You've written one of the best-selling

books in history about habits because

people always need more practical help

with implementing their habits. And I

have different strategies and different

tools to get habits to stick, including

one principle that is probably the

single most important for building

habits, but so much of it is about

mastering the art of getting started.

>> Let's get started then. James Clear is

one of the world's leading habit

experts. is educating millions to build

lasting habits, master goal setting, and

ultimately redesign their lives.

>> There are four different stages that

every habit goes through. Q, craving,

response, and reward. So, first, we want

to make it obvious. Easier it is to see

or get your attention, the more likely

you are to act on it. The second is

about the craving. It's all about making

it attractive. And the more engaging or

exciting it is, the more likely you are

to stick with it. The third is to make

it easy. The easier a habit is to

perform, the more likely it is to

happen. And then the fourth and final

one is to make it satisfying. And that's

about increasing the odds that you do it

next time. [music] And there's some

tools that we can go through. But one of

the big takeaways from atomic habits is

it's easier [music] to build a new habit

if you stack it on top of the habit

you're already doing. So let's say that

your current habit is you make a cup of

coffee. And the new habit that you want

to build is you want to start

meditating. So then you could say, "All

right, after I make my morning cup of

coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds."

And you can do it for anything. There's

also a framework that I call hats,

haircuts, and tattoos. the secret to

winning, habit shaping, and real lesson

of getting 1% better every day. And we

can talk about all of them.

>> But is there any frameworks, any

tactics? If you're trying to break a

habit, if you want to break a bad habit,

there's some things that you can do.

>> James, the book has shaped tens and tens

and tens of millions of lives, is there

anything you look back on that you

regret? If I could add something, I

would add this because if you really

want to make progress again and again,

if you want to get to the top and stay

at the top and you need to be able to

I see messages all the time in the

comment section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you.

[music]

>> James, you've written thousands and

thousands of things, but one particular

thing you wrote called Atomic Habits is

one of the bestselling books in history.

Um, it is rumored to be potentially

in the top 100 books that have sold in

history of all time, but also rumored to

be potentially the youngest book to make

the top 100 books in history. My

question is,

what has the success of Atomic Habits

taught you about the nature of humanity

and humans?

We all have habits. We all need habits.

You know, it's one of those really it's

an interesting concept because it is

both universal in the sense that we all

have them, we all need them, but it's

also highly individual. Your habits feel

like your habits, not mine, you know,

and [clears throat] so it's both

universal and specific. Uh, and that's

that's an interesting contrast, and I

think it leads to one of the reasons why

people are so interested in the topic.

You know, we all have them. We all need

them. We all feel like they're our own,

and we want to come up with our little

version of them. But the habit also is

like an entrance ramp to how you spend

your time in other ways. Like the habit

of pulling out your phone, that habit

might only take two seconds to do, but

then it might dictate what you do for

the next hour. You know, you're

answering emails or browsing social

media or playing a video game or

whatever. And it was really the initial

habit of pulling out the phone that

shaped what that hour did. So the

influence of our habits is enormous. You

know, in a lot of ways, your your

results in life are kind of a lagging

measure of the habits that precede them.

You know, like your knowledge is a

lagging measure of your reading and

learning habits. Your bank account is a

lagging measure of your financial

habits. Even silly stuff like the amount

of clutter in your living room is the

lagging measure of your cleaning habits.

And so, we all so badly want our

outcomes to change, you know, we also

badly want our results to change, but

the results are not actually the thing

that needs to change. It's like fix the

habits and the results will fix

themselves. Change the inputs and the

outputs will shift automatically.

>> And it's funny because the book has

shaped tens and tens and tens of

millions of lives, but it also must have

shaped you in some ways.

>> Oh, of course. In a way, I had to learn

the concepts to write the book. Like I

had to build writing habits to write the

book. The fact that I have struggled

with habits and failed with them. The

fact that I've tried things and it

hasn't worked out. The fact that I have

eventually broken through and been able

to build habits. that all of that made

the book better because you realize how

hard it is to have something practical

to say. I actually think I have this

little theory that uh a lot of books are

branded as how-to books, but they're

actually what to books. They tell you

what to think. You should be confident.

You should believe in yourself. You

should take XYZ action, but they don't

actually tell you how to do those

things.

>> And in and in hindsight, is there

anything you look back on that you

regret about the book?

>> I don't think there's anything that I

regret. If I could add something, I

would add something. I would add this

simple question, which is, what would it

look like if this was fun? What would it

look like if your habits were fun? Like

the most common New Year's resolution is

to do some form of exercise. So, you

know, I feel like a lot of people are

going to the gym in January because they

feel like they should go to the gym or

society wants them to go to the gym, you

know, or there's some kind of social

pressure to go to the gym. But if we

were to come up with a list of what it

means to be active and fit, you know,

and healthy, we could come up with a

long list of things. Go to the gym and

lift weights. You could kayak, rock

climb, do yoga, pilates, what, like, you

know, we could probably sit here for

like 15 minutes and come up with a real

long list. And for most of your habits,

if it's an important habit to you, I

think it's worth it to take 10 minutes

and write that list out and then look at

it at the end and say, "What would this

look like if it was fun? what's which of

these options is the most fun to me. And

that doesn't mean that your habits will

be like the most fun thing that you do

each day. You know, it's not like it's

always going to feel like going to a

concert or something, but it does mean

that pretty much any habit can be more

fun than the default, you know? So, you

might as well take a little bit of time

to figure out what is the fun version of

this. And ultimately, I think the reason

why this matters is that if you're

having fun, you're more likely to stick

with it. You're more likely to

persevere. The person who's having fun

is actually the person who's dangerous.

Like you don't want to compete with them

because they're having a good time. When

it gets difficult, they're way more

likely to stick with it. The person who

it felt like a hassle at the start was

kind of, you know, annoying. They sort

of have a negative frame around the the

behavior to begin with. Well, as soon as

it gets difficult, they didn't want to

do it in the first place. So, they're

much more likely to give up. David

Epstein, who's the author of uh Range

and Sports Genius, friend of mine, um he

told me once, "Grit is fit." Grit is

fit. And what he means is that everybody

wants to be gritty. They want to

persevere. But the way that you display

that grit and discipline and

perseverance is in areas where you are

well suited, where it's a good fit for

you. If [clears throat] it's a good fit,

if you're well suited for it, if you're

having fun, if you're interested and

engaged, then you're way more likely to

stick with it. And so, in a lot of ways,

I feel like the biggest hurdle to clear,

and this is true maybe for life in

general, but definitely for habits,

because everybody wants to be consistent

with their habits. Everybody wants to

stick to them. The biggest hurdle to

clear is are you interested? Are are you

engaged? Are you having fun? And so the

more that you can get closer to that,

the more fun it can be, the more likely

you are to persevere and stick with it.

>> I was just thinking about this idea

actually the other day because I I was

writing when we hit a subscriber

milestone. I was writing to think about

what actually mattered the most. And one

of the first thing I wrote was creating

the conditions to out persist.

>> And what I mean by that is like create

the conditions so that you can do this

for long enough that things start

compounding in your favor. like learning

starts compounding in your favor like

the the returns like the the subscribers

or it could be your finances whatever

start compounding in your favor.

>> The question that you asked is very

similar to one that I ask myself a lot

which is am I creating the conditions

for success. So I had a really good

stretch of training in the gym and then

uh about two and a half years ago I was

in pretty good shape and then I had a

year where it was just like really

inconsistent. I missed a lot of workouts

things sometimes it would go well

sometimes it wouldn't whatever. And

after that year I was like okay I got to

change something. And on the surface,

you look at it and you think, I'm having

trouble with the workouts. You think

there's some problem with, you know,

exercise, but that was actually not the

problem. The problem was I wasn't

creating the conditions for success.

>> And so, there were lots of other things

that were intervening and like making

interrupting my day and making it easy

for me to miss. So, this last year, I

hired a trainer and he shows up at 11:00

a.m. every, you know, four days a week.

And when he gets there, every single

time it's a hassle because I'm in the

middle of something. Um, right? every

time I've got something going on and I

kind of am like annoyed by it that he's

there, but we're creating the conditions

for success and it makes sure that I get

down there and I do it and then every

time when I get done with the workout,

I'm like, I'm glad I took the time to do

that. Um, and so nothing really needed

to change with the workout. That was not

the problem. The problem was I didn't

have the right conditions to start the

workout. M

>> and so I think this actually reveals a

really deep and important thing about

habits which is

so much of it is about mastering the art

of getting started. It's making it easy

to start in a way like probably 70% of

what's in atomic habits are different

strategies and different ideas and

different tools that help you get

started or makes starting easier. This

trainer who I've been working with now

he he came over the other day and he

told me, "Yeah, I had a class in the

morning. eight people were supposed to

come, but it was like it was a pretty

gross day. It was like rainy and wet and

kind of cold and only two people showed

up. And I was talking to him about it

and I said, "What's interesting to me

about that is how little of an edge you

need to gain an advantage." You know,

really what we're talking about there is

you just need to be okay with being

inconvenienced or uncomfortable for like

5 to 10 minutes getting dressed, getting

through the rain, getting into your car,

getting to the gym. The workout is the

same that it's always been. It's the

same. you're in the same gym that you

are in the summer or when the weather's

beautiful or whatever. So, it's really

can you handle that like five minutes of

inconvenience.

>> And so many things in life are like

that. Can you master that little moment?

And if you can and you can still get

started, that's when you gain an

advantage. Everybody works out on the

good days. But on the days when you feel

stressed and tired, on the days when the

weather's bad and it's kind of

inconvenient, on the days when you don't

really feel like it, can you show up?

even if it's in a small way. One of my

little mantras that I try to keep in

mind is reduce the scope but stick to

the schedule. So the normal scope might

be I write for 30 minutes and then you

look up at the clock and you're like I

only have 15. And sometimes what happens

in your head is you're like oh I don't

have enough time to write today. Or

you're like oh I was planning to work

out for 60 minutes and you look up and

you're like time got away from me. I

only have 20 minutes now. I don't have

time to go to the gym. It's easy to talk

yourself out of it but reduce the scope

but stick to the schedule. It's like,

well, I only got 20 minutes instead of

60, so I'll just get in there and do a

couple sets of squats and that's it. And

I've had so many workouts that have been

like that where you're like almost, you

know, it's easy to be kind of

disappointed you weren't able to do the

whole thing that you wanted to do. But

you didn't throw up a zero. And if you

don't throw up a zero, you maintain the

habit. And if you maintain the habit,

all you need is time. And so the bad

days are more important than the good

days in that sense. You need to figure

out how do you show up even if when it's

not optimal.

>> And that first five minutes. Yeah, I was

thinking about all the the first five

minute battles that I've won over the

last week because I've, you know, I lost

track of my workout. I've been traveling

through Asia on this tour I've been

doing. Got back, fallen off. The

motivation doesn't seem to be quite the

same as it was before I left. [laughter]

So, it's like I'm dragging myself there.

The workouts are like four out of 10.

Um, but I went.

>> Yeah.

>> And now I'm I think the momentum is

building. But that first 5 minute point,

is there anything that you've learned,

any frameworks, any tactics for for

making sure you you get past that first

5 minutes so you can get into the the

flow of the habit?

>> Yeah, there's multiple things. So first

thing is try to prime the environment to

make the first action easy. Prime the

environment to make the first action

easy. So let's say writing for example.

I find that for myself the biggest point

of friction is choosing what to write

about. Once I've actually finally

settled, this is the thing I'm writing

today, then I can get into it and I'm

off and running. Um, but I'll sit there

for two hours just debating whether it's

the right thing to be focused on writing

or not. You know, should I work on this

chapter? Should I work on something else

or whatever. So, what I've started to do

is sometimes I will write the first

sentence of what I'm going to write and

just leave it on the Google doc right

there and then leave. And the next day

when I come back, I'm already in, right?

Like it's already the first sentence is

already written. So now I'm just writing

the next piece of what's coming rather

than trying to choose what to write

about.

>> Another one that I've done sometimes is

I will write sometimes I'll write the

topic or I'll write the sentence on a

post-it note and I'll put it on top of

the keyboard and so when I come into the

office it's right there in front of I

can't you know I got to pick it off the

keys to log onto the computer and so

it's like remember this is what you're

writing about right now you know so it's

just trying to make it easy to get in. I

have a bunch of readers who do stuff

like set their running out running

clothes out the night before, you know,

so they're right next to the bed. You

got your clothes and your shoes there. I

one woman I just talked to uh her at an

event. She came up afterward and she

said, "I actually sleep in my running

clothes and just get out and get put her

shoes on and goes right out the door."

But you're trying to prime the

environment to make the action easy.

Okay. So, how can you set up the spaces

that you're in uh to prime those habits?

I think one really interesting question

to ask, walk into the rooms where you

spend most of your time each day, your

office, your living room, your bedroom,

and then look around and ask yourself,

what is this space designed to

encourage? What behaviors are easy here?

What behaviors are obvious here? And the

good habits that you say you want to

build, are those the path of least

resistance? Is that the obvious thing in

this environment? And if not, maybe you

can make some adjustments to try to make

the good habit easier and the

distractions maybe a little bit harder.

So that's first thing, prime the

environment to make the action easy.

Second thing is if there's like one

principle that is probably the single

most important for building habits, it's

make it easy. Just scale it down and

make it easy. I refer to it sometimes as

the two-minute rule. So take whatever

habit you're trying to work on, you

scale it down to something that takes

two minutes or less to do. Read 30 books

a year becomes read one page or do yoga

four days a week becomes take out my

yoga mat.

Sometimes I will mention this to people

and they resist it a little bit. You

know, they're like, "Okay, buddy." Like,

I know the real goal isn't just to take

my yoga mat out. You know, I know I'm

actually trying to do the workout. So,

this is some kind of mental trick and I

know it's a trick. Then why would I fall

for it? Basically, but there's this guy,

I mentioned him in Atomic Habits, his

name is Mitch. And he went to the gym

and for the first six weeks, he had this

strange little rule for himself where he

wasn't allowed to stay for longer than 5

minutes. So, you get in the car, drive

to the gym, get out, do half an

exercise, get back in the car, drive

home. And you're like, "This sounds

silly, right? Clearly, this is not going

to get the guy the results that he

wants." But what you realize is that he

was mastering the art of showing up,

right? He was becoming the type of

person that went to the gym four days a

week, even if it was only for five

minutes. And so, I think this is kind of

a deep truth about habits, which is a

habit must be established before it can

be improved. you know, has to become the

standard in your life before you

optimize and scale it up into something

more. There's that quote from Ed

Latimore where he says, "The heaviest

weight at the gym is the front door."

There are a lot of things in life that

are like that. And so, by trying to make

it easy to master, to easy to get

started, um then you're in the game now.

You're in the arena. There's all kinds

of things you can improve from there. I

remember um Jordan Peterson saying

talking about his some of his clinical

um patients and referring to one in

particular who was in a room full of

junk and couldn't leave the room because

of a certain fear and certain

psychological problems he had. And

Jordan saying that day one they just

brought the Hoover into the room and

that was it. Day two they plugged the

Hoover in and that was it. And then by

day like 30 the guy is out of the room,

the room is clean and he's walking

around outside for the first time in in

months or years. And he goes on to say

that the reason why people don't get

started is because the first step is so

embarrassing. People think that it's not

worth it or that it's like shameful to

do. It's like almost like patronizingly

embarrassing. And um I've always kept

that in mind uh since then and when from

your work as well just that assume the

first steps are like embarrassingly

small.

>> There's this process called habit

shaping which is is basically like that.

Um, you know, like if you want to run a

half marathon, the first day the step

might be to put on your running shoes

and then the second day the step is to

like walk outside the front door and the

third day the step is to go around the

block. And you know, you're just like

gradually shaping into this this larger

habit. But there's this thing that

happens when people think about building

better habits. I think particularly

ambitious people, it's very easy to get

excited about all the changes you can

make. You start thinking, even if you

don't say this explicitly, you think

like, what would peak performance look

like? you know, if I could really get my

habits dialed in, what could I do? And

you start imagining five, six, seven

things that you would do and what all of

them would look like in their perfect

form and so on. And I think instead of

asking ourselves, what could I do on my

best day, it's better to start by asking

what can I stick to even on the bad

days? And that becomes your baseline.

That becomes the first step. And now

that you have this floor that is

achievable even when you're tired, even

when you're exhausted, even when you

don't have much time, now you can show

up and feel like you're succeeding, you

know, and then you can progress from

there. One of the most motivating

feelings to the human mind is a feeling

of progress. If you feel like you're

making progress, even if it's smaller

than what you ultimately hope to do, you

have every reason to move forward. But

often we become like a victim of our

expectations. We ex we spend all this

time optimizing the perfect plan and

then expect things to go perfectly out

of the gate and you had it so built up

in your mind that once you don't hit

that mark in the f first or second or

third day it falls apart.

>> And you talked earlier on about sitting

there for two hours thinking about what

to write. I I think I've learned through

through business and in the first

iteration of my career where I worked

with CEOs and executives that were

planning marketing campaigns that

actually in hindsight often the biggest

cost wasn't being wrong. It was the time

you waste making a decision. You see

this if you've ever you've interacted

with so many big corporations. Yeah.

Like they spend 18 months thinking about

>> get waiting for Joanna to come back from

annual leave to get procurement to sign

off the thing. And I worked with this

one particular founder during that

season of my life who where I was

working with his dad and him and his dad

would take nine months because the

company was so big. His son would

interrupt me halfway through the idea

and call us all in and say do it now.

And he taught me that actually in life

that the biggest cost is the time you

waste making the decision. And I think

about that with my own habits. I think

sometimes sitting around thinking about

whether I'm going to run today is

costing me much more than just [ __ ]

And do you think about how you kill that

mental debate? Like is that an effective

strategy to try and kill the debate and

not make a decision per se?

>> Yeah. So speed is perpetually

undervalued. That's for sure. Life is

short and so the sooner that you make

decisions, the sooner you get

information. Now, I will say I I have a

little framework that I call hats,

haircuts, and tattoos. And this is how

how I kind of think about it. So, a lot

of decisions are like hats. Just try you

try one hat. If you don't like it, take

it off. You can try another. It's just

real quick. You you know, you get some

information. Speed is most important.

Move quickly, get some information,

learn something. If it was wrong, it's

not that big of a deal. Just take it off

and put a new hat on. Haircut is a

little bit trickier. It's a It's a

decision that you have to live with for

a little bit. you know, like you're okay

if you get a bad haircut, but you're

gonna you're gonna have to live with it

for a month or two. You know, it's it's

going to take a little bit of time for

it to grow out. And so, it's probably

not a big deal to be scared of getting a

bad haircut. I think a lot of people

probably talk themselves out of it. It's

like, you'll be fine in a month. It's

it's fine. Tattoos are trickier. You

know, you get a tattoo, you got to live

with that choice. It's permanent. And

so, if a really what we're getting at

here is, is the choice reversible or is

the choice irreversible? If the choice

is easy to reverse, speed is most

important. You should move fast. If it's

hard to reverse and you got to live with

it, then you need to think carefully

before you make the call. Um, and I

think probably what you're seeing uh

through some of your experiences is that

most decisions in life are hats and

haircuts. It's very rare that you end up

with a tattoo,

>> but we treat them all like tattoos.

>> We Yeah, we uh I think in particular we

are we are scared, particularly the bad

haircuts. I think the ones that like

linger for just a little bit, but not

that long. It's like it's going to take

you a month to fix this if if you get it

wrong, but like that's fine. a month's

going to pass anyway. Um, and so it's

not that big of a deal, but we we act

like it's a bigger deal than it is.

>> Is there a particular case study or

story from a Atomic Habits community

member or someone that reads your

newsletter

that has been the most impactful for

you?

>> There's not a single one. There are lots

that I'm like proud of or really excited

by, ones I'm surprised by. Um, I heard

from a guy the other day, he was the

head coach at St. Olaf's University in

Minnesota and men's soccer. And when he

came in, their record was something like

five and 13 and they were, you know,

like near the bottom of the standings.

And he was like, I read Atomic Habits

right around the time I took this job.

And we came up with systems for

everything we did. We taught our players

systems for how they tie their shoes and

cleats to get ready for the game. We

taught them systems for how they prepped

for practice. We taught them systems for

their role on the field. And uh, you

know, gradually they improved each year,

five and 13. Then they went like eight

and eight. And then the next year after

that they won the conference. And then

the year after that they went to the

NCAA Sweet 16 and then five years later

they won the national championship. You

know, of course stuff like that's

awesome to hear about, right? You're

like they went from they went from five

wins uh in and then in five years later

they win the national title. But the

ones that matter to me the most are the

ones that I hear from somebody and they

say um I finally feel better. You know,

I feel different. I look in the mirror

and I'm like proud of who I am or uh my

kids tell me that they're excited to

see, you know, the change in me or

things like that. And that's what it's

always been about, you know, it's always

been about becoming the type of person

that you want to be. And so I think uh

anytime I I hear stories like that, I

think it's exciting.

>> So when this um was it a coach or was it

>> Yeah, Travis Wall is the head coach at

St. Olaf's. Um he's the head coach at

Kenyon. Uh now,

>> so he talked about systems there. Most

of us think about to-do lists and goals

and those kinds of things. What what is

the difference between a system and a

goal?

>> I was very goal driven for a long time.

I I mean, I probably still am. You know,

I don't think there's any way to get

around the fact that we all have goals

and think about the outcomes we want and

so on. But a goal is about the outcome

that you want to achieve and a system is

about the process for getting there. And

so your goal is the target, the outcome,

the thing you're shooting for. Your

system is the collection of daily habits

that you follow. And if there is ever a

gap between your goal and your system,

if there's ever a gap between your

desired outcome and your daily habits,

your daily habits will always win,

>> you know. And so almost by definition,

your current habits are perfectly

designed to deliver your current

results. You know, if you want to see

like where you're going to end up, just

follow the trajectory of your habits.

you know what's the process you've been

running for the last 6 months or year or

two years and they've carried you almost

inevitably to the outcomes that you have

right now I'm not saying that habits are

the only thing that matter in life right

like strategy matters luck randomness uh

those misfortune those things can

influence the outcome but by definition

luck and randomness are not under your

control

>> and your habits are and the only

reasonable rational approach in life is

to focus on the pieces that are within

your control so I think goals can be

good for setting a sense of direction.

They're good for clarity. You know,

especially if you have a team, get

everybody rowing in the same direction.

But once you've decided what the goal

is, you should basically set it on the

shelf, metaphorically speaking, and

spend the vast majority of your time

focused on building a better system. How

are the habits we're executing each day

moving us closer to this outcome that we

want? And so where I've come after

talking about this for five or six years

now since book's been out, where I've

come down on it is goals are best for

people who care about winning once.

Systems are best for people who care

about winning repeatedly. If you really

want to make progress again and again,

if you want to get to the top and stay

at the top, you need some process for

staying up there. Some collection of

habits that's going to keep uh this

machine running. So this is why, you

know, I say in the book, we don't rise

to level of our goals, we fall to level

of our systems. As you were talking, I

was thinking so much about about

business and founders and entrepreneurs

because they all have big goals. We want

to build the best AI app or the best I

don't know restaurant and we they stay

really focused on those. But the great

the greatest founders that I think I've

met and interviewed on this show are

actually really orientated on like what

you call in the book first principles

and systems. Mhm.

>> Is there a way to to become more

orientated towards systems and and

thinking about first principles like the

the habits that lead to the goal is or

is it just just so that some people have

it cuz like Elon Musk is always talking

about first principles and he thinks in

terms of building the system. I do think

some of it is personality and like what

you what's exciting to you to think

about like some people are very future

oriented and like thinking about what

the systems are and what that would lead

them to and and so on um or more

processoriented but there are a number

of questions that you can ask that can

help you figure out like what systems

you should be focused on you know so

like a couple of the ones I like one

question is can my current habits carry

me to my desired future so you have a

bunch of habits you're following right

now what what path are you on you know

can your current habits take you there?

And they could be either way. Like

sometimes the answer is yes. And what

you need is patience. You just need to

keep, you know, staying on the path. But

sometimes the answer is no. And then

obviously something needs to change. You

know, you're hoping for one outcome, but

then you're following a different

lifestyle.

>> So to want the outcome without the

lifestyle is to like torture yourself.

And what really matters is not do you

want the the result. Anybody would like

the result if you just hand it to them.

The question is do you want the

lifestyle? One of the little things I

try to do whenever I have a new business

project that I'm thinking about or

something I'm I'm excited about

potentially doing, the first question I

ask is how do I want to spend my days?

And so then you like draw a box and

inside that box, how can we make the

most money, reach the most people, make

the biggest impact, you know, make the

contribution that you want to make, but

not outside of it. And what happens a

lot of the time is people do that in

reverse. They start by asking how can we

make the most money or reach the most

people or make the biggest impact and

then they decide oh well this is what I

want to do but it's actually outside of

how they want to spend their days

>> and it's not going to work out well

because you know it goes back to our

point uh previously about is this fun

you know if the if they don't want to

spend their time that way you're just

grinding for a little while and

eventually it's not going to work.

That's the key for building systems that

really work is is this how you want to

spend your days. the person who wants to

live the lifestyle is much better

positioned to get the result.

>> You say that um there are multiple

problems with with goals as a I guess as

a rubric for thinking about what to do

or what to aim for. One of them is that

winners and losers have the same goals.

>> Everybody wants the results. Let's say

you have a 100 people apply for a job.

You got a new job opening.

>> Presumably, [clears throat]

every candidate has the goal of getting

the job. The goal is not the thing that

determines the outcome. So the person

who wins and the 99 people who lose,

they have the same goals. You look at

the Olympic Games, presumably any event,

everybody who's competing has the goal

of winning the Olympic medal, right? Of

winning the gold. So the goal is not the

thing that makes the difference. So

again, winners and losers have the same

goals. So if they have the same goals,

they cannot be the thing that make the

difference in their performance. It has

to be something else. Maybe having a

goal is part of it. Maybe it's

necessary, but it's not sufficient for

the outcome that you want. And for that,

what you need is a system. You need a

collection of habits that are going to

make the difference um and uh and

accumulate into a bigger outcome.

>> And you say goals restrict your

happiness.

>> There's some implicit promise internally

that once I get to this goal, then I'll

be happy. You know, once I write a New

York Times bestseller, then I'll feel

better about it. You know, once I

achieve this certain number on the

scale, then I'll be happy with my body.

Once I get to a million dollars in

revenue, then I'll be happy with the

business. And so you're kind of

constantly pushing happiness off to the

next milestone and thinking that once

you get there, then finally you'll be

satisfied. But I think in fact the

better way to do it is to fall in love

with the process, to fall in love with

the lifestyle, then you can be happy

along the way and still achieve the

goals as you go, still achieve the

milestones. For a long time, I wrestled

I had trouble with this question of do I

have to be dissatisfied if I want to be

driven?

>> Yeah.

>> Do you have to be dissatisfied to be

driven? Because to me, I felt like

there's where I'm at right now and

there's where I want to be. And so

there's this gap and there that gap is

dissatisfaction. That gap is, you know,

you're you want it to change. You want

it to close. And it's also what is

motivating and driving you is to try to

close that gap. And so the healthiest

answer, maybe the answer is yes, I don't

know. But uh the healthiest answer that

I've come up with is imagine like an

acorn falls from a tree. it manages to

take root, becomes a seedling and then a

sapling and eventually grows into this

mature oak tree. And at no point in that

process when it was just an acorn, it

wasn't criticizing itself for not being

a sapling. You know, it was just a

sapling, it wasn't criticizing itself

for not being an oak. Um, it wasn't

dissatisfied with where it was at. And

nobody came over and was criticizing it

for, "Oh, I can't believe you're not a

full-grown tree yet." But it kept

growing the whole time. So

simultaneously you have this thing where

it was both perfect at each stage that

it was at. Nothing was wrong and yet it

continued to grow. And the reason is

because that's just what an oak tree

does. That's what it is encoded to do.

It is encoded for growth. And so when I

look at myself, I think if I put myself

in the right position, that's how I feel

about it. You know, I I am perfectly

happy with where I'm at at each stage.

And yet I'm encoded to grow, right? I'm

encoded to keep going. And so I can both

be driven and be satisfied. I can both

be appreciative of the moment and still

moving forward. And I think that works

best when you find that thing. Sometimes

we call it your strengths. Sometimes we

might say it's what you're encoded to

do. Uh but when you find that thing that

is well aligned for you and if you do

find that, then you can have both of

those.

>> I love that. I love that. And I think

with with age and maturity, I've gotten

closer to being in that region where I'm

well aware nothing is going to make me

happier at all. like no accomplishment

future nothing's going to change

anything

>> but at the same time I'm still striving

and that does feel like a contradiction

to some degree it feels like how can

those two things be true at the same

time that you're striving for things

that you know won't really move the

needle in any any way the difference I

see between like me and something in

nature is that I the thing in nature

probably isn't comparing itself on

Instagram to like

>> everyone else and I understand humans to

be like comparison machines kind of how

we understand the value of things like I

understand the value of the steak on a

menu by the the cheap steak and the most

expensive one. So I think the middle one

is probably right. Do you think much

about comparison as a motivating or

demotivating force in this picture?

>> I think it can be very helpful and also

it can also be very harmful. So it's

just sort of a a sense of how you use

it. I tend to find it better if you

compare small things. So if you compare

marketing strategies or squat form or

you know writing style or you know the

first sentence of each chapter like how

do I have a good intro? If you compare

tactics, then that can be really helpful

for building skills and for developing

your ability. If you compare big things,

marriage, net worth, you know, things

like that, it's like that's just kind of

a recipe for ending up unhappy. Um

because they as the scale gets bigger,

things get more vague. There's so many

things involved in marriage and so you

know, or net worth or whatever. You you

just see one little slice and you are

trying to compare these two big things,

but you don't even know what the full

picture is. Uh, and so comparison is

like the teacher of skills when it's

applied narrowly, but it's the thief of

joy when it's applied broadly.

>> That makes sense. Yeah.

>> Early on, when you said that, you know,

ambitious people, they have lots of

aspirations, lots of habits they want to

start. I was thinking about myself and

thinking there's probably 30 habits that

I would like to acquire. I'd want to be

better at writing. I want to be a

runner. I want to be better at speaking.

I want to be a better friend and be more

um attentive with my friends and make

sure I text them on their birthdays and

sh you know

>> all of these new habits that I want to

pursue. How does one know which one to

aim for first? Is there a framework for

knowing?

>> Yeah, there there's some things that you

can do. I don't think um to your point

earlier about uh sometimes the riskiest

things just take a long time making a

decision. You know, if you maybe you

should just pick one and work on it and

then you can get on to the next one. But

I do think there's some level of

strategy which is a good place to start

is by asking yourself which habits are

upstream from other good things

happening. So for example I know that if

you were maybe the maybe the question to

start with is when you live a good day

when you feel dialed in when things are

like rolling along well for you what

tends to be part of that day sleep. you

know, okay, great. So, that's, you know,

I would say for me, sleep, sleep is

definitely one. I would say, uh, getting

my workout in. And usually reading and

writing are a part of it, but I think I

could just boil it down to reading. If I

just read like 10 pages, that often

sparks the writing. So, like to me,

reading is like the fuel for writing for

me. So, so I could say get a workout in

and read for 5 minutes or 10 minutes.

Those are the two things that are part

of a good day. And what happens is

they're upstream from a lot of other

good things happening. For example, if I

get the workout in, yeah, I feel good. I

get the benefits of the workout, but I

also have a post-workout high for like

an hour or two. So, I my focus and

concentration is better. I sleep better

at night because I got the workout in.

Now, I'm tired.

>> I tend to eat better when I work out.

It's when I'm not working out that I eat

terribly. That's why I don't know. It's

kind of like I don't want to waste it or

something. So, at no point was I trying

to build better focus habits or sleep

habits or nutrition habits. those just

came kind of a na as a natural

consequence of getting the workout in.

>> So what are those things that you do

that are upstream from other good things

happening? I think those are good like

anchor habits to start and focus on.

>> But if I could add another one for

myself, I would say it's a little bit of

time. It's really just time to think,

but it's it's time to reflect and

review. There's this interesting thing

that happens if you if you have a really

good work ethic, if you have a strong

work ethic and working hard has gotten

you far in life. It kind of becomes a

crutch. You know, you for for a long

time I was like, if I ever had a

problem, I was like, well, I'll just

work my way out of it, you know? I'll

just just work harder on it until I

figure it out. And that that's great.

That's really powerful for a lot of

things. But at some point it breaks, you

know, like you can maybe if you really

try maybe you can work 10% harder or 20%

harder, but there's some limit. But if

you work on the right thing, well, you

could get 100x the result or thousandx

the result. And so if you just keep your

head down and work hard, it's very

unlikely that you'll be spending your

time in the highest and best way.

>> And the only way to figure that out is

to have time to reflect and review. Time

to think, you know, so you need enough

time to think to figure out what should

I be focused on next. And so I think

that is it's almost reflection and

review is almost like the meta habit

that is above all others because if you

give yourself time to reflect and review

then you can troubleshoot your habits

and figure out how to adjust them. I was

thinking as you were saying that that

that that time to reflect and review is

actually also a review of are my current

systems moving me closer because when

when when you're talking about that I

was thinking of times in my life where I

was so close to like the picture and I

was so in the trenches doing the thing

that I hadn't come up to even say

actually is there a system I could put

in place to solve this problem over the

next five or 10 years like for example

is there a person I need to hire so

actually should I go into the hiring

process versus be in there fixing the

problem myself should I spend 10 hours

this week hire on hiring a candidate to

do this or should I be doing it but

sometimes you get so caught up in the

trenches when especially when things are

tough and and difficult and moving very

quickly that you don't review your

systems and also when you're talking

about systems I thought about how

systems sometimes expire.

>> Sure. Yeah.

>> Because things change.

>> That's a great point and I think this is

probably one of the most overlooked

things with habits. A lot of the time

when someone sits down and they want to

build a new habit, they don't say this,

but what they kind of assume is what it

would mean to be successful with this

habit is that I do it for the rest of my

life, you know, and that if at some

point I'm not doing it, then that must

mean that I failed or I quit on it.

>> But that's not how it is at all. Like

things have a season, you know, and so

habits have to change shape over time.

>> Let's take my um my writing habit for

example. I the habit that launched my

career was I wrote a new article every

Monday and Thursday and I did that for

three years. So the first three years

150 articles you know write twice a

week. That was a great habit. They were

like 2,000 word pieces or so. But then I

signed the book deal for Atomic Habits.

I didn't have the capacity to do that

and also write the book. So that had to

change. I wrote the book for like three

years and then the book came out and now

I write a newsletter once a week and

that's much shorter. But I kind of feel

like my writing habit is maintained that

whole time. It just changed shape. But

that's fine. It just needed to shift

based on the season. But I don't know,

people, they get so attached to one form

of a habit sometimes that they don't

realize that it's no longer serving

them.

>> And I think that's the one of the

trickier things to give up is a habit

that used to be good for you, that used

to work well, but no longer serves you

in your current season. It's I find that

I'm kind of a slow learner with that. I

guess parents can probably really relate

because they're forced to basically

change their goals and therefore their

systems would have to I mean you're a

father of three so you probably know

this much better than I do but have has

there been systems that you've had to

sort of

>> I think there's lots of uh inflection

points in life so having kids is one of

them uh starting a new job moving to a

new city you know it can be big stuff

like that I just talked to a mother who

her kids moved out so she's now an empty

neester you know she's like last 25

years I've been parenting all these kids

and now finally they're all out, but it

feels in some sense it almost feels like

a loss of identity. You know, you're

like, I I thought I was one thing and

now, you know, feels like things have

shifted. Um, but also it just signals an

inflection point in life and a new

season that you're in. And when your

seasons change, your habits often need

to change with it. And you talk about

this um four burners theory which I

guess dovetailes into what we're talking

about here where you you use this to

kind of think about what habits to

pursue in any season of life but also a

phrase that I've heard um so often

specifically from mothers on the show

comes to mind which is that you can't

have it all at the same time

>> and I've heard that I think four or five

times different mothers in particular

which is I mean says something about

society yeah have said to me that

they've had to realize that they can't

have it all at the same time

>> for sure. So this is not my concept.

This this idea that I came across. It's

called the four burners theory. And it

breaks life into these four burners on a

stove. So you have work and career as

one. You have family, friends, and then

personal health or you know uh yourself

basically as the other. The idea is that

for the burners to really be going well,

you can't have all four on at the same

time.

>> And burning stove.

>> The stove. Yeah. Yeah. The stove top. So

you you have you can choose you could

have three going on at kind of like a

mid level, but if you really want them

to do well, you can only have two on at

the same time. And you know, who knows?

I I don't know if it's true or not or

whatever, but it's an interesting idea.

And what it does is it gets you to

realize, yeah, a fundamental part of

life is trade-offs. And you cannot be

good at everything at the same time. So

this is true across projects. If you

choose try to do seven things at once,

spreading yourself thin in seven

different ways, very hard to be

excellent. For me, what I think about is

life has a series of seasons and life

has a series of sequences. So, let's say

it's not it's not always exactly 10

years, but let's say the big movements

in life are roughly 10-year buckets,

right? So, like for me, building my

first business, that was kind of like a

10-year thing and eventually led to the

launch of Atomic Habits. You maybe get

five or six of those in your adult life.

Some of those things make sense to do in

a different order than others. Like if

you want to travel the world and see a

bunch of places and party in a visa,

you're probably not going to do that in

your 60s, you know? Like I mean, you

can. There's no nobody's saying you

can't, but some things are probably

better sequenced in other, you know, in

other spots. Obviously, there's, you

know, especially for women, there's a

certain limit on if you want to have a

family, what decades that happens in.

So, yeah, it's just uh it's just a

matter of sequencing and prioritization.

If you look at the like tapestry of your

life, what do you want the big movements

to be and where do those seasons need to

slot in? Um, yeah, it's a it's a that

there is no right answer, but it's

interesting. As soon as you realize it's

a finite number, and as soon as you

realize that trade-offs are always going

to be a reality,

>> you have to deal with that in some way.

Um, I've decided that right now while my

kids are young, like I'm I'm going to

turn the career burner down. And that's

fine. It's not going to be how it was

for the last 10 years. But that's okay

because they're only five once, you

know? They're only turning six once.

They only go to second grade once. And I

I want to be there for all that. So, um,

there are always trade-offs.

>> I think that that sequence point is

super super interesting. It got me

thinking because you're right, there are

sort of some constraints whether they're

biological constraints where in the case

of your kids like just natural

constraints that mean this this season

can only happen now here, right?

>> Yeah. There's also some things like um,

you know, both of us are fairly young

entrepreneurs. I'm so glad that I

started a business in my 20s rather than

my 50s. Um, doesn't mean you can't do it

in your 50s. There's no nobody's saying

you can't. It's just that it makes

things a lot easier for the next decade.

You know, it's easier for me to be there

for my kids now because I have control

of my time because I did the business

part in the previous decade. And so take

the risks.

>> Yeah. And and that doesn't mean it's

always going to work out or whatever. It

doesn't mean that you're going to be

able to perfectly plan it all, but you

just see how the sequences can um can

stack up in that way.

>> And how important do you think when

we're talking about habits, do you think

repetition is? because there's so many

of these sort of well-known concepts or

frameworks in habit formation. One of

them is that habits take roughly 66

days. One of them is that it's about

repetition. Does repetition really

matter?

>> It definitely does. I mean, repetition

is how habits form. Uh the 66 days

number comes from one study that came

out that found that on average it took

about 66 days to build a habit. If you

look at the study, the range is pretty

wide. So, if you pick something really

simple like drinking a glass of water um

at lunch each day, that might only take

two or three weeks to form. If you look

at something more complicated like um

going for a run after work every day,

that might take seven or eight or nine

months to form. And so, I don't know

that 66 days really tells you anything.

It doesn't it doesn't tell you that this

is how long it's going to take for your

habit to stick. I mean, it the range is

wide. Sometimes when people ask me how

long does it take to form a habit, my

answer is forever. Because if you stop

doing it, then it's no longer a habit.

And what I'm kind of getting at with

that is that habits are not a finish

line to be crossed. They're a lifestyle

to be lived, you know? And so we

approach our habits as if it's a finish

line. Oh, let me do this 30-day cleanse

and then I'll be healthy. Let me do this

90-day sprint and then the product will

be shipped. I won't have to worry about

it anymore, you know? And it's like most

things in life, especially the big

important things, they're endless.

They're endless battles, you know. So,

just because you went to the gym

yesterday earns you no bo bonus points

for tomorrow. Like, you still have to

show up tomorrow. Just because you were

a good spouse yesterday earns you no

bonus points for tomorrow. You still

have to be loving and caring again. Um,

and so all the things that really matter

are endless battles. And it's not about

crossing a finish line. It's about

living that kind of lifestyle. And so,

yes, it is true that repetition matters.

And yes, it is true that the habits will

become more seamless and automatic and

maybe a little less effortful as you

repeat them more, but that doesn't mean

that you'll never have to think about

them or, you know, worry about them

again.

>> Do you think much about what's going on

in the brain when repetition occurs?

Like, what is it that's making it

easier? If I', if I've been on a on a

roll with the gym, I've been going for

60 days in a row. Why does it feel

easier on day 61?

That's a tricky question because um if

you were to talk to an academic and they

would tell you like a habit is this

automatic non-concious behavior. Really

quick simple things like brushing your

teeth, tying your shoes, every time you

pick up a pair of barbecue tongs, you

got to tap them together twice, you

know, like stuff that you don't even

really think about. Okay, that's actual

habitual behavior. But if I were to ask

you, what are some habits you're trying

to build? you would say, "I'm trying to

go to the gym four days a week or I'm

trying to write every morning or I'm

trying to meditate, you know, five days

a week or whatever." And I know what you

mean when you say that. You mean I want

it to be this routine, this practice

that I do consistently. But like writing

every day is never going to be mindless

the way that brushing your teeth is. You

know, going to the gym is not going to

be automatic the way that tying your

shoes might be. And so the things that

we there's a little bit of sloppiness in

the word habits and how we use it in

life. It's not they're not automatic

mindless routines most of the time. Most

of the things that we want to be habits

are not like reflexes. They're routines

and rituals that we do consistently.

>> So having said that, it is true that

after you've gone to the gym for a month

or two, it does start to get easier. And

I think there's a number of forces that

kind of work in your favor there. One is

you figured a lot out about uh what it

takes to get into the gym. What time am

I going? What route do I take? How do I

pack my bag? Do I need to bring a water

bottle or is there a water fountain at

the gym? Like all those sorts of things

are little one-time costs that you got

to figure out early on that once you're

into a pattern, you already know them.

>> You know, the water bottle thing sounds

like a small thing. I heard from someone

who said, "I always forget to bring my

water bottle and they don't have water

fountains at this gym." So like I I

sometimes I skip the workout because of

that. You know, it's like it's

remarkable how little friction it takes

to pull us off course. Mhm.

>> And so figuring out all of those things

is something that once you're a month or

two in, you've crossed all you've, you

know, you've fought all those battles

and now you know how to do it. So that

makes it easier. The other thing is you

start to build friendships, start to

build connections, you start to know the

people there, you feel comfortable

there. There's this concept Steven

Presfield talks about where u you know

if you have a wolf and it's roaming

around uh eventually it starts to feel

like it has its territory and early on

in a process a creative process writing

a book or whatever you go into the

office the first time to write the first

chapter of the book and you kind of feel

uncomfortable it feels like it's not you

yet you go to the gym on the first day

you feel like people are judging you do

I look stupid I don't know how to do

this but after a while it becomes your

territory it's just like the wolf it

starts to feel like your home court and

so That familiarity I think also makes

it much easier to stick to the habits,

you know, once you start to feel

comfortable there and that takes a

little bit of time. And then the last

piece is identity. The more that you

start to follow this habit, the more you

repeat a habit, the more you reinforce

being that type of person, the more you

start to have that element of your

story. I think this is one of the most

important things for building habits and

getting habits to stick, which is how

your habits reinforce your desired

identity. We often start by asking what

do I wish to achieve? But I think what

we really should start with is who do I

wish to become? What are my actions

reinforcing? What are my actions taking

me closer toward? In a sense, every

action you take is like a vote for the

type of person you wish to become. So,

no, doing one push-up does not transform

your body, but it does cast a vote for

I'm the type of person who doesn't miss

workouts. And no, writing one sentence

does not finish a novel, but it does

cast a vote for I'm a writer. And no,

sending one bit of positive feedback

does not make you like the world's best

leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm

the type of leader who cares about their

teammates. And individually, those are

small things, but collectively you build

up this body of evidence for being that

kind of person.

>> It's a little bit [clears throat]

different than what you often hear. Like

you often hear people say something like

um fake it till you make it.

>> And I don't necessarily have anything

wrong with fake it till you make it.

Like it's um asking you to believe

something positive about yourself. But

behavior and beliefs are a two-way

street. And so what you believe

influences the actions you will take.

And the actions you take also influences

what you will believe. And my

encouragement, my suggestion is to start

with the action. To let the behavior

lead the way. To make one sales call or

meditate for one minute or do one

push-up and let that in that moment be

evidence that you were that type of

person. You know, if you go outside

today and you shoot a basketball for

five minutes, you don't instantly think,

"Oh, I'm a basketball player." But if

you do it every day for next three

months or six months or a year, at some

point you cross this invisible threshold

where you have to admit, I guess playing

basketball is like kind of an important

part of who I am. You know, I guess it's

part of my identity. And once you adopt

a habit as part of your story, once it

becomes part of how you see yourself,

it's not just like I need to go for a

run. It's like I am a runner, you know,

I go I do this because this is part of

who I am. Then you'll fight to maintain

the habit, right? Like then then it

becomes easier for it to stick. And so

the connection between habits and

identity I think is ultimately how you

really get habits to stick for the long

run.

>> It reminds me of a study I was reading

recently that said if you speak to

someone in terms of giving them an

identity versus

using a word as an adjective the

behavior occurs. So an example would be

if I you do something for me and I say

do you know what James you are a kind

person

>> in the studies people become more kind.

But if I say that was kind

>> or that action was kind people are less

kind. So if I if I can give you feedback

that embodies your identity, then you're

more like likely for that behavior to

occur. So with my team, and this is

maybe giving a bit of the game away,

>> I will often refer to them as an

identity. I will say you are an

innovator.

>> You are an experimental because from the

studies I've read that increases the

probability that they embody that

identity.

>> There's another study that um did it for

voting. So people were more likely to go

and vote if you said like I am a voter.

You got them to identify as I'm a voter

rather than are you voting today? Um,

and so same same thing. There's an

example in Atomic Habits I talk about.

Imagine two people who are trying to

quit smoking, you know, and so the first

person gets offered a cigarette and they

say, "Oh, no thanks. I'm trying not to

smoke." Um, and the second person gets

offered and they say, "Oh, no thanks.

I'm not a smoker." And so the first

person is trying to resist something

that they still see themselves as, but

the second person no longer sees

themselves as the type of person who

smokes. And um yeah, some of the

evidence and research suggests that once

you adopt those identities, it's it's

easier for you to stick to the behavior.

>> Reminds me of the research from Leon

Festinger, the guy that came up with the

term cognitive dissonance.

>> The way that I understand the concept of

cognitive dissonance is that if I have a

perceived identity of myself and

something external threatens that or

challenges it, we're not good at living

in contradiction. I'm not good at So,

for example, I'm a an accountant right

now and I hear that AI is doing

accountancy work amazingly well. Now,

I've invested 10 years in that

accountancy degree. I see myself as a

great accountant.

My my my sort of initial reaction will

probably be to either dismiss my current

identity as a great accountant that

that's going to have a great career in

the future or to dismiss the AI. And he

talks, well, people that have studied

his work talk about how we're very poor

at being able to hold two contradictory

things to be true at the same time. So,

um we tend to protect our identity.

>> Yes. Um, there's something incredibly

powerful about this that also ties into

habits, which is that a lot of our

identity, not not the whole thing, but

large portions of our identity are tied

to our relationships. You know, I'm a

father, I'm a, you know, husband, I'm a,

you know, and so like it's the

connection that we have with others. Our

social bonds influence the picture that

we have of ourselves.

>> This is something that widely influences

our habits, you know. So, we are all

part of multiple groups. Sometimes that

group is large, like what it means to be

American or what it means to be British.

Sometimes that group is small, like what

it means to be a neighbor on your street

or a member of this family or a member

at the local CrossFit gym. But all of

the groups that you belong to, large and

small, have a set of shared expectations

for how you act. Have a set of social

norms for what you do in that group. And

when your habits go with the grain of

the expectations of the group, they're

pretty attractive. You know, like you

want to stick to them. You get praised

and rewarded for it. You fit in. And

when they go against the grain of the

expectations of the group, they're kind

of unattractive. You get criticized and

it doesn't feel good. And so if people

have to choose between, I have habits

that um I want, but I'm cast out, I'm

ostracized, I'm criticized, or I have

habits that I don't really love, but I

fit in, I belong, I'm part of something.

Most of the time, the desire to belong

overpowers the desire to improve. And so

you want to do something different, but

you also know you're going to be heavily

criticized for it or you're going to at

least add friction to your

relationships. And we don't want to live

with that dissonance. That dissonance of

I could have this, but I also create

friction here. One of the lessons I

think one of the big takeaways if you

want to build better habits and get

habits to stick particularly for the

long run is you want to join groups

where your desired behavior is the

normal behavior. join groups where you

can rise together, where the people that

you're surrounded by have the type of

habits that you want to have.

>> It reminds me of this um this thing that

appeared in Jeff Bezos's shareholder

letter about resisting the equilibrium.

>> H I I didn't know about this. Go ahead.

>> So, in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter,

he writes to shareholders that when

referring to Amazon's ability and desire

and need to innovate through the future,

he says he makes a comparison to Richard

Dawkins book called the I think it's a

blind clock maker. Uh yeah the yeah

blind watchman

>> blind watchman. Yeah yeah yeah yeah and

says that essentially all living

organisms live in this constant battle

to resist their equilibrium and actually

death itself is when we become our

environment because right now me and you

have huge amount of energy expenditure

to be different from our environment in

terms of temperature in terms of acidity

etc. And he he's making the comparison

which sounded a lot what like what you

just said that if you want to that all

living organisms are in this constant

battle to be different from our

environment. Um and that the more

different our environment is the harder

the fight. So if I go to the desert my

body has to put put out even more energy

to be a different temperature to be a

different sort of acidity than the

environment. But if I want to make my

life easier and make that fight easier,

then go into an environment where my

environment is the same as my internal

my internal state.

>> That's great. The I think that punchline

of the more different your environment

is from the habits that you want to

build or from whatever equilibrium

you're trying to achieve, the harder you

will have to fight to maintain.

>> And that is a fight that you can do for

I don't know a day, a week, a month, but

it's some limited amount of time. At

some point it just is draining to try to

grind against the environment all the

time. Sometimes I view environment both

physical and social almost like a form

of gravity. You know, like the the

physical environment that we're in right

now, okay, that's always nudging you in

certain directions. Like I'm I'm sitting

in this chair right now talking to you.

I could be sitting anywhere else, but I

would have to sit on the floor, right?

The the environment of the chair is

ushering me to this spot. It's almost

like a form of gravity pulling me here

rather than getting me to go somewhere

else. When we leave this room, if I

wanted, I could try to do something

crazy and break through a wall or climb

through the ceiling or whatever, but I'm

going to go through the door because

that's where the environment is

naturally nudging me toward. It's the

where that behavior happens easily. And

all of our spaces are like that. You're

always being kind of pulled toward what

is natural and easy and consistent in

that environment. So, how can you prime

your environment to make those the

things you want to do? That's for

physical environment. Social environment

is the same. You know, it's all you're

always kind of being pulled toward what

the behaviors are that are natural

there. What are the social norms? What

are the things that people get praised

and rewarded for? What are what is the

culture typically calling you to do? And

that's where I think the answer is you

want to surround yourself with groups

who have the behaviors you want to have.

Join groups where your desired behavior

is normal. If it's normal in that group,

then you can rise together. So, I mean

that that must mean getting rid of

certain people in one's life. And

sometimes those people are hard to get

rid of because their families, their

moms, their dads.

>> Sure. And I, you know, I'm a little uh

sometimes you hear people say things

like, "Fire your friends," you know, or

whatever. Like, and I I I'm not I'm not

all the way there. Uh I I think that

yes, it is true. Sometimes you have um

an extreme circumstance where it's a

particularly toxic person or something

like that. And yeah, like you know, you

probably maybe should not be around them

and that those can lead to very hard

decisions. But I would say for the

majority of life and the majority of

your relationships, what we're really

talking about here is not getting rid of

relationships. We're talking about

finding specific places where that habit

can thrive. So here are some examples.

There's a number of studies that have

shown that it tends to be easier to

build a new habit in a new environment.

So for example, if you Well, first let

me back up. There's an interesting way

to define what a habit is, which is that

it is a behavior that is tied to a

particular context. So, for example,

your habit of watching Netflix might be

tied to the context of your couch at 7

p.m. And whenever you walk into your

living room and you're by your couch and

it's in the evening, you're kind of

naturally being pulled toward picking up

the remote and doing that because that's

the context the habit happens in. So, if

you want to build a new habit, and

again, these studies have found that it

tends to be easier to build a new habit

in a new environment. Well, let's say

you want to start a habit of journaling.

Well, you walk into your living room in

the evening and you sit down on the

couch and you're like, I'm going to

start journaling. But you're naturally,

you know, your brain is kind of like,

well, it's time to pick up the remote

and turn on the TV. That doesn't always

mean that you need a brand new space,

like a new building or a new room to do

every habit in. But you could do

something like you could get a chair and

put it in the corner of the room and

that becomes the journaling chair and

the only thing that you do when you sit

in that chair is you journal for five

minutes. So now you have a new context

that is tied to the behavior that you

want to perform. And in the social

sense, so this is what we were talking

about previously. You want to be able to

create a space that is a safe place for

that envir for that habit to live or for

that habit to thrive. say um sometimes

there those spaces are ready made like

uh let's say you want to do yoga four

days a week but you look around your

family or your friends in your apartment

that you're living nobody else is

interested they don't want to do it too

you do it in the living room you kind of

get made fun of or you're stepping on

other people's space they're like I'm

trying to do stuff in here too you know

it's just kind of inconvenient well you

can go to a yoga studio and that's a

place where for that hour you can be

surrounded by a group where your desired

behavior is normal you don't have to

fire any of your friends um and you can

just go to the place where that happens

that can thrive. And I think each habit

likes to have that. It likes to have

somewhere where it can exist in a way

that it's going to be supported or in a

way where the environment makes it easy.

Sometimes the environment is readyade

like that. Other times it's not. So for

me, one of the most useful things that I

did in my entrepreneurial career, I had

I had no entrepreneurs in my family, no

authors. So I had this thing that I kind

of wanted to do, but I I didn't have

anybody close to me that I could like

look to. first six months that I was an

entrepreneur, I sent like 300 cold

emails just to other people that were

like a year or two ahead of me. Someone

who seemed like you're actually doing

this thing where, you know, you've got

this online audience and you're you're

writing about stuff you like. Um maybe

30 people got back to me. I did like a

little, you know, Zoom call or whatever

and, you know, we chatted and connected

and then I met some of them at a

conference like six months later. So I

was six months in. I knew like maybe 10

people that I had met in person and I

had like 30 that I had reached out to.

So now it feels like okay at least I

know a couple people who have done this

thing and I started hosting these

retreats every once or twice a year I'd

get six or eight authors together and

I'd say let's just rent an Airbnb. We'll

split the cost and we can talk about how

to build an audience and how to grow

your you know email list and how to

write a book and launch it and you know

all the stuff that we were kind of

focused on. It was almost always like

the best six month uh best weekend of my

year. Um because I would have six months

worth of stuff that I need to execute on

after that was done.

>> That's kind of like going to a yoga

studio for yoga, but you had to create

the space. I was always worried that I

was going to look like some dork, you

know, and like invite everybody and they

would all say no or whatever. But

everybody wants the same thing. You

know, they're all waiting for somebody

to create the space for like-minded

people to get together. So sometimes you

need enough courage to create the space

yourself. But the punch line is the

same, which is you're trying to surround

yourself with people where your desired

behavior is the normal behavior.

I've had so many founders speak to me

and say, "Why didn't this particular ad

that I ran on this platform work for

me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good. The

creative wasn't strong. But usually the

problem is they're not having the right

conversation because that ad never

reached the right person. And if you're

in B2B marketing, that is much of the

game. And this is where LinkedIn ads

solves that problem for you. Their

targeting is ridiculously specific. You

can target by job title, seniority,

company size, industry, and even

someone's skill set. And their network

includes over a billion professionals.

About 130 million of them are decision

makers. So when you use LinkedIn ads,

you're putting your brand in front of

the right people. And LinkedIn ads also

drive the highest B2B return on ad spend

across all ad networks in my experience.

If you want to give them a try, head

over to linkedin.com/diary.

And when you spend $250 on your first

LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an

extra $250 credit from me for the next

one. That's linkedin.com/diary.