when somebody is belittling you or being

rude or being disrespectful what we

typically want to do is throw it right

back because now we got to win instead

of that here's what I would want you to

do one you're going to have 5 to 7

Seconds of

Silence two you're going to ask them to

say it again because a lot of time in

arguments people take it back and three

this is where it gets fun I want you to

say that's where your real power is

because it shows that you're the one in

control and they're the ones that are

not I'm Jefferson fiser I'm a board

certified trial attorney and I help

people resolve conflict resolve problems

and I can change two words and change

your life just by what you decide to say

next because what you say truly has the

power to change everything for example I

teach that you never want to win an

argument when you look to win an

argument you will often lose the

relationship that's your prize congrats

so instead of seeing arguments as

something to win see them as something

to unravel and if you can just ask them

the question what am I missing I promise

you that is the most effective tool that

you can use for difficult conversation

but what about when you're dealing with

someone that you don't like the secret

to dealing with someone you don't like

is to and then could you explain to me

this image here so this is all about how

to say no and how does one learn that

start with then end with really that

right there is very very effective

they've got so many

questions this has always blown my mind

a little bit 53% of you that listen to

the show regularly haven't yet subscribe

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show and you like what we do here and

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we'll continue to do what we do thank

you so much

[Music]

Jefferson Fisher I'm incredibly

intrigued by so many of the things that

you produce content about but also this

phenomenal book so if we if we start

from the beginning who who are you and

what is the mission that you're on I'm

Jefferson Fischer I'm a board certified

trial attorney and I teach people how to

argue less and say more um and I'm on a

mission to help change everything about

someone simply by what they decide to

say next what is a trial attorney is

that a lawyer yeah it's a lawyer

attorney same thing and what do you do

as a trial attorney so I help people

resolve conflict resolve problems so if

you have a a problem with someone you

have a choice do you go and just punch

them in the mouth or do you sue them a

lot of times it's something that

somebody is hurt you that they cannot

give back to you so the only way they do

that in the law is to compensate them

with money and so you you can Su just

about anybody so that's how we resolve

conflict here in a lot in America same

for the UK and litigation so what we do

is we Advocate on behalf of other people

so you're in the courtroom and you're

against another trial attorney

essentially trying to make the case for

your party exactly yes sir but isn't

that doesn't that come down to your

ability to articulate yourself and to

persuade and to convince someone of your

isn't wholeheartedly yeah right yeah

what I say the words that I give um are

give mean the difference between

somebody getting their piece of Mind

back or losing

everything and how does one learn like

how did you learn that where did your

skill come from in that regard because

you're regarded as one of the very best

of what you do so where did you learn so

I am a fifth generation trial attorney

so I grew up and while other kids were

were maybe playing when they got home I

got picked up and taken to my dad's

deposition because um my dad was the

only one who could get me at that time

and so I sat in the corner with a yellow

notepad doodling while he is finishing

the rest of his deposition or I'd go to

watch his uh trial I saw lots of closing

arguments and so I got to see

firsthand courtroom stories I mean any

of these people who've been in trial

education they're all wonderful

storytellers so you get to hear that and

hear how they ask questions before they

say they give an answer and so you get

to really add a first row view of how

litigation happens and how to persuade

and what are the levers in conversation

that that push that forward progress

you've written the book on conversation

argue Less Talk More why does it matter

to the average person listening now

that's just clicked on this conversation

why does it matter to them yeah where

some people would teach you how to play

an

instrument I tell you what chords to

play I give you the sheet music and so

once you know where you are even in your

voice what matters are the actual words

that you say and I can change two

sentences two words and change your life

just by what you decide to say next

because where you've been in your whole

life comes down to your communication I

and how you handle conflict where you

left one relationship because of most

likely some type of communication LED

you to another or where you are in your

job or where you are in a podcast it

it's all comes down to what you've

communicated and where you are in the

conversation at all times do you really

think it's that pivotal to your outcomes

in life oh absolutely so if I if I

became a 10 out of 10 Communicator like

I became the best Communicator in the

world what outcomes in my life what

areas of my life do you think will

radically improve I think you could

almost get to to wherever you wanted to

go if you were a 10 out of 10

Communicator you can how you get hired

for jobs let's say in your career comes

down almost exclusively to how you

communicated right there in that

interview you know people have a

wonderful

resume but they have no ability to

communicate that and without the ability

to say anything and say it at least

effectively then they're not going to

get what they want or you have people

who have been in those relationships

where they've continually been stepped

on they wonderful people inside and if

they were only with the right person or

if they could express how they wanted

and what they needed at that time their

whole world would really change I think

a lot about this because of podcasting

and it's one of the um slightly

unfortunate unfair elements of running a

podcast is sometimes you come across

people who have done the most

extraordinary work ever they could be a

scientist and a lab in Boston in America

or they could be I don't know some

exceptional expert in some Niche field

but the reason why they often don't get

the platform the stage on podcasts or on

TED Talks whatever it might be isn't

because of their sort of Merit it's

purely because of their ability to

communicate the ideas and I think the

more and more we head into this sort of

like content YouTube podcasting world

where that's like the dominant form of

media it's so unb it's such an unfair

Advantage yeah if you can communicate

like you can be 50% as good in terms of

skills or experience but if you can

communicate effectively the unfair

Advantage you will have in your life I

think is just completely

disproportionate I couldn't agree more

you have a huge Head Start in the space

you can if you're somebody who you may

know more than anybody else in that

class but if you don't have the ability

to take up the room if you don't have

the ability to capture somebody's

attention and hold it and communicate

what you need nobody will listen and it

is an unfair Advantage it's a great way

to put it and what's the downside then

so if I'm a terrible communicator if I'm

a one out of 10 Communicator currently a

what does that look like but B what does

what do the outcomes look like in my

life the outcomes are you're going to

start to be negative on yourself you're

going to start to talk to yourself in

very negative ways and and really it's a

hopeless feeling you're going to run

into relationships where you're running

into the same problem you're going to go

into jobs where you start to run into

the same problem where it's almost

cyclical where you're not being able to

say what you need to say that makes a

huge difference when you say look I'm

not going to I'm not going to allow

myself to be treated this way anymore

when you don't even know how to voice

your own boundaries or enforce those

boundaries or things of how you want and

where you want to go in your life what

you're going to find is you're just

going to be unhappier more often and

more unsatisfied and that's a a really

hopeless feeling how many followers have

you gotten online now across all your

channels I think we're close to 12

million it's crazy yeah you're telling

me is there is there an attorney that

has that many followers on Earth no

what is it you're doing for those 12

million people at the very core of it

yeah they come to me and they watch my

videos not to fix or learn from what

happened in the last conversation

they're coming to me because they want

to know how to handle the next

conversation and what I do is I give

them these Snippets the same way I would

in an opening argument or a closing

argument I go with three main points I

try to condense a whole lot of

information into something that has very

little so you take what would be

40 pages and you turn it into two

sentences and you turn that into one

sentence you turn into seven words and

what I do is I give them the sense of

hey I can do that I can do that all I

have to do is switch this word or I can

see the impact of just flipping one

little word or reversing the way I'm

giving that sentence and it creates a

very different outcome every time so

let's get into that then you said you

help them focus on the next conversation

yeah what you mean by that so often we

think of first impression versus the

next conversation so you and I meet the

first time or you meet uh your date or

somebody you uh first job interview and

everything's great everybody's has their

best face on everything's wonderful but

it's typically that next conversation

where something's different you get to

learn if the first impression is the

Lasting Impression if somebody was

really who you thought that they were

you put it in terms of an everyday

argument let's say with a spouse or a

friend you have friction that friction

ignites and then you start to both yell

at each other and then you throw insults

at each other and everything gets louder

and louder and louder eventually

somebody crosses the line and says

something they don't mean and it dies go

forget this I'm out of here gone they

leave then there's a next conversation

and that one sounds a lot different than

the first one sounds a lot quieter a lot

slower people say I what I meant to say

was or yeah I shouldn't have said that

what my intent was then they start to

clarify then they start to apologize

then they reframe oh I can see how you

take it that way no no no what I meant

was what they care about in the next

conversation is always much different

than what they focused on in the first

conversation so the key is how do you

take that next conversation and get it

there to be the first one and where do

where do we have to start to understand

this like I want to be a much better

conversationalist and I want to be a

much more effective communicator I want

to argue less I want to talk more I want

to be heard more this is probably

reflective of most people listening

right now so if if if I was a student of

yours coming in to be trained by you

where is the first place you would start

with me number one yeah you say it with

control okay what you mean by that yeah

so when you're in an argument with

somebody what happens automatically is

your fighter flight starts to take over

even in a little argument even in the

very especially even in the small ones

if I disagree with your opinion your

figh Orly kicks in because your body is

saying hey I'm being undermined Your

Mind Is Telling You N I didn't like that

what he's saying is different from what

I'm saying you know what we're going to

think of some other things it's going to

put that down immediately what I want to

do is say something that is going to

fight in other words I'm going to hurt

you I want to say something that's going

to cut you I want to say something that

is hurtful or we run from it you ever

had somebody been on the phone and go

you know I'm over this in the hang up

yeah or they go I'm out of here you know

what forget this and they go and slam

the door that's their flight that's

their they're leaving it's I feel

threatened in this current moment by

this conflict by this differing view so

I need to get out of it when you decide

to say it with control you make sure

that that doesn't happen and it all

begins with your breath all right that's

the key so what I teach every one of my

clients is let your breath be the first

word that you say so we'll run through

it right now that's cool all right so

let's do it uh an exaggerated one and

what this is called and it takes

advantage of is a physiological sigh so

we're going to do is um two seconds in

through the

nose one more at the top and then

go yeah okay how do you feel after you

do that very relaxed yeah all right cool

so what we're going to do is get a

shortcut to that exact

result this time we're going to do it

same thing but don't make the the

noise one more

stop through the mouth again now instead

of the mouth only through the nose

ready now that was a now we did that

almost a little that was very

intentional so let's do it again but

give it a haircut as if like you don't

even I'm you're not even going to get me

to notice

ready that right there now that is your

go-to when ever somebody is telling you

something that you disagree with that is

your go-to before you even say your

first word because it is going to make

sure that that fight ORF flight never

kicks in it keeps that analytical side

that logical side in it the whole time

instead of going oh but wait they can't

yell at me like that no no that's that's

a dumb idea can you believe that you say

instead of that that's your fight or

flight you never even gave yourself a

chance to breathe when you breathe and

use that what I call a conversational

breath now you it allows you to go huh I

wonder where this is coming from I

wonder why they said it like that now it

allows you to kind of stay detached from

that current moment because you're

injecting your breath into it when you

allow yourself to breathe then it's

going to keep you much calmer and so

anytime I have a client that maybe is

getting a question from an attorney that

would be triggering to them or upsetting

to them it's always the training of use

your breath while they're asking the

question and start getting really

curious as to why they're asking that

what's the point that they're trying to

prove don't look at the surface of the

question look at the intent behind it

where are they trying to take you

whenever I can teach them that it's it's

a very powerful result and to do that I

have to kind of be comfortable with the

fact that there will be a pause between

my response and their question yeah

which is quite uncomfortable for a lot

of people uh you think but the more they

do it the better it becomes in fact I

like it because it tells you that I

actually listened so let's say for

example ask me ask me about my just say

how was your day Jefferson how was your

day Jefferson it was good it was good my

day was great um you know it was it was

a day ask me again how was your day

Jefferson it was good it was a good day

I liked it you see how it one says I

didn't even think about what you asked

me the other says no I actually thought

about the question I considered it and

then I chose my answer and so that you

can do that even when especially for

leaders they go into a very busy work

environment where there are problems

right on the floor they have to address

this right at that current

moment the bad leaders will get very

hectic and rise to that same level of

energy the great leaders will capture

the calm energy they inject that breath

and

go okay what's next have you ever uh my

grandfather for example I can ask him um

one time I was like hey do you know

where your your um your screwdriver is

and he he

goes yeah I mean like you know what I

mean

like but that I mean it just but there's

something about it where these kind of

people in your life that you're looking

and drawn to the calm energy the anchors

in your relationship and your

conversations the people that just to be

near them calms you down just to be

around them you go okay great Stephen's

here I feel better good okay he's here

all right things are going to go all

right because they're looking for the

person who is going to be the lead not

just in the conversation but the

frequency of the room it's a calm energy

that you have to capture when you took

that pause when I asked you how your day

had been two interesting observations I

had the first is whatever you were about

to say next I trusted more because You'

had some time to think and you weren't

just spewing out your like automatic

response so I thought oh gosh what's he

gonna say here and there was this

element of like he's really thinking

he's like he really cares about giving

me the H the honest answer and the

second one is I was just so much more

intrigued right because I could see you

thinking so I thought this is going to

be an interesting response yeah and that

was all in that one second where you

took a breath you can see that a lot in

interviews the person who you go oh this

person is smart is when you ask him a

regular interview question and if they

if they give a breath before they answer

you go oh they actually are are

listening to me the ones that have this

rapid fire of let's say for example and

this uses another technique that we'll

talk talk about is if you were to say

would you bring some value do you think

You' bring value to this company and if

I automatically said oh yeah yeah I mean

I think I think I would I think I'd

bring a lot of value to this company

versus I'm confident I'd bring a lot of

value to this company like you hear how

all of a sudden you go that's that's my

person they actually heard me considered

it and I'm really curious about what

they're going to say next there was

something is there's something in the

contemplation which means that I believe

you checked yeah like it's it's simple

way to describe it in that second

example where you paused and said yeah

I've r a lot of value to this company I

was like he actually checked exactly he

like checked he believes it so I believe

it right and that's way every time I

teach a client and I'm preparing them uh

for their deposition what they call a

Depo when you say client who do you mean

you mean yeah so uh people that hire me

in my Law Firm right uh and now that's

translated to me doing it on my phone

and teaching teaching people in my own

membership is I would say okay let your

breath be the first word and once you do

that you're are going to be the other

person's going to go oh man they really

listened to my question see attorneys we

want to get you we want to get you in a

rapid fire we want you to answer very

quickly even better is when you start to

step over my question answer the

question that you think I'm already

going to ask when you do that that means

you're not listening you're not

listening but when I can get a client to

stop breathe and go yeah you know what

that's not that's not not fair I had a

client Elizabeth who one time when I was

prepping her I would kind of I would act

as the other attorney so I do that often

to help get them and simulate what's

going to happen I would say all right

Miss Carson come on I need you to answer

this question that's true it's fair to

say you didn't see that other car did

you and I kind of start to push him that

gets them really nervous you know oh my

gosh and their nerves get up it's

because they're not breathing when

people start to shake it's not breathing

and so she didn't know what to say and

I'm prepping her

come time after I taught her about her

breath same question somebody said and I

knew this attorney I knew he was going

to ask that question he said it's fair

to say you didn't see that other the car

she took a

breath she goes no that's that's not

fair to say I mean I just left it at

that I mean and he just couldn't really

do anything with it but the bigger thing

was it gave her the confidence I was

saying no I listened I see where you're

going with this I'm not going to go

there and so it it helps you

navigate and Empower you really with the

tools of making sure you're always

saying it with control another part of

saying with control is slowing your

words

down when people talk really fast

without thinking about it it gets us

kind of anxious when somebody is talking

really really fast you're okay I'm

trying to understand you it's harder uh

let's say I mean I like hip hop I like

rap music if you listen to somebody

who's rapping really really fast and you

can't understand a word they're saying

you kind kind of like okay I'm lost in

this song I like the beat that's great

but I can't understand what you're

saying people that slow their words down

shows a lot more Effectiveness when you

communicate so let's illustrate this I

want you to say quickly with some almost

some

exasperation

um I already told you I'm not going to

do that say that real quick I already

told you I'm not gonna do that say it

louder I already told you I'm not gonna

do that perfect I want you to do is slow

it down slow it way down each word you

don't have to have the disdain with it

just slow it down say it

again I already told you I'm not going

to do that say you're even

slower I already told you I am not going

to do that oh man that's awesome yeah so

you see how without the emotion yeah you

sounded even more control yeah somebody

who goes I already told you I'm not

going to do that says I have maybe 5%

control but if I slow it down same thing

and I say I already told you I'm not

going to do that now I sound like I have

100% control this is the person you go

whoa okay they're not moving off their

spot they're not somebody who's I can't

press their buttons and control their

emotions that way what type of person

struggles with

this somebody who um would

be not aware of their emotions not aware

of their triggers somebody who just

let's put it has a lack of awareness of

certain things does one self-esteem and

one's insecurities play a role in this

yeah I mean they play role with anything

my counter to that

is we can overcome it it's it's not your

self-esteem that's talking it's the

words the words do it for you have

people who have a hard time saying what

they want it's the words that they need

to say so when somebody's having a hard

time with self-esteem what I find is all

I need to do is get them to start

beginning their sentences with certain

words and it's always a different

outcome they just don't know how to

begin

it so it's very curious on how like

somebody who rarely does people with

self-esteem issue say I need for example

they typically don't like to say that

because it feels to

forward somebody who has self-esteem

issues will typically begin with so you

know maybe like uh and I was thinking

this and you can you can totally tell me

if I'm wrong but uh that's the kind of

thing that you typically hear they're

just using the wrong words to begin

their sentences you have to find words

that push the progress of the sentence

for example if someone says like all the

time I mean I when you said that like it

it just really upset

meh that doesn't push the sentence

forward if you trade out the word like

for the word

because well I mean that just hurt

because when you said that that that

hurt me I'm pushing the sentence forward

rather than letting it drag and so it's

just these little bitty tweaks that one

or two words make a big big difference

so that was the first point you said

control yeah control say it with control

okay is that a second Point number two

say it with

confidence confidence okay how do I say

something with confidence you have to

first understand what it is and I don't

mean that in like a a woow woo like

setting a lot of people come to me and

go how do I have the confidence to say

this I'm getting up the courage or

confidence to say that it's the wrong

way to look at it confidence is not what

you have before confidence is the

outcome and you get to that by saying

things that are assertive what I teach

is confidence is as assertive does so

when you learn how to use your assertive

voice

the result is feeling confident like if

I were to tell you right now Stephen I

need you to feel sad you have a hard

time feeling sad if I said I need you to

be afraid right now like I don't I mean

what what is there to be afraid of like

you just can't conjure that feeling now

if I for whatever reason just gave you a

elbow to the chest I mean you'd be like

upset right you don't have to you don't

have to wonder what it's like to feel

mad you're going to feel it it's the

same with confidence you can't just

conjure up the feeling of of confidence

you only get it by doing assertive

things and the people that are most

confident I found are the people that

have done the thing already so they have

already said the assertive thing they've

already used their voice because the

more assertive they are the more

confident they're going to feel that's

the way it works so you do it you find

confidence by using your assertive voice

and what is my assertive voice and how

is sort of an assertive voice different

to like disrespecting someone um

I've got this graph I think it's from

taken from your book okay which shows

the sort of Middle Ground of yeah I'll

put it on the screen for anyone that

can't see but respecting others sort of

versus respecting yourself and in the

middle of there you have your assertive

voice right what is my assertive voice

it's a balance it's a balance between

sounding almost passive and sounding

aggressive assertive says I'm willing to

be direct with you even in the face

of it not going well but I'm at least

going to give you my truth or I'm going

to say what I need to say without

sounding rude whenever you work direct

with someone it's also very kind to

someone if I were to tell you and prep

the sentence with Stephen I'm going to

tell you this because I know you can

handle it that's different than me going

hey look this is you know probably gonna

upset you and I don't mean to upset you

but you just let me know like that is a

lot whole lot harder the assertive voice

ISS I'm going to be very direct at the

same time I'm going to say it with a

sense of this is doesn't have to do with

me trying to push my way I'm just

letting you know where I stand you don't

you don't have to always play nice

that's not what I'm saying there are

times when somebody says something

that's that's terrible to you you don't

have to push back you just can't be

pushed over and so when you learn your

assertive

voice that's where you find ways to

speak your truth more easily and more

readily so one of the first words are

the lessons of say it uh and using your

assertive voice is that every word

matters the number one culprit of that

is the word

just we use the word just a lot it's

probably one of my my weaknesses that I

have is using the word just in common

conversation no problem it's nobody

cares but when it comes to having to

push a boundary say something at work be

a little bit more on your toes just has

a way of making you sound hesitant the

most common way we hear that is if

somebody goes may an email or a text hey

just wanted to check in with you hey do

you have five seconds just wanted to to

touch base with you it sounds like

you're hesitant as if like I don't

really want to bother you if you remove

the word just now you're leaning into it

so instead of I just want to check

in I wanted to check in with you that's

a lot more forward a lot more forward

progress rather than just using the word

just but every little word matters

you've had those texts where somebody

gives you like a whole paragraph I don't

I don't know what how to respond to this

what I teach is that the longer your

answer the more questions you're going

to get the longer that conversation's

going to go the longer the argument is

going to go so you have to find ways to

say more with less you have to find ways

to say more with less so does the amount

that I speak have consequence yes there

is this it's this idea of the more words

it takes to tell the truth the more it

sounds like a lie like the more you have

to say to explain something to me the

more I start to assume you don't know

what you're talking about and we have

this way of what they I guess they call

it word vomit where you just you talk a

whole lot people get lost in your

sentences and also when you choose to

speak makes a very big difference like

have you ever been one of those

meetings and there's always there one

person that has to throw in their two

cents they always have to throw out

their idea or be the Devil's Advocate

have something to say at every single

issue that gets brought up most of the

time those are the people that are

honestly the least connected to what's

actually happening or least part of the

conversation because they want you to

know how smart they are or how many

people they know these are the same

people that name drop like every other

sentence uh the person that is like you

know oh I was talking with Stephen the

other day oh you know Stephen right oh

you're a great guy uh you know and they

start to name drop just so you know know

how many people that they know

insecurities are are very loud

confidence on the other hand is very

quiet insecure people have the the need

to say everything so that I sound more

believable so you'll know how much I

know and how smart I am confident people

have the urge to say nothing because

they have nothing nothing to prove like

if you disagree with me on something

that I know to be

true I I wouldn't be nearly as affected

let's say uh like we both have on a

black shirt if if you were like uh

Jefferson this a dumb purple shirt you

have

on okay like I don't need to convince

you what I already know the color of my

shirt is it's like if you know that

about yourself what you have internally

inside you don't have the need the

insecurity to prove it to everybody else

that they're wrong the confidence is

very quiet the people that are typically

the most looked to are the people that

say the least they listen a whole lot

more

do people capitalize on on that so if

you're triggered by me saying that you

have a purple shirt

onh have I got the power now because I

can like play you like a fiddle if

that's you're so easily triggered by

something that's so obviously like

provocation surely I like I have the

power over you now right no I mean I

mean the people that are not emotionally

intelligent the people that don't have

the emotional awareness yeah you can you

can press their buttons and play them

like a fiddle because what they've done

is they've that would be like me giving

you the remote say here here's the

remote to my emotions go ahead play them

press that button oh yeah oh you made me

angry how how dare you instead of

handing out remote controls you get in

the habit of giving out

manuals and so if you want to yell at me

and press my

button and me to say you can't yell at

me like that versus me handing you a

manual and go hey I heard you yell at me

if you don't mind go to page 72 you can

look on paragraph 3 I don't respond to

that volume like you're giving a whole

different mind shift of this is what I

tolerate and this is what I don't

tolerate do you have a lot of um people

Pleasers coming to you you know yeah

yeah yeah people pleasing is very hard

and I mean the thing is you can you can

please people just make sure that you're

one of them and that's the harder part

is I'm always people say I'm always

saying yes to things I don't know how to

say no to things I don't know where to

go with this that's a whole lot harder

using your assertive

voices helps with that in a lot of ways

and it is about trying

to make sure that when you people please

with people you have to find a way to

set a boundary that is going to protect

yourself and that's that's easier said

than done it's it's interesting being um

I started my first business when I was

my first proper business when I was

about 18 years old and when you're 18

years old and you're dealing with people

that are like double your age and you're

different because your skin color is a

little bit different you have no

experience you I reflect I was talking

to the guy was cutting my hair yesterday

because he's a a young black man

starting in business and you were aware

that every conversation you're having to

some degree is a test yeah it's like a

test of how much you value yourself how

much you believe in yourself and how

much you believe in what you're building

and what you're saying like it's an

interesting way to think of life that

like every conversation is actually test

a test of your conviction and I was just

I was talking to my barber about how

I've changed over time and how business

has made me become more direct and more

assertive than I was when I was 18 years

old because like I wouldn't have

survived in some of the rooms that I'm

in with like very eccentric billionaires

who have done this 40 years before me if

if I didn't have that assertive voice if

I wasn't able to look them in the eye

and say with calmness and a slower Pace

what I believe to be true um it's so

interesting like just thinking about how

so much of our life is about developing

this ability to assert what we believe

without the just or the caveats or the

excuse yeah where they also go into

trouble is when people what I see a lot

are people that over apologize I find

that that is big with people Pleasers

where they say I'm sorry in every single

sentence hey so sorry I'm just now

getting back to you sorry I just now

seen this oh I can't come so sorry like

they start to apologize for things that

are not a mistake they apologize for

things that that are not

errors and when you start to over

apologize with every little thing

without you knowing it it's slowly Drip

by drip corroding your sense of

self-esteem your sense of

self-worth it's you your self-worth is

not tied to how little of an

inconvenience you can make yourself by I

was saying so sorry I I don't mean to

bother you I just have a quick question

instead of the over apologies what I

teach is use words of

gratitude so instead of the um so so

sorry I'm late even though you were like

one minute late thank you for waiting on

me or thank you giving let's say it's an

email thank you for giving me the the

time to think on this thank you for

giving me the time to reply thank you

for giving me the patience you know what

the other person is going to think I am

patient oh yes I am you're so welcome I

mean you're you're using words of

gratitude to press that and that's a

whole lot easier than the problem of

people Pleasers and that's just over

apologizing to just about everything or

they undercut their words or they say

like uh I hate to bother you but and

then they have to say what they need to

say in this regard what do the most

successful people in the world the

leaders the prime ministers the

presidents the

CEOs have in common as it relates to the

stuff we're talking about right now so

you know what I'm saying so like are

they are they assertive are they people

pleases like what do they have in common

here what I find that people are people

so it's going to most often it's just

going to come down to to their

personality but overall your most

effective leaders find ways of taking a

lot of ideas and words and saying them

very

concisely the bigger leaders they don't

write long emails yeah they so true they

don't write long texts rich people don't

even say hello in kind regards on

[ __ ] emails they just they literally

they they send emails like text messages

yeah I have I have found in my own life

that the Richer somebody is they could

care less about an email signature

they're not if they even have one and

they might give you two sentences maybe

is very very quick and to the point um

because it's either they really don't

have the time it's not really that it's

they they want to have the appearance of

being very direct and they don't see

that as a an offense they don't see that

as an insult they see that that is the

way that I'm going to operate they don't

write long emails they don't write them

in a way that's going hey uh just want

to put this on your plate and if if I'm

wrong about this you can totally let me

know and I have a question about this

what's number three then so you've given

me two yeah we say say it with say it

with control say it with confidence and

three is say it to connect these are how

do you have how do you have these

difficult conversations with somebody

how do you find ways to say what you

need to say in one of the most difficult

times that gives a lot of people anxiety

if they know they have to have a

difficult conversation even in weeks

ahead especially the day ahead they're

just dreading

it so how do I say something to connect

yeah what you want to do is get really

curious about the other person but not

just so much that there is a framework

that I'm I can even give you so we can

go a step

further there is a frame and I call them

conversational frames when to connect

with somebody it is a fancy word I think

connection can be overused at times just

means I say something that you can

understand and you acknowledge me that's

all we're looking for doesn't mean that

everything's happy doesn't mean it's a

Hallmark car I can connect with you and

still be upset at you my dad would used

to tell me if I came if I disagree with

something he'd say he would go you don't

have to like it you just need to

understand it I mean that that right

there was a great example of allowing me

to connect with him and giving me the

the space to disagree if you were to

begin your sentence with I'm not asking

to change your mind or I don't need to

change your mind it's almost like a

relief before you say the rest of what

you need to say now you're not in that

combative fight or flight of do I have

to defend myself at any time so

connection is this way of setting up

conversations that is going to get you

more of what you want we talked about

the frame here's how to do it and this

is the most effective tool that you can

use for a difficult conversation number

one you're going to begin with telling

them what you want to talk about number

two you tell them and this is the most

important how you want to end the

conversation what you want to walk away

from and three you get their buyin into

that conversational frame this is what

it sounds like let's say this is I need

to come to you and talk about something

serious so first I'm going to say what

we need to talk about Stephen I like to

talk with you about some comments you

made at last Thursday's meeting two I'm

going to tell them how I want to walk

away it sounds like and I want to walk

away from that conversation with the

understanding that's not going to happen

again three I'm going to get their Buy

in I'm going to say that sound good

you're going to say yeah now you know

exactly where we're going you know

exactly what we're going to talk about

you know when that conversation's going

to end and how it's going to end and now

I have your Buy in and it's like almost

an invisible contract when somebody goes

yeah that's good we can talk about that

they don't want to leave it they don't

want to break their word so they they

know that they're going to be stuck in

it and then is there anything I need to

be aware of when I have that difficult

conversation with them so so that I

don't so that I'm successful in getting

to that outcome number one would be set

the goal of knowing where it's going to

end that that is the hardest probably

the biggest downfall of the difficult

conversation people expect them to go

how they had it in their head they want

the conversation happen just like they

had it while they were brushing their

teeth that morning or driving on the way

into work they're like okay I'm going to

say this and they're going to say this

and you expect everything to go just how

you had it in your head but as soon as I

say that one thing you weren't

expecting all of a sudden they disagree

with you and you go wait that's not how

it's supposed to be they were they were

supposed to say this they were supposed

to say I'm right they were supposed to

say they're wrong I mean uh how's this

going to go and then it begins to drown

falter like that because when we go into

those sort of difficult conversations

whether it's with a colleague or our

spouse or whoever it might be much of

the objective I think for some of us is

to is to win the conversation yeah in

whatever definition of winning one might

have is endeavoring to win a

conversation a good idea I teach that

you never want to win an argument and

this is why when you look to win an

argument you will often lose the

relationship like if you set out to

only prove people wrong yeah you might

win the point but you will lose the

person you know being right doesn't keep

you company let's put it that way when I

look at his arguments as only something

to

win all I've won is really the first

step to to apologize typically

when you set out to win it because most

arguments aren't really one it's just

they're one by forfeit somebody goes I

I'm over this or you said it something

that was really hurtful that makes them

say I don't want to uh we're done I

don't want to talk about this an

argument eventually burns out that's

what happens but when you set out to win

you will lose the relationship like if

you you and I are in an argument and I

say something that's really hurtful and

then you leave you hang up the phone

what have I won yeah I mean what I I've

I've won awkward silence now when we

pass each other in the hall I've I've

won that awkward feeling now I have to

pick up the phone and apologize I still

have to find a way to probably work with

you or live with you what have you

proven when is ever

you go on the social media and disparage

somebody's political belief ever changed

their mind ever there's been so many

arguments I've had with like my

girlfriend where I have quote unquote

won and I felt like [ __ ] yeah you will

cuz I cuz she like she might come to me

and say you know what I understand your

point and I'm I'm sorry and there's part

of me that just feels like [ __ ] and I

it's it's because I thought that's the

outcome I was looking for but actually

the outcome I was looking for was

resolution and I actually love this

person so much

that a concession was not like was

actually not I it's not what I wanted I

actually wanted to be happy with them

yeah so I to you know I was think of so

many some some recent examples where my

girlfriend came to me and apologized for

something where we were like disagreeing

about it and I just felt like [ __ ] that

she apologized it's not to explain yeah

yeah yeah well no it's not an uncommon

experience whenever you feel like you

had to always be right and that's what

we really want we want the last word

when you have the last word you are

typically first up to apologize that's

all you've that's all you've bought

yourself that's the that's your prize

congrats and when that happens you find

a way of going that's not really what I

I wanted why did I say that that was

just that was just hubris that was just

me I just had a feeling of being right

and sometimes we have that feeling

of when especially in terms of people

that are in charge of other

people um we expect others to do what we

say when you're in work mode and you say

I need this done people get it done you

set the tone this is how we want to do

it and sometimes we translate that into

our own romantic relationships oh no I

said it needs to be this way so you know

what you to do you need to do it this

way MH and it's a different shift when

you're doing something that's romantic

versus something that is you have to be

captain of the the ship and so whenever

you're in those difficult conversations

you only seem something to win you're

going to have a hard Pro problem what I

teach is instead of seeing arguments as

something to win you see them as

something to unravel meaning what we

want to do is pull my way and then you

pull it your way and it just makes it

worse makes it worse we have to give up

and it's not until that next

conversation that we actually try and

care of what happened I will often tell

someone help me find the nod help me

find the knot and what I'm doing is

encouraging them to say I'm not saying

what's wrong with you I'm not saying can

can you be any more stupid I'm saying

Help me find the nod it's a way of

detaching the issue detaching the

problem saying this is something for us

both to look at help unravel where's the

what am I missing that phrase right

there is very very effective if if you

can just ask them the question what am I

missing they will always tell you CU

most likely it's not something that

you're focused on you're only focused on

what you're saying you're not focused on

what they're hearing big big difference

I have um two glasses on the floor here

yeah

um try not to spill

it nice since I've been a

waiter um so I have these two glasses of

water in front of me what is I know

there's an analogy you have for having a

good effective conversation that can be

demonstrated with these two glasses of

water yeah so let's say that this glass

right here is all of my thoughts and

knowledge and your glass is all of your

thoughts and knowledge and not just what

you think now these are things that

you've known throughout your entire life

so if I were to tell you

something about I want to get your

thoughts maybe a political opinion or

something that's a religious belief I'm

talking like deeply held beliefs that

you grew up with that's what's in that

cup right there when we go into a

conversation with

someone often what we find is especially

if it's like a stranger that what I say

in our first conversation should

convince you automatically that if I

were to take all of my knowledge right

here and I pour it in there should be no

problem but what but what happens when I

start to pour into

here it overflows meaning you have no no

room you have no room for what I want to

share whatsoever it's going to just it's

overflow instead what you have to find

ways to ask questions and get really

curious meaning instead of me pushing my

point instead of saying why do you

believe that beginning your question

with why I start to get really curious

about how did you come to believe that

where did you learn that when did this

happen ways that I get to ask questions

every day like I do as a trial attorney

to find ways of getting to the issue of

what's that deeply held belief where

does it come from because only then

let's go ahead and pour yours into

mine there you go perfect and so it's

only then until you have space that I'm

asking questions when every I ask

questions you start to answer just a

little bit more and then you answer just

a little bit more to where you actually

have space the care at all to what I'm

going to tell you like you can't f

I can't fill a glass that's already full

with new thoughts it's not going to

happen it's not until I can get you to

pour it all out till you'll ever be

receptive and have room for what I want

to share with you so that's the key in

difficult conversations that you have to

find ways to get really curious about

who's the person behind the words

because the person you see isn't the

person you're talking to I might be

talking to Stephen right now but there

are things that happen in your life that

you believe that happen long before I

ever talked to you and we have this huus

about us that we think that just because

I told you you should believe something

right at this moment you're going to

automatically change your mind Minds

don't get changed in one conversation

they happen over a year of a hundred

conversations a thousand conversations

before anybody will ever be receptive to

what you have to say so what's like a

real world example of this idea that you

might not be talking to step you might

be talking to something he's dealing

with yeah so let's put it in terms of

I've had a a client before this is not a

let me rephrase that I had a deposition

before where I was talking to a witness

and he was a huge mountain of a man his

name is Bobby lapre I'm talking Ste he

was huge his hands I mean he just looked

I looked like I was physically deficient

in every way next to this guy and it

didn't matter what I asked him Stephen

he got mad at me I mean I was asking him

basic things like where were you where

were you born okay and where' you

where'd you go next and what happen next

and every time he would just get angri

and angrier and eventually I had to ask

him I said do you need a break and he

said no but I got something to say and I

thought I thought he was about to just

flipped the the table on me it was just

so furious and I asked him well once he

even told me he said you you can cut all

this buddy buddy stuff except he didn't

say stuff and he said you you lost

lawers you attorneys you're the worst

thing to happen in this government

you're the worst thing to happen so you

can go on and ask your stupid questions

but I don't trust you as far as I can

throw

you well instead of taking that bait

which most people wanted to do I asked

him a question I

said what am I missing what's what are

you struggling with right now in your in

your life what's been your biggest

struggle and they have to ask about they

have to answer questions in a deposition

and what I learned was that he big bobul

pray this huge guy had just put his

mother in a nursing home and he was the

only one to take care of her his dad had

died his brother was off and he had been

getting letters for

months about his mom and her home from

lawyers about foreclosing making demands

debt collection all these things that he

just didn't understand and so right then

in that moment I represented everything

he knew about the law and lawyers and

everything else and so the person I saw

was an aggressive mad witness the person

I was talking to was a worried son and

and we got to talk that out and I helped

him and it was a ended ended wonderful

we ended actually hugging but every day

you have these micro moments of the

person you see is not the person you're

talking to the the waitress that looks

like she's being rude and dismissive is

actually worried because she should have

gotten off two hours ago and her mom is

still keeping her kids or you have

somebody who even in the workplace who

seem like they're a little bit short on

their their phone call with

you somebody who looks like they're

aggravated actually their day began

because you know he and his wife are

going through a divorce and they stayed

up all night arguing everybody has a

struggle that you can't see they're

having a conversation in their head that

you were not invited to and so when you

have the patience to try and understand

the person behind the words it's going

to go a whole lot better for you and

they'll feel that when you just want to

accept them for what they look like it's

it's always different like when I if I

were to tell you you were wrong about

something for me to change your mind

like right now I most likely I'm not

saying that Stephen's wrong I'm saying

your parents are wrong I'm saying a

grandparent's wrong something you grew

up your whole life was wrong that camp

you went to Growing Up was all wrong

there's pieces and identities that have

all combined into what you believe now

and we have this horrible habit of

thinking for some reason that if I say

it to you right in this moment it's all

going to change and you're going to just

immediately conform to what I want you

to be being triggered is a Hallmark of

that isn't it like being when we say oh

God they're like easily triggered it's

really you're scratching at an open

wound that might have been there many

years ago I I was reflecting as you were

speaking about a particular friend that

I have who I remember a conversation

with him in the middle of the pandemic

where he like turned to me and said

um it's people that are young and

healthy that are ending up in the

hospital beds and I remember saying to

him I was like I was living at his house

I was like no I don't think that I think

the NHS website says it's people that

are like out of shape and slightly older

that are ending up in hospital beds and

he like was like really really triggered

by that and I remember he's like good

friend of mine so we had a conversation

about it and we dug and dug and dug cuz

we like really good friends like why why

is it that all of us as like boys we

know in like the group chat when we're

bantering all we've got to do is say

like now you're wrong wait one one thing

and it's like Red Mist yeah and we had

like a really open conversation about it

over really over the last like year and

a half and he said

um when I was younger all of the

teachers thought I was stupid and also I

then got bullied on the playground

because people thought I was stupid and

then I found text messages from my

grandmother to my mom where they said I

was stupid

and then I found on my report card they'

basically written me off so 30 years

later when we're having a conversation

just a trivial conversation about the

pandemic when I go no I don't think

that's right and I like pull up the

website and stuff and he gets like sees

the Red Mist as mean him call it now it

all stems back 30 years to this

experience of on the playground so like

you said it could be proving proving

someone wrong but in that case it's

actually like proving the bullies right

it's proving all the people that hurt

him right and it's showing up 30 years

later is this Red Mist the story ends

with him going to a therapist and

speaking about it and he's resolved it

now to the extent to which he can where

now when he feels that feeling he's able

to point it he knows what it is and so

it doesn't make the decision right

knowing your trigger is one of the

biggest ways to defend against that to

know your trigger and it's funny how

just like your friend is telling you so

many things in everybody's life goes

back to the playground MH like we can

remember that thing that that one kid

said like right now you probably

remember it somebody said in high school

came straight to mind and and it's it's

been years years but you remember it and

it lives with you for that long um just

simply what they had said in that moment

that you've created that identity that's

that's a trigger and if you tend to hit

somebody with a trigger it's different

like you can always it's very telling in

the courtroom when somebody takes a

level one conversation and they ratchet

it up to a level 10 it's very dispor

disportionate and it tells you that

there's a conversation happening in

their head that you weren't invited to

it tells you that something else is is

going on and when you have the patience

and the discipline to find that person

rather than just fighting the surface it

you will always have a deeper connection

with that other

person if you're dealing with someone in

your romantic relationship ship at work

whatever that is easily triggered in

that

regard what advice would you give to the

person dealing with that person who is

like continually easily triggered they

see the Red Mist all the time it's

almost impossible to talk to them

because they immediately just flip to 10

yeah they avoid the difficult

conversation you feel now that you can't

even have that conversation with them

because they're immediately going to

Gaslight you or they're just going to go

straight to 10 and they're going to be

flooded right you know that phrase that

I've heard before about like when the

brain gets flooded like they just get

welmed in there yes what do you do with

that kind of person you just curious or

well it's I don't want to just say

curious because I don't I think that

doesn't do it justice one would be you

have to delay what you what they said

from when you respond you have to add a

lot of distance there because if you

continue to engage and go why why can't

you talk about this what's wrong with

you that will only spiral it more what

they're going to hear is something is

wrong with me something I am feeling is

bad when in that moment their body is

fighting their body is going I feel

threatened I feel anxious I got to get

out of here and it's happening in micr

minutes that you there's nothing you're

going to be able to say that's going to

help that trigger aside from you

allowing them the space to have it so

that means you're going to find ways to

approach

conversations with that in mind so one

would be adding distance and not

addressing it in that current

conversation because they're triggered

you don't want to do that you want to

find it in the second conversation so in

the first one you can easily end it with

hey we can drop it not a problem we can

talk about it later because problems

happen Stephen when you try and push

people into having conversations on your

timeline in other words when they're not

ready ever had somebody come up to you

and go hey I need to talk to you right

now and and you're like you want to talk

like that's the last thing you're trying

to control my time this is not what I

want to talk about right now and I'm not

ready for this conversation and that

that causes a big problem when

somebody's trying to push their timeline

on

you um we can talk about ways to to deal

with that but it is that's what happens

and when you do it with somebody going

what's wrong with you let's talk why

can't you talk about this right now

you're just pushing them into a corner

and you're making them harder I mean you

just they become hardened they'll

totally shut off from you then they're

gone then they won't come back for

several days most likely so when you

start to push on them things will go

wrong so that's when somebody's feeling

triggered that second conversation that

next conversation is the I like let's

put a frame on it I like to talk about

what we began talking on on last Monday

and I I'm not trying to solve anything I

just want to understand where you're

coming from so that I can do better can

we do that like right there that's going

to be a much better way to set up and

frame that difficult conversation rather

rather than going hey so um question for

you uh what's up with you because

something's something's off all right

like that's the way that it's gonna

you're gonna trigger them again so many

people are so interested in

understanding how to deal with

disrespectful people yeah like being

disrespected right so if I'm being

disrespected is there a playbook for me

to handle that and why is it that so

many people are so obsessed with like

dealing with

disrespect I find that people

are really attracted

to

comebacks of things and I find that so

funny but it's it's a big part of

communication for an important reason

when somebody is let's say belittling

you or being rude or being disrespectful

there's kind of I teach is a little bit

of a different method for each one and

how you handle it makes a very big

difference what we typically want to do

when somebody's being rude to us or

disrespectful we want to throw it right

back at their face we want to ratchet it

up because now we gota now we got to win

so oh you think I'm stupid how about let

me talk about how you're stupid I mean

so we want to throw it back at the other

person all that does is ratchet it up

and then again it's it becomes to who's

going to apologize first that kind of is

where the game starts to lead um what

you I was curious what you have on the

book now well I was just looking at this

section in your book about dealing with

difficult people yeah that's probably my

favorite um it's your favorite yeah it

was also probably the most popular part

of the book because it outlines a

specific manual on how to handle these

kinds of people and I've developed it

from these people specifically that I've

had in depositions and

cross-examinations in the courtroom that

very compatitive people that you find

ways to you think that the power power

is in having a direct response back of

them that's going to uppercut them like

smart people people like you Stephen

people like all your listeners we have

this desire that when somebody says

something ugly we want to send the

Zinger like we want to have we want to

craft something so poetic that it's not

going to hit them until the two days

they go like oh my God she totally got

me and that's just not going to happen

but the true power is

this kind of Be Like Water mentality

it's instead of direct with them you're

just avoiding it you're pushing it out

of the way to where you're going what

you're saying is not threatening to me

and you do that in several different

ways this would be how I'd say how to

handle people that are belittling you or

giving you disrespect one you're going

to add silence five to seven seconds of

nothing two you're going to ask them to

say it again let's say it's insults

those insults are very direct you're ask

them to repeat

it and three you're going to just let

that sit whatever they say so for

example um let's put it in terms of

somebody who let's give it an

example this would be somebody who's

giving you just a straight insult

insults are different from a disrespect

or something being rude insults are very

direct saying somebody saying like

you're ugly right um how I if I were to

say you're Ugly how would you respond

and you're not by the way un let's just

say so it's so hard because it's like

the context dependent like

you laugh but if it was like it depends

on the context doesn't it yeah I was I

was like oh that's that's the shirt you

went with I guess all right okay like

that's whenever somebody is insult uh

insulting you yeah we have this ability

to get really mad and on it and get

angry but best way to do it is let's say

if you told me you know I I really think

you're an idiot

Jefferson give it a a little bit of

silence and I would repeat I'm an idiot

Jefferson now it's going to put it

Spotlight right back on you for you to

confirm it double down on it or you're

going to apologize a lot of time in

arguments people take it back I'm sorry

I shouldn't have I shouldn't have said

that my head was I got to in front of it

but if they double down on it what all

you need to do is just thank

them thank you in other words thank you

for showing me who you are thank you for

making sure that I'm not going to be

with you uh anymore and this is who you

are in my life very different from let's

say with somebody who is belittling you

uh patronizing you being condescending

to you this is where uh it gets fun this

is one of my favorite ones so let's

let's give this a um a

test oh Stephen I see that uh you lost

some weight that's that's great man good

good for you how would you typically

want to respond to that thank you yeah

now if I had said something that was um

a little bit more ugly if it was like oh

you finally lost some way I was

wondering where you would yeah uh that's

that's good on you would you still say

thank you again no yeah what would you

say that's rude yeah yeah exactly like

oh okay that's that's a little offensive

so here's what I would want you to

do add silence we're going to have five

to 7 Seconds of Silence MH and what that

does is allow them their words to fall

so it's going to one tell you that their

words aren't threatening you're adding

that space in there for two reasons one

to calm you down because you're can to

be using that breath we talked about

second of all allows them to hear their

words back because it's like they walk

their words out onto a plank and now

they're all alone so if you if you had

said something ugly to me and um you

said something like oh well um Jefferson

great to be here I guess I I guess we'll

include you I guess you just came it

it's something that made me feel like I

wasn't

wanting and if I just let that hang for

a little bit and then I asked a question

of intent these are what I call

questions of intent where it says did

you say that to upset me did you say

that to hurt me or did you mean if you

begin your phrase with did you mean did

you mean for that to offend me did you

mean for that to be rude I do this a lot

in uh email correspondence or texts when

somebody sends something to you and you

feel like all of a sudden it's rude but

really if you just text did you mean for

that to sound short like it cures up

almost instantly because it's not

exactly a lot of the time people don't

mean it that way but they're going to

say something to you that is going to

respond

in most likely they're going to say no

they're not going to know how to handle

that they're not going to do with that

if you can respond with um imagine

imagine being like imagine being the

person who would say that or how did you

want me to feel or ask them how did you

feel when you said that how does it make

you feel when you say that you're going

to say something ugly to me and I give

it a big pause and I would

respond how does it make you feel when

you say that to me or I'm surprised you

said that out loud can you just tell

them how it felt can you just say that

was really hurtful yeah you can but

that's that's giving them what they want

you're giving them the dopamine that's

what they wanted they said that so that

it would hurt they're saying that for

because in their mind they wanted you to

have that sense of pain they wanted to

grab that from you they wanted that

sense of control so when you say oh that

hurt often that's exactly what they

wanted in that moment now it's going to

take them some time to realize oh I was

really a jerk about that but in that

moment what they're wanting is that hit

a dope me from you they're wanting that

sense of control so when you ask them a

question so if I were to say that was

that was rude they're you're giving them

what they want that's a direct statement

but if I asked did you say that did you

say that to be rude did you mean for

that to sound rude now they have to

admit that's very different now they

have to admit what their intent was with

that now they have to say yes or no most

what they most of the time what they do

is they kind of fumble over their words

and they go what I I mean what I meant

to say was or no no no no I'm sorry what

what I meant was they don't want to they

don't want to hurt now going to hurt the

reputation now they're going to they put

themselves way too far out on a Ledge

and that's much harder on page 166 of

your book the next conversation you say

when you hear someone say something rude

or insulting understand that they're

wanting something from you that

something is dopamine the Feelgood

hormone that something is

dopamine yeah so when they when somebody

says something

to be ugly what they're wanting is your

emotion they're saying I'm unhappy I'm

only going to be satisfied if I can make

you a little bit unhappy too that's

where I'm going to feel justified in

this I'm only going to feel Justified

when I've caused you pain and when that

happens your best defense against that

is to be like a wet blanket like be a

soggy piece of bread that they can't do

anything with they can't move that they

can't control that and what you're

telling them in that moment is it's not

going to be that fun for you

you that's the best way to handle a

bully bully does something and you ask

them did you say that to hurt me or does

it feel good for you to say that or how

did you want me to respond when you said

that let's say I came in and I go oh I

guess we're you know I guess this is

okay yeah I guess we can talk in here

that's fine right I mean that's kind of

condescending yeah wouldn't you say

and if you had asked me in that moment

um did you mean for that to sound rude

I'd be like oh no oh no goodness either

either I'm calling it out or you'd say

that's that's an odd thing to say out

loud can you say that in all context I'm

thinking if you can you say that to

your like the CEO of the company you're

an intern MH and they say something to

you and that they look at a piece of

work you've made and they go I mean I

guess that's okay yeah do you know what

I mean does context matter here well I I

still think you could say it I mean it

depends how you're going to

yeah yes it just depends uh yeah context

certainly matters on some level but I

mean if if it is a position

of just I think if there's a such a huge

power Dynamic something like that if

you're an intern and you're like look

this guy's just having a bad day I don't

think I need this is not the time for me

to choose to try and have

a uh a way of making him feel

bad or if it's like okay I can I'll

accept that or I can do better with that

there's ways that you can try and

diffuse the the rudeness another that I

really like to to use this would not be

in in that context but that's below my

standard for response those are really

bad arguments so I've had it where

really really bad arguments where you've

used that's below my standard for

response and they really don't know what

to say after that a lot of times when

I'm in depositions and somebody has a

snarky comment towards me I'll ask them

now how how did you want me to respond

to that

they don't know they don't really have

an answer they kind of just go I mean

what I mean what I meant was and they

and they fix it but the signal you're

sending the whole point of it all is to

show them that the next time you choose

to do this it's not going to be fun this

is not what you're getting that's the

whole point of getting them to repeat a

lot of the times if I say you know what

I didn't I didn't catch that can you can

you say that again they can't bear to

say that again it's like conversational

boundaries that's what saying yeah so

one time I had a case between two

sisters and it was about as fun as it

sounds uh two older sisters have

fighting over our company their dad had

passed away I had one sister another

attorney friend of mine had another

sister and my client was let's say very

levelheaded she wanted to preserve the

legacy of their family and the company

the other had very different Life

Choices let's say and the other one

wanted to sell the company well they

eventually came to almost an agreement

on how they were going to

divvy up uh bu buy the sister out we're

at mediation and I knew that we knew

that this other sister was there's no

telling what she's gonna she's GNA say

out of her mouth and I had already

prepared my client for if she insults if

she says anything ugly you're going to

ask her to say that again all right so

sure enough we get at the mediation

table we have a a opening discussion and

the sister the let's say the

the more fiery sister goes on this TI

raade and and says how everything's

against her she hates everything and

then she looks at her sister and says

and I've never I I've never loved you

you're dead to me anyway now that's

sister to sister that's like terrible it

was it was super sad to watch my client

goes I need you to say that again to me

the other sister couldn't do it she

didn't say that again because it it puts

them out on on a Ledge where they they

can't really they're not going to get

the effect it's not nearly as effective

when you say it the second time the

first time was through emotion it was

the amigdala you get it and the second

time was you're forcing them to into the

prefontal cortex to make like a a

logical you got it yeah now now they

have to think does this make sense for

me to say again yeah because the first

it the first effect isn't there it's not

as uh it's not as powerful the first

time when somebody gives you an insult

and you say you know I didn't I didn't

catch all that I need you to say that

again for me can you repeat that most of

the time they won't because they know at

now I look bad because you all you did

about with that question has put the

spotlight right back on them and they

can't they can't take that so they don't

know what to do with

it it's interesting because some of the

things you as you were talking I was

thinking is this like advice for dealing

with really toxic people or is this also

advice just for dealing with like

couples arguing because it sounded the

type of person that would not respond to

that really hurt me yeah sounds like a

bit of a monster right like a narcissist

when when somebody is so if my

girlfriend turned around to me and said

that really hurt me I'd like it would

kill me yeah some people yeah let's put

it in well one it's because you love the

person right and she loves you and so

that's that's a little bit different

when you're dealing with people that

are everyday rude at the workplace or

the office or maybe you are in a

relationship with somebody who's a

narcissist or somebody who is toxic or

you have that bad relationship I think

it's perfectly okay to use these kind of

sentences that are going to put somebody

back I mean like even let's say in my

own relationship okay I certainly use we

both use wife and I the did you mean for

that to sound short I've also said

something and said something I didn't

mean and she's come back using my own

things no that's not okay yeah and she

oh my gosh yeah and and and she'll say

you know did you did you say that to

upset me