I think that being delusional is

necessary to be a founder. You really

have to believe I'm going to be part of

the 01% that's actually going to build a

unicorn.

>> What advice are people being told about

success that you think is outdated?

>> I think that college is no longer

needed. That being said, I believe that

your network is your net worth and

there's no better place to go than

college to expand your network.

>> So, you're saying go to college, but

don't go there for the degree.

>> Exactly.

>> How do you think the best ideas are

found? Ideas are cheap and execution is

everything.

Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose.

Today I'm sitting down with Lucy Guo,

entrepreneur, investor, co-founder of

Scale AI, and one of the youngest

self-made female billionaires in the

world. Today we dive into the new rules

of success, why speed has been a

greatest advantage, and how AI is

reshaping opportunity. Please welcome to

OnPurpose, Lucy Guo. Lucy, I am so happy

to be with you here because not only do

we know each other a little bit offline,

we've been to some pretty crazy places

together. So, I saw you last year on

Luminara on the yacht trip, which was

amazing. Yes.

>> And then I saw you at my house where we

did a fundraiser event. Then I saw you

at the Dior party. It's feels like our

lives. And now we're seeing each other

in camp next week.

>> Yeah, exactly. It's awesome.

>> Thank you for having me. Oh, no. I'm so

excited for my audience to learn from

you. I think that right now we're living

at such an exciting time where so many

young people are driven. They're

ambitious. They want to do incredible

things. You've already lived that.

You've done it. Uh you're going on to do

more. I know you've shared some ideas

with me. So, I can't wait to get inside

your brain today. This is going to be

fun.

>> Yeah. I wanted to ask you the first

question I have for you is what advice

are people being told about success

today that you think is outdated? I

still think that college is extremely

outdated. I think that we're taught to

go study and then get a traditional job.

Um, but especially in the world of AI, I

think that college is no longer needed.

That being said, I believe that your

network is your net worth. And there's

no better place to go than college to

expand your network because college is

really the first time and only time in

your life where you're going to be

thrown into a world where everyone wants

to make friends. No one knows each

other, right? So, everyone's open to

this like emotional connection. I always

tell people like I actually think one to

two years of college is extremely useful

because that is where you're going to

build your network and you're going to

build the deepest network because you

their most talented friends are always

going to get these like multi-million

dollar job offer straight out of

college. But um if you're able to have

that emotional connection like

everything is sales from retaining your

employees to selling them to get you

them to join your company and uh college

is the best place where you can like

really build that emotional connection

because everyone is open to it

afterwards. Like you may go work at a

company, you may join like you know

different uh like interest groups etc.

But um it's just not at the same density

as colleges. So you're saying go to

college, but don't go there for the

degree.

>> Exactly.

>> Right. Go there for the networking, the

groups of people, the emotional

connections, practicing things.

>> And I think college is a really great

place, especially in classes, to like

learn a lot and learn how to think, but

you should apply those skills to

practical skill sets or you should apply

the skills that you learn into practical

use cases. So I would learn how to think

in these classes and then I would start

using AI tools, right? and really

accelerate what you can do and be that

like 10x executor earlier on in life.

>> Where did you go to college again?

>> I went to Carnegie Melon.

>> Did you go to college with anyone that

you're still friends with? What what are

your peers doing now? Like what else

have they done?

>> Straight out of college, I had actually

hired um the smartest people that I met.

So like you know my TA, my computer

science little like had this like it's

not a sorority little but like within

the CS program um because they were just

like top of their class, right? Um, so

that was a perfect example of like, hey,

this is emotional sales and this is

emotional retention. Um, when I had

dropped out, I had actually met a lot of

people within the college network, not

my specific university, but like within

the United States through hackathons.

So, I'm still friends with them and

these are people that I've actually

invested in too after like, you know,

hiring them. They went on to go build

their own companies.

>> Um, so I think that's just a perfect

example of like how they were ready to

like, you know, open up and be friends

with me. And by maintaining those

connections, I was able to hire them as

my employees, retain them, and then

support them when they went to go build

their own companies.

>> Wow. That that's so fascinating that you

were able to not only maintain those

relationships, but they become mutually

beneficial for everyone.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's a really unique way to look at

college actually because I think right

now you have the anti-olgenda

>> and then you have people saying you have

to go to college because of the old

reason. So it's an interesting one. I

also wanted to ask you what's a habit

that you think ambitious people think is

going to make them successful but

actually is slowing them down or holding

them back.

>> So this is actually probably an

interesting one. I think that ambitious

people have this mindset like I want to

learn from the smartest people because

that makes sense, right? So they gather

all the mentors that they have possible

and then they enter paralysis when it

comes to decision-m so they ask all the

mentors around them um instead of

listening to like their own gut. And if

I had done that, scale actually would

have never started because I had a

decision paralysis when I was deciding

whether to leave Snapchat versus go

build a company. I gathered all my

mentors. I asked them like, "Do you

think I should stay at Snap or go do my

own thing?" And every single one of

them, and I mean every single one of

them told me to stay at Snap because

Snap was in its hyperrowth stage and

like it was, you know, about to go

public. Uh people thought I was

absolutely insane given that I was on

this extremely special team with only 10

people and I think I would have entered

decision paralysis if I were to have

listened to my mentors. So I ended up

just listening to my gut and optimizing

for learning instead because I did feel

like my learning had become stagnant at

the company. But I think that extremely

smart people constantly want to learn

from others so they find the smartest

people and they ask almost too many

questions. It's better to make an

imperfect decision but move forwards

because you can change your path than to

enter decision paralysis.

>> I feel like any good decision I made in

my life has often been opposed to some

of the smartest people in my life

because you feel it internally.

>> Exactly. And I think investments are

very similar, right? Because you have to

go against the grain to make a good

investment. Like Airbnb I think is a

great example and Uber is a great

example. Like no one thought it would

work but the investors that thought it

was work, they went against the grain.

And I think that's when the best

decisions are made.

>> Did you have to give up like did you

have equity? Did you give up stock,

shares? Like were you giving up like a

ton of money too to go and do your own

thing?

>> So I was giving up a lot of money. I

wouldn't call it life-changing money for

me per se, but I think it was

life-changing money for other people,

especially cuz Snap's vesting schedule

at that point was like 10 20 30 40 um

which is a very unique vesting schedule.

So um that meant that I was leaving the

majority of my equity on the table.

>> Wow. So you would have had to really

feel a sense of inner confidence that

you had an idea. This goes back to you

are like the average of the people you

hang around with. And because I was in a

steel fellowship network and all my

peers were uh founders that had either

raised tens of millions of dollars or

had built billion-dollar companies, um I

really did believe that I could be one

of those people. Um I think that being

delusional was necessary to be a founder

because if you're building a venture

scalable business, you really have to

believe like I'm going to make it. I'm

going to be part of the 01% that's

actually going to build a unicorn. Um, I

do think that there are other businesses

like lifestyle businesses that are much

more easier to become successful because

you're not shooting for the stars,

right? Like if you're making like less

than 100 million a year for venture,

that's not great. But if you're doing

that like 10 million a year as an

individual, like that can support you

for the rest of your life. If you were

22, you had no money, no followers, and

you felt like you had no connections,

what would you do in the next 30 days to

change the trajectory of your life?

>> If I were 22, uh, I would actually go

live on campus at different colleges

because I feel like I would be young

enough to do so, where I could pass off

as a college student. That's actually

how I was able to gain kind of a network

outside of just Carnegie Melon. um where

I had lived on Menllo Avenue at USC and

like kind of just hung out out at USC as

like a student. I was you know in San

Francisco and I was hanging out at

Stanford as like a student per se and

when you blend into the college

community like you will just start

getting invited to things whether it's

like fraternity parties or hackathons

etc. Um I would also like definitely

continue to go to hackathons because uh

hackathons are great. It attracts a

certain type of student that wants to do

something over the weekend that doesn't

involve partying, right? Like they are

side questing to build and learn. And

when you go to these hackathons,

generally like all the surrounding

colleges go as well. So like M hacks

attracted like pretty much all the East

Coast colleges. So did Pen Hack, so did

HackMIT. So you're not only meeting

people from that college, but all the

smartest students from different

universities. So wait, you were you

weren't pretending to go to other

colleges. You were just hanging out at

other colleges

>> pretty much. Yeah.

>> And so then you got the benefit of

building your network in those colleges

too.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you do that because it was fun or

did you do that because you knew it

would pay off in the long run? Like what

was your mindset as a 22? I guess when

you were at college you were younger

than that. What was your mindset as a

college student?

>> Specifically when I had dropped out um

and this app completely failed before

the te fellowship. Um, I was going to

build Door Dash. Actually, uh, I built

Door Dash at a hackathon and then, um,

in between the hackathon and when I

decided to go build a company, u, Door

Dash got built. So, I was like, great, I

need a twist on it, right? So, the twist

was, okay, let's have people cook food

for other students and deliver it versus

restaurants. This has many, many issues

starting from like food safety. It's

completely illegal, whatever. But I

launched at Carnegie Melon and it did

well and I was like great, I need to

like expand other colleges. So that was

a mindset in going to live in other

colleges and like you know really get in

the community so I can convince other

college students at these universities

to cook food for like their fellow

students and college is a really great

place to do it because um because it's

so high density like you can just make a

batch of cookies for example and run

around campus and deliver it to hundreds

of students and people were making like

$100 an hour. It was great.

>> Yeah.

>> Very illegal. Don't do it. Don't build

it anymore. How did you feel when you

create your version of Door Dash at a

hackathon and then you see the real idea

happen?

>> Honestly, I think the ideas are cheap

and execution is everything. So, for me,

it's like, okay, cool, whatever, right?

Like Uber wasn't the first, but they

executed extremely well. So, um I didn't

like feel any resentment. I was just

like, okay, cool. Like, this is a great

app I can use. Like, let me think of

something else.

>> Yeah. I think that's what's so

fascinating about high achievers like

you where a lot of people think that the

idea is the value and when you see

someone do it you're like oh I could

have done it I could have done that and

it's like well no not really because

actually what it showed you is you've

got had a good idea someone went and did

it already but that means you could find

another good idea

>> exactly there's literally billions of

people on this earth like people have

ideas all the time like people execute

all the time like you can easily hire a

developer in India etc get it done cheap

now you can use AI and like use lovable

replet etc and like develop your idea

But um execution is everything.

>> Where do you think young people waste

most of their time when they're building

their career?

>> I think young people are wasting most of

their time working at these larger

companies um because they have golden

handcuffs. Because when you're smart,

you're literally getting paid millions

of dollars per year, right? Which is

extremely hard to let go of when you

want to leave. They add in stock, they

add in cash, they add in bonuses. Um, I

know some of the most talented people

that I think could have built unicorn

companies that ended up just staying at

Snapchat for 10 years because they just

kept on getting equity packages, which I

understand from a different perspective

cuz it is like, you know, life-changing

money over the course of 10 years, like

you're making like what, eight figures.

I don't want to say their soul because

the work is still interesting, but

they're trading off what is like

extremely life-changing money, like

generational wealth, and like working on

something that they want to do, like

that one project, passion, idea that

they have uh in exchange for cash.

>> But do you think everyone could be an

entrepreneur?

>> I think everyone can be a certain type

of entrepreneur. It just depends on like

how much of an entrepreneur do you want

to be? Like are you trying to build a

$5,000 a month business? Like yeah,

anyone can do that. My friend literally

prompted a chat to create a business

with like a $50 budget and it actually

created business that makes I think a

few thousand a month.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The research I found a

domain name and designed a really crappy

logo. I think that like anyone can be an

entrepreneur but like what kind of

opportunity like what level are you

trying to like shoot for in the sky?

>> I guess the people that you're saying

like they could have quit their job and

I guess and golden handcuffs of course

there's different levels of it. So, even

where I grew up, I remember I was trying

to leave my consulting job, which felt

like golden handcuffs at the time. I was

making like £45,000 a year, and that

felt like golden handcuffs at the time

because I was like,

>> that at least pays my bills and pays for

my rent. I don't know what I'd do

without it. When someone's in that

position, how should they consider the

next move? Like, do you just quit and go

all in? Do you come up with an idea

first? like how do you think about the

phases and trajectory of building

something when you have golden

handcuffs?

>> What I had personally done was I was

working on side projects and after I

received investor interest, that's when

I said I'm going to quit and go build.

Um I think that when people hedge too

much as an investor, I don't think

they're serious where they want the

money inside their bank before they

actually quit their job. So I would say

work on weekends or like you know after

work work on side projects like get some

traction because that traction will turn

into investor money but you don't really

want to tell investors like I haven't

really quit my job yet because it will

make them feel or you can say that but

you should make it known that whether or

not you get the money you will quit your

job or at least just say that. I don't

know because I think you don't want them

to think that you're not serious. I

think people always get caught between

that kind of like catch 22 of like do

you quit first and then you find what

you want to do or do you find what you

want to do and then build it.

>> It is a sacrifice to derisk but

de-risking does make sense. So if you're

able to work on your side projects over

the weekend after work etc. Like yeah

you won't be spending as much time with

your friends but you're also derisking

your life essentially. And I do think

that like once you have an MVP with

traction which you don't need to quit

your full-time job to get like you will

be able to fund raise. How do you think

the best ideas are found?

>> I think the best ideas are found when

you're solving a problem for yourself

because there's so many people in the

world that if you're building for

yourself, other people are going to have

that problem and then whether or how

large of a company it can be. It's just

a function of how many people also have

your problem and how much are they

willing to pay. But you'll know exactly

what to build and then you'll be able to

use the product yourself and be able to

figure out which features to build, what

needs to like how to innovate, etc. So I

think the best companies that I've

invested in and the best companies that

I have built have all been problems that

I've solved for myself

>> and that's where people should start.

>> Absolutely.

>> I think today everyone's now thinking

how do you build the next billion dollar

company

>> and that's almost like the most

>> trillion dollar company. It might just

be like a small problem that you're

solving for yourself but you decide to

expand on the idea afterwards.

>> I've heard you say Lucy that your

biggest advantage is your speed. And I

wanted to ask you what's a decision that

people waste six months on in business

that they should figure out in six

minutes.

>> So I think the thing that people waste

the most time on is actually just

product development and like design. Um

because when you go to a large company

and you see how long it takes to design

small features, it could be months to

years. Um because they want the UX be

perfect. But like a common misconception

is that the UX needs to be perfect for a

product to be adopted. I actually highly

disagree. People will go through bad UX.

people will deal with bugs if they want

the product badly enough. Like for

example, let's say there's um the new

iPhone, right? And like you're checking

it out and it just keeps on bugging and

it's like, "Okay, cool." Like the

payment didn't go through, the payment

didn't go through. You're going to keep

keep clicking that payment button like a

100 times until it goes through. Like

you're dealing with the bad bugs because

you want the product badly enough. So I

believe the best thing to do is just

release 90%. Like you can design I think

90% good UX in 1 to two days and then

just have the engineers build it, ship

it and then see if it's adopted. If it's

adopted then iterate on it until it's a

good product. There's very very few

products I think that need perfect UX

for it to get adopted. Um most products

out there like if people want it they

will buy it. People feel like they need

to build the full product in order to

sell it but my philosophy has always

been like create landing pages. Like if

you're building a B2B SAS product, like

make a landing page and start doing

calls. See if you can get LOI signed. If

it's like a low enough price point, see

if people enter their credit cards to

like save a spot on like the page. Um,

if you're building like even a like DTOC

product, I say sell it and then see how

much you actually need to produce. And

if you're late on orders, just give the

customer another free like t-shirt or

something or whatever you're building to

make them feel happy and like not be

upset that the order was late. That way,

you're actually testing demand for the

product before wasting so much money and

so much time developing just for it to

flop.

>> So many people I see when they're

launching something, they're spending

all the time on the logo and the font

and the color and all these types of

things. And actually, you're saying,

"Well, put it out there and see if

people even sign up and even care about

it. And if they do, then you've got all

the time and money now to actually go

and build the real thing." What What's

our addiction to perfectionism? Like,

why do we do that?

>> I almost think it's an excuse. I think

that people believe that something needs

to be perfect in order for it to work.

And when it's not perfect, they blame it

on the fact that it's not perfect. And I

see this with tech founders all the

time, too, where it's like, okay, cool.

Like, we just need to AB test our way

into it being perfect for the product to

work. But sometimes the sum of all parts

doesn't equal whole, right? Like, you

can AB test to have higher signup rates,

then like higher like engagement, etc.

But at the end of the day, like there's

only so much that can fix. like you

probably need an entirely new feature

which is not really AB testable. Yeah, I

think that it's it really is just an

excuse.

>> What's the difference between a good

risk and a bad risk?

>> I mean, I think it's all a function of

like um what are the consequences,

right? I generally believe that a lot of

products could not have been created

without taking risks. So, for example,

like I think Uber obviously didn't

really listen to anyone and um they

became so big that now it just exists. I

was actually talking to Stripe founders

and I don't remember what rule they

broke but even Stripe apparently broke

some rules and then they just became too

big to fail and like they just had to

make it work. So yeah, it's a function

of just consequences.

>> But how do you evaluate that when you

don't know? cuz I guess we all start

thinking oh god if I do this then the

opportunity cost is this or this is the

risk level. I generally evaluate just

based on like two criteria which is like

is this going to be lifechanging for me

and um am I optimizing for learning

because if I'm not optimizing for

learning I'm just not going to do it

because I think that the knowledge I

gained doing the next thing even if I

like you know lost a few million at snap

for example like I was going to learn

enough being a founder that I can take

those skill sets and like you know

either go get a new job that pays me

better and I'll be more successful in my

role or build another company and then

the life-changing money thing was also

kind of that where I was like, okay,

like this doesn't necessarily change my

life, so it's not worth my time.

>> There's something that we can all use in

in pretty much any decision.

>> Always optimize for learning.

>> That's such a big one because it's

almost like we want to optimize for

success,

>> but you're saying optimize for learning

and that will lead to success.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Like everyone always

complains like, "Oh, it's such a big

risk to like, you know, quit college or

it's such a big risk to like quit this

job to build a company." But it's not

like you are losing your knowledge and

skill sets, right? If anything, you come

out the other side and you have more

skill sets. Like, yeah, you might have

given up, let's call it, like a $10

million a year job, but guess what?

You'll probably get a $20 million a year

job. And I also think that people

underestimate like how much like people

want talent, which obviously we saw with

Meta, right? paying like nine figures

for AI employees. I think that even if

your company fails, if you hire talented

people and you yourself are talented,

there will be someone that will buy your

company for more like than your

investors invested at a valuation

because they know you want to make your

investors whole and they know that you

want money and for the talent they'll

overpay. I keep thinking about my life

and it was it was much smaller than that

like I said the amount I was making but

making a pivot companies were so good at

making you feel like no but you built a

network here you should stay here like

there's such a culture of

>> making you feel like you're going to

fail if you move on and I think people

believe that people buy into that how do

we break out of buying into the fact

that we actually think if we lose a

$100,000 a year job then we're going to

end up with a $70,000 a a job. We don't

think we're going to be able to triple

it or quadruple it.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think that is just again

your network is your net worth and you

are the average of the people that you

hang around with. So, I was really lucky

to hang out with founders that have done

it before. So, I knew like how it

actually went. Uh I was lucky enough to

hang out with investors who, you know,

they would give exploding term sheets,

but they would also tell me, "Oh,

exploding term sheets aren't a thing."

Like, if the founder came back, we would

just give them the term sheet again. Um

people's fear is overcoming their logic.

Yeah. Because logically it's like why

would I not be able to get this job

back? Like if I was valuable to the

company, they're going to want me again.

And let's say for whatever reason the

role is filled. I mean companies find

roles for people all the time. When they

think the person is Swiss Army knife and

like smart and will be able to help the

company, they'll like make a role for

that person, right? Uh, but also there's

so many companies out there that will

hire you based off of the fact that like

you did great job at like company A.

Like company B is going to want you and

company B will fight for you and like

understand that now you have more

knowledge and more skill sets so they'll

pay you more. Um, this is really

people's fear overriding their logic.

>> Everyone says find your passion. What's

your take?

>> I think you should do what you're best

at to have the highest impact on your

passion. So, for example, like I really

like nonprofits and supporting

charities, but at one point in time, I

thought like I'm going to start my own

nonprofit and charity and foundation.

And you know, that might still happen,

but I also realized like at this age, in

this state of my life, I'm really good

at making money. So, my time is probably

best spent making money and in donating

to causes that I care about and being

run by people that actually know how to

run an organization or a foundation. I

don't know how to run a charity. And

like I had actually looked into this

where I was like, I'm going to start a

foundation. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z.

And I realized how much work it is,

right? And like how it's like quite

literally another full-time job. Like

maybe when I'm older, I'll like learn

all those skill sets and I'll decide

like my time is best spent doing that as

my passion. But I think optimize for

fun. Fun doesn't necessarily need to be

your passion, but like optimize for like

how you can make an impact in whatever

you're passionate about.

>> But that feels hard, right? Because

people are like, for example, when I was

growing up, I was passionate about

soccer.

>> What do I do with that? Cuz I can't be a

soccer player cuz I'm not good enough.

So then what do I do?

>> But you can make enough money to buy a

soccer team

>> and you can have a soccer game and have

so much fun.

>> Right. So you're saying that it doesn't

have to be your career, but you may go

build a career doing something else, but

then use the fruits of that labor to

then be closer to your

>> passion. Because like if you're able to

experience your passion, that's what's

going to make you happy, right? Like it

doesn't have to be your full-time job.

Well, I guess now music is my careerish

or my side quest, but I just used

everything that I had succeeded in and

like, you know, the money I had created

to go experience music and like live

events and that made me extremely happy.

I use like what I've been able to create

that helps support causes I care about

which has made me extremely happy. I

don't think that needs to be your

full-time career and like for most

people it's not going to be their

full-time career because like in certain

fields like even no matter how talented

you are, some of it is just luck, right?

like I'll never really understand the

music industry or the acting industry

because I have so many talented friends

in it and it just for whatever reason

they're not making it and I really do

think it's because there's other factors

like network, luck, etc. in that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But I like what you're

saying that people often say pursue your

passion or make it your work. But

actually what you're saying is just go

work, do the thing and then connect to

your passion. And that feels much more

realistic for most people. M

>> like I think for the majority of people

there are very few people who can do

what they love and it makes money but

actually being free to the idea that you

can do something not hopefully that you

don't hate

hopefully that you don't hate but you do

something and that something gets you to

be able to be closer to all of these

things that you love which I think is a

is a much more genuine authentic path

for most people like people can aspire

to live that way.

>> Exactly. And like you said, now you're

closer to music charities. What were you

passionate about? Like if you could have

done something like for me, I could I

would have been a soccer player if I

could have like if I was good enough.

What would you have done if you could

have?

>> Well, it's changed over the years. So

when I was younger, I want to be a

singer, but I realized I'm basically

tonedeaf and I can't sing for my life.

So that was out the window. And then I

remember when I was like, you know,

choosing colleges, etc. I was like, it

would be really cool to like be an FBI

agent and like fight the bad guys. Um,

but then that's unrealistic because I'm

like this tiny woman and you know maybe

I could learn, you know, some kung fu

skills, but like overall, let's call it

unrealistic, right? And then I got

really passionate about music and um I

finally learned I can actually DJ. You

don't need to be able to sing or play

the instruments, etc. to be able to DJ.

So, it's been like a very cool thing

that I've been able to do.

>> How do you at this stage in your career,

how do you separate self-worth from net

worth? This is really interesting. So, I

was not a confident person until I went

to Miami. And when I went to Miami, I

just became friends with all these

people because uh they just like my

energy, right? Like I just see standing

in the elevator and people would come in

and be like, "Wow, I felt your energy

from far away, blah blah blah." It was

the first time in my life where like I

met people that were just like Mikasa

Succasta with no questions. Um there's

no agenda. And I think in the past, like

in LA, San Francisco, New York, there's

always like some sort of agenda. People

were like they wanted to know who I was.

It's like, "Oh, you're a teal fellow.

Let me be friends with you." or you're a

founder. Oh, you have a fund. U Miami

was the first time in my life where no

one asked what I did and they just

wanted to vibe with me because I gave

off good energy. So, I became extremely

happy there. Um, and I think my self

worth is based off of that where, you

know, I have a close relationship with

my family again. I'm close with my

friends. Um, and every time I meet

someone like that's a stranger that has

no idea who I am, they're just like,

"Wow, your energy is so vibey. Let's

dance." Um, and that makes me happy

because it like it shows people like me

for me versus like my net worth. Um,

versus like I don't think I had that

purity before I had experienced it in

Miami.

>> Entrepreneurially and professionally,

what's something that you thought would

go your way but turned into a rejection

or a failure?

>> Honestly, like I'm not someone that sits

and weeps. Like I've never really sat

and felt sad. So, um, unless you know

like a close friend is hurt. like I hear

bad news from a close friend, but like

for myself, whenever I face rejection,

I'm like, "Okay, cool. On to the next."

So, I've never like felt extremely hurt.

>> One of the more like sad ones might have

just been when I was so close to like my

top VC choice. Like I was like, I'm 100%

going to get a term sheet. Like they're

whining and dining me. They just flew

out to meet me. And then it was just

like out of nowhere it was a no, right?

And I was like, what in the world

happened? Yeah. I was just like I felt a

little bit led on but also like I didn't

really sit and feel bad about it. I was

like okay cool on to the next. Let's

find a new lead.

>> Do you think that mindset's

integral and important at that level?

Like

>> I think being an extremely positive

person that's constantly optimistic is

what has gotten me to where I am today.

I think the worst thing you can do is

think like oh like the world is unfair.

Um why did this happen to me? Stop

thinking that way. Like everyone is born

with advantages and disadvantages, you

kind of just have to take what you have

and go forwards and if you face

rejection um just learn from it and

immediately like go and fix.

>> That mindset obviously worked for you.

You've made so much money.

>> You've become such a success story. What

problems did money take away and what

problems stayed or got worse? When I

first started out, before I had any

money, I was like couch surfing all the

time, but I like didn't have anything to

pair with. Like I actually love couch

surfing. It was fun. You get to meet a

lot of people. Like I found couches

extremely comfy. It was like to the

point where I had an apartment. I had a

bed and I would sleep on the couch. So

like that was like nothing but like any

stressors of money like went away,

right? Um but I also think that like

what it can cause is you become a little

bit too comfortable which isn't great.

You've been in so many rooms now with so

many successful people, incredible

entrepreneurs, people that you've worked

with early days at Snap. What do you

think is the most surprising thing

you've noticed about the people at the

top? Something that we'd be surprised or

shocked to know.

>> I think the people at the top are

actually not the smartest people in the

world at all. I think that they lack

frameworks. And because they lack

frameworks, they don't understand a

concept of like how the world works. Um,

which is actually very good because

startups are built when you break

frameworks. Um, because you innovate,

right? Um, which is why when you take

someone in an industry that's been in

industry for decades and hire them in,

often times like they don't innovate

because they're like things have to be

done this way because things have always

been done this way. And again, Airbnb,

Uber, great examples of this. They

weren't transport experts. They weren't

real estate experts. So, they didn't

have a framework of like how things are

supposed to be. Um I think the people at

the top completely lack frameworks um

because they didn't have decades of

experience and because of that um they

were able to innovate but also they tell

their employees like their employees

might be like that's impossible and

they're like I don't care and their

employees might be PhDs and they're like

no literally I've been doing this for 20

years I have multiple PhDs this is

impossible and they'll just like no it's

not go do it. Um and they will say

things like okay whoever does it gets

this like giant bonus whoever does this

gets promoted etc. And when people see

that prize, that's when people like

really force themselves to break the

framework that they know because they're

so desperate to like get that thing that

was offered to them. I would say like

when you look at the people at the top,

they're not the most educated really. I

think that in general they have high EQ.

Some of them don't have high EQ, but

they force the impossible to be

possible.

>> You're reminding me of that great

conversation between Steve Wnjak and

Steve Jobs. And so Steve Wnjak goes up

to Steve Jobs and he goes, "What do you

even do? You're not a coder. You're not

a marketer. You're not a salesperson.

You're not an engineer. What do you even

do?" And Steve Jobs replies, he says,

"Musicians play their instruments. I

play the orchestra." And it's such a

powerful statement because he doesn't

know how to do all the bits and bobs. He

just he's like, "All I know how to do is

put it all together and get it to all

work in harmony, but I don't really know

everything." And I think people when

they're on their journey, they feel like

I'm not smart enough. I don't know

enough. I should be more experienced. So

what's that balance then with you know

nothing about an industry which is a not

having a framework is a positive thing

but then what is different about that

entrepreneur that you don't know

anything about the industry. You break

all the rules. That's what makes you

successful.

>> I think it's also being visionary. Like

I think is actually a great example of

this where he told his team like I don't

care if it's impossible, you're going to

figure it out, right? I think Elon Musk

has told his team this uh etc etc. Um

because they lack the frameworks to like

really understand like this is

impossible and it might have been

impossible at the time but obviously

like innovations do happen um in

technology and they force their

employees to innovate and break those

frameworks to make their vision

possible. But I think it's being open to

the possibility of things like lacking

frameworks and then just I don't want to

say you like they they had knowledge in

like technology in general, right? But

they might not have been an expert in

like real estate, in transportation, in

industrial design. Um but I think that

you need just enough knowledge um and

then just enough grit, just enough

persuasion to get the smartest people in

the room convince them to innovate. It's

almost like having that undeniable

belief that we can find a way. Exactly.

>> And it's almost like we have to find a

way. Yeah.

>> Because I'm not going to accept anything

less.

>> Exactly. And I can literally tell you

like this did happen at Apple.

Obviously, this happened at SpaceX. And

look at like Elon now.

>> Where does the kind of that leadership

zeal or approach can often burn a lot of

people as well? All leaders are

extremely controversial and polarizing.

Like there's no leader out there where

like everyone loves, right? Um but I

think that being polarizing makes you

interesting and the people that are on

your side are going to work their

hardest to make you happy and like to

bring that product idea that you have to

life.

>> What were the biggest challenges you

had? Did you did you have any friction

when you were rising up the ranks and

building your company? And like where

where were the points that you hit

difficulties? This comes down to hiring

the right people. And again, like all

leaders are polarizing. Um, but we were

like all hands on deck. I think at every

single company I've been at, it's been

all hands on deck where you're not just

going to be doing what your job

description is. So, at scale, we had

like, you know, the engineers labeling

data. I had my engineers talking to

creators and doing customer support. Um

because I think that when you are deep

in the weeds, you're going to really

understand, especially like when you're

working with customers, you're going to

understand like what needs to be built,

um what bugs there are, like what's

critical, what's not. Uh so I think it's

extremely important to be in the weeds,

especially early stage, and talk to

customers and do things outside your job

description. Like even our investors

were doing things outside their job

description where they were like on

LinkedIn helping us like find new

employees to hire. They were like,

"Clean our office for us when we didn't

have time to cuz we were constantly on

sales calls." You can imagine that like

that can create a very polarizing

environment because people are like, "I

didn't get hired to do this." But the

right people that you hire going to be

willing to be all hands on deck

>> right now in this AI world that we're

living in, what are three skills that

humans should develop knowing that AI is

going to be able to do pretty much

everything?

>> So, I think the number one skill they

should develop is human connection. and

like being able to like have high EQ,

being able to do sales, etc. because

that's never going to disappear. AI

might be able to like you know reach out

to agents like negotiate a contract for

you, write the contract for you, but how

you're going to close the deal is

through human connection and how you are

able to even like win over deals is

through human connection, right? Um like

so much of it and this goes back to your

network is your net worth is that like

things are emotional sales, emotional

retention. um like even extending a

contract for example. So I think like

that's definitely the number one skill

in an AI world. Number two is I think

develop really good taste in like

whatever you are doing. Like for example

like AI is going to replace a lot of

designers but the designers with the

best taste are going to be able to pick

out okay like this is the best design

that this AI has generated so let's go

with this.

>> Yeah. And then I I think three, like

figure out how to scale your time with

AI. And if you're able to do this sooner

than everyone else, like let's say you

have an idea and you decide to make an

app with AI or like you create these

bots and like that helps you scale your

time and be like 10x more efficient than

everyone else. And then you sell that

bot to help other people in your world

be 10x more efficient than everyone

else. You're going to be able to create

that wealth. Uh before I don't want to

say it's too late, but like I do think

that AI is going to make a lot of people

rich, but the people that fall behind,

it's not going to be great for them. Are

you a chat GBT claude perplexity? What

are you using?

>> I use different tools depending on the

use case. Um, I think anything I want to

say like consumer related. Um, and this

can be anything from like helping me

think of like music ideas to researching

like the best hotels out there, I use

chat. And then for anything enterprise

business focused, I use Claude. Nothing

really beats out Claude code. And

Cloud's new design tool is absolutely

phenomenal. And what's cool is that

like, you know, you could literally

design something in cloud design and

then import it into cloud code, which is

great. Um, even like little details like

Claude is really good at designing um

like full scale applications. So like

UX, UI, etc. But if I want like a simple

graphic edit that I would normally use

Photoshop to do, Chat's actually better

at that. There's different reasons to

use different tools. How has AI changed

the way you're hiring for your new

companies versus your old one?

>> I actually am like include AI questions

uh in every single role right now and um

right now I am actually asking my entire

team to give takehomes to non-technical

roles. Um, so for example with their AE

rules, um, so sales it's like I want you

to figure out how to use cursor replet

like cloud code to create a bot where

it's like you take an Instagram profile

and guesstimate like how much a person

will earn because a like that's

extremely simple to do using AI tools

and b I I can see kind of how you think

based on how you prompt it like what

metrics are you looking at um what are

you scraping on the internet etc to get

this number out there. I think that

every employee needs to be using AI to

be a 10X employee now. So if they're

they haven't taken the proactiveness to

actually do that themselves, I want to

see how quickly they can learn over a

weekend cuz I do think that like some

people just like, you know, haven't just

haven't decided, haven't been in a role

where they're like, let me learn, but

it's so quick to learn. Like I think

learning trajectory is everything. So if

someone can learn quickly, they can

easily become a 10x employee um versus

someone that like might have had more

experience but is stagnant and resistant

to learning. So I think take home

challenges are really great for this cuz

within 48 hours you can see like okay

cool like how much did you do?

>> What job do you think look safe today

but won't exist in 10 years?

>> I think that there are certain creative

jobs that look safe today that won't

exist in the future. let's call it like

being a like videographer, photographer.

That is a very human job. That's not

very analytical, it's very artistic,

etc. But I actually think that most

models are going to be AI generated.

Like a lot of humans are going to

license out their likeness. So AI is

going to generate a bunch of different

videos and photos. Editors might still

exist, right? like or like the taste

makers will go in and choose the right

one and edit it to be what it should

have been. Certain jobs like that like

even writers right like AI is going to

get extremely good at writing but

editing will still exist.

>> What's the biggest mistake people are

making with AI right now?

>> The biggest mistake would probably just

be assuming that AI works really well

and they're just assuming everything

outputed is true, right? Like AI is

really only as good as the data that you

give it. So if you feed a model like the

sky is red, it's going to output the sky

is red. This happens everywhere. Even

with engineering, right? Like if AI

makes one mistake and then it continues

to create more and more bugs, but you

trust AI to code for you, that's not

great. Which is why right now like if

you take a great engineer and give it

AI, like it becomes a 100x engineer. But

if you take like a mid-level or early

entry level engineer and give it AI,

you're just going to actually end up

with a lot of tech debt because they're

not fixing the problems that AI is

generating. And I think this exists

across the spectrum. When did you first

start learning about AI?

>> I mean, I would say probably started

with scale. Scale is the picks and

shovels of the AI industry, right? We

weren't creating these like innovative

new foundation models. We were literally

labeling the data. So like we would have

self-driving car companies send us

lighter data, images, videos, and we had

labelers around the world say like

that's a car, that's a pedestrian,

that's a stop sign on the road. Like

that was what we were extremely good at

and that's always going to be needed

because it goes back to like your model

is only as good as the data that you

feed it. That was when I really started

learning like how important data is

because even like with generative AI,

like if it generates something wrong and

it thinks it's correct, like you're

going to get more wrong generations and

that's not great. which is why like

reinforcement learning is always going

to be a thing. But yeah, like I would

say like that was probably so back in

2016 was when I first started like

understanding AI.

>> You learned about AI in 2016.

50 to 60% of the current US population

have used AI at least once. And that

shows that we just feel like AI just

came around 2 years ago. What's the

thing that people like yourself are

talking about right now that the world

is only going to catch up with in 10

years? You were talking about AI 10

years ago and the average person was not

talking about AI. They didn't even know

it was coming.

>> Yeah. I mean, 10 years is a really long

time. But I think that right now what

I'm thinking about constantly is what's

going to happen to college students

because like I said, AI can make someone

exceptional really, really great. But

when you take someone entry level, AI

does their job better. Like Claude just

shut down Fable, so it's no longer

accessible. But Fable is as good as a

staff engineer. It's absolutely

incredible. So if you're a really great

engineer, holy crap, you're going to be

like a thousandx engineer. And the

better you are, the more useful AI is.

But again, if you're like, you know,

entry level and you're using it, like

you're not going to be able to utilize

it in the same way. And it's not great.

I think in general with new

technologies, new jobs are created. Like

prompt engineering is a new job, right?

And it's an extremely important new job.

So, and like now we have a bunch of

people labeling data because that's a

new job and that's a huge industry.

>> For people who don't know, what does a

prompt engineer do?

>> They basically prompt the AI to output

what you want it to output.

>> Okay. So, having someone who's so good

at writing a prompt,

>> yeah, so good at writing prompts that

like you get the output that you want

>> because everyone's just putting in these

average. My best guess is that like AI

has actually democratized being able to

start companies and be an entrepreneur.

So, I think more people are going to

become entrepreneurs. Um because before

you would need to you know raise a ton

of money then hire engineers and a huge

team and then go build the product and

now AI is building products like that

for free really um or extremely cheap.

So I think ideas people are actually

going to be able to execute way better

than before. Like in the past like it

was like okay cool like if you're not an

engineer I don't want to invest in you.

But now someone that's an ideas person

can literally use AI to generate

something and get traction on it and

then be able to fund raise and you can

now raise significantly less money to

get to metrics that you would need to

get to before you can raise a series A.

So because it's a lot cheaper to start

companies and run companies, I do think

it's going to democratize the access to

being an entrepreneur and like that is

going to be a middle ground people are

going to take when like you know

students realize like oh [ __ ] what do I

do? Like I can't get a job. they're

going to figure out how to use AI to

start their own companies.

>> Did you always know you're going to be

this successful?

>> I always knew I was going to start

companies. And the reason why is because

like when I was younger, I was always

just figuring out how to make money and

build things. Like I really enjoyed

building things and seeing people use my

products.

>> What would you build as a kid?

>> So I built like a virtual pet site. I

don't know how I convinced a bunch of

engineers, designers, artists to work

for me for free. So I built out a

virtual petite. I think I was in like

fifth grade or something. Yeah. Like

fifth, sixth grade. Really, really

young. I built like arcade game

websites. I built like Twitter bots,

internet marketing tools. But what was

really exciting to me was just like it

could be like a really crappy website

like based off of WordPress, but I would

submit it on Stumble Upon and I'd be

like, "Oh my god, there's 10,000 people

on my website." Like I just love seeing

people use my products. And then I would

say like in college when I discovered

hackathons, which is very early on, like

my freshman year, I was like, "I'm going

to build a company." Because my first

time seeing that there was like so much

more to the world than just building

internet marketing tools. I was like,

"Wow, I can build extremely impactful

companies that really change how someone

lives their day-to-day life." But in

terms of being successful, I think that

it goes back to like probably after I

joined the Teal Fellowship, I didn't

necessarily think like, "Oh, I'm going

to be a billionaire." But I looked

around and everyone around me was

raising tens of millions of dollars.

They were like shooting to really change

the world with their companies. And

obviously like I think valuation is a

direct measure of how impactful your

product and your idea has been to the

world. So did I think I was going to

impact the world? Like I guess yes. I

didn't know to what scale.

>> How does it feel to be the youngest

female billionaire in the world? Like

how does that feel?

>> I'm still the same person as I was when

I was younger, right? Like I think the

difference is like when I was maybe 20

years old, I was literally skateboarding

to Barry's boot camp and now I have

someone that drives me to Barry's boot

camp. Um,

>> but you're still at Barry's boot camp.

>> But I'm still at Barry's boot camp every

single day at 6:00 a.m. I still wake up

at 5:30 a.m. every day. Um, I'm still in

the office like until late. Like I

always try to be like one of the first

people in the office and one of the last

people to leave. Although Britney might

have me beat here with being the first,

not the last to leave. What do you think

you had that was different about you

that made you design sites when you were

in fifth grade? Or what did you have

that people around you didn't have?

>> I didn't have friends. Sorry, I have to

say that. That was like you were feeding

it to me. Um, but no, I had extremely

strict Asian parents, right? So, um, my

parents didn't really let me have

sleepovers. Um, and then I wasn't

allowed to do like sports, etc. So, for

me, I didn't really have friends. I was

not cool, right? I was just I no one

wanted to be my friend and I wasn't a

lot of pets either. So I think it all

started really with Neopets. I um

started like you know messing around

with the internet and then I was like

wait this is really cool. I want my own

version of this. As for like why I

wanted my own version, why I love

building things like I learned how to

use Photoshop pretty early on. Like I

was learning PHP like how to build

WordPress sites and edit them. I don't

really know like why I had that desire.

That was almost like innate in me. I

want to say I would have been a

professional athlete if I didn't have

Asian parents. So, I think that was

really it.

>> What What sport?

>> I was really good at swim. I had a lot

of medals. Uh I was very good at

basketball. Um and then right now I have

Olympic qualifying times on a treadmill

on like a very good day. Um but not in

the US. I'd have to like go move to

Singapore and then compete for Singapore

where I have no competition. Um but I

think one of those three.

>> Wow. Still any dreams? Are we going to

see an Olympic run in the future?

>> I have Olympic friends that are very

upset I'm not side questing to be an

Olympian because they've seen me work

out and they're like, "You should

absolutely train for the Olympics." I

got recruited actually by Olympic like

training groups. Really?

>> Yeah. But um no, my side quest is

currently DJing.

>> Yeah. I love that. I don't know if you

decide or plan on being a parent ever,

but like how do you feel about that? You

had strict Asian parents.

Do you agree with that? Did it work?

Would you do it the same way? What would

you change?

>> Yes. I think the thing I would change is

that like I wouldn't force my kids into

a passion. Um and my parents actually

didn't force me into like my passion um

per se. Like they actually wanted me to

be a pharmacist cuz they're like oh you

can work 3 days a week like you'll be

able to like find a good husband, get

married. And I was like that sounds like

my worst nightmare working three days a

week. I would be so bored. I don't know

what I would do. So clearly it didn't

happen. But I think that prodigies are

made and I would want to throw

everything at my kids and find what

they're passionate about. And I think

people are generally passionate about

what they're good at. So I would figure

out what they're good at and what they

seem to enjoy and then really accelerate

their development in that one thing,

whether it's math, whether it's like

being an F1 tracer, because um if you're

able to get like a multi-year head

start, you're just going to be above

everyone else, right? I love it.

>> So, I don't want to force them into

passion, but once I find it, like I want

them to be the very best in their

passion.

>> Lucy, honestly, whenever we spend time

together, I laugh a lot. I learn a lot.

But you're exceptionally sharp and

smart. I mean, I could tell just how

much you thought about the questions

that you gave me answers that surprised

me or ones that I've definitely not

heard before. Oh,

>> I'm glad. Thank you.

>> Yeah, we end every episode of On Purpose

with a final five. These have to be

answered in one sentence maximum.

>> Okay.

>> So, Lucy Guo, these are your final five.

The first question is, what is the best

advice you've ever heard or received?

>> I mean, this is pretty simple, but I

would say the best piece of advice I've

ever received is just like just ask is

the worst thing that can happen is that

you get a no. And I do this for really

everything in my life still. And you

have to be able to handle rejection. So,

be able to handle rejection and just

ask.

>> Perfect. Uh, question number two. What

is the worst advice you've ever heard or

received? So, I think the worst piece of

advice I've ever received is that you

need to hire executives with decadesl

long experience to have like an adult in

the company because especially early

stage when you have an adult in the

company, what they end up doing is

bloating your team up and that's not

great for early stage obviously because

you end up burning a lot more money.

>> Yeah. It's it's so interesting, isn't

it? Because you always go through this

like do you need a young team? Do you

have to bring an adult in?

>> You want a young team?

>> Yeah. Very very emperic.

Question number three, what's something

that you learned at 30 that you wish you

knew at 20?

>> I think when people believe that you're

wealthy, it is a lot easier to move

around in this world. Um, and I say this

as someone that used to take pride in

dressing in like Sheen, Walmart, etc. I

realized how much easier life gets if I

just present myself nicer. Um, it opens

a lot more doors. And this goes back to

like your network is your net worth, but

you actually do want those doors open

often times.

>> And what if what if people say things

like, "Oh, but that doesn't feel

authentic to me and that's not real and

I'm like what's your take when people

say something like that?"

>> I think there's a way to be presentable

and still feel authentic.

>> Um, but it also depends on like are you

down to have that trade-off, right? But

I just remembered the change and how

much easier life got and the connections

I've been able to make since I stopped

taking pride in dressing like a hobo.

>> Yeah. And like those are great

connections have opened a lot of doors

for me.

>> Question number four, who are your

entrepreneurial heroes?

>> I actually really admire Whitney Wolf

because um we all know the story how she

was kicked out of Tinder, right? But

instead of, you know, sitting and having

victim mentality and being sad, she

literally went you and created a direct

competitor that's doing better, which is

just awesome. Like I love that mentality

of a fighter.

>> Fifth and final question. We asked this

to every guest who's ever been on the

show. Lucy, if you could create one law

that everyone in the world had to

follow, what would it be?

>> I mean, this is so basic, but I think

just be nice to every human being,

right? Uh, I think kindness makes the

world go around.

>> Lucy Gro, thank you so much. Uh, as I

said, I've learned so much. Look forward

to spending lots more time together.

Excited to see what you're going to go

build next.

>> Yay. Lots of things.

>> And this is such a joy. Thank you so

much for giving my audience so much of

your time, your guidance, and your

energy. I'm so grateful.

>> Thank you for having me. This is fun.

And if you love this episode, you'll

love my conversation with Airbnb founder

Brian Chesy on how to tap into your

creative potential. And the number one

thing people get wrong about success,

>> the best people in your life will be

people who see potential in you that you

didn't see in yourself. And I often

wonder,