Everyone's focused on changing behavior.

Everyone's focused on increasing

willpower to overcome this tendency. And

it's like, why not just change the

tendency? That sounds so simple, but

that's literally what we do in

psychotherapy every day. When we come in

and someone has a narcissistic

personality disorder. This is

personality. This is who they are. And

we can psychotherapize them to be

someone else. for their natural thoughts

to change, for the way that they see the

world to change, for their behaviors to

change on its own. It doesn't require

willpower is necessary when you are

trying to not be narcissistic. It is not

necessary when you are no longer

narcissistic. So, we've done it in

psychotherapy. We know that if your

self-esteem changes, if your sense of

being changes, treatment refractory

depression will change, trauma, PTSD

will change. Welcome to the Huberman Lab

podcast where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Aloc Kenogia, also known as

Dr. K. Dr. K is a psychiatrist and

online mental health educator. He has a

very unique background having trained

and earned his medical degree in the

United States but also having studied as

a monk for seven years. Today we discuss

powerful tools for increasing your

self-standing and mental health and for

rewiring your nervous system.

Specifically, how you can unlearn

unhealthy thought patterns and behaviors

and replace them with ones that truly

serve you and those around you. Much of

today's discussion centers around

differences between eastern and western

concepts of things like the ego and what

makes up our self-concept. That portion

of the conversation will no doubt have

you rethinking why you do what you do in

virtually everything. And he provides a

road map for clearly defining your best

goals and for increasing things like

your energy and drive, not through

hacks, but by tapping into deep

intrinsic motivation. In fact,

throughout today's episode, Dr. K

explains specific practices that you can

use to help rewire your nervous system,

resolve traumas, and come to a much

clearer understanding of how best to

apply your efforts in work, school, and

relationships. We also discuss social

media, dating and relationships,

addiction, and pornography. So, there

are a lot of topics covered. And I have

to say, this is a conversation unlike

any other that I've had on or off the

podcast. Dr. K offers a completely new

perspective on how to resolve common

struggles that we all face and in doing

so he offers a lot of practical tools.

So this should be a very valuable

conversation for anyone wishing to

better understand themselves at the

theoretical and psychological level but

also who wishes to implement specific

tools to improve some or all aspects of

their life. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr.

Aloque Kenogia. Dr. K, welcome.

>> Andrew Huberman, thank you for having

me.

>> So interested in in you and the

knowledge you hold. Um, today we're

going to talk about a number of things.

I mean, Ayurveda and East West medicine,

motivation and dopamine, but I want to

start with the internet.

>> Okay.

>> You had an interesting upbringing. Um,

so very different than mine, not just

because of our age difference. Uh, but

you grew up on the internet like and so

you really have an empathy for people on

the internet, on social media, and now

everyone's on the internet. What was it

that drew you to screens and that

interface with such a a degree of

magnetism?

>> You know, I was like a gifted kid

growing up. And I think that one of the

things that we don't really appreciate

is um how school moves at the pace of

the slowest kid. So, school was

incredibly boring for me. Um and then I

was also uh young. So, I I was a year

ahead. And um so I was like early on

when I was a 5-year-old in in first

grade and I was competing against

seven-year-olds like on the playground

or in in in gym class, I sucked at

sports. So the the one thing that I

really got addicted to was this idea of

like a computer game where like when you

beat level one, like level two is there,

you know, and then if you beat level

two, like level three is there. If you

fail at level three, you get to try

level three again. So it was the only

activity that was like cognitively to my

pacing. Um and and so that really drew

me in and I didn't realize that until

years later. Uh you know, my parents

were big fans of putting us into school

like young and if you can skip grades,

like that's great, right? Cuz life is a

race and and the faster you finish, the

better things are. Um but I I didn't

realize how developmentally challenging

it is to be like a 5-year-old or a

six-year-old in in school with like

seven-year-olds or eight-year-olds. So I

think that's what originally drew me in,

>> if you don't mind me asking. So you were

first generation immigrant parents from

India.

>> Yep.

>> I mean I grew up in the South Bay in

Palo Alto so I'm familiar with intense

academic environments.

>> Increasingly so in the last you know 10

20 years but even when I was there it

was you was intense.

>> Did you feel that as pressure?

>> Absolutely. I mean I I my earliest

memories of of my grandmother telling me

I'm going to make a great doctor one

day. Um, and when I was like 15 years

old, people would ask me like I'd go to

like a party, right, with my parents and

their friends, and people would ask me,

"What do you want to be when you grow

up?" And so I was like, "I'm going to be

a doctor." And everyone was like, "Wow,

impressive." You know? So my 15-year-old

brain was like looking at this this like

amazing idea of what a doctor was. And

both my parents are doctors. My dad was

an amazing doctor. Um I suppose my mom

is too but my dad was one of the seinal

researchers in like graft versus host

disease. It's how he landed his job at

MD Anderson. So he like came from India

and like was an oncologist. Um and so I

also remember like he used to back then

hippo wasn't I I I think there wasn't

even a hippo law. So he would have you

know patients over to our house and

stuff like that. He would throw a

Thanksgiving party every year where like

he would invite all of his patients all

cancer survivors and and things like

that. Um, and so my dad was really like

a mythical figure. Uh, incredibly

charismatic. And so I I was like, "Oh

yeah, I'm going to be that." And so it

became a huge part of my ego. Um, and

then it turns out that ego is not a

great way to motivate. Well, it can be a

great way to motivate yourself. Um, but

then I ran into trouble when I hit

college because I never learned how to

study. So e either I like absorbed

everything and did well on the test. So,

I went straight from like A's to Fs and

then got addicted to video games, failed

out of college.

But your original question was, was I

into computers and and why? And that's

probably has something to do with it.

>> Well, it sounds like you were so into

computers, you eventually went over the

cliff of computers with this addiction.

I want to talk about the addiction, but

I think this is a perfect frame, and

maybe we'll jump back and forth as we

move forward. Um, this is a perfect

frame for

what I have heard and wonder about a

lot, which is, you know, I'm Gen X.

Okay. You're a millennial.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm told, uh, that the generations

right behind Gen X,

>> um,

>> perhaps had more

love and encouragement to feel their

feelings. um notions of what trauma and

addiction were, but maybe that there

wasn't this universally high standards

set for all of them. That's the

narrative that you see in the in the

news right now. Oh, you know, this

coddled generation, etc. You had high

standards set for you. When you look out

on your peers and you look out on the

internet for millennials and younger, do

you think that we can make a general

statement about, oh yeah, you know, all

all this appreciation and understanding

about what addiction and trauma and

feelings are? Um, you know, that just

was foreign to my generation, frankly,

that it helped or hurt to have this this

awareness of of kind of self and what

one needs and and all of that. Do do you

think that it Yeah. Do you think it

helped or or it hurt um development?

>> Well, so Andrew, I'm delighted to be

speaking to a scientist um because I

think it helped and hurt,

>> right? So So this is as you know, things

are multiffactorial. It's rarely one

thing or another thing. So I think a lot

of people picked up ground with

awareness of feelings. As a

psychiatrist, you know, I work with

people who were unaware of the family

dynamics going on in in their life, in

their household, unaware of their

emotions, um, growing up with things

like avoidant, attachment, and having

difficulty forming connections. So, I

think it is always good to be more

aware. I think actually awareness is

probably the single factor that

correlates the most with like success

and happiness.

The challenge, the really subtle thing

is that talking about emotions

isn't the same as actually being aware

of them. So I think what started to

happen is a lot of this dialogue around

trauma, a lot of this dialogue around

feelings has actually been hijacked in

very subtle ways by other parts of our

mind, other parts like for example our

ego. And so it's kind of like this

therapy speak has like and this happens.

So you can look at any population and if

you have someone who's like sociopathic

or if you have someone who's histrionic

or narcissistic and everyone is talking

feelings they will do that too but in a

sociopathic way. Feelings have now

started to be used as a form of

manipulation. Right? So people will use

like I see this all the time speaking of

the internet in its modern incarnation.

We all talk about boundaries but people

have started to use boundaries as a form

of control for other human beings. you

know, my boundary is that you don't text

anyone after 8:00 p.m. My my boundary is

that, you know, every time I call you,

you need to answer the phone. So, it's

really bizarre how like the basic like

psychological

stuff can hijack like our our

psychological patterns can hijack like

we all this mental health speak. Another

really good example of this is so I I

remember I I was uh seeing an assault

victim in the emergency room at at Mass

General Hospital many years ago. And so

the MIT chief of security was campus

security was there. And so I was talking

to them a little bit about, you know,

because there were other students with

with a student who had been assaulted

and and they were kind of talking to me

about safety. And I I remember something

that the MIT chief told me that I I've

never forgotten. We're talking about

safety and he's like, "My job is not to

make people feel safe. My job is to make

people safe. And there's actually a big

difference. And so something interesting

has happened. We have all become more

narcissistic because that's what the

internet does to us. And so now if I am

hurt that is no longer my

responsibility. That is because you did

something wrong. Does that make sense?

>> Like fundamentally if I feel hurt that

is often times tied to you doing

something wrong. So there's this

tendency towards victimization

where you'll see even people who are

like like playing the victim card which

which doesn't mean that we shouldn't be

believing victims. I think that's

exactly what happens is we started to

realize that we're not taking victims

seriously but then all the chameleons in

our society were looking at this pattern

and they were realizing okay the fastest

way for me to get ahead is to claim to

be a victim. So, there are all kinds of

weird permutations

that are happening right now with this

sort of emphasis on feeling. Um, one

more evidence-based example of this is,

you know, we're seeing the prevalence of

mood disorders, anxiety disorders,

addictions, body dysmorphia, basically

everything is getting worse. And so, one

weird thing that started to happen is as

we've talked more about feelings, there

is something called a transdiagnostic

factor, which we can get into. I don't

know if you're familiar with these or

not, but so if you look at like all of

the mental illnesses, there are certain

attributes that are a risk factor for

multiple mental illnesses. So a good

example of transdiagnostic factors are

perfectionism and rumination. So

rumination

doesn't make you depressed, doesn't

necessarily make you anxious. But if you

have a high index of rumination, you are

more likely to have a major depressive

disorder. You're more likely to have an

anxiety disorder. Does that kind of make

sense?

>> If you are perfectionistic, you are more

likely to be depressed. You are more

likely to be anxious. So there's one

interesting transdiagnostic factor which

has gotten way worse, which is something

called distress tolerance. So human

beings capacity

to sit with things and tolerate things

that they do not find comfortable is

starting to tank. And as that starts to

tank, we're seeing an just an explosion

of mental illness.

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The moment you said that we're seeing a

a a reduction in distress tolerance, I

heard in my head voices on the internet

saying, "Oh, so we're just supposed to

push our feelings aside, like we're just

supposed to accept everything that

happens to us. We're supposed to, you

know, and of course I don't actually

believe that, but I can empathize a bit

with that with that notion, right? Like

there's these things are always uh on a

continuum. It's a it's a pushpull,

right? I mean, I was going to raise the

same thing around the standards that

were set for you. Some people who grow

up with very high standards set for them

by parents, teachers, or coaches might

internalize that as, "Oh, that must mean

I'm very capable." In fact, in one of my

favorite books, The Last Lecture by

Randy Posh, he talks about um he was a

computer scientist at Carnegie Melon, he

eventually died. He gave his last

lecture which is this incredible lecture

and he he said the moment that your

parents, coaches and teachers stop

pushing you is the moment you should

worry because they've given up on you.

You if you're pushed people believe in

you that there's a chance you might

actually accomplish something. They

believe in you. But you could also

internalize it as overwhelm.

>> Yeah. Like and so I think this notion of

distress tolerance like what are what

are the standards what are the um

standards for distress tolerance for

performance for being a quote unquote

functional member of society while also

quote unquote honoring one's feelings

about feeling one feelings there's

there's no road map I believe to how to

navigate that what you said there is no

roadmap that happens to be true and it

happens to be wrong so I know it's

confusing so let me explain

So here's the first thing to understand

the way that we collect information.

This is why I love being a clinician. So

like you know you talked about the last

lecture. So this person was saying if

people don't push you that means that

they don't you know care about you.

They're not invested in you. They don't

the moment that you give up on someone

is the moment that you stop pushing

them. Right? Makes perfect sense. And

then there are also people who have been

pushed to the point where they like

crack under pressure. That's actually

way more common. And so so generally

speaking pressure you know just like any

other part of biology if I exert

pressure on some part on some joint on

some part of soft tissue will develop a

callous it'll become tough so this is

where the the the reason there's no road

map is because people aren't the same

right so we all have unique genetics we

all have unique experiences we all have

a unique internal dialogue and so the

whole point of personality and we can

define personality like by the technical

terms which is it is the way that you

interpret information, the way you

perceive the world, your internal

reactions, and the behaviors that you

engage in. So, you can take literally,

you know, two different human beings in

the exact same situation. I've worked

with a couple of survivors of like

genocidal conflicts. And the really

interesting thing about that is not

everybody gets PTSD, which is like

really weird, right? Like if you think

about this is like a genocidal conflict.

So, we have tons of people who all

experience the same thing, but their

reactions to them are really different.

That's what's fun about being a

clinician. What I try to focus on and

what I learned, I looked for a road map.

And what I found is that there's not a

road map. There are thousands of road

maps. And those road maps come down to,

and this is, I think, a huge problem in

the information

based world we live in. So, everyone has

problems, right? And they're looking for

solutions, which is great.

The problem, the biggest mistake that I

see pe uh people make, especially high

performers, is a problem of

misdiagnosis.

So, really good example of this, I had a

a a patient come into my office, worked

in finance, was at a very very

successful firm, came in and was like, I

have really bad anxiety. Like, it's

really starting like I can't eat, like I

can't sleep, my wife is really worried

about me. So, he's like, you know, I've

got really bad anxiety. So, we start

talking about it and he's like, you

know, I'm afraid I'm going to get fired.

And we work together for about

12 months and then he realizes this

environment is not where he's happy. And

the reason he's going to get fired is

because he doesn't fit in and he decides

to quit. So, what's really interesting

is if if we had just solved that, if we

had made his anxiety go away, he would

have perpetuated in an unhealthy system.

And and this is the thing that I think

we forget when we're talking about our

emotions. Like

Andrew, which part of the brain does

anxiety come from?

>> It's a circuit-wide phenomenon.

>> Sure. If we had, how is it taught? If

you had to teach someone who's taking an

undergraduate neuroscience class, and

maybe you wouldn't teach it this way,

but if you had to localize it to

somewhere, where would you localize it

to?

>> To one structure. Everyone would say

amydala. I teach neuro anatomy to

medical students, so or I didn't until

very recently. I'm totally with the

liyic system as a whole, right? But the

amydala and the really interesting thing

is like

>> crocodiles have amydalas,

>> right? So, so we sometimes forget that

these negative emotions are actually

really important for us. They're really

healthy for us. One other really

interesting example of this is, you

know, I work with a lot of like gamers

on the internet. So sometimes they'll

try to engage in mating behaviors

and and they'll creep people out. And

one of the really interesting things

that I I realized is embarrassment

is the best way to not creep someone

out. So if I violate one of your

boundaries and then I express

embarrassment, that signals to you that

I realize I did something wrong. So if I

violate one of your boundaries and then

I express embarrassment, that's a really

important empathic signal. And now we

have all of this like content on the

internet telling people to be

relentlessly confident. And when they

become relentlessly confident, they no

longer express embarrassment.

Embarrassment is a really important

signal to send. In the example you gave,

it's very clear that somebody violated

somebody's boundary. They felt

embarrassment. Showing that

embarrassment shows that they have some

sort of empathic attunement or awareness

that makes them perhaps a little less

creepy and a little bit safer as opposed

to if they just kept, you know, going

forward. Right. However, if it was a bit

vague, like let's say that they did

something um of flirt of flirtation and

it wasn't really clear what it was and

the other person said, "Hey, like that

doesn't feel good to me." And then they

acted very embarrassed and the person

who said it didn't feel good to them

would quite understandably think, "Oh,

it must have been really bad." Right?

Often times the dynamics are subtle

where people don't really know how they

should feel about something. at the

extremes we know.

>> So I'm going to reverse Russian doll us

because I I was all over the place. So

you asked about a road map.

>> Then I gave the example of anxiety. Then

I gave the example of of embarrassment

as another uh emotion that's helpful.

And you're now you're asking a question.

So we're going to do it in reverse

order. But I want to get back to that

road map because I think it's a

beautiful question.

>> I wrote it down. We haven't forgotten.

>> Great. Let's talk about the ambiguous

interactions. This is fascinating. So, I

I saw a really cool study where when two

people are flirting and that's taped and

a neutral observer is watching it, they

accurately detect flirting only about

30% of the time. Different studies show

24 to 42%. You're saying ambiguity is a

problem. No, ambiguity is exactly what's

supposed to happen. So, if you think

about what flirting is, flirting is

a way to preserve plausible deniability.

It's a way to make you feel safe, right?

So if I if I am really Andrew, I'm

really interested in your body, bro. But

if I say that it it's it's, you know,

unless you are matching that energy,

it's not going to be safe. It's not

going to be good. It'll ruin our

relationship. So flirting by nature is

supposed to be missed. So this is

another thing where you're saying like,

yes, there's ambiguity. It could be

interpreted this way and it could be

interpreted this way. That's not bad.

That's good. That's that's how human

beings actually interact. Um, so

Winnott, you know, described this

beautifully because flirting is a a form

of play. That's literally what it is.

And play is about a potential space.

>> When I'm playing like dolls with my

daughter, it's not defined. And the

whole point is for it to be not defined.

>> So in that absence of definition, which

now everyone is sort of like we're

seeing a social skills atrophy. So, you

know, the the parts of our brain that

interpret tone, body language, things

like that, like people are are becoming

like, you know, we're seeing a rise of

like ADHD and everyone also feel

subjectively like they're autistic. It's

because they're they're losing some

degree of social skills because we text

back and forth. And our brains don't our

our occipital cortex is not interpreting

visual information of people's facial

expressions. So, that part of our brain

like literally kind of shuts off. So,

people are having a lot of difficulty

with ambiguity. You know people are

saying like oh this person is sending

mixed signals like that's the point in a

relationship you are going to have mixed

signals in a friendship you will have

mixed signals we all have ambivalence

within us I I want to eat a healthy lean

protein during lunch and I also want to

eat a fried protein during lunch right

so ambiguity is actually not something

to be avoided the really interesting

thing another uh transdiagnostic factor

really important one the intolerance of

uncertainty

So, human beings who are capable of

tolerating uncertainty,

better mental health outcomes, um, more

resilient, improved quality of life.

Right? So, everyone needs defined

answers. So, I'll pause there for a

moment just to address your flirtation

example, but you're spot on. We can tell

what the signals are at either end. The

point of human interaction is that way

we can adapt to each other.

You know, if I put my arm around you,

then how do you respond to that? Do you

get up and go to the bathroom or do you

lean in? So, these are how human like

these are how how human interactions

actually happen. There's a lot of back

and forth.

>> Fascinating. A lot of younger guys talk

to me about their challenges in the

dating scene.

>> And one of the things that they seem

very challenged with is the fact that

they feel like whatever happens on a

date is shared on the internet. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Um, and this is of course not related

to, you know, assault or or them acting

highly inappropriate or, you know, this

is really like they're reported as a

good or bad kisser. They're reported as

a um they pay or they don't pay. And and

you know, and so I think that the room

to explore ambiguity

>> um to them, this is what I hear, feels

very dangerous. It feels like a slippery

slope. Yeah. Where they have to perform

perfectly on every measure and I'm sure

women feel the same way, right? I just

hear from more more men.

>> Yeah. It's very tricky. So, I I think

what we're seeing in in the dating world

and and I guess we're this is what we're

talking about. Maybe it's top of mind

for me because I just uh did a bunch of

content on it. But um so what's

interesting in the dating world is that

now we're sort of adding the internet to

the equation, right? Which you sort of

talked about. So let's just understand a

couple of things about the internet. So

the first is what the internet in my

opinion this is sort of like a

clinician's perspective having read

about 200 papers on various aspects of

how the internet affects our brains and

our psychology.

Um first thing to understand is that the

internet selects for emotional

activation. It's not even dopamine in my

opinion. So if you look at like internet

right so it's not just fun in games

actually the most engaging content is

emotionally engaging

>> arousal

>> arousal absolutely

>> adrenaline

>> and then the other interesting thing is

that in order to maintain arousal you

need a dichotomy of emotions

>> so I need to scare you and then I need

to make you angry and then I need to

show you a cat video and then I need to

scare you again and then I need to tell

you how AI is going to steal their job

and then I want to show you this

birthday party where this baby did the

cutest thing. So this is literally how

it they maintain engagement. And so

what's really interesting about this is

as our emot as our lyic system is like

hyperactive over and over and over again

that's one of the biggest cognitive

drains that we have. So like I think the

top three cognitive the things that

drain our willpower the most suppressing

emotion repressing emotion even just

feeling emotion is like very exhausting.

The internet is selecting for the most

emotionally activating things. So who

which tweets get engaged with the ones

that are the most polarizing?

So then what happens is is people are

dating and now you've got a problem

because and here's the real tragedy is

people will have a perception

that if I don't say the right thing this

will get posted online that is not what

happens most of the time right but this

is where we as human beings have certain

cognitive biases where the extreme

example like we get trained in this in

medical school is you know once you miss

a cancer diagnosis once it doesn't mean

that every patient after that has

cancer. But that's what the brain is

designed to do. Our brain is designed

for survival. Which means that if we get

food poisoning from a restaurant even

once, our brain doesn't look at that

probabilistically. It takes the worst

examples

and that's what we have to base our

behavior on, right? Like if I'm at work

and I want to if I'm attracted to a

co-orker, even though there's a 90%

chance that if I express some romantic

interest in them, I'm going to be fine.

I can't make a strategy based on that. I

have to ba base my strategy on the worst

possible outcome. That's what we're

seeing in data.

>> You said that suppressing emotion is

cognitively draining. Did I also

understand correctly that being in

constant arousal through different

emotions is also cognitively draining.

>> I don't know if I would use the word

cognitive there, but it's absolutely

draining. Right? So periods of extended

arousal and this is where like I'm when

I mean cognitive draining I'm referring

to a you know a paper that's looking at

the anterior singulate cortex. So I and

that's where when the anterior singulate

cortex and your frontal loes are

suppressing your lyic system that's very

draining

>> but I think high levels of arousal right

through the reticular activating

formation and things like that just

being on emotionally hyperactivation of

your lyic system is absolutely

exhausting is the word that I would use.

You mentioned distress tolerance is a is

a valuable skill to have. Uh it feels

appropriate to say okay um distress

tolerance I totally agree great to be

able to you know tolerate distress to a

point but that sounds like it's very

cognitively and generally draining. So,

how would you encourage someone to

develop healthy levels of distress

tolerance? But if that involves, you

know, constant suppression of of an

impulse to to shout, to react, that

sounds like it could get very unhealthy.

So, I realize we're taking we're sort of

staying on this tangent, but I feel like

what defines healthy distress tolerance

if pushing back an emotional reaction or

pushing down an emotional reaction is

not good for us. So distress tolerance

doesn't only include emotional

suppression,

right? So what's really interesting

about distress tolerance is a key uh

feature of distress tolerance is not

even suppressing is the opposite is

accepting your emotions. It's actually

moving in the opposite direction.

>> Feeling your feelings.

>> Feeling your feelings, right?

Recognizing that you feel your feelings.

>> What if um somebody feels extremely

angry and they want to feel their

feelings? What is a healthy way for them

to do that?

>> Three things. Okay. So, if you want to

learn how to

>> control your emotions, you want to be

tranquil in the face of your emotions is

what I would say. Three things you can

do. The first thing is

>> um putting words to your emotion.

>> So, the moment that so right now, if you

I don't know if this kind of makes

sense. The more angry you are, right?

The more your amygdala is like

hyperactive, it is drowning out every

other part of your brain.

So the first thing that you have to do

is put words to it. And when you put

words to it, you can't put words to ah

there's no word there. So the moment

that you try to put words to it, it has

to calm down

>> in order for your linguistic centers

broke his area and all these in order

for them to like articulate it, you have

to understand it. So Freud understood

this like over a hundred years ago. And

there's something powerful about

processing emotions by putting them into

words. in order to put words to it, we

have to tone it down some. So that's the

first thing. The problem is that people

oftentimes think that that is

sufficient, right? So people will say,

"Journal, go see a therapist and talk

about your feelings." Man, the number of

times that I've had like I had this

patient who came in, if I can tell a

story,

>> please,

>> you know, and so like I was a third-year

resident. I'd done maybe like 100 hours,

200 hours of psychotherapy. So I I had a

guy come in, he'd been in the clinic for

eight years, had depression, was a dude

in his 40s. He came in and he would tell

me about why he was sad every day. Like

every week he'd come in, he's like, "I

got I got written up at work. People are

complaining because I snapped at them.

You know, one of the patients is

complaining because I didn't give them

benzo." And so he'd come in every every

week. He'd talk about why he was

depressed. I'd be like, "Why are you

depressed, bro?" And he'd like tell me

some story about something bad that

happened in his life. And then we did

this for six months. And like I didn't

know cuz I I'm like learning

psychotherapy, right? So, I'm like, I'm

supposed to be supportive and I'm

supposed to be like, okay, like that

must be hard for you. How does that make

you feel? That must be so hard for you.

How does that make you feel? That must

be so hard for you. We do this dance for

like 6 months. Then one day he comes in

and I'm kind of getting frustrated. I'm

like, hey, is this helping? And he's

like, what do you mean is it helping?

I'm like, is it helping? Do you feel any

better than when you came in six months

ago? And he's like, I thought this is

what we're supposed to do. I'm just

supposed to come in every week. I tell

you about how I'm sad and then you tell

me it must be like, isn't that what

psychotherapy is? And it was a huge

light bulb moment for me because talking

about your feelings, especially for men,

is not enough much of the time.

Fascinating neuroscience and

endocrinology behind that. Putting words

to it is just step one. Second thing,

this is a really important skill,

cultivating additional emotions. So if

you look at people who are resilient, if

you tunnel down into the internal

dialogue of people who are resilient,

you'll notice that they do something

some some interesting things. So my

patients who are very severely ill,

right? And literally what I try to do

with them over the course of weeks is

this thing happened

and I feel overwhelming shame the moment

that you start cultivating additional

emotions. So I I've been dumped by my

boyfriend or my girlfriend. I'm really

really depressed. I'm going to be alone

for the rest of my life. They start to

catastrophize. They have a lot of

negative emotion. And it's really easy

in that moment to forget that, okay, I

had three years of wonderful experiences

with this person before things went

downhill. It's really easy to forget all

of the positives. It's really easy to

realize that three years of experience

followed by, let's say, one year of a

toxic relationship is going to actually

protect you from the next toxic

relationship. So cultivating additional

emotions is a huge fundamental part of

EQ and is you don't just have to

tolerate it or suppress it. These are

the additional things that you can do.

And this is really important. It's not

just cultivating positive emotions when

you're feeling negative emotions. It's

the other way around as well. I've seen

more relationships ruined by falling in

love than anything else. And you just

fall in love with the wrong person.

You're in a relationship and you fall in

love with somebody else. So many people

I've worked with, you know, I have this

great business idea and I get so excited

about it and like I'm going to start

this AI company. That's the time that

you actually want to cultivate negative

emotion. Cultivate a little bit of

anxiety. What could go wrong? Make sure

you ask yourself that question. Like

literally in addiction psychiatry, we we

have a cool technique that we use with

people where it doesn't really work so

much anymore, but we tell people to play

the tape through to the end. you're

really excited right now and you want to

do this thing, but play the tape through

the end. What are all of the negative

things that could happen? So that

cognitive flexibility, that emotional

flexibility is really important. We have

to understand what emotions are. So a

lot of times, you know, this is going

around on the internet where like feel

your feelings, right? Like I'm just

going to authentically I'm going to be

authentic with my feelings today, which

means that you're an Andrew,

and I'm just this is my truth, right?

So, we've started like speaking our

truths as excuses to being

Like, that's what's happening on the

internet. It's what's happening in in

real relationships because people are

watching social media and they're like,

I should speak my truth. Right? So, the

other thing that's really important is

to understand that an emotion is not a

behavior. An emotion is literally from

an evolutionary perspective and you may

know this better than I do is

information and is motivation. That's

what emotions are for. So when you feel

fear when you're walking outside

going to the walking to the outhouse in

the middle of the night and you feel

fear that is all this all this sensory

input is being processed in parts of

your brain that you have no conscious

awareness of. The first thing that

happens is that you feel emotion before

you have any logical idea of what are

you even scared of. That is your brain

telling you something. The other thing

is it's motivation, right? I feel like

running away. And this is where

unfortunately our brain evolved for a

world that we don't live in anymore. So,

you know, back when I used to feel fear

because I was being hunted by a tiger.

The natural impulses that our fear

encourage us to do don't work when

you've got to pay rent at the end of the

month or you've got to pay your mortgage

or you've got to do well on your

performance review. So oftent times what

we do is we think that feeling

authentically means letting our emotion

run the show. We don't want to do that.

We want to ask ourselves what is this

emotion telling me? Why do I feel fear?

What am I, you know, what am I afraid

of? And I don't even think what am I

afraid of is the right question. It's

way too like self-help. Mhm.

>> It's it's way too psychotherapy for me.

It's what is my fear telling me?

>> What is the information and motivation

that it's signaling?

>> Yeah. And then what is it what is it

telling me to do?

>> Like your client who was feeling very

anxious all the time. Um by exploring

that emotion eventually it sounds like

came to the understanding that it wasn't

the job for him.

>> Perfect. Right. That this is not the and

and so he's trying so hard. Right. So

the anxiety is like clinging on to his

job, but actually once you understand

the emotion, it's actually walking away.

>> And so once you have mastery over your

emotions in this way, and I think

mastery is maybe a better word, it makes

life like so much better, right? That

that's when we talk about distress

tolerance, like that's what I'm talking

about. It's not just suppression.

>> Wonderful. I I so appreciate your

answer. The thoroughess of it, the

clarity of it. Distress tolerance is

putting words to emotion, adding

additional language to it and exploring

the the reverse context, the the as well

the negative aspects of positive

emotions, the positive aspects. So,

sounds like it's broadening the the the

time domain like thinking about this in

going forward. What does this represent

in the past, present, and and future?

And then really thinking about what the

emotion is signaling. What a beautiful

description of distress tolerance

because it's also um operational. people

can put this to to work. Thank you.

That's fantastic.

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to get started today. The road map. If

we could go back to the road map. Yeah.

>> If you could spell out for for us what

do you think of as the road map to to

navigate this very complex landscape

that we exist in now.

>> Okay.

>> And this could be relationship with this

person. It could be um be a doctor, go

to an Ivy League school versus be an

artist or you know um any number of

different examples where we have to make

the distinction of what's wished for us

and expected of us versus what is true

to us on the inside.

>> That's that seems to be where to me

where the where the friction of life

exists.

>> Absolutely.

>> That to me is the most interesting

question in life frankly. You know,

>> let me just make sure I understand your

question.

The friction and joy of life is the rest

of the world wants me to do all of these

things. And sometimes this

doesn't want to do those things.

Sometimes it does want to do those

things. When do I listen to this? And

when do I listen to everything that?

>> Yes.

>> Right. Okay. Beautiful question. So

this is where I'm going to lean into the

eastern stuff for a second. So I spent

seven years studying to become a monk.

And uh then I I went to medical school

and I became a psychiatrist. And the

really interesting I had a really weird

experience of training in psychiatry

because everyone was teaching me how the

mind works. Okay? And this is like good

teachers at like the Harvard Medical

School and they're like here's how the

mind works and this is what the

subconscious is and like there's

cognitive behavioral therapy. Right? So

like Aaron back taught us that there's

like thoughts, emotions and behaviors

and all these these things connect. And

the really fascinating thing my most

instinctive response when people would

tell me how it is is no it's not.

So in the east they have a completely

different conception of mind. And here's

the big problem with the western

conception of mind. You're a scientist

right? How do you learn about something,

Andrew?

>> You have a question.

>> Okay, good.

>> You pose a hypothesis.

>> Excellent.

>> You design an experiment. Good.

>> Where you isolate variables. Okay.

>> And you either um refute or you in some

sense support your hypothesis. Okay.

>> And then you design another experiment,

>> ask another question. You just you just

keep going and then you get tenure and

then you start a podcast. Beautiful,

right? Just kidding.

>> So, so let me ask you this. How do you

study the mind?

>> Here's what's really interesting, right?

So, so here's what's really fascinating.

Like, do we have any scientific evidence

of the existence of thought?

>> We could define thoughts as some pattern

of network activity.

>> What I mean is like if we lit literally

look at it, we have no instrument that

can detect a thought.

>> That's right.

>> Right. So, we have we have no proof. We

cannot measure a thought. like it is

like literally impossible. We can

measure blood flow to the brain. We can

measure electrical activity in the

brain. We can induce thoughts,

>> right? We can we can do that. But we

have we have no idea that a thought

exists. So like psychiatry is weird

because every other part of medicine and

science we can measure what we are

studying.

>> In psychiatry we can't do that. So along

came Freud and he made a fascinating

discovery which is when a human being

speaks

we understand something about what's in

their mind and the whole reason we get

trained and the reason that we we can

measure mental we can me measure your

mind right so we have validated

scientific instruments using things like

factor analysis and stuff like that

where we can use the Beck depression

inventory which will tell you how

depressed you are we have good ways to

measure stuff so there's a lot of

science in psychiatry. The basic problem

though is that we have a fundamental

problem. We cannot we have no insight

into what is in someone's we have

insight into someone's mind but we can't

detect the mind.

>> That is a fundamental problem with

science. Okay,

>> here's the cool thing. We have no

scientific measurement of thought.

But we as human beings have measurement

of thoughts. Can I ever know what you

are thinking using any instrument of

science? You're the psychiatrist, so I'm

tempted to say yes, but no.

>> No. Right. Can you know what you're

thinking?

>> I would like to think so, but I'm

guessing I'm guessing I mean I I can ask

myself what's going on in there, but I

don't necessar necessarily have the

ability to put language to it in a way

that captures what

>> you are capable of observing your

thoughts.

>> You are capable of I'm not capable of

observing your thoughts, but you can

whether you detect all of them, whether

they're right or wrong, that's question

is separate. just the fundamental idea

of like you can measure an axon you can

you can detect your thought right

>> we all live in this way yeah right so

that we can get to the edge cases later

>> so here's the cool thing so when I went

to India and I I studied for seven years

the difference between the psychology

that was developed from the

contemplative traditions is it's its

foundation is internal observation

so yogis are cap we're all it's not like

some special ability but they based

their theory of mind on what they could

observe. Whereas in the west that is not

something we have access to. So their

theory of mind is very different. So

when I was training to become a

psychiatrist, people were like this is

how the mind works and I'm like no

that's not true. Right? There is a

different way. So here's one example

getting to the road map. So the biggest

thing that I think is different is the

ego. So in the east they have the

concept of a part of our mind that is

the ego.

And in the west we use the word ego.

Freud defined it in some way. We all

have this intuitive sense of identity.

But in the same way that logic and

emotions interact in a very mechanistic

and defined way in the west our model

does not include this piece and the road

map that you're talking about has to do

with that piece. So if the rest of the

world because things get complicated,

right? That's why it's so exciting for

you and so challenging. Things get

complicated. Everyone wants you to be

something and then we make a big mistake

because we do this thing called

internalize.

And the moment that you internalize now,

is it coming from the outside or is it

coming from you? Is this something that

I've been conditioned to want or is it

something that I truly want? Which then

begs the question, what the hell is

truly want?

Is there a difference between want from

over here and want from over there? And

the yogis will say that the answer is

yes. So once you understand the ego and

the ego functions in a couple of ways.

If I ask you Andrew who are you what

would you say

>> Andrew?

>> Okay. Is that it?

>> I mean I have a list of roles that I

occupy in life.

>> Very good.

>> Are those you?

>> They're facets of me.

>> Okay. Right. So anything that you can

use to describe tenure professor at

Stanford.

>> Right. I wouldn't put that first, but

that happens to be true. I'm a brother.

>> Brother,

>> I'm a boyfriend.

>> Once a skater, always a skater. But yes,

I'm a public educator.

>> Great.

>> I'm a son, a friend.

>> All of that stuff is ego.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. So, ego is anything when you say I

am dot dot dot, anything that defines

you after that is actually part of your

ego.

>> And and the interesting thing is that

it's not that the ego is bad. This is a

common misconception, but like ego, we

all need ego to function in in the

world. Um, if you are okay not

functioning in the world and you're

moving towards enlightenment, then you

no longer need ego. But generally

speaking, we need ego. So, you know, if

you're looking for a road map of what

you truly want in life and what is

healthy for you and not healthy for you,

when you say you're Andrew, right,

there's a lot of other people who can

claim to be Andrew, but they're not you.

You're talking about a a fundamental

internal experience of the self. And you

were Andrew before you were a a

boyfriend. You were Andrew. You've

always been a son, but you actually you

were Andrew before you even knew you

were a son. Right.

>> Right. You were still Andrew. So there's

a fundamental like bundle of experience.

That's really what you are. And I think

that the best road map if you're trying

to figure out what to do in life, try to

peel away the layers of your ego. And I

know that's getting complicated, but if

we sort of think about like, you know,

what is it that like practically gets us

jammed up in life is when I try to be

something.

>> I know this is going to sound weird. I'm

sure you have ambition, but I don't

think you are where you are because of

your ambition. I think you are where you

are because you listen to this internal

voice, not try to live up to external

expectations.

>> 100%. I I can truly say that every

choice I've made to get into, you know,

fish and animals when I was a kid,

obsessed with birds and fish and then

skateboarding and then biology and

science and where I'm at now has has

been some sense of an internal passion

and something pulling me from the

outside and it's just a I just go.

>> Right. Those choices were always made

because I knew in my heart's heart there

was no other option in in the positive

sense.

>> Yes,

>> I'm going like I'm pulled toward it and

I'm driven and I'm driven toward it.

>> Right. So So you are listening to a part

of you,

>> right? So it is an internal thing that

the world then meets you halfway. So it

it makes it possible where there's a

whole thing about that.

>> For me it's a physical energy.

>> Fine. If I feel physical energy coming

up in my body and I want to move towards

something and for some reason I feel it

more in my left arm than anywhere else.

This has always been true. I I'll have a

thought and I know and that's when I go,

"Oh my goodness, I'm going to do this

thing. I know I'm going to do it and

there's no backing out because it it has

to happen. That's that's how it feels."

>> Yeah. Right. So, so, so any desire that

you have that comes from the sense

organs is probably not this thing. So,

the the sense organs can trigger

something within you. But if we look at

like, you know, social media, half the

problem is that the hardest problem I

have as a psychiatrist is convincing

people that they don't really want the

things that they say they want. It's

like so crazy, right? Like we're being

programmed. We're being conditioned.

And I realized this the other day when

like I was like, man, like I wish I

talked to my agent about like like doing

more talks. Like I want to go someplace

and like get like paid speaking

engagements. And I realized I I actually

hate that. I I don't like that. It's

just what I thought people like us do.

And I've done a couple of them which

have been really fantastic and I really

enjoy that. But I like sitting with

people, right? So we're we're trained.

And just think about it. Like anyone

who's listening to this, think about all

the that you've seen that you think

you want, but you don't really want. You

just like look at other people and

you're like, "Yeah, I want that thing."

It can be a particular kind of

relationship. It can be a particular

job. Like, you know, we all want like

all this random stuff. It's all coming

from our sense organs, right? This is

why advertising is a thing. So, stepping

away from sense organs is really

important for that road map. Second

thing is anything that you want that is

a comparison

that is born of the ego. The ego is what

defines you. Right? So we can say

tenur professor we can say associate

part-time instructor. And so any

comparison requires a definition. Does

that kind of make sense? Yeah.

>> Like so all of the gold medalist, silver

medalist, bronze medalist, that's a

comparative thing. If I say I'm a silver

medalist, then my desire for the gold

medal can come out of the ego. Does that

kind of make sense?

>> Yes, it makes. The reason I'm I'm sort

of uh with my hand below my lip is

because I I I'm so struck by this

because I've had this feeling for a

while now that most of the danger in

life um comes from the need the feeling

that we need to prove something to

others or to ourselves.

>> Yep. And yet I know it's healthy to

prove things to myself. Like it's felt

good to be able to accomplish certain

things. You know, I did that. Like I

could do other difficult things. But the

origin of of all of that work

for in my mind, it's only healthy, at

least for me, if it's not by virtue of

trying to prove something. It's like

there's a difference between a genuine

heart's desire, for lack of a better way

to put it, and what you're calling a a a

pursuit of of trying to win at some game

in one's head. It's like a video game

that that isn't real.

>> Yeah.

It's it's not that it's not real, right?

So So I I I I agree with you 100% and I

think there's a couple of important

things. So you know proving yourself is

not wholly wrong

>> but understand that it is the ego that's

what it's going to gratify

>> right so if you have an ego of I am a

loser by all means so this is part of

the the process I have people in my

office who are losers for lack of a

better term 29 years old living at home

playing video games all day watching

pornography no job dropped out of

college

>> and and so what they want more than

anything else is to be a winner. And so

my work involves two steps. First, let's

help you be go from loser to winner. And

then let's abandon the whole paradigm

because I've also had people in my

office who are billionaires and finally

get to retire at the age of 52 after

having sold their amazing third company

and then after retirement it's not

enough. They want to make another

billion. They want to do something else.

So like you know that that loser to

winner like your mind will continually

move the goalposts if you were hungry

before you got it. The thing won't

fulfill your hunger. It may for a little

while and then you have to take another

step of like okay losing and winning is

now done right and I I I think you've

gone through that. I can hear it in your

words and people can probably hear it

too. the way that probably at some point

in your life

being a tenure prof I don't know why I'm

that's just the thing that that is the

thing that people are the lustiest for

right in the world that I think we come

from

>> it it felt good to get

>> right

>> and I won't lie it felt good to get at a

place like Stanford even though there

are many fantastic Yep

>> and extremely challenging places to

>> to achieve that it felt like the um

culmination of you know 20 years of

very hard work that I enjoyed but that

you know it represented an important

milestone for me but I knew I'll just

say and of course we're just we're

talking about this example but hopefully

people are thinking about examples in

their own lives

>> but I knew for instance I never want to

be a department chair.

>> Yeah.

>> Tons of work doing administrative stuff.

I remember when they told me you'll be

vice chair and I'm like oh my goodness

what do I have to do to avoid that? I

also knew that I didn't care about being

a member of the National Academy. A

close childhood friend of mine was just

elected to the National Academy of

Sciences. We've been friends since we

were seven. And I was I'm so happy for

him because he's doing exactly what he

loves. But I never aspired to be a

member of the National Academy ever.

Why? Because what came after tenure in

order to go there was a divergence from

what I really wanted to do.

>> Yeah. So I I think this is the key thing

about the road map, right? So like we

get conditioned by our sense organs. So

like just to keep it super practical, if

you're trying to figure out what you

should do. Is this coming from my sense

organs? If your sense organ triggers

something that's always been been within

you, right? So if you see like a frog

and like like you really want to be

interested like you want to figure out

how the frog works, but the interesting

thing about the difference between the

sense organ thing and an internal drive

is your internal drive will find

multiple objects in the outside world,

right? So first it was biology, then it

was frogs, now it's neuroopthmology, now

it's this. So I don't know if that this

kind of makes sense. The drive is always

the same and it it'll encounter

different things in the world.

>> Yes. What is that drive?

>> We'll get to that in a second. Okay. So

first thing for practically is like if

you're trying to figure out what should

I do first ask yourself how have you

been conditioned by social media? Move

away from that. Second thing is be

careful about any comparisons you make,

any motivation that you have to because

of a comparison. It can lead to success.

You can be successful but you won't be

happy

>> because this is it's so annoying, right?

So when when I want like I I work with a

lot of influencers and and YouTubers and

stuff and so it's like oh we want our

first million and if you're not careful

the moment that you get your first

million like you want a second million

and then you want a third million and

then it's even scarier, right? So, like,

oh, I got three million subscribers.

That's awesome. But then, you know

what's really terrifying, Andrew, is a

guy who started after me is getting

followers faster than I'm getting them,

right? And so, the ego is never going to

be satisfied. The ego by its nature is

comparative. And even if you're number

one, people think this the most anxious

people I've ever worked with, not

actually true, but

>> yeah.

>> Is people who get to the top and you

think that you're done. You're not done.

Then you're looking behind you at all of

the people who are younger, harder

working, have the benefit of AI tools,

have the benefit of of the the path that

you have carved, who are catching up on

you and and will overtake you soon

enough. So one good example of why we

get why we compare is the more you are

judged, the more your ego grows and the

more you will compare. Right? So this is

almost like we're taught how to when

people judge us, we judge ourselves and

we get judged based on ranking

>> and and so you know this is what we see

on the internet as social media as we

start to get judged more and more and

more we become more and more

narcissistic. This is the narcissistic

defense that tries to protect us from

judgment. Um and so it's happening to

everybody and it's escalating the rate

at which it's happening. people are more

egotistical than they've ever been.

>> Do you think that's um especially true

for people who have large followings on

social media?

>> Absolutely. I mean, so so I work with

with um

influencers and was so curious about the

work that I was doing that I tried to

develop a program. So we now have like a

creator coaching program where we're

like collecting data about whether it's

effective or not. Um and and so the

really interesting thing is I think it's

a unique like effect on our psychology.

The closest thing is like you know a lot

of celebrities are like really messed up

and and that's because they have so many

eyes on them and people don't realize

just as a simple example

the brain just doesn't think

probabilistically.

So you can have a thousand people love

the work that you do but all it takes is

one person who's really nasty. That is

what your brain is going to focus on.

It's going to highlight it's amazing. I

can be looking at like chat that is

scrolling during live streaming. They're

messages that are faster than I can

read, but if someone says something that

is dangerous, my mind will flag it.

>> Wow.

>> It's like a predator on the horizon.

>> Absolutely. So, so we have these

circuits which which were designed to

look at a jungle and see a single pair

of tiger's eyes. And so the danger

scanning mechanism makes it so that the

bigger that you get and the more eyes

that are on you, the more paranoid you

have to be, the more narcissistic you

will have to become. Because when

someone turns to you and says, "You are

ugly. You are stupid." In order to

defend against that, you have to say,

"No, I'm not. I am beautiful. I am

intelligent." And the more times that

you say that to yourself, it's this is

where things get complicated. But you

don't that doesn't result in confidence.

So I I don't know if this makes sense,

but if you are confident, you don't need

to say that I'm smart or that I'm

beautiful. Does that kind of make sense?

>> What about the uh you know to each their

own mindset? Like some people will like

the content. I tell myself this, you

know, some people will like the content

and the way I frame it and um will look

at it uh on the whole that, you know,

some episodes more than others uh, you

know, certain things and others won't.

They'll they'll hate it for whatever

reason or hate me for whatever reason.

And I'm okay with that. Yeah. So, I

think you're doing a really important

thing which is like a key takeaway. So,

when someone dislikes what you do, you

think about them and not you. That's the

opposite of ego, right? So, if we take

someone who's very narcissistic and they

receive a criticism, they say, "No, no,

no. I'm great." Right? So, so this is

where like literally I I don't know if

this is too abstract, but I'll give kind

of like maybe a simpler example of this.

So, um I you know, I trained in Boston

and there was a lot of K2 use. So, K2 is

like synthetic marijuana. And, um so,

like sometimes like you walk into the

emergency room, there's there's a dude

who's like high on math or like high on

K2. like you know he's just saying all

kinds of terrible things that has

nothing to do with me

>> right and the way that you framed some

people are going to like what you do and

some people are not going to like what

you do that's on them

>> so if we want to step away from the ego

we have to understand that don't take it

personally like literally that's the

colloquial phrase right but it's hard to

do so if if you're someone at home

trying to figure out okay how do I

connect with my true self how do I step

away from my ego notice Notice your

reaction to criticism.

>> Is your reaction of criticism? Are you

considering are you actually being

empathic?

>> Right? So what empathic really means is

are you putting yourself in someone

else's shoes and the other person hey

maybe not everybody likes pineapple on

pizza or are you taking it personally?

Do their insults determine your value as

a human being? And the moment that that

starts to happen, the friction that

you're talking about, which can be so

fun, becomes torture because now you

have to make them happy in order to feel

good about yourself, you have to make

the people around you happy. So

interesting. I I think some of us grew

up or somehow internalized the idea that

if somebody is angry or is criticizing

us and it's being delivered in a certain

way

that it must be true

versus the ability to just really step

back and assess, you know, no, it could

very well be they're in a bad mood, they

didn't sleep well. Um, you know, I grew

up in a community of academics, some

athletes, mostly academics. So, everyone

around me wasn't necessarily

hyperverbal, but you know this from

training in Boston, there was a way of

delivering a criticism that felt like a

poison dart.

>> Yeah.

>> That would get right to the to the heart

of it without calling somebody a name.

This is actually a very prized skill in

academia and medicine. I think it's one

of the more sinister aspects of of

higher education and medicine. Um, but

it exists in every field. But people

aren't going to say, "Oh, dude, you you

know, like that was stupid." They're

going to find a way to to kind of thread

that that heat-seeking missile, right?

And I think that sometimes getting to

this thing about emotion versus

language,

the more primitive the expression, the I

hate you. F you, like it's easier, like

you said in the with the with the person

in the clinic on K2, it's easier to say

like they're crazy, they're on drugs,

they are ill, but when something is

delivered in a way that's um very

articulate or calm, we tend to give it

more credit as likely to be true. So on

the internet, I see most of what comes

at me that's negative as I I like to

think there's also learning there, but

if the way it's delivered, the way I've

noticed things get past my force field

is I go, "Oh, wait, wait, wait." Like

they'll say like a PubMed ID. You don't

know what you're talking about. They

give me a pub. Then I'll go to the

paper. I'm like, "That actually doesn't

say that." But but in my mind, I

thought, "Oh my goodness, I must have

screwed up, right? They're not just

telling me I'm wrong. They're telling me

um that I'm wrong because of something

on the Library of Congress PubMed. So,

do you see what I'm saying? So, I think

that knowing what our what our fences

are good at filtering and not good at

filtering is hard. It takes time. It

takes years to cultivate.

>> No, I would hope that it could be

quicker, but it took me, excuse me, uh

it took me many years to cultivate.

>> Yeah. Let's just understand. So, it's

it's hard to cultivate. It took years

for you to cultivate because you didn't

have a teacher.

>> Right. Right. So let's be let's be a bit

precise here. So like and and this is

the key thing. So I I think I I hope

people are following this because this

is how you develop like so one of my uh

you know colleagues in residency talked

about this concept of a teflon Buddha

right like you know like this idea of

like being like impervious. So how do

you become like psychologically

impervious? And what you're talking

about when you say a heat seeeking

missile is your linguistic cortex is

doing wonders because it what a poison

dart right what they're doing the reason

it's so effective Andrew is not just

because of the anger. We'll get to the

anger in a second but they are figuring

out where your weak point is

>> and they're they're attacking that weak

point. It's not about the size of the

missile. It's about the precision. Even

in your language you are talking about a

precise attack. So that precision is in

academia, people are really good at

detecting other people's vulnerabilities

and they go for the nuts, right? That's

what they do. Like psychologically, they

go for the nutsh

and and there's there's all kinds of

other things going on here, but let's

let's be simple. So it is when someone

has a high anger attack, okay, this

means their amygdala is through the

roof. So they are thinking in black and

white. their attack isn't black and

white. A black and white attack is

easier to repel because it's not

nuanced.

>> Okay. So, like when someone is angry,

you're right. It is easier to dismiss

their anger. And you were also correct

that but it it it's almost like a not a

everything you said is correct, but I'd

say the model that you're assuming is

that these are two opposite things.

They're not. The other thing is so when

someone is not angry,

they are not black and white. If they're

not black and white, it is not easy to

dismiss.

>> Mh. Just because it's not black and

white, that doesn't activate your anger,

it doesn't activate your black and white

thinking. Right? So when someone is

coming at me angry, my empathic circuits

are going to activate my own amydala.

I'm going to get angry back. You did

this. No, I didn't. Right? So the most

psychotic denial, psychotic or

delusional denial, that's a better word.

The most delusional denial that you'll

ever hear is when someone's angry. No, I

didn't do that. I never did that. I

never did that. I never did that. I

never And they can believe it because

that's what happens. The amygdala makes

your thinking black and white. You know,

when we have adrenaline collapsing or

running through our system, it collapses

peripheral vision down to a 30° cone.

So, we can only see this thing. So, this

is the first element of why heat-seeking

missiles work. When they come at you

angry, you're going to get angry. If

you're going to get angry, it doesn't

matter if they're right, doesn't matter

if they're wrong. You're going to say,

"No, it's it's incorrect. Doesn't matter

the truth of it." So, this is the first

element of it, right? So is that that

they don't approach you they approach

you in an articulate way when they

approach you in an articulate way

doesn't activate your amydala it does in

a different way but then then the issue

is their finesse and you said a poison

dart really interesting imagery it's

something that hurts a little bit and

then flows through your veins so I can

even imagine when they said that problem

ID your first thought was not a big deal

I know my and then the poison goes

into your mind well maybe I don't know

my stuff oh my god what if there is

piece of paper that I missed. What if

there is something that I and and then

that that injury will grow in your mind

and and so all of your and this is the

stuff right like the stuff that hurts us

when people insult us. What hurts are

the things we believe about oursel. You

know, we all have these doubts because

we're not perfect human beings because

we make mistakes. And when someone

figures out, oh my god, this is this is

this person's weak point. And the really

scary thing is that humans have evolved

to do this. All you have to do is go to

any recess in the fifth grade and kids

will figure out what hurts and then they

will say it to you again and again and

again and again. But I I think it's

really important to remember you know if

something hurts that's your own