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>> So, you had a pile of notes and then you

just folded them up. Like, did you

commit them to memory?

>> No, just these two things. I have the

links I sent you guys.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And just some stuff that

>> I just saw the pieces of paper that you

folded. I was like, what's in there?

That's just

how did first of all I want to I want to

talk you through like when you were a

younger man before you had looked into

this. What was your opinions on medical

science? What was your opinions on

vaccines? Were you skeptical or did you

just kind of assume that everything that

we're told is exactly how it is and the

experts have only the best interests of

human beings in mind and not not money?

>> I had what you would effectively call

the mainstream view. Vaccines saved

humanity.

>> Me too. we'd all be dead without him.

>> Um, you know, there are the uh there was

the Bible given at to Moses at Sinai and

then there were vaccines.

>> Yeah,

>> that's basically, you know,

>> I think it's anybody that didn't

consider themselves a fool.

>> You know, if you you would you'd have to

be a fool, like a real fool to ignore

all this medical science, which is the

reason why there's so many people alive

today that would have died. And a lot of

that's true. Look penicell and

antibiotics. There's a lot of stuff that

has saved a lot of people's lives. Um,

but the vaccine one until this COVID

epidemic, I would have never questioned

it. I mocked antivaxers. I was like,

"These people are silly. Don't they know

all the good things that vaccines have

done?" And the just the blatant

propaganda that we were forcefed like

one of those ducks are trying to make

fogwa with,

>> it just made me stop and pause and go,

"Is the whole thing like this? Is this

whole thing just a dirty money

laundering operation?

Because it kind of seems like that's at

least part of the reason why they were

telling people to get boosted when they

knew it wasn't working and and telling

young people that didn't needed to. They

wanted to make a lot of money. That's

the only reason why you would do any of

those things after a certain amount of

information is out. And so it just made

me stop and think about the whole thing

and go well why would I assume that this

is the one area where pharmaceutical

drug companies do doctor everybody's

been totally honest in this one area

when it's like a religious thing if you

question it and what that's the why I

love the title of your book.

>> Yes vaccines. Amen. The religion of

vaccines.

>> You it's that's what it is. It's a

religion for secular intelligent people

with a higher education.

And it causes incredible cognitive

dissonance for anybody out there to come

to the conclusion

that the CDC and the FDA and our public

health authorities and what the entire

medical establishment has been telling

you may not be accurate about vaccines

because like what you just said

the claim that you're a flatearther

you're an antiaxer

>> desert and not they're used as a way to

say you are really out there and dumb.

>> They're completely equal in their

impact.

>> And so it takes incredible cognitive

dissonance to say there are real

problems with vaccines.

But vaccines really sit in their own

little universe. They're unlike any

other medical product. They're not like

penicellin. They're not like any other

drugs. They're not like any other

product out there, any other product in

this room, anything out there. for one

major reason.

Every other product that exists,

I can sue the company. I can hold them

accountable

if that product injures or kills you or

your child on the basis that product

could have made safer. The only product,

and I mean this literally,

the only product in America

where you cannot sue to say had you made

that product safer, my child wouldn't be

dead, my child wouldn't be seriously

injured, they wouldn't have a

neurological disorder, they wouldn't

have immunological disorder, they

wouldn't have a nervous system disorder,

they wouldn't have a cardiac cardiac

issue. Our childhood vaccines and child

vaccines used by adults, it's the only

one. And that's because of a law called

the National Childhood Vaccine Injury

Act of 1986.

It gave pharma companies that incredibly

special immunity. Now, just to put that

into context, okay, and and I and I'll

tie this back in a second as to how we

ended up with this notion of uh this

belief religion in vaccines because, you

know, give an industry 40 years of

unopposed ability to influence, they're

going to get pretty dang far. And they

did with vaccines. And so um you know

a lot of industries

face a crossroads where their products

are causing more harm than good. Gas

tanks used to explode. What did they do?

They had a better gas tank. All right.

Building materials had asbestous caused

cancer. What do they do? They make a

better building materials. All right.

Did they give them immunity? No, of

course not.

But in the instance of vaccines leading

up to 1986, there were only three

routine vaccines. That's it. That's all

there was. A child following the CDC

schedule in 1986 got three injections on

or before their first birthday. Okay?

Those three products were causing so

much harm and injury

that every manufacturer of them went out

of business. And that was the MMR

vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine.

every single one from six down to one or

for the pure tesus vaccine six down to

one for measles about three downs one

for polio and with one company left for

each instead of forcing them to do what

every other industry has to do like I

said make better building materials

without asbestous make better cars that

don't explode go down the chain of

different products out there Congress

did something completely unique it said

you know what

we're just going to give you immunity

we're going to make it so that no

company, excuse me, no individual, no

parent, no child can sue you for the

injuries and deaths caused by your

vaccine products. That is what the

National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act

1986 did. And not only for those three

products, but for any other childhood

vaccine thereafter. And what that

effectively has done is given 40 years

for the industry to promote their

products, no push back. When you read

about a problem with a car, where are

you reading about it from? usually a

class action lawsuit in the paper,

right? Not going to read about that in

vaccines typically. And because of that,

you ended up where we are. Anyways,

there's a lot more detail to that, but

I'll stop there for now.

>> No, please keep going.

>> Well, I mean,

when you think about um what makes

product safer, right, because I've got a

I've got a law firm with overund

individuals. I'm the managing partner of

the firm. Half my firm does all types of

plate decide class actions. We can hold

companies accountable for almost

anything.

Your data, we do hundreds of data breach

cases, genetic privacy cases, do

biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds

all types of of of lawsuits like that

nature. By the way, and New York Times

loves those lawsuits, by the way. That

stuff nobody attacks me for. Okay. Oh,

making making my privacy better. Oh,

protecting me from cars that explode.

Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer. You

want to kill everybody. Okay. That's

where that but that's where it's really

weird.

>> But well,

here's here's where I think I can make

I'm hoping I can make it make sense

without causing cognitive dissonance.

So, going back to how we make products

safer in America or anywhere, okay, it's

not the government. Governments don't

make products safer. Look at extremely

authoritarian regimes where there was

very little free market like the former

USSR. You think products were safe? No.

What makes products safe? It's the

economic self-interest of the company.

It's the economic interest of the

company to make the product safer. Why?

You probably own stock, right? And where

do you want your stock to go? Up or

down? How do you want it to go? You want

it to go up or you want to go down?

Where do you want it to go?

>> Up.

>> You want it to go up. Okay. So do all

the investors,

>> right? So does everybody who owns that

stock. So does Wall Street. So does the

CEO. So does the board. So does

everybody. The people have the stock.

Everybody involved. All the employees

that have stock options, including

usually the major ones, everybody wants

it to go up. If you lose money, it

doesn't go up. So normally

the interest to asssure a product is

safer is aligned with the profit motive

because if your product causes injury

and harm then you're going to lose

money. So you want to know typically you

have an economic self-interest as a

corporation to know not because you're

altruistic, not because you're moral,

not because you're ethical, just because

you have that economic self-interest to

asssure the product is safe before you

go to market and after you go to market.

Okay? And that exists for every product

in America with effectively one

exception, vaccines.

That's really it.

Now

I'm going to show you one result of that

in practice. Okay. Uh

uh

when you think of drugs and and this

will help I think tie into what you were

saying about what happened with COVID um

most drugs are licensed based on

multi-year placebo control trials.

Most of them. Why? Because the FDA

requires it? Because the FDA is so

great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA.

It's because the company wants to know

whether the drug is safe or not before

it goes to market. Because you know what

happens with the drug that they put out

that's going to make 40 billion in

revenue or 20 billion but causes a h

100red billion in harm? They end upside

down. So they want to know to a

reasonable degree how safe the drug is

before it goes to market.

In an attempt not to cherrypick, as I

did in my book, I found an article that

listed the top four selling profitable

drugs by Fizer as of like 2020 21 or

something, 2019. Okay? And if you look

at those four most profitable drugs, as

I put in my book, each one has two to

seven years of followup in the clinical

trial that was relied upon to license

that drug against a placebo control

group. Just to make sure everybody I'm

sure everybody knows what that means,

but that just means a group that gets

something inert. So this way you you

give a group the experimental drug, you

give a group the placebo, something

inert. You track them for multiple years

and then you compare

all the outcomes, cardiovascular

outcomes, neurological outcomes, immun

go down the list and cancer rates and

you see the difference. You get a real

actual sense of the safety between those

two

for that product.

In contrast,

for most childhood vaccines,

instead of years, it's often days or

weeks of safety review in the clinical

trial relied upon to license them.

Not a single, and I know that

folks contest this all the time, but

it's in the FDA literature.

Not a single routine injected childhood

vaccine was licensed based on a placebo

control trial, say for the COVID

vaccine, by the way, for children. It's

the only one. Not a single one. Okay.

Um, nor

was the vaccine sometimes used as the

control

itself

licensed based on a placebo control

trial, nor anywhere down that chain.

Chapter 10 of my book, I go through

every vaccine. I go through I have it

all cited to the FDA lensure documents.

You can listen to the talking heads or

you can rely on the primary sources from

the FDA which is why I call my book

vaccines amen because there is what they

tell you and then there's what the

actual evidence shows right so um that

gives you an example the outcome of not

having an economic self-interest with

drugs they have it so they want to know

the safety

>> can I um challenge you on that what

about vio

>> like the vio people knew that there

there was one of the things that was

revealed during the trial is that they

knew that there was going to be issues,

but they the I think the quote was, "We

we still think we'll do well." And that

was one of the damning aspects of the

email uh disclosure because you got a

chance to see how these guys talk about

this drug that they're about to release.

I think they wound up paying a

percentage

of the amount of money they made from

the drug, but they made way more from

the drug

>> than they did the fine. No, I I

appreciate that challenge and it's why I

said when I I was saying that they do

the analysis of whether they're going to

have a hundred billion in loss or 40

billion in revenue. I'm not saying they

won't put out a drug that causes harm.

>> You're saying cause too much harm.

>> Exactly.

>> Okay.

>> They can't they don't want to end up

upside down. And remember, the whole

reason a drug is licensed is because

harm. The crazy thing about the Vio one

is I think it killed somewhere north of

50,000 people

and they still made profit off of it

which is kind of bananas. They pulled it

and and made billions in profit.

This is the the darker aspect of this.

If you were talking about companies that

never did anything wrong, it had the

highest moral and ethical standards and

they were the ones because it's not

about money. It's about saving people's

health and it's about public safety and

we got to make sure we do this right. We

got to make sure we squash all the

disinformation. But that's not what

you're talking about. You're talking

about these companies that have been

fined billions billions of dollars in

criminal fines for fraud for all kinds

of These are the people and the

the idea that they wouldn't lie about

vaccines. Like this is the one thing

that they're going to tell you the

truth. Ruthless capitalist attached to

money and drugs. This is the one thing

they're going to 100% tell you the truth

about. That seems kind of kooky. That's

a that's a that's a hard cell for

anybody who's not ideologically

captured. That's a hard cell.

>> Yeah. But I don't I don't think you need

to go down the road that there's some

kind of evil nefariousness there. It's

not it's a broken economic and

regulatory system from my perspective.

It's just a completely broken econom to

your point about Vio, right?

>> So in Vio it caused incredible amount of

harm but they still

decided that the benefits raised the

risk. Do do you know the story about the

the the cars that used to explode? It's

the classic case we learned in law

school and the the gas tank and and the

you know these cars. Was it a Pinto?

>> It was the Pintos. That's right.

>> Yeah. and and a number of them explode

every year burning the people inside

them alive to death. Right. Horrible way

to go. And and uh there was a lawsuit

and in that lawsuit what they discovered

was the company had done an internal

calculation in which it it it did the

math. What's it going to cost to

actually fix all the gas tanks? what's

that dollar number versus what's it

going to cost to just pay out for those

deaths every year for those people that

we burn knowingly are going to die and

burn to death in those cars. And the

calculation was that it was going to

cost less to pay out for the deaths. And

that is what the internal document

showed. And that, by the way, is in part

the case, the quintessential case you

learn in law school for why they have

punitive damages. because the punitive

damages were there to force the company

to conform its conduct in exactly that

scenario where the economics weren't

going to do it right even in something

that horrible when the market forces

weren't sufficient the economic

self-interest wasn't there you had to

make it happen how through punitive

damages I know there's a lot of you know

news about punitive damages oh it's

excessive and so forth but that's what

they're there for they're there for that

scenario. We're we're just holding them

accountable. Now, go back to vaccines.

Think about how incredibly harmful and

how much harm these vaccines must do

that they cannot survive on the market

without this immunity from 1986. Think

about that.

>> If you were going to steal me on the

argument against that,

>> yes. Wouldn't you say, look, these are

we can't have frivolous lawsuits against

these people that are providing us the

most important medication that's

available to humans. The the whole

reason why we survive smallox and polio

and all these different things. It's

these vaccines. Without them, we'd all

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>> Uh let's just assume that the last part

of what you said is true, which we know

it's not. But w with that said,

>> steel man.

>> Let's steel manning it. Easy response.

Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Drugs.

drugs that are for very small

populations, meaning not a lot of

market, not a lot of sales, that cause

incredible side effects can survive on

the market profitably. Think about that

for a second. Why? Okay, here's why.

It's a little bit of legal stuff, but

it's not that hard. It's not that bad.

Okay, the primary claim you would

typically bring against a product is the

claim that it could have been made

safer. It's called a design defect

claim. It's a claim where I say, "Hey,

had you put in a two cent stopper on

that gas tank, it wouldn't have

exploded. If you could have put in a one

penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd

have my finger." Okay. Design defect

claim. The claim you could have made a

product safer. It is the primary claim

you would bring for a product. Okay?

Injury claim.

So, how do you protect against it? You

make the product as technologically safe

as possible, right? So, if you have a

drug that causes incredible side effects

that we just talked about, make the drug

as safe as possible, make sure the there

are no contaminants, make sure that you

use the best possible ingredients, make

sure the combination, right, the the the

safest adgivant, go down the road.

That's that's number one. Number two,

the second most uh the second way you

you hold them accountable is you bring a

claim called a failure to warrant claim.

I failed to warn you about the harm that

the drug could have caused. Okay? And so

what do you have to do there to protect

yourself? The company has to disclose

all the potential harms. If it has it

right there in the package insert and

you get it and it says, "Hey, it can

cause this, this, this, this, this." You

were told, you chose to still take the

product. They made it as safe as

technologically feasible. They disclose

the risks and that is how companies

typically limit their liability with

medical products with drug products.

Okay? Why can't they do that with

vaccines? Why can't they just make them

as safe as technologically feasible?

Can't sue for design defect and disclose

all the actual risks in the package

insert. Okay. The logical conclusion is

and I and one other point to that and I

and then I'll I'll respond to your steel

man. Okay. And it's this.

>> All right.

>> It's been 40 years for some of these

vaccines. have B vaccine, for example,

licensed in ' 86 and 89, the two

standalones. It's been 40 years. You're

telling me they still don't know it's

safe enough to lift that immunity.

You're giving it to millions of kids a

year. You're making billions of dollars

on the sales of this product, and you

still don't know it's safe enough to

lift that immunity, please.

>> Um, okay. If I was a silly person,

>> okay,

>> I would probably say these vaccines are

more important than any medication

that's ever existed because they are the

reason why we are here. because that's

how we survived smallox and polio and

the measles and everything else.

>> And without them we would have perished.

Uh we would have never achieved the

technological states that we're at

because we wouldn't have been healthy.

We would have gone through mass plagues.

>> Okay, I'll respond to that.

>> So, so because of that, it's just

important that they stay they stay in

business.

>> Well, a few things.

>> And we trust the science. You should

trust the science.

>> Trust the science. Yes. Believe

>> Aaron. Trust the science. Yes, sir.

>> Uh

uh. Amen. Amen.

Yeah. I try not to do too much believing

and I try to do a little bit of, you

know, evidence-based thinking. But any

event, look, when it comes to these

products, uh I save my beliefs for

religion, the unanswerables. Uh where do

we go when we die, right? And so forth.

I have to take a leap of faith and I do

it when I need to. But you don't need to

with these products. Okay. on on on the

first part of what you said f first of

all there are products probably that are

far more important to humanity at the

moment no question about it than

vaccines even assuming it had the

results that you just claimed which I'll

address in a second imagine you you said

you look cars are essential I mean cars

you can't get an ambulance you can't get

to the hospital without cars you can't

get to work you can't get your kids to

school I mean it's essential to a

functioning society so let's give cars

immediate liability intuitively you'd

say that's ridiculous

>> right

>> on the death's point that is one of the

myths that is one of the mythologies

around vaccines that has developed over

time. This notion that everybody in

America die without vaccines. Um in

chapter seven of my book and I lay it

out for every single disease and what I

do there is I say okay how many deaths

were there in America the year before

the vaccine was first introduced or

widely or or widely used or so forth.

Okay, in any real degree. And what you

find is if you go down the list, there

were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe

a thousand or so deaths from each

disease for which we vaccinate. The

further back in time you go, the larger

the number in that dozens to a thousand

or so deaths. Okay? For example,

measles, the dreaded measles that they

say everybody will die from. No measles

vaccine, we're all going to die, right?

That is the impression they give you.

You have any idea how many people died

of measles in the years before there was

measles vaccine in the United States?

How many?

>> About 400 a year?

>> That's it.

>> That's it. 400 a year died in the United

States at a time when everybody had

measles, which comes out to about 1

in450,000

Americans dying of measles. That's in

the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's

like, "Come on, that's not true." CDC

mortality documents on the CDC website

cited in my book. 400. And don't about

50,000 people every year die from the

flu? Well, that statistic is uh um

includes

bacterial

uh deaths that they say are potentially

the result from having influenza. But

>> so your immune system gets weakened and

then something else hits you

>> and that kills you. Is that the idea

behind it? It

>> Well, that's just the way they gather

the data is the way I'll put it. But uh

um with influenza,

well, let me let me if I can finish up

with the measles because I think this is

important on the measles one and I can

deal with influenza as well.

>> But on the measles one, just to really

because you're saying, well, everybody

would die without these.

>> I don't think people think of influenza,

by the way. They think of measles,

>> right?

>> They think of uh those diseases, right?

I don't ever hear anybody say to me,

well, everybody will die of influenza

without influenza vaccines. Everybody,

it's available. everybody can get it. Uh

the mortality hasn't changed much. In

fact, if you look at the mortality of

influenza before influenza vaccines were

widespread, we're not doing that great.

Okay. Anyway, putting that aside for a

moment.

>> Not only that, isn't there data that

shows that if you get it, you're more

likely to get other colds. Yeah, I have

a whole um um giant footnote in my book

about this and I I actually tweeted this

out and did a substit about this. A

whole series of articles,

studies that show that those that have

had the influenza vaccines

maybe these studies often reflect have

around the same rate of influenza. Maybe

they have less respiratory influenza

infections, but they many studies show

they have multiple times the rate of

other respiratory infections. So, good

job. Maybe you've reduced your risk of

influenza by this much, but you've

increased your risk of another different

respiratory disease by that much.

>> How much is it that how much of the

increase?

>> Depends on the study. Some studies show

four times risk, some studies show three

times risk. Yeah. I mean, literally

three, four, I mean, huge percentages.

So, and they're statistically

significant in these studies and so you

know when you're looking at a now these

are all retrospective epidemiological

studies and but when you do a

retrospective epi study which means you

take existing data and then you study it

versus saying okay we're going to do a

study and follow people going forward

okay um if you find like a 1.3 time

which means 30% increased risk like that

that's a public finding this is three

400% increased risk yes in many of these

studies. It's inconvenient data, so

obviously it's not talked about,

>> right? Um so 400 people is not a whole

lot. I'm I'm sure I mean it's sad when

400 people die. But um it's also one of

those diseases that um when you're a

child, it's much more survivable, right,

than adult it's rough, isn't it?

>> Yeah. So measles uh the ideal age to get

it is not when you're an infant which in

the prevaccine era infants typically did

not get measles because they got

maternal immunity from the mother and

and you don't want to get it as an adult

because it is more likely to cause

problems which again in the prevaccine

era wasn't a problem because everybody

virtually got it as a child and

>> Right.

>> Yeah. And when you got it as a child,

um, my recollection of it was the

episode of the Brady Bunch. Do you

remember?

>> Yeah.

>> Remember that episode?

>> Yeah. Laughing about it.

>> Let's watch this. Find that clip and

let's watch it because it's so

indicative of what measles was actually

like in the culture of the people that

would get it all the time versus this

boogeyman of today.

>> I mean, it is it's so stark. It's so I

mean it's like imagine the kid coming

home. Hey mom, I've got AIDS. I got to

stay home from school. It's not that,

right? It's

>> it's the way that most folks who've had

chickenpox. Think of chickenpox,

>> right? Um but we're told that it's

killing people and we're told that it's

killing people now. We're told that it's

killing It's always kids. We're told

it's killing kids now.

>> And um look, if anybody dies from

measles, I'm very sad. But I want to

know, is it with measles? remember the

with COVID or from COVID like what kind

of condition were these people in before

this hit hit them

>> because some I mean that was the thing

about CO it's like yeah it's fatal if

you have four plus coorbidities

that's it's more you're more likely to

be fatal and that was most of the people

that wind up dying from it right that's

almost certainly the case and I can I

can add another data point to that to

help support that which is that between

1900 and this is again CDC data

Between 1900 and the late 1950s, early

1960s, the mortality from measles

declined in the United States by over

98%.

>> You know what didn't cause that?

>> Vaccines.

>> Yeah. Because it didn't exist. I know.

So,

>> but but so immunity had become a a herd

thing just like co-ish right now.

>> Well, everybody basically has had CO or

at least has been exposed to it by now.

Yeah.

>> Here it is. Watch.

>> Yeah. It's a whole episode. There's

multiple clips. I don't know which one

is, but here's one.

>> Just Just let's just try. I think it's

He finds out he's coming over. Put on

your headphones for a second so we could

hear this,

>> Aaron.

>> Oh, Grab your headphones.

>> Thank you.

>> No. Are you sure it's the measles?

>> Well, he certainly got all the symptoms.

A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and

a great big smile.

>> A great big smile.

>> No school for a few days.

>> You've got measles. Golly, mothers are

supposed to know everything, but do you

have to keep proving it?

>> Well, you got a temperature, too.

>> What do you mean, too?

>> Well, Peter was sent home from school a

little while ago.

>> Oh, what was his temperature?

>> 101.1.

>> Oh, is that all? I'm 101.2.

>> Oh, Greg, you want my railroad?

>> I'll be a sport. You can ride on it

free.

>> Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter.

Finally,

>> they're having a measles party.

>> Missed it. Yep.

Boy, this is the life, isn't it?

>> Yeah. If you have to get sick, sure

can't beat the measles.

>> That's right. No medicine inside or out.

Like shots. I mean,

>> don't even mention shots. Yeah.

>> Okay. I mean, am I crazy or or or have

we gone through the one of the wildest

gaslightings of anything ever? There's

there's people out there that because of

the things that you said so far about

the measles will be 100% freaking out on

Twitter.

Right. But this is this is a window into

how the American public thought I know

it's a television show. I know it's a

sitcom, but you can't joke around about

stuff that other people wouldn't think

is funny.

>> Yeah.

>> Every people would think that was funny.

These kids saying, "If you're going to

get sick, you should get the measles."

And everybody at home be like, "Oh, I

wish I had a day off."

>> Well, that's how they thought of it.

>> Yeah. And to put hard data on it, going

back to that statistic, over 98%

reduction. Remember, it's not like

COVID, Joe, because CO there was no

immunity in the population. Right.

>> Right.

>> Measles has been around for forever, as

far as we know, thousands of years. The

year 1900 wasn't the beginning of her

immunity.

1900, measles already endemic. Everybody

was getting measles. So every year

there's a few million people cohort that

were getting it and you had this decline

and so you have to ask yourself what was

the decline. Um it was probably better

sanitation, better acute medical care. I

mean um all kinds of things. And you

know who could take credit for most of

that stuff? Better sanitation, uh a

better living conditions, better uh you

name it? Probably public health

authorities. meaning the improvement in

acute care, the introduction of

antibiotics, better living conditions,

not having sewage in the street, you

name it,

>> right?

>> Probably had a massive contributor to

that reduction, but they never point to

that.

>> And there's one other really

inconvenient data point with measles,

and this is really where it gets

upsetting for folks out there who you

were just saying are going to watch the

show, and it's this

that over 98% reduction in mortality.

There's no reason that that curve was

not going to continue because pockets of

the United States in the late 50 early

60s were like a developing country. In a

developing country, kids are going to

die of any infectious disease because of

extremely poor living conditions. And as

those improved, most likely that 400

deaths also would have continued to

decline. 4.2 million births in the

United States in the late 50s, early

60s, about 3.8 million births today. So

in fact, there's less children being

born in America today than there was

then. So you have a you have a smaller

cohort of babies young children to

infect. And final data point and it's

this and this is really uh I know this

is this is going to cause cognissance

for some but

studies that have looked at those that

have had measles

versus those that don't find that those

that have had measles have a

statistically significant greater

reduction in deaths from cardiovascular

disease and various cancers. So, I'll

give you an example. There's a 20 year

22-year prospective study in Japan done

by funded by the government of Japan and

major universities that tracked a

100,000 people in Japan for 22 years.

And it found that those that had measles

and mumps had a 20% statistically

significant decline in deaths from

cardiovascular disease. Think about that

for a second. Just think about that.

About 800,000 Americans die of

cardiovascular disease. If eliminating

measles and MS has increased

cardiovascular deaths in the United

States by even 1% on a life years lost

basis,

you are still way upside down on your

public health benefit by eliminating

measles.

>> Can I ask you what the speculation is

how that could be? Why why would measles

and mumps infection at an early age

improve your your health

cardiovascularly? Why would it also

those that have not had measles have a

66% increased rate of Hodkin non-hodkins

lymphoma and 266% increased rate of

Hodkins lymphoma which kills 20,000

people a year? Why would women that have

had measles have 50% less ovarian cancer

which kills a lot of women every year?

Um what is it about it? Maybe and here's

the thing. Um I'm you know and you can

have evolutionary biologists talk about

this as well. You've had some on. Think

about it this way. Pathogens have come

and gone throughout the ages. Right.

>> Right.

>> This one didn't. Measles, mums,

reubella, chickenpox. They didn't. It

could be. Maybe. I'm not saying it is.

I'm just saying this is what the data

appears to reflect. What I just told you

about with cardiovascular disease and

cancer. They're all in PubMed. They're

all PubMed studies. They're all in the

published literature and they're all

consistent having the findings that I

just described. Okay? I I'm just a

lawyer. I'm just repeating to the data

reflex. Um, it could be that having

those furbal childhood infections

conferred a survival advantage overall

and it could be the reason they never

actually went away over time became less

obviously pathogenic.

>> So it has like a hermetic effect and it

makes you physically stronger somehow or

another. It makes your immune system

stronger, your cardiovascular like a a

stress test

that I mean it's not outside the realm

of possibility, right? I mean, if wh

lifting weights makes you stronger and

you know, studying makes you smarter,

wouldn't it make sense that some form of

infection that you recover from will

make you more resilient?

>> It does make sense. Um, it just like no

one wants to say to, hey, you should go

get measles.

>> Look, theoretic world,

>> yeah, theory of relativity is not

intuitive. Why is it as you approach a

more massive object or approach the

speed of light, does time relatively

slow down? I don't know if it makes

sense or not. It's just what when you

put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on

the ground, one in the plane, you fly it

around the earth. They're not ticking

the same. So there it is, right?

>> I it

>> you can't pretend that's

>> that is what it is. It doesn't have to

make sense to be true. That's a good

point.

>> That's just what it is. And I'm just

saying what the studies show. Um very

inconvenient. A lot of cognissance

there. But it could very well be that

our whole this whole program, not only

do we So going back to your whole going

all the way back to your point, you're

like, well, they'll say me vaccines are

so important. We got to give them this

immunity. No. In fact, quite the

opposite. Our babies are so precious,

are so important. We want to make sure

we have the safest possible product you

couldn't have. And the way to do that is

to make sure the companies have an

economic interest to make sure they're

as safe as possible. I I agree with you

entirely, but if if I was questioning

anything, I would say, okay, if we don't

have genetic immunity anymore because

our parents didn't have it, because our

parents are vaccinated against measles,

um wouldn't it be better to keep

vaccinating people rather than let a

whole bunch of people with no immunity

to measles get it, particularly like

older people?

>> So, this is a really important point

actually. I I I I agree with you in the

here's here. Well, I can stop before we

get going. When in when they mandated

vaccines or when they started giving

them to people was what in like the

early 60s I believe

>> for measles vaccines

>> 63. Did a lot of people resist it? Was

it back then were the hippies opting

out? Were there is there like a group

that you could follow and track that

never got it never got the vaccine while

everybody else did?

>> Um has to be right. I'm sure there's a

group out there you can identify. I mean

the Amish.

>> There you go. Right. So, you know, who

we we represent right now, cuz New

York's trying to

>> basically kick them out of New York for

not vaccinating.

>> That's crazy.

>> We just won we just um in the US Supreme

Court uh we were just successful in

vacating the lower court decisions just

a few weeks ago.

>> Do you remember when Kathy Hochel was

talking about the vaccines like they're

a gift from God?

>> She believes it.

>> Did you? But do you remember how she was

saying it? It's like in any other

business, if you were running a

pharmaceutical drug business, if you

running if you were running a Chevy and

you're making a new Corvette and you

started talking about how this Corvette

is a gift from God, everybody go, "Oh,

Kathy's cracked." Yeah.

>> Like, what are you talking about? It's a

bunch of engineers. We put together a

great car. Like, what are you? It's a

gift from God. What?

>> People don't say I believe in tables or

I believe in chairs. I believe in TVs

and I believe in wallpaper. But they

say, "I believe in vaccines all the time

because it carries a tourism."

>> But do they work? Like does the measles

vaccine prevent people from getting

measles or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it

a completely

>> So answering that and your prior

question at the same time?

>> Sorry.

>> No, no, no. Don't be

>> I'm very scattered. No

is is that is that uh um is that the

measles vaccine measles MMR vaccine and

chickenpox vaccine can prevent

transmission that is not true of most

vaccines but those can't so

>> those can

>> those can and so to your now going back

so that's the differential and in fact

for most of the other vaccines like

ptasus vaccine so forth they make you

more likely to spread the pathogen if

you're vaccinated And I can tell you all

about that. But before I do that, let me

just point out that to your last comment

because measles MMR vaccine and

chickenpox vaccine can prevent

transmission. You are correct. If

measles were to come through society

right now, right now in the current

time, it would be problematic because

babies who aren't supposed to get it

would be more likely to get it because

the mothers aren't conferring the same

maternal immunity that they did in the

prevaccine era because the vaccine

doesn't confer the same level of

immunity anywhere near. and older folks

um because the vaccine is nowhere as

efficacious as having had the infection

depending on the study 2 to 10% do not

server convert even after two doses

meaning they are not getting immunity at

all pretty much or immunity that's

considered immune

>> is this when they take it later in life

or when they take it when they're young

>> uh this is when they take it when

they're young um and and that's why when

there's a measles outbreak a lot of

times you'll hear a call to even have

folks who are older get the measles

vaccine again, right? There's there's

guidance on that

>> because it doesn't confer if you've had

measles, you're done. You never need a

vaccine again. You'll never get measles

again. One and done, right?

>> Um but um so yes, it would be

>> it would be problematic

right now for those for for MMR measles

rebella and chickenpox to just kind of

let it rip. Uh you would have to really

uh you know have an an educational

campaign beforehand if you were going to

do that. But for the other vaccines, HEP

B vaccine, Ptasus vaccine, not a

problem. Those vaccines don't stop

transmission. And I go into that.

>> Kind of crazy that they give that to

babies. It's kind of crazy. Kind of

crazy. If the parent aren't intervenous

drug users or or whatever, whatever

would give them he B that you're you're

going to inject a baby with a vaccine

that prevents them from getting a

sexually transmitted disease. and like a

rarely sex. You got to be doing

something rough.

>> You know, Joe, you just don't understand

what goes on in the niku.

>> I mean,

>> yeah,

>> that see it just seems crazy.

>> It it is. And here I'll give you

another data point, which is in Denmark,

okay, there is no HEP universal he for

kids. The only time they give HEP in

Denmark is if the mother is Hep B

positive. So their happy B vaccination

rate amongst children is like 0.1% or

something to that effect. Okay. So here

you go. Two first world countries

America and Denmark. Universal HEP here

virtually zero HEP vaccine given there.

The rate of HEP amongst children not

statistically significant. You know what

is different between those two

countries? The rate of harm from HEP

vaccine. That's different. You know what

a baby's never died of on the first day

of life?

Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has

died of in the first day of life?

Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact,

adjudicated as such not long ago for a

for a newborn that died from a hep

vaccine. And um I said earlier, you

can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot.

There is a little program though in the

federal government where you can bring a

claim if you're injured from a vaccine.

That's what I'm talking about right now.

I went about to have baby that died of

he B,

>> right?

>> It's called the vaccine injury

compensation program. I have like 20

folks in my firm that do that work. And

um you know, it's not like a regular

court. You don't get an article three

judge. Article three of the

constitution, a federal judge. You don't

get um any discovery as of right, which

is how you prove harms. There's a

$250,000 statutory cap on pain and

suffering and on death, which is

ridiculous. Um and it doesn't have, you

know, anyways, long story short, it's

paid out about $5 billion for death for

damages and so forth from vaccines over

the years. But um um so so I didn't want

people to get confused like when I said,

"Well, how how did this baby get

adjudicated? got adjudicated in this

program.

>> Got it. Got it.

>> Um, so

when you have conversations with people

and they are the way you used to be and

the way I used to be where you just sort

of just assumed that these the people

that are experts in their fields are

doing a great job and that's why we're

alive. And you start telling them these

things like are you a a real problem at

a cocktail party? Like, do you have you

ever have you ever have you ever had a

conversation that just went completely

sideways and they started getting angry

at you for quoting things?

>> Yeah, I cuz that's a it's not a problem

for me cuz I have no emotions or

feelings about the products. They're

just products. They're no different for

me, but a lot of folks um they uh

there's two things. First, for some like

medical professionals, a lot of them

seem to derive a lot of their self

schema almost the the their value, their

worth from these products. They saved

humanity. How could you question that?

We are the saviors, right? In some

respects, almost like supplanting God,

right? What's the only thing that will

save us during co was it God? No.

Vaccines. That's the only thing. And

then for others,

>> they think that they know, okay, but

they don't know intellectually. They've

never looked at the primary sources. So

when you challenge them with evidence,

what can they draw from? The intellect?

No, they draw from their emotions. They

draw from their feelings. And that's why

they get angry. I get that. I do get

that all I get that all the time. But I

also often get folks who are just

curious and interested to listen.

>> Well, I think there's more of those now

than there's ever been before.

>> Abs. Absolutely. I think co in that

respect uh forced the conversation. you

had um millions of people who were

listening to basic stuff that 10 years

ago when I started doing this work,

nobody talked about what is a placebo,

what's a clinical trial, what's the

stuff like this became

>> or even the idea that a vaccine can

cause a harm

>> was even just that notion

>> was totally taboo seven years ago. No

more.

>> Yeah. Um, I think you're entirely

correct and also credit to to YouTube

because YouTube doesn't suppress this

stuff anymore, which is why I found

dozens of interviews with you on

YouTube. I mean, before I had I mean,

I'd seen some of your stuff on social

media, but then, you know, I've watched

a bunch of your stuff now on on YouTube,

whereas during the pandemic, everything

you said, you would have got removed.

>> I was removed.

>> Everything I said was removed. I'll tell

you the first thing they ever posted

that got said it was on it was on

Twitter.

>> Yeah. The old Twitter.

>> So we brought this lawsuit against the

FDA to get all the documents they relied

upon to license Fiser's CO 19 vaccine.

Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> They they licensed it in 42 days and we

said all right 42 days give us all the

documents. Right. And they wanted

forever. They wanted to produce at a

rate of few hundred pages a month which

would have taken hundreds of years

effectively.

Got a trunch of those documents. took

some of them, literally took one of the

documents and posted it and my tweet was

just literally quoting from the document

effectively and that was taken down as

misinformation. Fiser's own document

submitted to the FDA. One of the first

things that that was just that was mind

jarring. It was stunning. It was

stunning to watch people not be outraged

too when information was getting out

about different people that were

silenced. Jay Bodacharia and all all

these different people that were getting

attacked. Martin Coldf it was stunning

how no one was going, "Hey, what is

going on here? This seems really weird

that you're removing posts from guys

from MIT and Stanford and and banning

their accounts." Like that's

crazy. And until Elon purchased Twitter,

we really didn't know the extent of it.

We didn't really we really weren't aware

that it was government involvement that

they were stepping in to remove and

remove malin information. That was my

favorite. They came up with you know

that one

>> disinformation malinformation is the

best because it's true information that

might cause problems which is

almost everything. As soon as you have a

problem with malin information like you

are encouraging the creepiest kind of

group think that's available and no one

freaked out. Well, a few people freaked

out but not enough. It wasn't it should

have been bipartisan. Should have been a

bipartisan freakout. It should have been

left and right, but it got politicized

in this really stupid way where people

on the left were pro- vaccine and pro-

pharmaceutical drug company and pro

narrative and people on the right were

like, I'm going to take my chances and

those were the cooks. And you know, it

was this like ideological battle as much

as it was a public health crisis.

>> Censorship was bad. It was very bad.

>> Real bad.

>> But I'll tell you what made me think

people were going to go into the street

with pitchforks was when the government

told everybody stay at home. That wasn't

hidden. That wasn't behind the scenes

the stuff you're talking about. They

said stay in your h. They didn't say,

"We recommend you stay in your houses."

>> They didn't say, "We recommend you get

this vaccine. We don't recommend you

wear this mask." They said, "Stay in

your house." When the the when they had

that first order came down, I was like,

"People are just going to be outraged.

People are going to protest." And when

they didn't, that's what dismayed me

personally. And I'll tell you why, okay?

Because when you think about civil and

individual rights,

first amendment, the right to free

speech, the assembly, right, that was

passed and adopted by the states in

1791.

What's the first amendment intended to

do? Restrict government from infringing

on those rights. You think life was easy

in 1791? What do you think life was like

in 1791? You think it was easy? I think

it was all hunky dory. Life in 1791 was

brutal.

brutal. You want to talk about disease,

pestilence,

famine, war, you want to talk about a

life that is no electricity, no running

water, no sew it, nothing. And that

amendment was passed for times that are

more brutal than that.

And here comes

a virus

and every right you have is basically

taken away. And Americans were like,

"Take it. Take it away."

That is what outraged me because look,

what was the whole point of this

country? What what what is America born

out of? In my view, it's born out of the

uh the idea that every other government

that preceded it got it wrong in the

following sense. Your life should not be

dictated by a king or a dictator or a

polar bureau or a central authority.

It's the idea that you are born with

inalienable rights. You should be able

to choose your destiny, including what

risks you want to take. Individual

rights come with risks. Letting Joe

Rogan say what he wants on this podcast

comes with risks. Letting you practice

what religion you want, assemble with

who you want, especially in Austin, very

interesting time yesterday. That comes

with risks. Let me tell you, a lot of

risks, okay?

>> But the greater risk is always seating

that right to the government because

once you do, you don't get it back

often. And so, yes, there was that

hidden stuff you talk about, and that's

not that was bad. Don't get me wrong,

that was bad stuff. That's really really

bad. But but the stuff they did in the

open to me in some ways was was even

worse. And I hope that there's a lesson

that folks learn from that because let

me tell you something. Even if you love

every vaccine out there, you're

listening to this, you love every

vaccine,

you love every mask, right? Great. I I

support every American's right. You're

17, you're 18, you're totally healthy,

no coorbidities, and you want to get a

vaccine a day, wear 70 masks, and live

in your basement and self-imposed stay

at home order. This is America. I'm I

support your right to do. I'll fight for

your right to do that. and you're 90 and

you're a war veteran and you want to go

to the you have 16 core morbidities and

you want to go to the coffee shop with

no vaccine and no mask, you should be

free to do that because that's America

too. That's freedom also.

>> Just like you can bull ride. And if you

don't stand up for that right now,

the day comes when there's something a

medical product you don't want, the

government says you have to get because

trust me, it is so much cheaper to lobby

to get a medical product required than

it is to market to get people to get it.

Oh, they've learned that lesson. That's

why there's so much lobbying to get

mandates, get rid of exemptions across

the country that you don't want and you

can't get a job and you can't go to

school and you can't live your house.

Then what good are the rest of your

rights? They're useless. That's why

medical liberty truly is a fundamental

right. I'm off my high horse.

>> No, it's a great high horse. That was an

awesome rant. You're absolutely 100% on

the money and it's that's it's such an

important thing to to get out there to

to get people to understand that you

it's such a natural human inclination to

when you're in a per a place of power of

control any form of government you want

more control and it's just natural and

what you were talking about when you

lose rights you very rarely get them

back that was so on display in

California with the CO regulations cuz

they had everybody locked down way past

where they had to. A friend of mine's

brother worked in one of the COVID some

government office when they were

considering the closing of outdoor

dining and he brought up but it's

there's no transmission related to

outdoor dining and the the woman who was

in charge said yes but it's all about

the optics. So, she was willing to with

a wave of her magic wand shut down

outdoor dining for a bunch of small

family businesses that were probably

barely staying alive after CO barely. We

lost somewhere around 70% of Los Angeles

restaurants went under during COVID.

That's bananas. And so, they

finally get outdoor dining. Like, okay,

we could we could kind of pay the bills

this month. And then they shut down

outdoor dining for optics. So this this

this kind of desire to just put a foot

down, control people, keep a boot on

their neck. It's normal. Even if it

doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that

from high school. Everybody knows that

from I mean the Stanford prison

experiments. People like to control

people. They enjoy it. And when they get

a place like becoming the mayor or

becoming the governor and being able to

tell people, "Well, you got to listen to

me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside.

Be scared.

California Garcetti literally

had a campaign that said snitches get

rewards.

Snitches. Snitching on people. Having

more than one person over your house,

standing too close in the backyard. You

get money. You get money for ratting out

your neighbor.

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>> Well, when the government gets it wrong,

they always always double down because

and that's the problem with the mandates

once they've required it, they have

taken a position and then to admit

they're wrong. Often what government

ends up saying is, "Oh, well, we're the

CDC."

If we admit we're wrong about this,

that's going to hurt our ability to

influence the public. And that's more

important than admitting we're wrong on

this or correcting course because our

legitimacy, our ability to influence the

public is so important. We have to, you

know, we can't admit we're wrong. That's

what Bobb's doing right now with some of

these things is, you know, is some of

the stuff like the new autism page on on

the CDC website, for example, is uh is

contrary to anything I've ever seen come

out of the federal health authorities to

date. But yes, it's it's disturbing and

it's why

government should no public health

authority should ever be able to tell

you and infringe on your rights. They

should be able to recommend recommend

the law. Recommend like crazy but never

do it because that is the normal course

of how tyranny

dictators bullies thugs operate.

First they tell you what to do. You

don't listen. Apply a little pressure.

You don't listen and they mandate. You

still don't listen, they censor you.

Still take away more of your rights.

That is the normal progression

throughout history. And we saw it happen

in front of our eyes, which is why it's

it should be a line in the sand. Federal

health authorities, state health

authorities should be able to recommend

and encourage never mandate ever. Fouchy

literally expressed it that way. I'm

sure you've heard that recording of him

said once people

>> realize they can't go to work, they'll

drop their ideological and

they'll get vaccinated.

>> Yeah.

>> Like he's he's essentially telling them

you're going to make people's life hell

and they will do what you want them to

do. Not they will have free will, they

will have the ability to choose. No, no,

no. You will make them do what you want.

>> Yeah. Who wants a government that

persuades you on the merits? forget

that.

>> But imagine that that's that is

something that someone said out loud.

>> But but but but

that I don't think that what Fouchi was

saying is anything Fouchi everything in

my view that you saw during co is not

like some giant leap um into some new

territory. To me it's just another

natural step in progression from where

we've gone over the last 40 years with

vaccines. Uh Fouchi saying that is no

different than school mandates right now

>> to get children. Mo most states have 45

states have basically checked the box

exemption to send your kids to school.

There's about five that don't. They're

trying to eliminate exemptions, right?

Um clearly they're able to persuade most

parents on the merits, but yet they they

can't take it. They can't take that a 2

3 4% just will not take these products.

And and I you know and I'll tell you by

the way most of these folks are they're

the folks who really need the exemptions

because

um you know most people who don't choose

to take childhood vaccines they don't

typically just wake up and decide to do

that for fun. Not many people wake up

one day and go you know what I'm going

to do today?

I'm going to take a socially ostracizing

position that might get my kids kicked

out of school, me thrown out of my job.

My friends call me an anti- this and

anti- that. Um you know you name it. all

the horribles that come with not

vaccinating. No, most people don't

vaccinate

>> don't vaccinate because they've had a

very very personal or or or negative

experience with these products. They or

one of their kids or one of their family

members or they've learned stuff they

cannot learn about them. Okay? They have

usually a very good reason not to. And

yet um as you saw during co

it's not about in many respects

the medicine to the examples you gave.

It's about they cannot stand that

somebody is not agreeing with their

beliefs. They cannot extend the

exceptions. Those who stand up say no

I've come to a different medical

conclusion. They they can't let that

exist.

>> Right. That that is what it is. It it it

and it happens for people regardless of

their religious status. It's a weird

thing. It's like it is like a religion.

I mean, which is why I'm so glad you

wrote your book that way because I think

there's these natural patterns of group

think and of

just just complying that people

automatically fall into. It's very easy.

That's why people can get people to join

cults. That's why people are a part of

like weird Christian sex. Like, wait,

what do you guys do? Huh? You're like,

who who's the guy? Who's the head guy?

This guy. And he gets to marry

everybody. What? Okay.

>> Well, well, that's what

>> it's normal. It's a normal thing. And if

you scale it outward, it goes to a lot

of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that

people just have these like climate

change is a religion right now. Like

there's certain people that if you

confront them with like the the the

actual the ones that are willing to

question the narrative that are

legitimate client scientists, they'll

tell you like it is so complicated to

figure out what is causing the changes

in the Earth's climate, warmth and cold,

and the fact that it's never been static

ever in human history, never before

humans, never millions of years. It's

done this crazy thing. It involves the

procession of the equinoxes and the

polar vortex and it's a lot of

and then also stuff we burn that too.

But like what percentage is what? But it

doesn't matter. You can't have that

conversation. It's like you questioning

you know what whatever messiah this

person believes in. They'll just lock

down and climate change is this. No, not

one climate change prediction of doom

has been accurate. Not one. Not even in

the ballpark. You remember the

Al Gore movie? Yeah. We're supposed to

be dead.

>> Yeah.

>> Meanwhile, they're all buying

oceanfront houses in in Maui,

>> you know? Get out of here. Shut the

up. This is another thing. This is

another thing. Like, yeah, we shouldn't

pollute. Yeah, we shouldn't release

particulates in the atmosphere. Yeah, we

should have clean energy. Yeah, but also

you guys are crooks. You guys are a

bunch of crooks that are making money

off of this idea that you're forcing

down everybody's throat that everybody's

got a green new deal and everybody's got

to do renewable this and renewable. And

then who's got money invested in all

this stuff? A bunch of people who are

pushing it and it's a scam. Just

like so many of these things are

scams. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be

aware of the damage that we're doing to

the earth. We should probably stop over

fishing the ocean. We should probably

stop dumping into the rivers of

100%. You know who used to go to court

for that?

>> Bobby

>> RFK Jr. He cranks the guy who is

like cleaning up the East River. That's

Bobby Kennedy Jr.

>> He was the guy.

>> And and an easy way to identify that

somebody's not really coming at you with

science and they're coming at you with

belief, religion.

>> Yes. is exactly what you just said,

which is they're not willing to debate.

They're not willing to discuss it.

They're not willing to engage because

>> that is antithetical to the scientific

method. The whole idea is it's never

settled. The whole idea is you push the

fringes, you push new theories, you push

new ideas. Where would science be if you

said this is it? Of course, that is the

whole notion of it. dispassionately

looking at it over and over and over and

seeing what more you can learn. And the

moment somebody says no, we need to

stop. You can't discuss, you can't

debate that, that's when you know you're

dealing with religion, not science.

>> And when I've talked to certain

scientists in different fields that uh

feel very constricted by the academic

environment, one of the things that they

point to is that the group think

involved in that is just like the group

think involved in everything, left-wing

politics, whatever it is. just figure

out whatever it is. Right-wing politics,

group think in academia is also higher.

It's hierarchical. There's there's tiers

and you got to agree with everybody

that's above you. You want to get

tenure, you want to progress, you want

to get grants, it's got to be you guys

got to be in line on all this And

he's like, and anybody who thinks out of

the box is ruthlessly attacked. And even

when they turn out to be correct, no one

apologizes. No, they they reluctantly

agree that the person was initially

correct, but they'll destroy their

career if they can. He's like, the

pissing matches are horrifying. And

these are the people that are in charge

of telling you what's real in the world.

They're just like everybody else.

They're they're they have ego and

there's a social scramble going

on at all times and people are playing

Succession and Game of Thrones. It's

like it's the reality is not what you're

being told in the news. What you're

being told in the news is a narrative.

And when the news has a giant chunk of

their money for advertising that's paid

by pharmaceutical drug companies and

they never criticize him, be like this

is wild. Like this is wild that this

this is America in 2026 and the only way

you can find out what's kind of real is

on the internet.

>> Uh yes. And uh also um when it comes to

censorship,

if I said some totally crazy stupid

thing about you that was totally untrue,

like ignore it. If I said about

government, they ignore it. When do they

censor?

>> They censor when it's true cuz that's

when they're scared,

>> right? If you start talking about the

government being lizard people, nobody's

going to nobody comes for you. They're

all shape shifters. Nobody cares. But

when you start talking about something

that's true, that's when it hurts.

That's when they that's what they need

to suppress. You think they need to

suppress stuff about um I don't know, a

certain island with that where if it's

not true, no.

>> But if it is true, that's when it gets

scary and that's when you need

suppression,

>> right?

>> And also I'll note I went to Berkeley

for law school.

>> So I I'm I'm familiar with a little bit

of what you were just talking about and

that experience too. It was two. That

was over two decades ago. It was going

strong back then.

>> It was going strong back then, but it I

feel like it was much more reasonable.

Like I used to love San Francisco back

then. It was a It was a great town to

visit. They were smart. They were cool.

They were laidback. People like to

drink, but they were fun. They They

always seemed like a smarter LA that got

out of show business.

>> San Francisco, Berkeley,

were two different things. I completely

agree. And even in I mean if let's throw

outside the bubble of Berkeley from 20

years ago look back over 20 20 years ago

who was fighting for civil individual

rights it was the left

ACLU think about Skoi Illinois right

fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to

march through a Jewish town to say what

they want. Who fought that case? Who

protected their right to say that?

Democrat ACLU liberal lawyers and

liberal judges and they said protecting

their right to say the things they're

saying as despicable as horrible as we

might find it protects all our right to

free speech. Could you imagine those

same folks today bringing that case and

deciding that way? No way.

>> No way. And what's stunning is that if

you asked anybody alive then if you had

ultimate access to information literally

you could pick up your phone and ask it

any question about anything and get

information instantaneously.

Would people be more or less informed?

You would say, well, certainly they'll

be more informed, so they'll be more

understanding of the value of free

speech and they'll know more about that

ruling and what a brave stance they took

to allow the KKK to march and how it

just shows intellectual superiority. The

way to beat a bad idea is not to silence

it is to argue it with a much better

idea.

>> You would think by 2026, well, they

they'll be way better. This would be a

super advanced society of flying cars.

No, no, no. It's um more ideologically

captured, more wrapped up in the

algorithm, which I think is probably at

least 50% fake. 50% is a bunch of bots

tweeting a bunch of that's, you

know, they don't even believe. They're

just trying to rile people up and stir

people up and and push certain

narratives and then people are locked

into it 12 hours a day. So they're

really crazy and no one's considering

things like the important well let's go

back to old cases and let's look at why

they did that and was like no no no

everybody's like captured with whatever

the is on TikTok today what's the

latest stupid thing you're supposed to

be paying attention to and the fact that

now we're at war right okay great

>> it it social media and the scrolling

through those videos which is what

you're describing I think is so

troubling first of all my understanding

is that they just show you stuff that

confirms what you already believe

because that's what you want to see. You

want to see the things that you already

agree with. So you just get this

incredible confirmation bias that

happens which is antithetical to to to

thinking critically to really opening

your mind to it and then you end up you

know uh without cuz without actually

understanding both sides of an argument

without really understanding it. I mean,

look, I understand the stuff about

vaccines that I know which ones stop

transmission,

>> right?

>> And I know which ones don't, right? And

I don't have to live in the world of

believing, for example, they all do.

>> I know how much death there was before

each vaccine. And I know so I don't have

to say didn't ever save any life and I

don't have to say millions would die. I

just the data is the data, right? And

and but you don't if all you're getting

is one viewpoint all the time, you're

not you get this terrible confirmation

bias. And did you see this recent study

that I I did I just read the um the

abstract so I didn't delve into it but

>> apparently watching social media uh

reduces your IQ over time you know just

doing all of that scrolling that's

that's really scary when you think about

our current generation.

>> Yeah. Imagine if it could make you

smarter. How many more people would be

interested in doing it?

>> Right. Like if there was a thing if you

could just stare at your phone for a few

hours a day and you get significantly

smarter. Like it's a 10point jump in IQ.

You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our

house. If you find the Wi-Fi, it's

called read a book.

>> I'm not kidding.

>> That's funny. That's funny. And then you

hear things like, "You shouldn't have

Wi-Fi in your house because all the

signals flying around are bad for you."

Like, how bad? Are you sure? Like, what

is that? Like, how long have we been

doing the Wi-Fi thing? A decade, two