[music]

>> Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts,

radio, news.

>> Following his meeting moments ago in the

Oval Office with President Trump is

NATO's Secretary General Mark Rutte. Mr.

Secretary General, welcome back to

Bloomberg TV and radio. It means a lot

to us to take your time on what I know

is a very busy day. Absolutely. We saw

you in there. We were watching the whole

back and forth with yourself, the

president, and a gaggle of reporters in

the Oval Office. You had everything from

whiteboards to stats to make the

argument to President Trump. Did you

manage to soften some of the edges when

it comes to Trump and the alliance?

>> Well, I mean, what I think is important

is to be fair. And and and fairness

dictates that this president is really

doing a huge amount of work to get NATO

in better shape. He had a big success

last year in The Hague with the 5%

spending commitment. But what I wanted

to show to him tonight is that over the

last 10 years, since Trump 45 and now

Trump 47, we see the staggering increase

on European and Canadian allies spending

more. But also, when it comes to the

year-on-year increase, Trump 47 in 2025,

almost 20% more spending.

Which is, of course, because of Russia

and the threat and the war in Ukraine.

But also very much because this

president is is quite forcefully

encouraging allies to spend more. And I

think it is fair to share that with him.

>> Well, and Mr. Secretary General, it's

not just the president, it's others in

his administration as well. The Defense

Secretary Pete Hoekstra said in Brussels

recently that the US would stop paying

NATO dues if the allies don't meet

defense spending targets. In your

understanding, is this just the

long-term 5% target that matters, or has

has this administration set out to you

that there needs to be more interim

goals met in the short term?

>> Well, what we are seeing already is Mr.

almost 20% increase that you are

reaching the max in terms of absorption

capacity. You can only each year on year

spend so much more because you have to

find and hire and contract the men and

women in uniform and obviously you have

to work very hard and the US is doing

that, Europe is doing that on expanding

the output of the defense industry your

base without which at the moment on both

sides of the Atlantic is simply not

producing enough. So the president is

now meeting with the bosses of the big

defense industrial companies in the

United States to again make that

argument. Um but then given that

background spending almost 20% more

means that he not only got a promise in

The Hague but that allies are now

delivering. Take Germany spending twice

as much in 2029 than they did in 2021.

More than 150 billion by 2029. These are

really big numbers and a great success.

>> I want to ask you about Ukraine uh

Secretary General and what you heard

from President Trump today. It was

shocking for a lot of people to see

massive black clouds of smoke pluming

over St. Petersburg. We know that

Ukraine is reaching deeper into Russian

territory and making remarkably use of

its advanced drone technology. Does

President Trump believe Ukraine can win

this war militarily?

>> Well, let me not speak for President

Trump because I think he should do that

himself but obviously we discussed

Ukraine and you heard this also in the

public part of the meeting with the

media in the Oval Office that he

acknowledged that Ukraine is doing well

on the battlefield

uh is doing well [clears throat] in

terms of hitting some of the critical

infrastructure in Russia. I really think

that over the last 3 to 6 months Ukraine

is is doing much better and when you

look at the amounts of Russians getting

killed or seriously wounded we are now

reaching numbers of 30 to 35,000.

When you look at the war in Vietnam in

14 years uh the United States lost

Russia is now losing in 5 weeks what the

United States lost in 14 years in

Vietnam. Russia is losing now in 3 weeks

what the Russians lost in 10 years in

Afghanistan in the 1980s. These are

staggering numbers. So,

as you saw in the public part of the

meeting, the President from

acknowledging the fact that Ukraine the

Ukrainians are doing so much better.

Also thanks to US support, which is

there paid for by the European and

Canadian allies. And other key help the

US is providing.

>> Well, as we consider what Ukraine has

been able to accomplish in the longer

range strikes we are seeing into Russian

territory, Secretary General, have any

of the NATO allies expressed some

concern about that? The idea that it

could spark further Russian retaliation

and in rope NATO countries into it?

>> Well, I think we should start by seeing

what happened in 2022. By the way, in

2014 when they grabbed Crimea and then

in February 2022 when they started the

full onslaught on Ukraine. This was

unprovoked. There was absolutely no

reason for the Russians to do this. So,

it's only fair for Ukraine to be able to

defend itself and they do this with help

from the West.

But also because of their own ingenuity.

They are extremely successful in

constantly updating the drone technology

and the anti-drone technology, staying

ahead of the Russians

and therefore really

being successful on the battlefield.

>> You know, it's really something. We

watched you very closely in the Oval

Office today, Secretary General. And

this went on for quite some time and it

was not your first visit, of course,

with President Trump. Do you have the

playbook now? Did you cook up the

recipe? You show up with the goods, a

whiteboard, the stats, and a story that

the President wants to hear and you

might be able to advance your cause.

>> You know, what I believe is to be fair

when leadership is successful. His

leadership is successful and what I

wanted [clears throat] to show today is

the successful in three ways. One on

Iran, a deep grain and nuclear

capability. Two on NATO, not only

getting the allies to deliver to to to

commit to 5% defense spending but also

to deliver on the spending and that's

clearly what is happening at the moment.

And third, by taking that that code that

mental of being the leader of the free

world. And and when he meets in Ankara,

he will meet with all the allies but

also 10 countries there as guests from

the Middle East, from the Indo-Pacific.

A total combined GDP of 70 70 70

trillion dollars, two and a half the

size of the United States.

Absolutely there to hear his views, to

to to get his thoughts on the next steps

we collectively have to take.

>> Mhm. Well, of course the financial

aspect of this and the investments into

the defense industrial base are one part

of it, Mr. Secretary General, but

there's also the consideration of actual

human capital and US military forces

that are currently stationed all around

Europe. Obviously, we have now seen

withdrawals and considerations this

administration is making about moving

troops around further. How do you avoid

anything

being chaotic in nature

as that plays out and how does Europe

make sure that it's able to adequately

defend himself itself in a in a surprise

scenario? What are those preparations

like?

>> I I think the United States is doing

that. So, let's first

agree that the United States has to take

care of multiple theaters, not only

Europe, also for example the

Indo-Pacific and if a situation would

occur where they have to defend both

sides of the equation, both the

Indo-Pacific and Europe, they have to

avoid the situation in which they have

spread their resources too thinly. This

is why Europeans have to step up. This

is NATO 3.0, a stronger Europe and a

stronger NATO. That means that the US

will stay involved when it comes to the

nuclear umbrella, but also when it comes

to the conventional. But over time, what

you now will see, and this is a

structured process, uh is that the

Europeans are taking over more and more

of that leadership role. For example,

when it comes to the three combatant

commands, they will uh over the next

18 to 24 months move from American

generals and admirals to European

generals and admirals. So, that's that's

also an example of European stepping up.

And also when it comes to Ukraine, the

fact that the US is still providing all

the support, but paid for by Europeans

and Canada, which is only fair. So,

Europe stepping up, the US staying

heavily involved when it comes to the

conventional and nuclear

um deterrence in Europe.

>> President said a lot to say about NATO's

lack of involvement in the Strait of

Hormuz. Did that come up today? Did he

have a message for you on this or is he

moving on?

>> No, yeah, you've seen us in the public

part. And I know there is

disappointment. And my what I want The

point I wanted to make is that the

disappointment has to do with a couple

of isolated cases. Yes, they are there.

I understand the disappointment. But

when you look at the overall picture of

European nations living up to their

bilateral basing

basing agreements with the United

States. So, this is not NATO, these are

bilateral agreements, but obviously they

they are all allies.

When you look at that, what you see is

between the end of February, when the

war started on the 28th of February,

until the ceasefire mid-April, that

between 4,000 and 5,000 US planes taking

off from European bases. This is Europe

as one big power projection platform for

the United States.

>> know that before you told him?

>> I guess so. Yes, I I he all these

numbers, but I think it is fair to also

point out to that fact that fact.

Yeah.

>> Well, as we consider the different facts

and figures here, Mr. Secretary General,

when we

consider the actual articles that that

bind together the NATO alliance,

including Article 5, I know before you

came over to speak with us, you were

speaking with a number of reporters, and

you told them that you are absolutely

certain that the US would protect Europe

if necessary. Is that just a certainty

that you feel the US would abide

by Article 5, or did the president say

that to you directly? Did he verbally

reaffirm that commitment?

>> I again, I'm I will never in my role as

Secretary General disclose what we

discussed between between closed doors.

But let me say this, Article 5 is there

to protect the whole of the alliance,

and

the US is not only involved in NATO to

protect Europe. NATO is also there to

protect the United States.

You have seen Jonas Gahr Støre, the

Prime Minister of Norway, visiting the

White House in April last year, and

showing those charts with these huge

Russian nuclear submarines

just over the border from Norway in

these big Russian ports. And he

explained to the president, these

submarines are not there to attack

Norway, they're there to attack the

United States. And to prevent these

submarines

to become a threat to the United States,

we have the alliance working together,

making sure that these submarines are

not capable of reaching the shores on

this side of the Atlantic. And then when

it comes to Europe as such,

the fact that the US is so heavily

involved in Europe also gives the United

States

the ability to do long-range strikes,

the ability to control critical choke

points, the ability to have industrial

depth when it comes to defense

industrial production. So there are many

reasons why the US is involved, not only

to protect Europe, but also because the

defense of the US mainland is involved

here.

>> President had some nice things to say

about Turkey and President Erdoğan in

the Oval Office today. And of course, we

had pretty big news. It was a

market-moving headline, the president

announcing he's sending more engines,

aircraft engines to Turkey despite

objections from some in Congress.

Secretary General, is is this the right

move right now?

>> I never comment about these bilateral

decisions. So, that you have to

understand when there are discussions

between allies, you will see me go mute

and then trying to help behind the

scenes when decisions are being made

between allies when it comes to specific

defense industrial decisions. I'm always

staying out of that, of course, taking

note.

For me, one thing is crucial, keeping

the alliance together, making sure we

are as strong as possible, and the

United States is providing the

leadership

and the defense industrial output and

the encouragement to make sure we stay

strong.

>> Well,

and understanding your reluctance to

talk about a specific defense systems

between countries, can you shed some

light as to whether there is a

conversation happening amongst all of

the allies about increasing the supply

of Patriots?

Specifically, what is the nature of

those conversations?

>> Well, that's a crucial conversation

because the Patriot missiles, the

Patriot missiles are crucial when it

comes to the Patriot systems to be

maximum effective, obviously. And what

we are seeing at the moment is that

Ukraine needs them

to protect their cities, to protect

their critical infrastructure. The

Russians are not able to advance on the

front line. They are losing a lot of

Russians as we discussed already in this

interview,

but obviously there is still the threat

from Russia when it comes to cities and

the critical infrastructure in Ukraine.

So, that's one reason why we need to

ramp up

Patriot missile production. There is

close cooperation between companies in

the United States and companies in

Europe to help with that productions.

So, a lot is going on.

I guess the meeting the president is now

having with the big defense industrial

companies will also partly be about the

Patriots, but also the other defense

industrial output of the United States.

So, yes, this is absolutely being

discussed and it is very important.

>> This is what you need most now, the

interceptors for Patriots, THAADs? Are

there others, Secretary?

>> Of course, we also need

long-range

ammunition. We need We need everything

to ramp up the production of everything.

Good news is that our stockpiles are

are in a in a good

position. So, we can defend ourselves,

but

with the war in Ukraine and the war in

in the Middle East, obviously, we have

to make sure that we keep that

production going.

And with all the money coming in, there

is also a from a purely commercial

perspective for defense industrial

companies, every reason to ramp up

production because the demand is there

and the money is there, both in the US

and in Europe and Canada.

>> NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, we

thank you so much, Secretary General.

We'd love to follow up after the summit

in Ankara. Thank you for being so

generous with your time.