But I do personally think it's the best

thing I've ever done in my whole life.

Full stop. And I was like, look, you're

clearly insane. Like I'm I've never

drank alcohol. And I'm not going to

touch an illegal drug. But the biggest

interference is death. It's not my I

don't choose the time. I don't choose

like and we need to change that.

My guest today is a friend, but he's

also

most definitely the most interesting

human being I have ever encountered in

my life. He's an entrepreneur. He's an

investor, but he's also just a really

nice guy. And he's invested and started

companies in some of the most

fascinating industries from psychedelics

to space tech to artificial intelligence

to cryptocurrencies to fintech. You name

it, he's in there. In fact, he's the

single biggest investor slashd driving

force behind the whole psychedelics

industry which is currently trying to

cure mental health disorders. This is

undoubtedly the most interesting person

I know and I think this is the type of

podcast where you're going to demand a

part two because we spoke for 2 hours

and even I was left feeling that I was

only scratching the surface and that I

wanted to know more. The man I'm talking

about is Christian Anamaya. And I

genuinely believe he's going to become,

if he isn't already, one of Europe's

most important investors and

entrepreneurs. In the same way that

people praise Elon Musk for all the work

he's done in the US, I think he's

Europe's answer to Elon Musk. Without

further ado, I'm Steven Butler and this

is the D of a CEO. I hope nobody's

listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself.

Christian, I I know so much about you

and the work you do. I I know your, you

know, I've observed your behavior in

person over the last, you know, six 6 to

12 months. Um, deeply deeply

fascinating. But the part of you that I

know very very little about is your

early years, your upbringing, your

childhood.

Cute child.

Really?

I I've been fascinated by

I think it was a cute child.

I've only heard slithers of that part of

your life. So could you tell me a little

bit more about

the childhood that made the man?

The the main point I'm always making

which I'm really literally happy about

is that I was a very very happy child.

Meaning I'm still a very happy person.

But I think the reason why I'm

groundedly happy is because I had a

great like how do you say um childlike

upbringing like I was growing up in a 90

people village. Um, so

Bavaria in Bavaria

in Bavaria I literally knew everybody

then there were a lot of other children

so I'm an only child but like I had a

lot of children sort of same age plus -

4 years to to grow up with um and we

were literally like in a TV series we

were out all day like in summer in

winter like it was very much like you

would picture like what is these

American TV series where they might they

own on a farm or whatever like it was

like that like sort of um

idyllic childhood

really idyllic like yeah no crime like

no risk like I was literally my mom sent

me out in the morning uh in summer

winter and I came back in the evening

since I'm like five like I was because

there was no risk for anything like

um yeah so that was sort of the very

very this was till I'm 9 and then we

moved to a town mini city town with like

2,000 people so it's nearby like kil

kilometer apart um so it was all very

very rural very which I liked. So I'm

actually was thinking about if I have

children or when I have children then

how to recreate that which I think won't

work. So, but like I think it's great to

have nature which is also by the way I

mean already jumping but like yeah

because you know that I do a lot in in

mental health work like and one thing

which is really healthy very very simple

for your mental health is nature like

there is even in Japan they prescribe

like a walk in the forest as a as a

treatment for depression. So anyway, so

I grew up in these super nice childhood.

Like I always was funnily um very

entrepreneurial. Yeah. And nobody else

is. So not in my family, not in this

village. Like so that was always

literally like with six. My mom still

has the So the first thing which I did

when I learned writing was writing

invoices like so tiny bills like oh give

me five give me five cent for for

salads. So I was actually had a very

flourishing gardening business.

So since I'm four like five

how's it going?

Sorry wrong English term. So

psychedelics.

No, I I stopped it later on when I was

12. I was like, "No, but this how I

started my first business." But my mom

still remembers that the first thing I

did with my writing skills was writing

her an invoice for salad and everything.

And then I was literally like in a

movie. It's very stereotype, but I was

selling um lemonade to neighbors.

Then I was selling lollipops in school.

I was selling literally everything. Like

I made a business out of everything. So

I I remember when I went to the my first

cinema um ever uh I think I was like

seven. Um then I was so fascinated that

people are buying for something which is

apparently also on TV. They didn't get

the difference. So then I started

charging my parents at home when they

wanted to switch on the TV because I was

pretending I was running a cinema.

So uh yeah. So every literally

everything I was doing I saw through the

lens of a business

and and when you look at your children

my parents were deeply worried in a nice

way but they were worried.

They always tend to be with with kids

that are slightly different

but they they Exactly. I Yeah. So I look

like them. So the discussion if they

maybe not my parents was early off the

table. Yeah. But like sort of from the

way how I see the world and I'm very

different.

What were the factors, the sort of macro

factors at play that were making you

into this entrepreneur at that age, but

also the entrepreneur you came to

become?

It was always there. Like I

sometimes I think for myself, I think

because my parents were never around,

they create this big sort of void of

freedom and independence, which I

thought made this connection in my mind

that if I was going to get something, it

came from my behavior. I'm thinking

about those factors

that, you know, freedom. You said, you

know, I've heard you say that your

parents were very keen for you just to

be happy.

Yeah, exactly. like they were always

like I can be whatever I want. So, but

it was not that I don't I don't know if

that automatically leads to

entrepreneurship. It could also have led

to me being an artist or whatever. Like

I don't think there is a connection

between freedom. It's actually the

freedom to be whatever you want. And

then I think maybe you maybe it's

genetic. Maybe it's like I don't know

like u I this is the the point meaning

it was always there. There is not there

is not a moment I can think of where I

sort of

changed but it was literally since I can

think since I'm four five six like very

very early it was always there to make a

business out of everything in a nice way

hopefully

that coupled with some kind of innate

curiosity which is you Peter the said

when he did did a quote about you in

sifted he said that curiosity is one of

your real sort of

Yeah but I don't I just thinking if that

was that early visible I loved school

which I think I was a very nerdy child

as well. So I yeah I um I loved actually

I did love school for and even meaning

now more talking than later high school

for the one reason and even if I look

back now I really miss it a bit because

it was the only time in life where you

do something for the pure reason of

learning something with no material sort

of meaning I turned that then also in a

business because I started my my this

was my first real business was when I

started a tutoring business when I was

14. Um and then I um

what was that business? Tell me.

Tutoring like like giving sort of other

kids. Yeah. Because I was extremely good

in school. So I was always the best one

in my school but I was practically

always the best one in like the Bavaria

or whatever. Like top 10. Yeah. And I

was always I like to explain stuff. So

So I think I think that still helps me

now because it's part of fundraising to

explain complex sort of things to

people. Anyway, so I liked I I did like

to explain stuff and I did like to um

and I I was good in the matter. So So I

started tutoring. Then there was this

tiny thing I I think a bit that because

the teachers very much liked me because

I was always like uh the good child like

everybody who came to me automatically

became a little bit better because

teachers were treating these children

more nicer because they were coming to

me. So it became this sort of um

positive virtual circle that more and

more parents were like oh god we have to

send our children to Christian because

it really works and I think

and what were you doing for these kids?

Well, tutoring like how

teaching them the same thing the same

thing because they were these were the

the ones who didn't perform well. How

you call it English? Tutoring, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Too. And they were your

peers. They were the same age.

Same age or younger? No. Or younger.

Like it was mainly like a little bit

younger. Like one or two years, but not

a lot younger.

So anyway, and then I was like after

half a year I was so like full. Like I

think I worked like

10 15 hours a week uh practically all

the time. like it was tutoring like and

then I was like how do I really scaled

it up and it sounds now very um I don't

know very banal yeah but for me this was

like the first time I really thought

about business like in an

entrepreneurial way how do you scale it

up and practically I realized I have the

brand because parents want to send their

children to me um so I was employing

other uh other pupils my same age or

even a little bit older and said you can

teach under my brand and you get half of

it and I get half of it. So 50% margin

and I started employing and I

continuously till my final grade had

like

10 people like always employed.

Yeah. Who were tutoring other children.

Yeah. So it was a very lucrative

business. Um meaning for for a child

like but

it's crazy. Absolutely crazy.

And then so you get to 16, you get to 18

in that period of your life. I hear that

in Bavaria they have this like public

service you've got to do for a year.

Yeah. I just was thinking like how

compliant do I have to be because then

it's all I think what is it called when

it's out of time is back like nobody

nobody can claw it back like because

what happened is like I was always

extremely libertarian

and in we had back then it changed in

Germany but we had back then like the

Israelis have still you had to go to the

military for a year and I think in

generally this is wrong not because I'm

against the military but I think you can

employ people this is a job like people

would should want to be a soldier or

should want to be something else. But I

I think as a government meaning I in

general you think the less government

the better. So I I was thinking

hopefully this comes across charm but

because I was thinking all the time how

to avoid it. Unfortunately I was not

daring enough back then. There were

tricks to do it like you could have had

said you're sort of mentally ill or

whatever like I was not brave enough to

go on with that. So I I decided to do um

you can you could also opt to do civil

servant. I s civil servant like to go to

a hospital or whatever. So and I tried

to be really nice. So I picked a job

which I knew is it didn't really require

me. It was more like okay you had to put

these children who didn't want to go to

the military. You could say you're

pacifist. You had to put them somewhere.

It was not that somebody was dependent

on me. So I was sitting in that hospital

and my only job was to bring stuff from

A to B like whatever. So then I made an

I remember that I made um um how do you

say a proposal that if we reorganize

everything in the hospital I could do my

job in an hour and then go home. Yeah.

So this was I was 18 and then they were

like okay this is crazy like it's not

really really uh popular. Um, so and

then I made a decision that I'm not

really going to show up anymore. Um and

the only way to do that was to um to get

always like doctors to give me like um

letter

a letter and so now comes but the

important point because like till that

time I um I was extremely like I loved

learning so I was actually thinking I'm

going to if if I would have gone and I

think this is sometimes how crazy stuff

happens and then it changes sort of the

whole course of your whole life

practically. So I think if if I would

have gone from high school to

university, I I would would have just

been in that sort of mode like of

learning being extremely good. So I

guess I would have just went on with

what I was doing like meaning producing

great academic outcome so to say. So

then came this one year which I was

completely bored. So I I got these

doctors um writing me letters that I

didn't need to show up but in return I

started managing money for them because

I was already speculating on the stock

market since I was like 15 16 and I was

not bad in it. So I became friends with

all of these doctors even in the

hospital I was working and they were all

like well we help you if you help us

because this was the early days of the

or not you know like this was 1998

1999 like this was the stock market boom

whatever. So everybody wanted to be in

it. So this was sort of my trade-off for

these letters.

Um and so and I can't be I'm I'm easily

bored. So I always want to do something.

So practically because so I was not the

type of person who was okay I have a

free year now and I'm going just

partying like I was like okay I have a

free year now I'm going to do more

tutoring. Yeah. And I'm going to do

managing money for these doctors. Yeah.

And sort of that completely switched my

how do you say course like so I wasn't

this I actually wrote the book yeah and

tried to sell that this didn't work out

but I did a lot of entrepreneurial stuff

just because I had time. Yeah. And then

when I practically went to uni then a

year later I was sort of mentally not

anymore in that sort of learning world.

I was in the okay I want to be an

entrepreneur world. And then I was and

this sort of when I met we met uh

actually two guys who finally were my

tutors in a scholarship I had had during

high school already like for sounds

awkward but for highly gifted children.

Yeah. So I was sort of in summer

summer school that was the university

this where I knew them from. We rem kind

of and they were telling me about this

idea and it just sounded great and they

were like my tutors in terms of I was

like okay these guys are the pinnacle of

biotech. Um and then I I was the one

let's do a company together and u we did

and this worked out really well and then

I dropped out of uni. So this how I

think this how was this sort of I think

without this one year in hospital or

sort of one year in hospital not in

hospital. Yeah. I would have stayed in a

completely different path.

I hear you talk a lot about you believe

in like the serendipity

and spirituality which almost seems

surprising because you're such like a

scientific person whereas you do you do

believe that things happen at the right

time.

Totally totally actually I'm actually

very extreme with that. So I everything

which has happening literally everything

this conversation today

well this conversation happens because

we planned it yeah but like the fact for

example that we met originally yeah why

mutual friend whatever so I'm always

everything which is happening to me

which I didn't actively say hey I need

to have a meeting like which is not in

my usual

rhythm yeah I always think a it's

happening for a reason and also it's

happening for a good reason even bad

stuff I believe even this power of

positive thinking but like more like

people always then say ah this means

like if you wake up in the morning

you're if you feel great it's going to

be a great day I think it's more deeper

I believe in this what there is this

great book law of attraction like

whatever you sort of think and rather

how you think not just meaning sort of

the essence what you think not like the

detail partly but more the essence and

if you expect sort of good stuff to

happen you're sort of attracting that

yeah

you think there's a do you think there's

a spiritual force that attracts it or do

you your intention moves you in that

direction.

So, look, I'm very pragmatic, meaning I

I mean, first of all, I dare to talk

about this stuff because I'm very also

scientific. So, I'm like, look, nobody

will think I'm crazy. Yeah. Uh, maybe a

bit. No, no, I'm joking. Like, so, but

the other thing is like there are

multiple explanations and I don't really

care about the explanation. You can have

a very spiritual explanation. Yeah. It's

the force of the universe. Yeah. And

then you can have a very pragmatic

explanation that if you continuously

expect positive stuff, then you look out

for that stuff and then it's more like a

a numbers game or like a Yeah. But and I

don't care like it it works tremendously

well for me since I'm 16. Yeah. And I

had these I had some very crazy things

which go borderline which you could

explain like sort of with statistics or

whatever. Yeah. Um, so maybe too crazy

on the show for that, but but like but

there were some there were some things

where I tend to believe in the spiritual

explanation. Yeah, because they were

Yeah, I think harder to explain or you

can always explain it with statistic

like you know what I mean like but I

don't care like it does work

tremendously well for me.

Okay, so going back to this company you

founded with these two your two sort of

like university mentors. This company

went on to be really successful. I think

you said it's worth probably about 15

billion at last check market cap

today but like I sold very early but

very early I sold when we went public

for a billion so it was it was one it

was actually pun

do you regret selling

well there's there's a short and long

answer no because like the short answer

is no because like a that money was the

basis for the rest yeah b also people

always mix up market cap and share price

so meaning I sold at the lower share

price that it's today but the share

price is not 15x X because they did

capital increases, there was dilutive

stuff like so, so anyway, long story, it

was an amazing start. Yeah. So, um,

yeah, it was actually the quickest

biotech IPO I think in Germany ever. Uh,

we IPOed 3 years, three and a half years

later after foundation

and for a billion. So, it was was

everything. Um, and it was sort of I

dropped out of university before, but it

like was the sort of sort of

catalyst

catalyst I would say. Yeah. So, I I

don't regret that. And uh and since then

sort of I'm investing and being an

entrepreneur. I'm somewhat in between. I

would say I actually sorry when I'm

jumping I had this one story again by

the way which is completely you can

serendipitous

serendipitous and like even a little bit

more. So I remember it exactly. I was 14

years old and I was uh with my best

friends back then in Munich which is far

away. I mean for me this was like going

going to the big street like um and we

so we spent the weekend with family

members. I mean I really I remember

remember every single detail of the

weekend like what we did and like where

what and we went to a bookstore which is

for Germans who listen hook and dub is a

back then was like sort of like a I

don't know iconic bookstore 100 years

old in Munich I think it's still even

there although books are dying out um

smaller um so it's in the prime location

of Munich and so I remember it so I go

into that bookstore and there was these

whole how I say promot ocean

wall. Yeah. With just one book

which uh which which is uh the American

Think and Grow Rich from Napoleon Hill.

And do you know like when in movies like

the 14-year-old boy goes in and then the

light is coming down and then the

Hallelujah is coming. Sort of that

meaning there was no music, there was no

light. I was like that's it. Think and

grow rich. I need to have that book. So

I bought the book and it was practically

my first kind of I mean Napoleon Hill is

not as spiritual as some others. Yeah.

But like that was my journey into that

world of let's say spiritual infused

success

books.

How do you define spiritual?

Well there is like Napoleon Hill is sort

of and I love it by the way because

they're all so old like they're all out

of the 1920s. So they they don't have

the zeitgeist which I think in terms of

success is rather negative like so it's

sort of like raw American

horny principles.

Yes. Uh exactly like um and Napoleon

Hill has this why he was a great entry

into that thing because his view was if

you read many of the book starts that he

says he got commissioned by um Andrew

Carnegie who was the steel magnet to

find out and do interviews which I think

by the way you are doing in a certain

way. Yeah. With successful people um and

find out if there are common traits uh

you say traits yeah common denominators

which make them successful. And he did

that with all the famous people of his

time from Andrew Carnegie himself to a

lot of other famous people. And then he

made that into the book and he's

actually saying that

the question he doesn't answer the

question why these uh rules so to say

work. He's more a neutral observer. And

then the next one is actually there's a

guy called Dr. Joseph Murphy who wrote

similar books but more like with the

spiritual undertone why these rules

work. same rules sort of more

explanation why they work which went

more into the religious world and then

you have all the other book and law of

attraction is nothing else which is sort

of the modern version and the key which

is a sort of a simplified version of an

anyway simplified version yeah of this

stuff like but it's at the end it's

always the same rules some which think

it's they are god-given some which say

look again this is statistics whatever

but they do work I I deeply believe and

these things do

Yeah. Um which is

like visualization the the way you

think.

It's visualization is that the the main

thing I think is two things is

visualization. So I meditate in the

morning and the evening but it's not

real meditation. It's more like

visualization. So I ex I always have a

plan for the week for the months for the

year for my life. Yeah. And everything

kind of did come true so far. So I'm

always thinking what could I add like a

wish list. Yeah. And now again you can

say if you add something and then you

you focused on it it might come true

because you focused on it. There could

be a very banal explanation that it's

relentless execution and nothing magic

and again I don't care. It's like I'm

like well like yeah it does work. So and

the visual I think it's the two things.

It's visualization and it's also these

that you have for example I'm not it

sounds very crazy but I'm trying to not

have negative thoughts. So, and then

there is a number of negative thoughts

you're going to have anyway because you

have to deal with stuff when you run a

business. But I, for example, I have

never watched a horror movie since 20

years at least because it gives me

negativity. So I and I I go the extra

mile. So I told for example friends when

they are too much complaining meaning

I'm and the first one friends can call

for a problem but then I'm like let's go

through the problem. That's the

solution. That's what you're going to

do. But if they would repeatedly because

some people want to not solve the

problem. They want to repeat the

problem. Then I'm like, you can't call

me again on that topic because no

negativity. Yeah. So I really have a

rule. Yeah. So no negative movies. I

never watch a movie which has no a happy

ending. So I have people check or I

check. Yeah. Before does it have a happy

ending? No bad endings. Nothing which

makes me sad. Nothing which makes me

negative. because I'm not I'm not

allowed in my own religious philosophy

to have negative thoughts and feelings.

Feelings are even more important than

thoughts because I think they are the

underlying driver. So, and it sounds now

maybe cheesy and simplified, but I think

if you this is what I'm doing since I'm

14 and if you train yourself not and

again you will always have an sort of

amount because sometimes hard things

happen. Yeah. And I don't want to

pretend as if my life was easy because I

did have very hard times in business.

But even in those times I was lying in

my bed literally and was like okay this

is not fun what's happening right now

but it must happen for a very very

positive reason because this is how your

world works and funnily it always the

worst things in my life turned into the

best ones. Yeah. So because I again and

you can say now maybe somebody would say

well because he was persistent and he

didn't fall. Okay then this is the

explanation. Maybe there's a deeper one.

I don't again I don't care. I can always

come to but I would tell everybody the

two things emotionally is like don't

have negative thoughts. Just focus on

positive sort of thoughts. Visualize

these are the key things. Be happy. so

many things that you know

and dare to be happy because most people

are again don't allow themselves to be

happy and even think it's a little bit

negative. So there's this whole thing

happening on Instagram that I want to

come back to this point about this

movies and cuz I think it's very much

linked to your whole thing about alcohol

and stuff. This this happiness

equilibrium you talk about, but just

quickly on that point of being really

positive and unapologetically positive

and saying, "Listen, don't call me with

the same problem twice. Don't interrupt

my positivity." There's this whole

movement happening on Instagram at the

moment where there's such a thing as

being toxic positive. It's called

[ __ ] Like no. And I like getting on

this point like because that's one thing

I think I meaning again maybe so I have

to so maybe I'm sitting there I'm

already so old that there is another

generation I'm thinking about the other

generation and because I'm reading a lot

like very old stuff and you find soc

complaining about the youth. So maybe

that's a recurring thing. Yeah. But I

really think part part of the millennial

culture of these victimization and

always like blah is this is so wrong.

This is so wrong. Yeah. So to pretake a

question because then normally we say

well you saying that because you're

rich, you're white. Yeah. So I was like

okay this is maybe a point. Let's go

back because I didn't talk a lot about

it but I'm happy it's already like

I grew up in these 90 people village.

Yeah. I'm gay. I'm actually happily gay,

but I look meaning I know I'm I'm gay

since I'm 11ish round about. So, and I

was looking at sort of that world I was

growing up in and I was like that's not

going to resonate here. Yeah. So,

seriously like and that's very very uh

very uh positive phrased. Yeah. So, in

my school people were saying let's beat

up gay people and I was like that's not

going to end well. So, but I didn't

think that is anything bad by the way. I

didn't even think these people were sort

of wrong and obviously they were wrong

but I was like they don't know better.

I'm not like ah these are bad people. I

was just like be pragmatic. Sometimes

life is not fair. Sometimes life is not

nice but you can decide if you react on

it. That's one of the other points I

really believe in that you have these

tiny millisecond in life on everything.

If somebody is sort of rude to you, if

somebody says something very bad and you

can decide if you hurt or not. It's your

decision by the way. Nothing's gonna

hurt you if you decide you're not going

to be hurt. Yeah. So, and I was like,

they don't know better and I can't by

the way. And by the way, gay is not what

defines me. So, I was like, well, then

I'm I'm not gay for a while till I'm out

of here. Yeah. I can't because there are

other things which define me like

friends like you know like you know what

I mean? Like it's not that I reduced

myself to this one thing and was like

and now I need to shout it out to the

world and in return would have get

beaten up. Like I was like just like

just don't do it like but don't blame

the others. Yeah. And then move away

somewhere. Also I I mean this whole like

don't try to change everybody else. Work

on yourself and like and your

environment what you can change. Like I

could have started like oh my god my

life is miserable and I'm growing up in

this village and blah blah blah. And

actually talk about serendipity. I'm I'm

honestly I'm but again I'm trained to

see the positive stuff. If I look back,

if I would have been straight, I

wouldn't sit here for a very simple

reason because I would have dated every

single free minute I would have had like

Yeah. and would have enjoyed that. Yeah.

So, but I couldn't. So, so what did I

do? I was working my ass off and

learning all the time. So, and if I

hadn't had the grades I had, I would

have ended the first money I had, I

would have never met these guys with

whom I started a biotech company. Yeah.

and nothing would have happened. I would

have been an ordinary straight boy. Most

likely smart. Yeah. But not uber smart

because sometimes it's smart and hard

work to get grades. Yeah. It's not all

falls and fun. So, so, so the

practically the if you say like the the

ad, how do you say adversary or the

negative thing being gain a very hostile

environment and not talking about it and

focusing on other stuff completely made

my life. Yeah. In a very positive way. I

I I would I mean Yeah. I I'm so happy

that this was the case. Yeah. And again

and everybody should look everybody has

um limitations and negative stuff but

you should look at it and say they are

there for a very positive reason and

something amazing will come out of it. I

just need to have this continuous sort

of expectation

and optimism and and you have a real

sense of like personal responsibility

that comes across like you'll take

responsibility for yourself and your

actions

but who else but it's like who else

should woman or you know someone else.

We see that with the vaccine. Give the

government a little bit of uh

responsibility and it goes totally

wrong. You don't want anybody be

responsible for you than yourself.

So going to this point about the horror

films which I thought was somewhat

connected to what I've heard about your

rule with alcohol and cigarettes. You I

hear you've never drunk before ever.

You've never had a drink.

Exactly. So there were two reasons for

it and they were connected. The one,

again, by the way, the one reason was

because I was actually thinking like if

I'm going to be drunk 14, 15, I'm going

to spill out I'm gay and then it's over.

So, so my social life of being the

darling of the school that day.

Yeah. Exactly. No. And I was also like I

was very nerdy, so teachers loved me,

but I was also how you say school

speaker, speaker of the school,

whatever. So, I was socially had a great

life. So, I was like, "No, let's not

risk that." Like, no alcohol, you could

say the wrong stuff. Yeah. So that was

the one thing and the other thing was

that I always sort of because you do

that as a child but in general and I

think it's a good thing like if you have

one weakness in my case the weakness for

the time was being gay the other you

build on your strengths which was like

okay I think I'm kind of smart and also

like smart in terms of learning smart I

learned very easy I always had the best

grades yeah so I was I was sort of

focusing on that so I was also like okay

alcohol could take that away from me uh

because I thought it makes me dumb which

by the way was yeah in a lot of amounts

I still wouldn't drink but so these were

my childish reasons not to drink and

then I just decided okay I think I have

the perfect equilibrium like uh being

always happy having very good grades

everything was perfect so I was like I'm

not going to touch any drug ever

and you still haven't touched alcohol

cigarettes

no so I have not I haven't drank alcohol

I haven't smoked a cigarette ever I

haven't smoked a joint ever I have not

take cocaine I haven't anything like

no comment

I did I did actually drink alco the

first time when I was sorry echo sorry

right sorry coffee uh the first time

when I was 28

so you avoided coffee as well

I was even avoiding coffee and tea yeah

because it was a drug it was almost like

the the very religious people so I would

have been a good Mormon um so um but

then coffee I started drinking when I

was 28

there's something crazy here where you

think okay so the guy that doesn't want

to upset his equilibrium goes on to be

the biggest psychedelics investor in the

world which is all about

I think there was a very good ground

because what happened is so I had u a

discussion or a dinner. It wasn't a

discussion. It was like a dinner

discussion like we were set somebody sat

us next to each other with funnily the

joke and said, "Oh, you the guy was a

very or is a very famous um drug

researcher like he's the David Nut of

Germany like the a drug uh yeah adviser

to the government and yeah a

neuroscientist and somebody said, "Oh,

you should two should sit next to each

other because maybe you can loosen

Christian up a bit and he could drink a

little bit of alcohol." So, so this is

how I met Rhino on his name again.

Ex. No, but like exactly like again by

but everybody else would have said I

remember that I was like oh my god

that's awesome like and everybody else

would have said well I again and every

single thing happening I see it's good

for me. Yeah. So um so anyway so we had

this discussion and I think the short

version is he was like look everything

you think is bad is bad like so don't

touch it. Exactly. He actually showed me

these and uh whoever is watching and

maybe I don't know if you can put it

into the the like Yeah. So like this

this famous very famous but it's so um

to the point meaning he's David Nut in

the UK wrote a whole book about the

misperception of drugs but this one like

he had this one chart which David not

made and Rhina pulled it pulled it off

in the internet where you can see sort

of the harm um of each drug.

Yeah. So how much harm there was this

harm scale and Bradley on number one is

alcohol even in a in a holistic approach

alcohol is the worst

and then closely followed by heroin

which by the way the media used a little

bit against David Nut which was highly

unfair because the headline I remember I

think in the sun or whatever was like oh

guy says heroin is better than alcohol.

No the thing is like they're both very

very bad like but alcohol is as well. We

have these

and this is the chart that says the harm

to you and the harm to others

both. It's it's it's in one. So yeah, a

chart that shows the harm that these

different drugs have on you and others

and alcohol is the worst.

Exactly. Always the worst, but closely

followed by heroine. Yeah. And closely

followed by um crystal math or whatever.

Like everything is bad. And I really

like if there is one positive outcome of

people watching that don't do it. But

don't do alcohol, don't do heroin, don't

do crystal mask, don't nothing. No,

there is no by the way and I'm the most

again pragmatic person because what I

was talking with him was like is there

any drug there could be a drug where you

say oh it has a little bit of downside

but it has enormous upside and then you

can think for yourself again you are

responsible I don't think the government

should be responsible to think for

myself is there any upside of me taking

that risk because if I go in a car I

came to you in a car so I took a risk of

dying meaning very low But there was a

risk. But I was it's worth to sit with

Stephen and do their podcast. Like no,

but everything we do in life, by the

way, people should look at it's like a

risk return. Yeah. So maybe somebody

says, "Oh, if I smoke a joint once in a

while, it makes me so relaxed." Anyway,

but you should be aware of the risks.

And I think people aren't, especially

not with alcohol. Yeah. And if you then

still decide actively, I'm going to

enjoy my glass of wine, then I think

it's great, but you should know it

anyway. So, but at the end of that scale

it said um

um probably at the very end is

mushrooms, magic mushrooms and before

the very end is the second sort of

easiest or second lowest risk is is LSD.

Practically the psychedelic group of uh

of drug and he was like Christian like I

can't tell you what my host told me to

tell you that you should try alcohol.

Don't meaning I can also tell you're not

going to die but like don't do it. Yeah.

uh but you should do actually magic

mushrooms. And I was like, "Look, you're

clearly insane. Like I'm I've never

drank alcohol and I'm not going to touch

an illegal drug." Yeah. And he was very

very uh

persuasive because he was like, "Look,

first of all, you do biotech. You

started your career in biotech. Like I

send you um I send you all the research

I did or I do." But also, which was very

cool, hindsight. I didn't even value it

back then. He was like, I did my PhD

with famous Hoffman who invented LSD.

So, so Ret was replucked into like the

old guard of psychedelic luminaries. And

he was like, I sent you all what what he

did like read it because there were all

these studies. It's not like an crazy

idea meaning again actually magic

mushrooms or the ingredient pseudocybin

was used as an approved medical drug in

the 50s by sandals actually very uh at

least in Germany famous um um brand um

for for depression he was like look it

was medical it has no risk as you can

see I tell you as in the older studies

at least read it and again I'm very

curious I was like well send me I'm so

that was actually against serendipity

and so and now comes the biggest

serendipity because like so for one year

I was just like not meaning it's not

that I had it on my mind every day I was

it was there like I read a little bit

here and by the way again I know a

there's even a book about that but which

says what some people believe is destiny

is just like if you aware of a theme

yeah it's a little bit like when I tell

you don't think of the blue elephant or

the white whatever you think of it like

so there is this one book I can't

remember the name which again would be

fine for me like because again it works

was like if you are aware of a thing of

a theme then it pops up everywhere.

Yeah. So over a year there were not a

lot because it was completely not in the

public domain but like there were once

here and there I was like okay read

something again whatever and then more

or less exactly one year later I was

with my best friends who

actually have a steak in a tie so

they're happy with my best friends in

the Caribbean. Uh, so disclaimer, it was

a place u where where it's legal. Um,

and they had magic mushrooms and they

had it like it looked like mushrooms.

Like this was good because I I'm so

hypocchondric and frightened of

everything. So I would never have taken

anything which didn't look like

mushrooms. So these were dried

mushrooms. Like so I was like see from

the ground.

Yeah. I was like, "Okay, that looks

real." Like and they were like and I

trust them. They're my best friends.

Yeah. So big shout out to Landon and

Julian. Yeah. So I trust them anyway.

They were like, "Look, we grew it

ourselves." So like safe. We know what

we're doing. Yeah. Um and I was like

actually calling Rhina and

the guy you'd met in Germany.

Yes. So I'm not mentioning his last name

because I don't know if he he works

still in a very famous job. Uh and I he

was actually saying the sentence, look,

as your doctor friend do it. It's the

best place, best people. You know it's

real.

Setting everything is perfect. do it.

So, so I took all my courage I had. Um,

I was really like and it's it sounds now

I can't say how nervous I was in sort of

both anxious and positive like it was

like really not maybe people say, "Oh,

he's talking about magic all the time.

It must have been an easy decision." It

was not. Yeah. For days and I was like,

"Okay, let's do it." I still know

exactly the point on the beach. Yeah. Uh

because we're going there every Easter

and somewhere I'm going to put a big

magic mushroom statue here. Uh I really

will. I really will. I know the guys who

own the island. So I Yeah, they already

know of it. Actually, the guy who owns

the island is now a shareholder at Tai

as well. So everybody is literally

everybody. So um so I did it and it was

the single most meaningful thing. Full

stop. And by the way, it confirmed

everything I just said. So because what

a lot of people report is that um that

um you

it's a very spiritual experience and in

that case it was not just a spiritual

experience but it really confirmed 100%

my fuel in life which is by the way

interesting because if we look now at

people because a lot of people ask me

especially successful people they're

like oh I've read somebody takes it and

then he's want to be a farmer in Brazil.

by the way, which was my biggest fear.

My biggest fear was like, I'm going to

come out of that and I'm going to change

my whole life because I realize that I

don't know, I want to do something else.

Hindsight, I tell everybody that look at

me and look at others. We have both. We

have people like me who come out are

very even more happy. But it for me it

was a very big confirmation of what I'm

doing. Yeah. Um because um Yeah. I don't

mean not because like it was a

confirmation like okay you see the world

in the right way everything what you do

how you do you can work on it so I got a

lot of ideas how to make it better but

like sort of the message was you're on

the right path so some other people come

out and the message is look you have to

do something completely what is why is

it different it's actually the same what

it does I think one sort of how you say

one description of of psychedelics is in

general they

you realize or you um you recognize

yourself and all your sort of positive

and all your dreams all your trauma and

everybody has a bit of trauma must not

be a real so everything and then and

some people and then I was always

hindsight I can say now I was right like

I or I was right I I I was good in it I

was always living a very honest life to

myself again doesn't mean that I say hey

I decided for example not to tell

anybody I'm gay. But that's not from my

point of view, this was not a lie

because it's my decision. But it was not

a lie to myself. Yeah. It was an active

decision to just make my life

suppressing it. It was not suppressing

it. I was just like pragmatically. Yeah.

By the way, it was also very simple.

There was also nobody to date. I was

very simple like no. Exactly. Risk risk

return. There was no upside because

there was nobody who would have

appreciated that. Yeah. And if there

would have been a hot guy and I was like

he's gay, I'm gay. I was like, hey,

immediately like but there was no

upside. but a lot of downside. Anyway,

but what I'm saying is like I always

lived a very honest life um to myself.

Yeah. Again, this doesn't mean you have

to shout everything out and this was

confirmed. So other people who don't

live an honest life to themsel and lie

to themsel and maybe tell themselves

that they are happy with XY Z, they

might realize on a magic motion trip

that they're not like they need and this

is the other people who change. Yeah.

But so it's very dependent on Yeah. But

it was just one aspect of so many

positive aspects and then sort of I

immediately after the trip had sort of

the idea okay this should be actually

legal. I was actually not even the first

impetus was not that I should make a

company because I was very sure people

must work on that stuff because it's so

powerful and when I then found out

actually it took me two years I was

looking around like that there was none

then we did it ourselves.

Just to go back to that point though you

you you categorize that moment your

first trip as the single most meaningful

experience of your life.

Yeah. today full stop nothing comes

close

and maybe I would add plus the follow on

trips over the last year so it's not

just this one trip I would say as well

but I would I would I would summarize my

psychedelic experience and I still like

try to do a trip once or twice a year in

a country where it's legal yeah I would

summarize as the most meaningful sort of

holistic experience I've had in my life

full yeah for sure like

you do this trip um on the beach with

your friends, you you think to yourself,

you know, this must be legal. Fast

forward, you get a call from one of your

friends called Mike.

No, it's way No, it's way crazier. It's

way crazier. Again, super serendipity.

So, fast forward for 2 years, I was very

very carefully looking around and

actually not telling a lot of people

about it, which was wrong. And if I

would have gone on like that,

I wouldn't sit here again. Meaning, at

least not now. I would sit here. maybe

but like not talking about mushrooms or

my psychedelics. So for two years I was

kind of extremely holding back. So I

told my closest friends actually the

ones who knew me very well

saw that or positive like my parents

were like hey you became an even nicer

child. We have an amazing relationship

but it became even better. So my mom was

very quickly saying something happened

in your holiday. Yeah. Yeah. So, so um

so, so the ones who knew me well, but

like I didn't shout it out and I was

actually very very

careful and shy because it's like

technically Yeah. And back then, by the

way, let's not forget like we're talking

about it also now so easily because all

the books came out, we have the success

like compasses listed like

now is completely different than so

anyway. So for two years I was very like

lowkey. Yeah. And then I had be and

again this is like maybe the biggest

financial serendipity uh or like message

of the universe if you want to see it

like that because for two years I was

sort of like just telling friends very

close friends and then I had u one other

trip within a holiday trip. The main

message on that trip was Christian this

makes you so happy you have to talk to

other people about this don't be shy

just good thing will come out things

will come out if you talk about it so I

had a real mission so I got this real

mission on that trip to sort of be open

about it and then actually from that

holiday I was flying literally the week

after I met a very close friend and

business partner of mine Mike Novagrat

um who's big in finance and like huge

huge.

Yeah. So, but he's he's not what I want

to say he's not the guy who would talk

about mushrooms normally and I wouldn't

have had but he was my test case because

I had the mission. The mission was don't

be afraid talk about me because it's

going to be good for you and the world.

So, I met Mike and he literally Mike is

always like that. What's up? Because I

think I do cool stuff like from other

stuff. So, a lot of friends are always

like, "Hey, what's new? What's up? What

you investing in?" I was like, "Mike,

you won't believe it. I just had a

mushroom trip and this was amazing and I

want to talk tell you about it and he

was like this wa mushroom like I I

remember Mike said the the sentence like

he hasn't talked about it hadn't back

then for like 20 years because

especially in the US a lot of people

it's like a college thing like

party

was like 20 years never heard about it

again since college so I told him all of

my experience on that trip um and in

general or so and he was like very

interested did. Yeah. And so the next

day, literally the next day, my phone

rings. Mike is on it and actually he

said it. Yeah. He said, "Look,

Christian, this is the weirdest

coincidence." So since 20 years or I

haven't talked about psychedelics for 20

years. Yesterday you were in my office

talking about nothing else than

psychedelics. And this morning, my

sister or sister, his sister called him.

So my sister called me and she's on Bali

with these crazy couple from London who

told her they want to start a company

which is working on bringing magic

mushrooms back in the legal realm and

they need somebody who's financing them

and nobody wants to touch it. And I was

like this is this is such a coincidence.

You in London they in London like Yeah.

And these are George and Katya the

founders of of Compass. Yeah. And I was

like connect me immediately. And I

remember this was January and then we

met when I was back and they were back

from Bali in February um 201.

Yeah. And I they tell if we talk about

like within the meeting I was like okay

we going we're going to do that

together. That's that's what I've waited

for since 2 years. And again if I hadn't

taken the decision to openly talk about

it um I wouldn't have told Mike. I

wouldn't have met George and Katya. We

wouldn't sit here at least not sit here

talking about this one. And the magic

mushrooms were the thing that told you

to talk about it.

That's right.

And you you end up being, you know, the

single biggest investor in the space, a

space which is now really sort of main

becoming more mainstream at an alarming

rate. A sort of a category that's

exploded from a financial perspective.

Um, and you've you've you've co-ounded

and invested in two the two biggest sort

of companies in this area and Compass

Pathways.

Exactly. So practically I co-founded

both in compass I was more the seed

investor because it was George's and

Katya's idea and I added actually a very

close friend of mine Lars as the third

co-founder and I was the seed investor

but sort of I was there

even before the company existed we were

sitting in my in my living room and

planning it and then when I realized how

positive or it was actually easier is

the wrong word but it was sort of I had

I had expected more

hurdles. Yeah. And it's maybe sadly

actually the time which is helping us

because there are so many people

suffering and it becomes sort of also

financially sometimes life is very the

world functions very pragmatic like in

the in the moment something becomes a

big crisis also financially. Yeah. The

yeah regulator. So anyway whatever it

was it was the right time. So, Compass

quickly actually got FDA

um fast track designation which was a

big thing stuff like that. So, and then

I actually realized oh there are more

psychedelics out there than meaning

everybody's always almost using magic

mushrooms and psychedelics as the same

but like we have the headline

psychedelics a group of drugs and

psilocybin the active ingredient in

magic mushrooms is one of them. So there

are more of them from MDMA to LSD,

ketamine, ibukane, whatever. And and

compass wanted always to focus on um on

psilocybin. So I was like, okay, then

I'm starting a Thai as sort of a

platform where we actually bring on more

more of these compounds to explore them

for mental health issues.

Of all the compounds in a Thai, and I

know there's a lot of them, right? I

think you've got over 13 compounds,

different psychedelic compounds within a

tie. Um, we've talked a lot about magic

mushrooms and that the active compound

in magic mushrooms for anybody that

doesn't know is psilocybin, which is

what compass pathway does. Of all the

others, and I know this is like I've

heard you say before, this is like

choosing your favorite child. Which ones

of the psychedelic compounds is

incredibly compelling to you and really

stands out is being able to have a

really significant impact?

That's really hard to say. I really I

really mean it because like it really

meaning because they all have all all

compounds we work on have a

sort of reason to exist or positive like

have a have a place in treating mental

health issues hopefully.

Tell me about ibain then.

Yeah. So so then now what I want is the

question is what is your

what does somebody sees as the biggest

problem? or name me the problem you

think is the worst and then I tell you

sort of which drug is the best like kind

of so so so I think I gain is this is is

interesting because also

because I gain goes against addiction

and there is actually almost nothing

else which works for addiction so

addiction we talk about here severe

addiction like especially to opioids and

heroin is sort of I don't know if you

can say it on English really [ __ ] up

like it's like that's one of the really

severe mental stuff like where most

people have um how do you call it like

um relapse relapse like and then it's

also one of these sort of things if you

look at I don't know families and

friends where somebody is addicted sort

of it's very like it's like cancer in in

in in the social environment so it's

sort of

it's it's but or I would even say any

mental health is like it's always

affecting others as well but I think

addiction sort of stands out in a

certain way and I gain is the only drug

we know which potentially I always have

to say with all these drugs potentially

because we are about to prove it once

and for all with scientific terms or

with scientific framework FDA sort of

compliant but I gain the potential to

really cure addiction with one trip.

Yeah. And that would be a massive game

changer for the whole opioid crisis. Uh

but even alcohol addiction like it's not

just opio like Yeah. And Yeah. you know,

you're trying to you're trying to make

people's lives better, right? You're

trying to get them. It almost seems

like, you know, because you've you've

been gifted enough to be happy your

whole life. You you're doing a lot to

make sure other people can be happy on

one end. But the other thing that you're

doing, which also kind of blew my mind

when I met you, is trying to extend

life. You know, you've got Elon who's

like trying to save life on Earth, but

also take us to a new one. And it seems

like, you know, Apiron, your investment

company is trying to make the life we

live more joyous and fulfilled, but also

trying to extend it. and the work you're

doing with life longevity I actually

find

maybe even more

bonkers. Like when I first heard about

psychedelics I was like really and then

I spent 6 months 9 months learning and I

was like oh my god like I get it but

life longevity for me is like really we

can really we can really extend our

lives and you you've got companies which

are working on that challenge. So tell

me about life longevity. Is it possible?

I well okay let's so so so let's phrase

it correctly like because even I if I

want to sort of some say something very

um pokey I'm like oh we're going to live

forever yeah that's not going to happen

for an accident reason yes you could say

maybe we live forever if we really

upload our brain to our computer but

that not that I think that's completely

impossible but I think then we're not

human anymore that's a different

discussion like so but I would say as

long as we stay fairly human, meaning

having a body,

having sort of the human setup we have.

Yeah. There will always be an end. Let's

start there because the worst case if

you live hundreds of years, you're going

to have an accident somewhere and

somebody blows you up. You have a By the

way, it's going to as a side note, I

think it's going to change once we get

older and older. It's going to change

the way how we look at risk because I

already start avoiding crazy stuff

because I'm like it's not worth it.

Again, risk return. Like I have this one

colleague I always try to convince he's

50 and he drives a motorbike and I'm

like you shouldn't do it. Like the sort

of statistical risk is so big of driving

a motorbike. And his answer is well

because he's still thinking his his life

expectancy is 70. He's like, "Well, but

I'm exchanging 20 years if it happens

against my biggest passion, and this is

a trade-off worth it." And I was like,

"Well, a it's already stupid. But if you

if you It's okay if this is your

opinion, 20 years against the risk of

losing it. But I tell you like it's not

20. You already if you're 50, I'm going

to get you up or we going to get you up

with longevity science to maybe 90 or

100 by the way, in a good way. So would

you exchange 50?" And then suddenly you

see okay then he starts thinking because

so and now think it a little bit further

like if you say hey our natural life

experience someone will be 200 maybe we

stop doing stuff we're doing now because

it could sort of yeah so but you know

back to your question like longevity

never means immortality because again as

long as we stay kind of human because

there's an accident risk uh by the way I

also believe spiritually again that we

don't want to live forever I I think

part of being human again as long as we

stay that and we can talk about that as

well because it's another thing I'm

thinking a lot maybe we don't stay human

in our current form but as long so I

think to part of being human is having

an end

because that makes everything we do so I

just don't want it now like I want to

have more of it but I think the the sort

of the li that there is a time limit on

being human is actually which makes us

thrive yeah and which makes us

everything special

everything special. So I don't think I

want to take that away. I just want to

extend

the joy. Yeah.

Then doesn't it just become relative

again then? So if you live to 150 but

wait so so what I really believe what we

get in the next

maybe like

30 20 to 30. It's come it's I think it's

going to come way quicker than people

think is that we're going to get life

expectancy up

to to a time or to a to a to a to a size

to a magnitude where we want to die. And

I think it's even like this will be a

range and some people might already say

100 I had it all. I had enough

birthdays, enough Christmases and so

some people want to maybe live to 300.

But I think we going to give people that

optionality sooner than we think. And

then I think dying will be like this is

my vision like it's a celebration. I

would someone say look guys I had it

all. I love you love life but I really

think I'm ready for whatever comes.

Maybe comes nothing. I don't know but

like I have an expectation but like yeah

but whatever it is I'm going to finish

it now. Throw a big party. Say goodbye

to everybody and then go out on my own

terms on my own time. I think that's

going to be sooner than we think.

You whispered that I have an

expectation.

Well, I think there is another life.

Like I think it's a continuous uh cycle.

But that's not a spiritual question like

but like I I very much believe we have

an eternal soul. Yeah. I don't even

think there is a number. But first of

all I again I come back which gives me a

lot of thing. I don't believe in the

Christian thing that we have anything to

prove. That's already starts because it

means you're not worthy and you have to

prove yourself worthy. It's like you I

think everybody should be deeply happy

and do exactly what he he or she feels

is the right thing to do. No, by the

way, again, this is I think what people

realize on the on the psychedelics is

like they I always like to say like

which is maybe a good way to describe a

psychedelic trip like since we're young

and again maybe my parents were like

better than other parents in avoiding

that but since we're baby people start

telling us what we should do what we

should not do how we should be how we

should think how we should and I always

say like there is your soul somewhere

like what form of your soul is like but

there is somewhere the level of you you

and again the problem is when we have

this discussion what I want to avoid why

I'm sometimes so blurry is that if you

start using religious terms then some

people might be set off yeah or pushed

away because if I use the word soul or

god then uh a Christian person might

have a different reaction than a Muslim

person than a um than a Hindu person

yeah interestingly a lot of people who

went through psychedelics have sort of

the same description because so so

anyways it's by trying to use as neutral

worlds as possible. So let's call it

soul or inner you or whatever and then

you have all these sort of external

sort of um garbage almost what other

people put on you. Yeah. And and I think

some people literally lose sight

what they really are and want. So and I

actually was always very good. So what I

realized under my trip that sort of so

what happens under a trip sort of all

this garbage is taken away. So you

really look at you

but you and your real naked sort of

form like form I mean like you recognize

yourself all your fears all your wishes

all your whatever. Yeah. And

interestingly it was for me it was still

a great experience but it was not so

different. So which told me

okay I did a good job before

psychedelics to sort of be again true to

myself and I I don't believe in what

what some faith say that that oh you

have to be worthy because you are worthy

yeah and you are great you just should

live the life as sort of it is fit for

you and again this is for everybody it's

different but you need to know it yeah

so so but to so this is my belief and

then so and so so there is no okay I

have it's not like a computer game where

you have to reach a level and do certain

things and then come to the next one. I

just think it's like an endless positive

sort of cycle of experiences. Yeah. So,

and I'm definitely know that somewhere

and I'm going to want to go to to the

next level is the wrong word to the next

experience. Yeah. Um but for now I want

to actually extend this one.

A lot of people don't get to live and

this is what I was thinking is like this

this idea that people will get to a

point in their life where they say you

know what I've had enough. This has been

great. I would you do you genuinely

believe you'll get to a point where

maybe 150 whatever where you think

I think some it's going to happen like I

maybe it's very late meaning I hope but

again I think this is the ultimate

meaning I'm already pissed about the

government interfering in in my stuff in

any way but the biggest interference is

death it's not my I don't choose the

time I don't choose like and we need to

change that so I think the biggest sort

of liberty everybody has will be

choosing his or her own Yes, but you'll

always be curious. The world will always

be changing. There'll always be

go on like a long time.

I I I I I'm trying to understand if I if

I genuinely believe that Christian will

ever get to a point where he's bored

because you're such a curious but it's

great if that is the case. I really

don't know like meaning but I'm just

saying I believe like again I think

there is a moment everybody will come to

that. Maybe it's very very great. Like

I'm working on it. Like

And you don't think death is a n is a

especially that age is like a natural

thing? I hear you talking about it as a

as a bug or as a disease or something.

Well, that that's I would say definitely

aging is a disease. Something is wrong.

So something is I know how the

20-year-old Christian looked and was and

felt. And by the way, my DNA is the same

like it was when I was born, like it was

when I was 20, like it's now, but

something of the same DNA. It's like a

little bit we know how the house it's

the construction plan of the house is

the same. And some

the sort of minions who who translate

the construction plan into the building.

Yeah. Change it and not to the better

from age 20 on like I get gray hair,

whatever. Like so but we know still it

is there like the original source of

information is there our DNA. So we just

need to find out it is super simplified

what changes the translation of our DNA

into mistakes and into what we call

aging. Yeah that's a very simplified

view but it shows you that it's not so

natural. Yeah because it's not that your

DNA is if if it would be natural maybe

your DNA would change. You would say we

can't change that. Yeah. But it's not

like your DNA is the same till you die.

Like so we just need to make sure that

the translation happens like when you

were 20. So by the way I deeply believe

not just that we can slow down and stop

aging, we can reverse it

because again I know how Steven many you

are still obviously at your prime. Yeah,

but I know how Christian in his primes

looked like and yeah, you know what I

mean?

Yeah.

And we can bring it back. So

some some Yeah. going to say some

animals live for a couple of days

though. So I I take like I look at take

an evolutionary perspective on this and

think like you know there's some like

flies that live for like 4 days but it's

enough time.

Maybe we are there at the moment to

escape the evolutionary velocity. Maybe

that's the pinnacle where we sort of

start becoming and I know because I

don't mean it like in a placeic way. I

think we meant to be like gods in our

own way. Yeah. And we start now to go to

the sort of source and construction of

life ourselves. And I think that's an

enormously curious thing. And like Yeah.

Maybe that's what we meant to be. I'm

rather on the positive side. This is not

blasphemy or whatever, but this is like

what God set us up for, so to say. By

the way, every single religion, it's a

very fun. Nobody ever I don't say I

love, by the way, uh and you know, we

can't say today that there is a big

thing coming out about religion and and

science of religion, but I always love

that I'm always was finally drawn to the

mystical side and the religious side.

And aside of what we discussed on let's

what I call spiritual side I was always

always very interested in the history of

religions. Um and interestingly a one

sad actually

happy and sad observation is that in the

very core all religions are the same.

They all preach the same good stuff. Be

nice be nice to others and then once

they become an organization the [ __ ]

starts. Yeah. So and uh and also one

what most religions have just going

through but mo yeah literally most

religions have the big ones is that they

at the very beginning say that we are a

part and a mirror or is the English term

that we are an image of God

and we don't talk about that because now

everybody's like oh if you if you want

to live forever well what a lot of

people again if you want to defy aging

and there are a lot of people oh you

want to play god yeah this is sort of

the

the rebuttals the real and I was like

but maybe that's what we meant to be

because if I go to the Bible it says we

are the image of God so maybe we are

meant to play God because that's what we

are in in a philosophical way so I don't

think it's not e ethically at all I

think it's the ultimate actually

challenge we have to solve yeah um

the other rebuttal I would I thought the

first time I heard about the the

possibility of extending life was that

you know we'd have a really aging

population where we'd all So, it's

interesting you talk about reversing

aging, but we'd all be 170 and slightly

like, you know, slow.

It doesn't make any It doesn't make

medically or sense we won't be 150 and

super old. It doesn't make sense. You

can't extend lifespan that much without

rejuvenation. It comes at this. Thanks,

God. And nobody wants to be like because

by the way, that's what most people fear

though. Why they It's interesting how

many people reject the idea of living

very long. I don't know if living very

long but the one of the very bal reasons

is that they automatically think okay if

Christian would succeed in making us

live till 150 they take okay I know a

90-year-old granny from of mine and

she's not in good shape and now they add

another 60 years and they're like no

that's not what I want but that's exact

but that's not what's going to happen in

the moment we can push life expectancy

way further than 90 it it goes hand

inhand with rejuvenation

And then more people want it.

And what time frame do you expect?

I think we're going to see

step really really tangible steps

forward the next 20 years. Yeah. And

then let's say 20 to 40 later by the way

which is not that far. Yeah. And um and

also um the um this going to change

society meaning everything. And

interestingly, every politician I talk

to thinks like, well, that's far away.

And I was like, no, it's not it's not

that so far away than you think. And

like this going to affect us sooner and

we need to talk about it about about

social systems, about anything. Yeah. Uh

this going to be one of the massive

black but I not a negative way by the

way. I think it's going to be good, but

like I'm an eternal optimist. Like um

but like in a it will be a massive

change for the world.

Let me drink this delicious drink.

What's it called?

I put it like in a commercial in the We

should like leave that in. It's like

hopefully it's better. H

fuel. Yeah.

Yeah.

Human fuel.

Human fuel.

Okay. It's a very good name.

Yeah, it's a very good name.

Who came up with that name?

Julian Han.

Oh yeah.

Um, so switching because in fact the

topic the topics of conversation we've

discussed are super interesting but

personally the things that I find most

fascinating about you are you're just

like ridiculous ridiculous work ethic

and I've talked to some of your friends.

I spoke to Aaron. I spoke to people

around you just to confirm what I

thought and the intensity and the amount

you work I think is just like

staggering. I think I'm really

hardworking. I've seen you in action

around the clock over the weekend. The

fact that we're doing this on a

Saturday. I don't normally record the

podcast and say

it's a hobby. It's like it's like having

fun. It's not like work, but okay. I

know it. Yeah.

My point is about, you know, in culture,

people talk about this term work life

balance. And I think you've kind of

responded to it there.

Very easy. There shouldn't be a work

life balance. There should just be one

continuous hobby. That's my view on it.

People should love what they do in a

way. Obviously, you do different things

and I love more things. So, but like

there I I always said since I'm 16 or

actually 14 since I have my tutoring, if

I would call it work life balance then I

have a shitty life because it's just

work but my work is my life and I love

it and it's integrated and most of my

friends I work with and like even like

friends who didn't this is how I came to

the movie business because just like I

had friends who were actors and were in

a movie business and then I was like

maybe we should work together maybe we

should finance a movie like it's like

Yeah, I don't want to see it as a

separation.

Separation.

Quick one. Starting from the minute the

lockdown is lifted, we're going to start

bringing in some of our subscribers to

watch how this podcast is produced

behind the scenes. Means you get to meet

the guests, meet myself, and see how we

put all of this together. If you want

that to be you, all you've got to do hit

the subscribe button. Let's talk about

more personal things. So, relationships.

How does someone who works as hard as

you find any I'm I'm presuming you value

what relationships can bring you? Well,

complicated topic is work in progress

like welcome to the podcast the diary.

Oh no it's like uh no that that's work

in progress. So that's like uh because

obviously like I'm so much in love with

my work that um that it's always it's

hard I think for another person although

I think I can try to be very uplifting

because I would try say the same what I

told you is like I would tell every

partner like you have to find you can't

expect from me to get give you meaning

you need to give yourself meaning and

then we can be happy together yeah but I

this is unfortunately not how a lot of

people work like so it's very easy that

sort

I have a quote on Instagram, my best

performing quote ever. It says, um, "If

we're dating, I want to be your second

priority. I want your first priority to

be you, your passions, your future. If

we're happy alone, we'll be happier

together."

Yeah, that's so Yeah. And I'm happy

alone, by the way.

Yeah. I

I'm also like an introvert extrovert, so

people think I'm very extrovert, and I

can be and I want to be like can I like

to host parties and dinners and do

things like that, but then I want to be

alone actually a lot. So, do you value

and tell me the value of a relationship

in your view of like a really good

committed relationship? Do you value it?

That's a complicated, right? So, um

because because if I say no, it sounds

brutal and I don't No, no. And I don't

mean it like I I I think it's more the

answer is more complicated. So

I build myself that I that I'm sort of

very like independently. So so I value