Do you know a single person who would

treat their business the way that people

treat their relationships? The business

would be dead. Love is not a permanent

state of enthusiasm that just exists.

Why you shouting at me?

A stare pel, the most famous

relationship therapist on the planet,

podcaster,

bestselling author, and he had one of

the most head talks of all time.

In order to want sex, it needs to be

worth wanting. So when women don't want

sex, is it really that they have less

desire or is it that they don't have

desire for the sex they have? And this

fear of rejection is one of the most

important emotional vulnerabilities for

many men. It's part of what is so

alluring in porn, which takes care of

three major dilemmas around sex. The

first one is, and this leads to lying

and cheating.

Want to know how I avoid getting to that

place?

People end up in a rut because they're

so lazy, so complacent. If you give the

best of yourself at work and then you

bring the leftovers home, taking out

your phone and not present, slowly your

relationship degrades because the more

he refuses to be present, the more alone

she feels. And the more alone she feels,

the more she tests him to see if you're

really not there for me. It's a figure

eight loop. And whether it's money,

kids, sex, every topic could become part

of the loop. But the quality of your

life is determined by the quality of

your relationships. Without it, we die.

What do we do about it, though?

Well, this is one of the best things I

can offer to people is that

every now and then I meet someone on

this podcast that I classify as a wizard

or witch. And I say that because the

impact they have on me is so profound,

so life-changing, so pivoting in terms

of what I thought I knew

that I look at them like a witch or a

wizard. I just think, how does this

person seem to just know everything?

Esther Pel is one of those people. She's

magic. What she knows about

relationships, love, sex, and everything

in between will both blow your mind,

inspire you, and unlock a bunch of

answers that I think the vast majority

of us are currently looking for. I've

spent 10 years thinking that

relationships are slightly confusing.

They're a bit of a black box. I've

wondered why some people are needy and

others are anxious in relationships. Why

does some people in relationships run

away and others chase them? All of these

answers, these black boxes as it relates

to relationships, love, and sex, Esther

has the answer to. And I can't wait for

you to listen to this episode. It might

just change your life. And before this

episode begins, one favor to ask you.

You probably know what this favor is if

you listen to this podcast frequently.

If you hit the subscribe button on this

podcast, which roughly 58% of you have,

then I promise you we will do everything

in our power to make this show better

and better for you. That's the only

favor I'll ever ask you. Do we have a

deal? Thank you,

[Music]

Esther.

What is the mission you're on? You know,

we spoke before we started recording

about a plethora of different subjects

that you're innately curious about. If

you were to summarize all of those

subjects, what is Esther Pel's mission?

The quality of your life is determined

by the quality of your relationships.

And relationships are often not taken

very seriously as a subject of inquiry.

Why?

Because um in various worlds it has a

certain attitude, right? So in the

easiest one would be in the business

world, relationships have usually been

seen as soft skills, fluff, feminine

skills or feminine concerns. Feminine

concerns you can always hold in high

regard but then disregard in reality.

I think that for so long relationships

were structured,

organized through social order,

religion, communal structures and so

people didn't really have to think about

them so much. They were very very

codified. They still are codified in

most parts of the world. But in our

western world where we have dismantled

all the structures that used to define

relationships,

relationships are going through a

massive transformation, a massive

makeover and um and we don't necessarily

have the skills of how to deal with all

these changes that are literally

happening under our feet. So my mission

is to guide people to help people make

sense of what their relational lives are

about. friendship at work, romantic

relationships, family ties, and to

develop understandings, insights, skills

to be able to handle what is probably in

my mind one of the most important

dimensions of our life. Without it, we

die.

Without it, we die.

Mhm. Oh, we don't die a natural death

necessarily, but you it's a death to the

soul.

You a life without relationships.

I mean there are a few hermits but the

vast majority of us are socially wired.

We exist in relationships. We define

ourselves in relationships. I know who I

am by being with you. I mean who am I

outside of that? It's like you know it's

in the presence of the other that we

discover who we are alone. There's no

there's nothing to bounce off of. And so

I am passionate about the relational

lives of people, the challenges of

relationships in the modern world and as

we enter the 21st century and as

machines are entering to replace people.

I'm interested in how people heal from

broken relationships or from

relationships that broke them.

Um that's the mission. And you've spent

a long time working with people that

want better relationships in a

therapeutic sort of environment as a

therapist, right?

Yes. I I have been a psychotherapist

for more than 40 years.

I'm so compelled. I want to start where

we all start, which is with our

childhood and the role that plays in the

relationships we then go on to have or

not to have. I imagine most of the

couples and people you see you can

understand the way they are today as

adults based on what they experienced

when they were younger or what they

learned

a lot a lot.

But we are not just what happened to us.

We are also who we become.

And sometimes we become on the basis of

what happened to us. And when you ask

people sometimes, what are some of your

most important inner resources?

Those very resources come from some of

the miseries of their childhood too.

So it's not linear. It's not bad leads

to bad.

It's that some absence, some deprivation

can lead to an an acute awareness of

something that makes you become the

exact opposite. It's it's a dynamic

dialogue with your childhood. It's not

just the determinism

the the determinism that your childhood

will determine what's going to happen to

you later. I think that all of us, you

know, I mean this is one of there are

many many frameworks around childhood,

but the one that I wrote about in mating

in captivity was to say that we all need

security and we all also need adventure

or change or freedom. And that some of

us will come out of our childhood

wanting more safety, more protection,

more connection, more grounding. And

some of us will come out of our

childhood wanting more space, more

freedom, more individuality, more

personal expression.

And that doesn't mean it's static. I

mean, the beauty of us is that we are

forever changing creatures and we can

rewrite the story. We can't change the

story as it occurred to us, but we can

change its legacy, its meaning, its

influence in in the most extraordinary

ways.

I mean, how many people have you how

many couples have you sat with?

Thousands.

You must start to see patterns emerging

when you're when you know your two

couple a couple is sat there,

they've got some dysfunction in their

relationships.

The guy or the woman starts saying

describing their childhood and saying

their their parents were never around.

You must start to see some patterns in

how that caused dysfunction and causes

dysfunction later in life. Is there any

patterns that we can use as stereotypes

or hold on to with childhood separation

about

but I wouldn't even call them as

stereotypes. I think there are a lot of

patterns but the pattern is not just

what you bring from your childhood and

how it manifests now. The pattern is

what two people create. That's the

pattern. So a pattern could be okay

let's say I grew up and I felt that I

was left to fend for myself that all of

it was on me that I was taking care of

my younger siblings. I'm thinking of a

recent episode of the of Where Should We

Begin? And you know, when he's absent,

when he doesn't respond to a request,

she doesn't just think, "Oh, he doesn't

want to do what I just asked him to do."

She instantly goes into the, "I'm always

alone. There's never been anybody there

for me. I've always been alone. My life

is never going to change. Why is it

always me who has to do all of this? I

carry the burden." And the pattern is

what she asks that makes him react that

makes her amplify. And it's what I do

that makes you be and do what you do

that makes me be what I do. It's a

figure eight. That's the pattern. And

the more he refuses or to just do it,

let's say, and the more alone she feels

and the more alone she feels and the

more she tests him every time to see if

the next time she asks for something,

he's going to actually respond in kind.

And since he feels the pressure and the

test and he comes from a story that

says, "Nobody's going to tell me what to

do."

That's a dance. So couples have dances

and the dance is how you see one person

trigger or evoke in the other a survival

strategy. His survival strategy is

nobody tells me what to do. And that

survival strategy is going to then

trigger in her the vulnerability of well

if no if you won't do anything I asked

then I'm again alone. And then when that

person feels that alone, her survival

strategy is to go and knock at the door

and see, are you really not there for

me?

The dance between the vulnerability and

the survival strategy is one of the most

common patterns in a relationship. And

what's really essential to understand is

that

what makes the difference is the form.

It is figuring out what is this figure

eight look like in this couple. Not the

specific detail because once you've

noticed the loop,

it doesn't matter what they're talking

about. Every topic could become a part

of the loop. Whether it's money, kids,

sex, in-laws, trips,

it will look alike. If I always think

I'm alone and I can't count on you and I

feel le abandoned and let down, then

that becomes the filter with which I

enter most of these conversations. And

if your thing is nobody pushes me and

nobody imposes their will on me because

I, you know, have been telling my dad

for a long time that he's done being the

boss of me. This is the the filter. So

you look for those filters and then you

begin to see, you know, it's like music.

If you really listen to a sentence from

a music to a phrase, after the first

four notes, you have a good idea of what

are the next four notes.

Mhm.

That's how you do pattern recognition in

couples.

Me and my partner are going through

this. I think at the moment we've

figured out what our figure of eight,

our pattern is,

right? Tell me.

It's exactly what you just said.

Which one?

I'm the guy. She's the woman in the

scenario. So you're the nobody tells me

I'm the monster feels like everything's

threatening my independence,

you know, and my and I don't like to be

told what to do as in

and so you also interpret any request or

invitation as a command

as a threat on my independence.

It's a command which you have to push

back as an intrusion.

Yeah. Like the walls are closing in,

right? as a violation of your

and so you do this.

Yeah.

And when you do that, then

she

she goes comes she uh it's almost like

I'll give you an example. I'll be sat at

home after work. I've come home. It's

maybe 9:00 p.m. I'll quickly throw out

my laptop and I'm doing some work. Um

whatever. She says something to me and

because I'm kind of busy here, I give

like a half acknowledgement and because

I've like not turned away from the

laptop or because I've not given my full

attention, she'll then start like asking

me seemingly completely random questions

that she wouldn't or ordinarily ask me.

What do you think of this? Picking up

something random in the house. Um, what

what do you want to drink? There's

literally a cup of water already in

front of me.

And you know what that does, right? The

more the more.

So the more she starts doing it to me,

the more I can start giving the blunt

responses.

But what it means when you say the more

the more is that we make the other.

You are creating a knocker.

Yeah. Yeah.

And she's creating a withholder.

The more she knocks, the more you

withdraw or withhold. The more you

withdraw half attention. Uhhuh. you

know, artificial intimacy and the more

she experiences you as absent and she

comes looking for you in full force. And

what that says is that we create the

other person. We contribute to making

them the very thing we don't want.

If you wanted her to not do this, you

could change this in a minute.

How?

By basically stopping for a moment

saying this ritual of acknowledging each

other at the end of a long day means a

lot and actually doesn't just mean a lot

to her because you don't have to deal

with it because she makes sure that you

don't get forgotten.

If she would was not coming and she

didn't and she disappeared for six days

in a row and never came to check in with

you, you would begin to wonder what's

going on. So she holds the flame for

you.

Yeah. If you if you stopped actually and

it's 9:00, you've had your long deeds,

but you've been on your own, you've done

all your stuff, and you actually said,

"Come here." And you took literally 30

seconds for a beautiful kiss, a hug, a

gaze, a moment, and then you said, "I'll

be done in probably 20 minutes. I'm

excited to spend some time together."

You would relax her nervous system. She

would not be, you know, after you. and

you would actually feel like your

boundaries have been respected.

But what happens in a couple is that you

want her to change. You want her to stop

annoying you and do what you do. Doesn't

she see that I'm busy? I'm almost done.

You know, why doesn't she wait? And so,

we always think the other will change

and then my life will improve. But if

you actually want your life to change or

your relationship dynamic to change, you

could do it like this because you're the

one who is you and her, right? It's the

same. I would say the exact same thing

to her. By the way, this is so

symmetric. So I would say to her, if you

actually want him to not push you away,

here is what you can do. If you want her

to not keep knocking, then here is what

you can do. Because when you do what you

do, you are increasing her knocking.

I've noticed that

this is fundamental to couples thinking.

It says we are not essential creatures.

We become someone as part of the dynamic

that we are in with another someone.

This is when people begin to understand

that in couples therapy, things begin to

change. It's like a light bulb goes on.

I also really resonate with the sub

point you made that if she stopped

knocking, I'd be like, "What the hell's

going on?" And I' and I'd eventually end

up lonely and unhappy. And you're right,

she is carrying the um as you called it

like the flame for the relationship.

She's the pursuer. Yeah.

You're the distancer. Yeah.

And the distancer doesn't have to deal

with his feelings of longing or desire

for closeness because the other one is

holding up the quota.

Then why do we go do we go for people

that are are opposites in this regard?

No, you go for people who express the

part of you that you don't want to deal

with.

Okay. meaning you're telling me I'm the

person who who's from whom being

intruded upon violated my independence

my independence but we all have needs

for independence and we all have needs

for connection and dependence but those

you have outsourced on her

ah so we is

taking care of the feelings that you are

disavowing or the needs that you are

disavowing inside of you

as to why you felt vice versa

even my finger on top of it.

Was I?

No, I'm joking. I'm joking. No, it's But

it's so true.

Do do you understand 100%.

We outsource. It's not that we find

someone who's the opposite. is we find

it looks like it's the opposite but what

it really is is

we all have needs for that's what I was

saying for for the connection and for

the space of the independence we all

need both

we need home and we need journey we need

predictability and we need innovation we

need commitment and we need freedom we

we need both different degrees but we

need both what happens in a relationship

sometimes is that I assign to you. I

outsource to you the parts of my needs

that I am conflicted about and you are

more conflicted about your dependency

needs which are actually totally normal.

You're much more aware of your

independence needs. That's kind of your

persona and she may be exactly on the

opposite of that. It changes when people

begin to actually integrate the part

that the other one is playing. And this

realization that if she wasn't coming

after you, at some point you would

suddenly say, "Wow,

where is she?" That is basically the

giveaway.

And I know I know this in our

relationship. I think, God, is she cuz

when I'm over here, I'm over here in New

York at the moment and she's in London

doing her retreats and stuff. She's got

like a breath work.com. A breath work

retreat she does. And when she's not

here, not around me, I fall into

I can miss her better.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

And also, I fall into really like

I'd say bad

balance habits. I'm out of balance in my

life. I'm I go all in on independence

and work. Right. But when she I've

always referred to her, she's like a

counterbalance in my life because she's

the one that says, "No, we need to go to

the beach for 2 hours.

I would never do that on my own in

valition."

And and I appreciate it so deeply

because I go, "I know what my life looks

like when you're not around." And it is

a unsustainable life. And they often say

opposites attract. I think she's she's

Do you tell her so by the way?

Which part? of how much she balances

you, how appreciative you are of it, how

much you rely on her for that, how out

of kilter you would be when if she

wasn't doing so. Do you actually

acknowledge that

and show her the appreciation for it? Or

is 90% of your speech to her the the

part of the I need my time, my

independence, my this, my that?

It's a very good question. Um,

I would say I don't tell her enough. And

at the same time, if it's possible,

maybe this is a mistake, that she knows.

And I say she knows for two reasons.

Reason one is because there are moments

where I express that gratitude to her.

And number two is because I'm so open

about it in terms of like publicly,

which isn't always the best way to

communicate with someone. Don't tell me

off, but I'm so open about it on this

podcast. talk about and she listens to

it and she listens to it and she she's a

big fan of yours as well and but you're

right in the moment in the heat of the

moment I'm all about defense so I'm like

I can descend into blame a little bit

too much you know

you know I once I I often like to ask

people you know what's the one thing I

said that that stayed with you that made

a difference and um it was a situation

where a person basically was talking

about how um

when they are late, when they miss an

appointment, when they miss an activity

that the couple had agreed upon or a

game of the children or whatever it was,

you know that they make a point of

apologizing.

And I said to them, you know,

if you're still at the computer at 10:00

and you know, and you're apologizing,

that's you consider that being

considerate. I'm aware and I'm

apologizing. But when you apologize

about your absence, what you missed,

what you didn't do, you're basically

still saying, "I'm super important. I'm

that important, but I couldn't be

there." But if you actually said, "I'm

so thankful

that you're here because I could not

have stayed at the office late. I could

not have gone to that last minute

dinner. I could not have gone and so

seen so and so if you were not here."

And instead of apologizing you thank

then you are actually saying I couldn't

do this without you which means I am an

independent person who is completely

interdependent with you

and that interdependence

is the part that the independent person

is struggling with

it's whatever you are doing and this is

when you said she balances me she tells

me let's go to the be whatever you are

doing is bolstered by someone who is

making this possible for you. And that

acknowledgement, it's not just to be

nice and to say thank you. It humbles

you. It says, "I could not do this

without you."

That gives the other person not a sense

that they are superfluous or intrusive

or annoying or choosing the wrong

moment, but that they matter,

that they have a presence and a meaning

in your life. And that is a secret to a

connection.

Making the other person know that they

matter and have meaning in my life.

Yeah. I couldn't do it without you.

I'm having a huge day at business or a

huge day at work and I can do this and I

can stay late and because whatever

you've taken care of 10 different things

that would make it possible for me to

have my mind completely focused. I'm

here I'm with a stair pel you know I'm

talking or whoever all the other guests

are and I can do that because there's

someone there that has taken care of all

of the stuff I don't have to worry

about. And when you acknowledge that and

you thank a person for that, you're

basically saying, "I couldn't do this if

you didn't do that." That's the

interdependence.

Our relationships, you know, I think we

all certainly I think I have for much of

my life. And I say that because I look

at my actions. So what I might say is

different to how I think I've behaved

over the last I don't know 10 10 15

years. We see them as kind of an

afterthought to everything else in many

regards. So, the amount of effort I put

into my businesses and to the podcast

and to every little detail, the

creativity, the thought, the

brainstorming, all of that

relationships, we kind of all just think

they're just they just happen. And if it

doesn't happen perfectly, then it's

broken and I need to find a new one.

Yeah, that's a terrible way to think. I

mean, and everybody knows it. If you

give the best of yourself at work, if

you bring the leftovers home, if when

you come home you say, "I've given

everything I had. Now I'm just putting

my feet on the table. I just need to

chill. I don't want to make any effort."

You know, slowly your relationship

degrades. Period. And then there's all

kinds of ways it ends. None of them are

particularly joyful. And um basically if

people were able to put a little bit of

creativity, attention, attention

into their relationships as they do with

their customers or their guests,

relationships would be doing a lot

better and my profession would be seeing

a lot less people. I mean there's no

doubt.

And why are people so lazy, so

complacent, so unimaginative

with their relationships at home? I

mean, I see so many people when you like

here, you know, you're not taking out

your phone. You're not you're looking at

me, you're paying attention on occasion,

you look for your questions and where we

go, but basically you're you're with me.

But at home, you're if you do this or

this,

looking at my phone,

you know, um and and then when the

person tells you something really

important, you go, "Uh-huh."

Uh-huh. You know, and you're kind of

there but not present. And that's the

beginning of a kind of modern loneliness

actually is that this idea that you can

share something really important to

someone who is half there. Half there.

And I think that that's what's happening

with a lot of younger people these days

is that they experience a lot of half

dareness.

And that begins to cultivate a real

sense of loneliness that has to do not

with I'm physically alone. That has to

do with do I matter? Who hears me? Who

cares? Who pays attention? Who notices?

You know

I I

sometimes the advice is very banal, you

know. It's to tell people, "Put your

freaking phone down. Take an hour and

put your phone down and

but I'm busy."

Huh?

But I'm busy.

Well,

that you will be busy and there won't be

a relationship. Sooner or later, there

won't be a relationship. It's not

difficult. You can wait. You can wait

for the kids to grow up if there are

kids involved things. But in the end, it

it there isn't

just because someone was on their phone.

Well, it's not just the on the phone.

It's on the phone means I am

continuously saying something is more

important than you. We come last. We're

a cactus. We don't need to be watered.

We can survive in a desert.

It's called There's a term I've been

using for this that is I borrow from

something else. It's called ambiguous

loss. Have you ever heard of this term?

Ambiguous loss.

Yeah.

No.

Ambiguous loss is a term that was

developed by a colleague Pauline Boss.

wonderful psychologist when she talked

about what happens when you have some a

parent for example that has Alzheimer

they are physically present but they are

psychologically gone they're emotionally

absent and you can't really mourn them

because they're still physically there

but you're caught in this in between in

this ambiguous loss on the other side

you can have somebody who is deployed

hostage

miscarriage. They are emotionally very

present, but they are physically absent.

In both cases, it's an ambiguous loss.

You can't Are they still there or are

they gone? Who knows? When we live with

this phone thing when we are because

you've been at work, you've been at the

computer, you come home, you think, "Ah,

I'm so happy to finally let go of the

computer." Do you turn on the TV? You

turn on the TV and then you turn on the

phone at the same time. You're watching

here, you're watching there, and there's

a person next to you. And most likely

they often do the same thing in the end,

too. And gradually, you know, there is

less and less of a thread of

conversation, of connection, of joy, of

sex, of intimacy, all of what you know,

that becomes ambiguous loss. Somebody is

there, but they're not really present.

I'm I'm a I'm you know do I is there any

difference between me and the sofa?

It's comfy. It's routine. You sit on me.

But comfy and routine does do not give

us joy or meaning

or relevance

or connection. And that's what we still

seem to want. So it means saying to

people, you know, it's actually not very

very complicated.

What did people do for so centuries?

They took walks.

That's one of the few times you can't

click.

So take a walk. Don't sit. Don't try to

do, you know, take a walk around the

block and just be in motion. Then you're

parallel. You know, it's not face to

face. It's side by side. And you be then

you can talk about the day if you

instead of just saying stop stop stop

stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop

stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop

stop stop stop you just said you know

let's go for a walk it's London but

still you can you can you know and let

you do half an hour walk it will

you'll come back to me and you tell me

what it will do but it it's amazing how

these small interventions that are

playful creative not digging

change the dynamic of the relationship

ship because she is only pursuing you

in part because of how much you are

withdrawing.

You change, she change. If you want to

change the other, change yourself.

Once you understood the figure eight and

how we create the other, you understand

that if you do something else, sooner or

later they do something else, too. So,

if you want to change the other, change

you.

This is part of the question you asked

me right what are some of the essentials

understandings of working with

relational systems. This is true at work

in companies. This is true in intimate

relationship. This is not just for

romantic love. This is foundations of

relational systems

feedback loop it's called in

cybernetics.

So many busy couples can feel the

spark in their relationship waning away

slowly. But

work isn't necessarily the first place

you look. Like pulling out the phone at

dinner isn't necessarily the place

people look because that seems so small.

So they aim at bigger things. They'll

say, I don't know, something bigger. But

do you believe are you saying that you

believe a lot of it much of it often

starts with those small moments of

disconnection where the person basically

ends up becoming the sofa?

The governments call them bids for

connection.

Bids for connection.

Bids.

You know, it's the little things. It's

the the difference between turning

towards someone or turning away. You

know, when you read something, there's a

classic example they give. Do you read

something? Do you actually say, "Hey,

did you read this? Let me send you this

article."

That's a bid for connection. It's not a

big declaration, but it says, "We're in

this together." When I see something

that's interesting that I think you

would like to read as well, I share it

with I'm thinking of you. I know you

exist even if I'm not with you.

Do you know what my partner said to me

something about a year ago and I it

always stayed with me because I thought

that's such a strange thing to say. She

said to me when we were in conflict

resolution, so we were talking about

things. Um she said, "Do you know when I

send you things on Instagram in

Instagram DMs? Like I'll be out here now

in New York." So she'll she'll if she

sees something interesting on Instagram,

she sends it to me.

She goes, "You've stopped acknowledging

it." I used to just like double tap on

it or make a comment back. She goes,

"You've stopped. You stopped

acknowledging it."

And I thought, "Why does that matter?

Why does it like you send me something,

I watch the funny video, I crack on with

my day?"

Because it's like when you receive a

birthday gift, do you think?

Yeah.

When you buy a birthday gift, is it

important to give it?

Yeah.

Okay, that's reason.

I mean,

how would she know that you watched it

if there is no acknowledgement? And the

acknowledgement is not about the video

or the DM. The acknowledgement is we

share something.

Well, it's even worse because it says

seen on Instagram. So, it says that I've

seen it.

Yes. But I but the but the scene that

means that I have seen the video. The

acknowledgment is we are in we are part

of a thread. We're connected. She's

absolutely right. So in that sense when

you people lose the spark it is a lot of

these small details that people say so

much in the beginning you know all the

positive stuff that people lose and it

it's it's actually only more important

with time rather than less important

with time. The the death of a

relationship is when people take each

other for granted. And when you stop

acknowledging those things, it is part

of the mechanisms of taking for granted.

I had a really good friend of mine um

sit with me a couple of weeks ago and

she has been married to a CEO. She's

also a CEO herself and she's just going

through a divorce now. And I sat with

her in America and she said to me, you

know, he was very busy. I was very busy.

We had this kid and I just think I don't

I don't really know what happened along

the way. It just seems like we fell out

of love. And ever since she said that to

me, it made me think that it is often

quite a gradual process, this drifting

apart. And this kid coming into the

picture as well complicates that. What

she said to me was, you know, we we were

both had our businesses to take care of

and then we had the kid as well. So, the

relationship was, I guess, the residual

beneficiary. It got whatever was left

and that's caused this divorce now and

the child is, I guess, going to have to

live in two different homes.

So, I have two two thoughts about this.

You know, the first thing is um this is

the first time in history that the

survival of the family depends on the

happiness of the couple.

If the couple doesn't nurture itself,

there is no family. You don't stay

married because you have to. Women have

an economic independence like in her

case at least to be able to leave. You

have divorce laws. You can go. So the

only thing that holds the couple

together, you don't get excommunicated.

None of it is the relationship quality.

If you don't have that, there is no

family. Here's your child. And the

second thing is when she says we just

fell out of love, that's not the way it

goes. Love is a verb and you conjugate

it actively in many tenses.

It's a practice. If you stop doing all

those things that you're telling me, the

acknowledgements, the the the hellos,

the thank yous, the um the sharing of

the of the of the the videos, etc. All

of that cushioning when that thins out

it means that you have not been

conjugating the verb. Love is not a

permanent state of enthusiasm that just

exists. Do you know a single person who

would treat their business the way that

some people treat their relationships?

The business would be dead.

This is the and every and and you know I

say it with kind of emphatically but I'm

thinking I'm not saying anything

somebody doesn't know. You have you to

take that kind of lazy attitude towards

your shop.

End of story

and therefore end of relationship. But

it's not that it just happened. It's

that they stopped doing, saying,

expressing, showing, feeling, giving,

receiving, sharing. Those are the verbs.

Wanting, imagining, playing,

experiencing, exploring. Those are verbs

that have to do with relationships and

love.

On that first point about this is being

the first time in history where the

health and happiness of the relationship

determined whether the family stayed

together, not the church or some some

other external pressure.

Could this go to explain why people are

having less and less kids as well

because they don't feel as secure as

they once did? I think this a little bit

about my rel because with my partner I

feel like she's said or indirectly said

that she will be she'll feel happy and

safe to have a child when she feels like

more secure in the relationship

and you know imagine once upon a time

the sec you just knew that you were

going to stay with them regardless

and you also knew that if you had sex

you had a good chance of being pregnant.

True. Yeah. That's the first and

foremost big change that took place. So,

and sex was mostly a woman's marital

duty not that long ago. So you know um I

think that

many people the lesser they have the

more children they have because children

becomes an expression of abundance of

care of more hands to help of the riches

of a family. Um people who have less

food have more children.

It's not people who are more insecure or

live in more precarious situations. I

don't think that that is the reason. I

think that there is a certain kind of um

attitude towards not wanting to give up

the comforts of one's life,

the freedom, the comingings and goings

that makes some people not want to have

children. And then there's also the fact

that for a long time you didn't have a

choice. And some people today want to

exercise that choice, you know, but

you're talking about

the love that goes and you asked me

before, you know, one of the subjects

that I'm very interested in in light of

that is conflict. And I called the

course that I just created turning

conflict into connection

because it's easy

to look at your situation and then begin

to see the strife and the arguments and

the bickering and the conflict and to

focus on the conflict. But this conflict

is occurring because there is a fraught

connection. There's a tear in the fabric

of connection.

And that too, if you say to people,

would you run a business that allowed

for that kind of conflict and bickering

to take place? Nobody.

And and yet you normalize it in your

relationship. You think that that's

that's an okay thing. It's like I mean

if I gave you an assignment at the end

of our convers I would say of all the

things we talked about I I would love

for you to choose three things that

you're going to do differently change

and that you know would improve the

relationship. You don't have to go look

very far. You've already listed the half

a dozen and and then you stay with it.

You you you commit yourself to it. You

don't do it contingent on what she does.

You don't say I didn't and she still did

the same. Give it a time and hold

yourself to it. You will see

relationship is not something that

happens out there. It's actually

something that we are very much in

charge of creatively like a business.

And by the way, a business is made up of

relationships as well. Products but

relationships. Leadership is

relationships. It's vision. It's

efficiencies etc. It's operations but it

is also relationships. If those don't

work, you can have the best product.

If I want to be a master in conflict

resolution in my romantic relationships,

man and woman, let's just use that.

Two men, two women, two men, everybody.

Is there any differences between between

the way that genders typically approach

conflict resolution?

Because there's stereotypes, right, that

men don't want to talk and that women

want to talk.

Yes. But when you have two women,

there's often one that doesn't want to

talk as well. Okay.

I think there is gender, there is

culture, there is linguistics, there's a

lot of different things that play

themselves out, but it's not in straight

couples you will attribute certain

things to gender that in other couples

you will attribute to roles.

Okay?

Because the behaviors are not that

different. So we there's a whole um I

think one of the most important thing is

that

instead of asking what are we fighting

about

ask yourself what are we fighting for

like when you go into the bickering

around you know you see I'm busy why are

you bringing up all these stupid

questions now that you what are you

fighting for What she's fighting for is

to connect, to have some time with you,

to have attention, to to not just kind

of go through the day, do everything,

and let this thing kind of die on the

vine.

You know, there are relationships that

are not dead, and there are

relationships that are alive.

Tell me the distinction.

Same as a business. Well, you can be,

you can survive, or you can thrive. You

can survive and go through the motions

or you can be alive, erotic, radiant,

vibrant, vital, creative, curious.

It's those experiences, you know, now we

use eroticism in as a life force, not

just in the sexual sense of the word.

That aliveness

gives you energy for a lot of things

that you do elsewhere.

You would not be here the same way if

she wasn't there.

And

how do you cultivate aliveness? How do

you cultivate the erotic is essential.

So when I say to people, what are you

fighting for? Usually people fight for

about three things. They fight for

trust.

They fight to feel like the the other

person has their back. They fight for

recognition to be valued and they fight

for control. They want to feel that

their needs, their beliefs, their

expectations have priority, too.

Control, trust, recognition. Those are

probably three of the main things people

fight for. But it doesn't look like

that. it looks like they're fighting

over, you know, money or time together

or how often they have sex or, you know,

that kind of stuff. So, that's a big one

about how you deal with conflict. What

is productive conflict and what is

destructive conflict? Because conflict

in itself is intrinsic to all

relationships. People fight. People want

to have equity. They want to have

justice. They want to be heard. They

want to, you know, so it's a useful

thing.

But we all know what fighting looks like

that is not useful

and that is destructive and that harms

you and that you've seen when you are a

kid and that troubles with you for the

rest of your life. So we we know all of

those versions too.

Um and I think that these days we live

in a society that is also more and more

conflict avoidant. We really don't know

how to we have so less much less face to

face with other people.

There's a question that I have loved

asking recently that has to do with

conflict. When you grew up, did you play

freely on the street?

Yeah.

Okay.

Do you know do you don't have kids,

right?

No.

But you have friends with little ones.

Yeah. My my brother has three kids. He's

under the He's only one year older than

me as well.

All right. How much do his kids pay free

play freely on the street?

Um, they don't play freely on the

street.

So, to me, this little piece of

information

is so important because what happens

when you played freely on the street?

You had uncchoreographed, unmonitored,

unscripted free play with other kids

with whom you learned friction, rubbing,

fighting, making up, competing,

collaborating, being jealous, making

alliances, breaking alliances,

recreating. You learned a ton of social

skills and dealing with conflict and

disagreement and reuniting and all of

that. this entire universe of

experimentation that children had gone

and you really don't learn it by playing

games on a screen.

So we find ourselves a little bit

socially atrophied. Then comes a

pandemic and comes the virtualization of

our lives. There's a lot of things come

come coming together here and we are

more and more unable to deal with

conflict and we polarize. People keep

telling you how do you stay connected

with people who disagree with you who

have different points of view, different

politics, different belief systems etc.

So we are conflict avoidant, we lack the

social skills, we are socially atrophied

and we polarize.

And what's the cure?

I mean, I think that a major piece of it

is um and I hope Alpha Generation is

actually showing us a little more of

that is, you know, close the screen and

go outside and play and meet people in

real

in whatever version two groups, sports,

no sports, but it's about it's not about

structure activities. It's about the

happen stance, serendipity, chance.

Chance is an essential piece of our

life. Why is this so important? Because

if everything is controlled, everything

is predictable, every technology is

trying to give you a polished,

friction-free

answer to every problem that you have,

you learn to not tolerate uncertainty.

And if you can't tolerate uncertainty,

you become increasingly more anxious.

And if you become increasingly more

anxious, we're going to talk about the

mental health crisis. And this mental

health crisis doesn't come from nowhere.

It's connected to a whole bunch of

things that are happening in the world

around us. Let your kids go and have

sleepovers.

Connect with other people. Don't just

stay in your little nuclear system.

Are younger generations less resilient

in your view because they didn't get to

play on the street? They are definitely

less able to deal with um

with disagreement, divergences of

opinions, conflict. They polarize, but

so do other pe older people too. There

is definitely more polarization because

it but what they do show is

a lot increased levels of anxiety

um increased levels of all kinds of

other symptomatologies of around mental

health from eating disorders you you

name it that start earlier and earlier

difficulty experimenting making mistakes

not being so perfectionistic not

attributing everything to themselves as

I'm not enough I'm not enough there's

the whole manufactured insecurity going

on. So those things, yes, I think that

you notice it. We notice it, parents

notice it, teachers notice it. You know,

do I I think we could say that there is

less resilience, but I I think that

that's a dangerous statement because

there are plenty of kids who are

extraordinary resilient in very very

challenging circumstances.

I would not want to say younger kids

these days, you know.

But I do think that they struggle with

certain things.

Uncertainty is essential.

You can't innovate without uncertainty.

Without an appetite for it.

Yes.

Yeah.

You need to be able to take risks. You

need to be able to take chances. You

need to be able to try out certain

things. If it instantly becomes, you

know, I'm afraid to fail. I cannot. I

have to know before I even try. I have

to know in advance, etc., etc. We it it

doesn't just affect one individual.

Why did you write this book mating in

captivity? You could have written about

anything but for some reason you felt

compelled enough to take on this subject

of unlocking erotic intelligence. Why?

Why did you write about this

at the time? This book is 17 years ago.

It still lives as if it was yesterday.

Um, I guess that that means it touched

something that had a timelessness to it,

which was really how do we reconcile

the two sets of fundamental human needs

that we have never wanted to reconcile

in one relationship? Our need for

security, safety, predictability,

dependability, and our need for freedom,

exploration, change, risk. They have

traditionally they come from different

sources. They pull us in different

directions and we've rarely really

wanted them to be in one relationship.

Today we want a passionate marriage

or a passionate you know relationship

and those two things have never had to

because they they demand different

ingredients.

So I was very interested in that. What

does it mean that romantic love has

promised us that there is one

relationship in which we can have all of

that?

That was one really reason I was

interested in writing this book because

I thought this is, you know, we used to

have religion to experience belonging

and continuity and identity. And then we

had family for security and economic

support and children and social status.

But now we want the partner to be a best

friend and a trusted confidant and a

passionate lover. And on top of it, I

want you to help me become the best

version of myself. And I'm going to

start calling you a soulmate. Soulmate

used to be the realm of the divine, not

a person. So this is an incredible thing

if we've never expected more from one

relationship and asked one person to

give us what usually an entire village

used to provide. That interested me.

So something must be broken there.

I mean it's just an incredible shift.

It's a unique thing. It's an it's a

grand experiment in our in our life. And

then the third part was sexual. You

know, sexuality went through major

transformations. It went from duty to

desire. It went from, you know, being

inexcraably linked to children to being

now, I mean, if you only have two kids,

you have sex for the long haul for

pleasure and connection. There's no

other reason. So, what does that look

like? And why do people always say that

sexual problems are the consequence of

relationship problems, which is

sometimes true, but in many instances,

sex and intimacy, they are they are a

parallel process. They're not just a

metaphor of each other. And so I thought

I've seen many couples improve their

relationship and it did nothing for the

sex. But I've seen couples who when the

sexuality changes between them, it

transforms the relationship. And so that

demands a deeper understanding of what

is sexuality not what do you do you know

and how often do you do it and how hard

and how often and how how many I mean

the measurable stuff that is you know

sex has had become this thing that you

measure rather than you know where do

you go

inside of you with another what is the

experience like you know what is the

meaning of sex not what is the frequency

of sex and all these questions had not

been discussed much, certainly not in

the field of couples therapy and not in

in the general culture at large. And to

explain that dilemma seemed to have been

something that till today people found

really

there's no an answer by the way. There's

a there's no answer.

No, the book tells you that because

relationship issues are not binaries.

They're not black and white. They're not

problems that you solve. There are

paradoxes that you manage.

The strength of the book is that it

didn't have an answer. The strength of

the book is that it told you you have to

learn to live with some of these

contradictions.

People don't want to hear that. People

want people want to know the two steps

to fix their sexless relationship in 60

seconds.

Yeah. Well, they can they won't find

that with me, but they keep finding

something else with me. See, you want

your freedom. You want your travels. You

want to be here. You want to do your

podcast. You want to do the stuff that

is interesting to you. But you also want

your girlfriend.

You do want both. And you're looking for

how how do I not bring all my passion,

all my energy, my creativity, my erotic

charge, my imagination, my curiosity,

everything to this part of my life. And

I let that other thing dry up. And once

you will find that not it's not so much

a balance it's really you know um a

distribution of your resources you will

experience a very different level of

satisfaction in your life because you

won't half the time be guilty

when you look back through different

cultures then is that true?

Yeah of course it's true because you

said it. So of course it's true.

Not because I said it.

No it's true because everything you say

is true.

Oh no no absolutely not. I'm sound very

confident, but I actually never think

I'm right.

No, but I think you're right. That's

what I'm saying. Um, on this

contradiction point about us expecting

everything from one person,

are you telling me that we just kind of

have to live with the contradiction that

that creates? Because you're right, we

want spontaneity and excitement and you

know all of these kind of erotic

fantasies, but at the same time we want

safety and belonging and familiarity

which seem like a contradiction. Is it

is is it that we just have to live with

the contradiction or are we meant to be

polygamous

and

a bit more I don't know reckless and

have lots of different partners and you

know like some of the people used to

have throughout history and some people

have in different religions

I think it's two separate questions what

yeah one of them is about monogamy and

the other one's about

yeah well

the other one is about how you keep a

relationship ship alive and um that's

that I think we have somewhat addressed

right um it involves doing more things

you the contradiction is

when you stand you know if you really

want to stand it's actually about

constantly moving the weight from one

side to another it's not about

neutralizing the two polarities it's

about playing with these polarities so

there are times of the day or times of

the year or times in your life when you

know you want to bundle and then there

are times when you want to explore and

play and be be creative and curious and

do unusual things so I don't think that

it is inherently impossible to do it in

relation but it demands activity look

every system every relational system

every company straddles stability and

change continuity and innovation if you

don't change, you fossilize and you die.

So will your relationship, so will your

company. If you change all the time and

you're running, spinning, spinning,

spinning, spinning, you will disregulate

and you will be chaotic and you will be

exhausted and you will forget what

you're even running towards. So nature

knows that we continuously straddle

these two polarities. That's what I call

the contradiction, you know. But

monogamy is a different question about

that. It's it has to do with what do we

think are the viable relational

arrangements at this moment?

For whom is this a model that appeals

and um and it has opened up a whole

vista about what does consensual non-

monogamy look like or what does

polyamory look like? for whom is this,

you know, an expression of liberation

and and for whom is this actually rather

torturous? And it's and I think the what

it says to us is that you can't have a

one-sizefits-all. And when it comes to

love relationships, we have usually not

been the most innovative. You know,

family models have changed, but couple

models haven't changed that much.

Romantic. Romantics and realists.

Yes.

You discussed this in chapter one of

your book.

How do you define a romantic?

Romantics are aspirational.

Romantics are live in the realm of the

imagination. They live in the realm of

how do you transcend the limits?

How do you project yourself outside of

the narrowness of your own reality,

boundaries, consciousness, body, etc.

When I say aspirational, idealistic,

um, longing, yearning,

discovery, exploration, unknown, a kind

of an active engagement with the unknown

and and a and a reverence for the

connection. Realists

are more pragmatic. Realists un you know

are basically you know instead of this

is not possible

there must be more they say this is fine

as is. Why should there be more

and um this is a conversation I just

used these two terms because they were

handy. It's not because I had entire

definitions of them but I understood

that in relationship you often have one

person who says why you always want more

and then one person who says but there

is so many possibilities and then the

other person says yes but so many

minefields or landmines.

Do you see a gender difference between

those two? No. typically at all.

No, no,

I think that what makes the gender

difference is the dynamic

as well. I mean um no I I I I refuse to

just

make it a a man women because I see the

dynamic in all couples and there it's

less defined around gender and more

defined around childhood story or or or

gender identification in the broad sense

of the I no

I I mean yes in the you know the classic

old line that you could see in in a

heterocoup is when mister says but it's

like so that is cliche you know

everything's fine and if she was fine

everything would be fine

is speaking a man's strength though

is what

speaking

communicating

about how they feel

is that a strength that

depends how it's said

you know because people think of um

intimacy as verbal communication often

it's one of the things I saw in chapter

three of your book that we

So here's the

I don't buy the thing that men talk

less.

I do think that yes, men are often

uh emptied out from the vocabulary of

emotions by age seven. It's like

siphoned out of them. The socialization

of boys does not really prioritize

an an active engagement with one's

emotional life and one's interiority.

Okay? It's much better to be stoic, to

be fearless, to be competitive, to be,

you know, those kind of values are more.

But when I sit alone with men, it's not

because they don't have a vocabulary

that they don't have the feelings.

And I've been a therapist of many men

for decades for it was actually

something I actively sought. And when

you take your time and you listen and

you support the the expression, things

will come out. and they when they come

out. Here's the thing. When a woman

talks to you many times, you know that

she's already said that to somebody else

that which doesn't diminish it. But when

a man talks to you, you know that he's

hearing himself for the first time

himself. But that's not because that's

what men are. That's because that's what

we make men to be. That's how we

socialize men.

Um, I think that this notion that women

want more connection. Look, you were

asking me about sex before. I think

every gender has been given license to

what needs they're allowed to have

publicly and officially and in what

language they're entitled to talk about

them. So men will not necessarily talk

about the need for tenderness,

connection, care, uh intimacy,

um holding

um be because that is not the vocabulary

that has been assigned to them. So they

will talk about it in the language of

sex.

Women have basically not been given the

license to say what they want sexually.

That is really not what they have been

educated to develop. So they have

learned that they are allowed to speak

about relational needs and wrapped in

their relational needs are all kinds of

other longings for sexual intimacy, for

seduction, for pleasure, for connection.

Every gender is allowed to ask for the

same things but in a different

vocabulary. Men are allowed to talk

about sex. Women are allowed to talk

about intimacy.

But that's not the fact that is not the

same as saying men and women want other

things. Actually, they are more similar

than we think they are. And all research

supports that.

But it's just the socialization is

causing

a different a different uh effect.

Like we like to think that, you know,

men's sexuality, it's autonomous, it's

unprompted, it's spontaneous, they don't

need anything. They're always ready.

They're always looking for an outlet,

you know, as and that, you know, men are

creatures of nature and women are

creatures of meaning. Whereas for her,

it's the context, it's the quality of

the relationship, it's the that elicits

the desire, etc., etc. I mean seriously

on what basis are we saying things like

this? I mean you want to know men have

an a range of very deep emotions that

completely affect how they experience

sex.

You know the rise in um feminism and

equality of the genders in every regard.

Do do you think that has had

implications for

relationships and specifically sex in a

way that you've seen over the last

decade?

Cuz you've been working with thousands

of couples over the last couple of

decades. So, is there any way that

feminism or gender equality has

influenced

sexual dynamics?

I'll tell you why I asked it because one

of the chap chapters in your book from

you know was it 17 years ago or

something talks about how some of

America's best features the belief of

democracy, equality, consensus building,

um compromise, fairness and mutual

tolerance can when carried too

bunctiliously.

I'm so glad you knew what word you'd

written because I had no idea how to say

that word into the bedroom result in

very boring sex. Yes,

sex is not always politically correct.

Sometimes we demonstrate during the day

against the very same things that we

delight at night. If it's playful, if

it's consensual, if it's voluntary,

that feels like a contradiction.

Do you understand? But so do children.

Children play prisoners and children

play firemen and victims and doctors and

patients. Would they understand that

when they play they enter a universe of

as if

nobody wants to be pinned down

and tied up

you know for real

as against their will.

Yeah.

As in a situ, you know,

non-conensually.

Non-consensually and with the mean and

without the meaning that says this is

for pleasure, this is for connection.

This is for surrender. This is for this

very powerful ritual.

You know when kids are tying each other

up because they are the prisoners. They

are not tolerating it because they know

that they are in the realm of play as if

make belief and it gives it the fun and

different meaning. Nobody wants to be

trapped

when it becomes real. You know, if you

play hide and seek, the most amazing

thing is when you're hiding is to know

that somebody's looking for you. But the

minute you begin to wonder, are they

still looking for you? The thrill turns

into terror. This is what happens in sex

too.

You know, you have to it's extremely

important to differentiate when it is

sexual, when it's a form of play, when

it's a particular practice you enjoy and

everything around it is con is coming

together to clarify that. But

are you seeing couples struggling though

with these sort of newly defined gender

roles as it relates to their sex lives

and as we said like feminism and the

equality of the sexes and all? Is it is

it changed anything?

I mean I think that one thing is to talk

about sexual rights

and one thing is to talk about sexual

pleasure and experience. I think you

know I was I was teaching this course

yesterday. I think it's about 97% of

research on desire is about women. What

does that say to you? That says that we

think women have challenges around

desire. Men don't have to be researched

because the assumption is they're always

interested

just if give them an opportunity which

is so not true.

Yeah.

But the science is completely bored into

the bias.

What's the difference though? Why does

it matter whether if if all the

researchers are you getting different

results from men and women?

No, because because yes the the the the

experiences are different. But what it

says is that the science has decided

that women need to be helped around

desire.

Yeah. Yeah.

That that they have hyposexual desire

disorder. You know, today it's that in

the past it was the opposite that we

were researching and that men don't need

to be researched because because men

don't have challenges around desire and

be that is that first of all it leaves

many men unattended to. It puts an

unfair burden onto the women. That is

not about feminism. That is about but

science and political changes and social

changes they are in they intersect with

each other. Have women, you know,

changed fundamentally around the fact

that at least in the west in most

situations hopefully sex is no longer

just a woman's marital duty, but that it

is also about her desire, her pleasure,

their connection together. That is huge.

Yeah. I mean, we first separated sex

from reproduction when we got

contraception. Then we separated

reproduction from sex when we got

artificial ways to conceive. And now we

are separated anatomy from gender. And

those are huge revolutions that change

the way we conceive of the relationship.

You know we used to think sex elderly

people that is the weirdest thing

possible. But when is elderly people

start these days? I mean, we understand

that there is a way to stay intimately,

physically, sensually connected till

till the end of your life.

Are you having more and more couples

come to you? And this is difficult, I

guess, because maybe it's just more

people talking about it now, but are you

having more couples come to you that are

experiencing problems in the bedroom,

sexlessness in their relationships?

Of course. But what does that mean,

sexlessness?

Because you know in a in in a in a

relationship or in a culture where the

woman's experience doesn't really

matter.

There may be sex, but that may be

miserable sex.

Do you think there's a lot of miserable

sex?

Of course. You know, and when women

don't have desire, is it really that

they have less desire or is it that they

don't have desire for the sex they can

have?

In order to want sex, it needs to be sex

that is worth wanting.

Well, my I've said this before, but it's

worth saying now again. My partner

turned around to me one day and said, "I

don't like having sex with you." And I

was shocked. I was like, "This was super

early into our relationship." And as a

very young man, I didn't understand what

that meant. Very emasculated by it. I

thought there some must she must be

broken in some way. There must be some

kind of medical defect. Maybe she needs

some pills or a doctor or something. We

ended up breaking up. We spent a year

apart. She ended up doing some work on

herself. I did a little bit of work on

myself. We got back together

uh and went on a bit of a journey

together to find out what the actual

answer was. And it turns out it wasn't

that she didn't like having sex or

having sex with me. She very much enjoys

sex, but there was a series of

blockages. And I almost describe it like

I thought sex was one language, Spanish.

And it turns out she thought she was

speaking French. And I just assumed

because she wasn't speaking Spanish that

we couldn't have sex basically.

Mhm.

And at some point I started to view it

as maybe there's 10 different languages

or five different languages of sex. And

maybe my job is to learn the language

that she is speaking. And I have to say

and I say this I give this conclusion

because there's a lot of people that are

in that situation right now. I know that

because I'd say at one point about 20%

20 to 40% of my friendship group were.

We have a great sex life. now. Um,

and I say that because I think couples

often think they just can't turn it

around. They think that when one partner

turns and says, "I'm not enjoying this,"

they think it's the other person's

broken.

We managed to turn it around. Um,

it's wonderful.

It's a It's a It It's wonderful. And

what is not said often enough is that

when people are able to change this, it

changes the whole relationship.

Mhm.

That's what I said before. I said you

can change the kitchen, but it won't

change the bedroom. But when you change

the bedroom, it changes the people who

walk into the kitchen.

And it's very very important and and but

it's you need to do things. You you

can't talk about not having sex.

everybody differently. You you it's

difficult to want to have more sex by

talking about not wanting to have sex.

Yeah.

You have to try new things.

Yeah.

And that means you take chances, you

risk, you explore together and when it

doesn't work, you try something else.

And that is what people often find

really challenging. They'd rather take

it as a criticism and then they

defensive and then they counterattack

and then you say to her there's

something wrong with you etc etc. Do you

know what really struggle I struggled

with was that first day when I tried to

initiate sex and then I basically got

rejected

that created this almost anxiety every

going forward. And then there was maybe

about a year not even a year maybe less

than that 6 months where if I if id like

tried to initiate sex I'd be like

rejected and that kind of just totally

turned me off. And it it was even when

we fix the situation, I almost had to do

a lot of work on myself just to cuz then

she starts initiating all the time when

we when we get out of the other end of

the situation when we resolve it. And

then that's basically a problem because

I've learned this habit that she has to

initiate sex now because there was this

periods for 6 months where I was just

rejected all the time. And uh yeah, that

was difficult cuz I tell you I tell you

what, when you've got to get an

erection, the last thing you want to be

doing is thinking and thinking and

thinking, am I going to be rejected? Is

it D does she want to have it to you

know it's the last thing you want to be

thinking.

So this fear of rejection is probably

one of the most important emotional or

sexual vulnerabilities

for many men.

Um it's part of what is so alluring in

porn by the way. You're never rejected

in porn. Shio never says not now. She

always says me too more. more more

and that takes care of one of the very

important sexual vulnerabilities that

many men grapple with. By the way, the

next one would be um you're also never

incompetent.

You never have performance anxiety. It

doesn't matter. Whatever you do, you do

it's for you. So that takes care of the

second vulnerability. And the third one

is that you never have to wonder is she

enjoying it because she only screams and

makes sure that she she lets whoever the

actor is know how phenomenal he is. So

and also you've searched out the fantasy

that you want. So you're getting

absolutely there's no rejection in the

fantasy.

So it's very interesting thing when you

look at what does porn do for many men

is it takes care of three major

emotional dilemmas around sex. It's it's

not that it just takes care of the sex.

It takes care of the vulnerabilities,

the emotional vulnerabilities around

sex. That's a real different way of

understanding when you say to people,

what are you looking at?

Are you not concerned that with

artificial artificial intelligence on

the way in virtual reality that we're

literally if if porn is taking care of

those vulnerabilities that are standing

in the way of many men,

so will bots.

Yeah, exactly.

So will machines ever more so.

A machine I put a headset on. I buy the

machine on the internet, you know,

and then it can talk to me

and I have an augmented reality and they

never say no and they know exactly what

I like and they accompany me everywhere

and I don't have to feel like I want too

much or too little or I'm doing it wrong

or anything. Yeah, absolutely. It's a

fantastic idealistic world in which one

can enter. scary

and understandable.

Especially as people are getting lonier,

they they'll p they'll see that as a

substitute for the real thing. Maybe a

better substitute for the real thing in

some people's minds.

Yes. Those who will seek it out will

want you to will want to believe that it

is

um a good substitute.

You look concerned. I I

it's a world that I don't know yet that

I'm watching. When I say I don't know

yet, I know I know plenty. But I I I

there are things that are changing where

I say I'm excited. This is phenomenal.

And then there are things that are

changing and I'm saying where is this

taking us?

And I'm a lot more cautious.

And this is one of them. When couples do