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>> What's happening, man? How are you? I'm

good. How are you? I'm great. I watched

uh your documentary, The Alabama

Solution, last night, and it was wild.

It's very, very disturbing. um kind of

shocked I hadn't heard more about it,

you know, because it's such a terrible,

terrible story. It's such a just an

unbelievably awful situation

and um I think you covered it really

well. It's just was very very

heartbreaking.

>> Yeah, thanks for watching it. Yeah, it's

sort of a question of of

sort of a question of why people uh

don't know about things that are

happening with our tax dollars in our

backyards. you know, are there things

that we don't want to know? Um, there's

a reason why people sort of drive by

prisons on the highway and they see the

little metal sign and it says, you know,

XYZ correctional and they probably

think, as I did for many years, well,

I'm sure it's not great back there, but

doesn't need to be great. And if

anything terrible was happening back

there, somebody probably tell me about

it. But because of the secrecy that

surrounds prisons, um, you know, we

treat them sort of like black sites,

there's no way for us to really look

inside. So the press doesn't get let lit

in and the public doesn't understand

what's happening. And we know that, you

know, when you give people total control

over other people, bad things happen.

>> Bad things happen every single time. And

this is one of the worst things. It's

what's really terrifying is the sheer

numbers of people that died there with

no investigation. That's what's really

terrifying.

>> Yeah. Because you know, you even

detailed it at the end like since then

how many people have died and it's just

like good lord you're you're thousands.

Yeah. Well, there's a attorney general

in Alabama named Steve Marshall uh who's

always run on like tough on crime

strategies and saying you know we got to

lock more people up and people who are

in prison for uh violent crime should

potentially never get out of prison

ever. Um and he says in the film as you

remember um that uh there I ask him

about the nature of crime and he says

well I think there are evil people in

this world people who have absolutely no

regard for human life and this is a guy

who's presided over a system that's

killed that's led to the deaths of 1500

people just since we started making the

film.

>> Right? So this question of like who are

the good guys and who are the bad guys

and you know what's the nature of of

cruelty? What's the nature of

punishment? Are we putting people there

to try to make them better, rehabilitate

them? Are we putting them there because

they're drug addicts and we're trying to

get rid of them as opposed to

rehabilitate them or as opposed to try

to get them off of drugs. So obviously

prisons have become pretty much a

catchall for the ills of society. So if

you have mental illness, much more

likely to go to prison. Once you're in

prison, if you're mentally ill or you

have bad social skills, you're much more

likely to get into a scrape with a guard

who probably isn't trained to deal with

somebody who's mentally ill. And you're

much more likely to get murdered, which

is what we saw happening in Alabama.

Well, you you even the it's the old

expression, who's going to watch the

watchers, right? Because one of the

things that you detail is very obviously

nonviolent people who spend all their

time writing and reading and they're

getting retribution because they're

calling attention to the terrible

conditions at the prison. So the one guy

um with glasses who was beaten blindly,

what was his name?

>> Uh Robert Old Council.

I mean, there's so many stories that you

show in this documentary from smuggled

cameras. So, these guys all get

contraband cameras from the guards.

>> From the guards. Yeah. The guards sell

the camera, sell the sell the phones to

the men inside,

>> which is also crazy.

>> Yeah. I mean, there's so many drugs in

the Alabama state prison system. And I I

spoke to one of the people who was

incarcerated there early on on a

contraband cell phone and I said, you

know, where are all the the drugs coming

from? The amount of drugs here, this is

an incredible, you know, human

wasteland. You're seeing just high high

percentage, maybe 80% of the people are

addicted to drugs, many of whom were not

addicted to drugs before they came in.

And how are you getting all the cell

phones? And the guy looked at me like I

was, you know, uh uh stupid. and he

said, "You know, we don't leave, right?"

And I thought, "Oh, I get it. The people

that come and go are the guards. Those

are the ones that go out. They get the

packages. They bring them in." And I've

spoken to guards who said, you know, we

make $36,000 a year without the drugs,

without the cell phones. So, of course,

we got to sell the cell phones and the

drugs because that takes us up to 70 or

75,000.

>> Oh, god.

Yeah.

So, what are the main drugs these guys

are addicted to? What are they getting

them?

>> Well, there's there's uh originally,

right, it was sort of more traditional

drugs and people were using heroin and

using um whatever they could get a hold

of. But as the drugs have gotten more uh

complicated and easier to bring in, now

they can actually put there's a drug

called Flocka, which is a very uh

significant problem there. uh fentinil

obviously also, but these drugs can be

brought in uh on a piece of paper. So

somebody could send you a letter and it

could be in the letter. They can

actually put the drug into the paper.

>> Oh, sort of like acid when they put acid

on paper.

>> Yeah. And and so, you know, there's this

effort to kind of stop that, but then

does it lead to people being unable to

communicate with their loved ones?

Ultimately, the the easiest way to get

the drugs is for the officers to sell

the drugs. And so, you know, we say, and

I think it's sadly true, that the

Alabama Department of Corrections, and

it's not just in Alabama, but obviously

we use that as the lens through which we

saw incarceration more generally, but

the Alabama Department of Corrections is

the largest law enforcement agency in

the state of Alabama, and it's also the

biggest drug dealing operation.

You know, you're you're much more likely

to die of an overdose inside the prison

than you are out on the street in LA.

really statistically.

>> Oh my god.

Oh boy.

You know, one of the things that is uh

was very heart-wrenching is this uh

callous approach. These you you showed

at the one time where all these uh

prisons went on strike. So they all

communicated with each other through

these contraband cell phones. They all

got from the guards. So I guess it's

ubiquitous throughout the states. It's

not just this one.

>> Correct. And um these people on the

radio were like, "Well, it's prison.

It's supposed to suck." You know, maybe

if they had saw your film, they wouldn't

have such a cavalier attitude about it,

>> but it's that attitude. It's like

>> these are human beings and some of them

barely did anything. Like one guy that

wound up dying from you think they did

something to or they think they did

something to a cigarette that they gave

this guy. He all he did was break into

an abandoned building.

>> Yeah. He didn't steal anything.

>> And entering an unoccupied building.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. His name is James.

>> I mean, I don't even know if he broke

in, right? It was unoccupied. It might

have even been open.

>> Yeah. It said entering.

>> So, he entered a building that he wasn't

supposed to enter and he got 15 years in

a cage. And then on his way out,

the at least they're inferring that they

killed him because he had too much

information about what was going on

inside and he was going to get out.

>> Yeah. This goes back to a story of a

woman um who we had met and her son when

we were first communicating with the men

using these contraband cell phones and

they were telling us what was going on

inside the prison, inside the various

prisons. um we sort of in the early days

we couldn't believe it because the way

we got into the prisons to begin with is

I had gone down to Alabama um because I

was always interested in incarceration

and the problems of that system and the

justice system. I made other films about

the justice system and uh and and I was

always curious about Alabama because

it's sort of famously maybe the worst

prison system in the country, but it

mirrors a lot of others. And my daughter

was 14 at the time, Jeremy. And she uh

and she said, "You know, I'm reading

this book by a guy named Anthony Ray

Hinton, and it's a book about his

wrongful imprisonment in Alabama, and

maybe you should read this with me." So,

we end up reading the book together. And

then we both sort of just spontaneously

decided to take a road trip to

Montgomery because we just didn't know

anything about it. Had never been there.

She was growing up in New York and it

was just not in her frame of reference.

So, we went down there and we met a man

who was the first black prison chaplain

in the state of Alabama, uh, Chaplain

Browder. And I said, "Well, I'm really

curious about what's going on in the

prisons." And he said, "Um, well, you

should just come in with me." And I

said, "Well, I'm a filmmaker. They're

not going to let me just walk into the

prison in Alabama." And he said, "Well,

just don't come in as a filmmaker. You

just don't have to bring a camera. Just

come in and talk to some of the guys."

So, I went into film. Uh, ultimately, we

we were allowed to film. ultimately in

one of the prisons. And when we were in

there to film this revival meeting, just

because we we were lucky enough to find

a a warden who felt like uh you know, he

wanted to to show an example of how

Christianity was um active and important

in the prison system, which I agreed

with. Um, but then while we were in

there filming

uh with like five cameras, which was

just unheard of. The men inside couldn't

believe that there were any cameras in

there and they started taking us aside

and saying, "Listen, what they're

showing you here is a very curated

version of what's going on in this

prison. You have to get into these other

buildings. You've got to see what's

going on in that dorm over there called

the the behavior modification dorm where

guys have been killed by guards. and

you've got to look in that dorm where

people have been in solitary confinement

for five years at a time. You know,

don't let them show you just what they

want to show you. And I felt much safer,

you know, even though the warden had

said to us, when you go in there, you

know, don't talk to any of the men.

They're all very dangerous. I I

immediately felt safer talking to the

inmates than I did talking to any of the

guards. And uh when we left, it was

really because we got kicked out, right?

We we we start, you saw in the beginning

of the film, we sort of start getting

nosy and we start trying to look in some

of these other areas and then they they

shut down the filming. They throw us

out. And then we thought, well, you

know, maybe we're stuck now. How are we

going to make a film about this? We feel

we have to because we're the only people

that know what's going on in here, but

they're not going to let us back. So, it

was then that we found out that there

was this network of men inside who had

access to these contraband cell phones

who were documenting what was going on.

So, that was our way of getting into

those buildings that we couldn't see

inside. Um, and one of the first things

we

learned was uh one one of the guys

inside, Melvin Ray, texted us to say,

"Hey, um, you know, this this this

guard, it was a guard that we had been

tracking already who was a particularly

violent guard. Um, he just beat somebody

very badly and he's now that person, the

victim is at UAB hospital." So, we

jumped in a car and we went to UAB

hospital and just walked up. I just put

my iPhone in my pocket and we just

walked up to the uh intensive care unit.

And when we got there, we found that

this young man, Steven Davis, had had

died from his injuries. And as we

started to get deeper into it, we went

and visited his mother because we didn't

even know if she knew that she had lost

her son, but in fact, she had been with

him when he passed away. she had sort of

turned off the life support and

we said, "We want to make a film about

this. We we're we're trying to tell the

story." And she immediately said, "I'm

in. I want to help you. I don't want

this to happen to any other mothers."

You know, and this is a a very nice

white lady from Uniontown, Alabama with

a oxygen tank. I mean, she's she's not

somebody that you would see ordinarily

as kind of a heroic person, but when she

loses her son, she really becomes uh so

activated and she ends up telling us the

story. And then she says, "Look, you

know, uh they're lying to me already.

You know, my son just died last night

and they're already calling me and

telling me things about how he was the

one that attacked guards and none of

this is true. This all seems like it's

it's fake. So, teach me how to record my

phone calls, you know." So this this

older woman suddenly became a really

important partner in making the film and

this gets back to your question about

Steven Davis. So her son who was a drug

addict,

right? Didn't kill anybody but was in a

car when a drug deal went bad. He went

to try to buy drugs and his friend went

in the house and they had a fight and

somebody got shot and then he got

arrested and was charged with murder

because that's how the felony murder

statute works. And so here you have a

drug addict who goes to prison in

Alabama um and is in the highest

security prison there um and is targeted

by a particular guard who is especially

violent and is just beaten to death in

front of 70 witnesses. Um, and then of

course as we go through the film, we

start tracking that in our investigation

and we start uh looking into the cover

up and why they lied about how he had

died and how they scrambled the

witnesses and how the Department of

Corrections um is organized so that they

prevent people from finding out what

really happened to their kids or their

loved ones and they avoid liability and

so on. And there was one person that we

ended up hearing from, this guy James

Sales, who originally tells just the

police side of the story, just

says,"Well, you know, yeah, it's exactly

the way that the guard said, but then he

kind of hints on the phone, listen, when

I get out of here, I'll I'll tell the

real story."

>> Now, do they have access to these

communications? Is there a way they

could be hacking into it and known that

sales had said that to you? Well, the

the the person that that he said it to

was the lawyer for Sandy Ray. So So he

was supposed to be on a uh private

attorney call, but we do think that the

Department of Corrections doesn't abide

by that. I think they I think they do

listen to attorney calls. Sales didn't

say exactly on the phone what he was

going to say, but but I think they knew

that he was a problem because he was a

good person. I mean, Sales, the one who

who entered an unoccupied building and

was locked up for 15 years for that, um,

was obviously a decent person. That's

why he says, you know, when when I get

out, um, I'll speak to that. I'm not

going to lie to that man's mother, but

right now, this is their world, bro. I

I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to

say more. I'm not going to put myself

>> But just by saying that

might have been his death sentence. He

also as he started to get closer to

getting out, you know, because he was he

was killed uh a month before he was

going to get out. And so as he started

getting closer to release, he just

started to get more frustrated and more

angry and started to say things to

guards about like, you know, you know

what I've seen in here and and I'm going

to, you know, and then lo and behold, uh

he he gets found uh in a cell

dead and you know he's bleeding from

orififices in his body. It was pretty

clear that he was given what they call a

hot shot, which is they give you a

cigarette that's got something bad on it

and it uh and it can kill you.

>> Boy,

um so when you first started uh when you

first showed up with cameras, did you

know basically what was going on? Do you

have an understanding of what was going

on? Like what were you attempting to do

when you got there? Are we just going to

try to investigate and figure it out or

did you already have reports?

>> We already we knew a bunch of stuff. You

know, we knew because we had had this

this we had visited some prisons as

volunteers. Um and I had gone on the

death row uh with my my filmmaking

partner Charlotte Kaufman. We had had

gone into Easterling. We had gone

originally into Holman prison where they

have the death row. And we went in there

with the chaplain and the lieutenant

came down and said um you know

unfortunately we're so um understaffed

right now which is an understatement um

that you know we don't have anybody to

take you around but you know chaplain I

I know you want to show your friends

around the death row so you know just go

for it. So we ended up walking around

the death row for like two or three

hours just talking to men and those men

were very helpful. they they weren't,

you know, we weren't talking to

irrational people. We weren't talking

to, you know, they're they're people who

were trying to get the story out. And so

we knew going in that there were a lot

of bad things happening. We didn't know

exactly what. And then when we went into

Easterling and the men started calling

us aside and saying, you know, they beat

me so bad I defecated on myself or, you

know, I I just saw there were five

stabbings this week and none have been

reported. Um, we started to realize that

it was really a huge crisis, but it was

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So, it's a cra it's crazy that you're

relying on these guards to get in the

phones that they're using to expose the

crimes of the guards. So, and it's like

the guards are aware of the phones cuz

they provided them to the inmates and

they're contra. They're not supposed to

have them, but yet they all do and so

they have to ignore it if they want to

keep selling them phones.

Well, another way of looking at it is

that there's so little accountability

that they don't actually think they're

going to get in trouble for anything.

And they're kind of right. Right.

>> Right. And if you remember that that

guard who kills Steven Davis, uh, Rod

Gadson, who's, you know, this guy might

be the most violent prison guard in

America. He's still working in the

Alabama state prison system. After he's

a has a starring role,

against his will, I'm sure, but after he

has a starring role in our documentary,

which has been seen by millions of

people, they still have him employed

there. They still have him interacting

with people

>> and he got hired to a higher position.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He got he's been promoted

twice and now he's up for another

promotion. Um, so I think to some extent

the guards just say, "Well, you know, I

can do whatever I want. I can sell the

cell phones." And by the way, not all

the guards are bad, right? That there

are guards that we met there who were

pretty heartbroken because they went

into the system hoping to make change or

trying to maybe they wanted to work in

the police department and there weren't

any jobs, but in their town they had the

ability to work in a prison. So they

kind of went in there and described to

us that they wanted to help people with

addiction. They wanted to see if they

could help rehabilitate people. But when

they got in there, they realized very

quickly that was not what was in the

offing. that wasn't an opportunity for

them.

>> So, so the guy, this Rodri guy that beat

Steven to death, um the the story was

that Steven had some sort of an

implemented weapon, correct?

>> Yeah. That he had a plastic knife,

>> right? Was there any evidence of that?

>> Um he had some kind of like a a some

kind of plastic uh thing that he had

made. It did not appear to be anything

very serious because the reason he had

made it is because somebody had called

him gay and you have to fight your way

out of that, right? He wasn't gay as it

turns out. Um but when

>> you have to fight your way out of that.

So if somebody calls you gay, you have

to fight them.

>> Yeah. You in other words, you can't put

up with that because otherwise they're

going to turn you into what they call a

They're going to turn you into

somebody that gets raped. And there's so

much rape in the prison that the the DOJ

report uh that came out said that

there's rape occurring at all hours of

the day and night in all areas of the

prison.

>> So rape is such a significant problem.

Um and when Steven Davis was in there

and was accused of being gay, he had to

make a show of of fighting the person

that was calling him gay. He he never

went after the guards or anything like

that. And everybody that that the lawyer

spoke to, um, you know, a dozen

witnesses who had seen what happened,

all of them said he, as soon as the

guards came in, he immediately lay down

on the floor and put his weapon about 15

feet away from him, put his this plastic

knife 15t away. And then the guards came

in and just started beating him even

though there was no threat. And he would

and the guards would say, Gadson was

saying to to Steven Davis, you know,

quit resisting. Quit resisting. and he

wasn't resisting at all and that's what

all the witnesses said.

>> So they just have to say that so they

yell it out.

>> Yeah. It's almost I think it was almost

like it was almost just a warning to

everybody else like look I can do

anything that I want. I can say that

he's resisting. Isn't it funny

>> you know and uh and the way you know the

way he kills him. He stomps on his head

with his size 15 boot. This is a guy

who's almost 300 lb. I think he's about

6'5 and he's been implicated in 24 other

excessive force cases and the attorney

general in Alabama every single time is

defending the guard.

>> How many other people have died in those

cases?

>> There have been a lot of other injuries.

The only I think that there have been

two people who've died out of the 24 25

cases that we know about. Um but but

there are a lot of just mamings. There

are a lot of situations where people are

just damaged often permanently. You saw

what happened in kinetic justice when

he, you know, Robert Earl Council when

he leads a nonviolent work strike that

guards come and attack him and and he

loses sight in one of his eyes. He's,

you know, dragged out of the cell.

There's huge amount of blood.

>> Um, so, you know, the especially these

guys who are leading a nonviolent effort

to try to improve conditions, they're

always met with violence,

>> right? He was the guy that was at the

head of this strike.

>> Yeah.

>> And then the strike really highlights

something that I think a lot of people

are unaware of is how many industries

actually use the prison system

essentially for slave labor.

>> Sure. Yeah. I mean that was a shock to

me I think is that you know I guess we

all sort of assume well if you're in

prison and they ask you to mop the floor

you need to help serve the meals or

something you know that's a reasonable

thing to do. I think what we don't

realize is that those people are leased

out to the governor to the mansion where

the governor lives. Um you know that was

crazy. People that were denied parole

were allowed to be on the grounds of the

governor's mansion doing like groundwork

landscaping and stuff.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and beyond that

they're used for labor in industry,

right? So those are those guys are sent

out in the mornings in vans. They go

work at McDonald's, they work at Burger

King, they work at Kentucky Fried

Chicken, they work at the Hyundai plant,

they work at uh the Budweiser

distributorship. Um, and it's all sort

of under the heading of, well, this is

good for the guys. They get to get out

into the community. Um, but it's a

forced labor situation because if they

don't if they don't accept those

assignments, then they're going to be

punished and they're going to be

punished with long stays in solitary

confinement. they're going to be given

disciplinaries so that their sentences

can be extended. Uh they are often just

beaten for that. So it's really an

extension. I've heard you on the on on

your show talk about um you know talk

about the Jim Crow laws which led to

convict leasing and what we're seeing in

Alabama now. It's not like convict

leasing. It is exactly convict leasing.

They are just selling the labor of

incarcerated people uh to industries

>> for pennies on the dollar of what you

would get if you had to pay people.

>> Yeah. And they I mean they get paid they

get paid well. Yeah.

>> But not the you're saying they meaning

the prisons get paid well. Yes. But not

the prisoners.

>> Correct.

>> The prisoners get any money.

>> They they get a little money. For

example, the the guy you see who's

driving a sanitation truck, um, uh,

Danny Dandridge, uh, describes how he's

getting paid $2 a day. And

>> now, is that standard across the board

for all those other jobs?

>> Plant, everything.

>> I think for that for that job, they're

they get paid a little bit of money and

then on top of that, they're charged for

the cost of the van that takes them to

the workplace. They're charged for the

uniform that they have to wear. So, it's

sort of like there there are kind of

fees and fines that knock everything

down to almost nothing. And in a lot of

cases, the $2 a day is a lot. You know,

they're they're required to do uh lots

of work unpaid um in the prisons, they

do all the construction. Um you could

see that even the drug dorm where the

the counselor

decided to leave his job. there was a

professional drug counselor in one of

the prisons and nobody replaces him. And

so Raul P, one of the guys in our film,

uh just starts running the drug dorm.

And that's a drug dorm that's getting

money from the federal government to pay

for drug treatment program in prison.

And that money is just not going

anywhere or money is just going into the

coffers of whoever's running the prison

system.

>> God. And is there any accountability for

all the money? Is there any do they do

an audit of the money? Is there is it

just

>> there really is not any meaningful

accountability? You know, there's like

the state auditor who we actually

interviewed and spent a lot of time with

just sort of threw up his hands. You

know, he said this there's just no way

for me to keep track of this money and

you know, for example, uh they they got

this incredibly horrible uh set of

findings from the Justice Department,

right? the DOJ went in to the Alabama

State Prison System and did an

investigation because for reasons I can

explain that are kind of incredible. Um,

but anyway, they went in there and they

investigated the whole prison system,

which I think they'd never done before.

You know, usually they investigate an

individual prison or something like

that. Um, and they went in and and and

issued a report that said this is a, you

know, beyond the pale. There's there

horrific things that are happening in

your prisons, people being murdered and

there's the highest rate of drug

overdose and uh highest rate of rape.

And Alabama's response was to say, well,

you know, we think that's just anecdotal

and you don't know what you're talking

about. And then they decided that their

solution, the Alabama solution that we

sort of ironically talk about in the

title of the film, the one the governor

talks about, is just to build new

prisons. And meantime, the DOJ did not

say to build any new prisons. The DOJ

said your problem is with corruption and

brutality and you have you're operating

really a criminal enterprise. Um, and

therefore you need to address the

underlying problems. And Alabama's

response was, well, the DOJ says the

prisons are no good, so we got to build

new ones. Well, that, you know, so

>> they get a massive contract.

>> Yeah. Exactly. So we, you know, we

always call it the Alabama Department of

Construction because they don't really

change anything unless they have the

opportunity to build something. And

that's really good for all the governor

supporters and all the other people who

are, you know, in the construction

industry. And, you know, they've now

started construction

on these massive new prisons. You know,

Alabama's a tiny state. It's like, you

know, smaller population, I think, than

Norway. And they've got a tiny budget.

And yet they figure out how to put

together a multi-billion dollar prison

construction plan. They can't fund it at

first. The governor announces she's

going to build these new prisons, which

the DOJ did not ask for and are not

going to solve the problem. And they

admit, by the way, that they're not

going to affect overcrowding, which is a

huge problem. The prisons are operating

at like 200% capacity. And you know,

when they're asked about it, the head of

the Department of Corrections, uh, they

ask him, you know, is this going to

affect the overcrowding and he or is it

just the same number of beds? And he

goes, no, it's the same number of beds.

We're, you know, it's not going to

affect overcrowding. So, they're

building these massive new facilities.

The governor can't get them paid for.

She can't raise the money in a bond

offering. So, they go after the COVID

money that they got from the government,

which is not designed to build prisons,

right? It's very hard to argue that

building prisons is something that's

going to relieve some other kind of

health problem or whatever. Um, and then

I think they get fined for that or

they're they're they're you have to pay

a fine if you use government money for a

thing that's not supposed to be for. Um,

and then when they start construction,

they still can't raise the money, but

they start building the new prisons even

before they're authorized by the

legislature. That's how clearly it was

uh communicated that these prisons were

going to happen. You know, in other

words, we we had a crew in Alabama that

was watching this site of this one

massive prison that they were planning

on building and there were just bean

fields and it's quite beautiful

actually. And one day I get a call from

somebody and they say, "We got to start

filming because there are 25 earth

movers here." And I said, 'Well, that's

impossible because the the the

legislature hasn't even approved the new

p prison construction. And they said,

'Well, the prison construction companies

know it's happening and they're already

spending hundreds of thousands of

dollars just to clear the site. So, the

fix was in on this new prison

construction. And the governor announced

that it was going to cost $900 million

to build three new prisons. So far,

they've broken ground and are far along

on the first prison and it's up to$1.3

billion dollars.

So when you open that door, a whole lot

of of whole lot of commerce comes in. A

whole lot of companies come in, you

know, and they asked them why it went so

why was it so expensive? Why how did it

go from $300 million for one prison to

$1.3 billion for one prison and

counting? Uh, and they said, "Well,

well, you know, it's inflation and you

know, meanwhile, like I'm I'm pretty

sure that the government's not going to

say that we got 400% inflation at the

moment." Um, so it's it's uh, you know,

it's kind of institutionalized thievery.

>> Yeah. It's organized crime.

>> Yeah.

>> That it mean when you are in charge of

deciding what's crime.

>> Yeah.

>> And you're running a state like Alabama.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, money

in the justice system is a very

perverting factor. You know, I made this

film, this series called The Jinx. And

>> great series, by the way.

>> Oh, thank you. Thank you.

>> Crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> Like you you watch this going, "What?"

>> Yeah.

>> Is this real?

>> Yeah. Me, too.

I mean, you know, he's he's an

incredible he's an incredible person to

watch. But one thing about him is, you

know, that family is worth nine billion

dollars. This is not like a regular rich

person in America. This is an extra

super duper rich person in America. And

he's killed three people over 30 years

and just walking around gotten away with

it. Meanwhile, you have, you know, young

women, moms in Brazes County Jail in

Texas. You know, our mutual friend Jeff

Ross did a a a documentary there and he

interviews the girls that are in there

and he says, "What are you in here for?"

And two of them say, "I'm in here

because I stole baby formula."

So, you know, that's a money means a lot

in this crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The money stuff is is all over the

place, you know. It's um the the the

perverting of the system with money. Um

you see because you know for example

these big prison companies like Geo

Group and Core Civic make money by

having full prisons. You know they're

private prison companies. Uh but there

are lots of prison there are a lot of

companies that provide services to

public prisons to to to state prisons

like you know Cisco and all these

companies that sell food there. But

everybody makes more money if the

prisons are full. And so you have um the

the head of uh of of uh Core Civic just

did a a shareholder call not too long

ago um and he Hener I think his name is

and and they said you know what do you

think what's the outlook and he said oh

with all the new immigration prisons and

all the prisons and all the increased in

you know uh uh emphasis on law

enforcement and on incarceration. you

know, this is the most exciting time in

my career.

>> O,

>> so, you know, you're really building

this prison industrial complex every

day. Um, especially right now, I think.

And

all these people are doing they're all

doing bad stuff. You know, there's a

there's a company called um

uh there's a company called Securus,

which is run by Tom Gors, who who uh uh

is a big team owner, owns the Pistons,

Detroit Pistons, and some other teams.

And uh is a private equity guy worth

about $10 billion. And his company,

Securist, does communications for the

prison systems. and they made deals that

have now been sort of exposed but they

uh made deals with sheriff's departments

where they had jails and they said

instead of letting kids visit their

parents in jail and actually get to see

them and hug them and maybe have some

kind of normaly

um let's install video visit terminals.

So, the the cover story was the video

visits are going to be great because you

don't have to drive across the state to

see your loved one, but the contract

specifically said that they had to

replace in-person visits. So, when a kid

went to go visit his dad, even if he was

20 yards away from him in the prison

waiting room, he had to use a video

terminal, which cost $12.99 for 20

minutes. And he was not allowed to see

his dad in person.

So, so that's an example of, you know,

and that's in the contract that's in the

securest contract that said that they

have to eliminate the in-person visits.

So when you allow that for-profit motive

to be driving things in these like state

institutions where theoretically we

should you know have some kind of like

moral approach that makes sense for

society or you know can help community

or build our relationships or help

people stay in touch with their loved

ones when they're incarcerated. Um when

you add that for-profit motive there the

system is just designed to exploit. It

just is natural that all those people

have to get, you know, they all have

it's all there's a there's a kind of a a

value to every visit. Every time a

visit, you know, every time a kid comes

and visits a parent, it's worth $12.99.

Well, why do it for free if you can get

$12.99 for it?

>> Is it one of the darker aspects of human

nature in regards to our relationship

with money? if that so many people if

unchecked if you give them the

opportunity to make more money at the

expense of other people they do it.

>> They just do it. Y

>> they do especially in under the

framework of a corporation. The

framework work of a corporation allows

you to have a diffusion of

responsibility because you don't think

that you're the one doing this horrible

thing. It's this thing that you work for

and I'm just doing my job.

>> Yeah. And also if you're involved in a

corrupt system and this is your job and

you think of these people as all good

people that are part of the corrupt

system, it sort of minimizes

the horrible feelings that you have

about that corruption. You just dismiss

it.

>> I I really believe I've heard you talk

about diffusion of responsibility

before. I I think it's it's uh it's such

a huge part of what drives all this is

that you have people who don't really

have to ask themselves the hard

question. Am I the person that's

exploiting somebody? Am I the person

that's overcharging a mom? Am I the

person that's charging somebody a crazy

amount of money for their medication or

or allowing somebody to die from medical

neglect? Um because once you have a

corporation and you look at that org

chart, you know, you could see the org

chart as oh that's a nice orderly way of

uh getting commerce to move forward. But

it's also a thousand points of

responsibility. Every one of those per

those persons just takes a tiny measure

of responsibility. Well, I'm I'm just in

the accounting department. I mean, I you

know, I don't I I don't make the rules.

I don't make the laws, you know, and you

see that, you know, in the healthcare

industry, people recording their their

calls with their health care providers

or their insurance companies saying,

"Oh, I'm sorry. I really can't answer.

That's not my job. Somebody else makes

that decision." And so when you have

these massive organizations,

there's a way for very bad things to

happen in and it's like the death of a

thousand cuts.

>> And it's also everybody's trying to

maximize profit. And when you're trying

to maximize profit, you just find some

ways to justify things. Like your your

main job is not to help people. These

prisons aren't rehabilitation centers.

You're trying to make like you you

actually profit off people becoming like

functional members of society once they

get released. That would be amazing.

Then you'd have an incentive to make

people better people in prison. Like

imagine if their profit was based on

people being re rehabilitated,

re-entering society and becoming, you

know, functional, proper members of

society where they contribute.

>> Sure. Yeah. I mean, the incentives are

so they're so Yeah. They're so twisted.

>> It's like that saying money is the root

of all evil. It's not the root of all

evil. It's the root of most of it,

though. Like a giant percentage of it.

Maybe it's 75% of evil. The rest of it

like what? Lust.

>> Yeah. I mean I jealousy.

>> Yeah,

>> but that's the root of a lot of evil,

you know, whatever whatever the other

percentage is, but money 60% maybe,

let's be charitable, it's the root of a

lot of evil, man. It's it's and

when you can do it inside of this

framework of a corporation, it's so

twisted because it's ubiquitous. It

exists in almost all industries. There's

always whether it's the like this is the

reason why people celebrated when that

healthcare executive was shot,

>> right?

>> They were like, "Hey man, you

guys." Like, "Yeah, finally one of you

guys got it. I lost my dad. I lost my

mom. I lost my sister." You know, that

kind of

is in every industry.

>> Yeah.

>> Whether it's military-industrial

complex, whether it's the health

insurance complex, whether it's

pharmaceutical drug industry. When you

look at the Sackler family and what they

did with opioids, you've I'm sure you've

seen the Netflix the Peter Berg Netflix

painkiller y series.

incredible. It's just incredible

that that guy's just walking around. You

you're responsible for the death of who

knows how many people cuz who knows how

many

people that had relationships with the

people that got addicted also lost their

lives, also lost everything. because

you're dealing with a brother or a mom

that's completely lost and addicted.

You've got your your life is hijacked

now by this situation. Uh you've lost

your dad, you've lost your mom, you lost

a spouse.

>> Yeah. I mean, you know, you I I I've

heard you talk a lot about mental health

and obviously there are a lot of causes

of mental health problems and you know,

that includes social media. It includes

sort of alienation. It includes a lot of

things that are that are you know

present in society. But the but the

prison industrial complex and the and

the uh experience of having somebody

incarcerated

has a huge impact on mental health. Um

they, you know, I think people don't

realize when you have two million people

locked up in these facilities and many

of them are just being traumatized every

day, whether they're seeing somebody get

killed or they're constantly in fear for

their life. The idea that those people

are going to somehow be okay when you

want to let them out 10 years later and

they're going to rejoin society. You

give them $50 in a bus ticket and you

say, "Hey, I hope you can become a

taxpayer." Meanwhile, they don't have

enough money to pay for one red roof in

for one night. They can't do anything

when they get out of prison. And then we

say, "Well, why is there such high

recidivism?" I guess that means they're

bad people. So, let's put them back in,

you know. So, the mental health

implications for the people that are

incarcerated are huge. And the people

who are in their families, as you say,

you know,

>> imagine the anxiety. you don't have any

family members and they're going to give

you $50

and now you're out and you have to

figure out how to eat, how to get a roof

over your head and try to figure out a

way to earn money.

>> Yeah.

>> The $50.

>> Yeah. And there are ways to do it. You

know, there there if you go into the I

mean, all this sounds very dark and

horrible. uh and it is but there are a

lot of there are a lot of um of of

positive developments that you can see

when you give them a chance to to grow

in society you know um so so for example

um like I love what you say about about

community you know about the importance

of building community and seeing the

country as our community and you know if

we're torturing people that are in our

community if we're being cruel to people

that are in our community, what does it

say about us,

>> right?

>> Um, you know, what does it say about

about about Christianity? What does it

say about, you know, about uh about God?

What does it say about forgiveness? Um,

and clearly we see that there are

so many instances where people are

trying, you know, trying to do something

better. There's a there's a woman um

named Erica in Alabama who was a mental

health professional and

she described to me what it was like to

try to give mental health services to

people who were incarcerated and and I

was trying to figure out, you know,

looking at these images of the places

that they keep people and these cells,

these solitary cells with just a little

tray slot and you know they're in there

for uh in a 5 by8 room with no windows

and they could be in there literally for

years. Um, and I said to her, "Well, can

you tell me like when you do a session

with somebody and you're trying to, you

know, talk to them about their suicidal

ideiation or their various problems, you

know, how what does that look like? How

does that work?" And she goes, "Well,

you know, it's a it's a little

uncomfortable because I, you know, I got

to be on my knees." And and I said,

"Wait, why are you why are you on your

knees?" She said, "Oh, well, I have to

be able to talk through the tray slot."

And I said, "So when you're giving a

mental health counseling session to

somebody who's incarcerated,

you're not allowed to open the door,

you're not allowed to see, assuming that

person's not like having a violent fit

or something like that, you're not

allowed to sit down across from them and

have that conversation." She said, "No,

no, no, but it's okay. I I just put my

mouth up to the tray slot." And I just

thought, you know, when you think about

the the idea that that's going to be

somehow something that will give relief

to somebody who's really struggling with

a mental health crisis in prison, um,

you know, we're doing the absolute

minimum. You know, we're checking the

box that says, "Yeah, once a month this

guy has a psychiatric evaluation." But

nobody's taking a picture of that and

showing what it really looks like to

have this nice, you know, young lady,

this idealistic young uh mental health

person kneeling uh outside of a metal

cell with, you know, blood stains on it

talking to somebody inside

>> through a food slot.

>> Through a food slot.

>> And that's probably the only interaction

this person has with human beings other

than the guards.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, are very

cruel.

>> Yeah. And you're alone in that cell,

which is also terrible for mental

health. Like there's nothing worse for

mental health than complete total

isolation. Yeah.

>> With no access to anything.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had um

experiences with people, friends or or

family who've been incarcerated?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Quite a few.

>> What's that been what what's that been

like?

>> Well, I had this one friend that uh I

used to do martial arts with when I was

a kid. And when I was

probably around 16, 16 or 17, he wound

up going to jail. I didn't know him that

well, but uh I knew him as this guy who

competed in tournaments and, you know,

he would show up and train with us and

it's just pretty tough guy. He went into

jail and he came out, first of all, much

bigger. He was just like stacked with

muscle. All of his tattoos he burned

off. So he had scars like these big koid

scars over all of his tattoos now. And

he was a completely different person.

Like a violent animal, like a terrifying

guy to spar with. If you sparred with

him, you were you were in a it wasn't

there was nothing no holding back.

Sparring, for the most part, when you

like people, you're hitting them only a

certain percentage of your strength.

This guy was not doing any of that. He

was full blast with everything. It was

like a caged animal. And as I got to be

closer to him, I actually became closer

to him after he got out of prison than

he was before, you know, because I just

spent more time sparring him and hanging

out and training with him and, you know,

being in these group classes with him.

He started telling me these stories

about what it was like in jail and just

fighting for his life. He had to take on

three guys and he picked up a broomstick

and he was beating these. He's just

telling me these crazy stories of guys

trying to kill him in jail, you know,

and he was in there for three years for

drug selling. Then he went right back to

selling drugs. And um he eventually got

arrested and I've told the story before,

but it's kind of crazy. They found a guy

that had every bone in his body broken

with hammers and they kept him awake by

injecting him with cocaine. They kept

injecting him with cocaine and then they

cut his arms off. They cut his hands off

and then they cut his head off and they

found his body. But his like all of his

bones have been shattered. And this guy

that I knew as a kid got arrested for

that. Um they never wind up trying him

for that. They brought him in for

questioning. He definitely knew

something about it. He knew either the

people that did it or knew something

about it was all drugreated and he was

selling cocaine.

And then um I lost touch with them after

that.

>> That's a crazy story.

>> Oh yeah. I knew quite a few guys like

that because the world of um fighting

like people that are interested in and

in in entering in competitions with

people, you get a lot of troubled

people, a lot of very angry people, you

know, a lot of them that come from

violent households. They were beaten as

children or they were bullied as kids

depending on where I came from like the

most mild of those environments. I

didn't come I didn't have anybody

abusing me. I lived in the suburbs of

Boston. I lived in Newton, which was a

really nice neighborhood.

>> I just was interested in martial arts.

And then I was fascinated by this idea

of bettering myself through competition

because it was so scary. And then all of

a sudden I'm around like

>> hitmen. I knew one guy who was a hitman

for Whitey Bulier. And uh he I would

train him. I would teach this guy how to

do martial arts and he was an assassin.

Yeah,

>> that's amazing.

>> It was very strange. I knew a bunch of

organized crime figures for mostly with

the Irish mob. They a lot of those guys

came and trained and especially cuz they

they knew some other guys that we knew

that were a couple of one of my friends

who was a box. He was a professional

boxer and he lived in South Boston. He

was very tight with a lot of these guys.

So, some of these guys came to train

with us and it was very weird exposure

for me. I'd never been around any of

that. I never had anyone in my family

that went to jail. No, no one was a, you

know, no one was a criminal. No one was

a drug addict. No, there's nothing

nothing really crazy. Yeah. And then all

a sudden I was around uh a lot of these

people that either went to jail

eventually or had been in jail.

>> Yeah. Because it's I I think there's

that question of,

you know, people say, well, if you if

you don't like the prison system the way

it is or if you don't think people

should get locked up forever, then, you

know, you're just soft on crime and and

you know, obviously uh you know, you're

some kind of snowflake and but uh

clearly there's a role for prison,

there's a role for jail. Um the question

is whether we should be putting people

into institutions that just further

damage them, further retraumatize them,

>> right? Just making them hardened.

They're going to be worse criminals if

they get out. If and when they get out.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and there's no emphasis on

rehabilitation. So that's the thing.

It's like if you're releasing them back

into the street, like what are you doing

to the rest of the society? If you're

taking a person who's committed a

violent crime, making them way worse in

jail, and then releasing them, this is

like a slow bomb, you know, it's slow

release bomb. And then also, they have

no options because no one wants to hire

an ex-convict, especially someone who

went to jail for like aggravated assault

or something like that. So, it's it's

very very difficult for these people and

very very difficult for society to make

a decision. You know, you want to make a

quick fix of something, you want to

protect people, just keep them in jail,

keep everybody in jail. But there's zero

emphasis on how to take a person from a

completely broken childhood, broken

home, violence, drug addiction in the

home, all the chaos,

complete accustomed

to violent crime because it's all around

you. It's in your neighborhood. You

imitate your atmosphere.

>> And then what do we do with these

people?

>> You know, there's no emphasis whatsoever

on it. It's just using them as human

batteries to generate money. And that's

evil. That's what's really crazy. It's

And this is where people have subverted

this idea of incarceration being some

sort of a rehabilitation or correction

like, right? They call them correctional

facilities. You're not correcting

anything. You're just making money.

You're just making money off of people

and you're taking advantage of the fact

that no one wants to pay attention to it

because society generally looks at

people that are criminals and have

committed violent crimes as like, "Oh,

well, them. Push them aside." And

look, there's some people that I agree.

Yeah, them. If there's people that

have, you know, killed a bunch of people

and raped a bunch of people and

constantly robbing people and breaking

in houses that are violent, yeah,

those people. those people. But

that's a small percentage of what's in

jail. A large percentage is non-violent

drug offenders. And that's where it gets

really weird. It's like so a person is

deciding you can have the drugs that we

sanction. You can have the drugs that we

tax. You can have these drugs. You can

have these prescription drugs. You could

have this drug that you buy in the

liquor store that we call alcohol, which

is clearly a drug. You could buy your

cigarettes. You could buy your coffee.

You could get all these drugs that we

like. Aderall. You need aderall. Andrew.

I think you got a little ADHD. Maybe you

can use some speed and we'll

sell you that speed and we'll tax that

speed. Anything else? we'll put you in a

cage because you're not following our

rules. And it's like a grown adult

telling another grown adult what they

can or can't do with their life is

responsible for what? 50% of the people

that are in cages.

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>> Yeah, that's really crazy.

>> Yeah. I mean, there's um this kind of

illusion that everybody that is in

prison for uh something that we don't

think the the average person doesn't

think they should be in prison for for

many many many years like a drug crime

or being an addict basically. um that

those people that that all those people

have been let out already, you know,

that somehow like prison activist people

have said, well, you know, all the

people that are in there for drug crimes

should be should be released. Um but

it's not it's not really true. You have

a enormous uh criminalization of drug

addiction. So, you're already making

people sort of feel hopeless. then

they're turning to drugs and then you're

putting them into cages. Um, so like

Steve Marshall for example, the AG in

Alabama

says, "Well, we've already released all

of the nonviolent criminals, right? So

the only people that are locked in there

are the worst of the worst." But, you

know, they

>> Well, that's clearly not true just

because of sales from your documentary.

>> Yeah, of course. So, you have, you know,

and he was put into a a a maximum

security facility for entering an

unoccupied building. That's because

there's sort of an inflation of this

concept of violence. So they will in

Alabama, I think there are 44 different

crimes that are that are considered

violent crimes and they include crimes

that you and I would not consider

violent. Um, you know, so if somebody

threatens somebody verbally, like most

people do in arguments with, you know,

people that they're mad at or whatever,

but doesn't assault somebody, that could

be considered a violent crime. if

somebody enters a a building um whether

they steal something or not, that could

be considered a violent crime. And so it

makes it easier just to, as you say,

like I I like that image of the battery.

I I think about it as like uh sometimes

like the Matrix that, you know, for

Alabama to do what it's doing, it's got

to have 20,000 people in suspended

animation because that's how you can use

them for labor. That's how you can use

them to sell them stuff. that's how you

can charge them for fees and fines. You

know that that you need that many

people.

>> I think they did a terrible thing when

they allowed private prisons. I think

it's a terrible thing. I think

like if you think about the people that

founded this con this country and the

people that wrote the constitution, they

had a great understanding of where how

tyranny can emerge. And so they tried to

create a system and again 1776.

It's crazy to think that we're still

following those same rules today, you

know, but they had a great

understanding.

>> Don't worry, we're not following those

rules.

>> But the checks and balances and make

sure that one person couldn't accumulate

all of the power.

Whoever

first initiated the policy of allowing

and paying for private prisons to exist

in this country did not think it through

like that at all. Did not think of

incentives. did not think of how people

always when given the chance to make

more money figure out a way to justify

making that more money and come up with

rules or regulations or carveouts,

caveats, some reason why they can

continue to accelerate. And then you

don't think about the fact that prison

guard unions

and these private prisons, these people

that own them, actively work to keep

some laws on the books that maybe the

general public would not want to be

illegal anymore, certain things. And

they do that just so they can keep their

prisons full so they can keep making

more money. So then they take the money

that they get from these private prisons

where they're using people as human

batteries to make sure there's still

laws in place that are ridiculous so

that they can keep arresting people so

they can keep filling up their buildings

and making more. And the fact that

nobody saw that coming. Nobody saw that

coming.

>> They they saw it coming.

>> I don't even know if they did.

>> You know, I think they probably

shortterm just saying, "Oh, this is a

good business. We'll get into it." Then

the business like we got to grow this

business just like everything else. Like

if you're selling tires, you know, you

got to make better tires, sell more

tires. We're trying to we want to be

number one in the tire business. Well,

they're trying to be number one in the

human battery business. Yeah.

>> And that's what's insane about

allowing that in this country. And how

do you put that genie back in the

bottle? I don't know. But I I think it's

very sick. Well, the genies figured out

a way to get into a whole new bottle be

because

um

a lot of people say to us, "Well, this

film that you made, The Alabama

Solution, is obviously about Alabama

state prisons. Um are those private

prisons?" And we always say, "No, those

are sterrun institutions, but they kind

of function like private prisons in a

way because they're able to make deals

with Securious about their prison phone

system and that makes millions and

millions and millions of dollars that's

extracted from the poorest people in the

country, right, who are being charged

like high, you know, daily and and and

even per minute fees for being able to

communicate with their families. Um then

you have companies who are selling the

food to the prisons. You have companies

that are doing health care contracts

with the prisons. And so there's so much

money in that that they sort of even

though the state owns that piece of

land, it still kind of functions the way

that private prisons function,

>> right? So, we've sort of just given over

the care of 2 million Americans to

companies that are accountable to their

shareholders maybe, but the shareholders

don't know.

>> Well, they're certainly not accountable

to humane living conditions. That one

scene where kinetic justice, that

gentleman, what's his real name?

>> Robert Earl Counsel. When Robert Earl

Council was in solitary and you see the

rats swimming in his toilet. Rats are

swimming in his toilet and he has rats

in a water jar. And what do you say?

Like

>> 11 caught in one night.

>> And why are they there? Because you know

he tries to put his food in a bag that

hangs on the door of the cell. But then

they write him a disciplinary for doing

that. But if he takes his food out of

the bag and he puts it on the counter,

then the rats are going to get it during

the night.

>> They're just everywhere.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So there are rats all there

rats throughout the prison, you know,

>> and so he has to asleep in this room

where these rats are crawling all over

him at night.

>> Yeah. You know, and people just to get

into him for a second. I mean, he is he

is frankly one of the most one of the

bravest people I've ever met in my life.

You know, this is a guy who was

incarcerated when he was 19 and he was

selling drugs in his neighborhood. um

somebody is trying to chase him down

with a car

and almost runs him over and he shoot

shoots the person through the window and

the guy dies. So this is now 30 years

ago. Um in any other condition you would

have thought that's a self-defense case,

right? That's that's that it was clear

that he was trying to prevent somebody

from running him over with a car. And

yet here he is 30 years later with a

life without parole sentence in a

Alabama prison. And he's spending his

time trying to organize nonpiece non

nonviolent labor strikes. He's trying to

do hunger strikes. He's trying to use

every um every method that he can use to

call attention to the problem that

20,000 other people have. and he's using

a contraband cell phone to talk to us

knowing that he's probably going to get

retaliated against by the authorities

once the film comes out or once they

know that he's organizing a labor

strike. Um he's he would be a

unbelievable

uh asset to society if he were out in

the world, right? He's he's advocating

for non-violence. He's obviously smart

as a whip and he's incredibly motivating

to other people. you know, he's got that

entire prison system listening to him

when they want to be violent because

they're so angry at their at the

treatment and and and the prison system

starts starts birdfeeding them, starts

to cut off their food rations to force

them back to work and kinetic Robert

Earl is the person who says, you know,

that's not going to solve anything. We

don't want to do that. So, you know, you

see this huge level of humanity, talent,

thoughtfulness in people that are locked

away, and we just assume, well, if

they're in prison, that means that

they're bad people. And meantime,

there's so many other people on the

outside who don't get locked up uh for

doing things that are much worse, you

know? So, it's a it's a very confusing

message to be sending.

>> Well, especially for someone like you

who did the jinx and then you do this.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's a really good point.

You know, as I I worked for a long time

on the story of Robert Durst, and when

we discovered evidence that showed that

he had killed uh his his wife and his

best friend and his neighbor in

Galveston dismembered him, um we found

the only evidence that proved that he

did those things. And suddenly I was in

a dialogue with the LA District

Attorney, the LA PD talking about how to

get him arrested, you know, and and even

if I don't believe in the way that we

incarcerate people, it's clear that

there's a role for prison. And there's

clearly a guy like Bob Durst who keeps

killing people needs to be taken out of

society.

>> What kind of prison is he in? Well, he's

he died now and he was locked up in um

in a facility in Northern California.

It was sort of a facility for senior

citizens who had medical problems. So,

you know, a lot of really rich people,

as you could tell from, you know, there

have been a bunch of cases on this. Um

really rich people hire uh consultants

to help them navigate what prison

they're going to end up going to. they

can negotiate for better conditions. Um,

and so you end up, you know, with that

sort of situation where a guy who maybe

has stolen a hund00 million dollars and

not paid his taxes or taken money from

his workers or uh committed some

horrible act of fraud ends up in a in a

prison farm, ends up in a pretty nice

facility where, you know, he has access

to lots of things. Um, and then you have

poor people that are locked up in places

that have rats in their cells and

vermin.

Um, but yeah, it was it was I was always

sort of amazed that Robert Durst was

able to get away with what he got away

with for so long. And

>> why do you think that is?

>> Well, you know, did you how much did you

know about it before you started the

documentary series? Well, I knew a lot

because I had made a film, a narrative

film called All Good Things about sort

of Robert Durst's origin story, his

relationship with his beautiful wife

when they were both young before all the

bad stuff started happening and he

became the guy that he became. Um there

was this kind of strange love story

between this kind of difficult man and

this very lovely girl um Kathleen

McCormack and

I made this film. Ryan Gosling played

the Bob Durst character and Kirstson Dun

played uh played his wife and really

investigated that story so that we could

tell that the the the tale of what had

happened to them in an accurate way. And

while I was doing that,

um, we reached out to Robert Durst, the

real Robert Durst, and I said, you know,

we're making this film about, I guess,

we spoke to his lawyer, so we're making

this film about you, about your client,

and, uh, we'd like to talk to him, get

his input, make sure that we're trying

to tell the story after.

>> What was the premise of the film? It was

basically the story about him and his

wife when they first met this rich guy

and this girl from sort of the other

side of the tracks and then how

eventually that relationship got toxic.

Eventually he kills her and then later

his best friend uh Susan Berman who

knows about what happened to his wife

starts to become problematic. Then he

kills her and then later he moves to

Galveston, Texas and disguises himself

as a deaf mute woman. if you remember

this. And he ends up uh becoming friends

with his elderly neighbor and this guy

named Morris Black. And they go out

shooting on in Pelican Island and so on.

And eventually they have a little

altercation because he figured out who

Bob Durst was and that he was sort of on

the run and he dismembers that man. He

kills him and dismembers him.

>> This movie with Kristen Dunst, when was

that released? Uh I guess we started

working on that in around 2005 and it

came out in 2010. So in 2010, it's about

to come out in theaters, this film, and

there was a big article in the New York

Times about how accurate it was and how

much we had done to, you know, make sure

that the details were right and so on.

And the real Robert Durst uh reads the

article and calls me out of the blue and

you know, I had tried to get in touch

with him before without any success. and

he actually calls the distributor of the

film first, Magnolia Pictures, and he he

asked for the the president, uh, Aean

BS. And, um, and and Aean's Aean and I

would use Bob's voice like when we would

talk to each other because Bob had a

very recognizable voice. So, when I

would call him, we would hang up and I

would say, "Bye-bye." And that was

always sort of Bob's tone. And then one

day somebody calls Aemon's office and

says, "This is Robert Durst." And so his

secretary walks in the office and says

like, you know, in air quotes like,

"It's Robert Durst on the phone."

Thinking that it's me.

>> And he picks up the phone. He's like,

"Hey, Bob. I, you know, I'm not

surprised you're calling. I think we did

a hell of a job on the film."

>> And there's a long pause and he says,

the guy says, "Who am I talking to?" And

Aman says, "I oh, who's this?" And he

says, "This is Robert Durst." And so he

reaches out to me. I knew that he was

trying to get trying to reach me so I

could record my very first phone call

with him and I call him and I say,

"Listen, I'm I'm I'm keen to talk to

you. I've been making this film about

you for the last 5 years." And he said,

"Well, I would like to see the film."

So, I arranged for him to see the film.

And he calls me immediately after he

sees the film and he says, "I want you

to know I like the movie."

movie kind of shows him killing three

people, right? And I said, "Well, why

did you like it?" And he said, "Well,

uh, you know, you did a beautiful job

explaining what I was going through as a

child and the difficulty I had and

losing my mother and Kirstston Dunst was

just like my my wife Kathy and I cried

three times." And I would like to do

something with you, you know? I would

like there there to be something out

there from me, my ability to sort of

tell my story. And I said, "All right,

well, why don't we sit down? I'll ask

you a bunch of questions." And he said,

"That's fine. Okay, let's do that." So I

So I end up sitting with him for three

days. I've just finished a movie about

him, a dramatic film, which is now in

theaters. And I sit down with him uh and

interview him for 21 hours. And you

think you do long interviews. He's he's

21 hours with this one person and he is

uh fascinating. I mean absolutely

extraordinary. He's he he is incredibly

honest about things that most people

would never be honest about.

>> Like

>> you know he talks about how you know he

had

violent arguments with his wife or he

says you know that he he says crazy

stuff. I mean he explained to me that I

said you know I think you were kind of

offensive when you went to visit her

mother. you know, she had this mother

who was in her 80s and you went to visit

her mother

and uh you know, I think you did some

odd things. He goes, "Well, yeah, you

know, I visited those people and they

were, you know, that woman, she reads

Yankee magazine and and uh you know, uh

and and she asked me how I liked her

daughter and I told her that uh Kathy

had come out of the shower and my penis

was hard."

Like you said that to her aging mother.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm mean. What am I? Yeah,

sure. That's what I thought. You know,

uh you know, or I or you say to him,

well, what did you say? Um

you know, why did you tell the police

that uh after your wife after you put

your wife on the train, you went to the

neighbors to have a drink when that

clearly wasn't true. Oh, yes, I lied

about that. I said, why did you lie to

the police? Well, you know, I needed to

be somewhere and I wanted them to stop

asking me questions. So, you know, I

told them that I went to the neighbors.

I said, "Well, it was so easy to

disprove. They just talk to the

neighbor." Well, yeah, but you know, I

don't people don't usually do that. So,

he's very candid. He he he speaks very

very openly almost like having a level

of sort of asberers.

>> Did you believe him in at any moment

while he's telling you this? Because

obviously he's proclaiming his

innocence, right?

>> Yeah. I mean, he is

so good at telling

the story his way and he tells you so

many facts that are true that when he

occasionally lies about really critical