for a while to get good at it and then

eventually come to find your own voice.

But if you're 3 years old or 5 year

years old and you try singing, you're

not singing like anyone else. You're

you're singing with your own your own

voice. And when you make something,

you're making it based on not knowing.

And I I think I had the advantage early

in my career of starting making music

without any experience, which was

helpful because I didn't know what rules

I was breaking. I was doing things that

other people wouldn't do. When something

feels creatively right, let's say in the

studio or maybe even you're listening to

something that somebody sent you, and

again, this could be about writing or

comedy or, you know, science or

podcasting for that matter. How do you

say keep going that way when they might

not even recognize that they did it? And

I'm guessing a lot of times they don't.

>> I I'll try to be in a in a setting where

as we're talking about it, we can engage

with it in that moment. Let's say I was

producing your new record and you played

me something and I had some thoughts

about it. It wouldn't be so helpful for

me to tell you what those were. it'd be

better for us to wait till we're in a

place where we could try things and see

where it goes. I wouldn't rely on

language to do it. It would be more of a

making a suggestion is something that's

actionable. We try it and then we have

more data. It's that simple. So much of,

you know, when we go to school, it's to

get us to

follow the rules. And in art, it's

different because the the rules are

there as a scaffolding to be um chipped

away as need be. Sometimes they're

helpful, sometimes they're not.

Understanding how you feel in the face

of other voices without second-guessing

yourself is probably the single most

important

um thing to practice as an artist or

skill set to develop as an artist is to

know how you feel and own your feelings.

If I'm undermining my taste for some

commercial idea or uh it it defeats the

whole purpose of doing this. This is not

that's not what this process is about.

This process is

I'm doing me and I'm showing you who I

am and you can like it or not. But

either way, this is still how I see it.

>> In your book, you describe again when

you're thinking about the creative

process as a cloud. For me again, it

serves as such a powerful anchor. And

then I think about the the biology, the

neurobiology of like strategy formation

or strategy implementation. And then

almost by sheer luck or miraculously, I

turn a few pages later into the book and

there's a description of how animals

that are trying to accomplish something.

eat, mate, find water, the requirements

of living. It requires a narrow visual

focus. This is something my lab is kind

of obsessed with and I've been obsessed

with. And in that more narrow visual

focus, we know that the the playbook

becomes more narrow. Now, at some point,

in order to come up with a new creative

idea, that means broadening vision is

essential in some way or broadening

thinking. Well, it could either be a

broadening or a narrowing, but it's

changing the aperture from the standard

to present something new that maybe you

already knew but didn't know you knew

it. It's not unlike what a comedian

does. You know, comedian makes you

laugh. Usually what they're saying, it's

outrageous, but you know that it's

right. You know, just no one says it

that way or no one has said it that way

before. But it's always the truth in it

that makes it funny. Recognizing

something that seems really obvious once

you see it, but seems like nobody else

sees it or no one else points it out.

>> So do you think nowadays the fact that

one can create something and quote

unquote release it quickly? I can put

something out onto Twitter or Instagram

now and I will get immediate feedback

which is external feedback of course but

then I can iterate on the basis of that

feedback. Do you think that's

problematic for the larger opportunity

for creativity?

>> I don't think it's wrong or right. It's

just it's more information that you can

use or not use and use it in a useful

way and you know you can make something

and put it out and people can not like

it and you're like they still don't get

it here. I'm going to I got to go

harder. There could be different stories

that happen at the same time where

you're making something and you have an

idea of what it is and then other people

engage with it and they have a different

idea of what it is and they like it for

a different reason than you did or

dislike it for a reason different than

the reason you like it. We can't control

any of those things. The only part of it

that we can control is how we relate to

the thing that we make. And any external

information that undermines the clarity

of that connection

is probably bad for the art is my is my

guess. All I've ever tried to make was

something I like or something that I

felt like was missing as a fan that I

wanted and I nobody was making it. So I

I'll make it. When I listen to an album

or a song, I mean, I have to assume that

there at some point it becomes

not strategy development or creativity,

but strategy implementation. Like songs

are going to come in this order. And

like at what point does one decide,

okay, like now's the time to get into

that more narrow focus of of effort.

Like we've got it, let's run with this.

because there is a component of the

creative process that involves packaging

and finishing and is that part less

satisfying to you or is it just all part

of the same larger arc?

>> It's all part of the same It's It's

nice. There's a good feeling. There's

usually a good feeling when something is

done. It's a commitment because up until

the time that you say it's done, you can

keep experimenting and changing it. You

know, if you if you think, well, maybe

tomorrow I can make it better, then it's

not finished. and you keep thinking that

for a long time, you can do that forever

and never never put out anything.

Getting to the point where you're ready

to sign off is a good feeling. One of

the things I talk about in the book is

um because it is a difficult thing to do

because it's fun to play and it's fun to

maybe it's not the best it could be yet,

you know, um

to use whatever the next project is

going to be as motivation to finish the

one you're working on. Now,

>> I'm very interested in, you know, your

process when it comes to going from

project to project and and you know,

you're going to be doing work with

somebody. Do you have a process for

removing the functions of the day and

the what you were doing last week and

what's going on and how do you clear the

static? What are some of the operational

steps that you think might be more um

generalizable to regardless of where

some somebody in you know um Africa is

listening to this?

>> I would say when I'm when I engage in a

particular project whatever it is I I

dedicate

all of myself for that period of time,

whatever it is, whether it be 20 minutes

or whether it be 5 hours, whatever it

is, total focus and no outside

distraction whatsoever.

And when I leave that process, I do my

best not to think about it when I'm away

from it. I don't bring any materials

with me. I don't leave the studio with

works in progress and spend time

listening to them during the day or

looking for ideas. I I stay as far away

from it when I'm not directly engaging

in it as possible. And in the best of

situations, I have something else to

totally engage myself in in between. So

instead of working on project A for 5

hours and then leaving and doing

nothing, I'm hoping to engage in a

project B or B, C, and D with all of

myself before going back to project A

again.

>> Even though you're disengaged,

do you believe that your subconscious is

working it through?

>> I believe so. I believe so. And I think

in general to stew over a problem is not

the way to solve a problem.

think to hold

the problems lightly. And when I say a

problem, you know, when we're when we're

starting a project, there's a question

mark at the beginning of every project.

I I I'm always anxious when I start a

new project because I have no idea

what's going to happen. I never know.

There's always a sense of anxiety

because I know whatever's going to

happen is completely out of my control.

Something either interesting or not will

appear and then we're going to follow

that wherever it goes. And until

something appears for us to follow,

I have a lot of anxiety. Even though I

know, even though it has never not come,

you know, it has come every time, but

there's something about it cuz I also

feel like there might be expectation on

me that I'm going to make it happen. And

I know that's not happening. That's not

how it works.

>> So what I keep coming back to is that

I'm imagining in my mind have two ends

of the continuum. one that is about

fairly narrow focus training training

strategy implementation cultivating

craft building craft and then the other

side is this the cloud and so we're

taking this cloud and we're we're

deciding what things are

>> yes we go through our lives

doing this all day with everything we

see if it's something we don't know and

something we're not familiar with first

thing is is

this doesn't make sense then what we do

is without thinking, we create a story

that explains what just happened

a hypothetical. Oh, maybe he's running

cuz his dog ran away and he's chasing

his dog. Maybe that's why he's running.

And as soon as we have that thought of

what it might be, we relax because now

it's not just a guy running, and this is

weird, but it's a guy running. Oh, he's

probably running after his dog. And now

we register that story that we just made

up without even knowing we were making

it up as what happened. And then later

in the day if someone says, "Yeah, do

you see that guy running out of box?"

Like, "Yeah, he was chasing his dog. I

saw that." And you you won't even

realize that it was the maybe

hypothetical story that was the first

possible explanation that allowed you to

continue walking. Our whole lives are

reacting to things, making up a story of

what we think may have happened without

realizing that's what we're doing, and

then living the rest of our lives as if

that thing that we made up really

happened. And we never know. That leads

us to we can't know much. Do you know

what I'm saying? Our resolution is so

low on everything. We're grasping at

straws. We have no idea. We have no

idea. And there's great power in knowing

that because if you think you know

what's going on,

chances are you're being deceived.

Not because somebody's deceiving you,

but because they're telling you what

they see and they don't know.

>> It's all Do you know what I'm saying?

It's all made up. Everything that we

everything we know is made up. Maybe

maybe it's true. It's This brings us to

pro wrestling. It's it's it's the reason

that pro wrestling is closer to reality

than anything else we can watch or any

other content. It's we know it's made

up.

We know that it's a performance.

It's storytelling.

And

that's how everything is. Except we

think wrestling's fake and the world is

real. Wrestling's real and the world's

fake. I do want to ask you about

wrestling. So, I have questions

specifically about wrestling, but it's

really about process.

>> Yeah.

>> What is the deal with your relationship

to wrestling?

>> Uh, I think it it maintains that kind of

playfulness. Anything is possible. We

expect the unexpected all the time in

wrestling. And it's a way to have a kind

of a feeling of

the energy of a sport

with with no competition. It's everyone

is working together to put on the best

show they can. So, it's more like a

ballet than it is like a sporting event.

>> I actually think uh the way you describe

um wrestling as you know it's the energy

of the sport. It's not the whether or

not it's this move or that move or who

wins or who loses. It's the energy and

I'm guessing it's the energy that it

creates in you

>> as an observer. Yes. It's the energy it

creates in me and the reality that it's

honest in what it is in a world where

seemingly nothing is honest at what it

is. In some ways, it's comforting and

there's still this mystery of like, wow,

I wonder if that's true or not because

we never really know. Someone gets hurt.

Did they really break their back or are

they just going on vacation? We don't

know. We'll never know. It's

fascinating. When you wake up in the

morning, um, are your thoughts

immediately structured or do you enjoy

the kind of clearing of the clouds?

>> It's a it's a slow process for me to

wake up and I like that. I like

not engaging too much too soon.

>> Does it [clears throat] become more

structured as the day goes on? Does your

thinking become um more structured

around projects and plans? I try to um

deal with things that need dealing with

after that and in preparation for going

to work and then when I go to work it's

more like this free thing where I'm

again hoping something good comes uh

welcoming something good paying

attention and maybe trying to will it to

happen but knowing I don't have the

ability to make it happen I can just be

present for it and be ready if it does

arrive. Obviously deadlines are relevant

time of day, right? There's only so many

hours in the day where one can stay in

the groove or this like readiness to

receive. Have you ever found yourself in

that mode where you're kind of grinding

like ah like here we are like okay I'm

not coming home for dinner tonight. It's

the next we're going to push. We're like

put on the coffee pot kind of thing.

>> A lot a lot in the over the course of my

life a lot not as much now. And one of

the things that I discovered through

working on the book was we're not

required to treat the different phases

of work in the same way. Whereas before

I did before everything was in this

state of play. Everything had an a wide

openen time schedule. It happens when it

happens. If it takes 2 years or 3 years,

it doesn't matter. It's not about that.

It's only about this thing has to be

great. And what I came to realize in

working on the book is that there there

are different phases. And the first

phase is this seed collecting phase

which is kind of an ongoing part of life

in general. I do that always whether I'm

whether I'm working on something or not.

I'm always in the seed collecting phase

and there's no deadline or uh anything

that interests me that I think I want to

learn more about or has potential to be

something anything I hear something

think hm [clears throat] I'd like to

read more about that or I wonder if I

wonder if there's a movie about that is

there a movie about that if not maybe

there's a movie to be made you know like

again I want this is something I want in

my life let's see if it exists if it

doesn't exist then maybe that's

something interesting to pursue um but I

know that the desire is there because I

have it. So in the seed phase, there's

no deadlines. It's just a wide open

part. And then the next phase is called

the experimentation phase where you

where you start experimenting to see

what the seeds want to do. You're

involved, but you're not really

dictating the action. You're you're

setting the stage for something to

happen, but it's not about you yet. It'd

be like the equivalent of you'd plant

the seed, you would water it, you'd make

sure it was in the sun, and you'd wait.

Um, so you're involved, but you can't

make it grow, you know, and then when it

sprouts and it grows and or if it turns

into a plant, then you can look at the

plants like, okay, how does this plant,

what's the potential of this plant? And

then you and then that the third phase

is the crafting phase where it's like

okay I have this plant maybe I'm going

to trim it or maybe I'm gonna uh combine

it with these other plants to make some

something else with it. Now it's like

material that you have and then finally

is the the completion or or finishing

phase which is the final edit getting to

the version of it the version of it

that's the one that you can share with

the world if if that's something you're

going to do. And I've come to realize

that by the time you're going into the

completion phase, you can have a

deadline and it won't hurt the project.

In fact, it might help the project. And

I didn't know that before. So, I've

worked on projects that have gone longer

than they necessarily needed to and

maybe not in the best interest of the

project because I didn't know that. I

didn't understand that that the timing

of that because I because I am so aware

of the necessity in the experimental

phase to not have a deadline

that I assumed that that held through

the whole project. It's not a clear

phase one finishes and then you start

phase two, phase two finishes and then

you start phase three. You move back and

forth between them. I'm collecting seeds

all the time. I'm always in phase one.

And then probably to some degree there's

always some version of experimentation

going on. Maybe not now, but if

something's on a list of things I want

to look at, hopefully I'll get get to

the list and give them some

experimentation and see what they can

turn into. And then if they do turn into

something, then they get to the crafting

phase where it's more, okay, now I have

this thing. What do what do I know about

this kind of thing? What can I match

this with? What can I use this for? How

can I be involved as a craftsman? By the

end of the crafting phase or deep into

the crafting phase,

you can start seeing the end. You know,

you can start seeing an end. And then

you can even dictate an end. But I

recommend if you do, just dictate it for

you, not for anyone else. Because if

something comes up where you learn if if

you uh [clears throat]

set a deadline, a public deadline, and

then a new discovery happens along the

way and you realize, oh, this could

actually be much better than I thought,

but I need more time. It's harder to do

that if you set the deadline.

>> The chapter on self-doubt was really

interesting to me. I'll read the first

sentence of it um which is that

self-doubt lives in all of us

>> and while we may wish it was gone, it is

there to serve us. Uh and it goes on to

describe how to um dance with

self-doubt. As one gets better at their

craft, you can imagine self-doubt goes

down. I think that's the perception of a

lot of people, right? You get better

what you're doing. Self-confidence goes

up, self-doubt goes down. But I think

you and I both know a number of people

who are successful enough to know that

often times there's a mirror image to

that where people feel pressure because

they did it once, now they got to do it

again.

>> Self-doubt is a it's like a um

it's a check on yourself. It can either

be really helpful or it can undermine

you. So, it's something we all have and

if we let it undermine us, then we don't

make anything and that's not good. But

when used as a a balancing tool in our

lives, it serves a great function. I

think the the phrases in the book, you

can doubt your way to a great work, you

know, to a masterpiece.

>> Have you ever encountered music that

really works well live but just does not

work in a recording? You don't have to

name names.

>> Yeah, I don't think so. I feel like

maybe there are some artists who are

great live who've never captured it well

on record. The Grateful Dead's a good

example of a band where I feel like

their albums are not their strong point,

but they're, if you hear live

recordings, they're really interesting

and really different from each other.

And that's kind of part of what makes

the Grateful Dead interesting is their

unpredictability. They're looking for

something

>> and sometimes they find it

>> and if you're there when they find it,

it feels exciting. It's not just

following a script. It's like something

is really happening. It's a it's a real

moment. Something that I aim for in the

studio

is to create real moments that when you

hear them, they don't necessarily sound

perfect. They sound like something that

really happened and in that moment

something happened and it's a special

moment. It's it's really what it's how

jazz works as well. The way you describe

um experiences going by in time and or

or things emerging in time and the

creative process being a way of

capturing those moments was beautifully

captured in the in the analogy you gave

about a kind of a con a conveyor belt

going by. I'll just read it to be beware

of the assumption that the way you work

is the best way simply because it's the

way you've done it before. Maybe you

could elaborate on this a little bit. I

mean, we want to have, you know,

mechanisms and routines we can trust.

>> Yeah.

>> But this is a, I think, an important

warning.

>> Yeah. When something works,

it's easy to be fooled into believing

that's the way to do it or that's the

right way. It's just a way and it's just

a way that happened to work that time.

This plays into when you get advice from

people who have more experience than

you. The advice that they're giving you

is not based on your life or your

experience. It's based on their life and

their experience that have very

different data points than yours.

So

maybe they're giving you good advice,

but maybe they're giving you good advice

for them and not giving you good advice

for you. I think it's hard enough to

even figure out what's right for

ourselves and if we do somehow crack the

code of what's right for us,

be happy we have it and then still know

I wonder if that's the only way. Maybe

there's an even better way that we're

not considering.

>> I forget the exact title of the chapter,

but um there's a chapter about being on

the lookout for clues.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you think there are clues in in every

everywhere? Yes, I think there are clues

everywhere for if we pay attention,

we'll hear a phrase, it'll trigger a a

thought, we'll see something unexpected.

Um, in the if someone recommends

something to you, maybe it's a

coincidence. If three people recommend

the same thing to you, maybe it's not. I

do believe the universe is on the side

of creativity

and the universe is supporting

things to happen and they can happen

through you or they could happen through

someone else. So if you're paying

attention maybe it'll happen through

you. The belief part of it is a huge

part of the conversation

about everything. You know what we

believe has power. If we believe we can

make something great, the chances of us

making something great are better than

if we don't believe we can. So, uh I I

would say any ability to harness your

belief on your behalf is a really

healthy thing to do. One thing that you

make very clear is that while our own

abilities may come into question from

time to time,

you absolutely believe that the elements

from which to create are out there.

>> Absolutely. All all the elements are all

are are here. Everything is here. We get

to pick and choose. We get to the

conveyor belts going by with little

gifts. First, we have to notice there's

a conveyor belt. Then we notice the

gifts and then that's the starting

point. And then we may even feel uh

uh empowered enough to grab one of the

gifts and open it up and see what's

inside. And then maybe that's the start

of something really beautiful.

Everything that I make or have made has

always been based on something that I

see or hear that

allows me to see something that I didn't

see before. So, I was going to ask you

whether or not it's important to be

happy in order to create, but certainly

a lot of people that were unhappy were

still able to create. But the more I

listen to you, it seems that it's really

about an ability to pay attention.

>> Yes.

>> So, if I'm unhappy or if I'm happy may

not be as relevant as whether or not I'm

able to stay undistracted.

>> Yes. I would say being able to stay

present in the work is probably the most

most important part of it and how you

feel

is less of an issue unless how you feel

gets in the way of you feeling how the

work makes you feel.

>> I do want to ask you about one other

aspect of process which is meditation.

How would you define meditation? Well,

there's different there are different

types of meditation. Usually, we either

are

engaging in a mantra which would be a

version of a almost like a creating a

trance for ourselves.

Not unlike listening [clears throat] to

something when we go to sleep that would

distract our conscious mind from

participating. we would be overriding

our uh the the talking mind with just a

sound that we're generating or a word or

a phrase series of phrases or it could

be focused on the breath. But the

purpose of being focused on the breath

is to not

hear the self-t talk that we normally

have. It's a singlepointed

focus exercise in those that I

described. The other version is an

awareness meditation where you're

closing your eyes and you're being with

whatever is. There's no story. There's

no this means this. None of those

things. Just like an inventory almost of

everything that comes up when it comes

up. And you do that for a period of

time. But in in all of those cases in in

the example of doing the awareness

meditation or doing a mantra meditation

or focusing on the breath in none of

them am I thinking and none of them am I

concentrating on

I I'm I'm being aware of the of sense

perceptions

in the awareness one

or in the other meditations I'm doing a

practice this so that I'm not aware of

thinking about anything else. And

there's also something called the um the

surgical series from the Monroe

Institute which

I used when I had a surgery. You listen

to this recording and

it both [clears throat] allows your body

to heal much faster and removes some of

the trauma that goes on when you know

getting cut open. It's traumatic. But

just through listening to certain

things, you can um can have a really

powerful effect, heal much faster. I

remember I was about to be put under for

a surgery and my eyes were closed and I

wasn't communicating with anyone there

because I was going inside and um and my

wife was with me and they came in and

they said, "Oh, um so they already gave

Rick Rick the sedative because he's

ready to wheel in." She's like, "I

didn't give him anything." He's like,

"But look at his numbers." just like,

"Yeah, [laughter]

>> I love it. I love that you're so willing

to share what you do and your process."

And I just want to thank you for being

such an incredible portal and also for

being an amazing friend.

>> Thank you. I love you. I'm so happy to

be here with you. And anytime I get to

see you, it's a good day.

>> Likewise.