I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it

was just a really dark time I went out

and I knew I had to make it look like an

accident cuz I did not want my kids to

think that I had

committed please welcome Jada pinket

Smith Jada I knew you as a Hollywood

actress I never knew you were the

daughter of two drug addicted parents

and a teenage drug dealer yourself on

the streets of Baltimore I really

thought I was going to be the next big

time female drug dealer I was absolutely

Fearless but getting 2 n mm pointed at

you they pointed two guns at you that's

a big wakeup call but what happened

somebody set me up and then I had to

always have this tough exterior now as

I'm dismantling my defenses I'm in a

really raw place the holy slap what

happened I knew I was going to get

blamed but like it was insane you say

protection is your love language did you

see that as a Act of love the

entanglement conversation we broke up

and then what did you do J my mother my

kids they were like how could you do

this do you regret putting that out

honestly I've got this wonderful picture

that I found oh I know that picture do

you know why this is

relevant yeah I lost him back to

back that's the way it is

I just want to start this episode with a

message of thanks a thank you to

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this podcast by doing so you've enabled

me to live out my dream but also for

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dreamed of or imagined in my life to get

to do this to get to learn from these

people to get to have these

conversations to get to interrogate them

from a very selfish perspective trying

to solve problems I have in my life so I

feel like I owe you a huge thank you for

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[Music]

platform Jada yes I always believe that

in order to understand someone you have

to understand their context and having

read through the entirety of your book

there was this line that stood out to me

which I think

might

be might summarize the most important

part of your earliest context which is

when I go in search of the origins of My

Broken Heart it is the sense of not

being the priority to the two people who

gave me life that creates a fracture in

my feeling of worth yeah why did you

write that

line because it's true you know it's

like our parents are like our first

mirrors and so my parents were really

young when they had me I mean my mom was

17 right 17 18 she was 17 when she was

pregnant I think she was 18 by the time

she had me so youth on top

of

addiction and I just realized you know

as I was going through my life in

different therapeutic settings I was

like oh wow like the first mirror I

had was kind of non-existent in a way

because

drugs were my parents'

priority you know during my upbringing

and

so I didn't really get the reflection

of feeling like a priority to the people

who brought me into the world now thank

goodness my grandmother came into the

picture you know and she really she was

a a beautiful powerful mirror for me

that you know even to my you know it's

still a mirror for me to this day

um where I could see myself I could see

the beauty of myself I could see my

gifts and my talents was through her and

what she was reflecting back to me but

um I think it's important

that I think it's important if it's

possible for children to

feel that sense of

um that sense sense of importance that

sense of priority from their

parents I had an air of sort of

loneliness as I read through the pages

this kind of lonely young girl who was

searching to be recognized and loved and

to someone to sort of hold her hand and

guide her through those early years

and other than in your grandmother's

garden with your

grandmother it it found like that place

of home was never was never really

there yeah yeah I definitely had it with

my grandmother now once she

passed that's when I took to the streets

to like figure

out

finding my home finding my tribe finding

my power finding my identity finding my

purpose finding my

worth

yeah your dad mhm Rob

yeah he um he took for a walk one day

and explained to you why he couldn't be

your

father he

did I was seven and

um he just said he said look I'm a I'm

an addict and a criminal and I can't be

your father and I was like now mind you

he hadn't really been in my life that

much anyway I didn't really know he

wasn't present in my in my life enough

for me to even know what it was like to

have a father but what I did appreciate

in that moment was like wow just thank

you thank you for like being honest now

I didn't realize at that time because I

was so young how that would

affect my relationships with men ongoing

you know as an adult

woman um but yeah in that moment I was

just like thank you somebody is like

being honest with me I'm not crazy

something is absolutely not right here

and he's letting me know what that is is

and he's saying

hey I'm going to keep my distance you

know 10 years old 12 13 years old what

does Jada think she's going to be when

she grows

up at 10 11 12 13 I I definitely was

like I wanted to be an artist definitely

wanted to be an actress you wanted to be

an actress yeah I did I did I wanted to

be an actress I started very young I was

doing theater um I think my first

professional gig was like seven years

old as one of Madame Bon Bon's children

in the

Nutcracker um and then I was in you know

different theatrical programs in the

summertime and what have you and then

the uh when I got the opportunity to

join Twigs which prepared you for

Baltimore School for the Arts I joined

that after school program so Arts has

always been been a big part of my life

do you know why cuz when as I read

through those early years of your life

it seemed that acting was doing

something the the performance the being

on stage

the the validation I think it was giving

you was doing something for you that it

might not have done for someone else who

hadn't walked the steps You' walked up

until that point the validation but also

an

outlet it was a real outlet for me where

I was able to EXP Express certain

feelings that I didn't feel like I had

the permission to express at

home um and um it was a

huge it was a huge outlet for me in that

way I mean to the point

that my theater teachers would often

tell me um you know they try to steer me

into like more why don't you try more

comedic roles you know I was always

going for the very dramatic very high

highly emotional you know uh

roles um and my I just remember my

theater teacher always trying to guide

me into

diversifying the monologues that I would

choose uh for for my pieces to work on

in

class I read um read some books I think

one of them was called the body holds

the score which talks about mhm the role

that acting can play as sort of a

therapy yeah and it's

so it seems to not be a coincidence that

the amount of actors I've sat here and

spoke with who have pretty um

Unthinkable Early Childhood experiences

domestic violence in the home Etc that

then find acting as an outlet for a form

of escapism almost escaping the identity

embodying a different role absolutely

totally agree totally

agree as I read it in your story I was

like not another

one yes another one

it's

classic yeah and I I reflect on some of

the words you wrote in the early part of

the book where you're talking about your

mother and your father there being

domestic violence in the home at an

early age your mother running out of the

house dropping you on the floor because

Rob had punched her I believe your

father had punched her yeah the these

are stories I guess you've heard after

the fact from your mother

yeah but I guess you believe those

moments leave a mark

absolutely I mean my mother talks about

it to this day and we'll choke up she'll

you know cry it's like it's it's you

don't get over things in the sense of

like it's forgotten you know you learn

to cope with it you heal in a certain

manner but it still can leave a certain

imprint upon you um and even hearing

those stories are not easy you know even

as an adult because she didn't really

give me the details until I was

was I mean my kids would dag on their

adults before she shared with me the

level of violence that she dealt with

with my dad did it help you understand

yourself did it help you connect

dots I don't

know if it helped me understand myself

as much as it helped me understand my

mother and then that helped me

understand a lot of how her journey has

imprinted upon me in a certain manner

you know so I guess it does if you take

you know through through my mother and

her journey helped me understand her

journey which has affected me so yeah I

guess you could say that it helped me

understand myself more I say that

because I sat with um you know Gabel

matate gab gab M I do yeah yes yes he

was the he's the person that opened my

eyes to the fact that even the things

that occurred when when we are babies

yeah we interpret them to mean um

certain things about ourselves and he

says babies are incredibly selfish so

for example if the parents are arguing

the baby will interpret that is

reflection of them MH and I think about

the early context that I think I read

about in your story but also that

appears in mine and how I interpreted

that to mean that I wasn't enough in

some way yeah um which is a real through

line throughout your story yeah for

sure I and I think

that probably is probably

more subconscious unconscious than that

which the abuse of drugs

and how that reflected to me that I

wasn't worthy in a certain manner

that why is it that this particular

substance has more power over you know

has more attention more power more

influence than me

to the point that your father will tell

you I'm

relinquishing my parental rights because

I'd rather be a criminal on a drug

addict than try to get my [ __ ] together

for

you is the way I interpreted

that and at the same time was like just

thank you for being honest instead of

sitting up here pretending like you're

doing something different thank

you you know which a lot of people would

do Tony was he your he was your mother's

first part partner after Rob no she he

was her first husband first husband okay

yeah after Rob and he seemed to be a

pretty solid he yeah he was he was

indeed it's this guy comes into your

life and plays the role of a father by

all accounts he seems to do a pretty

good job and seems to love on you in a

way that is sufficient for a child

but then he

too vanishes out of your life makes a

exit makes an acit yeah which I

understand you know as an adult now

looking back and and looking at the

circumstances you know he did the best

that he could he's a man that was trying

to get his life together and my mother

was was deep in her

addiction addiction to heroin at that

time and so

you you can't you can't

negotiate with that it's either you want

to get help you know um or you have to

sometimes you have to make clean breaks

I know that now as an adult and you

don't always know how to play the

middle you know and so I get it what

does that do to you as a young a young

woman who's trying to figure out what

where safety is it's devastating ating

it's devastating I mean I completely

abandoned feeling like I could depend on

anyone which is why I just took to the

streets I was like you know what I'm

going to figure

out how to make money gain power and

create a situation where I can protect

myself and my mother and make sure just

in case she doesn't make it I'mma be

okay you take to the street

when you say take to the streets what

you mean by that when I would see you

know the high rollers the hustlers I was

like oh that's what I want you know I

want

to have the Mercedes I want to have big

wads of cash in my pocket I want to have

friends around me that will protect

me and I want to be able to have

security and stability created by my own

hands I don't want to depend on anybody

not only do I not want to depend on

anybody I can't depend on anyone and so

the

streets that's where I saw

security because we didn't have doctors

and lawyers you know

to look upon you know like that's the

aspiration right because in our

neighborhoods that's what we had we had

hustlers

right and they had the good life so you

could be a hustler or you could be a

Hustler's girlfriend I wasn't trying to

be the girl one trying to be a

girlfriend and

so I'd look

to to that lifestyle

to offer me the security that I didn't

have at

home as an opportunity for me to create

that security that I didn't have at home

security

protection safety these are all words

that appear over and over and over again

in your

book I know right yeah childhood to

adulthood those are the the most

recurring words yep and you you found

that security in part through a

lifestyle of drug dealing yourself MH um

which again I said to you before we

started recording Jada that I knew you

as a Hollywood actress you know that's

what I that's what I know of you of I'm

not someone that's hugely involved in

Media or TV or movie so that's what I

thought I never in my life IM thought of

you as the daughter of two um drug

addicted parents who had chosen their

addiction over you and I never knew that

you started dealing drugs when you were

very very young were you were you not

scared dealing drugs in Baltimore

and you you don't have time to be scared

that environment was a war zone right

and so it's like stuff was popping off

all the time so you just get used to a

certain level of violence you get used

to a certain level of

um just vigilance because that's what

you're

given so you just learn to adapt to that

kind of environment so the levels what

what somebody might consider

dangerous for me was just

normal it wasn't like ooh I'm going into

something crazy here you know it's like

[ __ ] everything's crazy so what right so

I look at it now and I go what in the

world you know but I have I'm living a

different reality in that time when I

was living that

reality that's what life was and

everybody that's what we were all living

was there moments

that were wakeup calls hell yeah and you

were dealing drug listen getting two n

millimeters pointed at you at one time

one to your head that's a that that you

would think that's a big wakeup call Jay

we don't all know what 9 millimeter is

oh you know I guns you know it's two big

guns you know when did that

happen

um I had to

be

17 17 17 years old because that was my

senior year of high

school and what what was the reason that

someone pointed two guns at your

head I was I had uh posted up in this in

the projects in this apartment on the

bottom floor where I would sell drugs

out of the window or through the door of

that particular

apartment and somebody set me up to make

a long story short somebody set me up

and um as I was making the exchange

through the door that had the chain on

it two guys from the side of the door

which I couldn't see because I'm looking

through the peephole two guys from the

side of the door come around and kick

the door

in and pull out guns Point them to me

and take all my money my jewelry and

stash and I was really lucky to make it

out of that alive for sure because the

person who led that robbery ended up

killing two drug dealers um two weeks or

a month after put them in a uh put him

in a trunk shot the trunk up and uh

murdered

two guys and um he ended up doing life

for that

but uh I could tell as he was leaving

you know you it's so interesting when

you're in moments like that I can still

see his eyes as he's leaving me and how

he's making a choice in the moment of

what he's going to do with

me and by the grace of

God he left me there

why well when and of course I you know

my crazy self because of

who because of the protection that I was

under at the time I called that person I

was like I just got robbed he knew

exactly he knew exactly he's like I know

who this is don't worry about anything

um I was like I want my [ __ ]

back and

so we actually um

that person whose Wing I was under he

made for a meeting for us to meet in

that area a couple of days later he was

like you're not going to get your money

back you're not going to get the drugs

back but maybe there might be some

pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll

you know he hasn't sold yet and that's

he was exactly right he had you know a

couple chains or

whatever and I told I asked him I said

you

know why' you just leave me there like

and he said you were too pretty and that

was the first time and I talk about this

in the book that was the first time that

I was like well maybe I am pretty

because I was like maybe I am pretty

because you know he cuz this this was a

stone cold killer and I talk about even

when I met him how he looked like he he

had never

felt any kind of love in his

life and I'm just I don't know what kind

of crazy nut I was at that time I was

just so

all I can say is just out of my mind

like I was just in such an alter reality

I I I really thought I was going to be

the next Queen pen first of

all again a lot of people don't know

what queen pen is Jan yeah well you know

I thought I was going to be the next you

know like big time female drug dealer

you know and I really had I I was I I

was crazy I absolutely was just a nut

because I had no fear whatsoever I was

absolutely Fearless

to be rolling with these wolves like

this and like it was nothing like it was

absolutely nothing I think about that

today I think of my daughter I'm like

what the

like I don't know all I can and that's

when I know and I think back on

everything that I've been through I was

like there is a God for sure there was a

God cuz that

dude for me to even want to see his face

again was like I want my [ __ ]

back and he had it he had it for me he

was like there you go you know and so um

but it prepared me for Hollywood it

prepared me it prepared me big time how

it prepared me in a way because I was

running with Killers that's it's as

simple as that right so the Hollywood

Flex you know dudes who

were presenting themselves as like these

powerful you know if you don't do what I

say like bro

honestly it it it just didn't resonate

that way for me I just looked at it I

looked at all of that as just kind of

like puppy

play it didn't resonate with you but

from the words you describe in your book

about how you received in Hollywood it

appears that H you didn't resonate with

Hollywood either for a while I did not

yeah for a minute this Rough Around the

Edges Rough Around the Edges yeah

because I mean it it was part of what

was refreshing for a lot of people but

it was also the thing that was

standoffish too right what is that um I

think just that that edge that I came

with that

no you know having no [ __ ] to give

basically was just like I'm here to do

me

what you know and I got something to

offer and if you can't see it well then

that's on you you're lost you know just

that kind of attitude and just kind of

like you know I wasn't your Prim

proper uh

demure young lady you know it's just

kind of like as just rough

rugged and rambunctious since

interesting isn't it in life how a

certain type of demeanor or attitude or

mindset can help us to survive and

thrive in one context but sometimes we

need to figure out how to turn that [ __ ]

off yes and that's what I had to learn

to do cuz you weren't in Survival

anymore I wasn't in Survival anymore you

know

and I talk about this in the book you

know how Warren batty bless him he was

probably one of the first people that

was just like

hey you're in Hollywood now okay I get

it but why don't you allow people to see

some other aspects that charm you have

that smile you have like let's take that

let's take that chip off your shoulder a

little bit you know and he was the first

person really to talk to me in a way

that wasn't like making me

wrong right he didn't make me

wrong for being who I was he was just

like there's so much more to you let

people see that

you know and that was the first time I

actually listened because he didn't make

me wrong and I bet you Warren has no

idea that how how much that conversation

and the time that he spent with me

really meant to me was really awesome

because he was he was so respectful and

he really

honored where I

sat and where you you didn't get that

often in Hollywood it was just like no

you got to change this you got to do

this different you you'll never get jobs

like that I was just like well then I

won't work

cuz you know I was very rebellious

sometimes in that

way um but yeah he really that really

stuck with me and from that day on I

just started on the Journey of trying to

figure out how to not lose

myself but also

feel find a way to

feel safe to take that approach because

like I said I was

around wolves all the time so I had to

always be on guard I had to always have

this tough exterior I always had to

carry the attitude like I'm not the one

you don't want to come over here it's

interesting cuz when

you putting up such a barrier to defend

yourself

um Can often make us quite hard

to form connections yes absolutely the

reason I paus there is because I'm

thinking about what you said in the book

after Tony left you who was your

mother's new husband he left abrupt

abruptly after playing the role of of a

father and you said the line about um

the rejection was was brutal something

broke inside me my grief was Oceanic I

put on a li I put it on a library shelf

labeled unlovable and I tried to leave

it there that's another word that comes

up over and over again this word UNL

unlovable and it's funny because when

people are when they feel unlovable

themselves they do often put up these

walls which make them it's almost like

self-fulfilling it's right you know

exactly and that's the essence of what I

felt in J when she arrives in Hollywood

is this person who's got this sort of

little bit of a tough exterior up but

not because not because she's not you

know yeah not because you know it was

really just it was it was so many things

I was trying to protect it was defense

not offense what I'm saying exctly yeah

it was and and I still to this day you

know people like you know I still to

this day have to like manage that

because it's

just it's just in me it's just part of

me it's something because it was such

a um

it was you know it was something that

was built at the foundation you know

it's in my DNA default it's yeah it's my

default so it's like and I I do it well

I can just you won't know anything

that's going on but like you said it's

like well then you don't give yourself

an opportunity to make the connections

that you really want to have and you're

going to be misunderstood stood yeah all

the time which that is like that has

been my life too just

misunderstood another thing I learned

from reading the book which is going to

shock you that I didn't know but this

shows how little I am tuned into media

and Hollywood all that is your

relationship with Tupac oh yeah he comes

over introduces himself yeah first day

of school Baltimore School for the Arts

and um as soon as I walk in he's holding

Court he's holding Court

he's a like he's a charismatic from day

one he's holding Court I'm like who's

who's that peanut head dude over there

you know and I'm coming in I'm rocking

you know I'm Jada I'm walking in I got

the rat tail I got the fly clothes you

know and he turns and we our eyes just

meet and I'm like oh and then you know

I'm I'm going to hold my court you know

I'm

saying and so then he comes over you

know my I'm like oh okay cool yeah

whatever and so he comes over and he's

like hey I'm Tupac and I'm like Tupac

the name from the gate was just like

never heard a name like that before that

was such a

powerful different name and I was like

Tupac and he had this big smile and I

was like it's not a lot of people that

have that kind of like Charisma and

courage to just walk up on me on just

like I'm Tupac I'm you know what I mean

you need to know me you know and from

the right from there Inseparable we

became the best of friends from that

moment on we just connected it was as if

we already knew each other it's

crazy people will find it hard to

believe that at that age in that

environment it wasn't a romantic thing I

know people have had a really hard time

you know understanding that Pac and I

had a hard time understanding

why it just didn't we didn't have it and

I talk about it in the book you know

that being on the back of porch of my

house and we're like having this

discussion I'm like okay Pac just kiss

me and he kisses me and it's the most

disgusting kiss between us both I mean

he pulled back just like and I pulled

back and I was like see dummy you know

and from there it was just like and then

there was one more time he kissed me and

it was just like like and I talk about

that in in jail when I go to see him in

danam Mora that's a whole another thing

and once again it's just

like

dude doesn't work but

throughout our

relationship we definitely had this

beautiful

closeness that was really

intimate but never physically intimate a

lot of emotional

intimacy a lot of um

intellectual

intimacy um we just knew how to reach

each other in ways that was very

difficult we knew how to get around each

other's walls and we didn't get offended

when we would fall into our defaults of

Defense which could be be pretty Fierce

between the two of us he was

quite uh a Powerhouse and so was I we

could be very challenging when we got

riled up so arguments we were very

passionate but because we were one and

the same in that way we kind of

understood that language like a this

joke is is you know what I mean so we

didn't get offended a lot until one

particular time which comes later in the

book yeah when you come from the same

place so you know origin stories you

don't have that misunderstood thing you

talk about because you understand I just

understood him I just understood him and

he understood me he really got me and he

really knew how to pull my coattails in

ways that a lot of people didn't and

same for me with him I just

knew how to reach him in ways that and

and that had everything and I think

because we didn't

have that kind of I think sometimes

physical intimacy can really get in the

way MH you know um and I think that God

just made it that way in which Gody was

like no no no I need you to to be I I I

got a plan so that's not part of plan

did you know did you in your heart of

hearts know that Tupac was going to go

on to do what he

did I knew he was going to go to do

something m

I did not know he would

become the Tupac we know him to be but I

knew he was going to do something great

in hindsight when you look back at who

he was the character traits the

ingredients that were within him why did

he go on to do what he did what was it

about

him he wore his heart on his sleeve and

he could join

you and so what I mean by joining you is

that he's not talking at you he's

talking with you he had a way of being

able

to speak about subject matters

that he's going to sit with you in your

broken heart and speak to you from there

because he knows that broken

heart he's lived that broken heart so

and whether it's your broken heart

whether it's your

rage but he just knew how to penetrate

those emotional spaces in people and

that's what I mean by joining you he

knew how to join you

emotionally in so many different

vertical of

emotion you know he was supremely

intelligent as well he was so authentic

also and so raw that I think that was

really refreshing as well he gave you

him

and he was Unapologetic so he's going to

give you his intelligence he's going to

give you his fear he's going to give you

his pain he's going to give you his

anger you know he's going to give you

his sympathy he's going to give you his

understanding right

but it was coming from

that that heart space that that that

real space within it wasn't a gimmick it

wasn't like oh I'm going to talk about

this because this is what's hot

no you know right wrong or indifferent

he gave you his truth and some truth

people could rock with with them and

some truth you couldn't you know what I

mean and um but regardless it was what

was real for him at that time he was

always

authentic but it's not easy it comes

with a cost right it comes with a

cost because it's almost the opposite of

conformity in a way authenticity yeah

exactly and he was a rebel in that way

and I think people

really I at at points in his

career you know he could speak he would

speak for the community and then at

points of his career he would speak from

that that really intimate place of

woundedness Dear Mama yeah you know that

so many of

us related to nobody was speaking to us

in that way

that could that could go from Ambitions

of a

rider to shed so many

tears to a soldier Story come

on come

on you know to I mean he had so he could

speak to us from so many different

angles that is just the evidence of

authenticity isn't it because people are

multifaceted in their nature no one is

just ambition of AI yeah we were all all

the shades all the shades right but rap

rap music especially back then was very

narrowing it was like this is how to be

a rapper so someone willing to be

authentic it's funny I've seen this over

and over again they they are the most

resonant people in the world because

they represent us in a way that a lot of

others aren't brave enough to represent

us in that's also what vulnerability

does yes that's what you do as well in

this book well thank you because because

you're willing to lay it all out we can

relate to many people will be able to

relate to many parts of you and

you know without books like this we get

narrow views and those narrow views

those are crafted by other people and

they're the least relatable narratives

right yeah and we're also

multi-dimensional you moved to LA you're

working three jobs you start trying to

climb into the ladder of Hollywood um at

this point you you meet a certain Fresh

Prince the Savior Prince the Savior

Prince oh yeah and I was quite shocked

by I think of I think of Will Smith I

think charismatic he's good-looking guy

yeah you didn't seem to think that

way no not at first yeah what did you

think at first I mean he was the fresh

prince I was like okay he's cool you

know but I was like not not not the guy

for

me you know why was he too soft I

wouldn't say he I wouldn't say soft I

would just say that he didn't seem

deep and I talk about this in the book

how at that time a troubled dude seemed

deep to me versus just

troubled it's like stay away from the

troubled right and so he wasn't troubled

it didn't seem to be right and so I was

like that's not deep like he just seems

like you know just didn't draw me in

that

way you didn't feel the same way anymore

though do the the Deep Parts he's

actually yeah exactly yeah yeah don't

judge a book by its cover that that's

that's what Will Smith told taught me it

was like not to judge a book by his

cover and I learned that you know years

later when we had an opportunity to have

you know we had a mutual friend and so

we were able ble to share some time at

Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to

see a totally different side of him

Dwayne Dwayne Martin yeah yeah you went

to that jacket Potato Place yeah the

baked potato mhm what was it about what

did you see in will that night I found

it really interesting because one of the

things that you described seeing in him

was someone who quite was quite adamant

in taking over the world yeah he so

ambitious you know and in such a

beautiful way he had Big Dreams Big

Dreams and

um and he was so

joyful he was really joyful but

grounded and that was the part that I

missed he was grounded it was

like he' been through some things and he

was

really

intelligent so he's what you call you

know he go from the hood to the White

House and everywhere in

between right and I always find people

like that

fascinating that have a wide

range within

them places that they can go you know

you drop Will anywhere and he's going to

figure it out and fit in he had asked

you to be his onc screen girlfriend

hadn't he he okay yeah so I AUD IED for

fresh prins I think it was the second

year to pay one of his girlfriends and

they were like you're too short I was

like all right cool

right and so that was the first time

that I actually met will I came out of

the the

casting and he was you know coming into

the casting office or about to leave or

something and he was like Hey I was like

yeah what's up you know I was like no

need to talk to me they always said I'm

I'm short yeah know so I'm on my way and

then and I think I I think I was

probably about 20 um and he wanted he he

wanted me to play his you know his

girlfriend as a series regular so he

flew in to North Carolina to meet me and

I was like n I'm going to do movies now

and he was like all right cool that's a

that's a bold that's a big

rejection to reject the fresh prince of

ballad when he says you can be his sort

of recurring onscreen girlfriend in a

hit show and you say TV's not for me I'm

going to focus on movies big cool well I

had just done it I had just come off of

a different

world and I knew like I had the

protection of Debbie Allen on a

different world right and so when I

wanted to make moves Debbie was there to

help me that's not to say that I would

have that same assistance on fresh

prints and at that time they locked you

in mhm you couldn't do anything you know

what I mean they have you for six years

they got you

locked and I I just didn't want to be

locked like that and so I really wanted

to try my hand

at doing movies and then Dwayne Martin

when I turned will down Dwayne Martin

got on me because he felt the same way

you did it was just like it's Financial

Security how could you let something

like this go and you know who's to say

when your next starring Mo you know role

is going to come in and blah blah blah

blah blah and I was like but I'm so glad

that I didn't take that role because I

tell you what if I had taken that role

will and I would not have been married

and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow

and been Trey's bonus mom my life would

have been totally

different you sure I'm positive yeah as

in you're sure that you wouldn't have

gotten married I'm

positive because you seen yeah no you

would have seen the red flags listen

no yeah no earthquakes are hard to

predict sometimes you feel tram is ahead

of time often they come on

suddenly and in your early 20s you had

your first maybe not even your first but

what you describe in the book is your

first breakdown personal earthquake when

you're driving down the street one

day mental health and Psychiatry have

come a long way since then um I I I

would guess that at the time many people

wouldn't have been able to tell you what

that

was I had no idea what was going on me

just thinking about that moment just

it's like

um I was so overwhelmed you know and I

was like I I didn't know what was going

on with me and it came over me in an

instant I was fine one

moment I'm turning my car around to meet

a friend on the corner that you know I

saw to say and to say hello to her and

all of a sudden my body shaking all

these emotions come over me and I I'm

like I'm starting to it's like waterfall

of like tears and I I'm like and I have

no idea like my brain is not catching up

to what is happening with my body all I

know is that this waterfall this volcano

of emotions It Was Fear anger

Despair and I was like I I got and she

was looking at me like are you okay and

I was like I don't know I you know and I

get in the car and I'm trying to drive

and I'm like you can't drive pull

over and then I pull

over and then I just

remember feeling terrified to just let

it go and I let it go and then I'm like

I want to

die I want to

die and I

remember making it

home and all I could do was call my

mother and say you got to come here

I'mma kill

myself you know and I think about that

and I'm just like wow and my mother was

like she was maybe a year into her

sobriety

right and what a terrifying call to get

like if I get that call from Willow or

Jaden or Trey I'm just you know it's

like and

um so she's figuring out because she

just started a job at this

hospital I'm so terrified to be by

myself I call my H girl MC light and I

tell her like you got to come out here

I'm afraid to be alone by myself I'm

going to do something to

myself and she flies out and so she

holds me down until my mother

comes it's a crazy

moment have you figured out what what

your body was telling

you I think my body was telling me that

I think my

mind

was telling me

hey we have some things we got to pay

attention to up here enough with let's

keep it moving I'm going to make it so

you're not going to just be able to keep

it moving anymore you have some things

that you got to pay attention to some

things that need to be addressed and at

the

time like you were just talking about

nobody was talking about Mental Health

at all and

specifically mental health was

considered like a white people thing

black people don't have mental health

issues right and so suicide for sure was

a white people thing so I was real

confused I I felt

really I felt like something is is has

gone really really really wrong here

because nobody else like me feels like

this nobody knows what's going on

and maybe I'm losing my mind I'm

actually going

crazy no so it was a scary

time when I read about that it sounded

to me like you had been you've been

playing defense for just a little bit

too long yeah for sure for sure and

that's I guess one of the costs of the

the toughness right they're like as you

say we'll just keep it moving we just

keep it moving nobody a me are they no

it's going to catch you you can deal

with it or it will deal with you those

are your Cho those are your two

choices but you you did keep it moving

even in that moment it seemed it seemed

like you you carried on with the work um

I think you were you were recommended to

go and see a psychiatrist right yeah I

went to see a psychiatrist they put me

on um Prozac and I I started therapy I

started

therapy but it does still appear that

you kept it moving because you you kept

working you didn't seem to want to show

anybody outside of your sort of inner

circle hell no why absolutely

not because that's what we do we keep it

moving right and so I was like I got the

help that I need I got a doctor and I'm

on Prozac

just like right so I'm like okay I'm

doing what I'm supposed to be doing

and I can't let anybody

know and we're GNA keep this moving

because that's what we

do plaster over cracks yeah we just at

that time I'm going to take a break

because you know I'm having I'm

depressed what at that time that that

seem absolutely ridiculous quick one I

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about that okay just for you guys did

you go back to Baltimore I did I went

back to Baltimore um and because I

was going to continue working but not

live in LA

anymore and so I bought a

farmhouse I bought a little farmhouse

on I want to say it was about 6 Acres

maybe six or nine acres if I remember

correctly and it was

um I was going to build a life there for

myself in a little quiet

corner and you know I was like all right

I'll if I need to audition I'll either

go to New York or I can just fly back

and forth from

La I will was trying to hit you up at

this this point in your life yeah he hit

me up he had just Sheree had just sent

him divorce papers and um he decides to

call me and of course me not knowing

anything about marriage thinking that

marriage you know break up of a marriage

is like breaking up with a

boyfriend he's like you know um where

are you and I'm like I'm in Baltimore

you know renovating my

house and he's like are you seeing

anybody and I'm like no he's like good

you seeing me now and I was like

what once again that kind of bold you

know approach I was just like oh clutch

my pearls a little bit so he was like

you know call me when you get back to LA

so when I got back to LA I called him

and we went out on our first

date in and around that time pack had

been sentenced to Rikers right he'd been

sent sent to jail for he been sent to at

that point in time he was at Rikers but

then he was on his way to damura which

is a horrific place where they send

terrorists yeah usually yeah I think the

9/11 some of the people that were

involved with 911 or the well Trade

Center bombings were sent to damura um

while he's in

jail while he's in jail what do you have

here

oh yeah now as I slip from grace and the

world has turned against me a few claim

to have love for me but once again you

show your love after deep reflection and

spiritual awakening I have come to

realize the friend love and soulmate was

there all the time I have not seen or

felt from anywhere anyone the intensity

and loyalty that you have shown me that

is why I want to commit myself to you I

want to marry you he sends you that

letter yeah he it's much longer letter

than that but that's the words that I

put in the book a marriage proposal

that's why he was in Rikers when I went

to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is

actually

that's a

really danur might be where they put

terrorists Rikers is

like I remember going to see him there

and

um he was in such bad shape you know and

um I Rikers I

like yeah Rikers

was bad danur yeah terrorists are there

but far more Humane conditions than I

would say

Rikers it feels it feels like the

emotion is still right on the surface

with you when you think back to these

these moments in your life oh

yeah it feels like I just came back from

seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave

him there was just like

yesterday but I'm also in a very raw

place in my life right now as I'm

thawing out as I'm dismantling my

defenses you know I call it the thaw out

so I'm I'm in a really raw place

obiously Pac was he gets out of jail and

sugaright I mean talking about timing I

think it was like a week ago or two

weeks ago that someone's been convicted

for Tupac's

murder a lot of emotions yeah how did

you feel when you heard about the um

conviction or that someone had that

arrested an arrest had been

made

um I was like I was

glad that an arrest had been made this

this was someone

who we had known had been in the car he

he had had

done some Street interviews about it you

know um and I was just hoping I was like

well I hope they're bringing him in

because we're going to get some

other questions

answered

so you know my hope is that we'll

get more questions answered

in the book you question but then you

confirm that pack Tupac knew how you

felt about him when he passed away

because you and him hadn't been speaking

no and I think there's a really

important lesson in in this for all of

us

yeah yeah we had a we had a

huge

fight huge it was one of the biggest

fights we had ever

had and and

[Music]

um and it was about how he had been

living you

know and uh I

really at that time you know really had

to let him know my position that I just

felt

like you know where he was sitting with

everything was just

just it wasn't going to end up

well

right

and we

had a magnin I mean it

was just beyond the two of us just at

each

other um

and I was just like [ __ ]

that I'm not calling him this time he's

going to have to call me he was way out

of

line so I really dug my heels heels in

the ground in regards to like

nah you I let my pride I let my ego come

in I really took for granted that he

would be living forever like he had

already survived so much like it never

like I never I I looked at Pac as being

Invincible at this

point you know cuz he survived so much

even so much that people don't know

about you know

um but just like I say in the book I'm

like

man don't do

it don't do it don't don't don't hold on

to like that prideful part of yourself

you know with someone you really care

about like no you know he going to have

to call me this time you know I was like

nope was that the last time you spoke to

him that was the last time I spoke to

him that was the last time I spoke to

him I was the last time I spoke to him

and you know what's

crazy it meant absolutely

nothing it meant absolutely nothing and

so that's the test I always have I'm

like okay you're in this beef with

somebody will this beef matter on your

deathbed and then right away I'm like

nope let me give him a call you know

what I'm

saying that's my that's my

test almost a year later he gets shot in

Las Vegas you get a phone call while

you're filming on set that he's from I

believe from his mother um Shakur and

saying that he's in hospital in a coma

and a few days after that you find out

that he's passed away yeah I was on my

way you know fa was like no rush he's

going to be

fine um he had his fiance there with him

and his

family

um she was like so you

know come after your trip in New York so

I was on my way to

him and

my girlfriend Fawn came to the door and

she I I knew as soon as I saw her face

that he was

gone oh I know that

picture yep that was Thanksgiving he

came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with

me and we were at one of my friends

house you look like brother and sister

yeah we look like brother and sister

because that's what we were yeah he came

to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving

with

me we talked about mental health earlier

do you do you know how to grieve someone

the loss of someone like like that in

your life no I'm still I'm still um

working out my relationship with

grief

actually yeah I haven't I haven't really

I yeah I'm

still working that out

because this chapter of your life was

loss mhm unor loss chapter 12 of your

book I've got this other picture that I

found that I thought was um

relevant oh now you do you know why this

is relevant I do Maxine and and Tupac

are both in that picture same

picture

do you have a

tissue

thanks

thank you give nice

hugs

um yeah that's

a

yeah

sorry

yeah I

am I lost Maxine and Pac back to

back so like to you know this picture to

be flanked by

them yeah I lost them back to

back maxing was a good friend of yours

um pack was your brother yeah and she

was like my sister you know she um

I met Maxine on Jason's

Lyric and

uh we became like super tight and she

lived in Canada and

so she wanted to come to Hollywood

and make a career for herself so I told

her that she could come live with me so

she came to to live with me

um she we we feel feel as though she

um had a

misdiagnosis that she had some kind of

thyroid

disorder that really

um disrupted

her psyche mhm and um she ended

up jumping off her mother's balcony

committed she committed

suicide um

so that was really

tough it seems it seems unimaginable

that that chapter and season of your

life could be filled with so much loss

and so much complicated

loss you know because in all these

situations as you write about in the

book there

are reflections where you you say in the

book If I you know you're left with this

feeling if I'd done this I could maybe I

should have done it like this or I wish

I'd treat that situation differently in

hindsight as we know is a wonderful

thing isn't it right you know and I've

sat here with a lot of people that have

lost a lot of people by by Suicide and

they all have the same Reflections yeah

they all have that last phone call with

the person where they had to put up a

boundary and yeah you know I've sat here

even in LA in that chair with I remember

BOS um her her partner at the time

calling and saying listen if you don't

come and do this I'll jump off this

bridge and then he does and yeah

it's like that existential

disappointment of just life

being what it is it's like grieving that

grieving it's like she in

a she went from this like

happy person like having this

condition that just

right and so I just sometimes I just

go this is when I just have to like

reconcile with

God it's like wow God like you really be

doing some stuff like you know what I

mean and it's like and sometimes I get

in grief around what life

is and then I have to make peace with it

feels thinking about your story it

feels confusing that God could seemingly

hand someone so much you know wonderful

career wonderful family all of those

things but at the same time and maybe

maybe there's a relationship maybe

there's a relationship between the two

because had you not had the had you not

come from where you came from maybe you

wouldn't have had all the wonderful

things that you have but also had you

not come from where you came from maybe

you wouldn't have experienced all the

loss that you've experienced MH so maybe

there's a relationship between the two

because I've not experienced that loss

but I don't come from where you come

from so I didn't lose friends growing up

right I didn't lose friends in in the in

my 20s either right

um having all the different experiences

that I've had as painful as some of them

are it gives me the opportunity to join

people in a certain

manner you know and in really powerful

places you know like I have a beautiful

friendship with

um Lauren London and she is the

Widow of nipy

hustle and because of the loss that I

went through with

Pac I could reach out to her

and I could go

hey anytime you need

anything anytime you need to talk I'm

here and Lauren's quite like me defenses

you know what I mean but I just kept

walking closer and closer and I just say

all that to say

that we've been able to meet each other

in a certain place because

of the type of losses we've had

mhm that can really

create beautiful

connection you feel me I feel you yeah

so there are blessings and

pain you just got to you just got

to know that to be true and wait for

that door to

open you know and that's just one one

tiny example example of

like the blessings that I've found in a

lot of the loss that I've had in my life

in general you know there's almost an

irony or a paradox in the fact that your

pain caused a disconnection but then the

pain caused connection

deep

because

heartbreak there's this beautiful scene

in heartbreak which is like it breaks

you

open breaks you open and you got two

places that you can

go you can go into the deep Wells of

Darkness or you can go into the deep

Wells of

light and I've been to

both and I've learned I ain't trying to

be over here no more you know what I

mean so I always use

heartbreak discontent

pain to help me search for bright

light and beautiful blessings within

them in the opener of the book you

described in the prol the life that the

world would have seen in over the next

sort of 10 years of your life before you

before you turn 40 you describe the you

know your super successful Hollywood

actress you've got this husband who is

you know Will Smith and he's a super

successful Hollywood actor you got these

kids you got the family you got the

house you got it all yeah externally

you're killing the game so internally

you must be killing the game right

internally you know I was spiritually

bankrupt right I I find it so I found it

so interesting hearing you describe the

relationship that both you and will had

as it relates to conflict resolution

uhuh I find it so interesting cuz I've

come to learn over the last couple of

years that the way we deal with conflict

predicts the long-term health of our

relationships oh God yeah and I think

there's this professor professor I think

it's called professor John gotman who

studied couples and tried to figure out

why they end up in divorce and he says

the number one reason is because they

build contempt

contempt that's all about conflict

resolution how you're dealing with your

[ __ ] yes absolutely now you remind

me of my partner because she wants

connection she wants to talk she wants

to resolve things she's you know she

wants to deal with the emotions

I would like to not I will buy you

something to make sure that you're safe

right I'll pay for your stuff right but

I just want to work yeah and I and

that's the way you

describe and so I resonated with Will in

that but I I you sharing how you felt

throughout that story helped me to

understand my partner and all the

conversations she's had with me about

what she actually wants from me and me

misunderstanding

her because we have different Love

Languages yeah and your love language

starts when you're a kid right yeah for

sure and wills does too

absolutely what was that conflict of

Your Love Languages Wills you know was

very much like yours it's like M I want

to work I want to work hard so that you

can have everything in the world that

you'd ever want you know I'm you're not

going to need for

anything right am I Lov like was like

but I just want you to be here with me I

don't need all of that stuff I want to

look in your eyes and you know feel your

love and feel your protection here with

me

and you know it was like that connection

I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a

masterpiece out of our connection you

know and he wanted to make a masterpiece

out of you know the the the life

itself right and neither's wrong

wrong neither is wrong and that's what I

had to

learn that that that's where we we've

come to now and understanding neither

one of those wants are

wrong how do you balance

them because it can't be one or the

other how do we balance it like yin and

yang everything about life is

balance so I just want you to know that

you're your

partner you talking to me yeah just I

just want you to know that because in in

as couples we get into these power

struggles no my way is right no my way

is right well if you didn't have this

you know you know it gets into all of

that right and it's like

stop it's not about anybody being right

or

wrong how do you get the balance of it

that's it right and so

yeah it took Will and I three decades

CHR I haven't got that kind of time yeah

three decades okay three decades that's

what we'll get to that will get you it

doesn't have to be that you know it's

like do it

now cuz that's what I've said to my

girlfriend is I've told her that I've

got this opportunity now because things

are going well in my career so I just

want to f for now and then we're going

to have all of our lives together I

actually said that to her one day and

she reminded me of it a week later when

we were arguing yeah I was like we're

going to have all of our lives together

so like we'll connect later yeah we'll

connect later it's like what kind of

foolishness is that you know what I mean

and I'm going to tell you like

this I bet you when you're on your

deathbed you're not going to think

about whatever it is you're trying to

accomplish and achieve

what do you think you're going to think

about most when you're on your

deathbed how you were loved and how you

loved no 100% okay and even as I said it

I thought about Tupac and how you never

know how long you've got left with

someone you don't know why would you

ever want to wait and put that off it's

an excuse though isn't it it is an

excuse to justify my own toxic or holism

well you know I wouldn't call it toxic

I'm I'm I'm always careful with this

word toxic that we're thrown around

right cuz we're all so wounded exactly

and it's not

listen when intimacy makes us have to

look at our

[ __ ] right it's easy to go I piss you

off I got you this diamond ring I got

you this you know beautiful bag I'm

gonna take you on this trip it's like

right but like real emotional intimacy

see we got to we got to deal with our

stuff a lot of stuff comes up

there but that's where that's where

connection and love and true

happiness true fulfillment is what's

going on in our inner

landscape you talk of this loss of

identity when you married will and this

quote I wrote down it feels like I can't

grasp my own Journey at times I feel

resentful and angry I don't know what to

do about it you and will had these two

sort of different Visions for happiness

in your lives together his being that he

wanted to take over the world as a

global you know movie star all the

things that he is um and within there

you start to lose yourself a little bit

it seems this word

resentful yeah very interesting word

yeah can you give color to that word why

you why you chose to use that word cuz

it's true you know it was

like I

felt as though at that

time all right if if I'm I I want to

help you do all of those things I'm here

to help you with that

right

um and I'm like and in

return I should get a bit of what I want

which is

connection

right and so you just for me just giving

and giving and giving and giving and

giving and forgiving

forgetting well not even forgetting not

realizing

that I

was abandoning

myself in the hopes that if I just keep

pouring into this if I just keep pouring

into him if I keep pouring into his

dream I'm going to eventually get what I

want right and that's a false idea in so

many ways right the I and so many of us

do

that if Will looked back and was trying

to give me whatever the hell it was I

was asking

for it wouldn't he wouldn't have been

able to accomplish it anyway because if

I'm not connected to myself if I don't

have a good relationship with

me there's nothing he can

do

so I was going to be asked out anyway

you know what I'm saying so it's like

that's part of the

journey there's no right or wrong

everybody's always trying to find the

good guy or bad guy in people's stories

there's no good guys or bad guys we're

all wounded trying to figure this [ __ ]

out you know and so it took me a long

time to realize it is not his

responsibility to make you happy he

can't it's impossible

possible but it took me

forever hardheaded stubborn you know

because that romantic idea and that's

why I talk about checking the

boxes it's like I did everything I was

supposed to

do you get to have your dream how come

I'm not having mine and that's because

will was doing what he wanted to

do he was making himself happy he was

making himself

happy and he says that to you doesn't he

he says you when you separate he says he

wants you to go and he's like go go go

make yourself happy go make yourself

happy and how did you receive

that not

well not well because you know there can

be truth but you know what I'm saying

it's like how

we you know I think it was very true but

I think think at that particular point

of time I was just still really

resentful I'm just like you know oh so I

helped you get your happiness now you

just going to you know throw me to the

curb and you know I got to do it all on

my own now you know but that's the truth

I had to do it on my own you know just

like he did you got to do it on your

own you got to do it on your

own you got to do it on your

own

and a lot of that's what this this is

about and me detoxing

from

needing fulfillment and validation

outside of

myself detoxing from needing it from

will my marriage my

family a career like I had to get to the

Bare Bones of

Jada and walk what I call the exiled

lands

and those exiled lands are going into

the crevices of you know those places

within that were holding me back from

myself all the fears all of the false

information and false ideas of what life

is and what a marriage is supposed to be

and you know who I was supposed to be

what a wife is like all of it

perfectionism perfectionism

and then I just went off to be

completely

imperfect and took joy in that because

being in Hollywood I mean this is a

place that values the appearance of

perfectionism I think every looks

perfect on the surface yeah and I

think it's not a healthy

idea it's just not

healthy and it's not true and nobody can

live up to that you know which is why

I've been dismantling that need to be

perfect for myself and that's been a

painful

ride

but leading up to your 40th birthday

which is also where the book starts

MH I I read the first pages of the

prologue and I couldn't quite believe

what I was reading because the place

you're at in your life this chronic

state of discontent that you describe

I I remember when I got to the chapter

17 in the book which is no socker Mom

here that was the first time I had to

stop reading because it was a lot of lot

for me to take M hearing that that's

what was going on in your head and your

mind that's the way you viewed life you

didn't see any path forward for you um

you're 39 years old um apparently you

know on the surface it seems like you've

got everything that anyone would dream

of having but internally there's this

chronic state of discontent tent

yeah if I was I often say to people if I

was a fly on the wall but if I was a fly

inside the walls

yeah what were you what was going

through your mind 39 years old about to

turn 40 oh I was in a very very dark

place very dark

place just I remember the I read where

you said if I got to 400 p.m. every

day I was like I made

it I made it and even that was like so

hard I mean you know I was talking to my

mother this morning because she just

read the book and she said I can't

believe you didn't talk about how you

woke up every day

crying really yeah and I was like you

know Ma I I just I think it was enough

to tell people that I was looking for a

cliff to drive off of

you know and what she brought up was

like she knew I was unhappy but she

didn't know

why so it wasn't that people around me

didn't know that I was really

unhappy it's just that everybody

believed what I believed which is why it

was so hard for me to talk about which

is like you've got everything what are

you unhappy

about

right and so that's how I was feeling

you've got everything what are you

unhappy

about and that was just I had so much

shame around that because I didn't

understand and even then there wasn't a

lot of conversation around mental

health and so I was just like [ __ ] it I

can't keep doing

this I went

out and it was just a really really dark

time when you say you were looking for a

cliff to drive off of you're not saying

that theoretically or as a metaphor no

I'm saying I was looking to the point

where I was like big sir I knew exactly

the route to

drive and it's this really narrow route

and sometimes it gets really foggy there

at night and you I'm not I'm not making

it out of that out of that

drop I I remember driving

that one time going to Big Sir because I

was looking like here like on mahand I

was like these drops aren't going to

like I need a drop that I'm not making

it

back I don't want to be disfigured I

don't want I want out and I knew I had

to make it look like an accident because

I did not want my kids to think that I

had committed

suicide

no I was I

was yeah I was in a lot of pain I was in

a really really dark place and when

you're in that place you just can't see

your way

out and you really think I really

thought something was really wrong with

me

because what I was feeling wasn't

matching the ex exterior of my

life so I really did feel like I I was

just born

broken and I was just wired in a way

that

just what was the

truth if that's how you felt what was in

hindsight now what do you know to be the

truth of that emotion and that state of

your life 39 40 years

old what was actually going

on that

I really feel like that sometimes when

we get into these states

of wanting to

die you know for those of us who have

had like suicidal thoughts and what have

you sometimes it is chemical that's a

different thing I think mine was more

psychological something is asking to die

but not

you and it's a it's it's a different way

of

looking at

things right and so and it's it is a it

is a