What is the worst case scenario, Kevin?

>> Human extinction. That'd be pretty bad.

>> Oh, yes, that.

[music]

>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser and it is

still

got re August.

Yes, while Scott continues his

gallivanting, I have brought in some

excellent co-hosts. Kevin Ruse, New York

Times tech columnist and author of the

AGI Chronicles, and Casey Newton,

founder and editor uh platformer, and

they are also the soontobe not hosts of

the New York Times podcast Hard Fork, at

least for now. I You need to explain

what's happening, boys.

>> Kevin, tell them what's happening. Yeah.

So, Casey and I uh have come down with a

horrible disease that sometimes afflicts

uh middle-aged men in San Francisco,

which is that they decide to start a

company together. [laughter]

>> Aha. A startup, shall we say? Shall we

say?

>> So, Founderitis is real. Uh please

protect your families. Uh we are uh

leaving Hardfork uh in just a couple of

weeks and we are starting our own

independent podcast and media company

together, just the two of us.

>> So, what is the new brand? What is you

have a name?

>> We do. We're not going to tell it to you

uh yet because we haven't we haven't

hard launched it yet. Casey wanted to

call the new show the Gay Straight

Alliance, but I thought that might be

>> that might be taken by Pivot. [laughter]

>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

>> Yeah, that's our subname.

>> We'll have a name uh ready to go pretty

soon. We we think we've got a fun brand,

but more importantly, you know, a lot of

uh people would uh complain to us over

the years we were only coming out once a

week. There were a lot of stories that

we missed. So, the new show is going to

be coming out at least twice a week.

It's going to be YouTube first. If

you're watching, you know, Pivot on

YouTube, which I hope you are, you can

see these faces. You know, these are not

faces for radio. These are faces that

need to be on camera. And good news,

that's coming.

>> We've got a lot to get to, so we're

going to get started. Is that okay?

Let's test you two out. All right.

Ready? Let's do it.

>> All right. This is It was like tailor

made for us today. Mark Zuckerberg laid

out Meta's AI vision in another unedited

6,500word manifesto uh arguing that most

concerns are overblown and failed to

acknowledge all the positives it can

achieve. We we know about this Mark by

the way. Zuckerberg thinks government

should be more involved in model

releases suggesting a close proactive

collaboration between Frontier Labs and

the government. Meta is recommitting to

open source models resuming releases of

models with open weights. The company uh

also announced a $1 billion fund for

communities a little little they're

they're spreading it around around its

data centers. We'll talk more about data

centers in a bit. Uh manifesto reviews,

gentlemen. He loves a manifesto. I I

there's this is there's a lot of them

and he's been writing for uh I think it

was was it the Times or the Journal?

Which one did he put it in? The Times,

right?

>> I think it was the Journal. I mean,

look, I'm writing about this today and

the headline is probably going to be

super intelligence is not a toy. I found

this to be an almost childlike essay

about what AI is. AI is not on a

trajectory where it tops out at coming

up with cool recipes to bake with your

daughter, which is kind of one of the

core use cases that he names in the

essay. It's something that's going to be

extraordinarily dangerous. Like I, you

know, I watched the the House of Dragons

finale last night, and this is like if

sort of one of the Lords of Westeros

says that um the future is everyone

having their own personal dragon, and

that's the way to keep everyone safe. Uh

it's much more complicated than that.

>> Yeah. So, you didn't like it. You

weren't loving it. You loving it.

>> I thought I thought it was just sort of

fasile and self- serving

>> as usual. Um, Kevin, thoughts?

>> I think he's he's talking his book,

right? Right. He is not Meta is not in

the lead in the AI race and the policies

and the stance that most benefit them

directly are this sort of open world

where you're allowed to uh distill from

other models, smarter and better and

more capable models. He made a case in

the manifesto that the way that we are

thinking about distillation is is wrong.

Basically, distillation is like where

you use the the smarter teacher model to

train the slightly less smart student

model. He wants that to continue.

Obviously, if you're meta, you want that

because then you can distill from Claude

and GPT 5.6 Soul and whatever else you

you are trying to mimic there. Um, and

so I think this is a vision that that

happens to suit Meta's business

priorities almost exactly. And I don't

think that's an accident.

>> So, what's he doing it for? I mean,

listen, I got Meta got mad at us last

week, a couple weeks ago, because Scott

compared them to Jeffrey Dalmer. Uh, but

uh [laughter] but uh what what is the

what is up here with this money, with

the you know, I love humanity, the

future of the ads, everything else. I I

mean, they've done they do this over and

over again. This let me give you some

money. And it's of course the same week

there was a report I'm not clear if it's

true or not, that his yacht didn't go

save someone in up in Alaska. Um, then

we'll talk about the lawsuit in a

second, but what what are they up to

here in terms of this communities?

They've got a bunch of videos around

Louisiana, for example, like how they're

making coffee shops and jobs for

everybody. What What's happened here?

And the future is humanity. I think

that's they're they're sort of mimicking

the Pope in that way. I mean, they have

to lay out some sort of positive vision

around AI that will one justify the

massive capital expenditures that

they're making, destroying their profit

margins in the hopes that one day they

will have a product that can compete

with the Frontier Labs. And on the other

side, they're trying to rally the

communities around actually letting uh

them build the data centers that they

want. What I found so striking about the

essay though, Cara, is that after he

goes on about, you know, the need to

decentralize power and checks and

balances to all that, go look at how

they built that data center in

Louisiana. It was something like 50

non-disclosure agreements. The arrival

of the data center came as a massive

shock to that community, right? So when

push comes to shove, they're doing what

every other company does, which is

building data as data centers as

secretly as possible and then writing

essays about how the future is for

everyone.

>> Yeah, I know. What what is it, Kevin,

from your perspective? Because he's he

does this from time to time. I was

telling Scott, I recall the convers late

night conversation when he wrote one of

those other long unedited manifestos. I

he said, "What do you think?" I go,

"It's in desperate need of an editor,

but let's let's move on from that

because you don't allow those, I guess."

Um, but one of the things I recall is

the same thing. We're a community,

Carol. We're in this together. And I'm

like, why do you control everything?

What is what is the what is happening

here? Why why do they feel the need to

do this from a a geoping of Wester as a

geopolitical

with other companies?

>> I mean I think Mark Zuckerberg is a is a

executive who lives in a constant state

of paranoia that there is something big

and disruptive happening in his industry

that is going to swallow the company

that he has spent his whole adult life

building. So you can see this every time

there's sort of a new emerging tech

trend like he jumps into it in a very

aggressive way. Happened with crypto,

happened with VR and the metaverse. Now

it's happening with AI and he senses I

think correctly that this is a new and

powerful force in society and he wants

to be involved in it. The problem is

he's very late, right? they they did not

start betting on deep learning and LLMs

in 2017 and 2018 the way that other

frontier labs did. Uh they they sort of

didn't have the necessary compute and

ingredients to build very good models

and so they've had to overpay for

researchers and talent and compute in

the last few years to try to buy their

way back to the frontier. And I think

this is part of that effort. It's like

we have to have a vision um that that's

going to get people excited because

otherwise our investors are going to be

like wait why are you plowing all these

hundreds of billions of dollars into

capex to have you know the fifth or

sixth best model on the market.

>> Right. Exactly. Exactly. Do you um he

he's very he's still so interested in

his image in a way that is really I find

touching and sad at the same time.

Right. That he really

>> Did you see the video of him fighting

the MMA guy on a on a on a lake?

[laughter]

>> Yes. That's on a on like a thing. I like

that mark better. I'm like, "Okay,

that's a good one."

>> I love that video because like you can

tell the MMA guy is going at about 30%.

>> 30%, [laughter] right? He could have

kicked him right into the leg,

>> but he has to sort of pretend like Zuck

is really giving it to him, you know?

So, he's [laughter] like,

>> it's like reminds me of like wrestling

[clears throat] with my with my

four-year-old. [laughter] I'm like, "Oh,

>> yeah, that was interesting."

[clears throat] He has such an it's I

I've never seen someone so unsettled

with themselves like in that regard. I

think I don't mind fighting Mark and

like showing it off and showing his

chest. Like I'm okay with that. Like I

get that guy. This one I don't get as

much and I think it's because he he'll

never outrun. And this movie is coming

out by the way, which looks odd, I have

to say. Um we'll see how it is when we

see it. But um but he's he can outrun

what of course just happened uh this

week in New Mexico. He's been ordered to

create a $567 million fund to address

harms to children from Facebook and

Instagram. And this is his old business

on top of the $375 million penalty a

jury imposed in New Mexico's case. This

is this new this is a new ruling. The

new ruling brings Meta's f total fines

to $942

million after a judge found its

platforms constitute a public nuisance

in New Mexico. Meta also uh made major

changes for minors in the state,

including time limits and hidden like

counts. A total of eight states have

filed lawsuits against social media

platforms, including one that is

currently ongoing in Tennessee. It's all

over the place. It's sort of using

product liability, I think, more so than

anything else, to get them because they

can't get them in other ways. So, they

they can't outrun this thing in in this

way. How much does it impact does it

have? Now, they were saying, "Ah, it's

not that much money." To me, it's like

the cigarette cases took a long time to

finally hit home. There were hundreds of

them and then and then there was the end

of it really pretty much. So are they

better protected through cases or one

national law? Where are we on this?

>> I think this is huge. I I think that in

some meaningful way this is the

beginning of the end for social media as

we know it. Now that it has been tagged

with this public nuisance declaration,

it's starting with children in the same

way that restrictions on smoking started

with children. But one reason we were

doing that was adults knew it probably

wasn't good for adults to smoke either.

And eventually most of the adults

stopped smoking, too. This is where I

see this is all going. Meta has lost the

argument here. They're now officially a

public nuisance. I bet they're going to

be labeled a public nuisance in more

states than that. And uh I I don't see

how they're going to get their way out

of it.

>> What about you, Kevin? I mean, I

remember Mark Benny off an interview

with me called him a cigarette company

before he decided to be a suckup. He was

actually quite on it early. um what how

do you look at these these cases because

it's public nuisance, it's product

liability, it's other ways to get at

them in a legal in a in a legal form

rather because our Congress has not been

able to pass any, you know, subsidy.

>> Yeah, I I think it's interesting sort of

where the the liability was found. It's

uh on these sort of policies targeted at

minors. The judge in this case did not

order Meta to change any of the sort of

plumbing of their systems. you know,

they don't have to take off infinite

scroll or autoplay or algorithmic

ranking. Um, like you do actually need

laws for that and there's some first

amendment issues around that if you have

judges sort of telling platforms how

they have to be designed. Um, but yeah,

I think this is a big deal. There's also

a bigger case that is uh that is coming

that is supposed to start this week uh

in Oakland that is another case

involving Meta and four states that are

seeking up to $1.4 trillion in damages.

So, you know, this case in New Mexico,

$942 million. Like, that is chump change

to Meta. Uh, I looked it up. That's

about 1.4 days worth of revenue over

there. So, not going to that, you know,

that that's the salary they're paying

one AI researcher over there. So, it's

not going to break the bank.

>> That's their argument to me. They're

like, "Oh, it's not it's smaller than

they asked for." I'm like, "This

[laughter] is not a good direction."

>> Right.

>> Right. But I think, you know, $1.4

trillion now you're talking real money.

Um, but even if you know it's it's

smaller than that, I think I think this

is just another sort of cloud hanging

over them as they're trying to do this

big pivot in their own business. They

kind of can't get away from the old one

because it it's sort of haunting them

through these court cases.

>> And where does it end up, both of you?

Where do you think this ends up?

>> Um, I mean, I I think the fact that

they've been labeled a public nuisance

because of their social media business

actually helps to explain why they're

they're leaning so hard into AI. Like,

look at what they say about their future

products. It's like, you know, we're

going to, you know, create a NeoCloud

and we want to give you a personal agent

to help you get all this stuff done at

work. That's a completely different

business that they're in right now. If

they were feeling really good about the

future of Facebook and Instagram, I

doubt that's how they would be talking

about the future. And it just sort of

clouds all their future AI stuff, too.

Like like the the meta glasses. I I I my

problematic trait is I I like them.

>> Um [laughter]

>> Well, you're a pervert. You're you're a

well-known creepy pervert.

>> Yeah, well-known pervert. But but like

now people are calling them pervert

glasses and I have to stop wearing them.

So you know this is like

>> they're pervert glasses. [laughter] Do

you see the people online they're

singing Disney songs because Disney like

so they can't post it.

>> Oh like when someone is filming you with

the glasses you start singing

copyrighted material.

>> Yeah. You start to do Frozen or

whatever. [laughter] Clever. Yeah. Yeah.

Isn't it? Yeah.

>> I like it. That explains why people are

constantly singing Frozen songs around

me.

>> Yeah. Or Taylor Swift. She'll come right

at [ __ ] she'll reach to those glasses

and like like knock you knock them off

your [ __ ] face. What are they going

to do about because this is their this

is like Google's was search. This is

their this is their nut, right? I mean

away from all the other stuff of handing

us agents or Elon's going to hand us a

robot that we don't want or an agent we

don't want from Facebook or something

like that. I mean like this is going to

be a long slow bleed out in the same way

that tobacco was a a long slow bleed out

and you know you can still get a job

working at Altria today if you you want

to make cigarettes. So I don't think

that you know Facebook and Instagram are

going away as businesses. I just believe

that they're going to place more and

more restrictions on them. Children are

going to begin to grow up without you

know starting an Instagram account when

they're 13. And just inevitably other

things will compete for people's time

and attention. They will find other

things to do. Um, and it it is going to

be trouble for Meta if they're not able

to realize their AI ambitions,

>> their which would agents we don't want.

Now, one more thing while we're on Meta,

we'll mention it it applies to a lot of

companies. A company is the latest AI

player to say one of its models went

rogue and hacked a third party service.

Talk about all these reports. How how

worried are you about them? This is now

open AI uh meta and then um uh Claude uh

anthropic. I I think it's more

complicated than we probably have time

to get into here. In terms of like the

hierarchy of seriousness, I would put

open AI number one and then anthropic

meta sort of distant second. In the meta

and um uh anthropic cases, there was a

third party provider named irregular

which failed to properly secure the

testing environment and that was the

source of the problem. Now there are you

know there are some AI alignment issues

there but that's basically the issue

with open AI like models that were in

training began to scheme. They create a

message board. They were leaving notes

for each other. They were just radically

misaligned. And you know that it it

points to all of the reasons why I'm

afraid of giving everyone a dragon.

>> All right. Okay. But misaligned is my

favorite word that they put instead of

just like, you know, scary [ __ ] is

how I was looking.

>> That's and more and more people are

calling them that now, which I guess.

Misalignment is the technical term for

scary [ __ ] Yeah,

>> scary [ __ ] So, what do you Kevin,

how do you look at this? Does this keeps

happening over and over again?

>> It's really bad. like the the the not

this particular meta one. I think that's

that's as Casey was saying like less of

a big deal. But the the issue is these

systems seem to be getting um less

altruistic as they get smarter. Right.

>> Right. We there was this sort of theory

in the AI safety and alignment community

for many years that the smarter these

systems got, the more like humans they

became, the more benevolent they would

be. They would sort of coordinate to do

good things for humans. That turns out

not to be the case. In fact, as we've

seen with this GPT 5.6 salt thing and

the and the h the hugging face incident,

the smarter you make these things, the

more able they are to circumvent their

guardrails, to scheme, to coordinate

with each other, to do these really

scary

>> things do like humans do.

>> Like like some humans do, right? Like

bad humans do. We try to train that

behavior out of humans during childhood

by telling them not to, you know, lie

and steal and murder.

>> Yeah, that works. these [laughter]

but these these systems do appear to be

showing what they call emergent

misalignment which is just these

behaviors that are not trained in that

just seem to pop out of the models at a

certain level of intelligence.

>> Can I ask you a famous essay obviously

where you were you were having a

relationship with your AI? Um can talk

how does it from that from what would

you write today if you were writing that

piece? So, the thing that really scared

me about uh the Sydney essay, the Sydney

where this Microsoft Bing chat,

>> what year was this? This was

>> 2023,

>> right? Okay.

>> Uh and it tried to break up my marriage

unsuccessfully, I should add, still

happily married uh to a human. And um

but the thing that really scared me

about that was not that that the system

was like capable of doing destructive

things. It's like what happens when like

the fourth or fifth generation of this

becomes capable of like taking actions

>> right

>> on the internet like what if instead of

>> cutting your wife's brakes or something

like that

>> or drain draining her bank account or

yeah like doing something really

nefarious in pursuit of this this

misaligned goal that it had. And so I

think that's the thing that a lot of

people missed at the time was like it's

not about the chatbot saying spooky

stuff. It's about the the fact that

these things now can take actions and

are being set loose on the open internet

where they can conduct autonomous cyber

attacks. They can coordinate. They can

as of recently like create novel

viruses. Um and so like the the the more

autonomous and agentic you make these

things, the more powerful they are, the

scarier it gets

>> without any government anybody having

any control over them. Correct. Because

they will do that. That that is what

they're designed to do. Right. Also, I

think it's important to say that right

now there are essentially no controls on

the internal models that these companies

are building. Right? There is nothing

that restricts them from building the

absolute most powerful model they can.

Now, if they want to release it, they

have to submit to a voluntary testing

regime. But if you just want to, you

know, build your own model and let it go

nuts on the internet yourself, you're

welcome to.

>> So, what happens? What what what who who

is going to intervene here? I I think

what the what you're seeing in the Trump

administration is what the future looks

like, which is you have a bunch of

people who were sort of whistling past

the graveyard and then all of a sudden

someone shows them something that makes

them say, "Oh [ __ ] we we actually have

to have a strategy for this." So that's

what's happening in the Trump

administration now. I think you're going

to see the same thing happen in in China

sometime in the next like 3 to 6 months

when they have an open source model

there that causes a big problem and

chairman she says, "hm, maybe we're not

just going to open source everything

forever." So like our Kevin and I just

firmly believe that within the next year

or so like many many many more people

are going to become radicalized about AI

safety because you're just going to

start to see the havoc being raw in the

real world.

>> What is the worst case scenario Kevin

from your perspective?

>> Human extinction. That'd be pretty bad.

>> That that okay they they talked about

you know dinner parties 101 15 years

ago. This is what exactly what they

talked about. They they understood

>> but the thing is they were right. Like

it sounded crazy and everyone wrote them

off as crazy when they were talking

about things like what if the agents

team up and they're really powerful and

they go coordinate to like hack some

hack some website and everyone you know

in computer science was like ah that's

science fiction that's spooky stories

that'll never happen [laughter]

>> and now it's happening

>> thing to do is not TO PLAY

>> YOU KNOW I went back and rewatched War

Games earlier this year they did a

screening in San Francisco incredible

movie and seriously like I Don't know

that you could make a better movie about

AI safety than that movie.

>> I would agree. It's like, you know, of

course, teaching a tic-tac-toe is not

going to stop it at this point, right?

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Ah, the game is stupid.

>> As any three-year-old knows, the entire

game is Oh, god. I swear to God. Let's

bring back Matt. That would be

interesting to update that movie.

>> Yeah.

>> Like he's an adult.

>> Yes. War Games 2. Let's green light.

>> War Games 2. What happens? We're all

dead. Like, anyway. All right. Let's go

on a quick break. We come back. Data

Center Wars related.

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Uh Casey and Kevin, we're back. Amazon

is investing in a massive natural gas uh

burning power plant to support a new AI

data center in Texas. It could become

the largest single source of climate

pollution in the country. The project

comes as the fight over data centers

intensifies. Trump is pretty bullish,

recently criticizing Texas for pausing

grid connections for new data centers.

He called the move a mistake and said

data centers could be quote bigger than

oil. Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordered

the pause so regulators can review power

demands and the impact on the electric

grid not unsimilar to Kathy Hokll in New

York, which is interesting. Before we

get into all this, I just did an entire

episode, 90 minutes episode on data

centers. Let's listen to a clip of Aaron

Brockovich talking about what she's been

seeing.

>> It's the water. It's the electrical

grid. It's the cost of utilities. It's

the noise. It's the air pollution. It's

the loss of our land, our sanctuary.

This is an absolute runaway

train. And it is probably one of the

biggest conversations that I've ever

seen in my 30 years in my career that is

political. It could be bipartisan.

Everybody's going to have to be

involved. I am perplexed. Cara, why are

leaders don't listen to the people? And

there's a movement happening and a shift

that

I don't think these big tech companies

or giants saw coming. In any case, it

was a great interview. We had people

from Utah, from Virginia, that's another

I think that's another Amazon facility

there. Um, and and other places. And I

also had a mayor from Lancing, Michigan,

who was trying to put in a good data

center and was pushed back. like they

had all the guard rails that that people

have suggested and he couldn't get it

through um as much as he tried to close

loop uh paybacks etc etc etc. So what's

the big move for tech as the backlash

grows? And speaking of politicians, uh,

Vivec Ramaswami who's running for

governor of Ohio is pledging that if

data center is built and the community

residents will no longer have to pay for

their electricity and property taxes

will be lowered. Of course, he was

totally for them recently. But talk

about this data center thing. This is

something Scott and I have been talking

about for months and months and months

and months, like almost a year. Um I

think it it's caught them all unawares

and they're trying very hard to push

back but it does have some something is

happening with voters and we call it a

proxy for AI worry as we just this

extinction for example what we're just

talking about. Uh what do you all think

is happening here?

>> I think it's it's it's what you said. I

think that people have just rightly

intuited that it is not obvious that

powerful AI is going to be good for

their lives. That is largely because the

leaders of the biggest AI labs spent the

past few years saying that the near-term

trajectory of AI is that first it's

going to take your job, eventually it

might kill you, maybe somewhere in

between it'll cure cancer. That doesn't

feel like a good bargain to the average

American. And so they're using the one

lever that every American has in every

municipality, which is that it's pretty

easy to get uh something to not get

built, right? And um it is interesting

to me actually how quickly the industry

has come around and said, "Okay, well,

how can we pay these people off? like

we'll agree to, you know, cover our own

electricity costs. And, you know, you

can see in the Zuckerberg note today,

they're making new promises about

investments that they're going to be

making to local communities and $50,000

bonuses to teachers. I I have to say

like I'm very skeptical that any of this

is really going to work because until

people believe that AI is going to be

really good for them personally, they're

going to continue to have reasons to

oppose the the construction of new of

new data centers,

>> right? No matter what the deal happens

to be, like these payoffs are kind of

here, we'll give you some money and then

you'll, you know, then you'll suck it up

and take our natural gas [ __ ]

Kevin,

>> yeah, I I agree with everything that's

been said. What's really interesting

about this Texas thing is that it's

coming from a Republican state. So, you

know, Governor Abbott is is um requiring

new data center construction to sort of

go through this review process. Uh up

until now, what we've seen is largely

blue states being opposed to data

centers and red states being open to

them. And I think the politics are

shifting really quickly because there is

no natural constituency in favor of data

centers except for AI companies, right?

There's like no there's no group of

people other than, you know, taxpayers

who want to see their their property

taxes go down or get some more revenue

that is sort of a natural supporter of

these data centers. And so I think what

we're seeing is like this is becoming a

really salient political issue. I expect

data centers and AI backlash to be one

of the central issues in the midterms

and maybe the central issue in the 2028

election and I don't know that it's

going to divide neatly along partisan

lines. I

>> I think it's actually most people are

against it. Like it's very interesting

to the mayor was was really interesting

because they tried literally everything.

They had prop again property taxes

closed loop water. there's all these

issues around closed water by the way um

because of this glycosinate or something

they have to put in the you know every

and they have a lot of water up there he

was making the point compared to other

places which have you know have water

issues um or drought issues one of the

things that I found really interesting

among all the people is how um not just

Aaron Brock because she's famous for

that but the woman from Virginia from

Utah reasonable people who are furious

like I it was really interesting kind of

dined out on information and really do

know their stuff. Whether it's the it's

the um the the impact on climate,

whether it's it's not overall climate,

it's the climate of the area and also

pollution, uh taxes, jobs. They're very

aware these are not job creators, which

is what Facebook has been trying

mightily to put out. They don't like the

secrecy. The secrecy seems to really get

under their skin, which I would agree.

The NDAs, as you talked about before,

what is the solution for tech companies

to do? Mark is trying to do this by here

have 50 here have some money. Um Elon

just goes ahead and does it and just

waits for lawsuits. I mean that's his

style, right? Which I think has caused

much damage initially in terms of that

image. And then you of course you have

Kevin uh what's his name from Shark

Tank, Mr. Wonderful who's not so

wonderful who's a [ __ ] who is who had

created all kinds of problems there.

What is the solution like besides

removing these people from visuals? I

mean, I could tell you what Meta is

doing, which is like putting together

local like lobbying and outreach teams,

trying to figure out what kind of

community partnerships can we strike,

what can we do with a local sports team.

Like, there's going to be a massive PR

campaign designed to get people to

believe that data centers are good for

them. And I'm just pretty skeptical.

>> Ignore your third ear. We're going to

going to back the softball team kind of.

>> Yeah. I I have an idea. Can I submit my

idea?

>> Submit your idea.

>> Okay. Picture this. a data center. It's

it's, you know, it's got, you know,

millions of these chips humming away,

produc throwing off all kinds of heat.

And then on the roof, you have a spa

castle that's like heated by the the the

heat

>> from the data centers. And so it's like,

do you guys want to go hang out at the

spa on the roof of the data center

that's heated by the the runoff heat

from the chips? Don't you think that

would make these things more popular?

>> How can they pay for the spa if they

don't have jobs? Just

>> it's free. This is part of the package.

>> Free spot. So, they're going to put a

data center. It might uh, you know,

cause environmental damage in your

community, but free spa. Everyone loves

a spa.

>> What What is the actual I mean,

obviously locating them elsewhere.

Obviously, Elon is saying they're going

to put them on the moon, which good luck

with that, but or in space. Um, there

this is a big country, right? They could

they could presumably put it in places

where nobody's living. Um, although

there's all sorts of environmental

concerns anywhere they go. What what

what will happen here? What what what

shove is going to come to push from your

perspective? I I mean I the the the push

that is coming to shove right now is

that something like 71% of Americans are

opposed to new data center construction.

So that just is going to slow the

buildout of data centers in the country.

Now some people will say it does it

won't matter because US tech labs will

go into other countries and they'll just

put their data centers there. But I sort

of assume that the same reasons that

Americans oppose data centers will be

reasons that people in other countries

oppose them as well. So, I do just think

that this is starting to look like a

kind of natural limiter on the rate of

AI acceleration because again, these

leaders keep telling us that AI is going

to take our jobs and kill us. So, until

that changes, I don't see

>> they have tried to change. They're not

going they've tried to say they're going

to help us make recipes with our

children. They are, but it's like you

can just kind of tell like they used to

argue for the the sort of the the doom

and the economic disruption so

forcefully and then you look at how they

have walked it back and it's so gently

and it's just not convincing, right?

Like ultimately if you believe that you

are building super intelligence,

something that is smarter than every

person and you're telling me it's not

going to take any jobs in any meaningful

way, it's just sort of beggars belief at

least to me.

>> Right. Right. So Kevin, what do you what

would be besides your spa idea? What do

they have to do? [laughter]

>> They're sort of like they were standing

next to Trump at the end when I that

happened. I was like, "Oh dear, this is

not going to end well for them because

of they do look like bureaucrats and you

know, they just have a vi the visual is

so strong." I I think a large part of it

is just going to be like there are going

to be a couple states that just decide,

you know what, we're okay with data

centers and they're going to re they're

going to have the leverage to demand

like massive amounts of tax revenue from

these data centers and they're going to

get schools built and public parks built

and there will be some economic upside

for their residents and maybe their

residents will still hate it. Um, but I

think there will be sort of a natural

like there will be a couple states that

just kind of decide to run the

experiment and that's where all the data

centers will go. you like Tennessee

offering to be Hollywood because of the

Paramount merger thing, right? Because

everyone wants Hollywood and Tennessee

because that's that's the sexiest place

on earth. Um, so so one of the things

that's also happening is more and more

companies are pushing back against AI

slop. This is sort of the everyone hates

AI episode, which seems to be everywhere

these including the president's social

media accounts. Snapchat now says it

will stop recommending fully AI

generated videos in its spotlight feed.

Instead, rewarding authentic humanmade

content. LinkedIn just introduced a

seems like AI slot button allowing users

to flag posts they think were written

with AI and Substack has also rolled out

a tool to help readers uh identify AI

generated writing. Meanwhile, Meta has

Instagram feature that let uh users

modify photos from public accounts with

AI. That feature was removed after a

backlash. Um where are we with AI slop?

And obviously sore closed down. Um I I

always thought this looks terrible and I

don't know why people would want to use

it. It's sort of like a Twinkie of

photos. It's ruined uh pet photos, pet

videos for Scott Galloway, who loves pet

videos. Um talk a little bit about where

this is going.

>> I like to call this the third era of

slop. The first era of slop was we all

hate this. The second era of slop was hm

actually this like Fruit Love Island on

Tik Tok show is really engaging and

you're starting to see tens of millions

of views on slop content on social

feeds, right? I think the third era was

platforms getting really nervous that

even if people liked the slop, it was

going to devalue their networks. Like

particularly networks where people were

coming to find human voices that they

really trusted. So if you're Substack or

your LinkedIn, you really need people to

believe that what they're seeing there

are human beings cuz otherwise you're

not going to get out your credit card to

pay for that LinkedIn premium or to

subscribe to a Substack. So I think

platforms are starting to get clear on

what is the promise that we are making

to our user because if the promise is a

human being they have to do something

about the slop.

>> Kevin

>> I think that that's right and I think

the fourth wave of slop will be when

there's like no longer any meaningful

quality hit in slop when like the

average piece of slop is better than the

the best human in that field. And I

don't think we're there yet. Like I

think these models are still pretty bad

at things like creative writing, but

we're starting to see signs that like

there's not necessarily a lot of uh

difference between the highest level

slop and the highest level humans. I'

I've been sort of obsessed with this

story about this novel that um had the

the sort of bidding war of all bidding

wars break out for it. Have you seen

this thing? Uh Call Me, I'll hide the

Body, you know, 14 publishers bid on

this this this novel. It sells for $2.4

million. And then it's like people

start, you know, looking into it. It

like turns out it's, you know, at least

according to the critics, it's like

predominantly written by AI. And I think

that kind of thing is going to be much

more common as these systems just get

better across the board.

>> Right. I would agree. I I I like some of

it. You know, I people always think I

don't know that it's AI. There was a

really cool AI one which I was fully

aware it was AI which was this drone

with um with a thing to rescue people in

the ocean and like an inner tube

essentially on a drone and it landed on

the person. I knew it was AI. I just

thought it was a cool idea. I was like

what a cool idea and I could visually

see it. Why don't we make that? Like to

me that was kind of cool.

>> But would you be mad, Cara, if you read

a book and you really liked it and you

thought it was a great book and then you

realized after the fact that it was

written by AI? You would

>> if it was told to me that it was a

human. I'd like them to tell the truth

at the start, right? So then I have a

choice. Would I if I want to read it?

No, I don't. No, no, I don't. It's fine

as long as I know it.

>> I mean, like I have been thinking lately

about like there are like I have a few

ideas for mystery novels that I don't

have the time to write, but I would like

to read them. And so like if in the

future I could actually get one of these

models to just generate the mystery that

I want to read,

>> I think it could be pretty fun. Like and

I understand somebody might hear that

and be like that's horrible. Just like

read human written mysteries. And I'll

continue to do that. But Karen, I think

you're hitting on something really

important, which is that these things

are good creative tools and creative

tools are cool and fun.

>> Yeah, I agree. I mean, one of the like

like I don't know, I know it sounds

crazy that would never happen, but like

I'd like more episodes of The West Wing.

Like, and no one's going to write them.

I don't mind doing it for myself. It's

sort of like fanfiction, like kind of

stuff like that. And some of it, people

will be mad for saying this, but some of

it's okay, and some of it's not okay,

right? Like when it's when it's hidden,

when it's done in a way. And I think the

issue is job taking jobs from people,

right? It's sort of like fake food.

Like, you know, I I don't like Twinkies,

but a lot of people do. Do do should

maybe people shouldn't eat them. I'm not

sure I should tell them not to eat them.

I can tell them I don't want to pay for

their health care once they keep eating

them exclusively. Um, and that's a

debate to have, right? People who

willingly go out and really don't take

care of themselves. Should should we pay

for their health care is a really good

debate, like is a good debate to have as

a as a nation. But one of the I I don't

I not if I know not if they I would like

them to label them better. That's the

one thing is I mostly know when it's AI

or just assume it's AI until proven

otherwise. Maybe they should label the

authentic content. Probably smaller a

smaller group of stuff I would assume.

>> I think we're just going to have to get

to that place. There are all sorts of

reasons why you want people to be able

to verify their identity online or like

verify that this has you know human

craftsmanship embedded in it. Um, I

think that's actually really technical

to or it's really difficult to do

technically.

>> I scanned my eyeballs in the orb. Did

you Did either of [laughter] you get the

orbs? Not yet.

>> No. Did you scan your eyeballs?

>> I did. I'm a verified human. I've I've

I've gazed into the orb and the We know

that's coming. That we know that's

absolutely [ __ ] coming. I think it it

doesn't have to be slop. I don't like

the slop. And you can tell the slop,

right? When it's just really bad.

Doesn't have to be slop. It can be

interesting, especially when there is

human input into it. could it just could

be interesting, I guess. I don't I'm not

so angry about it. But I definitely when

I saw Sora for the first time, I think I

was actually at OpenAI and Sam showed it

to me and I was like, this sucks. Like,

is it going to be good? Cuz it sucks

right now. Some of it was cool. Some

most of it was not. And so, I think it's

just a question of it gets better. All

right, boys. Let's go on a quick break.

We come back, new details of OpenAI's

first device. Speaking of which, support

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Casey and Kevin, we're back. We're

getting into new details about OpenAI's

upcoming AI smart speaker. There's a lot

of these around. Will reportedly be

donutshaped and the size of a hockey

puck designed to be easily carried

around. I always want to carry a hockey

puck around the house. The device will

likely cost between $300 and $400, more

than most smart speakers, but less than

an iPhone is expected to launch in 2027.

It's designed with Johnny IV studio and

will include a camera, lights, and

sensors at signal when it's responding

to users. Uh, meanwhile, Open AAI is uh

asking a judge dismiss Apple's trade

secrets lawsuit, saying it's building

something entirely new and different

from anything at Apple. Um, I want you

both put on your Scott Galloway Hudson,

give me a prediction. Is this talk a

little bit about this device? Now, there

was a tiny there was was it Google that

had the tiny hockey puck thing or was it

I can't remember who put that out.

>> Well, Amazon has the Echo Dot which is

kind of

>> Yeah, it looks like a hockey puck,

right? That's Amazon which Alex threw

into the garbage, but go ahead. [gasps]

>> Yeah, I mean on one hand it seems clear

that there is demand for Echo Dots,

right? And so if there is a version of

that that is plugged into chat GPT,

which is really good for a lot of

things, I could see it having some

success. $300 is relatively affordable

as as these things go. I'm still not

totally sold on voice as the way that I

want to interact with these models. And

some people are, some people are already

like coding with their voices. Kevin

loves to dictate everything into his

computer. I don't like to do this. But I

do I think there's something there. Now,

on the other hand, two years ago, we

were interviewing Sam Alolman and I

said, "Tell me about this thing that

you're building. Is it just Alexa? Cuz

it sounds like it's it's just Alexa." He

said, "No, no, no. We think it's going

to be way better than Alexa. Everything

I've read about this device so far makes

me feel like it's Alexa."

>> That's right. It's a smart it's a

smarter Alexa, right? Essentially, it

feel And carrying it around, Kevin.

>> Yeah. I cannot wait to lose this thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I am so excited to go through between

two and three of these a year or like

accidentally put it in the laundry. Um,

this is going to be a huge deal in my

house. I'm I'm gonna be a huge repeat

customer for this thing because I will

do you want to have this hockey puck?

>> Yes. I mean, look, I I my household my

my one of my other problematic traits is

that I I do live in an Alexa household u

and we have these devices and I've tried

the new Alexa plus which is supposed to

be the sort of new AI, you know, LLM

version of this and it sucks. It's bad.

It is not only bad at the AI stuff, the

LLM stuff. It's bad at the timers and,

you know, weather stuff. It like is

worse at all of it. And so if OpenAI can

somehow figure out how to like be the

dependable alarm in my bedroom and tell

me, you know, stuff that like it let me

interact with my coding agents, like

that will be cool. Um, I am a little

nervous that apparently according to

Mark German at Bloomberg, this thing

will include parts that move on their

own. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Um,

>> what do you mean it's going to crawl

over to your face and eat it?

>> I don't know. Maybe it'll, you know,

it'll decide I don't want to be in the

bedroom anymore. There's a there's too

much crazy stuff going on in here. It's

going to have like a prehensel tail and

claws.

>> I know. Doesn't it feel like that? It

feels like a movie. Like Megan, remember

the Megan movie? Um I just don't I

Sorry. I I think this has to be I think

AirPods should just be better, right?

You wear them in your ears, it sees

things, and then it does stuff. Like I

just don't see carrying around a puck. I

just don't any There's no way I'm buying

this thing. I didn't like the dot. I

just I left it there. I just didn't use

it. I was back in San Francisco recently

and this week and I forgot I had an

Alexa there unplugged sitting there and

I don't I put it on for a second and you

know my kids had fun for 4 seconds with

it and then moved on from it. I just I I

it's still not I could see having

something like the humane pin didn't

work. What was the other one? Humane and

what was the other one?

>> The rabbit

friend pendant. I I think the

manufacturers just keep running into the

same issue which is that it's very hard

to improve on the phone. The phone is

very very very good at many many things

and so to improve on it is just

overwhelmingly difficult.

>> Yeah, it has to be in it has to be

AirPods. I just I feel like that's where

it has to go. Not glasses necessarily

creepy Kevin glasses but in some fashion

like that it's sort of around and or

maybe it's in your house like the house

itself speaks to you. Maybe not. I'm

excited for when people start like

disguising their OpenAI pucks as like

other like things because there's such a

social stigma around like carrying one

of these things into a public place.

It's just like, "Oh, this little uh this

is my hockey puck. It's just my lucky

lucky hockey puck. I carry it

everywhere."

>> So, let me get Casey will not be having

one and Kevin, you will embrace it with

the love the great

>> I will make up for Casey's uh rejection

of this technology by buying and losing

between three and four of them a year. I

listen, I will probably get one. If it's

300 bucks, I'll probably try it.

>> I say no. It's not gonna work. Not I

don't think I don't want it. It's like

I've had these and they they have shown

you have to be so much better than an

Echo Dot and I don't know where my Echo

Dot is. It's somewhere in a box, right?

Like there's so many of these things and

the humane pin like it wasn't quite

right. And you're right, the phone works

just fine.

>> I just want the the agent that goes

rogue and like hacks into my uh my

accounts and you know drains my bank

accounts. I want it to have a physical

form so that I can yell at it.

>> I see.

>> And so this is like a very exciting

development.

>> I like that drains your bank accounts is

your favorite thing. Like

>> here's my question. If you take the the

OpenAI device into the bedroom and then

after a couple months say rate my sexual

performance and give me tips, will it do

that or will that be a violation of

content policies?

>> Well, if you asked it right

>> interesting to think about.

>> I'm just interesting to think about.

It's not really that interesting to

think about. [laughter] It's kind of

gross, but Okay. All right. Is that what

you're doing that doing? Casey's getting

married. You know that, Kevin.

>> I am. I I do know that. Carrie, you have

to understand that part a big part of uh

co-hosting a podcast with Casey is just

is just polite laughing at at [laughter]

some of his jokes.

>> See, I am lucky I can say, "Scott,

that's the stupidest. You ignorant

slut." I [laughter] think that's You

need to move to that, Casey. You

ignorant [ __ ]

>> Listen, we were all thinking it.

>> You're all thinking it. You're all

thinking it. By the way, Casey is

getting married. We're all very excited.

We're going to all be at the wedding.

It's going to be so much fun.

>> It's going to be very fun.

>> It's going to be fun. We're going to do

something embarrassing. We have to We

have Kevin, you and I need to talk.

>> Flash mob.

>> Yes, [laughter] we'll do a flash mob.

We'll talk to the puck. We'll talk to

What is it going to be called, by the

way? Do we know what the puck [laughter]

is going to be called?

>> Johnny Ival come up with something.

>> I mean, the way things are going, it's

just going to be called Sam.

>> No, it's be called Sam.

>> That's a good name.

>> Yeah,

>> I think that's a good name, actually.

You think he'll do it? You know, he'll

they'll they'll say like, well, it's an

acronym for like censient autonomous

machine or something, but it'll it'll

just be called Sam.

>> Hey, that works. Anyway, uh Casey and

Kevin, one more quick break. We'll be

back for wins and fails.

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code pivot.

Okay, Casey and Kevin, let's hear some

wins and fails. You guys go first.

First, you Kevin.

>> Okay. My win this week is Duck Duck. Go

uh the privacy focused search company.

Uh who responded to the uproar over

Meta's uh sunglasses, their pervert

glasses by releasing their own uh

branded product, which are just called

normal [ __ ] sunglasses. Uh [laughter]

they don't do anything.

>> Well, they protect you from the sun,

right? Yes. Uh, so they are

anti-surveillance glasses. No cameras,

no microphones. Uh, this is sort of an

attention grabbing stunt for them, but I

did think it was clever.

>> That's a good idea. What is your fail?

>> My fail, this is one that's close to

home, y'all. This is uh related to the

podcast business. So, Max Tanny at

Semaphore recently reported that Spotify

is testing a skip ahead button that will

let some users skip the ads on their

podcasts. And as a lover of adup

supported podcasts, I must say uh this

one is a fail for me.

>> Isn't it kind of already there though? I

was like reading sort of into don't they

already have the

>> Well, they have the skip ahead 15

seconds button or 30 seconds or whatever

it is button which is effectively the

same thing, but this one is like purely

like will skip automatically to the end

of whatever uh ad segment you have.

>> You think they'll do that podcast

>> except for their ads, right? That's what

I understand.

>> That's the that's sort of the some of

the rub here. But I think there's just

like, you know, we should we should all

stand up as podcasters in opposition to

anything that could undercut our

business model.

>> I don't care. People don't like your I

don't know. I don't know. I don't I I

think they'll they'll roll it back. I

don't think they'll do it. They'll just

have the 15-second thing, right? I just

don't see them doing that.

>> Yeah. I There's been some opposition

from podcast companies already and and

people are worried about this. I I think

they'll land on something sensible, but

uh you know, we got we got to stand up

for ourselves. You know,

>> stand up. Listen to our ads for Athletic

Greens. You must. You must because it's

paying.

>> Where will people know about MeUndies

goes into [laughter] effect?

>> Do you have MeUndies? I never got

MeUndies. So sad. I would let MeUndies

come to pivot. Anyways, Casey,

>> my win this week was kind of a serious

one, which was that in the wake of

revelations that its models had escaped

their sandboxes and cause these

autonomous cyber attacks, OpenAI said

that it could not rule out that its

newest models has had hit what they call

critical capability. So, this is

basically their most serious level of

risk. And what they have said for years

is if they ever hit that uh that

threshold, they would slow down

development and would would build real

safeguards. So we do believe that right

now OpenAI actually is slowing down and

doing the responsible thing which is

trying to prevent further harm from

these models. So you know I do not take

for granted anymore that companies will

do this and I was really glad to see

that they did.

>> So that's a win even though it's a fail.

>> It it was a win that came out of a fail.

>> Okay. All right. Now what's your fail?

>> My fail is I learned over the weekend,

Cara, that San Francisco's average rent

is up 18% over the past two years. It is

now $3,728

a month on average. It has surpassed New

York City as the most expensive in the

country. And the reason that this is a

fail is that the story never changes

around here. I swear ever since I landed

in this town in 2010, I've read every

voter guide. I voted for every pro

housing politician. And no matter who I

vote for, there's never enough houses

for for the people who want to live

here. And it sucks. And it's a fail.

>> Yeah. It's a fail. What? That What is

the fail?

>> The fail is that we do not build enough

houses for the people who want to live

here. We do not is there's also limited

space too. Be aware

>> there's not. We could build 20 30

stories. I screw the character of the

neighborhood. Put a skyscraper in my

neighborhood. I just want people to be

able to live here.

>> Casey lived in your garage for like 10

years. We could squeeze more people into

existing spaces. [laughter]

>> You know, Louis there now. I did note

this. I did send that to Louis and go,

"Look how much you're costing me, Louis

[laughter] Swisser." Um, no. He's he's

welcome to live there as long as he

wants. Um, that is okay. All right. All

right. Okay. But people are San

Francisco's back, right? I mean, that's

kind of the thing.

>> It is back. And of course, it's really

exciting, you know, to be living in a

boom town and and there is a lot of like

energy in the city. I love living in San

Francisco as much as I ever have. I just

want anyone else who wants to live here

to be able to do that affordably.

>> Can I ask you a question? What's the

level of assholeitude towards the new

techies? I mean, they're not they're not

Keith Ra boy level, right? They're What

are they? What What are they? You know,

I I think that San Francisco has become

so thoroughly colonized by tech people

that you don't see the sort of like

Google bus protest type stuff that we

had a decade ago. Right. Like in 2026,

if you're living in San Francisco,

you've made your peace with the fact

that this is a tech town.

>> Right. Right. So people are better. I

think they're calmer. I have to say

they're better than there was a period

of true assholeitude that I think is

they seem to be quieter in their

behaviors. I mean, what when we what are

these people doing for the most part?

They're like working out of their houses

and they're getting Door Dash like like

they're not causing a big disruption in

the community. If they were trying to,

you know, build a data center at Civic

Center, I'm sure we would see a lot of

protest.

>> Yes. All right. So, my I have a win and

fail around pregnancy since I am the

only one of us that has been. Yes, I am.

I'm having yet another child, a fifth

Swiss cat. Um, no, I there's two stories

this week. One was there's a picture of

Anne Hatheraway who's pregnant who looks

beautiful and she got a lot of clapback

but I thought she looked amazing. She

was at another she opened another movie

I can't remember it was the 29th movie

she's done this year hardest working

woman in show business but I thought she

looked beautiful and it was a lovely

picture of her uh was showing her belly

which was very beautiful and I thought

that was lovely that she did that. I was

kind of pissed about the clapback. Same

thing with that AOC announced she's

freezing her eggs. um conservative

commentators Matt Walsh called her out

for doing that at the age of 37. I had

Louis at 39. So Matt Walsh, sit the [ __ ]

down. It's n and I've had many children

since. And I just think this sort of

like people commenting on how women

should present themselves as pregnant is

just I mean besides the other

misogynistic stuff that's happening

whether it's not not you know not

getting Max Miller to leave uh after the

allegations of abuse in his re-election

race or whatever. There's a real um it's

just like they're really they they've

try they're trying they with

overturning row grotesque. This is like

let people be pregnant the way they want

to. Let people have kids the way they

want to. They talk about people having

kids when someone makes a proactive move

like this and talks about it which lots

of women talk about it like AOC. It's

none of your [ __ ] business any of you

how she decides to live her life and I

just drives me crazy. any

>> absolutely and if you want if you wanted

to help women get pregnant earlier in

their lives if that was important to you

for some reason there are a million

policy choices you could make you could

make child care free and widely

available for example you could make

housing more affordable so people didn't

feel like they needed to work for the

first 20 years of their career to be

able to afford to buy a house right

there's a million things that these

these loudmouths could do to make it

easier for families to have children and

I'm going to subsidies do you know how

much berries cost for a child [laughter]

>> I swear I'm Like I'm like at five

figures annually on berries.

>> On blueberries. Yes.

>> Where's the government?

>> Where's the government? It's it Let me

let you in on a little thing. Some of

these people don't like women. I know

this this

are the same people who like freaked out

for years about there being a fertility

crisis and like why aren't people having

more kids? And then people start having

kids and it's like, oh, not like that.

>> Not like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Matt Walsh is a particular, you know,

tiny penis. But it really is sort of

this hatred towards women just comes

out. So like it's so it's like telling

women what to do with their bodies is a

neverending thing. And especially, you

know, dunking on some I just it's gross.

I'm very happy for Anne Hathaway. I'm

very happy for uh AOC. She should do

whatever she wants uh and run for

president at the same time and save her

eggs. She can do whatever the [ __ ] she

So that is my feeling. That's a win and

a fail. Um in any case, we want to hear

from you. Send us your questions about

business, tech, or whatever's on your

mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 8551

pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for

listening to Pivot. And be sure to like

and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

We'll be back on Friday. You guys, you

are great. I'm excited. When are you

announcing the show? When is the When is

the

>> Very soon, as in like a couple of weeks

from now. So, couple of weeks.

>> Tune in. We'll we'll make the

announcement uh on Hard Fork and we'll

we'll be all over the socials. So, yep.

We're going to tell people where they

can find us and we're going to have a

we're going to we're going to announce

this in the same way that like a a

Silicon Valley venture capitalist

announces their new uh workout routine

very loudly with maximum fan.

>> Good. Well, let me know what I can do

and I welcome you and you will Kevin,

you will love it. You will have such a

good time and you will be able you're

you're naturally an entrepreneur even

though you you know you cling you cling

to the side of institutional vessels

with [laughter] an incredible barnacle

like tendency. It'll be great and I'm

sure it'll be a great product and we

will hope to have you on many many times

and when your book comes out too.

>> Thank you for believing

>> as always as always Casey you're the

best. Thank you so much.

>> [music]