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>> Imagine this, a climate damaged world

where advertising funded robots known as

hums provide all the manual labor and

constant surveillance over society. May

Webb has just lost her job to AI and is

now using proceeds from an experimental

operation to take her family on a

holiday to one of the last bits of

nature left, a botanical garden.

This is the world of Hum, a novel by the

author Helen Phillips and the winner of

the 2026 Climate Fiction Prize. It's a

book where anxieties about AI, climate,

and capitalism collide. Helen is a

professor of creative writing at New

York's Brooklyn College and has written

six books. I got the opportunity to ask

her about the inspiration for hum and

how she's used her own anxieties to fuel

her writing. This is Zero. I'm Akshhati.

This week, how climate fiction is

expanding.

This is the latest episode in Zero's

Imagine series exploring how art is

interpreting the climate crisis. You can

find the previous episodes in the series

with authors like Kim Stanley Robinson,

Abby Dar, and George Saunders linked in

the show notes. Here's my interview with

Helen Phillips.

Helen, welcome to Zero.

>> It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so

much.

>> Now, without spoiling it, can you just

give a brief summary of Hum to the

listeners who may not have read the book

already?

>> Of course. So Hung begins with the

protagonist May losing her job to

artificial intelligence. And desperate

to make money for her family, she

becomes a guinea pig in an experiment

that alters her face so that it can't be

recognized by surveillance. And with the

proceeds from this strange operation,

she buys her family three night passes

to this one beautiful remaining green

space within their city of the future

where there are still animals and

wilderness for her children to

experience that. It is, as I said, set

in a somewhat dystopian future, though

many readers have told me it is fairly

recognizable. And significantly, the

world alongside humans is inhabited by

super intelligent embodied robots called

hums. Uh, hence the title.

>> It was a really fun read. It's it's

super fast-paced. And yes, I mean,

dystopian

parts come through in the story for

sure, but there are also funny parts.

There are these vignettes as your

readers have told you which are

completely recognizable like the face

that people make when they get sucked

into their phone which we see all around

us as we're you know traveling or

commuting or then these like strange

interactions that we have at least with

chatbots these days but essentially ones

that you would have with robots as well

where there's just something off about

the conversation like the instantly

recognizable and really uh lovely

scenes.

But if we focus on uh the climate side

of this because in your description that

doesn't play a central role in the plot

of the story but it is there constantly

in the background and in direct ways as

people are either reading the news about

it, the characters are dealing with air

quality. How much did you have to think

about what it is climate is doing in the

story? Well, I would say that for better

or worse, one of my greatest

inspirations as a writer is my anxiety.

And that's very much true with this

novel. Um, when I was setting out to

write Hum, I was anxious very much about

climate change. I was anxious about

artificial intelligence. I was anxious

about the future that we are creating

for our children. And so that climate

anxiety really suffuses the whole book,

as you say, in all sorts of little ways.

the her my protagonist May has a

daughter who's very anxious to go

outside when the air quality is poor and

is really keyed into that and checks

that every morning to see what the air

quality is even the fact that May spends

all of this money quite foolishly I

might add she does not have the money to

spare to go to the botanical gardens but

because her children don't have a lot of

ways to access nature because of the

detriment of the environment this is

such a priority to her that she spends

her money in this

So that climate anxiety is just

prevalent in so many different elements

of the story.

>> And as someone who writes about climate

change a lot, there are aspects of

climate change that make me anxious.

There are aspects of trying to tackle

climate change that make me very

excited. But on the anxiety side, why is

it useful to write about the anxiety?

Well, I think for one, it's cathartic

just to acknowledge that anxiety and to

bring it out into the open. I think that

for a lot of people, it's something that

just adds an anxious hum to our days and

but maybe we try to look away from it

because it feels like there's not a ton

you can do about it. So, one is just

bringing it out and for myself

processing that anxiety that I do feel

on a daily basis. We've had quite a

summer here in the United States um as

people are having all over the world,

but a lot of wildfires burning in the

United States and Canada. We've had a

real expansion in where ticks are living

because of climate change. Just a lot of

changes that people are living with

extreme heat and all of that. So, one

reason to write a book that has climate

anxiety in it is to just create a way to

begin a conversation about that. And

then also I in the process of writing

the book and beginning with that climate

anxiety I read a lot about it and I feel

like the more you read as you say the

more anxiety but also the more solutions

you begin to see. So the research

process itself was extremely meaningful

to me in rather than just having this be

an ambient anxiety actually coming to

understand more what the situation is

and educating myself about it. There is

a tendency that people have and this has

been the case for a long time now um of

turning off on bad environmental stories

because most people don't feel like

there's agency. They can't do anything

about it. But when it comes to AI, I

don't sense the same thing from the

readers. uh even though you know there

are plenty of AI dystopian stories to go

around and the harms it's doing to the

climate and the environment and the

harms it's doing to people's way of

thinking to maybe social connections

etc. There is still appetite for people

to want to engage with that story which

they don't seem to have

with climate. Why is that? I don't know

why that is. And I

I think it does have something to do

with just the vastness of climate change

and the complexity of the both the

natural systems and the political

systems that would enable change to

happen. Um, I think that it can feel so

overwhelming to think that humans

activities are changing our beloved

planet in such profound and really it

feels like often uncontrollable ways. So

I think it is a big question for anyone

thinking about climate and any

journalists and any scientists. How do

you talk about climate without filling

people with such despair that there's a

feeling of nihilism that comes with

that? In terms of AI and people's

willingness, I think you're saying to

engage with AI narratives and maybe even

feel scared of AI in a more active way.

I wonder if that's because AI just feels

extremely present in our everyday lives.

I think climate for me climate change

does too. But you do a search and

suddenly GPT is speaking to you. It's

just it's really becoming um so

everpresent. I think both AI and climate

are everpresent but maybe the AI is even

a little bit more in our faces at the

moment.

>> Yeah, that's very interesting. It's sort

of um climate change is all pervasive

but still a little bit far away whereas

AI is all pervasive and a little bit too

close. Um and that makes people think a

lot more. Um, you talk about the duality

of technology a lot in the story. So,

you have this moment where May wants her

children and her husband to not be tied

to their devices and so she takes those

away and then in the process there are

problems that come through. They're not

able to do basic things and so there are

advantages that technologies bring but

also disadvantages that technologies

bring. That duality

makes the story interesting. Whereas

climate change feels like a thing that

just is bad. There is there is really no

duality to it. How do you make a story

be interesting if there isn't a duality?

So where how do you break the climate

story interesting?

>> Well, I first want to speak on your

first point about the duality of tech in

the book, which was extremely important

to me when I was writing. I do not

consider hum an anti-tech book because

of the very thing you said when she

tries to separate her family from their

technology. Problems ensue from that. We

are so inshed with these both miraculous

and dangerous technologies all around us

that we can't throw the baby out with

the bathwater. Um and I actually gave

the book an epigraph on this very

subject. So I want to share it with you

and your listeners. The quote is from

Pariselus who was a physician and

alchemist. So this person was not

writing about technology but I think

this quote is very relevant to our

technologies and actually to climate

change too. So the quote is poison is in

everything and no thing is without

poison. The dosage makes it either a

poison or a remedy.

And this idea that anything can be a

poison and anything can be a remedy.

It's all about how we use it. So it's

not we can't stop using our earth. we

have to in order to survive. But how can

we use it in a way that is healthy and

harmonious? And the same with our tech.

We can't stop using technology, but how

can we use it in a way that makes it a

remedy rather than a poison? I think

about this all the time. And this

duality

is very important to me in hum and in my

own life. How do we find some kind of

balance with our environment and our

technology? If you read the most recent

IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on

Climate Change report, if you read about

what happens if we actually tackle

climate change and reach net zero by

2050 or even

a whole series of good things happen

beyond just helping us protect and

preserve some of the climate that we can

over these next few decades. the air

just becomes a lot cleaner than it ever

was even when we weren't worried about

climate change. You know, people become

much more resilient and being able to

live to their full potential because

they are now living in environments that

are, you know, for example, air

conditioning will become much more

accessible to poor people as a result of

us pushing more efficient electric

technologies. Solar power becomes, you

know, essentially the base power source

for humanity, which it should be

eventually, but just becomes so much

more quickly because we are pushing for

clean renewable energy and thus reaches

people who don't currently have access

to energy. So there is a duality of

climate being a good driving force for

solutions, but that didn't come through

in the book. To me, there were no

climate solutions that I could spot in

the book. Uh whereas I could spot like

the dystopian nature of of tech, but

also like the advantages that technology

brings. Like at one point the robot uh

when it's paid for for its adree version

is just so much nicer to talk to and so

much more empathetic and so wise that

you could actually sit down and have

dinner with it, but doesn't quite track

for like the solution side of climate.

Was that a deliberate choice? Like, did

you not want to talk about the fact that

we are doing something to try and tackle

climate change?

>> In a way, I think what you're getting at

with this point about climate change not

having the duality that I've put in the

book in terms of the artificial

intelligence and technology gets at the

point that for me, the climate change

elements of the book are not the plot of

the book, but the setting for the book.

I think it is hard to make climate

change into a plot, although it is quite

dramatic. And now you've given me an

interesting thought. What would it be

like to write a novel where climate

change was literally the central

conflict and how could I find the

duality sufficient to drive a narrative

forward? So maybe you've now given me my

idea for my next book. So thank you for

that. But but in hum specifically,

it is the setting for the book. It is

the context. It is it motivates this

woman to seek this place for her

children. but she is an individual who's

actually having a very difficult time.

She's not very stable in her life and

she's not in the position to do anything

about climate change except hear on the

news, oh, there's another terrible

hurricane or there are fires or her we

are learn on the first page of the book

that her family's home burned in a fire

in a wildfire and they didn't have money

just very scant insurance payments to

buy a new home that wasn't in the forest

where they had lived before. So, climate

change is affecting her in all sorts of

ways, but maybe like we were talking

about before, she is just one strained,

stressed mother with a lot of financial

problems, and she's not able to deeply

engage with the climate crisis, except

to say, "Let me get my kids so that they

can have three nights in a forest just

to see what that's like."

I do think that in the end, and I'll try

to avoid spoilers here, The Hum has a

moment where it proposes

perspective futures. And some of those

futures are a little bit solar punk in

nature and offer glimpses just like

tantalizing glimpses of the world that

you're describing where solar panels are

more common and it seems like people

have figured out a way to live in

greater harmony. But it's really just

the most tiny tantalizing glimpse. And

it is by way of the technology, perhaps

ironically, that those images enter the

book.

>> After the break, summer is here and so

is the reading season. I ask Helen

Phillips for a few of her favorite book

recommendations. If you're enjoying this

episode of Zero, please take a moment to

rate and review the show on whichever

platform you're listening on. Recently,

listener Chevy Bolt wrote, "Every show

seems informative without being

argumentative. That's a gift. Thanks,

Chevy. I hope you're enjoying listening

to this in your car.

The AI aspect of it also brings with it

sort of helplessness uh in May's life.

um you know her job is taken away and

then suddenly in the process of

resolving the issues she faces she has

to give up so much of her life's data

essentially to AI so that it can process

it there is a helplessness to the system

being all perervasive and all

controlling you know one aspect that you

don't clearly define but it's there the

private enterprises use hum and the

government uses hum and they intershare

the data without actually there any

barriers between a private or a public

enterprise. And that's sort of like very

unsettling a future. But one aspect of

this which I wanted to understand is

there is no political disscent in this

world. It doesn't feel like you know you

never talk about like a trillionaire

that's like all controlling of this AI

or a president who's controlling of the

system. Was that a choice to not have

like a point of focus for the other

problems that AI brings? I did think

about that. What is the political

situation in this world? And it is

completely offscreen. The one thing we

do learn early on in the book is that

the AI, the the hums, the embodied

robots were created by a private

corporation

that has figured out how to embody the

brain of the network in these really

graceful and beautiful and sculptural

robot bodies. So, it is, as you just

pointed out, and I think this is very

important. It is a private company, but

it's working so closely with the

government that it's almost like there's

no division or separation between the

two. This is um like many things in the

book drawn from our own reality where

that is happening so much all the time.

I think too something that I experience

just as a human and as a consumer is

these new technologies are just released

upon us so quickly and surprisingly and

suddenly they're there and you're just

living with them and you've never had

any time to think about it or prepare

yourself for this fact that suddenly

when you do a Google search it's giving

you this intricate AI answer you never

signed up for it. So just this feeling

that whether it's a government or a

corporation, suddenly you are in a new

reality with a new technology and you

never even agreed to do it and it's just

there in your life.

>> Talk me through things that you changed

your mind on because as a

writer we almost use writing as a way to

process what's happening to us in the

world. You've specifically talked about

how you use writing to deal with

anxiety. But having done a long project,

did you change your mind on any of the

aspects of either AI or capitalism or

climate?

>> I think that one of the most interesting

examples of that for this particular

book was I early in the writing process

I went to a talk given by the writer and

professor Arthur I Miller at Brooklyn

College where I teach and he had just

published his book the artist in the

machine. um with MIT which is a

fascinating book about the positive

potential of human and AI

collaborations. I believe it was

published in 2019 which now feels so

long ago in terms of where we are with

AI now. But his book and his talk and

then our subsequent email exchange

really enabled me to move away from the

knee-jerk reaction I have and I think a

lot of people have and you can see it in

popular culture. the robots are here to

destroy us all and a little bit more

towards what are the possibilities for

collaboration that could be very

meaningful. I still don't know about

that, but it definitely enabled me to

build the character of The Hum with a

lot more nuance and compassion. And I

one thing that I've experienced is

people who read the book have a lot of

different reactions to the hum. And

their reactions change over the course

of the book. And that's very valuable to

me. That sometimes you're scared of the

hum and find it sinister like this spy.

And sometimes the hum is extremely cute

and charming and delightful and then as

you say once you turn off the

advertising feature becomes very wise

and insightful. And this is how I feel

about technologies. The all of those

different reactions, all of those

different feelings are feelings that I

have towards technology. Sort of

somewhere between this is terrifying and

this is miraculous. And I really wanted

the character of the hum to embody that.

and Miller's book helped me arrive

there. I mean this is not core to our

conversation but the aspects of how

advertising shows up in the book and the

all pervasive

seamless annoying but

weirdly interesting moments in which

advertising shows up is just fascinating

and I think it is the closest I've seen

anybody capture the kind of lives we

live today with how much advertising we

are we are uh facing as as we just go

around doing normal things in life most

of them on the internet. Yes, that was a

very important and very early aspect of

the book. And for me, actually, a lot of

humor derives from it. Kind of a dark

humor because May will be having what

feels like a very intimate conversation

with the hum. And then the hum will

start trying to sell her things. So, you

realize, oh, the whole time we were

talking, communicating, you were just

trying to figure out what you wanted to

sell me. So, there's humor in that. But

also, I find that to be one of the least

science fictional aspects of the book

and most realistic. It's the same. We're

constantly getting fed targeted

advertisements. And May, throughout the

first half of the book, the hum keeps on

saying to her, "Women of a certain age

show their age in their hands. Can I

sell you this lotion that will be

specifically targeted to your and so in

all of these serious moments, this silly

ad comes into the conversation." Um, and

that's just a way of presenting and

making really concrete, how everpresent

advertising is and how the technologies

that surround us often have as a very

central goal that that targeted

advertising. Um, as we've mentioned a

couple of times, at the end of the book,

May pays quite an exorbitant sum to turn

off the hums advertising, as we are

often asked to do, to pay to turn off

advertising in our streaming services.

And at that juncture, when the hum no

longer has the advertising agenda,

May and the hum become capable of having

a much deeper level of conversation. And

in that there's maybe a little bit of a

utopian idea of what it is like to or

what it could be like to interact with

AI that has no agenda except truly

consolidating all of the best knowledge

and wisdom and empathy of humanity and

advising someone with all of that in

play with no advertising agenda.

>> I want to talk about AI and writing. You

said you know we still don't know

whether there are ways in which AI can

be used for good but already people are

using it for all sorts of things. So, in

February, there was a New York Times

profile of an author by the pseudonym

Coral Hart, who has used 21 pen names to

publish more than 200 romance novels,

selling around 50,000 copies and earning

six figures. Um, not mainstream. It's

not like it's going on the New York

Times bestseller anytime soon, but it's

not unsuccessful either. like is this

the kind of AI can be used for art that

you imagined would be a useful thing to

have?

>> That's not really what I'm picturing. I

I suppose I would say the way I feel

about that personally with my own

practice is writing is the thing I do.

It It's my favorite thing to do with my

brain. How incredible to have a human

brain and then how incredible to be able

to use it to do this task that is for me

the most challenging task I can set my

mind to and therefore the most

interesting task and the most flow state

I can get into. I can't imagine

outsourcing that particular thing to a

machine. It's why would I give away all

of that fun and all of that delight and

challenge? And certainly as a professor

of creative writing, this is something

and I was even thinking the other day

preparing for the upcoming semester. We

really need to talk deeply about this on

the first day of class that as our world

becomes more and more automated, our own

unique idiosyncratic trains of thought

and the words that we choose to put down

become ever more precious and ever

greater evidence of our humanity. So, I

am not interested in using AI in my own

writing practice and I encourage beg my

students not to use it either because I

want their voices.

>> But when they do, how do you feel? I

feel like they are robbing themselves of

the opportunity

to learn how to think because writing

for me, especially when they are young

writers educating themselves, it's not

the final product. It's the thinking

that goes into it and the preciousness

of of putting your brain in a

challenging situation. So I just worry

I've read some things about cognitive

decline that people have when they

overuse AI. Now I do talk to my students

and of course we have to be practical

here. It is an amazing tool and I'll say

to them on the first day of class I'll

give them different examples. Okay. Is

it appropriate to use AI to write a

creative piece in this class? Okay. No.

Is it appropriate to use AI to write a

letter to the DMV challenging a parking

ticket? Maybe that's fine. Probably

that's fine. How one thing that they're

always divided on is writing a wedding

toast for your best friend. That's

usually about half and half. So, so

there are uses. Um, but I think that for

the highest kind of thinking and

creativity,

it is a long-term disadvantage to your

own brain to to rely on AI.

>> I I am a little surprised about the half

an hour on the wedding toast. I mean,

well, really depends on how much you

love your friend.

Maybe it's 25 would use it and 75

wouldn't, but that one is a little

divided sometimes.

>> But writing is and admittedly a very

lonely exercise. And in my most

frustrating parts of writing, that is

the thing that stands out. And you know,

you could use AI as an editor. Um, would

that be a good use? Sort of give me

feedback on this new piece of writing

that I've done. And then I could I don't

have somebody else who will have time to

read it

>> potentially. I haven't used it that way,

but I do know

I have spoken to former students who

have done that after they leave the

academic context, they don't have

someone to read their work. And I feel

like as with any feedback you ever get,

even if it is in a creative writing

class with humans, you're always going

to take it with a grain of salt. So if

you receive editing advice and 50% of it

is helpful and useful and 50% of it is

useless, that's fine. So I again, as I

said, you know, I'm not anti-tech. It's

just how do we use it so that it's a

remedy and not a poison.

>> How do you balance tech in your own

life? As a writer, you know, focus is

something that really is necessary, but

tech is also useful and distracting.

Yes, I think that this question in my

life as a writer when I am actually in

the active process of writing, I put on

a timer and I go into literal focus mode

in word and I don't look at the

internet. Occasionally, if there's an

extremely specific question I have, like

about the color of a certain animal, I

might quickly look that up. But I I am

really in the habit as long as the

timer's on, the internet is pretty much

off. But I feel like this question is

more relevant actually to being a parent

and figuring out how to dose the

technologies that my children are

exposed to. And it was quite interesting

um and fairly ironic that right as I was

finishing up HUM, my 10-year-old

daughter said that she wanted to start

to walk to school by herself. That she

felt ready to do that. And I love that

independence. But we live a mile from

her school and it's in I live in New

York City in Brooklyn and so I wasn't

sure about letting her go. But then we

had the idea if she had a little watch

where I could track her and call her

then it would be fine for her to walk to

school. And we haven't spoken about this

but in the one of the quasi villains of

the book is these little bunnies which

are these watches that the children wear

and which May takes off of them to go to

the botanical gardens. So

the a lot of the tension in the book

springs from the fact that the mother is

constantly tracking the children. But

then in my own reality of my life, it

made a lot of sense and was incredibly

relieving and beautiful for me and my

daughter that she could walk to school

and I could feel comfortable with it. So

it's all complicated. Um but I I think

this balance of technology, I'm thinking

about it all the time. Where is it a

tool and where is it a detriment? And

then as a writing uh professor, what

what is your advice to budding writers

who want to write about climate change

either incorporating it directly into

their stories or indirectly?

>> I don't actually though I personally as

a writer have a very significant climate

change

um

interest. I don't talk to my students

about that very much. But I do expose

them to my favorite works about climate

change where I feel like a work of

fiction has been

as subtle and interesting and and

meaningful as literature should be. So

one of those stories that I love to

teach is the story Exhalation by the

writer Ted Chiang. It is a completely

different society from anything we've

ever encountered. It's these robots who

live in these bodies and they have to

breathe in this very particular way and

it's a beautifully executed story and by

the end you realize this robot society

is in threat and so it becomes a

metaphor for climate change but it

really sneaks up on you and that to me

is very powerful and more goes deeper

gets deeper into you than a more

in-your-face like we need to save the

climate right now. I feel like

literature needs to be its wonderful,

strange,

nonlinear, sort of ciruitous self in

order to really have in order to really

present climate change because if it

just sounds like a writer is on a soap

box yelling at you, you're going to shut

down. First, you need to have a literary

experience and an emotional experience

and then you can arrive at some deeper

understanding of climate change. Another

book that I um put in the same category

is Samantha Schweblin's book Fever

Dream. It's an extraordinary probably my

all-time favorite book, but it

ultimately is about um pollution, but it

really takes a while to arrive there and

you arrive there in a very interesting

way. So, those are two that I love to

present to my students. You are the

second winner of the climate fiction

prize which in a way is also telling

because it was only about 10 years ago

that Amitav goes one of the sort of

climate writers um who came out with a

book uh the great derangement saying how

literature has failed at the task of

telling people about the deep crisis

that we are in whether it's direct or

indirect and the fact that there's a

climate fiction prize that there are

these finalists you five others who are

good books to read is is a confirmation

of finally literature correcting itself

to try and bring the climate story in

different ways. But you are a novelist.

You've written multiple novels. What is

it that the novel offers that other

mediums like TV or film don't? I think

for me what the novel offers that's

unique is

just a an incredible intimacy with a

character's mind and train of thought

and lived experience

which in film you're watching them from

outside which can be wonderful and I

love I love movies I love TV but the

novel you're just it's in your brain and

you're in the character's brain and

there's there's just it's a unique level

of intimacy. And so if May is feeling

anxious about taking her children

outside because of the air quality and

her daughter is upset about it, you're

really feeling my my intention, my hope,

my dream is that you are feeling that

feeling with her as though it is your

own feeling. It becomes your own

feeling. So that's for novels and short

stories too. I feel that that intimacy

is the greatest strength.

>> And it is the end of July when we

recording. A lot of people listening um

at least in the northern hemisphere are

going to go on summer holidays. Are

there book recommendations that you

would have for people?

>> I love this question. So, one book I

just read that was released recently

that is about the future of life on

Earth is Earth 7 by Deb Olen Unfurtth.

And another book I read this summer that

I had never encountered before, although

it was published in Taiwan in 1996, but

is a very interesting climate book and

technology book is The Membranes by Chi

Taiwe. Um, interestingly, both of the

books I've just recommended involve

humans living on the floor of the ocean.

So, if that is a particular interest, I

recommend those, but they're both very

interesting. And then, of course, I will

add the the works I've mentioned, Fever

Dream by Samantha Schweblin, Exhalation

by Ted Chiang, and The Uninhabitable

Earth by David Wallace Wells. So, you'll

be all set for your climate anxiety

reading, but they're they're all joyful

books in their own way, too. Thank you,

Helen,

>> of course.

>> And thank you for listening to Zero. Now

for the sound of the week.

That is the sound of a printing press

cutting the pages of a freshly printed

novel. If you like this episode, please

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show on Apple Podcast, YouTube, and

Spotify. This episode was produced by

Oscar Boyd. Our theme music is composed

by Wonderly. Special thanks to Summer

Sadi, Laura Milan, Summer Maxwell, and

Alyssa Macdonald. I Axhatraati back

soon.