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from New York Times opinion this is the

Ezra Klein

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show so it is Monday July 29th when I'm

recording this and we are deep in the

pivotal week of Vice president Harris's

vep Stakes it is reported that she will

make her decision by August 7th and as

somebody who wanted to see uh a sort of

mini primary for Democrats who made the

argument that at the very least there

should be a sort of contest of the vice

presidential candidates and town halls

and forums in an organized way what has

emerged in a disorganized way is much

more like what I had hoped to see than

than i' had ever expected I mean we've

been watching Pete Budaj and Governor

Tim Waltz of Minnesota and Jos of

Pennsylvania and Roy Cooper of North

Carolina and Andy Basher of Kentucky

just sort of Fanning out across speeches

across uh MSNBC and CNN on social media

demoing how they would try to take JD

Vance apart in a debate one person we

have not heard as much from is Michigan

Governor Gretchen Whitmer Whitmer said

she is not interested in the vice

presidency at the same time um there was

reporting that she was being vetted she

denied that reporting but Whitmer is an

interesting figure for Democrats she was

considered by Joe Biden for vice

president in 2020 she has won the

governorship of Michigan twice by

significant margins each time and she

made her name nationally when she was

the state senate minority leader

fighting against a a very anti-abortion

bill I have a lot more prepared remarks

here but I think it's important for me

to just mention a couple things when she

gave a speech on the floor of the Senate

revealing which is something even her

own father had not known that she'd been

raped in college and so I'm about to

tell you something that I've not shared

with many people in my

life but over 20 years ago I was a

victim of

rape and thank God it didn't result in a

pregnancy because I can't imagine going

through what I went through and

then having to consider what to do about

an unwanted

pregnancy from an

attacker and and as a mother with two

girls the thought that they would ever

go through something like I did keeps me

up at

night I thought this was all behind me

you know how tough I can

be the thought and the memory of that

still haunts

me if this were law then and I had

become pregnant I would not be able to

have

coverage because of this how

extreme how extreme does this measure

need to be after that speech Whitmer

became a national voice on abortion not

just a Michigan voice on it she became

somebody you would see on cable news

somebody the the party turned to to

think about how to talk about this issue

she won the governorship in Michigan on

a fixed Dam roads platform in 2018 and

then in 2022 the Dos decision came down

she for re-election putting abortion at

the center of her campaign so there's a

lot I think to learn from whitmer's

campaigns here both in terms of how to

run and win in Michigan which is

something Democrats very much need to do

this year but also in terms of how to

make elections about the thing you want

them to be about she's also the author

of a new book true Gretch which is now a

New York Times bestseller as always my

email as reclin show atny times.com

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Governor Gretchen Whitmer welcome to the

show thank you I'm glad to be with you

so in 2018 you ran on one of my very

favorite campaign slogans which is fix

the damn roads in the book you tell a

story about how that slogan came about

how did it come about so when I decided

to jump in and run for governor of

Michigan I know Michigan is a huge State

and I wanted to get into all 83 counties

I know that I'm always learning when I'm

showing up and asking people what I

could do that might make their life

better or what's going on in their world

and it was over and over again in

response to that question whether I was

in the most rural part of the state or

downtown Detroit or Grand Rapids people

would often reply fix the damn roads and

ultimately I started talking about it

the same way I think for people it was a

daily reminder of an area in their life

where government's not getting the job

done and that's why it was top of mine

but it was really a conversation that I

had with a woman in the Detroit

Children's Hospital that crystallized

everything for me this is a mom her son

is there he's in a brace and she's

obviously you know focused on her child

I asked her what could I do that would

make your life better if I get elected

governor and she looked me in the eye

and said fix the damn Rose and I was not

expecting that response especially in

that situation I figured she'd want to

talk about health care or child care or

education something about what she was

there for that day and so I I wanted to

follow up I I said tell me more why is

this the first thing on your mind as as

you think about what you need done and

she explained to me she's from Flint

Michigan north of Detroit and she was

driving to Detroit to go visit her son

and hit a pothole that absolutely

destroyed the rim on her wheel it

sideline cled her for a whole day she

had to go get her car fixed she had to

spent hundreds of dollars she wasn't

planning to spend she never got to see

her her son in the hospital that day had

to pay for child care for the other two

kids who were at home and it was just

such a a massive hit to her and her

family money out of rent or child care

and that's why she said fix the damn

roads and so that conversation with

Bridget bonds is something that I

include in the book because yes it was a

great tagline for a campaign but it was

really focused on people and it

resonated with people and it was through

that act and that sometimes Lost Art of

listening to other people that led me to

that that phrase fix the damn routs I

want to know why you think it resonated

with people so I've covered a lot of

campaigns and campaign slogans are

generally a very wide blank canvas on

which people can imagine the their own

version of The Campaign uh hope and

change make America great again I've

heard make America America again uh

putting people first right these most

campaign slogans have a a tendency to

try to say everything and and nothing at

the same time this was very very narrow

very specific why did it work I think it

worked because it came from the people

you know I've been asked what is the

next campaign slogan going to be and I

would say I don't know I'm going to ask

people what do they need when you do

that I think it helps give you

confidence that you're focusing on the

right things it also resonates with

people the thing that you learn when

you're talking to people and you're

listening to them fix the damn roads

resonated because everyone no matter

what status you are in Life or what part

of the state you live in after Decades

of disinvestment everyone was feeling

the pain of that and so this was

something that kind of took the politics

out of the political conversation and

said let's just be practical let's do

the things that are going to make your

life better or easier or your business

Thrive fixing roads you win that

election you come into office with a

republican legislature they don't want

to fix the damn roads or at least they

don't want to pay for fixing the damn

roads you proposed a gas tax to fund

road construction that the tax was

rejected didn't even make it into uh a

vote so what did you

do well first goal is always to find

common ground and work with people

but if they're not going to be partners

then I'm going to work around them and

so uh we did a bond I was able to get a

lot of long overdue resources into our

infrastructure and to be honest a lot of

the Biden Harris work and around

infrastructure I know every president

talks about infrastructure week but this

presidency actually sent resources to

state to do more on fixing the dam roads

as well as dams and bridges and internet

they're we're doing a lot on the

infrastructure front and if someone

wants to be a partner I'll always make a

seat at the table for you but if you're

not going to work with me well I'll roll

up my sleeves and work around

you you have a line in your book where

you write quote if there's any one motto

I live by in my political career it's

get [ __ ] done how did that become the

motto one of the things that we know is

that a chief executive doesn't just take

positions on issues like folks and

legislative bodies we've got to deliver

I have had to sit at the table with

Republican leaders in my first term who

shared stages with the men that were

plotting to kidnap and to kill me I

can't hold a grudge I can't throw a

punch I'm capable of it throwing a punch

but I can't do it as the chief executive

because at the end of the day I got to

get [ __ ] done I got to get a budget done

I've got to be able to negotiate with a

legislature on what that budget's

priorities are and so I think it's a an

executive mentality that we can't slow

down we've got to move fast we've got to

be nimble sometimes we're going to get

it right other times we're going to have

to adjust course but at the end of the

day my job is to get [ __ ] done for the

people of Michigan and that's what we do

I was looking in to try to understand

whether or not the roads got fixed and I

saw lot of lot of coverage of it but I

found this one Reddit thread of people

in Michigan saying well did did Governor

Whitmer fix it mroads everybody saying

yeah it's unbelievably annoying there's

there's construction everywhere now

everything's getting fixed I can't I

can't drive anywhere so that that made

me think you actually did get get

something significant done there the

next election you don't run on roads you

run on row and you don't just run on it

rhetorically you're you're challenging a

1931 anti-abortion law on Michigan's

books in court you have a ballot measure

protecting or codifying access to to

reproductive Freedom tell me about how

that campaign for re-election as

Governor which happens after dos

differed from the 2018 race and and how

you thought about it

differently well you know Ezra I have

been in office in Michigan for the

better part of the last 25 years and I

have been on the front line making the

case on behalf of women's reproductive

Freedom when we saw the Ruth Bader

ginsburg's passing I knew that there was

a very real possibility that Donald

Trump would make another appointment to

the court and despite what his

appointees said to Congress that they

thought roow was settled law I didn't

believe him so I got to work with my

legal team we filed a lawsuit in

Michigan to ask our court to determine

under the State Constitution that women

have that right to privacy that the

right to choose comes from and um filed

that lawsuit and I took took a lot of

grief for it you a lot of people said

well you're overreacting or it's

premature you don't have standing yet

there's no case that's been decided and

yet we forged ahead and I was really

glad for it because when the do's

decision came down it was because of my

lawsuit that women in Michigan had

access to abortion care throughout the

pending days and and weeks that took us

to collect signatures and put the matter

before the voters so I do talk a lot

about abortion in my book because I gave

a speech in 2013 and shared that I was a

survivor of of rape when I was in

college 10 years to that day I was able

to repeal the law that I couldn't beat

down at that moment but I do use this to

remind people never give up these fights

are worth having we are on the right

side of these issues and if you feel

that strongly about a right that's

threatened or being taken away we got to

fight for it even if it takes longer

than it should and so as we went into

the reelect in 2022 a lot of folks were

making the assumption that after the

pandemic and all the Heat and ugliness

that came my way and with a democrat in

the White House I'd never get reelected

but I was out there talking about our

reproductive Freedom doing roundtables

with women and our allies across the

state to give people the ability to

weigh in and tell me what's going on and

why this right matters so much and not

only did I get reelected by almost 11

points in a state like Michigan which is

pretty remarkable we got the

Constitution amended so that we did

protect our rights but all this still

remains in Jeopardy and that's why I'm

such an

enthusiastic supporter and co-chair of

the Harris campaign I know she can and

has and will continue to fight for a

woman's reproductive

Freedom that was a very big election I

mean as you mentioned you won by almost

11 that the ballot measure protecting

abortion rights that one by 13 it ran

even ahead of you Democrats took control

of the Michigan legislature for the

first time in in 40 years so what have

you learned running on Reproductive

Rights in a swing state about which

arguments work and which arguments don't

work

on this issue well it I appreciate that

question I'll share this I think one of

the things that has become very clear to

me is we have done ourselves a huge

disservice by calling an abortion

procedure By Any Other Name so let me

explain what I mean by that when a woman

goes through IVF and they implant

multiple embryos to increase the

likelihood that one of them will implant

and and ultimately end in a a birth of a

a baby when you have multiple that that

do I think look as though they're going

to make it sometimes they will do what

they call Selective reduction that's an

abortion that is aborting an embryo that

has been implanted to increase the

likelihood that another one will survive

and result in the birth of a baby

another example is when a woman has a

miscarriage at home but it doesn't

complete and she needs to go to the

hospital to have that completed some

people call that a DNC it's an abortion

and so I think it's really important to

use the language that is all the same

type of Health Care and as we get around

the state in 2022 and preparations for

the election these round taes shed so

much light on what was going on with

people and I think humanized the issue

for many voters when you sit across the

table and a woman shows up and she's in

a wheelchair and explains and educates

everyone around the table as well as the

media in the room that people with

disabilities are more vulnerable to

sexual assault she shared as well that

if she was assaulted and it resulted in

a pregnancy she would die if she had was

forced to carry that pregnancy and so it

was an eyeopener for everyone at the

table and I think it's those stories

that humanize this moment for people I

sat across the table from a different

woman who had seven pregnancies she

shared with everyone there and you could

tell it was very hard for her to talk

about she had a live birth and then a

miscarriage then a miscarriage and then

a live birth and so like between every

pregnancy she had a miscarriage so three

of those pregnancies ended in

miscarriage three of them um she had

three daughters and then she got

pregnant a seventh time even though they

were using birth control she and her

husband chose to have an abortion

because they have a child who's on the

autism spectrum and they don't have the

resources and bandwidth to bring another

person in the family without

compromising everyone's ability and so I

think that those stories matter when

people can understand this is the most

personal question any one of us will

ever confront it's carries the biggest

economic impact when and whether to

bring a child into the world and it can

only be made by that woman and so that I

think is the most powerful way to

message on this that it is individual

liberty and health and it should be

vested in that individual and government

needs to get the heck out of it and then

the other piece of that is to remind

people the most consequential economic

decision any of us will make In Our

Lifetime is whether and when to have a

child and the only one who can know the

answer to that is the

individual how do you approach

disagreement here one of the threads

running through your book is how hard

you try to find the the the good or the

point of commonality even in people who

disagree with you fight you insult you

plot against you at times obviously

people who have deep pro-life beliefs

those beliefs are are held

sincerely how do you talk with them

about it well that's why I rais that

example of someone with IVF I do think

that there is is some room for common

ground even on this issue I hear

Republicans say they don't want to take

away a person's ability to access IVF

but then I watch how they vote or I read

what they write in their project

2025 and so I do think that the average

person agrees that this is a highly

personal decision and so even if their

political party is listed as Republican

on their their voter idea or whatever

else they they might identify that way

I'm going to try to engage because once

you see the humanity involved I think

that changes everything and I would

share this too Ezra in those round taes

across Michigan I sat across from people

that we invited we didn't screen them

and make sure they were all in the same

place we were but we wanted real voices

at the table and I had a number of

Republicans sitting across from me who

said I am not a Democrat I did not vote

for you in

2018 but I'm here and I'm going to help

you because you're the only one fighting

for this most important freedom to me

and my daughters and so that's why I'm

here and I think that that shows even on

this issue we can draw people into the

conversation and maybe find Common

Ground I want to play you a clip of of

JD Vance talking about this issue on a

podcast a couple of years ago okay look

here here's a situation let's say R

versus weight is overruled Ohio Ohio

band's

abortion um you know in

2022 20 let's say

2024 and then you know every day George

Soros sends a 747 to Columbus to load up

disproportionately black women to get

them to go have abortions in California

of course the left will celebrate this

as a victory for diversity uh that's

kind of Health just Health Justice is

when we

exterminate black people something yeah

something like that could I mean that

would be a really weird turn of events

that could happen yes and it's like if

that happens do you need some federal

response to prevent it from happening

because it's really creepy and you know

I I'm I'm pretty sympathetic to that

actually if he was your opponent in a

campaign in Michigan how would you

respond to that well it's really

stunning how he combined misogyny

anti-Semitism and racism all in one

response I mean that is some of the

worst of what we're seeing in terms of

political rhetoric that is used to

inflame or mislead or divert your

attention from what's really at stake

here he has many different personas

apparently the only word he used that I

agree with is creepy because I think

that the strange metamorphosis of JD

Vance is something that I can't get my

head around at the end of the day every

one of us should have the right to

access the healthc care that we need

every one of us should have the right to

make choices about our bodies and our

future and the government should get the

heck out of it

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Donald Trump's position is that he just

wanted to return this to the the states

and I want to play you a clip from him

as well because he's certainly trying to

move at least the party's positioning on

this my view is now that we have

abortion where everybody wanted it from

a legal standpoint the states will

determine by Vote or legislation or

perhaps both and whatever they decide

must be the law of the land in this case

the law of the state many States will be

different many will have a different

number of weeks or some will have more

conservative than others and that's what

they will be at the end of the day this

is all about the will of the people

what's your response to that the will of

the people was that each of us has the

ability to Access healthcare and make

our own decisions you look at JD Vance's

own state of Ohio the voters said

overwhelmingly stop messing with these

rights we saw that in can and Kentucky

in Michigan Etc the people of this

country I think have been sold the bill

of goods and we know that the former

president has had I don't know 18

different positions on abortion he's

going to say whatever he thinks is going

to help him get elected in the moment

what we really deserve is someone who's

going to talk straight to us deliver for

us and fight for our freedoms and and

that's why I think this matchup between

Trump and Vance versus Harris and

whomever she chooses is going to be

Stark and it's going to be a reminder to

all of us even in states where we've

secured this right we can't for one

second assume this fight is over let me

focus on that question of delivering one

problem Democrats have running on on row

on dos is that the Senate filibuster

makes it impossible for them to credibly

promise to pass a federal law restoring

row when you ran in your re-election

campaign you had a ballot measure that

was going to enshrine this in the

Constitution

they can't really promise that they're

not going to get 60 votes in the Senate

they they don't have the votes to to get

rid of the filibuster at least I don't

think they do so in terms of making this

concrete in terms of actually promising

something you can deliver which it seems

to me is a Hallmark of how you run

what's your pitch for what democrats

should promise to do if they win what

would be credible and real well I know

that President Biden is talking about

some Supreme Court reform I think that's

interesting I'm not he's not fleshed

everything out at least I've not seen it

yet so I I can't talk a whole lot more

on the substance of but but that would

have the filibuster problem too it would

and you know I am not a a Washington

Insider I'm I've always been based in

Michigan it's home and it's what I love

but I do think that you know at this

point we're fighting on the ground and

state by state it's a terrible situation

because you've got a third of the

population is under some really

extremely restrictive punitive and cruel

policies that make women second class

citizens and we're fighting state by

state right now but ultimately we do not

want a National Abortion ban which is

what I know Donald Trump has suggested

as something he'd sign more than once so

I do think that this election matters

can we undo everything in one fell soup

probably not because of what you've what

you've pointed out with regard to

filibuster but we at the very least need

good people who are going to stop the

continued erosion of these rights right

now there's this way in which a 2018

fixed Dam roads campaign can feel very

pragmatic and non ideological a

republican could want to fix the damn

roads too and the 2022 campaign on fix a

dam row feels much sharper edged and and

more ideological but but both campaigns

are focused on something you could

actually do and in 2022 you had the the

ballot measure as well showing that

there was there something really people

could do and this feels important to me

how do you think about making the stakes

of of campaigns of government tangible

and realistic to people when so many

people are so cynical about whether

anything actually changes depending on

who who gets

elected yeah I think it's I think it's

challenging right because we do have so

many candidates who will promise the

moon and stars when they don't have any

ability to deliver it and I don't have a

lot of patience for that to be honest in

my first election for governor I had uh

some opponents who were talking about

how they were going to deliver Universal

healthc care in Michigan and I think

it's a value we all have but I know

enough about state government to know

what I can and can't do I also know

enough about politics in Michigan and

how the lines are drawn for our

legislature especially when we are in

2018 about what was doable and not

doable and I'm not going to promise

people to do something that I know I can

accomplish I'd rather be the person who

sets optimistic expectations but

realistic as well and I I do worry about

people losing faith in government

because so many people exaggerate what

they can accomplish I do worry about

people checking out because over and

over again these people who make these

fake promises don't deliver and then

they think we're all that same way and

that government can never get anything

done so I think it's a not just

smart to manage expectations and overd

deliver I think it's responsible too

because we can't let more people be

frustrated with government and check out

we need people to check in more than

ever with vice president Harris becoming

the the top of the ticket we're hearing

a lot of people's theories fears

excitement about what it means to to

again have a woman running for president

and I was struck by a profile view by

Jen pal in Vanity Fair where she noted

that now six of Michigan 13 House Seats

are held by women the Secretary of State

the Attorney General the Senate Majority

Leader and of course you the governor

are women that the last male office

holder to newly win Statewide in in

Michigan was Gary Peters in

2014 so does the success of of female

politicians in Michigan have any lessons

for for Democrats in this wider election

or at least how they should think or

what they should or should not worry

about in this election I do think that

there is a lesson to be taken I mean the

reason the whole world is going to be

focusing on Michigan and a handful of

states is because we are a microcosm of

the country we're swing state and we I

think have Rich diversity and so for all

of these reasons Michigan takes on a a

heightened importance in in elections I

think that you know always being

cognizant of the fact that that that is

the case centers me as a as a leader and

as a michigander who was raised by a

republican father and a democratic

mother back in the day when you could

still have a marriage of mixed political

parties all of that being said we got to

be able to to get things done and

delivered for people and in this

environment it's very challenging but I

also think it's that much more rewarding

when you're able to show yes we can get

things done and this is how government

should work you sort of sidestep the

question on on gender itself there do

you think there's anything to learn in

the success of women politicians in in

Michigan in particular are there

different ways that one runs or there

just I hear a lot in Democratic

strategist Circles of you know what you

have to do to be strong what you have to

do to to sidestep things that the

electorate might assume about you

there's I think a frightened hangover

from Hillary Clinton but at the same

time like I know the political science

here and women candidates do great so

I'm I'm curious what the lessons of

Michigan are on that specifically I'm so

glad you reminded me that that was part

of your question I knew I missed

something you know in Michigan with all

these women at the top in these

important Executive offices all at the

same time I can tell you every single

one of us was told at some point in our

political journey to these offices we

can't have too many women on the ticket

every one of us ignored that noise and

showed that when we are on the ticket

when we work together when we give one

another legitimacy and space to show up

as we are we all win we win literally in

that election but we as a as a state win

too because we are now setting an agenda

that is a lot more inclusive and so when

people look at this presidential matchup

I know that vice president har

has got the benefit of Hillary Clinton

doing this already once no she didn't

take the office but she ran a campaign

and that gives vice president Harris

more license to show up as she is and

people respond to that but it was

because there was someone who made the

path a little bit easier and I often

think about Jennifer granholm who was

governor of Michigan before I was she

made it a little easier for me to show

up and so I do think that there are so

many gender aspects to this upcoming

election and I hear the commentary she's

got to have a white man running mate I

don't know that I buy that looking at

our experience in Michigan I do think

she's got a lot of great people from

whom to choose a running mate and it's

going to be a great ticket but I am

mindful that our job is to make sure we

keep showing up as we are and make path

for the people who come after us a

little bit easier

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people talk a lot about women and gender

when women run but but I actually want

to talk about masculinity and gender

when when men run because this election

feels feels very strangely gendered to

me with with Trump advance and this was

true before Joe Biden stepped aside I

mean I think if you watched Trump's

night of the RNC and watched Hulk Hogan

you know ripping his shirt and you see

Lee Dana White introducing Donald Trump

there was a kind of I mean it felt very

actually Judith butan like almost like a

gender play of masculinity happening and

it seems

very there's something strange about it

this year Vance comments about cat

ladies about people without children not

having a stake in the future of the

country it feels very sort of insecure

and and and overdone I've had a little

bit of trouble putting my own hands

around it but for all the talk of of KLA

Harris as a woman to top the ticket the

sort of gender and family politics and

presentation of Donald Trump and and JD

Vance has had a a strange I guess maybe

Governor Tim Waltz would call it weird

Dimension to it and I'm curious what

you've made of that side of it and and

what you think its roots in our politics

right now are I think that really struck

me watching the Republican Convention as

well I think he also walked out to it's

a man's world you know I think that the

language and all the strange weird

things that they have said over the

years really um ultimately are are small

you know I can't help but think about

something that Bill Clinton said

which is strong and wrong beats weak and

right every time and I thought about

that in the first presidential debate I

think about that with regard to Donald

Trump but the funny thing is in this

vein is really small and weak strength

is having the humility and wisdom to

make a seat at the table for others to

recognize not one of us has all the

answers which is why many voices need to

be at a table real diversity real

representation real empowerment and so

those visuals from that last night at

the RNC I think are going to be in sharp

contrast to what I anticipate will be a

joyful happy warrior type event at the

DNC and in my book the last chapter is

called the happy warrior it was advice

that a debate coach gave me and he said

the happy warrior wins every debate you

got to be tough but you don't have to be

tough and mean you can be tough and

joyful or tough and kind at the same

time and I think that's a striking

difference from what you're going to see

in Chicago versus what we saw in

Milwaukee that uh debate coach also had

some counsel for you on what to draw on

on a sheet of paper to remind yourself

to be a happy warrior that that Council

didn't quite take but something else did

do you want to say say what is that you

used to remind yourself to be a happy

warrior okay tell the editors to get

ready to bleep so uh during that debate

the coach also said to remind yourself

to be a happy warrior when you go into

any debate and you go to the podium and

there are blank pages there take your

pen and write a big smiley face at the

top of the blank page to remind yourself

to smile and be happy now like probably

every person on the planet who's ever

been told to smile it has the opposite

impact so I knew writing a smiley face

was going to irritate me not make me

feel joyful so I went to I've been

thinking about what could I write at the

top that'll keep me loose and happy I

couldn't come up with anything but I was

going to a Kevin Hart concert at Little

Caesar's arena in downtown Detroit a man

named Niam Lynn opened up for Kevin Hart

and he was talking about how women today

are so much more empowered right this is

stand up and Detroit saying back in the

day if you wanted to see your girlfriend

but she was

menstrating she would come up with some

demure kind of obtuse excuse for why you

couldn't come over she'd say something

like oh my aunt's in town Aunt Flo right

so that was the code try not to say I'm

am on my period or whatever he said

women today are way more empowered if

you say I want to come over and see you

and it's that time of the month she'll

say you're not coming over cuz it's

Shark Week

[ __ ] and that cultivated the

happy warrior in me that I thought was

so funny it's about women's empowerment

and so on the top of my notes I would

write s SW comma MF to remind me to stay

loose and so before every big speech one

of my staff people Zach who's been with

me since the campaign and through all

these years as Governor always says

Governor don't forget it's Shark Week

and as I was going to give my speech for

the DNC for four years ago it was

virtual because of Co he said Governor

don't forget it's shark week and I said

oh no it's shark week and then I mouthed

[ __ ] but what I didn't

anticipate was that the DNC this is

before I went live by the way I didn't

anticipate the DNC would somehow let

that footage out and that the world

would see that's what I was really

saying so I was initially very

embarrassed and dismayed that that was

public and then people started making

t-shirts and candles and it's become

this hilarious kind of call to action

and so I do apparently love shark week

because of what's on television but also

every week in this business is Shark

Week yeah I can imagine that I also did

not know that ended up showing up on a a

candle I want to ask one more question

on the the gender dimension of the

election because you can talk about the

top of the tickets but there's also

something changing down in the

electorate so the Wall Street Journal

had this huge story over the weekend on

the gender gap opening among voters

under 30 so in 2020 voters under 30 went

in big for Joe Biden and this story was

built on a poll when Biden was still in

in the race but but in this poll Biden

had a 30-point lead in 2024 now among

women under 30 and Trump had a 14-point

lead among men under 30 the poll asked

after a huge number of issues young men

had become much more conservative than

than young women I'm curious why why you

think that is this is a much bigger Gap

than we've seen among young people in

the last couple of Elections we're

seeing it in a lot of polls not just one

I'm curious if you notice it when you're

out on the trail and I'm curious if you

have a view on what is sort of Shifting

young men to the right well one of the

things that I think is a source of Pride

for us is that in Michigan we had the

highest youth voter turnout in the

country in 2022 I mean it was incredible

as I went to campuses at like 8:00 in

the morning on a Friday we didn't even

offer free food and we had hundreds of

people showing up it was really exciting

and I think my big concern going into

this election is we've seen not a lot of

enthusiasm among younger voters now

that's changed quite a bit since um

kamla Harris is at the top of the ticket

and I think that's really exciting but I

do worry that like every age group The

divisive Politics the divisive rhetoric

the threats the villainization of your

fellow Americans is taking a a deep

toll tell me what you're going to do for

me don't tell me why I should be mad or

hate everyone what are you going to do

for me how are you going to make my life

better and I do think that that's what

we are going to continue to focus on but

it worries me this polarization we've

got to be able to talk to one or cuz one

thing I know there's no way you find

common ground with people if you can't

even have a conversation with them and

it's really hard in this climate but

there's something specific here among

young men

when I talk to some young men or when I

read the surveys or listen to the focus

groups or read the books or go on the

Reddit threads the thing I see them

saying is something well one there's

like real problems for young men Richard

Reeves and others have have written

about that a lot of their sort of job

and wage and and mental health outcomes

have gotten a lot worse but particular

over the past couple of years a lot of

them have come to this view that you

know that the Democrats don't don't like

them um or liberals don't like them that

you know the future is female that a lot

of traditionally male traits are are

sort of seen as less wanted at least in

the in the liberal Coalition that they

feel liked by the right and they feel

disliked looked down on like they're

sort of always on Under Suspicion on the

left that they're sort of always like a

like a predator waiting to happen now

I'm not endorsing this view but I do see

it quite a bit and I do see the sort of

frustration at the way they feel that

that to be a man is to be viewed as you

know sort of teetering on the edge of

going bad whereas like the the

accomplishments of of women are

something to be to be celebrated to be

honored I'm curious if you see that or

if you you know how you would answer to

somebody who does feel that who does

feel that among Democrats among liberals

they're not discriminated against but

they're just not well liked they don't

they don't feel like they have quite uh

a place the future is not in that

Coalition supposed to to be them

anymore I think the most powerful thing

we can do is seek to understand right in

the book I quote Ted lasso who

incorrectly quotes Walt Whitman but um

be curious not judgmental essentially is

is one of the important lessons that

that I live by and that I like try to

you know comport Myself by every single

day you know if there are people who are

feeling unincluded we need to understand

why you know one of the things that I

recall is when I first became governor

and when I was running I was in a event

and someone said that can you say black

lives matter all right we've come a long

way since then right but obviously

there's still a ton of work to do but

people are comfortable saying black

lives matter yes when you say that black

lives matter doesn't mean that no one

else's lives matter it's an

acknowledgement that there is a segment

of our population that is

disproportionately hurt

when they have encounters with with

police officers and that's why it's

important that we are educating and

making opportunities available and and

learning and and holding accountable

that is true in this moment as well if

someone is feeling unheard unseen

excluded we're not doing as good a job

as we need to because the Democratic

party is one where every person matters

and there is a a path to prosperity for

every person it also recognizes that

there have been historical barriers for

people and we seek to eliminate those as

well you can be both when you took

office in 2019 you circulated a one-page

document on how you wanted the

government to run your Administration to

run and the Washington Post reported on

some of it and I found it very

interesting it it said among other

things quote meetings were to be held

without phones and according to her her

being you her rules of pathological

punctual

meaning if you're on time you're late be

present she wrote don't waste time no

distractions tell me a bit about your

philosophy of of

meetings well I think it it all comes

back to respect it all comes back to

understanding that these positions are

an honor to hold even on the hardest day

it's an honor to be the governor of

Michigan and my whole team needs to

understand that as well and that's what

it's about you know in the end of the

book I close with a story about my

grandfather Dana P Whitmer who was

superintendent of Pontiac schools during

the time of court ordered busing Pontiac

was a district where they were required

to bus children of color into the school

district and the white parents in the

district were protesting the Klux clan

in Howell Michigan targeted my

grandparents and bombed buses in Pontiac

my grandfather was in Time Magazine and

I shared share that story because when

everything is so heavy we've got to look

to leaders who came before us and I'm

honored to have this lineage but also

one of Dana P whitmer's philosophies was

you show up early if you're on time

you're late and if you're late you don't

get into the meeting and he would

notoriously start his meetings on time

and lock the doors to the meeting room

so if you weren't early you missed the

meeting and everyone knew it he was you

know p logically punctual just I guess

that's where I get it from tell me about

the phone side of it though because I

I'm in a lot of meetings with phones

with with laptops why did you say no

phones in the meetings my personal

experience has been I am a much active

listener and absorb the information and

process it if I got a pen and paper in

front of me instead of a distraction

which a phone can bring in all sorts of

information I know some young people and

my kids included use their technology to

take their notes but I prefer paper and

Pen I get that from my father there's a

interstitial in the book about the power

and the importance of taking notes but I

really learned in law school the way for

me to best process important information

is to to write it down in the moment and

to stay engaged and I think technology

has done some wonderful things but it

also I think has really cheapened our

our time together when it is a part of

it then speaking of pen and paper always

our final question what are three books

you'd recommend to the

audience okay I am right now reading

some fiction tomorrow and tomorrow and

tomorrow which is a great book I've

loved it burn book by Caris swisser is a

great book and I mean classic To Kill a

Mocking Bird my all-time favorite

Gretchen Whitmer thank you very much

thank

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