i remember writing hold back the river

and everybody at the label jumping for

joy and thinking that they had a hit on

their hands

i dreamt about being on those stages in

front of all the people that my heroes

were in front of

i remember this burning desire i was

dead certain that i wanted it more than

everyone

chaos in the calm comes out debbie is

the number one that's crazy and the

winner is jasper thank you so much this

is insane nobody could have made us

understand it was going to be traumatic

who i was

on the chaos and the calm campaign i

needed to stop all of that for my soul

and my mental health yeah it's pretty

[ __ ] intense

ed sheeran invited me to open for him in

football stadiums around europe and the

bit i hate to admit and i'm anxious to

confess is that

life can take a toll on people to be

male and talk about your

feelings it was more about can you suck

it up though it's all like an act

would you do it all again

i'm really concerned about what happens

next

so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening

but if you are then please keep this

yourself

[Music]

james

so you're a 90s baby yeah 1990 same as

me 1992. okay what about those early

years

defined you

and the person you would go on to be

when you look back at the dots and say

well that that and that

is the reason i am who i am what are

those first dots i grew up in a in a

kind of commuter belt town called

hitching in hertfordshire which is about

an hour outside of the centre of london

i hated going into london it's horrible

busy noisy smelly awful

the quiet calm of my little hometown was

perfect it was safe

pretty much safe

um

i'm the youngest of of me and my brother

um and then there's my parents my mum

and my dad and we don't have

my i only have one cousin who was born

10 years after i was born

so we were small family it wasn't a big

crowd it wasn't the sort of noisy

experience growing up uh in that respect

my parents are pretty fiery people

and

they're kind of

party animals in a way they they're very

social

they're very loud and and and um kind of

excitable

so i feel

that that was going on all the time they

had people around all the time and they

kind of i suppose inspired me and my

brother to sort of be okay in all sorts

of social situations

and uh

i think all kids myself included go

through moments of shyness and moments

where they're a little more outgoing

than maybe a little more shy again than

outgoing again

i remember most vividly the sort of

shire times and i stood behind

my older brother

who would lead

nine out of 10 times into any situation

with other kids or whatever

so i felt

i was a more timid

person

gentle

compared to my parents and my brother

who were more

um

just louder

well your parents affectionate

in a kind of

uh

i want to say like wartime ways stiff

upper lip kind of way my

dad was older than other dads

um still a great dad

but he might you know he was 42 when i

was born

uh he's nearly 75.

and

he comes from like very well his parents

were

you know his dad was flying

fighter planes in the second world war

most of uh

my friends

parents

parents parents like there's there's

another generation usually involved

whereas for me it was my dad's dad who

was doing that

so

my parents come from this

you've asked if they were affectionate

uh they were affectionate in their sort

of steely way

[Music]

it wasn't

it wasn't

sweet and sugary

and cuddly

to be honest

for example

when i showed some vague interest in

performing of any kind

my mum

was less oh that's nice she wasn't

really that wasn't her

energy her energy was like okay if

you're into it do it and do it like mean

it

go on

like it was it was with a bit of a smile

it wasn't like it was like it was

encouraging and i got on board with it

but um

ultimately it was like

if you're gonna give it a shot don't

don't do it by half

look at and she'd name any one of my

heroes

and or any one of her heroes musically

you know my parents are big music fans

she said look at what they give it

you've got to give it that

and without quite saying it she was

saying

you know you have to be believable it's

all like an act

um so

affectionate

they were encouraging and and they were

excited by for example when i got into

music and wanting to play an instrument

and performing and all that they were

excited about it i think but they

weren't like if i wasn't into it they

weren't

you know if if

the one and a half times in the early

early days that i kind of went oh i

don't know if i want to play guitar

actually it's probably a bit hard they

weren't like oh

and they weren't saying try harder then

they were just like

okay

what about your dad then when he finds

out that you want to be you know you

might want to pursue that avenue well

one thing my dad and both my parents um

said a lot about

and kind of required of me

was that i would do something to earn

some money and actually go back to i was

12 or 13

when they first said pocket money's done

and i think i know a lot of kids who are

getting that until sort of 16 at the

time

some of them longer

because there was various kids whose

parents weren't

they didn't need their kids to get a job

they just wanted their kids to be kids

and

have a nice time and i guess it's not

that my parents didn't want me to have a

nice time but from like 12 years old

they were like there are jobs you can

get there's a paper round there's this

there's that and there was a my dad

who had loved music and going to see

music live since he was you know much

younger since way before me and my

brother came along

he was definitely like there's a job at

the market like so-and-so's kid is

working down at the market

go and ask him how he got the job try

and get the other shift and i did i got

that shift my brother got one of the

shifts as well and at 13

in january

at 4 00 am i was on my bike on the way

to the market in the dark

shivering my nuts off

i remember the like anxiety dreams that

i would have before getting up for that

because as a teenager i just wanted to

be asleep

for hours and hours and hours and you're

supposed to like we know more about that

now it's like really good for teenagers

to get as much sleep as they can kids of

any age but teenagers apparently very

important my dad didn't know any of that

not interested

you know if james wants to buy guitar

strings because he's snapping him off

his guitar all the time and i can't he's

like i can't keep paying for that

which i respect

i didn't know the time

um

my dad and my mum

but also because my dad had had jobs as

a as a kid you know helping someone a

like a

you know a corner shop or something he

he like heartily believed in that and

was trying to instill that in us

from clearly you know very early on

because whatever our hobby might have

been

he's like i don't want to have to fund

it

and i understand that we don't come from

money

you know we don't my mum was sometimes

working and sometimes not because you

know she was being a stay-at-home mom

half a time

um

but um my dad was was you know bringing

in the the big bit that that paid for

the family to sort of exist

um

yeah so he he was uh

he believed

as long as we could sort of fund the

things that we wanted to do more or less

then

they were doable

you talk a lot about how um having idle

time is really really important to

discovering who you are and being a

creative and

and finding yourself

something it's actually a concept that

i've not really heard before talked

about from from my guests is the

importance of just having

a window of time and i imagine even

today when it comes to creativity that's

that's maybe a big part of your creative

process can you talk to me about that

that early age then how idle time helped

you to become who you are

um

almost against the odds basically it

helped me become who i am today

and it helped feed my creative

everything um what do i mean by that

my mum's the type of person who so when

i was a kid in the house you know if i

if i was

having some idle time

another way to say that if i wasn't

doing anything

middle of the afternoon

she'd be on me like you know straight

away or my brother like what are you

doing

you can't do nothing

you could tidy your room you could come

and clean this thing for me you could go

out the back garden and do this thing

for me you could do that

what do you mean you're doing nothing

that's my that's a vivid memory

and it's not like unfair

i i respect it in certain ways but i

know as a at this point someone who's

sort of

professionally kind of creative and you

know wound up in a position where i can

sort of call that my job that it's very

important

to be staring out the window there was

some quote i can't remember who said it

and somebody told me the other day and i

haven't got any sort of reference names

for you sorry but a guy said uh let's

just say it was einstein einstein

perfect

um einstein's wife said to him what are

you doing he was looking out the window

he said i'm working

and that was it

and it's perfect for a creative that

because it's bang on

if i'm staring out the window into space

as the rest of us might say

then it just looks like i'm staring in

space

but i'm probably having an idea for a

song or a lyric or working something

over in my head i find it hard to say

that stuff to you or anybody without

worrying that i sound pretentious or

like a bit of a dick

um

but i know that's the experience when i

was a kid

thinking about something i wanted to

draw whatever it may have been and

having some of this like idol time

like i said my mum is like on me like

no that's not okay

so maybe that's why i

i'm sort of concerned even now

that i look

like a

pretentious

idiot no i i can i have to say i

completely agree and it's it's

logically it makes a ton of sense that

you have to clear the mind to allow new

ideas to arrive and that we all i mean

every business every person that works

in the business will know the best ideas

don't come from a boardroom they don't

come when you're trying to think of them

they come when you go for a walk or

you're in the shower yeah all these

places where you have that space yeah um

so it makes perfect sense i remember

david gilmour and pink floyd said every

time i sit down guitar in hand to write

a song in that really creative mood i

want to write a song and i'm going to

and it's going to be great nothing comes

and it's it is generally that way

so it's quickly a long time ago it

quickly made me understand and sort of

cherish the opportunity to

sit around

with the tools nearby

and just exist and think and dream

and

play

by which i mean play guitar play music

but just play

creatives and just people generally i

think

have a lot of guilt

associated with

just sitting around but it seems to be

so incredibly imperative to creation

it's a huge huge part of it it's

probably 95 of the reason why it ever

works if it ever works

95 of it is about

having you not not watching a clock

not there not being any sort of

consequence and we put i put hundreds of

consequences on myself

we all do

um

but as soon as you do those things

the kind of the quality

starts to sort of

lessen

um

so yeah it didn't help that experience

when i was a kid

of my mum sort of going no no no no no

get yourself busy yeah you got you know

if you're not you know it was almost if

you're not if i don't see you kind of

playing and and and getting something

from the playing then you're not

spending your time you could be helping

me you could be doing this you could be

doing that is there is there a is there

some homework you haven't done and yeah

there probably was like hundreds of bits

of homework i hadn't done but i was

already so into

trying to write a song or get better at

playing the guitar or being creative in

some other way

that of course i was pushing the

homework under the rug

um

but that

unfortunately that that even that small

sort of pressure that i felt then has

ended up as like so many like you say

you've met so many creative people who

feel that sort of guilt

it has um

heightened the sense of guilt so it's a

strange one to juggle

and uh

and i find myself fighting against it

and that's a that's really inconvenient

to what i'm trying to do

as a passion and actually for a living

suddenly

what insecurities did you have at that

young age i spend a lot of time talking

about all of mine but no man someone

about your theirs um

insecurities i had an insecurity so in

school in like primary school as a young

kid

i was um i was a fast runner

i was good at drawing and painting i had

this a selection of things that i was

good at and like the talk in the

classroom was that i was the best at

running

i was one of the best at football i was

the best at drawing

and i'm not fully sure how

but that started quickly to really

matter to me

to the point that as far as you know

what insecurities did i have

i

i think back

about the worries that i had about what

if one day i'm not the fastest

and what if somebody draws something

better than me

and i hate to admit that i don't know

why i felt those things

but

i had i had an ambition and a dr and a

drive

that

wanted to

be really really good

at

these things um

and as a kid yeah i wanted to sort of be

able to feel like i was the best at them

why do you know why i don't know well i

know it's dangerous territory is what i

wanted to say i know now as an adult

that's dangerous territory

because there's enjoying things and

being really good at them

and then there's a there's a difference

between that and whatever somebody

decides is the best why

one

theory as to why

one of my theories i suppose just as i

think about it now

is that i could maybe then sort of

maybe i could validate

idle time

i think i really enjoyed

and to this day i really enjoy

are having an endless amount of time and

space to create

and i'll throw that thing about being

the fastest runner sort of off the table

for a minute because it doesn't really

sort of relate to the context of

the other things i loved then that have

sort of fed through into my life now

um

why why why was i why did i worry about

that stuff

but yeah i wanted to i wanted if if i

could be if i could say people think i'm

really good at this then i could have

a reason

for why i

should be allowed any amount of time

to focus on them

and you could present that evidence to

who

my parents

anybody

trying to stop me doing it

a part of my conscience because i have a

conscience that feels guilty if i i'm

looking at the clock all the time it

made me a very punctual person

but i also look at the clock out of

paranoia how much time have we got how

much time have i got and it shouldn't

matter at all to creativity that

but i find myself doing it all the time

you know i actually i i have a baby now

we have a nine-month-old daughter and

and and um adam ada adam

some people do pronounce it some of you

it is much better to be fair i learned

this but um

lucy went out to kader out the other day

and because lucy's the absolute greatest

she was like it'll just give you a load

of time to just

have a guitar

you know next to you and think about

the things that you sort of you see what

i'm getting at she just gave me

hey you just do you for a bit

and gift it's a it's a that was a uh

incredibly generous given now i know

what it's like to be you know a

first-time parent and it's it's a it

takes a village um

uh

and still an hour into that time i knew

i was an hour into that time because i

looked at the clock

i didn't need to

but i still carry it

uh

it's [ __ ] frustrating

was there any anyone in your circle at

that early age that made you feel like

that wasting

weight quote wasting time or not using

time in a evidently productive way was

meant that you were a lazy person yeah

is that it was

that was part of the language of of of

who and what i grew up around

um

you know

yeah like i say like we didn't we

weren't a sort of

we weren't like a particularly wealthy

family neither were any of the sort of

friends that that

that my family had or that you know

everyone was somewhere between

working class and sort of just about

middle class

but i felt a lot of penny pinching all

the time partly probably because of what

my parents come from so how they operate

so and it felt like middle class

came like later in life

i think my parents are there now but

like that's slightly sort of besides the

point what i mean is

um

time was precious

uh

and you had to the the the language

around

idle time was you know don't waste it

before anybody had thought about what

anybody was doing with idle time they

were already being told not to waste it

that was a that was

yeah in my wider circle as a kid

around you know my my family and my

family friends and friends of friends

that was the energy

so there was like a pressure

and there was of course yeah a narrative

that that said

oh he just sits around all the time he's

so lazy not directly to me necessarily

but if anybody was doing any sitting

around of any kind for any prolonged

amount of time

lazy

guy so it was a negative thing

and i felt a pressure and a sort of

self-conscious

need to stay away from that

while all the while i absolutely kind of

craved it for for being a creative kid

who wanted to draw and paint and explore

music did you get the impression that

people in your family and close to you

had high hopes for your future

you know i do think

that they thought i really wanted

the kind of things i've achieved

i do think that they believed i wanted

this stuff

and i think they saw that

in my

how how i went about my days

um

i remember a friend of mine who's still

such a good friend of mine matt

we learned to play guitar together me

and tom who i mentioned who who plays

bass in my band

and and matt and my brother alex and i

you know we were all playing guitars at

the same time learning to do this that

the other

and me and matt were doing our gcses and

we were in like a biology class

we did the same we had the same science

class

and we were talking and matt is a

brilliant beautiful soul

who

is sort of

he's a total party animal but he's

wonderfully sort of earnest in his own

way as well

and we were we were sharing the

pressures of what we're supposed to do

after our gcses after our a-levels are

we going to do uni oh my god who are we

going to be what are we going to do

and he said man

one thing's for sure i don't think

you'll ever have an office job

and i knew how he meant it and i really

i really appreciated it and i've never

forgotten it and i think i've i've

brought it back to him i've brought it

up with him again

since

and in a strange way it felt like he was

a guy you know you asked what my parents

would say well he

was someone who was very close to me at

the time as well

who i felt believed in me

what's funny is he was one of 10 of us

who were all starting to play the guitar

at the same time we all

looked at

jimi hendrix or the red chili peppers or

any of our our rock heroes

in the same way and we wanted it we

wanted that because you do when you're

14. yeah i want to do that

and i remember this burning desire

and i can't tell you even to this day

whether it was the same or less or more

than any of the other guys

but in the moment i was dead certain

that i wanted it more than everyone

and i did sit with my parents some

nights with some music on the tv or on

the radio or or coming off the record

player

and almost get emotional about how badly

i wanted to do that kind of thing make

that kind of

sound like when i grow up was the sort

of thing i was saying

and they didn't take the piss out of me

they were very straight faced about it

i think they like i think it excited

them and obviously they had no idea if

it was actually going to happen

but

they did encourage it so

my very long-winded answer to your

question if you called them up is

yeah i think they i think they

would have believed or hoped that i'd

sort of got close maybe even half as

close as i've come

um

yeah and off you go to study music right

in brighton

um

it's it was it's really a wonderful

thing to hear that one of the real sort

of catalyst moments in your early career

was

just a clip of someone some punter in a

pub recording you

singing yeah that ended up on youtube

youtube and i will say it was at a time

when

there were youtube sensations popping

into the charts getting signed by big

record labels very exciting because they

got 500 000 views overnight they put the

video up at 7 pm and by 7 am add million

views had 2 million views

that video that went online with me it

was there for six weeks or more

25 views maybe

maybe 26 views

um

and i didn't i wasn't i hadn't thought

about it i met the guy because he filmed

me and he said i'll put it online

you know he'll do like a little sort of

filter on it little edit

thanks man

great i'm just glad you you liked my

song

and i didn't hear about it until this

record label found it with its 25 views

and they called up my manager i had a

manager at the time still same manager i

got today

called him up and said we'd love we love

this we'd love to meet you meet james

um

can we fly you to new york which was a

sort of that's where they were based

that the record label it was just a very

whirlwind exciting experience just to go

and meet these guys they just wanted me

to come and sit and sort of play for

them like in the flesh

and um and so i did and they went on to

be the label that i signed to after a

second visit and it was all very

exciting given that it feels like you

know that was one of a million open mic

nights that i was performing at at that

time just rolling up putting my name

down playing three songs moving on to

the next one what has that taught you

about

knocking on doors and you never know

which one's gonna open you know what i

mean because

as you say people look at that and go

are [ __ ] so lucky you know but um

what does that what has that told you

about

the nature of how life happens and

i guess it's taught me to use the idle

time

my idle time in that in those years was

long empty evenings

that i filled with finding open mic

nights

to hone my craft sounds a bit

pretentious again but it's exactly what

i was doing it's exactly what i was

doing and it's exactly what i'm doing at

every gig i do today the only difference

is that there seems to be some people

today who are actually there to see me

and they've done a bit of homework they

say they like my songs and that's so

flattering but every single show i do to

this day i just want to be a bit better

i just want to deliver a slightly more

effortless every time more effortless

hopefully more moving

and enjoyable experience for the people

standing in front of me back then

it was seven or eight maybe 11 or 12

people smattered around a bar privately

trying to have a drink probably after

work trying to catch up and i'm in the

corner

barking

and they have they don't know who i am

and they haven't they haven't paid to

see me or anything and

i want their attention

and i don't just want their attention i

want the thing that i've written to be

good enough to effortlessly turn their

head

that's how it has to go

and i had a lot of time to fill with

those

um trials it was all trials uh it's all

training

um so i did and i remember earlier than

when that thing was when that guy filmed

me in that bar i remember years before

that when for example i was taking a

couple of originals and a couple of

covers to an open mic night and people

really enjoyed my delivery of the covers

which was really encouraging

um

and then i'd do an original they i i'd

play the verse and they just talk

talking away and i play the chorus and

they're still talking then i'd play the

bridge

and a few heads would turn and i think i

go home that night thinking the bridge

has got something but the other bits

need work clearly the other bits need

work because i didn't have them in the

verse and i didn't have them in the

chorus

but i had them in the bridge

and that's why it was all training and

so i go home this is when i'd moved to

brighton actually particularly

i had a lot of idle time between lessons

and

the course i was doing

and i filled it with just trying to be

better just soaking up i was going to

record shop this is just right before

streaming sort of exploded

uh it wasn't like a thing so i was

buying records still

um

the difference i suppose for my

generation at times i put them on my

computer and stick on my mp3 and i could

walk around without a stack of cds in my

pocket

or in my bag anyway

i was soaking up as much as i possibly

could

[Music]

just trying to get better trying to

create

a more

enjoyable experience for anybody who's

in front of me because that's all i love

about music

and that's what i want that's why i want

to do it because

for some reason i want to be able to

create that for other people

people often overlook that part but it

seems to be if there was a sort of a

through line or a common

thread between all the guests i sit here

with whether they're comedians or their

music artists the ones that have become

really successful and also really unique

and

and yeah unique is the right word really

unique

is you get this like bit before where

they were

performing to no one and kind of just

doing it for the love of it for

themselves and it seems to be that that

in fact that moment is the defining

moment when no one's there when there

isn't the arenas and there's that part

there that 10 000 hours part that they

talk about

is the most important part

somehow i think it probably is

everything that might follow that or

that does or everything that followed

that for me has been so important

but there are moments in the very

beginning for anybody whatever they're

doing that are vital to how to what

happens next

um

10 000 hours is is the right like

description and reference

um

and all those open mic nights

and i was busking when i was in brighton

as well which is kind of wild you're

just walking down the street with a

guitar on your shoulder and then you

stop

amongst all the other people you're

walking next to and you have the balls

the confidence somehow the courage

to start singing at people in the middle

of the street

it was always terrifying until i was

sort of

getting into the first chorus of a song

and then i could almost sort of blend in

um

but but give it some to try and catch

some people anyway

those all of that those times

they are vital

it's about

learning about what doesn't work it's

about sometimes you know

there's people who are like

hell-bent on

talking over you and they've every right

to

they've every right to

um if they haven't come to see you

intentionally or or it's not a private

you know actual sort of venue where

people buy tickets to come up then

they've every right to and and it's how

it was always about how i managed in

those situations

i remember

going into noisy pubs that wanted to

hold an open mic night at the same time

and someone plugging me into a pa saying

go on i mean thinking this place is

rammed and they're all just having the

greatest night of their lives just

having a big old chat and they're

drinking their pints and all this and

i've gotta sing into this and i remember

being so excited

i remember thinking

i'm gonna get them all

i don't know that it worked every single

time but i i remember winning over rooms

and leaving so these weren't open mic

nights actually i remember in between

the open mic nights there'd be some

individual who'd seen me and say will

you come and play at my pub which felt

like a real win

will you come and play at my pub on

thursday night on saturday night

whatever it might be sunday night

i say yeah all right and half the time

they'd say there's 20 quid in it for you

and i say all right absolutely

play for an hour sure

you could pay me nothing to play for two

hours at that time and i'd have done it

i just wanted the opportunity the stage

the microphone the opportunity

and i remember yeah a couple of like

really busy rooms for the people who had

no idea who i was and i remember you

catch some eyes and people going oh

there he is you know another guy

plugging in a guitar

you know

let's all sort of speak up a bit when he

sort of pipes up

i remember thinking i'm gonna get you

it's interesting one of the really

interesting things i was just thinking

about as you're explaining that story is

how

the environment in which you started

your career in those pubs noisy pubs

trying to you know get people's

attention

you described it as actually changing

the music you would go home and say okay

the chorus held them yeah but this part

didn't so the environment actually

changed the creative because you you

realize that attention

you learnt very early that their tension

is is the thing we'll all listen to a

good song

yeah

but you know people forget the ones that

aren't good enough

that's a that's a a quite a sort of

brutal sort of comment in itself because

i i you know i can't guarantee that

every song i've ever written will hold

every room in the world every time

but i still love it enough to try it

again and try harder um so yeah it does

it does change to me it absolutely

changes the music because

until i changed those things

i was just playing i was playing

something that wasn't because i was

often going back to the same rooms

not always and it always eventually

changed but i would go back to the same

place because that's just another place

that i knew i could go and play a few

songs

um

and if across a two-week period i didn't

get around to changing some stuff and i

still played the same song then it just

wasn't every time it wasn't working

every time i was getting them for the

same minute in the song maybe it was the

second chorus or something so yeah it

you have to adapt if you just keep

taking the same thing and ultimately

flogging a dead horse

i was never if i kept doing that i was

never going to

be on any any of the stages that i'd

seen my heroes on you know when i was a

kid at home and i was being affected by

all that stuff i saw on tv on vh1 pop-up

video or even music in movies or or any

live stuff that i got to see on tv you

know that was broadcast on tv um i

dreamt about being on those stages in

front of all the people that my heroes

were in front of

so many people singing their words back

and i was never going to get there if i

just stubbornly took around the same

song that i wrote when i was 17 that i

might have thought in my heart of hearts

was so incredible

that doesn't matter i have to open my

mind up to what other people think and

accept it

i was trying to understand and learn

that as a 16 year old 17 year old before

i got to brighton um

when we were me and my brother and and

tom we were in a band as

13 14 year olds and then we were in

another one as 15 16 year olds and and

16 17 and to 18 into 19 then i left the

bands kept changing i just said another

one and another one often i was moving

it on

right because

uh

something wasn't quite good enough and

so i thought well let's change it into

this and let's change it into this thing

and let's tweak that bit and that bit

and let's make that bit better and we'll

change the band name and we'll be this

and it'll be fresh for people and then

we'll keep them

i don't know why i was thinking about

that back then in such a sort of like a

r kind of

mindset but

i was and i still sort of do

when you so six weeks after that clip of

you singing in a pub yeah um

six weeks after that clip goes online

you end up signing a record deal in new

york right yeah it was there was two

visits to new york so it was probably

more like sort of a couple of months two

or three years for the story to say six

let's go six

it was actually it was 98 days yeah

and four hours very quickly after that

clip you end up signing this record deal

and then soon after that your first ep

comes yeah to the world the dark of the

morning yeah

five tracks i listened to it earlier on

oh yeah

wasn't on spotify so i had to go on

sorry about the music there you go okay

you're only 16 quid

i wish it

thank you what was that like then that

first ep goes out into the world does

your life change at that point

um

there was a change

it all felt too fast i think once i once

i signed a record deal

as exciting as the initial sort of part

of the ride was

everything started to move quite fast

and in hindsight what i realized

i was nervous about the pace of things

but i had this

huge

um

i don't know what to call it it's a

record label obviously this this this

this huge like backing this body of

people

who wholeheartedly believed in me and

wanted to sort of throw me kind of in at

the deep end but really just sort of

throw me in the ocean

where it's all really going on i've been

like on the shore training open mic

nights little shows solo acoustic stuff

whatever writing trying to get better

staying up all night writing using all

that idle time learning to swim learning

to swim

and then they they basically looked at

me having visited uh new york a couple

times and played them some songs and

gone oh you're ready to be in the sea

you're not like surfing a big wave yet

but we're gonna put you in the c now and

i was like

whoa

um

so it it it was fast uh but within a

year you've got a headline sold out uk

tour yeah that was and and you know on

the one hand yes on the other hand it

was rooms full of 50 to 100 people but

they were all there to see me

for the first time ever

they were all they'd all bought a ticket

because somehow they found my music

they'd found the ep which again like

because of where streaming was at it

didn't go straight onto spotify and

apple and all that stuff

it was some like soundcloud like thing

it wasn't even soundcloud that it went

on to where people had to go and find it

and they think they hadn't they had a

choice maybe to pay pay if they wanted

to which is kind of sweet burn camp days

kind of yeah but it wasn't okay in camp

i mean i don't know i wasn't there yet

but

um

so i had those songs

and they they were like let's record

there was like couple of months between

signing recording that ep and releasing

it

it felt very fast and it was exciting

but yeah i've been in this training

mentality where which i was doing kind

of at my own pace i was trying to do it

all the time i was constantly training

as i say

but i didn't i didn't appreciate there

would kind of be an end to that in a way

in another respect i'm sort of still

training but at that time with what was

going on it was like no we're going to

step up a gear now and there's a few

more people involved and they're going

to push you onto bigger stages literally

and metaphorically

um

so

i didn't feel fully ready for it and i'm

kind of glad i don't think you're

supposed to ever be completely ready for

any of these things

things move even faster from then on

right because your

your second eb comes out let it go and

your album comes out in the same year

album was march 2015.

okay ep was was so same six months it

was 2014 into 2015. and uh let it go

um

had come out towards the end of the

summer before and and then and then

the album in 2015 and

uh

i remember let it go as a song

i loved the song i've never known really

i can't write a song and say that's a

hit guys

that's just not

i can't i don't do that um i've tried

i've tried but it's not really sort of

my calling to be able to do that i write

the songs and i remember writing hold

back the river and everybody at the

label and my managers everyone sort of

jumping for joy and thinking that they

had a hit on their hands which is very

exciting to be a part of and i think at

the time i thought really how do you

know that and then they worked they did

their thing they went to work and they

got that song around the world

and i got that song around the world i

suppose as well

um

and it kind of took off but let it go it

was an interesting moment because i

remember doing lots of different

festivals in america and all around the

world

i remember a place there's a festival

called outside lands which is in san

francisco or near san francisco

and um

i i got on stage in this sort of valley

type shaped bit of land

throughout this outdoors festival

because there were sort of banks of

grass at the sides quite a big stage and

it felt like quite a lot of people saw

three four thousand people i was like

wow this is exciting

and they all sang the words to let it go

every single word particularly the

choruses and we filmed it as well like

on my phone or whatever and it was

amazing and i came off stage and the

promoter said

i hadn't i hadn't met him i was like one

of the newer artists on the festival he

said that was incredible he said you're

in front of 20 000 people

i there like no way

i said they were all yeah they're all

singing the words he said yeah 20 000

people

singing the words he said we'll have you

back

i said thanks and i sort of went on my

way but um

that was a real moment where everyone

recognized that there was whole back of

the river and there was let it go as

well and let it go might be able to

carry this album as well so that was

things moved faster again i remember

actually as far as things moving fast

we got on a plane after that show in san

francisco at that festival we flew down

to l.a we crossed the airport we got on

a plane to australia we flew for 15

hours we did a show

in sydney

and then we got on a plane and we flew

back to l.a and carried on the tour so

we went to

sydney to do a show for about we went to

sydney for about barely 36 hours

30 of them are on a plane

where's the idle time

out of time on a plane is like not

whatever but it's all sort of cracked up

to be you can't get your guitar out and

start writing so um

i guess it's like emergency rest time in

a way and try and get your head down on

a plane which is as we all know kind of

tough but

um

yeah it idle time starts to sort of

disappear a little bit and it felt like

writing a song in a hotel room on tour

felt like such a heavy cliche to me that

i was never very good at that either

i've got better at it now

but we had a lot of time in hotels and i

was crap at using that that idle time to

to write more songs

what did you feel like throughout that

process so you put you know you put the

album out um

in 2015.

it was right so 2015 put the album out

that is a smash hit

um

let it go one of my favorite songs oh

it's so funny because when i listen to

that song it takes me back to so many

times in my life yeah so many times in

my life

i was listening to it before and i

almost start to feel the feelings of

like

the relationship heartbreaking that i

was going through when i was when i was

that age funny man bro i played that

song all the time

all the time thank you

it's funny how music has that power of

just sending you back to

for what it's worth just as a sort of

maybe an interesting little sort of side

fact i recorded that album at the end of

2013 and at the beginning of 2014. i

took two stints

and it came out in 2015 um but i

finished recording in january 2014.

uh

september 2020 was the first time i

listened to it after i finished

recording it well i just

i played those songs so much and i had

the time in my life but like i just i

didn't

you know it's gonna have something to do

with the bit of perfectionist in me and

we all have a bit of that but like

so much sort of pressure

and hype felt felt heaped onto that

first release for me that first big

album release

that i couldn't listen to it

and i still don't really i mean i don't

i suppose typically i don't spend my

time listening to my music once it's out

i have to do so much listening as we're

finishing the productions and the mixing

and then once it's out it's it's less

for me

it's so much for the fans but

the the frenzy around that music on the

first album

in a ways and i don't um

i don't resent anything or anyone here

but i it stopped me listening to it i

was playing those songs every day

somewhere in the world live

and um

yeah i didn't i didn't feel a need or a

desire to listen to it at all so it was

interesting

six seven years later listening sort of

for the first time and for the first

time listening and going this is decent

this is okay

work harder though keep trying that's

really the other voice that sort of

rings in my ears

chaos in the calm comes out

davey's number one

that's crazy

yeah wow the things that that sort of

does to

you emotionally and psychologically and

that i it's a it's a

it's a little bit of a trauma in its way

actually i was this not to sort of drop

names um that's not really my style but

i was at a show a great artist called

maggie rogers who was just fantastic i

know maggie and i'm a big fan at the

same time and i was watching the show

with sam smith

and niall from one direction um

three of us are watching the show in la

and it's like her her debut album show

and she's had a really great reception

particularly in america but in various

corners of the world as well

and it's a party it's like a big event

it's really fun and she's playing a

great show and sam said

she's about to go on a roller coaster

ride and it will involve trauma and it

is trauma he said

and we know all about it

each each one of us three he was talking

to me and niall he said we know

what that's like and he said we know

that nothing could prepare us could have

prepared us for it and that nobody could

have made us understand it was going to

be traumatic in a way

um beforehand

and we we we see it now with maggie and

we're fans of hers and we're so excited

and we can't you can't communicate that

to someone and because i use the word

trauma it's good and bad

and again i wouldn't change a thing and

i don't think sam would or nile or

maggie i don't think any of them would

change a thing about their ascents

that they went through

but you just said to me chaos from the

carmen's you know debut album went

straight to number one it did and it was

amazing

and i'm still trying to work it out to

this day

you know when i talk about sort of

trauma because it really affects and

changes

someone's life and changed my life

um and i love so much about what

happened and i would i would love to

experience that again

um but also it it changed so much about

me and my life

and i'm still trying to work that out

does any of that make sense all of it

makes sense cool the part of the trauma

that changed you

what is that part

great expectations follow

that's difficult

and i thought my duty

was to come with something brand new

again second album third album and i'm

i'm having a great time i've just put

out my third album and i'm i'm i can't

believe i even get to say that it went

in it was number four it's a top five

album not everybody got gets to say that

about their third album so i'm so

grateful for the reaction i really am

and yet there's a part of me that you

know

spent such a long time promoting that

first album after it came out that you

know

uh

i would like to create that exact same

experience again for different music

that i've made

that is easier said than done

every single time the chances of anyone

getting a number one album at any time

there's only one number one spot you

know

me

as a lover of so much music

with so many influences and inspirations

different artists records songs

i put a handful of those into

at the end of the day i put a handful of

those into my first album what inspired

it you know and then that created uh me

as an artist and i arrived you know the

shock of the new

on my debut album and a bunch of people

around the world said yeah

i'll buy that literally and

metaphorically i'll buy that i'm into

that

and i represented something to them

i can't believe that to this day i can't

believe i represented something to them

that they were willing to sort of buy

into and want to share and kind of agree

with and feel the words and the melodies

in in their way

and then another album it's time for

another album

it was about

showing a different side to myself

and i appreciate now in the fullness of

time with the greatest perspective or

with greater perspective

years after my second album release

that only i am in my head

nobody else is

so um

it was interesting who

uh received the second album who who

of all the people that got on board for

the release of my first album and

followed my music and me as an artist

some of them came for the second album

some of them i guess kind of went oh

it's not the same thing so

i'll just sort of come back when maybe

it's i don't i can't sort of speak for

people

but um

my expectation

naively was that i could do the same

thing again by surprising people with

something they hadn't had before because

they hadn't had my debut album before

and um

it didn't quite go

the way i hoped it would go

as i say that i don't want to sound

ungrateful because i had

so many people around the world

really love my second album

and i'm so grateful for those people

um

it peaked at number two in the album

charlotte yeah i can't i really cannot

complain in the slightest and when the

one above it is this it's a soundtrack

to a movie it was the greatest showman

that that just

reigned supreme for so long in 2018 at

the top of the charts there was various

number of other artists who didn't

unfortunately sort of beat

that soundtrack either so they all kind

of went to number two as well

but it did it peaked at number two

people loved it and they're still

telling me that they do and i'm you know

it's there's a there's a real sort of a

clash between

my gratitude towards all of those that

reception and the other part of my

brain that i suppose bought into the

hype of my first album and wanted the

same frenzy

in hindsight now if you could go back

and you could just move the order of

things

you know what i'm going to say right you

could just move the order of things

would you

maybe put you know

electric light first oh good i don't

know because then that would have

managed the expectations right the

expectations was always the curse of

happiness it's always the killer thing

because if i told you when you were

whatever age yeah your album would date

would peak at number two in the album

charts you'd be the [ __ ] moon i would

leak yeah

jump for joy yeah definitely

sorry that's awesome

we go again on that i would jump for joy

i did not mean that sorry but would you

move the order of things honestly no

no

no no no no no no

i wouldn't move the order of things at

all um because the psychological

difficulty

comes from

purely the fact that you have to almost

compete with your own success right yes

it does but it was all my choice at the

end of the day and i do stand by i love

electric light and um it came when it

came i i what's interesting is

electric light i'm so proud of and i

adore it every song it was also a

reaction to what i felt personally to me

was was like almost overkill on my first

album i had had enough

of

who i was when i was roaming around the

world

on the chaos and the calm campaign

what i represented and the songs that i

was playing

i needed to stop all of that for a

minute

for two reasons one it was exhausting

i'm

i keep wanting to throw this in i was

very grateful to have that experience

like beyond grateful

but i just for my soul and my mental

health i needed to

creatively kind of go elsewhere

um

uh so so

so i did and i also just had like i say

to you as a creative

more than one thing or one set of things

inspires me to do what i do

and i wanted to celebrate that in the

music i created for a second album

so i

went deep on david bowie and blondie and

prince and lcd sound system all that

list of artists and more i love love

that music

and uh

i don't know that that resonated in the

same way with all the fans of the first

album it certainly did with some of them

and maybe it didn't so much with others

um

i can't control any of that

the only thing i can control is what i

create

and that i do there is there is so much

of a part of what i create that i do for

myself which i think is the same for

every artist

um

so

so i chose to do that

uh

so you see what i'm saying in ways it

was a reaction

to

something i needed to do as a reaction

to how my first album campaign had gone

we wouldn't have changed the the things

around you know the order of things when

you when you spoke about mental health

yeah when was your first sort of

introduction to mental health good

question um because it of course has

become so

talked about in the last five years it's

suddenly become like

more okay than ever to speak openly

about it my first introduction to mental

health when i asked that question i mean

you're i remember at one point thinking

so the timeline of my relationship with

mental health is people with mental

health at one point maybe 10 15 years

ago when i was younger i thought it

meant that you were crazy and then as as

i experienced things myself and then

there was a word for them i understood

that we all have mental health yeah and

that we're all none of us are too tough

to experience different mental health

predicaments at times and then going

through my own journey with mental

health that's when i was like ah okay i

understand now

as a kid i thought it meant someone was

unhappy and you couldn't help them

depressed

and and unable to be helped um

and as i grew up

i remember struggling with you know as a

teenager

to be male and talk about your

feelings

wasn't

the should never be the sort of first

choice

i i remember feeling like it was

it was more about can you suck it up

though it's like your dad talking

my dad has been

been on his own journey with mental

health previous to me even being

born he he had some struggles and he did

he did talk to some professionals about

it and i really respect that

so actually it wasn't my dad talking

um

it's funny though

he comes from those kind of attitudes

both my parents come from those kind of

attitudes

you know

it's that stiff upper lip thing again

that kind of brush it all under the rug

thing again

i come from that

you know difficult things we don't talk

about then or we shout about them

no in between

and i didn't want the chaos of

the shouting as a kid and as a teenager

i never wanted that

it was always too much to deal with

so

i joined the sort of brush it under the

rug brigade

um

and

so it took me until i was into my 20s it

took me until i was touring

extensively and relentlessly

so really only five six maybe seven

years ago for me to sort of finally

understand that life can take a toll on

people

when it's when it when it's relentless

when work is relentless or when anything

in life is sort of relentless and

weighing down or bearing heavy

it can take a toll and it's okay

to talk about that to try and relieve

some pressure and some strain and some

stress

that came as a result of various

individuals that i was touring with or

that i knew doing their own touring

needing to stop for a bit

maybe speak to a therapist

to help them

and that it was okay

so it only came in the last sort of

few years for me

reading back through your story 2019 was

a bit of a mixture that's when you did

the tour with uh ed sheeran

and i i was reading about almost this

conflict that you're undergoing which is

i need to show up and perform and be who

i you know who i have this

responsibility to be but also this other

conflict of like you just weren't

feeling good

yeah

uh

i sort of encountered various sort of

people fans

or not or people i work with or people

interviewing me or whatever who and this

is ultimately like really quite

flattering they think i'm

you know

i don't know how to put it other than

like bigger than i feel i am

as an artist

i don't know if i agree with them

and so i felt like an imposter syndrome

essentially in that time

uh on the one hand i'm being you know

it's really disproportionate and and and

probably unhealthy when i think okay ed

sheeran has invited me to open for him

in football stadiums around europe for

three months there's 80 000 people every

night

wow

and the bit i hate to admit and i'm

anxious to confess is that there's a

part there's a voice in my head saying

why aren't you doing the stadiums you

call myself all sorts of names

why isn't it your show

come on

i feel

ridiculous saying that

i also just it's a little embarrassing

because

i'm doing good

and

i don't want to sort of get ahead of my

station or i don't want to seem like big

headed but i tell you i am very

ambitious and driven

everybody is i understand that and i am

in my way

and so i do want those kind of

uh

rewards of selling out such an enormous

venue and so many and so often

in the way that

he adds an example and and also i will

say that

he he was kind enough to have me on that

tour as the main support act who would

go on

right before him there was three of us

most of the time

you know open a second opener me the

third opener and then him

and it it was pretty

wonderful and exciting to find that in

in

almost every stadium it was it was a

third of that crowd which rounds out

approximately 20 or 30 000 people

singing all the words to my songs which

was just

again i was very thankful in that moment

that he brought me in front of such big

crowds because it was exciting to see

that i

my music was still reaching

and it stopped my ambitions and my drive

feeling silly

the bit the bit i was a little bit

confused about there is you're saying

you felt like an imposter in those

moments but the voice is saying so i

would expect the voice in your head to

be saying why are you here but the voice

in your head is saying why aren't you at

the top of the bell why isn't it your

show why don't you have your own stadium

show or you know even a you know arena

show or whatever it may be why your

crowd's not bigger yet james

gosh that's such an insidious thought

isn't it because

if you're

james bay big and you still

have that voice whispering about that

[ __ ] me yeah it's pretty [ __ ] intense

and i appreciate

that like

it's probably a bit cruel

cruel is a good word

it's just a it's a standard issue i

suppose it's a sort of sorry it's a

standards issue it's i i you know i'm

holding myself to a standard that

might be unrealistic but then i'm so

driven and i f or i feel so driven and

ambitious to achieve those kinds of

things that i can't shake that

voice

where's that voice coming from

deep inside um

deep inside because it's it's it's sort

of a voice i recognize from

various chapters of my life

uh

it's

on the one hand i was i was too sort of

timid and uninterested in in drinking

and partying as a teenager to sort of go

out and get amongst it on the other hand

that voice was talking to me back then

saying

don't waste your time doing that james

get better at songwriting get better at

singing get better at playing guitar

to the point where it's it's you know

you're able to confidently play well

and and make it look effortless

get to that point

and then you know then maybe we can have

a night off well you got to that point

i'm still i'm still yeah i'm still

working

in my mind is there not a bit of a fear

in in terms of listen if i'm if i'm

playing in a big arena there's 20 000

people they're all singing the words

back to me and i still have that voice

whispering inside my head saying this is

not enough or you've not achieved enough

then that voice will always be there

regardless of the the height or how high

you are i think so

i think therefore trying to kind of come

to terms with it is one of my big

exercises at the moment because it's

holding your happiness hostage right

kind of yes and i know that it's winding

up my managers for example who i've have

a very close and long-standing

relationship with people i cherish

and they're saying james like mate

um

you you've got to sort of reign that in

you've got to try and find a way to

round that in because

because it's okay

more okay then i've i'm i'm able to

realize half the time so

um

and i don't want to jeopardize my

relationship with them or or all sorts

of people

um

i'm working out therefore that i can

potentially control

some of the unhappiness

and and make my life better and easier

as a result

i'm just trying to

tame

the various voices

what do those voices say today

they say

some of them say well it's very nice to

be here

you've been invited to

talk on this on this podcast that's had

so many exciting guests

some of those voices say

yeah they just they had someone pull out

so they've got you last minute because

you know they you know there was someone

exciting who

who you know who clearly

you're a backup you're just you're just

a backup you know you're just somebody

who they thought all right i guess you

know there's a there's a voice that's

quite extensive in those kind of details

and and sort of takes me apart a little

bit

um so it's it's versions of one of that

one voice and it's versions of that

other voice that are

speaking

often in my head and and that's what

they're saying

all of these voices they have they have

adverse consequences some of those

consequences are positive

in the light of the world they turn into

drive and motivation or perfectionism

right which end up producing really

wonderful art obviously some of the

consequences of those voices can be very

um personally as it relates to your

happiness detrimental right

talk to me first about because i want to

talk about the positives that those

voices that have you know manifestation

on that side but talk to me about the

the

negative detrimental impact of being

having those voices

the longer i sort of exist with these

voices the the the the negative ones um

the more they can have an effect

unfortunately a negative effect the more

that they can sort of um

they can

stop me going out into the world and

doing certain things

you know the more they can get into my

head and sort of inhibit my ability to

sort of

speak to you in a free-flowing way for

example

or

um

go to a party i've been invited to by an

artist i might know or by by somebody

whose work i might admire i'm being sort

of hypothetical in that respect but it

could very much sort of be a that could

be a reality

and the benefits of coming and speaking

to you and the benefits of

going to some party or whatever

are just that those are the things that

color life and that's that's just a good

thing um

but sometimes the voices get so loud

that that i don't go and do these things

and i and and

i my life remains kind of gray

just personally and privately

and that's not helpful to when i get

that idle time back

in the moments that i do

because all the things that color life

feed

wonderfully in my most of my experience

into that idle time

whether i do create something or not

um

so they they are an obstacle they are a

barrier

those those negative voices and

i'm trying to grow and get better at

sort of managing them and dealing with

them

and understanding that no voices

no narratives kind of go away entirely

happy or sad

they they don't

you know 2019 was a difficult year and

i've learned since then

through various types of therapy

one of those is songwriting for me

another one is typical sort of therapy

as we know it speaking to somebody