I'm an introvert not amazing

academically didn't feel like it

belonged anywhere average at best and

yet you created Spotify yeah Daniel P

Spotify founder in CUO he's not only

saved the music industry he's created a

$50 billion company and he himself is

worth more than4 billion I flun high

school and started on my first company

and that later got acquired you retired

at 23 yeah first month was fun

nightclubs sports car 20 or 30 girls

throwing around money 6 months in

realized that this thing I thought I

wanted I just didn't want at all and I

was just empty just thinking am I ever

going to get out of this depression and

what to do in life what if you can work

on something you actually care about

what would you pick music but the

industry is going down the drain I

honestly did not think we would succeed

but if we succeed I knew it was going to

be a big thing Spotify is here a

One-Stop shop for music you use Spotify

I love it I read the journey to that

success had multiple near-death

experiences it was awful ran out of

money I lost all of the hair gained £30

and the problem was I modeled myself on

the Mark Zuckerberg of the world to run

every meeting and be the best product

person and it just wasn't me share the

burden with someone it is so important

we tend to believe the world is more

logical than what it is but it's based

on relationships be the easiest person

to deal with and you'd be surprised how

many problems it solves one of those

problems was

Apple what's your opinion on Apple

[Music]

Daniel what is the most important

context that I need to know about you to

understand the man that's sit in front

of me today and when I ask about context

I want to go right back to where you

come from and that earliest environment

that I almost I almost see it like an

oven I see our early as context as like

an oven that baked us into who we are

today what is that context I'm a product

of a very very strong single mom um a

woman that probably had a ship on her

shoulder um um against her sibling her

brother older brother who kind of said

you can't do this you can't raise uh a

child to be productive um and I think uh

she kind of uh just well hellbent on

making a Point uh of showing that you

know um I was going to be successful in

her definition and successful meant uh

well educated well read uh and be able

to handle almost U anything thrown at me

and just to give you an example of that

while I was brought up in the suburb of

Stockholm very much a workingclass rough

neighborhood one of the big things that

my mother did was she had me um doing a

pentathlon and the pentathlon was like

the classic pentathlon so that means

fencing horseback riding uh shooting uh

running and swimming um doesn't sound

like what someone basically from the

projects in in Stockholm uh would do uh

but she thought that would be a good

sort of uh wide education for me um and

and pretty much my entire life has been

around that I I was kind of clumsy as a

kid um my my fine motor skills was

pretty good my rough motor skills wasn't

very good so she enrolled me in like an

all female gymnastics group um you know

I'm an introvert so she enrolled me in a

theater group um to have me you know

learn um how um to express myself uh and

and so um an Eclectic childhood um but

one where she heavily influenced me uh

uh brought me along in almost every

context with adults uh with professors

like at a very early age and just had me

sit sit along uh or uh with just the

person from next door uh who was

struggling uh getting to the next

paycheck and and I really saw all of

those contracts in in life from a very

young age did she have any desire for

you to become any specific thing cuz uh

I I'm I'm I'm honestly not sure but I

think she wanted me to be broad um just

in general um so um and and I I think in

many families you kind of have this

maybe educational pressure where you

have to be a doctor you have to be a

lawyer like none of that mattered to my

mom um the only thing that mattered and

she kept repeating us was that you need

to become a good human being um and for

her um if I wanted to study sure um she

thought education mattered and was

important um but um not like in other

families and the only thing in fact um

you know probably influenced Spotify

later on was um I very much come from a

music family my my grandfather was an

opera singer my grandmother was um an

actress in theater but also um jazz

pianist so um like music education was

weirdly enough like the the premier

education that was focused on for me and

then all the other stuff she was

basically only important that I showed

effort um I I had a pretty easy time in

school and so uh she constantly kept

pushing me because she felt that I

wasn't uh I wasn't making enough of an

effort uh no matter what so it wasn't

about the grade I could come home with a

straight A uh she would still be like

well did you really make an effort I

don't think so and um and um and and so

for her it was kind of always that thing

about like just pushing and making the

real effort so she cared more about less

about the outcome and more about how

much of your potential you were

realizing yeah very much

so so on school then you you referenced

that she kind of identified you were an

introvert early on but then I think you

said you had a good you had an easy time

in school typically people that are

introverted that are um an only child at

the time that they go off to

school often they struggle a little bit

Yeah because you know finding friends

and fitting into social groups and I

read somewhere else that you don't love

small talk you tend to gravitate towards

the people that you know yeah what would

school like for someone for a kid like

that well I I think you know um I think

there are many types of introverts let's

begin with that and I can switch it on

when I have to uh and certainly I think

the theater helped me um you know I can

be very project a lot of things if I'd

like to uh and and be a force of nature

but it doesn't come easy that requires

tons of energy whereas others get energy

from like the room and they're like very

excited it's just not me um for me

anything with anyone I'm not comfortable

with is really taking a lot of energy um

um but but I think the easy time in

school was just uh I loved learning I've

always loved learning so um you know put

be putting in an environment where

you're constantly being forced to learn

new things wasn't a very hard thing for

me and um I have a very good um I used

to have a very good memory I don't have

it anymore but I was able to memorize

very easily the concepts and the things

that we talked about in school and so um

I think in that end it was very easy for

me and then again because my mother

tried to make me very broad um the

positive and the negative of that aspect

is I could kind of be in any social

group I could be with the athletes I was

n the best athlete by any stretch of the

imagination but it worked uh I can be in

the musicians group as well with any of

the people who were really good at Arts

um and I you know I probably wasn't the

best at any of that stuff either but it

was pretty decent but I could also be in

the math group I probably wasn't the

best of math but I was pretty decent and

um that to be honest is kind of the

Story of My Life um you can kind of plug

me in anywhere I won't excel at

practically anything but I'll hold my

fort and that's I think both a blessing

and a curse the blessing is in is that

it's very easy for people to for me to

be able to relate to other people enough

where I'm accepted in the group but it's

hard in the sense the downside with that

is that I never really belong anywhere

mhm because I'm not that one-sided

um as an individual you know I'm not an

artist I'm not a

technologist um I'm not a business

person I'm all of that and probably a

few other things as well um and and you

can see that very clearly with my friend

group too you'll have artists on the one

side and you have entrepreneurs on the

other end and it's very hard for them to

speak to each other most times but I

love it I love um seeing very creative

people I love uh you know business

people and scientists mixed together

whereas the scientists gets very you

know have a hard time found uh speaking

to an artists um and quite often they're

talking past each other um for me it's

just I love it um and and that's the

blessing and curse when I speak to

people that know you and work with you

they describe you as

ambitious now ambition and being

ambitious is an interesting word because

it's often loaded with this presumption

that someone has a desire for a certain

outcome yeah like they're trying to

they're ambitious because they want to

be really successful or they want

gazillion pounds um are you ambitious

and what does that actually mean to

you um yeah I'm I'm I'm ambitious um but

I probably am ambitious in the uh the

way my mother taught me to be ambitious

which is the inputs right which is um

you know if I see someone with

Incredible potential that that squanders

that potential um I um I asked myself

why why are you doing this and why not

strive for the great thing and in so

many cases in life I found that the

difference between you know aiming super

high versus um aiming just a little bit

higher than where you are from an effort

perspective it's about the same effort

um so you might just as well aim higher

you know this saying of you shoot for

the stars and you land on the moon um

that is very much kind of my life

philosophy why not trying to do it

bigger why not try to do it um even more

interesting and maybe you have to settle

for something less but isn't it more

interesting and more fun to try to do

the really big hairy audacious thing not

for everyone maybe maybe not uh but I

know that because you work with so many

people that maybe don't lean into

ambition yeah that that's true but I I

also wonder if if that's true uh or

whether they're just worried

about really testings and understanding

where their limits are so many people

are more afraid of failure than they are

of success uh and that stops them from

even beginning to try um right and and I

find that so many times like the amount

of people I'm sure came to you is like

oh it's really good for you but I had

the same idea it's like okay well why

didn't you do anything about it and and

often times it's like well for this and

that and that reason and and they talk

themselves out of it um but at the very

core I believe it comes down to that

they're actually more worried about

failing than they are about the

prospects of

succeeding your kids then what would you

advise them to do if they were say they

wanted to follow in your Footsteps in

particular or start a business at that

juncture where we kind of leave High

School yeah and we can either go into

like work or university would you do you

think the the university system is a

little bit outdated yeah I do um but as

with many things um you know I I don't I

I don't think it's bad I don't think

it's good either I think it depends

there are certain people that do well in

that structure and and need that kind of

rigor of that sort of path to go down

and do incredibly well um against um you

know the essays and the as it and

they're really good and they're really

good with the lectures and then taking

the notes and just have that sort of

discipline in that area of their life

where they do well in that circumstance

and then that education then sets them

up for greater things so I think it

depends I mean if your dream is to

become a lawyer then I think you have to

go through that path right um because

it's impossible otherwise I think if you

want to be an

entrepreneur uh the single best thing

you can do is to um probably study as

many business as you can and get as much

business exposure in that so what do I

mean by that well it can come in by

working for businesses uh that are great

but more importantly probably working

for great individuals um and learning

from them right so if you are fortunate

enough to be able to do um you know

we're talking about this but um your

behind the scenes version um and and and

being able to like work for you and that

and see you up up close it's going to be

invaluable for that individual that get

to do that um because you get to see

entrepreneurship from the first row you

get to see what it's like um what

business aspect What's um you know how

do you do that how much admin do you

need to carry and even if you're just a

fly on the wall you're going to learn so

many skills that are quite diverse and

and that's the I think the biggest trick

about entrepreneurship is like the the

for

me uh everyone when they think about the

word Innovation they think that it's

something entirely novel yet for me

Innovation um I don't know of a single

thing that just someone came up with uh

that had no prior grounds everything is

about putting two or more things in

together in a new context um so studying

many different things understanding a

little bit about business understanding

a little bit about um product and how to

make that product um understanding uh

whatever it is that our drivers uh from

that I think is important um and that's

not to say that University can't do that

and it can't be helpful to learning

sales and the theory of it Etc um but I

think that there is many other paths you

could take uh that may even if you're um

you know if you have enough grits and

kind of like are able to put yourself in

a situation where you can uh get in

front of the right person start working

for them um so much is in life is around

people believing in you and and giving

you the right place to grow um and and

and it's it's really certain dipit is to

be honest um and and and I'm certainly a

product of all that so I I I think it is

not right or wrong it's just I I dislike

how we're talking about it as it is the

way or um you know it's not the way and

it's like no I think it's more like it

works sometimes for certain individuals

and then for other individuals not the

best use of their time and there are

other paths you can take but educating

yourself even if that's outside of a

university and getting a degree concept

that I think is invaluable and it's the

most important thing you can be doing as

a young individual about anything you're

interested in I think that's one of the

big misconceptions people have about me

when they hear I dropped out of

University they think I don't like

education no no no no no yeah I spend

all day like all night till 2: a.m.

learning about rockets and Ai and all

that stuff a self-educated but the

institution of Education that is

University for me I just couldn't stay

awake yeah in that experience same here

but for another person it is exactly

what they they need because they may not

even know what they're interested in and

they feel like I want to have a

foundation that gives me a broad base so

again if a master's of Science degree if

if you know you want to be an engineer

but you're not entirely sure what type

of engineer it's a very broad Foundation

that will teach you Elemental skills

that um you probably will use at some

point in time um not saying you can't go

outside of that realm too but it's great

stuff um and if you're wired that way

you do well in that type of environment

uh great um and there's certain types of

people that do that when young people

come up to me and ask me this question

about what I should be doing with my

life at that early stage the advice I've

started to give and I want to check how

you how you would change or add or alter

this advice is to try and go and join a

startup so just for context I'm talking

about people that want to be

entrepreneurs here yeah to try and go

and join a startup that's doing

something at the very cutting edge of

the world or a wave that's currently

coming into to shore so I'd say to young

kids like go and join an AI startup and

the reason I say startup is because

you're going to be closer to the

decision making you're going to learn

more you're going have more exposure

than like if you went and worked at I

don't know a Google or something sure um

and also it's the cheapest way to fail

when you're young right like you can

observe the company fall into the

graveyard without there being a huge

cost to you yeah uh I I would agree I

mean I I think that is a tremendous

um uh opportunity uh to do that um but

again I've seen the paths work too I've

seen people uh join bigger companies and

move around inside of that company and

um get a super valuable skills um and

then eventually um kind of break out as

an entrepreneur as well and maybe um you

wanted to save up some money and

obviously if you're join a little bit of

a bigger company you're able to do that

and prioritize doing both and then you

know once you have that kind of Nest Egg

of sorts you can then break out and so I

I I don't know I it's like the I used to

think um and you and I we were talking

about this before I used to think that

you know hey I've got all this advice

I'm going to just going to give it and

more and more I on a personal basis I'm

not sure I'm in a great position to give

advice on many things um and and so I I

try to stay away from it I can't help

myself when I feel like people are doing

it but I try to not do it as much as I

do um and it's actually something I'm

deeply conscious about because I don't

think that there's one path in life I

think that there are many paths in life

and um of course there are really bad

ones um but

but some some of the more amazing life

stories aren't the obvious ones uh it is

not the people even doing the sort of

hey I joined a startup or I did this and

that it may be the person who spent um

start life in a lab to only get so

frustrated in the end that they end up

breaking out and then forming a company

because no one else wanted to do the

idea that they had in mind or maybe the

person who uh was the least likely to

solve that problem but had really been

spending all this time thinking about it

um and developed this really odd skill

while doing their normal day job that

then turned out to be really useful to

solving this particular

problem I find it incredibly fascinating

that when we look at the back end of

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so much for your time back to this

episode and going back to that first

company that was acquired at

vertigo after that was acquired um I

read that you retired at

23 yeah I'm guessing that made you

enough money to retire yep and you're 23

which is in 2006 and you're a retired

man living what one can only describe

as any 23 year- old's dream yeah lots of

money guessing there was some champagne

there I think there was a red

Ferrari how was that for you

it was

amazing no all all jokes aside I grew up

and as I said I was kind of like always

socially accepted but didn't feel like

it belonged anywhere and um I um um I

never had an easy time with girls um not

a bad time just not as as good as if I

was widely successful in music or wildly

successful in sports or any of that

stuff and I kind of had odd interest

because I kept as I said kind of moving

from group to group um and so I I had

this idea uh in my head um that I wanted

to you know be financially

independent um I wanted uh I thought

that once I got to that point I would

start living life um and I thought that

um you know uh I would be more socially

accepted and I would find my tribe uh

and it's embarrassing to talk about it

now um but um you know that was really

what I thought so uh I thought that uh

if I was lucky and worked really hard I

might be able to retire in my

40s if I worked really hard but you know

50s for sure and and um so you know

getting to that point when I was 22

actually not 23 it it was just

mindboggling to me and um I had that

Financial Target in mind um and I

thought well once I hit that I'm just

going to like you know do something else

and and so as you said I kind of like

started frequenting all the night clubs

uh bought a sports car um tried to get

the girls I could never get before

realizing that yes I could get them um

but for all the wrong reasons and they

didn't really care about me um and it

was kind of a hollowing thing because it

was this kind of oh was this what I

worked for for such a long period of

time and then

um only to find out that um you know it

was quite depressing honestly I had all

these new friends that weren't really

great friends at all um luckily I was

able to keep my old friends as well um

but I realized that this thing I thought

I wanted uh I just didn't want at all

and um what was the symptom when we say

realize there's typically symptoms

psychological symptoms or um no I I

realized it because I I um you know I

started getting all these phone calls

from people um asking me to come out on

Friday evenings and Saturday evenings uh

and I just I was just empty I just had

no energy to do that um and I thought to

myself oh this is odd because they old

me thought this was what life was all

about and I had had girls call me and

like hey you should really come out we

miss you all that stuff and I realized

that I just didn't care and had um I

thought that that was you know this

magical moment and in fact um you know

putting on my computer or playing my

guitar um was kind of yeah this is more

me and so something on the back of my

head started forming around like who am

I what do I care about and it's it's

actually in that process I met my

co-founder because he was the founder of

trade doubler and who uh bought my uh

company and he too kind of the company

had iped he got kicked out of the

company he he was like a 100 times more

wealthier than I was like he he had like

the biggest success in Tech Sweden at

the time and had everything going for

him but he didn't know what to do with

life and so that was kind of how we

bonded um and um you know we were

watching like old Godfather movies

eating crisps um and talking about what

to do in life uh and and that was like a

real friendship moment a real Turning

Point uh and he saw um the same thing

that I saw and uh um you know that was

when I realized that I've been

approaching this all wrong uh in fact I

always LED working it was never about

money um I always liked learning um and

I would pay to go learn for someone

rather than getting paid for it and but

at the same time I thought work should

be hard that was the thing that I had

programmed into me so work has to be

clearly something you not don't enjoy

doing um so I thought well what if you

change all of these parameters what if

you create an environment where you can

come in and learn from really smart

people all the time what if you can work

on something you actually care about

opposed to something that makes money

what if you could have a lot of fun

while doing it and not take it too

serious and we started talking and um we

were balancing ideas and Martin my

co-founder was like asking me like Well

if you really could pick anything like

what what would you pick and I I'm I

said to him well um you know uh I'd

probably pick music but that's a

terrible idea uh and he said well why is

that a terrible idea and I said well

it's a terrible idea because you know

the industry is going down the drains it

just doesn't work it's piracy it's all

of these reasons and he said okay okay

um but but if one would fix it how would

one do well kind of stupid they're

trying to regulate it clearly you need

to build a better product that's the

only thing that's going to work CU they

said okay well how are you going to do

that and it's like well I don't know but

maybe you could do this or that okay

well how would that work I like well I

don't know but maybe you could do this

and that and how would you make money

well I I think maybe you could pay out

based on how much people were listening

I don't know and then literally after

going through why not uh 100 time times

I started realizing that yeah why not

and why not give this a shot and I told

him from the beginning you know uh that

um hey this is probably going to loes a

lot of money I have a hard time seeing

this ever being a sustainable business

um but I in let's do this and he said

great let's do it um and while I was

hesitating for some reason he wasn't uh

so he was like this seems fun let's do

it and that gave me enough confidence

where I kind of had found a new purpose

again and instantly I stopped responding

to all the people who were trying to get

me out in the evenings and I was like

well I got something to do and then I

went back to work again and it was like

pretty much a week from that moment

where I felt like I'm happy again I

haven't felt this happy for you know the

better part of a year because it was

about a year when I was going through

this transition of of just having fun

being retired um first month was fun 6

months in

depressing uh N9 months in am I ever

going to get out of this depression to

then kind of a year in finding something

else that I truly look forward to that

felt crazy um and I honestly did not

think we would succeed but if we succeed

I knew it was going to be a big

thing something really interesting there

that could relate to a lot was this idea

that you had a hypothesis about your

happiness that had to fail you to know

that it was not a valid hypothesis about

happiness and there's so many people

obviously I mean there's I'd assume it

more than half the population are

currently pursuing a hypothesis they

have about what will make them happy

that probably and this is the thing I

always wonder is does it have to fail

them for them to know that that's not

the right pursuit in my case it did it

had to fail me yeah I had to fill the

anticlimax and then I had to go and buy

the the big house and then was there for

nine months and got out of it as quick

as I could and bought the car and then

got rid of the car and then just moved

as close to the office as I could in a

one-bedroom studio apartment yeah yeah

but for a lot of people I'm like is

there a way for them not for it for them

not have to go all that way and have it

fail them well I think that there's

certain life experiences um uh that you

can't learn from other people you just

have to live live live it and I think

it's not so much about sort of the

monetary thing or the status thing um

although I would probably say status

whether or not you should really seek it

I think is one of those things that we

all have to go through I I think

everyone can talk about it don't seek

attention don't seek Fame don't seek all

of these things but we're we're human

beings we want to be well-liked by other

people um and so I think that is

probably one of them but but in general

I think the further away it is from

anything you know and can relate to I

think um

we have to uh experience parts of it so

you know one one of the most amazing

thing that I get to do these days for my

friends is um from like back when is I

take them on these crazy experiences uh

right you know I'm I'm fortunate enough

that I get to see some of the coolest

people in the world whether it's

musicians but athletes and and so on um

that uh they're able to get a glimpse of

my life uh and I love it because um you

know they're looking at it with this

kind of sh shlik imagination and wonder

about some some things that I'm going

through but I also see the other side

when they're like is it really that much

work wow I would never want to do this

and it's it's quite helpful um because

as we started out saying they have this

idea what the life is so I kind of like

bringing them along on the journey where

they get to see it and then um you can

see that there are aspects of it that

they like and then other aspects that

they would never ever want to get into

um so um you know I I think it might be

possible to kind of simulate that

experience um but I think you have to

experience it very much up close uh

certainly when you're talking about

wealth and if you come from having none

I think almost everyone then would

instantly need to experience a little

bit of it uh to at least kind of

understand whether that's important or

not especially if you get it uh like we

both did probably in our 20s and so on

had I had I worked up until my 40s I may

have kind of realized hey this isn't

life I'm I'm having children I'm having

my wife this is amazing I got this

experience being a single guy trying to

chase girls um and all I'd seen was on

MTV how all of the rappers uh were

throwing around money and uh having 20

or 30 girls at the nightclub and and you

know hey I wanted that too mhm one thing

I'm really interested in is you said you

got to 9 months and you were depressed

N9 months after the sale there are so

many people now and this is why I asked

about what the symptoms of that were

it's hard to know when we're drifting

down the wrong path because it creeps up

on us like a frog in a frying pan I I

remember a time working seven days a

week and this feeling in my chest if I

would describe it as like a a subtle

growing

emptiness and that was for me in

hindsight I was lonely yeah and I didn't

know I was yeah so those symptoms that

you encountered at 9 months in in a way

that someone might relate to them what

were those

feelings um I I I think my entire life

as I mentioned I I've been struggling to

fit in um and I think it's something we

probably share um and have in common and

I somehow thought that this would help

and um when the situation was new um it

did feel like I found my new tribe and

it did feel like they um um you know

this early excitement everyone's calling

you everyone wants you to be part of

something that you before may not have

been able to enjoy and may not get those

phone calls and may not get into the

hottest nightclubs and and the club

promoters like putting you on the list

plus 10 and all that stuff this social

currency so it was thrilling it was

absolutely amazing and and it it truly

was this kind of like wow I've made it

kind of

feeling um but um after you experien the

10th time and I somehow had this idea

that it would translate into this

continuous feeling of that thing or

translate into something more meaningful

I I sort of realized that no wait a

minute it's the same experience again

but it's lost a little bit of a charm

and I started now getting the

hangarounds that we're trying to get in

with me because you know they realized

that maybe I would buy the bottles um I

was seeing people at the table come up

and grab a glass and then run away um

all of that kind of thing and I I I it's

slowly sort of dawn upon me that um you

could replace me by just anyone else

that had um the money and the connection

that I had at that time thereby the

status and it would really would matter

um you know and and um uh you know I I

was I was listening to I think it's his

name is Morgan howold um the author who

talks about psychology of money and he

kind of talked about it the the the

Ferrari syndrome and he basically

describes that uh everyone uh who

aspires to buy a Ferrari um thinks of

themselves and saying oh well one day

when I'm in this Ferrari everyone's

going to look at this Ferrari and

they're going to be amazed with me yeah

what we all do is we look at the Ferrari

and we want to sit there we actually

don't care about the individual that's

currently sitting in there so this kind

of um you know Paradox um so to speak

and and that's very much how I felt

about my life and as you're right right

it uh you push that to a side and you

say well surely this you know this is

fun and you have all these other people

coming out and then you kind of bury it

and then it keeps coming up and then it

comes up again and then it comes up more

and more and more and I didn't realize

what it was at first because I was like

surely I'm just being foolish this is

this is life and everyone was rewarding

me on the outside too saying why the

life you live this is amazing how cool

is not to be retired and just not having

to do anything um but I wasn't learning

and I wasn't forming genine connections

with people um I was just being and uh

yes I got status but I realized I never

did anything for status and I actually

did didn't care in the end uh from being

status I cared about belonging but not

in that group um I wanted to be uh in

another group that cared about um me for

being me and you must have learned a lot

now in hindsight about what the core

components of you being sufficiently

happy are you've used a few of them

there like learning was one of them

belonging what are what are the other

core components of you think for someone

just it's easier to just talk about

ourselves here for you to be

stable um I I I realized

um that I also need to be by by be

allowed to be by myself right um so I

used to in Prior relationships um before

meeting my wife I used to think you know

you're in a relationship you constantly

need to do something with the other

party and it was draining me and uh I

used to think there was something wrong

with me uh because I wanted to be by

myself for most of the time and um and

being comfortable with that I am that

way that I I thrive on loneliness uh not

all the time because I can feel lonely

um but um for quite a lot of time

perhaps more so than more normal people

like being lonely um I'm I'm just

finding myself in that um place where I

just pursue whatever um is top of mind

for me I am sort of in my own thoughts

uh wandering dreaming uh scheming um you

know um that's been very important too

because I used to think there was

something wrong with that yeah uh and

then my wife luckily she's kind of the

same she does her thing and I do my

thing and we love that we can do stuff

with each other but we're also perfectly

happy doing things on our own um and um

and that kind of taught me also quite a

lot about

myself in that because again we are

social animals uh and I am too by the

way I love um hanging out with my

friends but I also love being by myself

so I think having a positive impact um

not just on myself I have to feel good

about what I'm doing and know that it

helps someone um being able to learn uh

being able to have fun while doing it

and uh then be in an environment where I

can be lonely and then can come back

without that being sort of socially

awkward uh like one of my favorite

things that I can do with my close

friends is I can literally uh let's say

I would host a dinner I could host a

dinner uh and I get an idea it's very

uncommon but I'll get an idea and I will

walk away and disappear for an hour and

I'll come back um and uh that's like

something that's kind of socially

acceptable in most situation I do

realize that so I I try to not do that

if I'm I'm with um you know strangers

because they won't understand they W

won't understand but my real friends um

they know that about me and they're like

totally cool so they just hang out and

then when I come back I love that

they're there and I love that they're

hanging out with my kids or hanging out

with my wife and doing other stuff and

just being comfortable in in that that

for me is like a perfect dinner is one

where

I would be social I would get an idea

walk away think about it for a moment

get collect my thoughts get energy write

it down and come back filled with energy

from that and then you know continue the

conversation uh that's a great example

of something I love doing so that's

actually happened where you've been at a

dinner party with friends and then

you've had an idea and you've left you

and then you've my thing there is if I

left so the first thing is I'm not sure

my girlfriend would be very happy

yeah she understands that I'm like that

she understands that I love being alone

she understands that I get ideas at

unpredictable times and that idea might

suck me away she probably would be that

happy um about it probably need to have

a conversation about that um but also if

I went away I would need to start

working on the idea because I'd get so

energized about the thing that I'd then

spend all night like sorry guys I yeah

that happens by the way it happens that

I like finish halfway through the dinner

and just disappear don't come back to I

will say my friends usually uh even my

close friends are like uh hey we came to

hang out with you not like to see you

for half an hour then you're

disappearing uh but it happens um um but

I can obviously equally be there for all

the dinner too um and and yeah I mean it

is one of the social Oddities I think

that I do um with my close friends um

and I again I I know it's highly

socially unacceptable that most

situations but but if you really think

about it as an introvert as I said I

usually thrive on I need social elements

but I get most of my energy being by

myself all right and and so then from an

energy balance uh perspective being with

people it gives me a lot of ideas it's

great but it also empties my energy

reserved and going away filling them up

again coming back it is probably the

ideal way for me if you you asked me

like what would a perfect night look

like it would probably be that how do

you then balance romance and

relationships and my partner her I think

her attachment style and her love

language is like quality time so I often

violate that love language because of

what you've just described yeah we could

be Saturday in a park and then I think

about something or get an email and then

I'm off away on my own little world yeah

yeah I mean that's certainly the risk um

again I'm I'm fortunate enough that my

wife is kind of very similar to me in

that regard so she too leaves uh dinners

and has her ideas and and uh you know do

that so I think we're we're more similar

we try to make sure that one of us stay

because it gets very awkward otherwise

um but but if you're both like that do

you have to have rules though for when

you do B yeah well that's the thing

that's that's actually the harder thing

for us is finding that quality time so I

mean there's two parts you can either

have I I like defaults so you can have

like the default is we spend time

together or the default is we're in a

relationship where we don't spend time

together and so you have to make time

where you're actively finding something

you both are interested in and you want

to spend time on together and I think

we're more that and I think most people

probably with kids would recognize that

because the kids come first in the

relationship anyway so your relationship

to your significant other um is probably

you know um the second priority in that

relationship and and your wants kids are

the first so I don't think that's

uncommon but I think changing that

theault could be really important um and

again if it's something that's really

important to my wife of course I'm going

to be present uh she's really into horse

riding uh I'm not but I know it's

matters to her greatly so not only uh

will I try to speak to her every morning

when she wants to talk about that but I

also show up for her competitions or I

show up for important practices uh that

she has as well um and um there are

aspects of the horsing thing where we

can Bond and and have great quality time

as well um as it is she loves hearing

about my entrepreneurial Endeavors uh as

well and and we find quality time

through that and then we have date

nights like most couples do and uh yeah

I mean if you're at the restaurant you

don't just really walk up and get away

of course you're going to spend that

quality time as

well starting

Spotify when I heard the Spotify story I

I really wanted to meet you

because I consider myself to be

ambitious but there are some challenges

that I would just view as impossible and

at the time when you consider how the

music industry was that it's ran by

these big record labels predominantly

and they own the music to be a young kid

from

Sweden and believe that you could change

that for me is a special type of

delusion like it's like a it's just an

impossible task it's what I just would

have thought okay some things are the

way they are they're removable objects

that is one of them yeah why didn't you

think that was a impossible

task

um well I think for several reasons but

I I think that is the beautiful naivity

of an entrepreneur as well right uh we

move mountains I'm sure Elon was you

know even more insurmountable thing

electric cars and hadn't been a

successful car companies for uh I think

a century or something um or at least uh

you know many many decades in the US and

he managed to do that so I think it's um

it it's part

illusion uh delusion sorry um but but

the other part I think um also is that

what I realized is before even

committing to this idea as the the why

not part I probably spent 500 hours

learning about this problem and the

scarcest resource we have in the world

today by far is time and when you have

high quality people that spend thousands

of hours on a problem you find new

Solutions and so the biggest um thing

for Humanity I believe is simply that um

I believe we're capable of doing

practically anything but uh there aren't

that many people that um can see these

multi-dimensional things with that right

experience that happens to come in at

that right time they're spending

thousands of hours of trying to needle

in a Hast stack see that opportunity

through that very very tiny prism and

and um um even even today when I think

about it some of my other businesses it

kind of work the same way so I started a

healthc care business about five years

ago but I I was spending um I think the

first interview when I mentioned it was

in

2009 um and I started the company 5

years ago uh 2018 so I I probably spent

a decade thinking about this problem um

and I couldn't figure out a solution

2008 yeah yeah you you started the 2008

but you no no no I started the company

the Healthcare company in 2018 18 but I

started thinking about it 2008 oh okay

um so I have a notebook with all my

crazy ideas most of them amount to

nothing uh quite often someone else

comes along and dust them and I'm happy

and it's amazing um but every now and

then um nothing happens for a great

period of time and I kind of feel that

itch to maybe make a difference myself

and I and I say that because like the

realization there was um I had spend up

until that point thousands of hours

understanding the Health Care System why

it is the way it is the incentive

schemes and the what the NHS is doing

and what someone else is doing and the

Public Health Care System Insurance

business directed consumer things the

the longevity curves of human beings the

disease groups the costs curves like all

of those aspects um about it similar to

how you're describing looking at Rockets

um but you know imagine you spending a

thousand hours to Rocket not just kind

of casually researching it I am sure you

will find novel ways of how to attack

the problem it may not be because you

know if you're not an physicist you may

not come up with a next rocket engine um

but you may find another twist uh to on

how to attack this problem and I don't

really think it comes down to that and

so uh in the space of music I don't know

anything about the music industry going

into it um but I would argue a few years

into it I was probably one of the most

foremost experts on copyright in the

world around like the dmca and um what

the US copyright regime look like and

what what um other regimes look like and

how um you know performance rights

societies label rights and what kind of

Rights mechanical rights performing

rights uh all of those different aspects

all the different Co code is are C

numbers ISBN numbers and how they

related and so on and so forth and and

um um you know I I find like people

either get too modeled in on the details

and don't see the bigger picture or they

stay too top level picture to really see

the new ones and the question is how do

you dive deep enough where you see it

and figure out which problem to solve in

what order um and and I was at that

point um by probably 2007 having spent a

year on Spotify but the team was super

small so it it really wasn't a big

commit at that time and I wasn't sure at

that time but then I realized that hey

this is actually possible uh because we'

built the product that showcased the

technology um of what we were doing and

it felt like if you had all the world

music on your hard drive so then the

real problem ended up being can we get

the music industry to accept this and to

that I had no idea but I felt like this

is so obviously if this came out in the

marketplace what consumers would ask for

now the only question is is the music

industry going to allow this and that

took me another year and a half 18

months to learn the answer and it was

completely binary we almost died

probably four times um in that process

and ran out of money and uh record

company saying no no this is never going

to happen until eventually one day Stars

aligned and we were able to launch um

but that was not a given but it felt

like the right bet to make because you

know it was a binary outcome either we'd

fail the price wasn't all too bad if we

would succeed it was clearly so that at

least this would resonate very well with

consumers was there any moments where

you thought that it wasn't going to

happen are you conversations you had

with record labels where someone very

high up says absolutely no way me many

times uh I would say

um probably once every month or two over

a 2-year period I thought that this

probably won't pan out uh and it was

incredibly demoralizing I I usually joke

but like in the beginning of that

process I had hair and then in the end

of it I lost all of the hair I probably

gained 30 lbs in weight uh during that

period of time um it was awful um but

through it all my co-founder Martin uh

probably a factor of just who he is as

an individual but also probably because

he didn't participate in these meetings

uh kept being really upbeat kept being

um you know an amazing support and said

don't worry about it you're going to

figure it out and he just kept believing

in me and then he also said a few times

you know when that was in enough he said

don't worry about it we'll figure out

something else if this doesn't work out

it felt to me like I always had that

safety net and it was just the amount

the push that I needed to do this um and

again talking about not giving advice

but the advice that I do give to other

people is to share the burden with

someone uh it is so important um and I

know I get most of the credit for

Spotify but it is really a team effort

uh from the gustavs and Alex and all

those people but then also in the early

days from uh Martin in believing in me

uh and and knowing uh with this kind of

Supernatural ability that I'm going to

pull it off some

that must have told you a story which I

guess has stayed with you about

perseverance and the power of

perseverance the the double-edged sword

to that

is sometimes it's right to quit as well

yeah and knowing when to persevere and

knowing when you're just wasting your

time which is as you said the most

important currency of all yeah you

know that's where you know art meets

science um there is no scientific answer

because it depends it's an art to know

uh when something is futile and when

something is worth doing but I call it

that sort of binary outcome but uh with

uneven distribution right so if you

think about it as a curve even if it's

50/50 whether you succeed but on the

upside you can win a lot more than you

can lose and all you can really lose is

one time and the upside maybe 100 m it's

probably worth uh persuading obviously

it's that's the science part the art

thing is okay well is it really 100

times is a 10 times and and have I

already lost but I'm just not aware of

it um that's the art and also in that I

hear an optimism bias from two

co-founders the the constant oh we'll

figure it out we'll figure it out we'll

figure it out how important do you think

that is especially you know you hire a

lot of people is that something you're

like looking for and the people that you

work with that bias towards will figure

it out um I think again it depends on

the role you're Hing for you need a team

uh I think it's really important that

you just don't surround yourself with

just yes people or Optimist uh you need

the naysayer in the room as well you

need the people who will balance it out

and be the one who says I'm not sure

this is going to work out um and and so

often I think that's the that's the

important part we keep talking about it

CFO or sales people but again you can

have a deal making CFO and a sales

person that's Happy gol lucky um it may

not be a great uh combo you may want the

the CFO to be skeptical about the sales

Pipeline and a happy gol lucky

salesperson or the inverse maybe like

really diligent that and the CFO that

maybe sort of like don't worry about it

we will sort it out um but I but I think

so much about that is the subtleties we

we don't have a perfect model of the

world um and uh the more experience I

have it's a Cheesy thing to say but the

Lesser realize that actually no um and

so much of this are actually down in the

nuances and most people are um above the

nuances don't really understand the

issues well enough or too bog down into

details to understand the bigger picture

and and going that sort of up and down

that's sort of super detail oriented um

but also being able to go up and see the

big pictures that is um and simplifying

very complex Concepts I think some of

the most amazing entrepreneurs in the

world are experts at um and that is the

superpower and that is certainly one

that I'm trying to hone um uh and work

on uh but when you see it like Steve

Jobs when you take very complex things

and people say he didn't understand

engineering and Technical problems it's

not true yes he may not have been an

engineer he may not have known how to

write code but he certainly could

empathize with what um made an amazing

engineer tick uh empathize with

different Technical Solutions will have

different inputs and outputs um and he

understood it and um he was brilliant in

taking very complex ideas and

understanding how to make that resonate

for the everyday person these Tales I

hear of you sort of being outside record

labels and waiting for the CEO to come

out so that you could catch them or

trying to accost I don't know the the

assistant outside and asking when the

CEO was coming outside so that you could

get a meeting with them yeah are these

Tales true um as with many they're

probably exaggerated a little bit um

where is the truth well the the the

truth is that certainly happened but it

wasn't you know I've heard people

recounted us that I slept outside of the

the record labels kind of in a sleeping

bag that that didn't happen uh that

happened another time in my career but

it wasn't um it it it didn't happen

there but but it certainly happened that

I'd book A Week fly to New York with no

meeting booked uh with basically an open

calendar and about 20 phone calls a day

just trying to figure out a time to get

on this the schedule of U senior VP or a

CEO Etc that certainly happened and that

taught me another thing too which is

that these assistants like you better

befriend them because they are the keys

to the kingdom um and most people don't

care about them at all uh but they're

very influential they're very powerful

um and uh and and you know uh that was

hard in the beginning but then I

realized that um they got to see me as

an individual saw them as an individual

and eventually you know this this is not

we tend to believe the world is more

logical than what it is but a lot of it

is based on relationship So eventually

some of them started taking a liking to

me and so when there was the opportunity

and they could prioritize 10 other

things for that CEO to do but I was

there I was friendly uh in easy to work

with show up at no moments notice even

if you know it was 20 minutes before

finding out about it I would show up um

and so I was I was easy to deal with so

take away all that complexity in order

to achieve the outcome that I wanted to

do and sometimes that is as simple as it

is just be consistent be the easiest

person to deal with and you'd be

surprised how many problems it solves

did you invest your personal Capital

into starting Spotify because I I read

again that you'd spent pretty much all

of your personal wealth to start the

company yeah yeah I did uh so I invested

not all of it but quite substantial

amounts of it uh and my Cod funer

invested even more but he obviously had

a much larger sum of money um from the

beginning um yeah so all in all I think

we invested about $10 million uh into

this um by ourselves uh which was also

crazy because you know back then today

10 million into a startup just was isn't

a big number there many startups that

have done that before but doing that on

a seed stage uh back in 2007

that just was unheard of it was usually

500k seed check sums Etc what if it

hadn't worked out what would have been

the personal implications for you

financially uh the personal implications

that I went from not having to have a

job to then probably having to go back

to having a job um so I basically took

that security uh that I built up uh that

22 I'm set for life and I gave that up

um in a moment's notice um and um yeah I

mean um I I don't know what to say I

think from a purely logical point of

view it was probably terrible decision

um but betting on myself and betting on

yourself would probably be again U I say

I shouldn't give advice but it is

probably the the best advice I could

give many people is is you know because

especially those that want to invest in

various startups Etc and I but they may

not have a lot of money and then I

always say well what what don't you just

bet on your yourself instead why don't

you just try to like work for one of

these startups like you said and and

maybe take a little bit more equity and

a little bit less pay and take out of

your cash instead because that way you

increase the likelihood hopefully if you

know you're good of the company being a

success and it just feels like the more

prudent thing to do and so I had a

sneaky feeling that that was the right

thing to do uh but investing as much

probably wasn't the smartest thing to do

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Spotify goes on to be I mean success is

probably an understatement and I know

the journey to that success had multiple

near-death experiences to get there one

of the key things key moments I reflect

on as a Spotify customer um is when

Apple launched their competing product

Apple music in 2015 I believe it was and

there was lots of Articles saying that

this would be the death of Spotify yeah

I think I was even concerned as a very

loyal Spotify user I thought [ __ ] you

know they have all the phones they have

they're kind of like the mafia they

could just was you yeah most companies

when Apple comes into their territory

shaking their boots yeah what was it

like in your office that day when Apple

music launched a competing product you

know when you live in the thick of the

fire you're not concerned about the

things that everyone else is concerned

about um I I usually say public

perception lacks about 6 to 12 months

what's actually going on and and so in

our case we had known that Apple was

going to launch something for probably

the better part of a year because they

had the Beats acquisition beforehand and

we were hearing all sorts of rumors Etc

about what it was so absolutely you have

to be worried when one of the greatest

companies on Earth decides to compete

with you so we were concerned about it

um uh and we were kind of doubling down

on what our positioning was going to be

so you kind of like double and triple

checked whether or not um you know you

were deluding yourself into believing

things to be true um and and so for

instance in our case one of the big

things uh we we had a some strategic

pillars that we were focusing on one of

them we call ubiquity um because we

always knew this would eventually be the

case we we thought that consumers would

value the ability to work across all

devices and all ecosystem and our bet

would be that um any competitor we might

have had would actually focus on

reinforcing their own ecosystem and not

care about all the other stuff so the

primary reason they were into a music

service would be to make their own

devices better not to make the world's

best music service and um and so you

know that's why we made such an effort

of integrating into cars integrating

into all sorts of uh weird devices smart

fridges whatever you might think um and

so so it was kind of like reiterating

that but I felt pretty good about that

position um and going back and then

there's always the sort of like what if

they figured out something that we just

wouldn't have thought about uh and I

remember we were constantly talking to

the product teams about this uh and like

what what what if they come up with this

and we're literally trying this game

theorizing every possible angle um on it

um um but I think at the end of the day

we we kind of went through the Thousand

scenarios kind of thing we knew we had

prepared as well as we could um we um

anticipated a certain type of product

there was this kind of 1% or 10% chance

whatever you want to quantify it as

where we would just be wrong and they'd

come up with something that widely

superseded any of our expectations um

but that very day remember we'd been

preparing for that day for so long so

the first reaction was kind of them

announcing it which we expected them to

do uh and then seeing the walkthrough of

the product and realizing that okay well

we prepared for this we thought about

this Etc and so weirdly enough as the

rest of the world World kind of like

gasped for air um we were thinking about

it okay well this was what we expected

um and back to that point distribution

was the amazing thing they hadn't come

up with something on the product side

that we just didn't anticipate um but it

was really just about distribution and

there was nothing we could do to guard

ourselves against it um but we felt like

we had a superior experience um on the

personalization side the fact that you

know if you have a Windows machine and

an iPhone um Spotify would work um but

Apple music um wouldn't at that time um

so there were many of those things that

we um I thought had a better positioning

than they had i' I've long thought that

I've tried both I mean I tried it when

it came out and I couldn't stick to it

um and I think me and my friends who

were in my music group we all concluded

that the personalization how Spotify

understands me yeah is really the thing

it's hard to know why you do what you do

as a consumer y but from analyzing it a

bit more deeply um it just felt like I'd

built there was a lot of investment I'd

done to my playlists and all those

things but Spotify just knew me better

seems to have much more data than um

data on me and understands me and is

more of a bespoke solution to me than

Apple was and also the the user

experience is not great and I just can't

get past that I just so I tried it and I

bounced I I I just stuck with Spotify um

Apple are I Ed the word Matthew earlier

on a lot of people don't know this but

they take 30% revenues on pretty much

every new app in the store they've

rejected your audiobook app multiple

times um there's a rumor going around

that they even delay how quickly you can

release new updates of your app and

delay how that reaches phones what's

your opinion on Apple and what they do

and how they conduct themselves well um

it it's um as a consumer uh let's start

off with apple is a fantastic company

and they make amazing products uh I

really do believe that um I've been a

Mac User since I can't even remember

probably late '90s when I could first

afford one uh all the way to now and

obviously use the iPhone and Apple

watches and all that stuff so let's

start with that and I think that's hard

to square then that there's this other

company that's

fiercely um focused on just um itself

and constantly trying to do things by

itself and out working well with others

um and

um those are perhaps two different sites

of the same coin um but um you know the

the way that manifests itself um I think

that it's a company in many cases that

still sees itself as an underdog uh but

don't realize that they become Goliath

and so many of the tactics that made it

the rebel kind of thing are now stifling

Innovation and it's really hurting

consumers to a great extent with the 30%

you talked about with the fact that you

know Spotify can't um or any developer

if you don't pay the 30% you can't even

speak to your consumers it is kind of

absurd um so you know there there's a

ruthlessness um on the business side of

Apple um and and perhaps it's always

been so I don't know I never got the

opportunity to meet Steve Jobs but um uh

um where just from an ethos point of

view it's just not me um and um um I

have a hard time squaring that with me

as the consumer and me as the business

leader um and needless to say I I I do

believe that Apple can and should play

fair and I think it would be way better

for the world if they did um and I think

um that it would actually help them in

many regards to switch their tactics and

realize that they are the Goliath at

this point and not David um and so yeah

one of the things I want to close on um

is your philosophy so I guess it's the

same answer because spotify's philosophy

towards what's made it successful will

probably be in many respects a

reflection of your philosophies towards

business and and um more broadly towards

life but when I sit here and I think a

lot of people will sit here and say um

there's clearly something unique about

you about the way you approach problem

solving problems life business all of

those things that has

been that has defined you and set you

apart are you aware of what that is what

those principles

are um no I don't think so but I think

you're right in that um you know the the

the way I would describe Spotify um to

people you're WR that it is scary

sometimes watching Spotify uh trying to

watch it from a distance and not just be

in it because sometimes it's doing

things where I'm like how did how did

people know that we were supposed to do

it this way um and it would be how I

would approach solving a problem and

it's kind of how um you know we've

internalized certain things but the best

way is it's 17 years old now and it is a

teenager that's liberating itself so

it's not 100% me uh in fact it is this

much broader uh different being uh there

are aspects of it it that um hasn't

taken after me um at all in um product

development you know Gustav is a

formidable product leader as an example

and Alex is a formidable business leader

and the two of them are now leading more

of the day-to-day and they're certainly

instilling their personal uh values and

their personal uh perspective of the of

the company too which I think they're

totally entitled to doing having been

with the company for 12 plus years both

of them um but it is interesting see it

because we're approaching things now in

a way I wouldn't always do it's not

inconsistent with important principles

of mine but but uh it's certainly not

directed and the other part is I started

this as a 23-year-old and the

23-year-old Daniel while many parts are

the same uh The 40-Year-Old Daniel with

um two kids um having seen that have

changed perspectives as well uh I have a

different feeling about work and and the

importance of that in my life still very

important but may not be the sole most

important thing that I do just to

mention one and so it has similarities

uh but there's differences to me as an

individual too but I think if you

compare me the 23y old Daniel the

30-year old Daniel The 40-Year-Old

Daniel um I've evolved too and and

candidly I'm in that period at the

moment where I'm perhaps trying to

figure out who Who The 40-Year-Old

Daniel really is because it's a

different one than the 30-year-old one

um maybe it's

subtleties but um I think in quite a big

way also and just thinking about

something like culture the 23-year-old

Daniel um culture was having a pinpoint

table uh 30-year-old Daniel uh would

have said yeah culture is important but

didn't really understand why and The

40-Year-Old Daniel uh would be um in the

30-year-old Daniel would be more

strategy than culture actually and The

40-Year-Old Daniel is all about culture

almost to the point where strategy is um

secondary if not even tertiary to that

um 40-year-old Daniel is all about

culture yeah uh way more so what is the

culture well that's the amazing thing

because it is the most scalable thing

done right of a company um and it's the

hardest thing right because it is

everything and nothing it is every

positive action that's happening in the

company it's every negative action of

company every person that's joining

every person is leaving is impacting

culture and so um in its Essence I

believe culture is about rewarding the

positive behaviors you want to see in

the company and obviously disuade the

negative what are the positive behaviors

you want to see well one of them is

taking risks um and failing and how do

you do that when you have eight or 9,000

people inside of a company responsibly

how do you

uh when the common status quo is we

don't like failure um you don't get

promoted based on failure you get

promoted based on being successful um

Annie Duke has this thinking in bets she

talks about I love that is thinking

about poker ships on the table and and

she said one time when when we spoke she

said to me is like um a companies like

um everyone has ships at the table we

just don't know how many we have and so

the people that have been successful

have way more so they have leniency and

allowanc in the culture of any

organizations to do more than someone

who just started um and perhaps have a

less lesser ones and if you failed

enough times what's naturally going to

happen is that you won't have the same

agency in a large organization to impact

things too so then the the Counterpoint

to that would be well H how do you then

um create an environment with people um

are allowed to take risks and then

balance that with say a Spotify at this

point where we have a huge amount of

responsibility too we have tens of

millions of creators that have their

livelihood of them platform so we can

just experiment with how we're paying

out and so on and so forth right and 550

million consumers uh we have to be

responsible with their data we can't um

you know put new things in front of them

without testing them and so on and so

forth and so um there there's this

constant tension between uh being

Innovative taking

risks um and um you know at the same

time obviously being responsible and and

that's hard but that's all about culture

I'm absolutely obsessed with the subject

of culture because I really think it's

an under underappreciated factor in um

in why businesses are the way they are I

think you could basically take a person

off the street and the culture you drop

them in determines the behavior you'll

get from them yeah and so um and having

sat here and interviewed like Sir Alex

Ferguson's ex- teammates yeah you just

come to learn that sir Alex Ferguson's

greatness wasn't strategy they all say

to me I remember Patrice and Evra said

to me that he walked in on a we were

playing Arsenal yeah on a Sunday in

London yeah and he walked in and just

said Lads listen beautiful weather

outside don't [ __ ] up my Sunday and

walked out because his thing was

management he just had this culture the

other thing they said to me which has

always stayed with me is Rio Ferdinand

said to me how many times do you think

he came into the training ground

dressing room yeah 26 years I I don't

know he go they said twice really didn't

need to come in there the culture was in

there yeah and it was self- policing

when it's strong right yeah but you're

right sports teams the ones that do

really well um I was being told an

Arsenal story that probably can't share

but uh you could see bits and pieces of

mikel's um you know how he's pushing

that team culture at the moment too

which seems very fascinating uh with

some of the almost Antics uh he seems to

be doing this All or Nothing SE that was

um I think last season um as well um so

you can see that and I love studying

that with sports teams because you know

it's 11 players on the pits how do how

do you make these people Jael together

um and form a team um hugely important

thing so I agree but but also like

imagine if you had 11 new players uh you

know yeah can you even form or Chelsea

these days too right um can you even uh

create a culture that way uh or is it

something that should be done

intentional um I mean if you're growing

a company growing the number of

employees by 50% two years in a row most

of your employees probably won't have

been here even for a year um it will

change things whereas if you make

something where it's more of a gradual

change um it will uh it's easier I'm not

saying it's trivial but to to kind of

have the same culture um and I think

many Founders uh make that mistake when

overh high they don't understand the

implication of the culture they just

look at sort of more Warm Bodies but

it's all these other subtle things that

starts breaking Daniel we've got a

closing tradition on this podcast where

the last guest leaves a question for the

next guest and I love this question

because um you don't like giving advice

so this is a perfect one for you um what

is the advice that someone could have

but didn't give you at 21 years old that

would have made you more successful at

the thing you now

do I

um I think uh we we spoke about it um

I've gone through iterations of uh

trying to learn from other people to

model that uh huge part of that has been

kind of um optimizing for my strengths

and not covering my

weaknesses um and I wish

um that I um realized much earlier on

that perhaps my superpower is that I'm

pretty good allaround her and not

particularly good at anything so I used

to think for instance that I had this

brilliant um you know model myself on

the Mark Zuckerberg of the world of like

I need to run every product meeting I

need to be the best product person in

the world just wasn't me and it took me

a while to realize that and be

comfortable um saying that right um

um but um I I have realized that I do

like a lot of different things I love

learning about new things and perhaps

that is my superpower uh to realize that

the person who's doing PR that's quite

an interesting thing to learn about um

there are interesting things about

employment law how that came to be and

trying to understand that and you the

list goes on and on and on and I love

that um and I wish I would have probably

understood that earlier about myself

because that would have allowed myself

to uh not model so much on other people

but but um somehow U be more

introspective and listen to

myself and I think that's really one of

the things I I take away from you said

very eloquently is that your proof that

entrepreneurs can Buck a number of

different Trends you know and still be

wildly successful and that evidence

means to someone like me that there's no

such thing as a entrepreneur in terms of

how they operate what they're interested

in um and that there's many ways to be a

successful entrepreneur and it really

from what you've just said there the

most Surefire way of becoming a

successful entrepreneur is actually

looking inward versus looking outwards

at like oh how does Elon do it or how

does Mark do it or how does Daniel do it

yeah um which stays with me a lot

because it's really changed my thinking

on a few really important things that I

think I've been

yeah I've been limit I've been limiting

myself on um Daniel thank you so much

thank you so much for having me building