Some of the greatest seducers were not

good-looking at all. What are the

qualities of a great seducer? I'm

revealing stuff I shouldn't be

revealing. Robert Greene is one of the

best-selling authors in history.

An internationally renowned expert on

power strategies.

Been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, Kanye

West, and Drake.

Written six international best-sellers

that have become legendary. Why did you

write a book about seduction? Seduction

is a high form of power. People will do

what you want without ever even

realizing. Seduction is a mating ritual.

You can't just swipe and get it. But,

because of all the dating apps, if you

are able to understand the language of

seduction, you're going to have so much

more power and success than anybody

else. One thing about words is people

can lie, but body language it doesn't

lie. You master that language, you can

start deciphering all this

People are giving you. It's about

psychology, and it's about how you carry

yourself. If you feel confident, it will

naturally radiate through your gestures.

But, what is real confidence, and how

does one build it? Confidence comes from

We've talked about the topic of powers.

But, in 2018, you had a stroke.

In that moment, it sounds like your

power had been taken from you. The left

side of my body is paralyzed, and that

was not easy. I've got to find a

strategy to deal with all this

Please understand that the ability that

you have now to run, to walk, to type,

it can be taken away from you. It's

miserable. Please don't take it for

granted.

Before we get into this episode, just

wanted to say thank you first and

foremost for being part of this

community. Um the team here at The Diary

Of A CEO is now almost 30 people, and

that's literally because you watch and

you subscribe, and you um leave

comments, and you like the videos, that

that this show has been able to grow.

And it's the greatest honor of my life

to sit here with these incredible people

and just selfishly ask them questions

that I'm pondering over or worrying

about in my life. But, this is just the

beginning for The Diary Of A CEO. We've

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Means the world.

Let's get on with it.

What do I need to know about you and

your your earliest years to

to understand the life that you went on,

that journey you went on, and the person

you came to be? Well, uh I grew up here

in Los Angeles, not far from where we

are, in in a neighborhood called Baldwin

Hills, and then we moved to another

neighborhood.

Had a very nice childhood, very

middle-class family.

My father was a salesman his whole life,

worked for the same company for 40

years.

Just sold chemical supplies.

Um and you know, my parents kind of left

me alone a lot. I was basically my

sister almost kind of raised me in a way

and

and I you know, I had a very nice

childhood, kind of left alone, sort of

an introvert.

Books kind of shaped me. I became an

avid reader in early age.

No knew I wanted to be a writer.

Got heavily into drugs, I'm afraid, in

high school because that's that was the

time in the where I went to school and

in college.

Had some great experiences. I look very

fondly back even on my drug experiences,

even though they got kind of depressing

after a while.

But it kind of shaped me in in some

ways.

And you know, that was that was me

growing up, you know? And if And I had a

an attitude or a

a lens in which I looked at people from

a distance. Like I was always sort of

obsessed

with

people wore masks and the way I looked

at it, even when I looked at my my

parents and their friends and I said,

"What is really going on behind there

the masks that they wear and all the

social niceties going on?

What is behind what is really the human

animal like?" And so,

these are kind of the themes that's that

that were make big part of my me growing

up.

From what I read, you had

a lot of different jobs and a lot of

different industries up until the point

when you wrote um the first of your many

books called The 48 Laws of Power back

in 1998.

And I was looking at all of these

different jobs you'd had and they all

seemed to be completely different from

one another. So, then trying to

understand how you arrived at a moment

where you then wrote a book on the topic

and subject matter of power

um having not been, you know, uh

psychology graduate

or

seemingly worked in any industry related

to like human psychology seemed to be

really peculiar to me.

Yeah, and also I never really had a lot

of power up until that point. So, it

wasn't like I knew everything about

being a leader or anything.

Um you know, a lot of things that happen

in life are kind of

by coincidence or serendipitous. You

don't necessarily plan on it, which is

sort of when you look back on it, you

can see a kind of an odd plan going on,

like a destiny or fate, but in the

moment I didn't feel that.

Um I had all of these different jobs as

you mentioned some of them completely

unrelated. You know, I worked in

construction, I had a construction job,

I worked in a detective agency, I was a

tour guide, I helped write an

encyclopedia,

I taught English in Spain, you know, on

and on and on and on and on.

But I I was searching I wanted to be a

writer and a writer needs experiences.

I just was hungry for weird experiences.

You know, I never really stuck at any

one job and by the time you're 37, 38

you know, my parents are starting to

worry about me. I'm starting to worry

about me. I'm getting a little bit

depressed. Even have moments where

suicidal thoughts are floating in my

brain like I'm very ambitious. I know I

could do something well, but it's never

come together.

And so here's the serendipity part. I'm

in Italy for a job, one of my 80

different jobs, and I meet a man who's a

book packager there

on this particular job we're on.

And he's he's a Dutchman. I'm not going

to imitate him, but he asked me if I had

any ideas for a book.

And suddenly

all of the painful experiences in my

life working in Hollywood, all the

I've worked for, all these

weird politicking, all the manipulative

games, all the crap that I had seen, it

just came like almost vomiting out of me

and I said, you know,

here we are 20 What was 1990s, in 20th

century back then. Here we are in the

late 20th century

and people don't dress like they did in

the days of Machiavelli, right? They

don't wear wigs and stuff, but it's the

same damn thing. It's the same bloody

battles going on, the same

manipulations, the same kind of, you

know, people all don't reveal who they

are.

And it's a timeless game of power, just

the same as Louis the 14th or Cesare

Borgia or the people, the CEOs in the

late 20th century. So this this timeless

thing and I as I'm telling him this, his

eyes are lighting up. He says, "Wow,

this could be this could really be a

book."

And you know,

he said, "Look, Robert, I'll pay you to

live

while you write half the book and then

we'll sell it."

And as I told you before, I was

desperate. It was my get rich or die

trying moment. I went back to Los

Angeles. I borrowed money from my

parents cuz I was that poor.

And I wrote a treatment and he loved it

and then the rest is history. That's

sort of

my long-winded answer to your question.

That's so interesting. It's crazy how in

life

things can just take such a

turn

out of nothing. And you never know what

that thing is going to be. And I mean,

you say the rest is history there. Give

me an idea of the success of that book,

The 48 Laws of Power, because I mean,

I've seen it everywhere for for as long

as I've been looking at books. So, I I

what's the Give me some quantify the

global success of that book.

Quantify? Yeah.

Well, here in the US, it's it's sold

quite a bit over 2 million copies, which

is great. The weird thing is, it's

selling now more than it ever has sold

before. In other words, the the

percentage of books that were selling

here in 2023 is greater than any period

before. So, it's accelerating.

Which is insane, you know? And even my

English publisher's having the same uh

is telling me the same stuff.

So, it's kind of accumulated it. It

started off a little bit slowly. I mean,

we got press, but it became this kind of

cult thing. I've had very little um

publicity in mainstream media, which was

big back then. It's not big anymore,

thank God. But, um

it was a word of mouth. It's like, "Have

you heard about this book? It's kind of

dark and blah blah blah blah blah."

It got on a few television shows. There

was this show, a reality show with

boxers. I think it was called The

Contender,

in which the finalist held up a copy of

the book and said this book helped me

get to where I am now. And it sold like

crazy. It got into the hip-hop stream,

you know? Jay-Z was the first person I

ever saw quoting the book in in in

print, in in Playboy interview. And

then, you know, 50 Cent and all that and

Drake and all these people. That really

kind of set it into the stratosphere.

So, it's it's slowly become a bigger and

bigger thing. And um

I had no idea, you know? I thought it

was a weird book and it could be

successful, but I had no idea the

journey I was about to begin. It's

it's it's weird.

That journey of writing this book, has

your

have your feelings towards the book

evolved or changed over time? Because

society moves on, you move on as an

individual as a human, you learn new

things, you mature, and then the book is

kind of held in time.

Not really.

Um I I my philosophy in life is is never

look back, regret nothing. You know,

it's it's there, I did it. It came in a

particular moment in my life and in and

in the zeitgeist, and things have

changed a little bit.

But I was it was a very serious effort

to to try and get at something timeless.

Now, yes, there's a dark side to it and

maybe I've moved on from that. And I did

honestly, when I wrote my fourth book,

Mastery,

I was a little bit concerned that young

people were getting

to were thinking that the whole game of

life is about politics, manipulation.

So, I wrote a book to kind of

counter that.

But I I I think the book is is true and

it's held up. I think

if I look at business, what's going on

in the business world,

I kind of got

I think I hit it on the nail about what

goes on in the dynamics and the power

game.

You know, I wrote a book on human nature

and the idea is we were formed hundreds

of thousands of years still in

particular circumstances, our brains are

wired a certain way.

Yes, we're very sophisticated. Yes, we

have the internet. Yes, I'm here being

interviewed by you on a podcast. It's

pretty insane. But we haven't

fundamentally changed. The same raw

emotions of envy, of aggression, of of

you know, it's worrying about our

status, about having to disguise

ourselves and appear like we're saintly

and loving that we don't have a shadow

which we all have.

None of that has changed.

So,

yeah, I wouldn't write that book now

because I'm at a different place in life

and and I understand that, but

I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in

any way. I stand by it and I think I hit

at something real.

What is in your your definition, what is

power? You know, I was really compelled

when you were talking about the

evolution evolutionary roots of power,

but like at its essence, what is power?

It's not what you think it is. It's not,

you know, Vladimir Putin or presidents

or Biden or all these political figures

and these big games. Power is a feeling.

It's an essence. It's an emotion. It's a

It's a human need and desire.

And really, what power is is a sense of

understanding yourself

and and being able to control yourself.

So, the way I look at it, I like to look

at it not through the lens of great

power politics, but as as an average

everyday human being here in the United

States or in England.

The feeling that you have

with your children, with your spouse,

with your colleagues,

the people who work for you,

the sense that you have no control,

that you can't influence them with your

ideas, that you can't get them to maybe,

you know, soften some of their ugly

behavior if they if they have that, that

you can't get them interested in helping

you with a project or whatever, is the

most miserable feeling a human being can

have.

Malcolm X had a quote that I love, which

is

absolute power corrupts,

but absolute powerlessness corrupts even

more.

I'm I'm butchering it, but that was the

gist of it.

The feeling of powerlessness is actually

more corrupting than the feeling of

having a lot of power.

You It makes It turns people into being

passive-aggressive, into playing all

kinds of weird games, negative games to

get power.

You want to feel that you have a degree

of control over events in your life,

over people,

over your future.

And that to me is what it power is,

right? And so,

some of that involves these games that I

I mentioned in there, and some of it

goes beyond the 48 Laws of Power, which

I've tried to indicate in my other

books.

But it's the sense that I'm not helpless

in this world.

I remember when I first entered the work

world

as a very naive college graduate with

all these ideals and things I'd read,

cuz I was studying literature and

languages.

I'm like, "Man, this is weird. People

are playing all these kind of games. I'm

in over my head." I made mistakes. I got

fired for being, you know, too brash,

for for outshining the master. It was

painful,

right? And so,

learning You don't have to use the Laws

of Power. I don't advocate crushing your

enemy totally. I hope I don't have any

enemies ever that I need to crush ever.

You just need to know these things, so

that when you enter the work world,

you're not naive, you're not stupid, you

don't make the same kind of mistakes

that I made. You spare yourself the

pain. You understand the most

fundamental thing about human nature.

People have egos.

Even your boss has an ego. You think he

He or she doesn't, because they're

powerful. They have They're even more

insecure than other people.

You need to be aware of these things, so

that you don't inadvertently make them

feel insecure and suffer the

consequences.

So, um that's I don't know. That's sort

of my idea of power that I was trying to

describe there. The way you describe it

is more of a sort of intrinsic, um

force,

perception of yourself. When people

think of power, they think of having

control over others or their influence

over others, but you've kind of made it

more of a internal

force. Yeah, well, if you can't control

yourself, then you're in a lot of

trouble in this world, right? Because

when you just naturally are yourself

doing things, you're going to offend

people. You learn early on we're social

animals. I have to tailor my behavior,

you know? If you go on babbling about

all about how you feel and think, etc.,

and you just say what's the first thing

on your mind, you're going to end up

having a very

very short career. You're going to be

saying things that are going to offend

people. You're going to be making a fool

of yourself. You're going to be saying

things that you end up regretting,

right?

So, you have no self-control.

And if you see somebody who has no

self-control,

it makes them it makes you look like

you're not powerful. If you can't

control yourself, how can you control

anything in your environment? How can

you be a leader, right?

So, you have to learn

certain things about about your nature,

about who you are, and and not just just

be anybody. You have to kind of tailor

your appearances as well.

Because for good or for bad, I I'm a

believer in looking at the human animal

without shame and embarrassment, just as

we are, right? And appearances matter.

It's the animal part of our nature.

We we are we look at we look we judge

people by how they how they how they

appear, how they dress,

their tone of voice, their body

language, etc., etc.

It would be in an ideal world,

we wouldn't judge people by appearances.

We would just judge them by what's

inside of them. Yes, I agree with that.

But that we're not ideal. We're not

descended from angels. We're descended

from primates.

So,

you have to understand that appearances

matter.

And this is part

of the game. And so,

you have to control your appearances a

little bit. You have to tailor it. You

have to be a bit of actor in this world

on and on and on.

You know, these are things that people

don't like to admit about ourselves. We

like to think that we we're much more

much more idealistic that we're that

these things really don't matter in the

end.

And I wish it were that way, but it's

not. And so, um I'm a bit more of a

realist when it comes to things like

that. But, yeah.

As you were talking about this

need to keep up appearances to some

degree in order to survive and to fit

into the the tribes that we form in our

lives, it made me think about how many

guests I've had on this podcast who work

in maybe the the entertainment industry

or other industries. Yeah. You know,

they're they're famous or whatever. And

they report that keeping up appearances

had a really detrimental impact on their

happiness and their fulfillment in life

because in some cases they, you know, it

meant that they were doing a job as a

presenter and had to always be happy

when inside they didn't feel that. And

maybe the contrast of reality and um and

perception caused them a lot of harm. Or

they've built a life around things that

they're not interested in. I think you

you touched on some of that in Mastery.

Yeah. Um that's the that's the question

I have, which is keeping up appearances

and the impact that that has on your

happiness. Are you wearing a mask Mhm.

um

and happiness? What's the relationship?

I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power

where

you have to play this this game in life.

It's a kind to me it's a form of wisdom,

which is

it's a wisdom that used to exist like in

the 18th century.

I read a book that had a big impact on

me many years ago called The Fall of

Public Man by Richard Sennett, in which

he described like cafe life in London in

the 18th century or France. And he was

saying back then when you entered the

public arena or your cafe, you knew you

were an actor. You left the house, you

put on the mask, and you had fun. You

know, you knew it was like fun. It was

play. You know, when you're a child, you

like playing games. You like putting on

costumes. You like playing your parents

or some character you saw on TV. It's

part of human nature. We like to play

these games. We're role players. We're

actors. And he was saying in the 18th

century, that was just a given in life.

That when you entered the public realm,

you knew you were an actor. And then

when you went home to your wife, your

family, or your husband, or wherever,

you dropped the mask. You would you

breathe a deep sigh of relief, go, "Now

I can be who I am." Right? And and it

wasn't a problem. It didn't create

neuroses. It didn't create this like,

"What's wrong with me? I'm I I don't

know who I am anymore."

So, people now, the problem now is we

don't have distance from that social

realm. And so, we think that if we're

acting, that's who we are. But it's not.

It's just that's part of being a social

animal is playing a role. You know, I

did a book with 50 Cent. And he kind of

exemplifies a lot of that.

He plays a role in life. You know, when

I met him, I I thought, "Uh-oh."

I was kind of intimidated. I was a

little bit afraid. You know, the thug.

This is a guy even when I met him, he

was, you know, just a few years away

from being shot and all this stuff.

And I met him,

and he was the nicest person in the

world. He was almost kind of sweet. He'd

hate it if I said that word, but he was

sweet, right? He was very down-to-earth.

He was very calm, etc. He's playing a

role when he goes out and he plays that

person, and he knows it. He knows it's

like He doesn't take it seriously. You

know, he had this big beef with Kanye

West back when I was doing the the the

book with him. And then I met the two of

them in Vegas when they were there for

the awards. They were like the best of

friends. They were joking. It was just a

game they were playing, right? So, what

I tell people is

we all are actors.

Humans are born actors. We learn at a

very early age to play that kind of

game.

It's kind of fun sometimes to do that,

you know?

Have a enjoy that part of life, but

don't think that it don't get it

confused with who you are in your

essence.

That's sort of the dance you're playing

between those two things. I understand

what you're saying and a lot of it has

to do as you said related to mastery.

Where people end up in a career

that doesn't suit them.

And I look I I I I think I understand

what you're getting at. When I look at

like presenters or people in the news

and they and they have to smile and be

so cheerful. I go

man, what a drag. I'd hate to be like

that. You know?

That is so false. Don't you feel kind of

don't you want to take a shower after

you being so cheerful and chatty and all

that

You know? Yeah, I understand that.

But if if that's the profession you

chose and you love it, then maybe you

don't feel that way. I couldn't do it

personally.

But, you know, I think

I think it's okay

to think of yourself as an actor. I

don't think there's anything wrong about

that. Um

the second very curious law in your book

that I uncovered was a was law number

two.

I'm talking about the 48 Laws of Power

here where it says, "Never trust friends

too much.

Learn how to use enemies."

Yeah. Do you trust your friends?

Okay, well, this everything in the book

is context. So, when you take things out

of context, it's a little harder to

understand. And what I'm trying to say

in that

I'm talking about in the work world,

when you're out in the social realm. And

one of the worst things that people do

is

you have a job and I've been guilty of

it myself even after I wrote the damn

book.

You're out in the work world and you

need to hire somebody.

You need to find a colleague. You need

to find some a partner or an employee.

Your mind naturally gravitates towards a

friend,

right? Because they know you, you trust

them, you have a relationship,

you know, and you feel comfortable with

them.

And it's a terrible mistake.

So many of the worst things have

happened in history are because of that

very problem.

Because

friends is there's all these emotions

involved between people, right? And

those emotions confuse the issue. So,

what I'm talking about in that law is

when you need to get results, you need

to think when you have a job or

something, you have to think in

practical terms, not in terms of

emotions, not in terms of friendship,

etc., etc.

So, you want to keep your work world

separate.

It's not everything about life is having

to be friends and having nice things and

everybody like you.

Sometimes what matters is getting

results done. And sometimes the best

person to work with isn't your friend

because they don't have all this other

stuff that we're talking about. In fact,

a very powerful move is if there's an

enemy out there,

somebody who you never got along with,

if you say if you approach them and say,

"Let's bury the hatchet, you know,

I have a job and I'd really like you to

work with me. I know you're really

smart."

That person the the the turnaround of

emotions is a very powerful thing where

they're going,

"Wow.

Yeah, sure. That's That's grand. Never

expected that." And they're all They're

highly motivated to now prove that

they're worthy of of your of your change

of mind.

So,

it's not about not trusting your friends

in the realm of friendship and personal

relationships. It's about being aware

that the work world is different from

the realm of personal relationships. The

other point I I found really curious was

was

point three about concealing your

intentions. And

Yeah. I I find this curious because I've

never really known where to land on this

when people ask me for advice on the

subject matter about how much of your

hand should you show? Whether it's in

business or life or whatever. There's a

There's a group of people that think you

should always just keep everything

you're doing and your intentions totally

secret because then people might copy

you or they'll attack you whatever. And

then there's another school of thought

that says when you're building

something, when you're doing something,

when you have a mission, you need to

share it with as many people as possible

because that will galvanize people to to

come along with the journey with you and

they'll want to support you and help

you.

So when I read um point number three

about concealing your intentions,

I wanted to to ask you about what what

you think about that. Which side do you

land on?

Well, everything depends on

circumstances. So the laws are never

meant to apply to every situation,

right? So when it's with your own team

and you're trying to inspire them and

you're trying to give them a vision,

you're trying to get them on your side,

yeah, you share your vision with them.

You share this is where the group is

going. This is where I want things to be

in three years. Let's all get together.

We're trying to do something very

positive for the world. Okay, here we

Here's my plan. Right? But then there

are circumstances

where revealing everything that what you

about what you're planning to do is

actually very counterproductive.

Right? So the business world

in the 21st century is extremely

competitive. It's getting worse and

worse by the day. As more and more

people now are entering the power arena

and I think it's a great thing. Where it

used to be just a realm where only older

white men had power and now it's the

doors have opened to everyone. The com-

level of competition is that much more

intense. Particularly now even with the

internet. You have rivals out there. You

You competitors out there. Even as we

talk right now. Maybe you're not

thinking about them, but they are.

They're They're looking to steal your

ideas. They're looking to take your

business away from you, etc. etc. Just

be aware of that phenomenon, and just

always saying what you're planning on

doing isn't always the wisest thing to

do. Sometimes, if you're in a tricky

situation,

making putting people off the scent,

giving them a red herring, and saying,

"I'm planning to do this." When in fact

you're planning to do that. It's a very

powerful technique. It's deception. But,

all's fair in love and war and business,

I'm I'm afraid. So, you know,

there are moments where you don't want

to lay all your cards out on the table,

right? You want to either create a

little bit of mystery, so that people

don't know what you're going to do next,

and they're wondering what you're going

to do next.

And as they're wondering what you're

going to do next, they're kind of

on their heels a little bit. What's the

next thing that

that Steven is planning? I don't really

know.

Wow. You know, it makes it it's a very

powerful approach. There are other times

and other experiences and moments in

life where you do want to reveal what

you're planning to do, because there's a

purpose behind it. I'm just saying,

be aware. Don't just act in this world.

Be aware. Have a strategic mindset.

Sometimes, concealing is what you need

to do. Sometimes, not concealing is what

you need to do. It's funny, when we have

this conversation about power and the

darkness and the shadows that people

have in them, I think a lot of people

listening,

and probably it seems that way because

I'm the one asking the questions, is if

I'm questioning society that I'm not

part of.

Um they'll think they don't They might

think they don't play these games,

right? They might, you know, So, that's

the question I have is like, have you

ever encountered anybody? Do you believe

there's anybody out there that doesn't

play power games, manipulation, have

shadows, have darkness in them? No, I

don't. But, um so, in my war book,

uh, I I read the biography of Mahatma

Gandhi,

one of the saintliest figures in

history, right?

And I realized

that Mahatma Gandhi was actually a

brilliant strategist. Now, I'm not

saying his use of non-violence and civil

disobedience

didn't come from the heart. He didn't

mean it. He wasn't actually He didn't

actually believe in the peaceful method.

He did. He was very sincere. But, he was

very strategic about it. And he planned

a campaign, several campaigns, like the

Salt March in the '20s,

where he knew,

for instance, that the English public

was very liberal-minded. They had this

ideal of themselves as being this very

They weren't colonialists. They weren't

imperialists. They were doing the best

for the world.

And he deliberately had these marches,

where he knew that that they're on They

would be reading in their newspaper and

seeing photographs

of Indian people being beaten up by

Englishmen

and and their Indian officers on the

streets of wherever.

It would have a terrible impact on the

public. He thought in terms of strategy.

Okay, so, there's Gandhi. Then, there's

Martin Luther King, who's somebody I

wrote about a lot in The Laws of Human

Nature. Another great icon whom I

admire, who actually was inspired by

Gandhi and had campaigns of civil

disobedience.

And there was a campaign, I believe it

was in Montgomery or Selma, I can't

remember which one,

where, um, he was getting fed up. They

weren't getting very far. The Civil

Rights Movement, they're reaching a

stalemate, and he was getting very

frustrated.

And,

um, somebody an advisor came to him

said, "Look,

we're going to have this massive march,

and and I I can get a lot of

elementary school and junior high school

students to be on this march, because

they believe in you, and they're very

fervent.

And I think it'd be great. And his

advisers go, "God, you can't do that.

You can't have put 13-year-olds at

risk." And Martin Luther King thought

about it for a minute, and he said, "No,

we're going to go ahead and do it."

Because, damn it, I want the American

public sitting in there all fat and

watching their televisions to see these

brutal, you know, Bull Connor, the the

police chief then.

I want to see these children being water

hosed and beaten, and it's going to have

an incredible impact. He was being

strategic, and his advisers were shocked

by it. But, it ended up proving to be

one of the most pivotal important

moments in the civil rights movement.

So, here you have Gandhi and Martin

Luther King. I'm never And Martin Luther

King was a flawed individual, as we

know, right? He had a private life that

wasn't exactly in the the same as his

public life.

I don't judge him for that, because he

was a brilliant man, and I admire him. I

love him deeply. Reading his biography

made me even admire him even more,

seeing that he had a human flawed side

to him.

But, these are icons that we set up, and

they reveal what I'm talking about in

human nature.

You can't escape it.

Yeah, maybe there was some saint born in

some century that I've never heard of

that maybe

got pretty far away from everything I've

talked about.

But,

you know, you know, we all have this

idea like

in Laws of Human Nature, I write about

irrationality, envy, aggression. We go,

"Oh, or narcissism." Narcissism is a

good one.

Oh, they're a narcissist.

I'm not a narcissist. I'm not

self-absorbed, but they are. Yeah, yeah.

I don't have any of those traits.

Well, damn it,

every single human being has

self-absorption traits. We can't help

it. We naturally think of ourselves

first. Yes, there are people who are

much deeper narcissists in life, no

doubt, and there are toxic narcissists,

but we all have a touch of it.

I want you to be a little more humble in

this world and not be so arrogant and

not think that you are somehow exempt

from having a dark side, that somehow

you were born with a halo over your

head, that you were born different, you

don't have human nature, that you're a

saintly person, you're much better. Get

rid of your moral superiority cuz I find

that deeply offensive. We are all cut

from the same cloth. We all have the

same flaws. And when you look at

yourself, and when I wrote the laws of

human nature, I'm going, "Damn it,

Robert.

You You have a dark side. You're a

narcissist." You know, I had to come to

terms with my irrationality, my

grandiosity, my aggressive instincts.

But it's the only way to change yourself

is to be aware that you have these

issues.

I have the narcissistic tendency. Now I

see it. All right. Now when they pop up

pop up, I can control it better. I can

say, "Damn Robert, you're being too

self-absorbed. You think more about the

other person." But if you go around in

life thinking, "I don't have any of

these problems. I'm not a narcissist."

You're never going to have the awareness

to stop the fact that you are actually

one.

Being a narcissist is not objectively a

good or a bad thing. Because when you

when you was obviously I know people are

having a It's a bad thing. It's a

narcissist cause a lot of harm and

that's very true. But in the context of

the human animal and why the human

animal develops certain attributes and

qualities to have to you know, maybe

further its survival or its ability to

stay within the social pact.

Is it just a consequence of being a

human to have these like shadow traits

and to be coercive and manip-

manipulative? Is it good or is it bad?

Or is it neither? It's neither. Neither.

Um

because it just is.

Right? Um so

with narcissism for instance,

um

there's a reason why we're narcissists.

So, I explain in the book, it's not my

own theory, it comes from some great

psychologist like Kohut, the origins of

narcissism, right? So, when you're

have to leave you when your parents have

to kind of not abandon you, but have to

not give you as much attention as you

used to have, and you're 3 years old or

4 years old,

you don't remember it, but it was very

painful.

Like, "Oh, they don't love me as much.

What's wrong with me, right?" You know,

I have to get that love and attention

not just naturally, I have to do things

to earn it, etc. etc.

And what happens with a lot of people in

that situation when you're a child is,

I have to develop my own I have to be my

own mother or father. I have to find a

way of loving myself.

When something bad happens, I have to

retreat inward and go, "I'm really not

so bad at all. I'm actually a decent

person. I like my own tastes. I like the

clothes that I wear, etc. etc." You're

developing the shreds of self-esteem,

right?

And people who never develop that

because they were abused or they were

abandoned or even if they were

suffocated,

never develop that self-esteem.

And so, what happens in life is whenever

if you don't develop that and you get

older

and people attack you and yell at you or

criticize you, you can't retreat inward

to that self-esteem, that love you have.

The only thing you know is to get angry,

to get the call it narcissistic rage,

and to yell at people and say, "God, get

away from me. You're you're evil, etc.

etc. etc." Right? And then the other

problems evolve where the only way I

don't have that inner self-esteem, the

only way I can get people to love me is

by being incredibly dramatic and overly

dramatic, etc. etc. etc. and always

making myself the center of attention.

That's what creates a deep narcissist.

That's their only way of getting the

love that they need. So, children, we

all need that degree of self-esteem,

that anchor in our life. So, narcissism,

self-love, is not a bad thing.

But, what happens is as you get older,

if you go too deep into it,

it becomes a problem.

And so, what I say is you need to take

that self-love

and

it has a good function and turn it

outward as

much as you can and turn it into empathy

and love and consideration for other

people. More That's your task as you get

older in life. That's how I approach all

of these flaws.

You can't run away from them. You can't

run away from your shadow, your dark

side. You can make it work for you. You

can make it positive and productive and

healthy. You can become a healthy

narcissist, which is a

a

a name that I use in the book.

You can use your dark side for positive

purposes.

Let's say you have a lot of anger in

your in inside and I had a lot of anger

when I was younger. I was a very angry

young man.

Right?

Channel that into some kind of cause.

Like and you know that I have a lot of

causes that I believe in very deeply.

And when I was younger, I was like that.

Channel that energy into something

productive and helpful and put it into

something that goes to something that

helps society. That's using your dark

side for positive purposes because the

dark side of human nature has a lot of

creativity, has a lot of energy.

An artist has to have a dark side. You

use your dark side because all those

dark emotions, all the people that shat

on you in your life,

they inspire you. They create your best

work. Don't run away from your shadow.

Don't run away away your narcissism. Use

it in a in a healthy way.

And acknowledge it. I think that's the

hardest thing for people to do, right?

Yeah.

So so few people, I think, including

myself, like have really fully

understood what their their shadow and

their dark side is. I mean, doing this

podcast has really helped me because I

learn things from other people

vicariously and then I look at reflect

on myself. Or keeping a diary has helped

me to understand that. But that first

step in someone having the

self-awareness to understand their dark

side. I mean, there's even a lot of

people who

confronting their dark side would be so

It feels like it would be so impactful

on their self-esteem in a negative sense

that they spend their life

putting up a wall to never go there. I

mean, there's some people who you even

mention something

to them and they would trigger triggers

them.

Yeah.

You know, we can all think of those

people. Um

We can all think of those people. The

The really interesting thing there is

the role that your earliest play on your

relationship with power.

Because when I think about some of the

nicest I don't know if this is just a

general

stereotype or a narrow observation I've

had, but some of the nicest people I've

met in terms of you know, being the

opposite of whatever a toxic narcissist

is, seem to have really

comfortable, loving,

secure, safe

early experiences.

And then is that is that broadly true in

your view?

It's a generalization, but there is is

some truth to it. I mean,

there's things that called attachment

theories where

uh psychologists have looked at the kind

of attachment you had to your parents

and they categorize it in four different

ways and there's the ideal, the best one

where you have this

incredibly loving mother and father and

they they're they're giving you

unconditional love, but they know also

how to give you your independence, etc.

It's not terribly common. I don't know

what the percentage would be. Then

there's the levels and levels and then

and then you get to the fourth level

that's like the abandonment one.

Where or abusive and abandonment where

you basically leave the child alone. You

don't give it any attention, any love

and it's very crippling. Right?

But the thing is children are much

stronger than we think they are.

They're very resilient. They're very

resourceful.

They're going to find their love.

They're going to find a way to

compensate for it in some way.

And with something very interesting when

I was doing seduction and some of my

other books

and I look at people who were like very

charismatic.

Like a Malcolm X, like a Marilyn Monroe.

I could go on and on and on. These are

people that came from very very bad

families, right?

They had no love. Marilyn Monroe was an

was an orphan essentially, raised in an

orphanage, you know?

Her whole life was I got to get people

to love me. I need love so desperately.

And her way of doing it

was to literally make love with the

camera. Nobody ever done that before.

You could sense that she needed it and

it was so powerful that you sensed it

that she drew it to herself.

Great charismatic individuals. John F.

Kennedy is someone who had a lot of

charisma. He came from a very bad

childhood, right? His father was very

mean to him, etc. Some children in the

worst circumstances it ends up bringing

the best out of them. They have to find

their way in life and some people who

have everything

don't go very far because they don't

know how to find things for themselves.

So life is weird. Some people who have

great childhoods do well. Some people

who have great childhoods are spoiled

and never learn how to get things on

their own. And some people who have the

shittiest childhoods learn how to be

resourceful and and and and and get what

they need on their own.

You mentioned seduction there, the art

of seduction. Why did you write a book

about the topic of seduction?

Seduction is an high form of power

because you make people feel pleasure.

You make them feel excited or interested

in you, and then their their resistance

to your ideas slowly lowers and you have

the ability to influence them and to

move them in the direction that you

want. If you yell at them, like how we

talked about your child and you tell

them, "Do this, do that." They they

resent it and for good reason.

But if you are subtler, if you're more

seductive in your approach, if you're

more indirect,

people will do what you want or or go in

your direction without ever even

realizing it. So, it was a subtheme in

The 48 Laws of Power.

And so, I was sort of interested in the

psychology of that and why some people

are good at it and some people are

awkward about it. So, when I finished

The 48 Laws of Power, I thought this

would be

a natural segue to the next book. What

are the

qualities of a great seducer?

Well, I like to distinguish between cold

seducers and warm seducers. A cold

seducer is something you don't want to

be.

That's the typical image that we might

have

of a male seducer, but even of a female

seducer like the great courtesans, etc.,

where they're just after money or the

men are just after sex.

That's not my ideal. My ideal

is kind of

a back and forth quality where it's not

domination. It's sort of like a game

that you're playing. It's like a mating

game. It's like a courtship ritual where

both part people are kind of seducing

each other. And so, what makes for a

great seducer is very simple. I can

summarize it very simply.

You are outer directed.

So,

when you meet somebody

for the first time or you're on a date

or whatever it is,

you're not having that internal

monologue going, "Does she like me or

does he like me? Am I dressed well? Am I

saying stupid things? What can I do to

impress them?" No,

you turn it off and you're

outer-directed and you're listening to

them and you're entering their spirit

and you're hearing them say things that

that give you idea of what they're

missing in life, of what they want, of

what their needs are, of what makes them

an individual.

You're absorbing it, you're entering

into their spirit, and then you can

reflect it back to them. You can give

them gifts, you can take them to places

that show that you're attentive to them.

Because if you look at how we are in our

day-to-day life,

normally people never pay us attention.

They're always so self-absorbed, they're

never thinking about us. They're The I

mean, the times where you get the sense

that people are actually interested in

who you are an individual is pretty

rare.

If you give that feeling to someone,

it's incredibly powerful because we all

want to be validated, we all want to be

recognized.

So, what the seducer

is not someone who's all worried about

him- him or herself and thinking they're

involved in the other person, they're

absorbed like a sponge inside their

psychology, inside their world.

A lot of this is, you know, very

applicable to romance and dating, etc.,

etc. It feels, for whatever reason, I

don't, you know, not necessarily

something I've read much about in your

work, but it feels like dating and

romance and relationships have become

much more complicated in the modern

world. That it's be- it's become much

more difficult to seduce

somebody. Um what is the What are the

attributes of someone then that is not

good at seducing?

Anti-seducer

has many qualities. I have a whole

chapter on the anti-seduce. I try and

define it.

Uh there there's several of them. I

can't I don't have them all memorized,

but one quality that's very

anti-seductive is preaching and

moralizing.

Is like telling people

"Oh, that's wrong what you just said."

or "Your politics are ugly." or "You're

not a really You're not really good at

this." or something or other.

Having a moral superiority, a sense of

sanctimonious sanctimony

in a realm which should be about

pleasure, which should be that kind of

equality, that kind of back and forth

dynamic, where you're asserting your

moral superiority is deeply, deeply

anti-seductive. The element of preaching

to people.

Not being generous.

And I mean not just with money. Money is

important.

But not just being generous with your

spirit. Right?

You want to be open. You want to give as

much as you can to the other person of

yourself, of your time, of your money,

of your energy, etc. So, being all kind

of crimped and I don't want to give. I

don't want to spend money. I want to

take you to the cheap place to eat. I

don't want to give you much time. Is

very, very anti-seductive.

When you were talking a second ago about

the person who goes on the date and

they're thinking about themselves and

what they, you know, what their hair

looks like or whatever else.

That spoke to

an insecure person.

Is insecurity a seductive quality or is

it a

anti-seductive quality? It is

anti-seductive. Now, there is a part of

weakness that is seductive.

So, I would say vulnerability is

seductive, but insecurity is

anti-seductive. And there's a big

difference. Why does vulnerability draw

people to you?

Because

the sense So, if I can define seduction

in in in in simple terms,

Um most of the time we are closed to the

influence of other people, particularly

now. We have these walls up because life

is harsh, people are coming at us with

their advertisements, with their pleas,

with their wanting money, with this and

the other, and we've all learned to be

very defensive, right? And seduction is

an openness, is the opposite of that.

And you felt it when you were a child

towards your parents, you felt very

vulnerable and open. And And there was

an element of your parents and how they

treated you that was very much like a

seduction, right? So, seduction is about

being open to the other person to the

extent where you can even fall in love,

you can fall under their spell. And the

sense of letting go of your ego, letting

go of your defensiveness, and letting

other another person enter your world is

being seduced. It requires

vulnerability.

If you meet the typical

um scenarios of a man

who's not vulnerable at all, he's so

powerful and in control and everything,

has no vulnerabilities, it's

frightening,

you know, for a woman. It could be very

frightening. Like this he's he's so

strong, he's so invulnerable that

there's something wrong about it. You

know, maybe he's a serial killer, maybe

he's got skeletons in his closet.

Something isn't right about that.

What What seduces you about a puppy,

about a child, about an animal is their

vulnerability.

It makes you want to hug them, it makes

you want to help them,

right? The sense which if you came upon

a

a tiger that's there and then that they

don't need that, well, that's not

seductive. I mean, on your screen it is,

but if they're there in your living

room, that's not seductive. But that

puppy is, right? Vulnerability, the

sense that somebody needs protection or

help brings out qualities in us that we

don't normally have that I think

allow for seduction. So, that is being

vulnerable. That is

I can be influenced by that other

person. I am open to the to their

spirit, right? That's being vulnerable.

The word vulnerable, I hate to sound

like a professor here, so excuse me, in

seduction comes from the the the root of

it means a wound. Volnus. So, you have a

wound inside of you and you need

healing. And the other person naturally

wants to help you, right? But being

insecure is the op means

I'm so self-absorbed, I'm so worried

about myself

that I can't get out of it.

And we've all had that experience. When

you meet somebody and they and you can

sense you can smell their insecurity in

them. I'm not judging them cuz we all

have insecurities.

It makes you feel insecure.

It makes you feel a little bit awkward.

Whereas if you meet someone who's not

like that, who's confident, etc., it

brings out that quality in you. So, if

you're on a date and there's someone

who's

you smell that kind of insecurity, it

makes you awkward and insecure. It

creates a kind of a problem. So, that

would be the difference between the two.

There's going to be a lot of people

listening to this that are single

and ready to mingle.

Um

what advice would you give them in terms

of

being great at dating? You've talked

about the importance of vulnerability

there and how that kind of forms

connection between humans in a very

innate way. What else is great dating

advice for the for the single people out

there? Well,

the thing is, okay, there's several

things. So, first of all, we live in a a

culture where people think you don't you

shouldn't have to put effort into

something like love and romance. You

should just be who you are, man. I don't

have to put on a role. I don't have to

play a game. That's manipulative, blah

blah blah

No, I'm sorry.

Love and romance is something that is

almost biological.

If you look at animals and mating

rituals, they're incredibly elaborate.

Seduction is a mating ritual. And so,

the worst thing you can feel is that

this person isn't putting any effort

into something.

Let's just say it's it's

it's from the woman's point of view.

This man,

he just shows up wearing jeans in his

usual sloppy outfit. He doesn't comb his

hair, etc. etc. etc.

He takes me to the pub for dinner on our

first date.

You know, he he he's not thinking about

me. He's not willing to put any effort

into it. If he's not willing to put any

effort into it,

what's it going to be like 3 months down

the line when he completely takes me for

granted, which is what happens in a

relationship? Am I not important enough?

Right? Whereas, the ability to have a

little bit of effort to think of it as

kind of theater and drama and that

there's nothing evil about it. So,

I'm going to dress nicely. I'm going to

it doesn't have to be fancy. Just that

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to put

some effort into how I look.

I'm going to take her to a place that

isn't is, you know, I'm not talking

about candle lights and roses and that

kind of crap.

It doesn't have You can be creative. It

can be somewhere that that's scuzzy,

that's on the wrong side of town, but

it's different and it's appealing to and

you put some thought into it. There's a

reason you're taking her there, right?

I have a friend who went on a date and

she came back from the date and was

complaining because the person that she

date went on that first date with

was using a took her to a spot where he

had an available valid discount code for

like two to one.

And and

Talk about anti-seduction. There you go.

Why is that anti-seductive? In that

case, one might say that male is being,

you know, economically savvy,

financially savvy.

They You know, if you're not able to let

go of your of your kind of tightness

when it comes to a woman, something's

wrong with you, man. Just let go. Spend

some extra money. Spend the extra 10

quid that you might need to spend on

taking you to someplace different. But,

it signals a kind of cheapness, and it's

not about money. It's about a cheapness

in your spirit.

Right? She's not worth,

you know, letting go. Okay,

maybe you don't have that much, but my

god, you have enough. It's not going to

like make If you're that poor, then

then, you know, okay, maybe. But,

probably not. You can afford it. Show

that you that that it it means something

to you.

Let Seduction is a language. It's not a

language of words. It's a language of

gestures that we're paying attention to.

We're paying attention to people's body

language. We're

paying attention to their actions, to

the things that they never say.

So, when you signal

that

discounts are so important to you that

even on the first date you have to have

a discount,

you're signaling that it's not There's

something tight about you in your

nature, and it's not very pleasant. I

From doing this podcast and speaking

about topics like love and sex and

dating and, you know, dating apps even,

one of the um

comments I saw quite frequently was from

young men who are struggling to seduce a

woman. Yeah.

Or or vice versa. Um

Specifically young men that, you know,

and then I read some stats. I think

Scott Galloway came on the podcast and

talked about how

I'm going to butcher these numbers, but

a staggering amount amount of men

haven't had sex in the young men haven't

had sex in the last 12 months. Um and

then I when I looked at the comment

section specifically on YouTube, I saw I

kind of saw that energy reflected where

it looked like young men in particular

were struggling to

seduce um a mate, a partner in the

modern world.

Is Do Do Is that real in your view? Is

there Is there something that has

changed in society? Has that always been

the case?

Um is there anything we can do if we're

we're a young man that's struggling in

the modern world because of the internet

and computers and this and dating apps

and

Well, a lot of it is, I'm afraid to say,

is internet porn.

Where you get the idea that, you know,

sex is something that should be very

easy and quick and that women should

have Look have that kind of

body and physique, etc., etc. And that

becomes your norm. So, that can be that

can be very damaging.

But the idea that things must come easy

and quick is is very prevalent.

And to win over someone like a Let's say

you're a man and it's a woman who might

be reluctant to have sex for good reason

or reluctant to have a relationship

requires some effort. It requires some

thinking. You can't just hack your You

can't just swipe and get it. You can You

can have your internet sex, but you're

not going to get that in real life. It

doesn't work that way. It takes time. It

takes patience. You know, and you're

going to have to work at and you're

going to be rejected.

Being with people is a skill. Being a

social animal

although there's a part that comes

naturally, if you spend all of your time

here, you're losing that skill of how to

respond to people's body language. You

know, half of the thing is you're

sitting in a bar opposite Let's say it's

a woman.

And how she crosses her legs, how she

sips her drink, how she looks at you,

how she touches her hair. She's

signaling things. It's a language, it's

a beautiful language.

Right?

You have to learn it, and you're not

going to learn it here because you

can't. You have to be in person, it has

to be skin to skin. You have to get a

feel for what other people are thinking

and feeling. And we're actually really,

really good at that. Humans have That's

what makes us human. It's called mirror

neurons. I can sense what's going on in

your mind. I can read your body

language.

You have to get out in the world, and

you have to be put yourself physically

out there and try and try and try and

have rejection.

And I know it sounds awful, but it is a

skill in a way where you're learning how

to like understand and deal with people

and and and and understand that what

they're who they are and get inside

their spirit. It takes time and effort

and patience. So, for young men,

you have to realize that, right? You If

you If you think everything has to be

easy and quick, it's never going to work

for you.

In the In the I talk about the actor,

the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn,

who was perhaps

numerically the greatest sedu- male

seducer ever because it's estimated that

he had seduced close to 3,000 women, and

he died when he was 50.

And if I I did the math one day, I go,

"What the How can that possibly be?"

Um

and I I tried to research what was his

secret, and it was hard to find out.

Finally, I found a book written by a

woman whom he had seduced, another

actress, and she said,

"He was so relaxed and so comfortable.

It was like being It was like an animal

type thing, and then when I would sit

with him, it was almost as if I had

drunk two martinis just sitting next to

him. His comfort and his security and

his confidence, his relaxed attitude, it

just made me drunk."

So,

feeling relaxed, feeling confident, and

not defensive, and comfortable with

yourself

is a very powerful seductive quality. I

mean, there are many of them, but that's

one that I would point out. Have you

ever figured out what builds confidence?

You Earlier on you were talking about

how children need to experience things

firsthand. You can't just tell them. You

can't just tell someone, for example, to

be confident. Preaching doesn't seem to

work.

What what is it in your view that

that does build that true or You also

can't fake confidence. No. I remember I

take We talked about rejection a second

ago. I was rejected by pretty much every

girl that I was pursuing between the

ages of of

16 and I'd say 22. Really? Yeah. Like

And I Do you know what it was? I I was

faking confidence. It all changed when I

was actually had a sense of security in

myself. All right. But in the period

where I was like faking confidence, I

was pretending I was confident. Um

it was like they could they just could

read past it. That's almost how I look

back on the situation. So, I came to

learn that you can't fake confidence.

You can't pretend to be it because

there's so many sort of micro

expressions that Yeah. that you that

look that end up reading more like

insecurity than confidence. Um

But what is real confidence and how does

one build it in your view? Well, you've

kind of answered your own question there

in a way. So, um

you know, can't fake confidence is like

bravado, right? And you're you're

putting on an act.

And particularly women who've had to

deal with this for,

you know, millennia,

they can smell it. They can sense it.

They don't have to It doesn't have to

It's not in your words. It's the body

language, etc., etc.

Real confidence comes from actual, um

actions, from your actual things you've

accomplished, right? So,

you know, when you're 22, 21, it's hard

to have that confidence because what is

it based on?

You know, maybe it's based

Okay, maybe you're you're really

good-looking if you happen to have that

good fortune and you can feel confident

about that and you don't have to try so

hard. All right, maybe that might work.

Or maybe you're really good at sports or

maybe you're a really good dancer or

you're a really great singer, but it's

based on something real. You have a

skill. You have something that separates

you. You have something that you can do

that you can accomplish.

Because when you're 21, it's hard to

have those. You know, I look back on

myself when I was that age. I had

nothing. No wonder I got rejected, you

know?

Um

So, it comes from what you do in life.

Okay? The The finest sense of confidence

is actually creating things and having

success and meeting goals and achieving

things and having a a record of that.

You know, and maybe what goes with that

is having a some money, but it's not

necessarily because you don't have to

have a lot of money and you don't have

to be good-looking to seduce. That's a

myth that I try to explode in The Art of

Seduction. Some of the greatest

seducers, male and female, were not

good-looking at all. It's about

psychology and it's about how you carry

yourself.

But the confidence comes from

actually what you can do,

not how you feel or what you say. Well,

it is how you feel, but the feeling is

based on things that you actually can

do, skills that you have that separate

you, that make you feel

really confident, you know?

So. Body language.

Yeah, I I find it fascinating that, you

know, there's quotes and things that say

80% of our communication is nonverbal,

etc., etc. And body language is so

interesting to me because again, I think

that's one of the things that it's just

impossibly hard to fake. I was reading,

you know, a couple of books on There was

a phase when I was, I don't know, 20,

probably just after being rejected all

the time, when I was maybe 22, where I

started reading books from pickup

artists. And they would obsess

on the topic of body language. And one

of the things they'd say is

and I try I was explaining this to my

girlfriend a couple of weeks ago

that when when a man is lower

confidence, when he's desperate, he does

this thing called pecking in a

nightclub, where he'll like lean in and

like shout in your ear. And when he's

higher confidence, he kind of leans out

and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in.

Small things like that, subtleties like

that, that intuitively we we're reading

and understanding and communicating and

etc. But someone that doesn't have the

confidence probably isn't even aware

that they do. So when I reflect on my

rejection phase, I think, "Gosh, my body

language must have been exuding

desperation and low status and low

value, low self-esteem."

What's your thoughts on body language

and

Well, in my last book Human Magnet I

wrote a whole chapter on it.

I you quoted the figure 95%, but who

knows what it really is.

The thing it is that we evolved for

hundreds of thousands of years before

language existed, right? And our

earliest ancestors depended on the group

for their survival and getting along.

And their powers came from observing

other people and their body language.

You could read it. So it's a skill

that's wired into us, wired into our

brains. It's a very unique skill that we

humans have. It's just that you don't

learn that. When you're a child, when

you're 2 years old, you have it cuz your

life depends on it.

You have to see what if your mother is

is loving you or is your father is kind

to you. Because if not, you know, you

could be abandoned. Your life depends on

it. You're great at reading that. And

children have are incredibly adept at

picking up body language. So if someone

is fake

if someone's an impostor they hate being

around children because children see

through you, you know, like you know,

like radar, right? Because they're so

attuned to it. You had that skill when

you were very young, but you lost it

because you became so oriented with

words and you became so self-absorbed

that you're not paying attention.

But it's extremely important, right? So,

the whole body is involved in it. So,

you've got to first stop thinking about

people's words so much because the one

thing about words, unfortunately, is

people can lie. They can say whatever

they want. They can say, "I love your

screenplay. That was fantastic. You were

great in that movie. I thought you were

great." etc. They can say anything to

please, to flatter, to cajole you. But

body language, man, it doesn't lie,

right? So, I talk in that book about the

eyes and the fake smile. The fake smile

is something you see every single day,

but you're not paying attention. It's

like

It's kind of tight, right? It's like

right? But a real smile,

your the whole face gets animated and

there's a little crinkly thing here as

your face as you as it lights up and

your eyes light up. It's It's hard to

even put into words, but it's there. You

can see it. It's real. It's not faked.

Knowing the difference between a fake

and a real smile is really important in

seduction, in business, or whatever. To

know if someone is like, "Yeah,

I like that idea." You know they don't

really. They're saying that to please

you. They actually hate your idea. You

master that language, you can start

deciphering all this people are

giving you.

The face, you can disguise it a little

bit. Actors know that. But you know what

you can't fake? It's your voice.

If you're nervous,

not even the finest actors in the world

can fake that. Your voice betrays so

many things about you. It betrays your

weakness. It betrays your lack of

confidence Or it betrays the other

quality, etc. Right? So, pay really

attention to the tone of people's

voices, to how fast they talk. People

who talk fast are very nervous.

Someone who's talk I know I'm probably

talking a little too fast here. Sorry.

Um my mind races, so I can do that.

Normally, I don't talk so fast.

But um

you know, you you talk slowly, you have

a certain tone, you have a certain

intonation that kind of reveals

confidence. Okay?

Body language, posture. You were talking

about pecking, right? When you go and

look at a meeting of people in in a

business meeting,

you'll see all the employees kind of

leaning forward, nervous, and you'll see

the boss kind of leaning back, arms

crossed like this, you know? I'm the

powerful one. You come to me. I'm the

leader. I'm the I'm the top dog or she,

it's a woman.

I don't need to be like this. I'm like

this. Body language reveals a lot about

leadership qualities, etc. etc. etc.

You know, if you go

you're at a party

and you come up to someone that you're

meeting for the first time, and they're

talking to you, and you notice that

their feet are angling away from you,

that means that they're not really

interested they're looking for any

moment to try and walk away and escape.

They're not really into you. Whereas

their feet are facing you, they're

engaged, they want to talk to you,

right?

This is a whole art you can learn, and

you can sit there and you can read it,

and I talk about I give the story in

Laws of Human Nature of a man named

Milton Erickson, the founder of NLP and

hypnotherapy, probably one of the most

brilliant psychologists who ever lived.

When Milton Erickson was 19 years old or

so, he had polio.

He nearly died. His entire body was

paralyzed. The only thing he could move,

the only muscle he can move are his

eyeballs. Now, imagine that. He was a

young man with a very active mind. He

can't talk. He can't do anything. All he

can do is move his eyeballs a little

bit.