Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

What's going on? It's

>> going good, man. [laughter] This is

crazy. I can't believe I'm here.

>> I can't believe anybody can't believe

they're here.

>> I I I Dude, this is like hallowed

ground. I mean, I've been watching you

like the rest of the world for years. I

mean, I've seen I've seen so many clips

of this space. So many so many

references to Jamie and to be here right

now is very cool. So I'm honored. Thank

you for having me.

>> Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm glad

you're here. Yeah, it is always weird

when you go someplace where you like the

first time I did Howard Stern, I felt

the same way. Like you're in the

building like what the [ __ ] This is the

actual Howard Stern show that I used to

listen to on the radio. Like really

freaked me out. I couldn't sleep the

night before. I did yoga in my hotel

room to try to calm down.

>> When was this? When did you do this?

>> Long time ago. 200 probably

one or something like that.

>> Was this like prime Fear Factor days?

>> You know what? I might have done it

before I did Fear Factor.

>> Great show by the way, dude.

>> Thank you.

>> Great show. Seriously.

>> Yeah, it's it was a good sign our

society was about to crumble. [laughter]

When historians go back and look at like

the decline of society, they're like,

remember when they started making people

eat dicks on TV? They started making

people eat animal balls and animal dicks

on TV. That might have been

>> start. And then it was then it was

Rogan's interview on on on that show on

what's his name again?

>> I just blacked out the guy you just said

you had an interview with. Oh my Howard

Howard St. Well, it was like I did it we

did Fear Factor. It started airing right

after September 11th. like literally

right after

>> fear factor

>> and

one of the narratives one of the

reporters asked me in like one of those

stupid press junket things you have to

do was is do you think it's appropriate

to scare Americans right after what just

happened at 9/11 [laughter] I was like

what the [ __ ] are you talking

>> this is on me now I'm like what are you

talking about it's distraction it's

entertainment and they're eating animal

dicks okay shut

>> the [ __ ] Uh, [laughter]

watch it or don't watch it, who cares?

>> But it's like if you wanted to look at

like where society start, you used to be

like Friends, Seinfeld, [ __ ] you

know,

>> the good old days.

>> The good old days. Miami Vice. It's like

[laughter] it was television shows that

were like shows and then all a sudden

anybody could be on TV if you're willing

to eat the animal dick.

>> It's true. That was the threshold.

>> Yeah.

>> Pretty good. It's weird because that

kind of ushered in social media. It's

very similar in a lot of ways. Like the

people that were willing to go on these

reality shows, especially stuff like Big

Brother where you just live in a house

with a bunch of people. Like how [ __ ]

weird. You're just being filmed

constantly in this pressure situation

and the producers are [ __ ] you know,

Mike's been talking a lot of [ __ ] behind

your back. You might want to get ahead

of this. Like what, Mike?

>> Yeah. I could never do that.

>> Yeah. No. Well, you're not stupid

[laughter]

>> or you're not young or you're not

desperate. We had a lot of people that

were just in like credit card debt and

[ __ ] and they were like, "Look, if I can

win this [ __ ] thing, like normal

people. They're like, "Look, it'd be

fun. I'll tell my kids about it. People

that watch this forever and I can win

$50,000 so I can pay off my credit card

debt." [snorts]

>> That's noble, dude.

>> Well, sometimes people have to do what

they have to do,

>> you know? But but there's also a lot of

people that want attention in any way

possible. And that's like

>> the people that are, you know, you see

so many people online that are doing

stuff that have [ __ ] nothing to say,

but they're just trying to find

something where people pay attention to

them. What's running up to people and

slapping them, throwing glasses of water

in their face, whatever they have to do,

>> anything they have to do to get

attention.

>> And if you trace that back, it kind of

started with reality shows where people

started to be able to get attention just

being a buffoon. There was a uh I I

covered a story. So So for those who

don't know me, I tell strange, dark, and

mysterious stories on the internet. Uh

and I covered a story that was like the

epitome of this. It's it's the idea of

doing anything for clicks. Uh I don't

know the dates, but it was like within

the past 1015 years, there was this

group of or there was this one Russian

influencer. This is this is I want to

say circa 2010. And she wanted to do

something really special for her

birthday to document her birthday and

and get as many clicks as possible. And

she filled this pool up with dry ice

>> water plus dry ice. And she invited all

her friends over and they like took they

documented themselves going into this

pool and she has I think hundreds of

thousands if not millions of followers

at the time. And so everyone's like,

"Oh, it's the big birthday celebration."

I think it was live. And they go into

the tub and the music's playing and then

no one comes out of the tub and it's

just this silence. They all die. They

all die from suffocation, I think it

was. Not exactly sure how you die from

dry ice, but it's it I think it it

eradicates the oxygen. And so who's just

died? But it's like how many people

died? I'm going to say I was like, yeah,

three. There you go. Three people.

>> What?

First of all, like dry ice, you can't

even get on your skin.

>> Yeah. You only jumped into a pool a bit.

I was thinking it just tortured their

skin.

Three die in Moscow party after dry ice

thrown into pool. I wonder how much dry

ice takes to kill three people.

>> I think a better question is what was

the engagement like on that post

[laughter] because in some ways that's

what it's all about.

>> Look at the name

eaterina deenko a popular Instagram

influencer. There we go.

>> Focusing on pharmaceutical products.

What? With more than a million

followers, two people died at the scene,

a third died in the hospital, Russia's

investigative committee said in a

statement announcing the criminal probe

into the incident. But you do not want

to get arrested and go to jail in

Russia.

>> No,

>> they don't [ __ ] around.

>> Generally not.

>> They do not [ __ ] around. Ask Britney

Grinder. They don't [ __ ] around.

>> She's still She's She's out now.

>> She's out. But she did nine months.

>> That's not good.

>> Was it nine or 10?

>> I think she was sentenced for nine

[ __ ] years. And that was for

marijuana possession at the airport.

>> It was she just had a CBD vape pen. I

mean, I guess it was probably marijuana,

but it was a vape pen. And they

>> jail

>> put her in jail, like hardcore jail for

nine [ __ ] years.

>> Periodically I'll see like images of of

Russian courtrooms. And I don't even

know the stories, but always it's like

the the accused is sitting inside of

like a jail cell that's in the middle of

the courtroom, like iron bars,

[laughter] and you know, whatever

they've done, they're facing the death

penalty. They have to be or they pissed

off Putin.

>> Yeah, dude. I don't know, man. But it's

it's a gnarly place over there.

>> Yeah. You better be friends with the

right people over there. You can't [ __ ]

around.

>> No, dude.

>> You can't [ __ ] around. That's why like I

mean how many times have like political

opponents of Putin gotten poisoned or

gotten murdered or

>> and not just him but a bunch of other

prominent figures that had other people

running against them and

>> it's a shady business over there dude.

>> Oh, it's the shadiest [laughter]

is the shady

>> business man for for some very

interesting people though.

>> Yeah, Russian people are fascinating.

I've met a a bunch of brilliant Russian

people,

>> you know.

>> Yeah, I found that they're very in my

limited exposure. Yeah. Here we go.

>> This guy tries to get out that little

slit first.

>> Yeah. Oh, wow.

>> Hold on a second. He's He doesn't give

up because he doesn't make it up.

>> Oh, that's right. He goes through the

roof.

>> He's smart.

>> I'm amazed that he was able to do that,

though.

>> What a [ __ ] psycho. Look at He looks

like a psycho, though.

>> He looks like a guy that should be dead.

[laughter]

>> Looks like a guy probably spent a lot of

time in jail.

>> Yeah, he was climbing through the

[ __ ] They're pulling his pants off.

[laughter]

They're going to tase him in his nuts.

That's not [laughter] okay. That's not

>> It's a rough spot. Rough spot on earth.

Tough people. Um, how did you get

started in this whole creepy

storytelling thing on YouTube?

>> Yeah. Uh, well, I I originally was in

the military. I was a I was a SEAL. I

did seven years in the teams. And then

when I got out in 2017, I

kind of drifted a little bit, you know.

Uh, I I did some work with with charity.

you said did some veteran charity work

and I I I don't know. I just sort of

floundered around for a couple of years.

Um and I'm I'm married. I got three

kids, you know, so I'm sort of like

trying to figure it out. I have this

small pension coming in that's enough to

sort of sub subsist on. But then uh I

actually I remember watching a lot of

Gary Vee. Um, and more specifically, I

saw Gary Vee was just every post he did,

it was like everybody, no matter how old

you are, no matter what you're doing,

you should be posting content online.

Like, everyone should be doing it. And

when I was in the military, you're sort

of in a bubble. I mean, you you you

certainly have access to the internet

and all the things that everybody else

does in the civilian world, but

especially in the SEAL teams, from my

experience, you're so like tribal. your

all your time is spent really with your

teammates or at the team. It's very

isolated and you don't even realize it.

And so I was not I didn't have social

media when I got out. I wasn't up to

date on modern stuff. And um Gary Vee

was sort of the first sort of civilian

person I was seeing that was like this

is what you do, you know, as a civilian.

You post constantly. And I I began in

addition to to doing some charity work I

was doing just trying my hand at social

media, you know, uh posting content

that's like so bad. It was

>> What was the intent?

>> You know, honestly, there there wasn't a

clear intent other than what the hell.

Like it doesn't cost I'm already paying

for the internet. I already own a phone

that effectively the worst that'll

happen is I will embarrass myself by

posting something that nobody cares

about or maybe my my friends and family

will see and it'll be embarrassing. But

my I've always been someone that's been

pretty comfortable with sort of

embarrassing myself. I mean, if you

think about SEAL training, a big part of

it is you're raising your hand in a

pretty public way, at least amongst your

circle of friends and family, saying,

"I'm going to go see if I'm good

enough." And a lot of people aren't. And

so I went through that process and and

was and I narrowly got through, but I

sort of had it in my mind that whatever,

like try stuff. And so social media

influenced heavily by Gary Vee, it was

like why not? I'll I'll post content.

Maybe someone will be interested.

Nothing worked. Nothing worked. I mean,

it wasn't even like some was close. It

was just nobody was paying attention.

And it was like, okay, I'm not

devastated. It is what it is. But then I

uh on a whim, uh I myself personally

love strange, dark, and mysterious

content. I I I used to love going to

there's a YouTube channel. I think it's

still around now. It's called Dark Five.

And all it is is just like crazy true

mysteries around the world, you know,

talking about how there's like, you

know, potentially military bases hidden

in Antarctica and there's the UFO

sightings here. I thought it was

fascinating.

>> And on a whim in 2020,

when my social media career is basically

non-existent, I was at this water park,

an indoor water park with my wife and

kids, Great Wolf Lodge in Pennsylvania.

Great spot. And I was like, you know

what I'm going to do? I'm going to try

something I haven't tried on on my

social media attempts so far. I'm going

to tell like a crazy mystery, a true

mystery that I think is really

interesting because I think it's cool.

It's the first time I'm I'm not trying

to copy trends or like do Gary Vee

content. I'm just going to like tell a

story I like. And I pull out my phone

and I tell this 60-second rendition of

this this mystery called the Diatlo Past

mystery. Are you familiar with this?

>> No.

>> Oh, great. It's a great story. I post

the 60-cond version of the story, but I

I'll tell you the story in a minute. I I

leave my phone in the room because I'm

going to the water park, indoor water

park. I don't want to get wet. So, I

leave it there, come back two hours

later, millions of views on this this

video, and I've never gotten views on

anything. And it's millions of views.

There's like

>> in just a few hours.

>> In a few hours, like 5 million views on

this video.

>> Wow. Was it Tik Tok?

>> Tik Tok. This is when Tik Tok was just

>> to the moon. So, there's this it's an

amazing story. You probably have heard

of it because it's one of those stories

that it's made its rounds on the

internet. Um, so in uh in remember I

told the 60-cond version was gritty but

it had the pictures and stuff. So in

1959 there were these nine hikers.

Actually, there was 10 these 10 young

like 20some year old hikers in Russia

and they were like the best mountaineers

in Russia at the time and they were

going for their what's called their

level three hiking test which sounds

sort of lame but it's it's effectively

at the time in Russia this is like the

top credential for mountaineers. If you

have this credential you are the best

mountaineer in the land. And the way the

test worked is effectively you're in a

class of your own at this level already.

It's sort of like being a PhD student

where you sort of create your own

material. You you have to do that for

this test. You map out a route that

you'll take that you know effectively

checks off all the boxes of difficulty.

You you put this this map down. Somebody

approves this is going to be hard enough

that if you successfully navigate this

course that you've mapped out in x

amount of time, if you do that, you you

you pass the test. you're a level three

mountaineer. And so these 10 hikers um

eventually, actually only nine left. One

had a a dental issue, so he's spared

himself. Nine of these hikers, they step

out. I think it was in January of 1959

to do this hike that's been planned out.

And they brought cameras along. Um and

they're like this young, they're they're

beautiful. They're all like couples.

They're all friends. And it's

>> sounds like an awesome opening to a

horror movie.

>> This this gets wild. If you've not heard

the story, you're in for a treat because

the pictures are crazy.

They step out and and the Eural

Mountains is is rugged. It's like these

huge windswept icy mountains. There's

like a couple sections of forest, but

it's just as rugged as rugged can be.

And so these hikers step off and they

start taking pictures. And even though

it's 1959,

the pictures they're taking could be

taken today. It's almost like selfie

style. They're they're smiling.

Everyone's in such good spirits. They

know they're going to pass this test.

This is this is this is nothing for

them. This is this is a victory lap. And

so off they go into the Eural Mountains.

It's going to be like a multi-day hike,

but they're expected to be out or I

guess finished with their route I think

on February 12th. So it's a several week

long hike February 12th and they were

supposed to send some message to say

they were complete with the hike.

February 12th comes and no messages

sent. No one gets word that these nine

hikers have successfully navigated this

treacherous stretch of the mountains.

And at first, to be honest, no one was

really that concerned because one,

there's nine of them. They are quite

literally some of the best mountaineers

in the land. If anybody can can

withstand the elements, it's them. And

so, there wasn't this immediate call to

action. But over the coming days after

February 12th, the families of these

these nine hikers got really concerned.

They're like, "We haven't heard from

them. Where are they?" like the

government needs to get involved.

Somebody needs to go looking for them.

And so eventually at the end of

February, a search party is launched for

these hikers. And at first it was just a

couple of volunteers. It was some

students from a university. It was it

was not that serious of a search, but

they eventually come across their

campsite and pictures are taken of their

campsite. So from a strategic

perspective, uh not that I claim to be a

mountaineer, but if you were going to be

setting up a place to if you were going

to set your tent up in a really rugged

environment like the Eural Mountains,

the worst place to put your tent is the

side of a windswept mountain where there

are no trees because you'll get no it'll

be relentless wind. Any weather's going

to be worse up there. You're on a slope,

avalanche risk. I mean, the worst place

you could put your your tent is the side

of a mountain. And so they're looking

for these missing hikers who were the

best hikers. And they find their tent,

their one canvas tent that's right in

the middle of this this pass called I

believe it's called the Datlav Pass,

which is why the the mystery has been

named the Datlav Pass. It's just one

lone tent and there's no trees, nothing.

It's just and so they go up to the tent.

The hikers are not there, but the tent

is is is collapsed as you see in the

picture there. and they look inside the

tent and there's clothes like cold

weather gear, there's pots and there's a

lot of equipment that you would imagine

they would have brought with them out

here is still in the tent. The hikers

are missing and they discover through

whatever testing they did that there was

a cut made in the tent that apparently

was made from the inside out. Someone

took a knife and I believe it was a

knife and cut the tent open from the

inside out. And so they have all this

equipment and they're thinking this is

we're in the middle of the Eural

Mountains. It's like negative -40

degrees Fahrenheit out here. It's it's

the middle of winter. You need this

equipment to survive. Where are the

hikers? They left all their equipment in

their tent. Where are they? And so the

search expanded exponentially at that

point because now these these volunteers

have discovered this incredible site.

They can't find the hikers. A bigger

search party comes out there and they

discover footprints that are about 100

feet away from where the tent was found.

It's a little bit further down the

mountain. And the footsteps, some of

them are two boots, you know, matching

boots of someone's steps. There's eight

or nine prints. They couldn't be sure.

Eight or nine sets of prints. Some have

only one boot on, like barefoot and a

boot. Others are just barefoot. And

remember, this is the middle of winter

in Russia.

But they're looking at these prints. And

if you look at the tent, it's been cut

from the inside. They've clearly

abandoned their tent. Something's

happened. But the the cadence of the

footprints as it as it picks up where

they found it near the tent, going down

the mountain, away from the the

campsite, they're walking. There's no

sense of urgency. Someone analyzed the

footprints and they're walking. So

they're walking down the mountain, some

without boots on, some with one boot on,

leaving most of their equipment behind.

And so these the search party, they

follow these prince down to the edge of

this this ominous looking forest.

There's only so many forests out there.

This is one of them. This relatively

small but fairly dense forest. And the

prince sort of stop right there at the

edge of the forest. And so they go into

the trees. They're looking around and

they eventually come across this big

cedar tree. And at the base of the cedar

tree is this little burned out fire,

like a puny little fire. And then

crouched around it is one of the the

hikers who's deceased. And there I

believe there's a picture. I don't know

if you can show it on your channel, but

sure. Yeah. So, there's a picture of one

of the hikers who is sort of almost like

he was trying to get warmth against this

fire.

>> I don't think it's that one. There are

some right near the cedar tree. I'm sure

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Um, one is dead and then another one is

is sort of nearby as well. So there's

two hikers that are both deceased from

the initial thought is exposure,

hypothermia exposure, but critically

there's a couple really weird things

about it. one. Yeah, I think that's

that's got to be the picture right

there. And that does not show the

bodies, but the bodies are are are near.

I think that's one right there to the

right of that.

>> That could be one of them. But picture

two bodies sort of laying scattered

nearby.

>> Mhm.

>> They look at the tree that was at the

base of the where the the fire was and

there are there are signs that something

was trying to climb the tree. There's

broken branches and the like and there's

human tissue. That sounds way more

extreme than it's supposed to, but

there's human tissue far pretty high up

this tree that suggests somebody had

climbed up the tree. Um, and then they

examined the bodies and they found one

of the one of the men had his hand part

of his hand he had bitten off and was in

his throat or it might have just been

human tissue as well, but it was clearly

in his mouth like he was eating his own

flesh or it at least arrived in his

mouth. So they're dead. And so the

search expands within this this forest

and they find three more hikers sort of

about 100 or 200 feet away from from

this tree. They're in similar condition.

They they they're all deceased. They're

all sort of ragged. They some of them

are only wearing, you know, a little bit

of clothing. They're all dead, but they

can't find the remaining four hikers. Um

they continue to search for the next

several days, but the the weather was

pretty severe. And so ultimately they

decided that at this point it's a

recovery mission. We're not we're not

going to find them. They're going to be

they're going to be dead. So they waited

until the thaw in May. And once the snow

had thought of it, they came out there

and they found this what looked to be

like the they believe that a snow fort

had been made three or 4 hundred feet

away from that cedar tree which they

wouldn't have seen it during the winter.

It was barely you wouldn't have seen it.

But it had melted down enough and the

the rest of the bodies were found in the

remnants of the snow cave and the uh the

four hikers that were in there just had

catastrophic injuries. Uh they're all

deceased. Uh the woman or one of them

had a a crush injury. His chest was they

compared the injury to his chest

equivalent to being struck by a car at

at high speed. However, he had no or

limited lacerations like there was no

impact to his body. his chest was sort

of just inexplicably caved in. And so he

he's been crushed. One guy, I think his

skull was fractured and a piece of his

skull was missing. But the one that

stands out is there was one hiker, a

woman who her lips and her eyes were

missing. And some accounts claimed that

the lips appeared to have been

surgically removed. At least there was

there was like uh very tight lines of

how her it was predation, animal

predation. You'd see tearing,

>> right? This was like relatively straight

lines where her lips were removed. And

then another hiker, his eyes were also

missing. And so they're all dead. And

they also noticed that the the woman was

wearing men's clothing or part some

clothing that was clearly not hers. Like

and then one of the men or a couple of

the men were wearing some of her

clothing. Like they had exchanged

clothing and they found trace levels,

albeit small, but trace levels of

radiation on some of the clothing. And

they're all dead. And so now all the

hikers have been found. And by this

point, this is in May of 1960, I believe

it is. At this point, this is a huge

story in Russia. This is equivalent to

being super viral today. Everybody was

talking about it. The families are very

outspoken about it. People want answers.

They want to know what happened. And so

the Russian government, they they

launched this investigation into what

happened out there in the Datlav Pass.

And quickly they shut down this

investigation. Like very quickly they

shut it down. And all the only things

people heard were there were numerous

reports from military personnel and some

civilians who apparently were in the

area in the Urals that claimed to have

seen glowing orbs like fireballs. I

think they described them as being balls

of fire uh and light shooting up and

down. It's hard to tell if it was in the

same area where the hikers were, but

there were all these independent reports

of strange lights over the Eural

Mountains that could corroborate or

could line up with when those hikers all

died. Um, and then also lastly, the the

Russian government came out and said,

"Well, uh, we've we've determined that

the nine hikers died from an

overwhelming or I think they called it a

compelling force." And then they closed

it. They they I believe they made it

completely confidential. No, the

families didn't get access to it. It's

completely shut down. And then uh in

2020, the reason I told it is because it

sort of began making rounds because I

believe some of the pictures had been

redacted and you could see these

pictures. And so I said at the start of

my video, at the end of this 60-cond

clip, you're going to Google two words.

And it was data pass. And so I teased

the story and said, Google it for

yourself. And it's a whole rabbit hole

of crazy stuff.

>> That's a crazy story. So compelling

force is a very weird way to describe a

bunch of people dying. Compelling force.

It might have been compelling natural

force, but I I

>> Well, that makes more sense. You froze

to death.

>> Well, the thing they could have come out

and said that,

>> right?

>> They basically said, "Yep.

>> Are you sure it's not a translation

issue?"

>> There are several translations of how it

came out and it effectively amounts to

some sort of compelling overwhelming

force.

>> Did does Russia have a different way of

distinguishing how people die in autopsy

autopsy reports than we do? Maybe.

>> I'm not sure to be honest. I'm not sure.

>> It might be like the way Russian

language works and way they describe

things. Like they might have categories

for deaths in a compelling natural force

might just mean like

>> freezing to death is in the same

category as like dying in the Mojave

Desert.

>> I think that that's that's I've always

assumed that probably what happened is

something rational happened. I mean,

when when you become hypothermic, you

can have it's called paradoxical

undressing, where at your final stage of

when you're so cold, you actually get

hot and you take your clothes off. Um,

and I would imagine if you're in the

final stages of dying, you might do some

funny things. And also,

>> would you cut your lips off though?

>> Would you surgically remove your lips? I

don't know.

>> Where are the lips? But then the

question is like, is there an image of

that? Like, can we see it? Like this is

one of the things that people talk about

all the time when it comes to crop

circles or excuse me um uh cattle

mutilation. I put them all in the same

category. Like who [ __ ] knows what that

is.

>> But cattle mutilation, one of the weird

things that that they associate with

extraterrestrials or whatever they think

it is is that these cuts are very

surgical. Yeah.

>> And it's not an animal just tearing

apart a cow. That these these cuts, they

look like they're made with a scalpel or

perhaps some sort of a laser. And also

these creatures are completely drained

of blood. So I'd like I wouldn't but

I've seen the cattle mutilation images

and you're like wow that is strange. I'd

like to see what their lips look like.

>> They uh I do know that actually and this

has nothing to do with the fact that I

posted about it because the Diatlove

pass gets posted about quite a bit. But

I think it was in 2022 uh Russia

actually reexamined the Datlav Pass

mystery now and and sort of said, "Okay,

we're going to look at it again." And

they determined that an avalanche, like

a slab of ice, broke loose. A huge slab.

I could, this could be totally wrong. I

know it's an avalanche or slab of ice

that they basically said was responsible

for all of this, that it led to them

somehow becoming exposed, hypothermia,

and the like.

>> But it doesn't really answer a lot of

the questions in my mind. It certainly

could have happened. As I told you, they

they for whatever. Also, why did they

stop in the middle of the the wind side

of the slope? I mean, you're They

probably were trying to make their way

across and they couldn't do it and they

said, "We have to stop, but just stop

right here. I can't go any further." And

they all argued and then they decided to

put a dent right there.

>> It's It's also I mean, you know this

better than [clears throat] anybody.

When you get tired, you make poor

decisions. That's what they're trying to

do to you in buds, right? They're trying

to make you quit. They're trying to

break you down, right?

>> When people get tired, they get very

irrational. And they also have very

little processing power. They don't

think about all the possibilities. What

could go wrong? to go right

>> and they think they can't possibly keep

going. And the problem is if you have

nine of you and one of you is an is a

[ __ ]

>> You know, you got a real problem. Like,

do you let Bob die or do you stay here

with Bob when you can keep going and Bob

is just like, we can't do this. Like

Bob, like that's the horror movie scene,

right? There's always one [ __ ] guy.

[laughter] He's like, "Fuck this, man.

I'm [ __ ] staying right here." Like

Jesus, Bob, we can keep walking. keep

walking.

>> That that reality

>> steps and then count 10 steps more and

then just keep doing that.

>> That uh what you're describing is such a

natural human thing which is when

someone when the lowest common

denominator in your group is struggling

even if you're frustrated a lot of times

people have an inclination to to

lowering what you're doing to to help

that person

>> in in SEAL training. I mean, what's made

clear immediately is to some degree

that's noble to some degree, but a lot

of times you're going to get more people

killed that way.

>> So those people that are going to hold

you back in training have to be

identified and kicked out now,

>> right?

>> And so it it became

>> clear that if you're the weakest link,

you're probably getting left behind in

training. But then in real life, it's

the reverse.

>> Buds is a genius way of filtering out

the [ __ ] It's genius. It's it's the

best way. You have to There's no there's

no other way to determine whether or not

someone will be able to handle extreme

pressure and stress other than putting

them through extreme pressure and

stress. And there's some people through

whatever for whatever reason at this

stage of their life, they can't handle

it.

>> And maybe they will be in the future.

Maybe this is going to be a good

experience for them and they're going to

toughen up. And look, Gogggins talks

about it all the time about when before

he ever got into the Seals, he was 300

lb and eating milkshakes and he was fat.

He couldn't run around the block, but he

decided to become a different person and

he did it. You can do that. But at that

moment, you're going to quit.

>> Yeah.

>> And so at that moment, we have to get

rid of you. And maybe you can become

someone in the future that won't quit,

but right now you're quitting.

>> Yeah. I uh I I sometimes get asked, not

often, but I've been asked, you know,

when you were going through selection,

did you ever have a moment where you

thought or you thought about quitting

and and you suppressed it? And I only

say this because I know this is this is

shared amongst a lot of the people that

I went through training with. I didn't I

did not have a moment where I thought,

"Oh boy, I'm on the precipice of

quitting. I better I better hold on."

Did I have moments where I was

questioning my life decisions and

questioning, "Can I even do this?"

Definitely. But there's something like

fundamentally different about trying and

failing and choosing to stop. And you

learn that that is something that I

believe is innate. Do you have the

ability to keep going through failure?

And they put a lot of test gates into

buds to basically force it upon you.

>> Most notably the um not even hell week.

Hell is the most well-known test of

endurance where you're awake for five

and a half days basically. But there's

one that's even simpler that it's it's

it's so easy if you're willing to do it.

Easy as a stretch. It's not that hard,

but you really need to be committed to

doing it. And it's the 50 meter

underwater swim.

>> You do it day two of the first phase of

training. And everybody knows you're

going to do it. All you have to do is

okay,

>> get in the pool, swim one length, and

then swim back without surfacing until

you're done. It is probably just beyond

what's comfortable for someone who's a a

decent enough swimmer, but you have

plenty of lead time for this. You know,

this is going to happen. People will

train for years before they go.

When you when I did it, the first leg,

it's stressful, but as soon as you've

made the turn and you're on your way

back, you realize that if you've

committed to doing it, you're like, "Oh,

dude, this is this is really not bad.

It's so quick. It's so short. It's all

it's all over." People that would quit

on that didn't quit at the end of the

50. They quit on the first leg. You're

not physically done yet, but you're

mentally done.

>> I mean, I'm generalizing, but you see

that that type of phenomenon in training

quite a bit where it's are you prepared

to keep going through adversity or are

you just going to say it's too much and

I don't want to do it anymore? I wonder

if they've ever sat down and tried to

engineer a program to alter people's

psychology.

You know, you would think that the more

people that you can get that would be

able to figure out a way through

something very difficult where your mind

wants to quit, your body wants to quit,

the more people that you could figure

out how to train to that position, the

better. Or is it like I have friends

that are MMA coaches that don't want to

work with anybody who needs a mental

coach.

>> Interesting.

>> They're like, "You need a mental coach,

you're in the wrong business." And they

they say that like those two good those

guys are too unreliable. They'll tell it

to you like you need a mental coach,

like you're too in your own head. You're

not going to be able to perform. Yeah.

>> There guys are going to be able to lose,

dust themselves off, figure it out, and

come back and be stronger. And then

there's some guys that like every big

moment is the moment overwhelms them and

they're they're just they just cave to

the pressure. They just can't handle it.

And then they go through some sort of

mental coaching session and but the core

their personality whatever it is that

that's about them, what makes them them

is just fragile for whatever reason. And

the the question is, I wonder if they've

ever tried to engineer a program to

strengthen people's psychology just the

same way you can strengthen people by

lifting weights or by running or

whatever. I wonder if there's a like

there was a concerted effort to say

like, well, we have so many people

crashing out. What if we had 50% less

people crashing out, then we'd have 50%

more elite operators? I know that when I

went through training and I I have no

idea if it's still the case now, but I

was in I was in SEAL training in earnest

in 2011 and 2012 and there were

psychologists on on staff that you

didn't you did not go and frequently see

them by any stretch, but I remember

there being parts of training which were

sort of funny because they punctuated

the brutality of training. It would be

we'd be out, you know, doing the

obstacle course for an hour and then we

doing a four mile run, then we're

swimming, then we're doing this, we're

getting beat up and then like, "All

right, now go in the classroom."

[laughter] You go in the classroom and

you're and you're talking to this woman

who's a psychologist and she's teaching

you how to like uh it's called arousal

control, you know, how to how to take

down your your mental state in the

middle of high stress moments. And all

the instructors are on the side like you

better listen to this, you know, and

it's it's just funny. Uh so there was

attempts made but [snorts] I I I coming

from coming from having done it the the

there's such a wide variety of people

that are successful in training that

it's I I have seen and heard that it's

hard to pinpoint what is what is the

appropriate indication you're going to

be successful. Like that's the thing

they're trying to identify is what are

the the pools of people that

traditionally do well in SEAL training

because they're they're trying to figure

out ways to strengthen. But the two

things they found, there's two there's

two places where the most mentally tough

people in terms of success in SEAL

training. Uh one is wrestling. Basically

any level of wrestling wrestlers have an

incredibly high success rate in buds and

water polo. Those are the two that they

have determined through their studies

are the grittiest, most resilient folks

when it comes to seal training.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> Water polo. So in water polo, how deep

is the water?

>> I think it's more that they tread water.

the whole [ __ ] time.

>> Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Like,

is the water so deep that they can't

touch the ground?

>> No. No. You're treading the entire time.

>> Whoa. And you're playing a game,

>> dude. There was a guy.

>> That's crazy.

>> There was a guy in my class. So, the the

way it works is you have your enlisted

guys and there's, you know, upwards of a

hundred dudes in a class that are

enlisted. And then you have, I think,

maybe eight to 10 that are officer

candidates. It's, yeah, we're all SEAL

candidates. That's true. But the

difference between an officer candidate

and an enlisted swine candidate is

enormous. The guys over here, the

enlisted guys are just like salt of the

earth. Just like, I don't give a [ __ ]

We're going to see what happens. The

officer candidates, they have some of

the most impressive resumes that you can

have as like a 20some year old kid. You

have dudes that are I was a road

scholar. I played I walked on to the

Stanford football team. Uh that level of

prestige. And also I'm my family's

friends with George Bush and uh and I'm

also like a world-class swimmer and I'm

like an expert marksman. Those are the

dudes that become your officer

candidates because there's so few slots

on any given year for these spots. So

they're they're they're so vetted that

virtually all of them succeed. It's so

rare that an officer candidate does not

pass. Like an officer who's in buds, you

might as well just call him a SEAL at

that point because the vetting is crazy

for SEAL. Not on the enlisted side.

We're still figuring that out. But the

officer side, they're highly vetted. And

one of the guys that was one of my

officers uh in one of the classes I was

in was a water polo water polo player

from the University of Tennessee. And

he's this big big strong guy. He's an

awesome dude. And uh there's this part

of training halfway through training.

It's second phase. It's broken into

three phases. And it's it's the water

phase. And it's it's really

statistically everybody who gets to

second phase mostly makes it through.

But it's because you've already passed

through so many test gates in first

phase like hell week and the 50 meter

underwater swim that this is already the

pool of people that's just going to push

through the misery and pass stuff. So

it's misleading. The second phase of

training I would argue is exponentially

more challenging than first phase. But

the only people who do it are through

first phase and oh 90% of people pass

second phase but it's really hard. And

there's two tests in particular within

second phase that are notoriously just

brutal. Uh, one of them is called pool

competency, which is a 20-minute exam of

your ability to to fix problems with

your scuba tanks underwater, where

basically you go to the bottom of the

pool with your tanks on, and when your

test begins, you're in the you're in the

section of this huge pool called the

combat training tank. It's a there's

like the sixt section, then it slopes

down to the 9 ft section, and then it

slopes down to the the 15t section. And

your test takes place in the 9 ft

section, and you just crawl along the

lane marker as if you're doing lap

swimming. There's a lane on the bottom

of the pool. There's like eight or nine

lane markers. And you crawl back and

forth only in the 9 ft section. And two

instructors per student come down and

turn your air off, tie knots in your

hoses, and as soon as you're being

touched, you got to go into the fetal

position and wait for like the attack to

stop. It takes like 15 seconds, 30

seconds, you're out of air. And this is

a 20-minute test. You're building up

hypercapneia as you go. Um, and then you

got to fix your problems. And the

problems get progressively harder to

solve. But the procedures they teach you

are the same procedures for every

problem. If you go to step one, it

doesn't work, you go to step two. If

that doesn't work, you go to step three

until you go all the way through your

steps. But it teaches you calm. So even

though you're on the last problem you're

going to solve at minute 18 and you're

about to pass out, you have to show them

that you'll do step one, step two, all

the way through. So it's it's about

being I was horrible at this test, by

the way. I passed by by the skin of my

teeth. This dude passes the test first

try, but that's not where the story

comes in. This this this water polo

player, he blazes through that test. No

problem. The other test is just the

tread. That's all it's called, the

tread. You spend five minutes in the

pool with your Twin 80 tanks on, which

are neutral in the water. They're

they're pretty heavy outside of the

water, but they're they're cumbersome on

your back. You got no fins. You got a

weight belt on, hands up out of the

water.

>> Weight belt.

>> Yeah. It's it's like 5 lbs or something.

And you tread for five minutes. And that

that's the whole test.

>> Hands out of the water.

>> Hands out of the water.

>> So, you only tread with your legs.

>> No fins.

>> Whoa.

>> Tanks on it. The only the only way to do

it realistically is imagine imagine

hopping on like a bike like in the gym

and just sprinting until you have full

muscle fatigue. Hold it for like 3 4

minutes and don't it it doesn't not even

you don't even need to go that fast but

it's constant. That's the only way to do

it. Unless you're an exceptionally

talented water polo player who's

mastered the art of the egg beater where

they they basically found a way to move

their legs. That's like the most

efficient way to tread water. And this

dude, I kid you not, who blazed through

pool comp first try, no problems

whatsoever, was like joking around after

his test. He got he gets him for the

tread and he could he could hold himself

almost to his belly button, probably

like nipple to belly button line fully

out of the water. Just no problem. just

no problem. Like practically smiling

because he knows this is my domain. I

can do this all day long. It was the

most incredible thing I'd [laughter]

ever seen.

>> That's crazy. I would have never thought

of that.

>> First of all, I didn't know the water

polo players had to tread the entire

time, which is insanely impressive.

Like, how long is a game?

>> Well, I don't know if they can go to the

edge and hold on periodically, but if

you watch water polo,

>> most of the time they're just treading.

>> I'm no water polo player, but my

understanding is that the game is played

while treading. [sighs]

Yeah,

>> I never would have imagined, but now

that you described it that way, like

that might be the hardest sport on

earth.

>> Oh, dude,

>> that makes baseball look so easy.

>> Remember like David [laughter] Wells of

the Yankees? He's like a huge fat guy

smoking cigarettes in between innings.

>> Hey, Bruth. Dude, it's crazy.

>> Hey Ruth, eating hot dogs, big old

belly.

>> Oh man,

>> that's crazy.

>> I remember in in boot camps, this is not

even before you even get to Buds.

There's there's actually it's funny the

when you go in, you know, as I I went in

as a civilian, so I signed this contract

where basically you say, "Okay, I'm

going to go to boot camp, become a

sailor, and then I'll have my shot at

going to Buds." It's called the SEAL

Challenge Contract. And you know, the

way I looked at it is I'm like, "Okay,

I've prepared for BUDS. That's what I',

as a civilian, that's what I was

training for. I didn't think at all

about boot camp, like what's what's two

months of Navy boot camp going to be?"

Because what my head is focused on is is

buds that comes after. So when I shipped

out to boot camp, I I had put virtually

no thought into what those two months

were going to be like in Great Lakes,

Illinois. I figured it was like, "Ah,

whatever. I'll like march around, like

fold some clothes, you know, whatever."

And then and then I'll go do the real

stuff out in San Diego. And so I get to

uh I get to Chicago and it was like a a

reality check because you quickly

realize that first of all if you're

trying to be a SEAL and and you're on

the SEAL challenge contract when you get

to Great Lakes you're segregated into a

separate group. They're called the 800

division. I don't know if this still

exists now but it did in 2010.

And there really aren't any SEALs or

spec ops that are at Great Lakes that I

mean there's a few, but for the most

part, you're you're you're working with

ordinary sailors that are putting you

through training, but imagine you're

you're an ordinary sailor. And God love

them. I've worked with amazing sailors

across the Navy.

And here comes the SEAL recruits in the

800 division. They're civilians. They

they're not even sailors yet. There is

an enormous amount of resentment towards

those that show up like, "Yeah, I'm

going to Buds." Like there's just an

attitude of like the instructors, they

they want you to understand that like

you don't have a clue what you're

getting yourself into. And so in boot

camp those two months, your your

instructors are not seals, but they just

like torture you because they're like,

"This is nothing compared to what you're

going to have in buds." And and one of

the things we would do is is there was

all sorts of stupid stuff like push-ups

and whatever. But there was this

treading thing that we had to do where

we'd go in the pool at like 5:00 in the

morning and like it's so cold and they

would line us up so we're all facing

like I if you were I'd be right behind

you looking at the back of your head,

you'd be looking at the next guy's back

of his head and they'd give us bricks

and you're just treading and you got to

pass the brick up and down the line and

periodically they'd give you two bricks.

And so if anybody doesn't hold up their

end of the bargain quickly the bricks

get handed off to like one person and no

one wants the brick. you don't have fins

on or anything and guys are like sinking

into the water like truly about to pass

out and black out. But the level of

oversight not great because it's sort of

like you don't know what you're getting

into. Tread, hold those bricks and it's

just mad. And they would leave us in

there treading with bricks for so long

that you're like I'm going to drown. I'm

literally going to drown if I keep this

up. And then suddenly it would be over

and you're like on the pool deck like

vomiting and you're thinking to

yourself, "Holy [ __ ] like is this this

is not even as bad as Buds?" And then

you get to Buds and you're like, "No,

[laughter]

>> no, that was worse."

>> Well, that's probably good then.

>> It was nice. Yeah,

>> that's funny. Had those guys even been

through buds?

>> No.

>> Okay, so they were just making tough

stuff to do. [snorts]

>> Put on all your turtlenecks. And we like

put on all our stupid like neoprene

turtlenecks, like seven of them, cuz you

have all this stupid clothing in your

rack. And like march around the the

compartment, the room you're in, and we

would just like spend hours like

marching around the compartment,

sweating our ass off. in our like

turtlenecks. It's stuff like that. Or we

do bird watching where they would have

us just face a wall and to be attention

for like 2, three hours just staring at

paint, but it's just arbitrary. It's

like you don't know what you're getting

into. Buds is going to be so much worse.

And like you don't even know what you're

talking about.

>> Look how weird people want to [snorts]

do that to people.

>> There was a lot of like you don't know

what you're getting yourself into. I

know more than you. I've done real stuff

in the Navy. But like they have this

moment where we're still civilians and

we we have we haven't gone to training

and they know that virtually all of us

are going to quit. So this is a safe

group to sort of flex around, you know.

>> Wow.

>> So it was it was I hated boot camp.

[laughter] I when I got out of boot camp

uh in boot camp I I was drinking their

coffee and I was convinced it was it was

caffeinated coffee. It wasn't. And I I

told myself it was I'm a big coffee

drinker. And when I got out of boot

camp, I went to to dinner with my family

and I didn't eat anything. I just drank

like nine cups of coffee and got so

jacked up on caffeine and just told

stories about boot camp.

>> They don't give you caffeinated coffee.

>> Well, there was like it was it was

coffee, but I mean like it was like you

pushed a button and this brown [ __ ] came

out and it was like said cafe something

on it. I I was like that's coffee. I'm

not going to question it cuz I don't

want to I don't want to psych myself

out. out and I was drinking the shitty

co coffee.

>> Yeah, have some coffee. [laughter] Have

>> some real coffee.

>> Jesus Christ, you're freaking me out.

>> Oh man.

>> Yeah, that's funny.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean what we were talking

about before that there's no other

process to figure out whether someone's

going to be able to handle pressure than

to put them through it and see what

happens. If you're passing bricks and

maybe that's not the best example of it

because it seems like those guys were

being a little sadistic.

>> Yeah. And probably at least you would

imagine that what they're doing in Buds

is tried and proven. They know what

they're doing. These guys, it seems like

they were just getting off on the fact

they could tell you what to do. This

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so when I so I got hurt in Afghanistan

in 2014. Um and after I got hurt, I'll

tell you in a minute what happened. I I

got debriefed essentially by the senior

commander of the group that I was a part

of. And it it was just like, hey, tell

us what happened, what went wrong, what

would you have done differently? And and

truthfully, and I I wasn't kissing

anybody's ass. I wasn't trying to be,

you know, a follow the rules kind of

guy. I just said, "You know what? The

training works like un the training is

unbelievable. I saw it for myself

firsthand." So, we were in Afghanistan

in 2014, and this was the tail end of

this is my only combat tour I did. It

was my first deployment. This is 2013,

2014. And we had been going into this

town called Zarenshar, which is this

fairly urban Afghan town that was

literally on the other side of the one

paved road, route Utah they called it,

that ran through Afghanistan, got IEDed

constantly. We were on one side of the

road behind some Hesco barriers and

Zorgenshar is like this sprawling pretty

large urban village and historically I

don't know how long it had been going on

for but there had just been non-stop

fighting in Zorgenshar between NATO

forces and loads of different factions

of fighters the Taliban Pakistani

fighters you name it and so when we got

in country in 2013 we turned over with

Seal Team 8 and they said basically You

know, there your job here is to try to

quell the the flow of suicide bombers

into Kabul. And there was a couple of

things they told us to focus on, but

really if you want some action, you just

go to Zorgenshar because they're so

battleh hardened in there, the people

that are still there that if you go in

there, they're going to fight you. You

know, if you want to find weapon caches,

they're going to be in there. And so

over the course of the deployment, this

is like five months in, we had gone in

to Zaren a a great deal. And truthfully,

it wasn't like we walked in and it was

crazy every time, but we definitely got

engaged. There was definitely more

contacts there than anywhere else. But

on this one day, this was like 5 months

into the deployment. This is uh in

April, so it was the fighting season had

started, so the warmer weather had come

in. And we sort of put ourselves in a

terrible position a little bit by

accident. So the city, it's not really a

city, it's it's a it's a village, but

it's it's bigger than a village. It's

somewhere between a city and a village

for Afghanistan. So, it's like mud huts

but like tight together. Um, and it's

really like well defined, you know, it's

almost like the edge of Zorgen just

becomes vacant desert on the outsides.

It's like this really isolated spot. We

entered the city with our vehicles and

then began infilling into the city. I

forget exactly what our our purpose was.

I think there was like a bomb maker or

something we were going after.

But the the rules of engagement that we

were operating under effectively said

you can't enga you can't offensively

engage anyone unless there's a couple of

factors that could allow you to. But for

the most part you need to get shot at

first to then shoot back. That's sort of

the gist. And the people we would get

into skirmishes with knew that a lot of

times and they'd be tactical about how

they would go about shooting at us. And

so we start making our infill from the

edge of, you know, the the city and we

get into this little narrow area where

we knew we'd have to enter into this

courtyard and we start hearing chatter

over the radios. So we we we had the

ability to listen to just the open

source radio that the fighters would use

in the in the village and we heard them

talking to each other and it was clear

they had spotted us. We're it's broad

daylight. This is not a shock, but they

were clearly talking to each other and

making plans to to wait until we and it

was only 20 or 30 of us plus our partner

force wait until we got into that

courtyard before you open up on them.

Um, and I I don't know if this was said

explicitly, but the idea was they're not

going to do anything due to the rules of

engagement. We can let them come into

the courtyard and then open up on them.

And there's a couple twostory buildings

that overlook the courtyard. So, it's

pretty gnarly.

um our team lead who was freaking

awesome is freaking awesome.

He stopped us and he's like, "Hold on a

minute." We took cover behind this

bridge that was right behind us and he's

like, "Wait, let's let's figure this

out." But we realized that now that we

know where they are, we know they're in

those secondstory buildings overlooking

that courtyard. They're now they can see

us. If we go forward, we can't engage

them proactively. We can't like call in

an air strike. We have to walk into a

courtyard that has angles down on us. So

it's like basically walking into an

ambush. That's a that's a bad idea. But

if we go the other way, if we retreat, I

told you that the edge of Zaren, it's

there's no cover. It's just open desert,

if you will. And so there wasn't really

a good way to to xfill back to our

vehicles without getting shot in the

back. They don't have rules of

engagement. They can shoot at us anytime

they want. And so we realized because of

where they're positioned, we either had

to go forward into effectively a known

ambush or retreat and hope they don't

get the drop on us and shoot one of us.

And it's a pretty high chance someone

was going to get shot if we exfelt. And

so we sat there, we were thinking about

it and we ultimately made the decision

like, hey, we we're Navy Seals. Let's

just go forward and and process the

threat. And so into the courtyard we go.

It's on body cam and you know, it was

eerie. I remember walking into this

courtyard again, broad daylight, it's

quiet. We had seen women and children

run out of the village as we approached.

So, we knew only people here are going

to be fighters and just machine guns

opened up on us in this courtyard. And I

say this without I don't mean this in a

sort of crass way, but thankfully the

only people who were hit in the opening

volley were our dog and I believe two of

the Afghan partner force guys that they

got shot because if if you if you're

going to survive this, you need the

SEALs. You don't need you don't need

anybody else. the seals to get out of

this. And so we all took up our

positions sort of. We expected this to

happen and it it became like this crazy

disjointed like onesie twoosie breaking

off clearing buildings sometimes by

yourself just madness for like the next

6 hours. It slowed down. It was not

constant but it was like six hours of

urban sketchy roofto roof building to

building shooting. Um and we were sort

of getting our asses kicked. I mean, we

just we kept we kept seeing people that

would open up on us around uh like a

corner. We'd go after them and they'd be

gone. And we knew there were tunnels dug

into the ground all over the place for

people to escape. Um and it just seemed

like everyone we were shooting at would

would vanish. And so finally, it's late

at night. We've been there for 6 hours

or so and we've gotten beaten up. No

one's been killed on our side. The dog's

fine. Um and we were sort of like, man,

I guess we just got to go. We, you know,

we didn't really accomplish anything. We

just kind of got beat up today and we'll

come back another time. You know, it

didn't go well. And as we're getting

ready to leave and remember at this

point, our group of 20 some odd seals,

there's Afghan partner force as well,

but the SEALs that were on the ground,

we had broken up into different fire

teams, little groups of dudes. Um, and I

was with a fire team that was close to

the exit we were going to be taking. And

one of the the drones overhead uh I

think was being flown by somebody in Las

Vegas. They called out that they had

seen what appeared to be military age

man men so ma'ams as they're called sort

of in the vicinity of where we would be

exfilling out of the city. And they

weren't saying you better go over there

and like shoot them because rules of

engagement say you can't you can't do

that. It was just sort of a hey be aware

as you exit they might be setting up on

you as you're you're leaving the city.

And so our fire team happened to be

closest and we decided we would just go

over there and take a look. Our our

understanding is is now it's night time.

We're on night vision. We we believed

based on what was being passed to us

that we could go down this alleyway that

would come to a a tea intersection and

when we reached the end of this alleyway

there'd be this low wall like six foot

tall wall and we could peer over the

wall into this field where these mamms

are and they didn't know if they they

didn't even know who they were. It could

have been kids. It could have been

nothing but we we believed we'd be able

to look over the wall and look out

somewhere on the other side of this

field. We'll see whoever these people

are and make an assessment of what to

do. So, we super sneaky make our way

down this alleyway being as quiet as we

can. We get to that low wall and

immediately we start hearing someone

talking. It's it's not our guys. We

start hearing poson being spoken on the

other side of the wall and we realize

that there's been a mistake, a lost and

trans. Something's been miscommunicated

to us. We are now closer than you and I

are right the second to what actually

was military age men. There was at least

two. I've heard as many as five. I

actually don't know the exact number,

but there were fighters

hiding on the other side of that wall.

Intentions unclear, but they're right

there and they haven't heard us yet. And

they're nervous. We can tell they're

nervous. They're right on the other side

of the wall. And we are in a tough tough

spot here because there's seven of us.

We're we're so close to them that if

someone even so much just like farts

right now, they're going to hear us. And

so our team leader, who was incredible,

he went on to go to team six. He's one

of the best dudes I've ever met. He he

he had to make an on the ground

decision.

We got to engage these guys so we can

see they have weapons. One guy looked

over and said they have weapons. This is

all nonverbal. We're like making hand

signals and stuff on night vision. And

so one of our guys or the team leader

gets down on a knee and he tells one of

the guys next to me to stand on his leg

and start shooting. And so over the wall

he starts shooting. And the there was at

least two guys over there that already

had grenades they had pulled the pins

out on. So there this is this is the

moment they've had this. They're holding

the grenades for this. So as soon as the

shooting started, grenades come over the

wall and this is there's a video of this

of the grenade comes. You can't really

tell. Uh but it literally hit my

shoulder. One of the grenades hit my

shoulder and then fell to the ground and

detonated. But in the in the second that

this happened, it's we were under a a

drone that had a a targeting strobe down

on us. It was a flashing infrared strobe

on us. Imagine if like God had a

flashlight and he was turning it off and

on rapidly and you can only see the

light on night vision and it's this cone

of light that you're in and this this

super intimate fight is happening and

and I'm watching this grenade time

really slowed down. I see it for a

second cuz the lights on, the light

comes off, it disappears. I see it for a

second and I remember feeling it hit my

shoulder and I'm I'm not shooting. I'm

not doing anything. I'm just next to the

wall as all this shit's happening and

the thought I had was like, "Fuck, it's

going to blow my head off. I know I'm

dead. We're all probably going to die

here in a second, but my mom won't be

able to see me again. Like, there will

be no open casket. That's the first

thought that goes through my head. My

head's going to be blown the [ __ ] off.

Hits my shoulder. And this is again, in

a fraction of a second, the light comes

on, goes off, it falls down lower, and

it's like halfway down now. It's like

halfway to the ground. And I'm thinking,

"Oh [ __ ] I'm definitely going to die,

but maybe my face will be intact and my

my mom can see me again." Light goes

off, on, off, on. It lands in the ground

and I turn slightly and I'm like, "Oh

[ __ ] I might just lose my legs." Like,

this is great. Like, I might live. And

so, all of us are in the lethal range,

assuming this is a frag grenade, which I

don't think couldn't have been. It had

to be an old school pineapple grenade.

We're all all of us are in this horrible

lethal zone. And two grenades go off. I

I I tell people it felt like someone

took a handful of rocks and just threw

them at my backside. It didn't hurt. It

just felt like someone threw something

at me and then I'm just down on the

ground and my my memory of what happened

versus what actually happened or

couldn't have been more different. It

would take me years before I actually

sat down and debriefed this with the guy

who ultimately saved my life. But my

memory is I go down and I couldn't get

my gun. My gun had been the strap the

little strap had been blown off. My

helmet had been blown off. So I'm not on

night vision. And I'm just there's

pretty good illumination that night, but

it's dark and it's just [ __ ] chaos

there. The thing is is the fighters in

that town, they didn't give a [ __ ] about

killing each each other. If they if they

could kill me, they'd kill their

teammates as well. And so RPGs are just

being arbitrarily fired from all not all

across the city, but from other

locations, just in the vicinity of where

this is happening, because there was a

lull before this. So, it's just [ __ ]

madness. And I couldn't stand up. I

can't move. and I got dragged by one of

my teammates. So, this is my memory. I

got I got dragged from I'm at the head

of the tea there. They brought me down

the stem of the tea, if you will. And I

just got placed up against a wall. And

I'm sitting there and I have these

tourniquets that are on my chest that we

we rubber band them to our chest

specifically so they can be easily

broken off and applied to stop the

bleeding in in your limbs. And I was so

weak and [ __ ] up from this blast that

I literally couldn't pull the

tourniquets off. And there's I don't

even know if anyone's alive basically at

this point. I don't even know what's

happening down in the contact zone which

is like 20 feet away from me. All I hear

is gunfire. It's madness. And at any

point I'm expecting fighters to run down

the alleyway and [ __ ] kill me. Like

I'm dead. I'm dead no matter what here.

And so I had this this true in my mind

like near-death experience where I I sat

there. It's relatively well aloomed and

I I suddenly lost my hearing. like it's

gone, completely gone. And there's good

illumination. So, I can see this small

alleyway. I can see there's flashes of

light as, you know, rounds are coming

in. And I just I'm like I'm in my head.

I'm so aware that I'm alive, but I'm

dying. And then um my vision goes I'm

completely blind. Like can't see. I

can't hear anything. But I was so lucid

in my mind, so aware that I was alive.

And I tell people that on a day-to-day

basis, you live and you don't think

about it. You don't wake up and and

actively live. You don't think today I'm

going to breathe. My today my heart's

going to beat. You just do it because

that's your entire experience is being

alive. And your body knows how to do

that. Your brain knows how to be alive.

You also know how to die. You just

haven't done it yet. And I had this

really distinct feeling of like, oh

[ __ ] this is what it feels like when

you shut down. It didn't hurt. It wasn't

sad. It was just It couldn't have been

more matterof fact. And all I was

thinking about, I had two thoughts. I

had um what will my obituary say?

Nothing in terms of substance, but will

it say Jonathan Allen was killed in

action [laughter] or John Allen? Uh so I

was hung up on that. And I was also

thinking about my wife and how she'd be

notified at home. And I was thinking, I

wish we'd had kids because now my I

don't have a legacy. And so I had this

feeling of like letting go. I don't

know. That's so cliche, but it

physically felt like I had let go. And I

remember feeling the impact of the

ground as I sort of killed over. And I

thought that was it. Like I'm I'm about

to die. This is the end, you know? But

then out of [ __ ] nowhere,

the legend that he is, his name is Kyle.

He's a seal. [ __ ] comes out of

nowhere and he grabbed me and he put

tourniquets on my legs. I'm still like

in my blacked out zone here, but I

slowly regain sight and hearing. And the

scene we're in is still terrible.

There's still chaos happening

everywhere. And Kyle, who's a he's a

sniper, he's a medic. He's a he's the

calst dude under pressure. He's like,

"Hey, it's going to be okay, buddy. It's

all good. Stop the bleed. Like, just

stay here. Like, you know, put your gun

up if you can. I'll be right back." Like

literally in hell all around us.

Couldn't have been more calm. He just

runs down back to the contact zone. He

comes back up. He brings another guy out

whose lung had collapsed. He's patching

him up, smiling. Everything's fine.

Meanwhile, so I'm starting to see now as

I'm regaining consciousness, if you

will. I'm seeing my teammates who have

also been [ __ ] up from this grenade,

but only me and one other guy were so

affected by the grenade that we couldn't

function. It was me and this this guy

whose lung had collapsed. He was like

barely able to breathe. So, we're down,

but the other like five dudes, it's like

it's your job to get us out of here now

because we're [ __ ] We are pinned down

and [ __ ] here. One guy, the team lead,

in one ear, he was working with multiple

air assets overhead, calling in what's

called a danger close air strike, which

is you're effectively calling in an air

strike on yourself. You need special uh

initiing from your higher officer. I

think I think your command, not your

commanding officer, like one more senior

than you has to approve the drop because

in essence, you could kill yourself

doing it. So he was calling in an air

strike that needed to be exact, like

[ __ ] exact on the other side of that

wall. And then in the other ear, he's

communicating with the rest of our our

desperate teams, which are broken up

across the city, trying to tell them

where we are. He's got two comms

happening, and he's physically pulling

people out of the contact zone with Kyle

to get them to cover. And he's engaging

the enemy, and we're getting shot at.

Holy

>> com.

>> He's a He's a He's a team six, that

dude.

>> Everybody went into like flow state. I

don't even know how to describe it. And

and I I'm [ __ ] worthless. I'm I'm not

in flow state. I'm [ __ ] dead state.

Uh they hoisted me up and we ran like a

mile cuz there was no way to extract us

because of how densely populated it was