A lot of people think emotion regulation

is getting rid of a feeling. It's not

what it is. It's just having another

relationship to it. I've had anxiety or

live with it for a lot of my life, but

sometimes I just say hello to it. It's

like, "Hey, how you doing today?" And it

goes away pretty quickly or it just sits

there. I think that's the other thing

about emotion regulation that people

kind of misunderstand. They think it's

like, I got to check in with how I'm

feeling all day long and then regulate.

Check in, regulate. Like you'd become

psychotic if you did that all day long.

>> Most of the time our emotions are in the

background, you know, like if you

thought about your feelings all day

long, you wouldn't be able to do this

podcast. Like that's unproductive.

Emotions matter when there's a shift in

our environment or the relationships.

You know, if you said something that

offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm

feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I

have to make a choice in that moment

like how do I manage it? That's where

the magic happens. Welcome to the

Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss

science and science-based tools for

everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark

Brackett is a professor of psychology at

Yale University where he is also the

director of Yale Center for Emotional

Intelligence. He is an expert in the

science of emotions and how to apply

that to improve communication and

relationships and performance in school

and work. One common problem around

discussions of emotions and emotional

intelligence is that they are often

vague and frankly somewhat soft and

cliche. But not when Mark Brackett

explains emotional intelligence as he

does today because he talks about the

practical tools that emerge from the

science of emotional intelligence that

you can use to improve your emotional

life both with yourself and with others.

And he's not just going to tell us to

feel our emotions more deeply. While

that could be important in certain

settings, his research in and out of the

laboratory is really focused on the

small things that we can all do both in

moments of emotion, but also on our own

that can greatly increase our ability to

understand what we're feeling,

communicate it effectively, and to be

better listeners, especially in moments

that would otherwise create tension or

confusion. In fact, what he shares today

are life skills. the sort of life skills

that make everything school,

friendships, romantic relationships,

professional life, and family life far

more effective and enriching. So, I'm

confident that you'll come away from

today's episode with Mark Brackett

knowing what to do and when to use the

tools that you'll learn, and they are

indeed very powerful to improve your

life. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark

Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome.

>> Thank you. Glad to be back. So much to

discuss today about emotion regulation,

about

the kids, the future. Are the kids all

right?

>> They could be better.

>> Mhm.

and our obligation, our generation,

other generations, and you know,

providing a world where kids can thrive

and where everyone can thrive. It's it's

a bit of a mess out there, but you're

going to put some clarification on

things for people. You're doing amazing

work to give people tools for emotion

regulation and more. So, let's start off

and define emotion regulation. What is

that?

>> Yeah. Well, I think the simplest way to

define it is using your emotions wisely

to achieve your goals in life. It's a

little too broad. And so, it's funny. As

I was writing my book, I decided I need

a formula. And so, my formula is ER,

which is emotion regulation, is a set of

goals and strategies. So it's e r

parenthesis g plus s and that equals a

function of

e plus p plus c. You know made me feel

smart. Emotion,

>> person context.

>> Mhm.

>> So what I mean by that specifically is

that it's a goal oriented process. You

have to want to regulate. You can

prevent unwanted emotions. I have an

acronym for that too. It's prime. You

can prevent unwanted emotions. You can

reduce the difficult ones. I think

people forget the I initiate emotions

like when you're teaching or leading or

presenting like you want to create an

emotion in the room. That's

upregulating. You can maintain an

emotion like you know I'm having a good

day. I'm going to avoid these things to

just keep it going. Savor the moment.

And then there's enhancing which is kind

of boosting an emotion. So that's prime.

That's the goals. The strategies we can

talk about for hours. Um we'll get into

that a little bit later. And then I

think what's most people misunderstand

is that like what we regulate our

emotions and like what I do for example

to deal with my anxiety is really

different than my anger

than my worry or other emotions and that

it's a function of the emotion you're

feeling. It's a function of me as an

individual. You know I am on the

neurotic side. uh I'm on the introverted

side and so my strategy selection would

be influenced by that and then the

context like right here right now like I

know you're into fitness and like

running and you know all this kind of

stuff and I'm like Andrew I'm really

nervous right now like do you mind if we

take a break and I go for a run like you

know it's a little weird Mark so context

matters you got to like right now if I

were anxious it's like Mark you got to

use some cognitive strategies or

breathing work I can't go anywhere so

I'm stuck and I think people need to see

that kind of full spectrum.

>> I feel like there's a close tie between

emotion regulation and self-awareness.

>> Yeah.

>> But I feel like there's a tension

between self-awareness and being able to

experience and enjoy life. For instance,

if I'm feeling anxious,

I I'm thinking about how I'm appearing,

how I'm sounding, that it's

uncomfortable. Um, but if I get totally

outside of that and just be in the

experience that I'm in, uh, then there's

the potential to say the wrong thing or,

you know, uh, offend somebody or who

knows. So, when we talk about emotion

regulation, what's the best approach to

that that doesn't keep us in a subtext

in our mind and and sort of out of the

room? Because when we're alone, it's

>> quite a bit different. We can we can

breathe. We can use whatever

self-regulation tools we want, ruminate

or or ruminate or write or, you know, or

text or call a friend, whatever it is.

But when we're at work, at school, uh,

on a podcast, if if there's that subtext

like, uh, I'm I'm not locked in here.

I'm not in the experience completely.

I'm I'm I'm self-regulating or paying

attention to myself, that can be very

uncomfortable in its own right. It's

work.

>> Yeah, it's effortful. Uh, and not always

the best effort if it's going down the

rabbit hole. I think that you're getting

at which is this mindset piece that the

first step is our mindset about our

feelings. So let me ask you what's your

mindset around anxiety?

Um I

well I have assumptions around it. I was

telling someone the other day because I

spend a lot of time alone and I'm fairly

introverted. If I go into a crowded

environment, for the first five, six

minutes, I'm feeling kind of

overwhelmed, like, who wa it's really

crowded in here. There are a lot of

people. And I I actually feel like I

have a bit of a social interaction

disorder for those first few minutes.

But then after about 20 30 minutes, I'm

in that experience and I'm feel like I

very comfortable. So I have this mindset

that social anxiety is something that um

is like waiting into water. It's always

a little bit too cold at first or

usually is a little too cold, but over

time you acclimate.

>> All right, you didn't answer the

question.

>> Okay,

>> so I got to frame it another way. What's

your relationship to anxiety?

>> I hate it.

>> Okay, there you go. See how you

automatically were like, I hate anxiety.

I did too for most of my life. And then

I was with a friend who's a

neuroscientist about anxiety and she

said to me, Mark, tell me all the things

that make you anxious. I said, 'Well,

I'm anxious about fundraising and you

know, I got to raise the money to keep

the research going. I'm anxious to make

I want to make sure that like everything

we do is high quality. And I went on and

on and then she asked me another

question. She said, "Well, what do those

have in common?" I'm like, "What are you

talking about?" And then I thought about

it and I said, "Well, those are things

that are important to me."

And so she said, "So why would anxiety

be a bad thing?"

And I think that we have to learn how to

adopt a mindset around emotions that

there are no bad emotions. It's what we

do with our emotions that makes them

harmful or difficult for us to live our

lives. But anxiety

is a good thing. It's saying there's

perceived uncertainty around the future.

Like I'm anxious about how I'm going to

act in this environment or how I'm going

to be perceived this environment. It's

not a bad thing because you want to be

perceived well. But if you automatically

assume it's bad, then it's going to put

you on the path to dysregulation.

>> So if we accept the idea that all

emotions are okay,

>> yeah,

>> but that the expression of all emotions

is in every context is not okay. That it

should be context specific.

>> Yes.

>> Um I actually think that provides some

freedom. I can feel that freedom. Like

it's okay to be super angry. It's okay

to be frustrated. it's okay to be

anxious. Uh but how that's expressed is

what's critical. Uh it makes good

intuitive sense. I think that what's

hard to know is what to do with the

emotion if there is no outward

expression of it like like where should

it go?

>> Well, it doesn't have to go anywhere

sometimes. Sometimes it can just be.

>> And that's a big part of regulation,

which is that a lot of people think

emotion regulation is getting rid of a

feeling. It's not what it is. It's just

having another relationship to it. Like

I've been I'm 56.

I've had anxiety or live with it for a

lot of my life, but sometimes I just say

hello to it. It's like, "Hey, how you

doing today?" And it goes away pretty

quickly or it just sits there. I think

that's the other thing about emotion

regulation that people kind of

misunderstand. They think it's like, I

got to check in with how I'm feeling all

day long and then regulate. Check in,

regulate. Like you'd become psychotic if

you did that all day long. Most of the

time our emotions are in the background,

you know, like if you thought about your

feelings all day long, you wouldn't be

able to do this podcast. Like that's

unproductive. Emotions matter when

there's a shift in our environment or

the relationships. You know, if you said

something that offended me, boom, I'm

activated. I'm feeling angry or kind of

shocked. Then I have to make a choice in

that moment like how do I manage it?

That's where the magic happens. But on a

day-to-day basis, thank God we're not,

you know, we wouldn't want to do that.

>> I would like to take a quick break and

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>> I'd love to poke at some of the

assumptions that I know I have, but I

wonder if other people have as well.

>> My dad's from South America, and I

remember long ago he said because he

went to formal schools, um he said that

he was raised with this terrible idea,

he called it terrible, that um if

somebody was happy and they smiled a

lot, that they were stupid. And I said,

"What is that about?" And he said, well,

that came in his words from the British

school system where uh the idea was that

you were supposed to be um skeptical of

things and that if you were happy or

happy golucky and you weren't drinking

that people would assume that you were

an idiot because you weren't bothered by

the problems in the world and you were

accepting of the things that you heard

and were told. In other words, you're an

idiot. And my dad's a very happy person

now. Sure. And

>> he has talked about, you know, having to

break that mold that like it's okay to

wake up and take a walk and and be happy

that it's okay to be happy. And so

that's just one thing that I I think I

grew up thinking too, not and maybe not

to that extreme that that if especially

in academia, like if you're not disc

like to be happy is to not be

discerning. It's a totally false. Right.

>> Of course.

>> Now we're a long way from England right

now. Um uh and that's probably something

more of my dad's generation than mine.

But I think the idea nowadays does seem

to be that if you're happy golucky and

you're feeling good that you must not be

thinking about all the terrible things

going on in the world or that it's

insensitive to those that are suffering

etc etc. I'd love your thoughts on this

this idea that we don't give ourselves

permission to feel as good as we might

feel because of some social pressure or

assumptions that we've internalized

>> which is all learned

>> and so this is these are learned

phenomenon

>> and it's sometimes outside influence so

talk about happiness you know as I was

writing and I was doing the chapter on

mindsets around emotion and talking

about this relationship with different

emotions and you know it play around

with this all day long. I could say,

"What's your relationship to anger?

What's your relationship to happiness

and contentment?" And all of a sudden,

you start realizing, "Wow, I have a

complicated relationship with my

emotions." And I was thinking about it

with happiness, too. And for me, what's

interesting, which is different

completely from your dad's, is because

of my kind of tough childhood and a lot

of bullying, is that I would go to

school one day and I would be happy and

I'd see the bullies and all of a sudden

they'd say things like, you know, what

are you so happy about today, bracket?

And I didn't realize that

until I was writing. And then I would

get on stage and give a I do a lot of

public speaking and I'd be standing

there like feeling really good with my

speaking and then I get the applause at

the end and I would start kind of

looking down and I started realizing I'm

uncomfortable being happy

>> like I'm I'm waiting for something to go

wrong

because you know in my childhood like

happy meant like you know we're going to

bring you down. We all have these kind

of developmental

um connections, for lack of a better

term, to our different emotions. And I

think that it gets back to the

phenomenon. There's no good or bad

emotions. Life firstly, some of it is

genetic and biological. You know, our

proclivity to experience certain

emotions. The regulation piece is all

learned. Like you're not born with a,

you know, a pocket full of

evidence-based strategies to regulate.

And it's just like like you know I don't

know about you growing up you know my

father was very different. My father was

the angry guy and he'd say son you got

to toughen up. I'm like dad look at me

you know come on let's move on it's not

happening. And you know that I have a

fifth degree black butt. I became the

tough guy that my father wanted me to

be. But nevertheless you know what does

that even mean? But you know growing up

when I was struggling my parents missed

a lot of the cues come down the stairs.

Because I didn't have my father say,

"Son, I'm noticing a shift in your

emotions today. Your posture is

different. Your facial expression is

different. Let me give you a

research-based strategy to help you

regulate your anxiety, stress, pressure,

fear." No. It was just there was no it

wasn't even a construct. I mean, I don't

know. But did you grow up with a

a concept of emotion regulation?

>> Definitely

>> you did.

>> And it there was a big gender split

>> in my home. I had the sort of belief uh

based on the context that women could

express their emotions big or small and

that uh men weren't supposed to lose

their temper. Men weren't supposed to uh

be angry.

>> That's interesting. It's kind of counter

the way people think about it nowadays,

right? Like oh yeah, the men are like

the more power you have, the more anger

you can express.

>> Oh, the complete opposite of that. In

fact, and I don't think he'll mind. my

dad's been on this podcast and we have a

great relationship uh now and um and

we've done work and it's been awesome. I

mean it's really it really has. I mean

uh and I remember when I was a kid if he

got angry he he would blink

>> and I and now I know that as like

behavioral suppression you know um he

was like blinking but I can't ever

remember my dad having an outburst ever.

So I just internalized this idea like

okay you you don't have outbursts but I

have a certain side of my family that um

my extended family that's um from New

Jersey.

>> And um where words are sometimes used as

weapons.

>> Okay.

>> And anger is a bit more outward

sometimes at least in that side. And

then I have a South American side where

things are more um you know formal and

boxed away and and I think I

internalized a bit of both. and and um

so I have all sorts of constructs around

who's allowed to express

>> emotions and what extremes but now I

didn't observe a lot of uh anger

>> or maybe a little suppression

>> lots of suppression lots of suppression

>> which is regulation it just

>> not the adaptive kind usually

>> right right and I you know I probably

averaged the two you know in my own life

but in terms of happiness I I think uh

the same thing now that I I think about

it that Um so okay K uh for um women to

be fully expressive and for men to be

you know it's a bit more of the you know

kind of the 1950s model was that was

very present in in my home and in my

mind in my mind. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I can think with happiness as with

any emotion.

>> It's about

the time and the place for happiness.

It's like you can't we have research

that shows that people who strive to be

happy all the time actually are more

miserable because it's hard to live up

to that all the time. You know, people

who strive for more contentment in their

life actually seem to have greater

well-being. Um, and so I just think

again it goes back to these mindsets

around emotions that uh there's no good

or bad emotion.

Anger is fine. Obviously, if it's too

intense and it's lasting too long, it's

probably not going to be good. Happiness

is something that we should, you know,

experience. But, you know, if we're

attached to it, it's going to be

problematic because every day is not a

sunny day. There are rainy days, too.

And you got to be comfortable with the

rainy days. And

the important thing also is not just our

feelings, about our feelings. It's also

about our mindsets around our capacity

to deal with those feelings. like do I

believe I am capable of managing my

anger? Do I believe I'm capable of

dealing with the disappointment? And we

find a distribution of scores for that

too. Like going back to my dad, we have

very different fathers. My father would

say things like, "Son, this is the way I

deal with my anger. You're going to have

to get used to it." You know, I would

say now, like, "Sounds like you got a

fixed mindset, Dad. Like, there are

other options, you know, to to deal with

your anger." But he was sort of like,

"This is the way I am. you're going to

have to deal with it. No learning

interests. Whereas nowadays, I hope to

help people see, wait a minute, is that

emotion working for you in your

relationships or not? If it's not, there

are alternatives.

I

>> mean, we're talking about boys and men

quite a bit already here. So, maybe we

just continue in that in that direction,

even though we will touch on um uh girls

and women and uh emotions as it relates

to them, too. I I hear a lot nowadays

about

problems for boys and young men in

emotion regulation, in defining

masculinity. Um, I'm obviously

interested in this, but I also

acknowledge that I'm Gen X. I was born

in 1975. Things were very different. And

I and I know I have a giant blind spot

to their experience, right? I just do. I

acknowledge that because

I don't really have a finger on the

pulse of of what life is like for a

15year-old or 12year-old or 20-year-old

guy out there. What are the pain points

and what's going right?

>> Yeah, there's a lot going on. And I

think probably the big issue here with

gender is vulnerability.

that historically this is not just now

this is going back to when we were kids

when our parents were kids you know go

back to other periods in you know in the

in time is that vulnerability especially

for men is weak. You got to be tough.

You're the you know the person who has

to you know make the ends meet. You're

the you know the hunter gatherer. And

obviously times have changed. And what

we find is that the thought

today for many boys and men to be

emotional. Firstly, emotional alone has

a connotation of feminine and out of

control. That's just the way people

think about it

>> still.

>> Yes.

>> Really? Wow.

>> When you say don't be so emotional,

>> it's considered to be a negative thing.

It's considered to be feminine and it's

considered to be like a hysterical

um that's why we I like to call it

emotion skills not emotional skills.

That's anyway. So vulnerability is a big

piece of it. Let's this is going to be a

great conversation between two guys. So

what's your relationship to

vulnerability?

>> Totally context dependent.

>> Okay.

>> I mean there are people I'm not afraid

at all to cry in front of. Mhm.

>> There are contacts and people that I

would never cry. I mean, I've cried on

very public broadcast two.

>> Mhm.

>> Maybe three. One here when Martha Beck

came on, she really

>> she uh she wasn't trying, but you know,

it was happening. And then on Steen

Bartlett's podcast, I think perhaps on

another, and it was tough. I mean, it

was I I didn't want to watch those

clips, but

>> I'm glad I did it. Um uh so totally

context dependent.

>> Yeah. And that makes sense. What I'm

really pushing for is like around

emotion and about conver talking about

feelings.

>> And so what we find is that boys

generally feel more inhibited just

saying how they feel especially when it

comes to kind of the sad disappointment,

you know, ashamed emotions. It's much

easier to express the anger, you know,

and the outwardly expressive emotions,

but the deep ones that are

self-conscious, you know, that make you

vulnerable.

um tends to be tough and uh and the

question is why is that the case? What

are your hypothesis? Why would it be

that so many boys feel like they're

going to be perceived as feminine if

they say they're disappointed or sad or

ashamed?

What immediately comes to mind is that

somehow it is linked with the word

incapable or incapability.

>> Exactly. There's an incredible video of

David Gogggins breaking down crying on

stage.

>> Um, and he was celebrated for that.

>> But David Gogggins did a lot of things

beforehand.

>> And no one denies his capability.

>> Yeah.

>> His ability. Uh, so when he cried, it

was like, awesome. He's willing to go to

this really hard place. Yet another

difficult thing that David can do that

most people can't do.

>> And you just go like, awesome. and he's

owning it. And I stepped back from that

and realized we already knew former Navy

Seal went from 300 plus pounds to this

fit individual,

you know, Gogggins, he's a verb, an

adjective and a you know, and a pronoun,

right? So, it's like

>> [ __ ] you know, if someone else just

breaks down on stage, you go,

>> okay, like I hope this guy can make it

in life. That's the the narative

>> it's like weak.

>> You worry sometimes for people like

that. I don't worry about David Gogggins

>> because he's a superstar and we have a

different mindset around him again and

so he has the permission to do whatever

the hell he wants.

>> Yeah, that permission thing, forgive me,

but this this notion of earned the

right. I mean, there are people like

James Cameron who wrote all these movies

and was famous for like doing all these

super difficult things and then a few

years back was like claiming that

testosterone poisoned men and that his

testosterone was the worst thing. And

everyone that liked his movies said,

"Hey, listen, easy for you to say now

you built that career

>> on some of that." So, it wasn't, in my

opinion, taken that seriously. He may

not like it if he hears this, but like

I'm like it's like when our colleagues

are like, "Oh, I'm no longer going to

publish in nature and science. I'm going

to go to these like, you know, these

open source journals." Like you got in

the National Academy on Nature and

Science papers. So like you're not

kidding anybody. Well, that you're

making an important point which is that

once you you know I always find it

interesting with celebrities once they

become super famous I can now disclose

you know I've been depressed or I've

been anxious or I've been overwhelmed

but for some reason you know they didn't

want to take that risk when they were

younger in their careers because again

the perception is like oh anxiety

depression whatever it is that's weak

and so that's the point the point is is

that we raise kids, boys in particular,

to believe that these feminine type

emotions, which are not feminine by

nature, they're just human emotions, are

weak. And therefore, that means I'm

going to be perceived as not only weak,

but potentially homosexual. And that's

also a stigma. And so, what do I do? I

suppress. I deny. I ignore.

Interestingly enough, for women, what

the research shows is that much less

likely to suppress or deny,

much more likely to ruminate.

>> Couple of things. First of all, I I feel

like, and I could be wrong, but I feel

like the the stereotype of uh gay men

being feminine has fallen away somewhat.

You know, I grew up, you know, in the

skateboarding community. There's Brian

Anderson. he was big expose in the not

expose where they exposed him where he

voluntarily you know came out in the New

York Times and he's like he's one of the

most aggressive you know you know

skateboarders out there aggressive in

the skateboarding right so he's big dude

you know so I feel like that stereotype

has kind of shifted a bit where people

assume that there's a range

>> I think that you're ambitious there

>> I think you're right I mean we know

>> so being gay is still [ __ ]

>> yeah for M okay.

>> I mean, if you ask

a hundred people to

uh run like a gay man,

>> they're still caught in the Revenge of

the Nerds.

>> Yeah. They're going to they're going to

show you someone who's, you know, more

feminine or, you know, kind of

stereotypically feminine to be honest

with you. So while there you we know I

mean certainly I remember um when I was

18 I went to a gay bar and I I grew up

in New Jersey. It was very homophobic.

The only gay person I really knew was my

mother's hairdresser who was very

flamboyant and then I went to this gay

bar and I was like oh my god it's like

Wall Street executives here you know

football players. It was a total you

know u shift in my perception.

Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of

people, it's still considered to be, you

know, the mindset is feminine.

>> Got it. Yeah. I guess if you um grew up

training in gyms, which I did, you're

around a lot of like very strong uh

physically strong Yeah.

>> um gay men. They were kind of early to

the gym culture, you know, as a uh so so

maybe my my lens on that is a little

distorted. There's something interesting

around this notion of um [ __ ]

showing emotion and boys and we earlier

we were talking about the movie Stand by

Me movie I absolutely love and it's just

like a perfect story. It's a Stephen

King story, right? Turned into a movie.

Um I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie.

>> Yeah. Um, and what's interesting about

that movie, it's the transition be that

happens right around puberty and between

junior, it's right before junior high

school or oh, it's between junior high

and high school, I can't remember. Some

some transition and the kids are at

different developmental stages. I feel

like this is a big part of it where like

let's say a kid is um a little bit more

emotional, a little more um coddled at

home perhaps. This is I'm making a lot

of assumptions here. and cries in front

of a group of boys when you're in the

seventh or eighth grade. Some of those

boys are are because of their stage of

maturation, they're not really little

kids anymore. They're like, "Dude, what

are you doing?" And then you've mixed

all those kids together and because of

the way that schools and social dynamics

are that can stay with a kid for a long

time like being sort of having an

emotional expression

>> that can stick with you for like

>> two three years of school right so I

feel like some of this stuff comes about

that way which is very different than

like an um just I guess like a

hypothetical scenario uh an adult male

um in the business ice, maybe he's new

at, you know, uh where there's things

tend to uh equalize a bit in terms of

maturational stage. And so these are two

different things, boys crying versus

young men crying versus quote unquote

grown men crying.

>> Again, this is all nurture.

So if you go to schools that do our

work, I just interviewed a bunch of

teenage boys actually, it blow your

mind. They have a whole different

perception of emotion. I I ask him these

questions about men and boys and you

know and their responses are like huh

like what's wrong with crying like

if you feel like crying you cry like are

you sure you know even

>> no no no ridicule

>> no ridicule

>> I said well what if you get into a fight

can you like talk to the kid about what

happened and like tell them how you felt

when they left you out and they're like

of course that's what that's how we grew

up that's but they grew up in a school

that took emotion seriously. They gave

them the skills and the resources to do

it. It reminds me, actually, I never

forget this, you know, since we're on

this topic of boys and men. I was in the

beginning of my career doing training in

emotional regulation in London, outside

of London, a very kind of rough and

tough neighborhood. And uh the head

mistress, as they call it back then of

the school, she looked at me, she's

like, "You know something, Mark? this

program is going to turn the boys into

homosexuals. I'm like, okay, like

where'd that come from? You like I'm

thinking to myself like you need a lot

more training than just emotional

intelligence. But I'll put that aside

for a minute. Anyhow, I said, you know,

I'm here. So, can we just go and do it?

Let me let me demonstrate it. Not a

problem. Go like a fishbowl. Here I am

like the teacher in the middle of the

room. I have like 25 teachers around me

and like 20 kids in the middle. and I

start sharing a story about my life,

whatever it was. I was about probably

feeling discouraged. I think it was one

of when I first got into the martial

arts, you know, it was tough. I was not

a tough boy and I was afraid of my

shadow and I had been had all this

bullying and abuse and going into a

karate studio. It was a big shock for

me. I happened to have an amazing

teacher who transformed my life and

became a career of mine in martial arts.

Anyhow, I told a story about that about

how I failed my yellow bell and I just

hated myself and like not only was I

bullied, but I couldn't even get a

freaking yellow bell, discouraged,

hopeless. And these everybody's looking

at me like, "Where's this going?" And

the teachers, the kids were like glued.

They loved hearing the story. And then I

said, "I'm just curious.

Has anyone else ever felt the way I

felt?"

And I said, "Just raise your hand if

you've had that kind of feeling." Every

freaking kid in the classroom raised

their hand. And of course, I look over

at that head mistress and I'm like, you

know, let's let's talk later.

Kids are dying to express their

emotions. Boys and girls, we had we

we've just socialized it. And the

socialization piece is really important

because even the way fathers talk to

their boy children, you know, is

different. you know, it's the toughen

up. It's da da da. They use more feeling

words with their with girls and with

boys. We're not born that way. We are

socialized into, you know, having these

complicated relationships with certain

emotions. But

it's not something that can't be

modified with good instruction.

>> You're saying this, I'm realizing I

internalized so many things that skew my

perspective on this. I guess I should

say I'm relieved to hear that expression

of emotions among boys is more accepted

now. I think that's

>> the generation that's going through this

work. The kids who are growing up in

places that are not taking emotions

seriously are growing up in a more or

with a more stereotypical way of viewing

it.

>> It's got to be infused into your life.

You got to have these conversations. You

got to be in situations where like in

our work, just to give you an example,

like we're really rigorous about

teaching this stuff. This isn't just

sort of like kumbaya sitting in a

circle. This is like, "All right,

everyone, we've got a problem here.

There's, you know, the gaga pit, which

is in these, you know, this thing in

schools. You know, there's a kid who

nobody is, you know, allowing to

participate. That kid feels awful.

What's our obligation? What are we

supposed to do to handle that? Imagine

you're that kid. Imagine you're the one

that nobody wants to be, you know, part

of the game." Now, we're going to get

into groups and we're going to think

about A, what are the feelings? B, what

are the solutions? What do you do for

yourself? what do you do for the other

person? And it's like rigorous

conversations around the techniques and

they got to roleplay it. And then we ask

questions about the role play. It's

like, well, what if it goes wrong? What

happens if you say this? And they say,

go blank yourself. What do you do then?

And that's the kind of complex,

you know, muscle building we're giving

kids in terms of dealing with emotions.

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subscription. there is a hardwired uh

bias towards rough and tumble play in

males of all of all species including

ours. I think what you're talking about

a little bit is a capacity also for kind

of rough and tumble verbal and emotional

exchange which is not necessarily like f

you and this and that like but some of

that is can be ingested some of it can

be really damaging there's something

interesting that I learned a long time

ago it even in academia he's now dead

but there was a a very famous

neuroscientist I'll never forget like

went to my first Mcnite meeting I was so

like excited to be there and he came

over. He was, you know, he's pretty

large guy and he grabbed me. I grabbed

me and he and he goes, "So, where are

you?" I was picking between laboratories

between this place and that place. He

goes, "Where's it going to where's it

going to be?" And then he kind of gave

me his advice. And then and that was a

very comfortable exchange for me cuz

like I grew up with a lot of physical

interaction. Usually guys not putting

their arm around me and like telling me

like so what's it going to be kind of

thing. But often times, you know, if I

interact with somebody that's kind of

like an old friend or something, there's

they'll grab my shoulder, you know, just

walking by, there's a lot of just kind

of physical interaction that just

happens. It certainly doesn't feel weird

or aversive.

>> And I could see if somebody, for

instance, was not used to like just a

lot of physical interaction uh with

other people that that could feel like a

lot. And so I'm wondering nowadays where

where are things with respect to sort of

just the amount of physical interaction

between kids? Are they like just feeling

and voicing their emotions but they're

like at at a physical distance or are

they uh you know seeing one another and

like handshakes and hugs, what's up and

you know like you know just friendly the

kind of physical banter.

>> I think it's cultural. It's there's a

lot of there's a lot going on there in

terms of you know the type of school and

you know where it is in the United

States or in the world. You know, touch

is a is a cultural thing.

But I think, you know, what I want to

say about what you said is that rough

and tumble is fine. Of course, you know,

rough and tumble, but there's when it

becomes a power over, that's when it

becomes a problem. When you have no

concern for the emotional life of the

other, this is

>> bullying. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. the dialogue that sort of

establishes hierarchy, I guess, is what,

if I'm really blunt about it, I just

feel like that just sort of just

happened naturally in my friend group

when I was a kid. Like there were some

kids who were more developed and more

athletic or better at this or better at

that. And we just kind of all fell into

place. It wasn't necessarily about being

at the apex or being at the bottom.

>> Was intention to harm.

>> Yeah. We we we sort of formed a team

>> where you understood that yeah this kid

was fast and this one was strong and

this one was clever and this one was

creative and actually there was a goofy

kid on our street who was always the

comedian. I think later he actually

tried to become a comedian or became a

comedian and everyone just kind of like

was like all right you didn't expect him

to be like the other kid and you didn't

expect yourself to kind of check off all

boxes. I wonder the extent to which

young males in particular nowadays feel

the need to check off all the boxes of

what it is to be a guy. Play a sport, be

good in school, be, you know, whatever.

>> Well, that's again the developmental

thing. And I think what happens is that

in, you know, you watch kids play in

kindergarten, they're not thinking about

this kind of stuff. Although it's it's

it's seek it's sinking in or it's uh

seeping in. What's the word? Um I was in

a school recently uh and a boy raised

his hand that he was in the blue

quadrant of our mood meter and he was

feeling down or sad and I said is do you

need anything right now? And he said no.

And I got I got kind of like taken by

surprise and I said you know you sure

you we can talk about it. He's like I

don't want to bother you sir.

And that was a eye openener for me, you

know, that already like his emotions

were a nuisance and that's what I want

to make sure that we address. No one's

emotion should be a burden. A kid should

be able to talk about it and deal with

it. We want that kid to be a good

learner. We want that kid to be a good

friend. And if he's already suppressing,

denying, ignoring, you know, in

kindergarten, it's not going to be a

pretty ride. And those things change

developmentally.

Um, kids are much more comfortable

talking to each other about their

feelings in elementary school and middle

school. You know, it starts getting, you

know, I got to look around and again

with the homophobia piece. And in high

school, you see um less and less

touching, you know, or, you know, kind

of the the the kind of friendship kind

of stuff that you might have seen early

on. And that goes back to the, you know,

the things that we were kind of chatting

about toxic masculinity, kind of this

manosphere.

And again, you know, my hope is that we

rethink child development. We have spent

so much time thinking about some of the

unnecessary things. You know, reading

and writing and arithmetic obviously are

important.

But if you don't recognize that how we

feel and how we deal with our feelings

is going to drive,

the quality of your relationships,

your well-being,

your ability to deal with life's ups and

downs and the harsh feedback you're

going to get in life. Um, and

ultimately, you know, having your dreams

come true. You know, it's interesting as

someone who works at a university where

everyone has perfect SAT scores.

Everyone has gradepoint averages that

are better than mine were. Everyone

plays an instrument I never heard of

before. Everyone has done everything to

get into this place. And so I have like

700, 800 students right there. And I

look at them all and I'm like, guess

what?

Your SAT scores have no predictive

validity.

None. You can't remember it's range

restriction. Mhm.

>> It's like b all basketball players are

tall. Height is not going to make or

break your your basketball performance.

Same thing applies in a room filled with

people with, you know, high academic

performance. And then all right, well,

what is the predictor?

Well, obviously it's going to be

something else. And then we start

thinking about, well, what are the

attributes

that employers are looking for?

Right now, it's not technical skills as

much as it used to be. right now it's

like can this person like take feedback

well can this person you know lead a

team and people will want to be around

that person I found in my research for

example that managers and leaders who

are good co-regulators

that for example during the pandemic I

did this longitudinal study and I found

that

in schools in particular where I do a

lot of work that when a teacher

perceived their leader

as both self-regulated

and who is good at co-regulating. So

what that means is that like I'm looking

at you right now. I'm thinking, okay,

you know, it feels like the world's

coming to an end. Are you going to fall

apart or are you going to make it?

That's number one. Number two is are you

going to be there for me? Are you going

to be able to support me and deal with

the chaos that I've got to deal with?

And what we found in our research is

that highly predictive of the culture of

a school, highly predictive of burnout,

highly predictive of job satisfaction,

frustration levels were 40% lower in

schools where there were leaders with

these skills. That's what people are

looking for these days more so than

anything else, you know, more so than

beforehand. I feel like the word that

comes to mind is is calibration. And in

anticipation of today's discussion, I I

I was speaking to a friend and I said,

you know, where are you at with uh kind

of um men expressing emotions, you know,

and and you know, she said, "Well, I've

seen you cry." And I was like, "Yeah,

you know," she said, "It can be

beautiful." Like, you know, there you

hear that, right? It can be beautiful.

And I said, "But when is a man

expressing emotion um a problem for

you?" like and assuming it's not like

outward anger or abuse or you know his

sadness

>> okay was the example I gave

>> and she said if he gets very sad about

things that happen a lot

it makes it hard to imagine that uh how

he would hold it together if really big

stuff happened and so it's it's exactly

what you described in the workplace

right this notion of calibration so uh

let's say I'm okay with people

expressing their emotions

crying when they're sad, etc. But if

that's happening a lot under everyday

conditions, I could imagine, let's say

you're in work or a relationship with

this person, and you think, well,

goodness, like people die, right? You

know, more I'm 50 now. People die as you

get older. More and more people die.

This just kind of the way it works.

>> What's going to happen then? I think

there's this underlying question which

is, are you going to be available for

all the other things we depend on each

other for? And this could be romantic

relationship. It could be in the

workplace. So I I do wonder whether or

not people are trying to work out so

what people are calibrated to like

trying to understand somebody's I don't

want to say emotional set point but when

they're able to you know just pack it

down and deal with it on their own later

or whether it really needs to become the

focus like just to just quickly layer in

another example. I have a friend who

runs a big scientific laboratory. their

laboratory gathered together and did a

presentation for this lab director and

had created a statistical bubble map of

their experience of being in the lab.

And there was a giant bubble in the

middle that just said stress.

And they invited someone from HR. And

the whole idea here was to let the boss

know that they were really stressed out.

And I said, "Let me guess. You were

probably thinking he came up in a very,

very hard branch of science." And I

said, "Let me guess. you're probably

thinking what happened to science he

said he said for a little while and then

I figured well this is the next

generation I have to work with this so

they were calibrated to different set

points and I could imagine that's hard

across generations but even within

generation that's got to be really

really tricky so you're all about

measurement

>> creating actionable tools is there a

language around this is there a way that

we can yes learn to process and deal

with our emotions express our emotions

in a more healthy way. Also,

understanding of other people's emotion

calibration point.

>> A couple of things. One is that going

back to the kind of partner leader

position is

I think the confusion that people have

again going back to vulnerability and

emotion dysregulation is that me being

vulnerable or me sharing that I'm

anxious or overwhelmed or afraid means

that I'm weak. And I think what leaders

need to do is recognize like during the

pandemic, I never forget this, like we

the university shut down. Everything was

freaking out. I knew my team was freaked

out. They were stressed out about their

jobs. They were dealing with being

parents and also being employees and

working from home and all that stuff.

Here I was like the head of the

emotional intelligence lab and like,

"How you doing, Mark?" And I'm like,

"Great. Everything's fine." And

meanwhile, I'm like, "I hate my life and

I hate everybody around me, you you

know, I had this my mother-in-law, you

know, that story, she was stuck with me.

And um and then I realized one day like

I'm being a terrible role model. I'm not

being authentic

and I'm not demonstrating the skill. So,

I decided to be really honest and say,

I'm going to be frank. It's tough right

now, but here's what I'm doing. I'm

going for that walk every day at 5:00. I

can't go to my hot yoga class, but guess

what? I'm I found new workouts online

that I'm doing and I'm doing X Y and Z.

So the point is is that I think

vulnerability that's like sharing and

like you know spewing out all the fears

that you have is not helpful when it's

not accompanied by the strategy.

>> And that's the key is that I'm feeling

this way but here's what I'm doing about

it. That's what a role model is. And

that's what a parent needs to do. The

parent, you know, has to come home and

say, you know, I can imagine this like

you're a dad and you're trying to be a

role model for your kid. And here's my

dad. I My dad would have a hard day at

work. Daddy, let's play. Son, leave me

alone. Done. Like that was the end of

it. As opposed to

dad comes home. Daddy, let's play. son,

you know, you have to realize I have to

just tell you something. I just had a

really rough day at work. I actually got

into a fight with a colleague of mine.

Didn't go well. And I said something

that I really feel bad about. And so,

daddy just needs a little bit of time to

just process that, to just think about

what I can say tomorrow to kind of help

my relationship. And if you don't mind,

I need that time right now. I love you

and we'll play later, but right now I'm

just not in the right space for it.

Okay, son.

Okay, Dad. All right, let's stop there.

What did I just teach my son or daughter

about feelings? All right, I'm a dude.

I'm a dad who has feelings. I am someone

who makes mistakes. I say things that I

regret. I reflect on the things that I

make mistakes about. I problem solve

about the things that I make mistakes

about. I need time to, you know, recoup,

you know, my energy and then I can come

back and be with you. How much time did

that take? seconds.

>> Yeah. But how many of us, you know, are

around people that can process emotion

that way, that have the capacity to say,

"I'm in a dark place. Things didn't go

well. I made a mistake. I feel bad about

it. I need to strategize and then we'll

come back and be together." What happens

to most of us, we're activated like I'm

pissed off at the person at work and I

project it on everybody else that's, you

know, in my next situation. And the

power of emotional self-awareness, going

back to what we started with, and the

power of emotion regulation,

is that I notice that there's a shift. I

notice that I'm feeling this anger, this

frustration. I'm about to go into a new

environment with my family, and I know

because I'm emotionally intelligent that

it's not going to be pretty if I don't

process that emotion before I move into

the next situation. So, what I'm going

to do is I'm going to take a breath. I'm

going to take what I call a meta moment.

I'm going to pause. I'm going to take a

breath. I'm going to think about the

best version of Mark, the father I want

to be, the husband I want to be, and

then I'm going to open the door and

arrive through that lens. That's what

this work is about. That's what

people need to learn.

I'm fascinated by time perception and I

feel like the human brain is so

incredible at being in the moment and

also getting ahead and thinking behind.

And what you're really talking about is

projecting into the future in a healthy

way. Not not future tripping as they

call it, but in a healthy way. And I

think that I mean, broadly speaking, I'm

almost embarrassed to say this as a

neuroscientist, uh, but you know, the

more limbic

>> uh, we are, so to speak. I realize

that's not really a thing, but the more

limbic we are,

>> um, the more in the moment we tend to

be, and it's harder to get that version

of oursel when we're relaxed. It's very

easy to be like well I can remember this

time or I'm going to project into the

future. So to some extent healthy

recognition of one's emotions it seems

healthy expression of one's emotions is

the ability to with feel but also split

off from the presence enough to get

perspective that the time perspective. I

mean it's all in a shift in the time

domain. You're not like I'm going to go

to this you know this island in the

Caribbean for a moment. although that

might be a good useful tactic. But that

ability to tolerate stress and and

segment a piece of one's mind and

emotions and go okay that's all

happening and I'm going to get like

right over here.

>> That is a skill. So the way I like to

think about it is that we have to move

from

automatic habitual unhelpful reactions

to deliberate

conscious helpful responses

because we become more automatic when

we're flooded with our emotions. We rely

more on habits and usually bad habits.

And so to build that space between the

stimulus and response like the question

always people say what is that what do

you do with that space? How long is the

space? I need a Some people say, "I

don't need a meta moment," which is one

of our tools. I need a mega moment, you

know, and maybe you do. Maybe you need

to take three loops around the house

before you walk into the door to get

your kind of parasympathetic nervous

system where it needs to be. That is the

key to emotion regulation right there.

We had um Richie Davidson on the podcast

and he talked about this myth about

meditation that it's supposed to clear

the mind and make you relax and he said

it's it's actually really about stress

tolerance. You're supposed to sit there

and resist the temptation to get up and

move like it's really stress inoculation

which I think is a really beautiful way

of thinking about and different way of

thinking about meditation. So do you

recommend that people meditate in order

to become better emotion regulators?

>> 100%. Especially because

if you can't be still, it's going to be

hard to access the good strategies. It's

a necessary but insufficient strategy. I

know that we're obsessed in our world

right now with breathing and

mindfulness, and it's great. Um, but

it's not enough. You at the end, I'm

going to have to have the difficult

conversation and regulate during that

conversation. I can't be in my room by

myself meditating. I always joked when

my, you know, I open my book with that

story of my mother-in-law and I would

take a breath.

It's even clear why you have to get the

hell out of my house, right? So like the

breath may help you deactivate, but it

doesn't necessarily shift your

perspective.

>> That's the mindfulness work.

>> And I want to jump in now because I

think even the taking the moment to

recognize you need to take this meta

moment is a mindset piece. It's saying

emotion regulation is important. I'll be

a better version of myself if I don't

walk into my house in this angry state

and project it onto everybody else. But

that's we've only gone through one of

like eight domains that I think are

important. The next is like you got to

know what you're feeling because

the feeling as I said in my formula

earlier is going to drive the strategy

selection. So that labeling piece is

really important. And I find that

people's vocabularies is just awful.

People, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm upset.

Yeah. I don't think we did this last

time, but if I were to push you,

anxiety versus fear versus pressure.

>> Oh,

>> versus stress.

>> Uh, I've thought about these before. So,

but it ends up being hairsplitting. And

then I go into scientific operational

definitions. So

uh you know anxiety kind of a a

generalized state of too much

sympathetic arousal you know stress is

one or usually I'd add to that you know

one or several things that I can

pinpoint as kind of a source of that

elevated level of arousal. Um, you know,

panic would be if it you've gotten so

far outside the um time domain

perspective like that

>> the physiology overtakes and overwhelms

like I get into my scientist definition.

That's interesting because

>> a lot of people well some most people by

the way say it's all the same [ __ ]

>> that it's all one big yeah

>> you know you're you know technical

you're like well this is cortisol and

this is you know epinephrine and this is

this and that's all good too but in the

end what you're regulating often times

is the underneath the emotion and so

anxiety

uncertainty around the future right I

get anxious when I can't predict

That's really what deep anxiety is. I

want everything to be exactly the way I

want it to be and I can't control that.

So, oh stress is having too many demands

and not enough resources. Pressure

something at stake is dependent upon

your behavior. Fear is immediate danger.

So when I give you those kind of what we

call in psychology the core relational

themes the appraisals that are part of

those emotions does it make you see how

your strategy choice might be different?

>> Yeah definitely. Um,

and speaking of, you know, I doubt it's

just two bins, but I've heard once that,

you know, some people need to learn to

externalize and or to talk about their

feelings more, other people probably

less. I've heard this.

>> Uhhuh.

>> For sure.

>> I'm I'm friends with a couple and one of

them says uh she's she calls herself an

external processor. So, if something's

bothering her, she has to externally

process. And her wife is an internal

processor. And

>> so this obviously they've worked this

out and it's pretty cool to see how they

do it. But but I was like, is that

really a thing? External processor,

internal processor. And then of course

my gender biases show up. I go, well,

you're two women, so like that maybe

that language is used, but like in in

heterosexual relationships, it's

different, you know. And we laughed

about it and they explained like no, cuz

actually one of them turns out to be a

therapist. So she like no, she has many

male female couple clients. So she's a

couple's therapist. So, I got flipped on

my back with that one. The thing that I

I find that I I keep projecting into

everything I'm hearing. And and

>> I want to put the little asterisk here

and say that

>> the reason I share these like things

that are happening inside is I like to

think they're perhaps a proxy for what

some people are thinking

>> um or not.

>> But is that we really, at least in the

United States, we really are not a

culture that's clearly defined. its

terms, let alone its ways of being

around emotions.

>> Like this is not like my dad growing up

in Argentina in a certain era where sure

there was a range but um the culture was

fairly clearly defined. I mean here

we've got it all like I do

>> men expressing anger some people call

that passionate depending on what it's

about. Other people call that scary and

disregulated.

>> It goes back to your relationship with

anger. And so, you know, we construct

these emotions in our brains based on

our experiences. So, I grew up with a

dad who had, you know, you know, pressed

lips and red face and looked like he was

going to like take his belt off and

whack me. And so, my

perception of anger is probably

different than your perception based on

our upbringing. And that's just we have

to acknowledge that. Now, I could be

over reacting to anger, which is not

going to be helpful in my life. So, I've

got to learn to realize not everybody's

like your dad. Some people can be angry

and not aggressive. But that's that's

the emotional intelligence journey of

learning. If I had no cultivating of

skills, I would just assume

that's anger.

>> And that's not anger. That's one way of

expressing anger that I learned. And I

think people get caught up in that. They

get attached to what they learned early

in life and don't realize there's a

there's another way. It's kind of why

people often times get stuck with trauma

because they they are fixated on that

experience that they had and they

haven't learned how to reframe or

haven't learned how to compartmentalize

that particular experience in their

lives.

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to cla sample pack. So thus far we've

highlighted at least one thing that can

be very useful um for emotion regulation

which is the you know some short form of

meditation for stress tolerance that can

give somebody a a create a gap or an

opportunity in a moment to at least take

some time and regulate a bit. Mhm.

>> I'd like to layer on something else

which I'm hearing. I don't want to put

words in your mouth, but that I'm

hearing which is we should all

know our assumptions or our presumptions

based on our upbringing.

>> Correct?

>> Like we need to do this for ourselves.

No one can do it for us. No single

article is going to spell out the full

array of ways that one conceptualizes

anger or sadness for men, for women, for

straight people, for gay people. But

this space is actually worth thinking

about, right? Uh right now there's a

there's a little bit of a battle against

introspection. This is not

introspection. I want to be very clear.

Um that's a separate matter. But this is

really just what any really good

scientist would do is to know your

assumptions before you generate a

hypothesis.

>> I mean it is introspection. I mean

>> Okay, fair.

>> But just like anything,

over introspection leads to rumination.

>> Mhm. And so we're not recommending like

I don't want you Andrew to like be

obsessively compulsively checking in

with how you're feeling all day long.

That is unhelpful. It's bad bad bad.

>> Some people would say that's I need to

do more of that.

>> Maybe you do.

>> I I I don't I don't think so.

>> Emotions matter when they're going to

either help or interfere with our

performance.

>> That's when we have to check in. Most of

the time, thank goodness, they're in the

background.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, when you're driving, you know,

you're not thinking, "How am I feeling?

How am I feeling? It would be weird.

Like that would just be weird and you

don't want to do that.

>> But checking in with one's assumptions

based on our upbringing, I think would

be very useful.

>> Very. But that's the point.

>> And has that been formalized into a you

know, people love questionnaires. I I

think if it hasn't been done, I think it

would be amazing. About eight months

ago, I had this wild experience where I

realized I had this massive assumption

worked into my framework. So, I had

these friends and I was visiting them

and they called me upstairs and there

was a bird flying around and it was like

flying into the windows

>> and I was like, "Oh my god." You know, I

had birds growing up. Kiwi and Sugar Ray

Leonard were like my life before I hit

puberty and birds were my life. You

know, I loved birds. I love animals of

all kinds. And I I was looking up there

and this bird's just flying into the

window. It's not going to make it out

and it's just doing immense damage to

itself. And one of them said, you know,

he keeps flying against the window. I

was like, okay. And I tried to get him

out and I I couldn't get him out. Really

high ceilings. We didn't have the right

thing. And I said, you know, I'm just

going to open the windows, go

downstairs, come back, and check. And I

ended up going back. And um they said,

"What is he okay? Is he okay?" And I'm

like, "No." I'm like, "This idiot bird

is like flying into the window. He's

like, "This [ __ ] is going to kill

himself."

>> He got out eventually. And about two

weeks later, one of them called me and

said, "Listen, I really need to talk to

you about something. It's really been on

my mind." I was like, "Okay." And uh and

she said, "You know, I was really

disturbed how you reacted."

>> Uhhuh. I

>> like what do you mean? I was like I was

like trying to help the bird. Like, you

know, I love animals. I mean, I really

do. I mean, one of the reasons I like

doing the work I do now and said what I

used to do is I don't have to work on

animals anymore. I hated it honestly.

And you know, I understand why it has to

be done in many cases, but I hated it.

So she said, "Well, just you're talking

to this bird like he's an idiot." And I

realized in that moment I was like, "Oh

shit." I was like, "If you had said,

"Oh, that poor girl. She's she's flying

against the window. I've been like, "Oh,

the poor thing. Like, she really needs

it." You know, and I immediately

realized this like strong

>> sex gender bias that I had that if it

that if a female animal is somehow

damaging herself, like, "Oh my god, help

her, save her." And with with him, same.

If it's a boy, same thing. I want to

help. But then my my assumption is you

idiot. Like you idiot. Like like I

would, you know, and I realize I grew up

in a big pack of dudes and someone does

something stupid. You're like, dude,

you're an idiot. Like what are you

doing? But it's a it was actually to me

it was a it was a mode of affection. I'm

sure I I upset some people by saying

this. But

>> in full disclosure, I just had this

massive assumption and I've actually had

to pay attention to that going forward,

but I didn't realize I had that really

strong bias. Again, this is all going to

that mindset area of emotion regulation.

I mean, parents have that with their

kids. I can't tell you how many kids,

you observe a parent with their son or

daughter, doesn't it matter, and the kid

is trying to um like climb a rock and

the parent because of their own fears,

you know, oh my god, honey, be careful,

be careful, be careful. And all of a

sudden, the kid is losing their

self-confidence to climb the thing. as

opposed to a parent who's skillful, you

know, who checks their assumptions. You

know, I'm nervous. Okay, fine. You're

nervous. You know, you're probably your

kid's probably not going to get hurt.

Take a bre take a breath and maybe say

something like, "Honey, gosh, that looks

like it's really hard. I'm pretty

confident you're going to get there. Let

me just come a little closer to be there

just in case something goes wrong, but I

really do think you're going to make

it."

>> What do you think that's instilling on

the kid? totally different way of

thinking about it.

>> And so that parents assumption and that

person parents fears is being projected.

If they were more skilled at

co-regulating and recognizing my job is

to instill resilience in my kid. My job

is to help my kid feel like they can do

it on their own because that's what this

work on co-regulation I'm doing which I

think is so important is this

intentional. You're being super

intentional about supporting other

people and managing their emotions. But

the the whole goal of it is to support

the other person in being capable of

regulating on their own eventually.

>> Not codependent, not coddling, but

actually instilling the belief in the

other person that they can do it. I love

that. I I guess what I'd love to know is

is there a formal process

or questionnaire, etc. to learning to

understand one's own kind of the word

bias is so loaded the word bias is

biased but to really parse like oh this

is how I conceive the world in and

around emotions gender gender specific

emotions because I think that' just be

very useful because then it allows

somebody to do what you just described

and really know the difference between

helping somebody get to the point where

they can manage their

>> work with their emotions on their own

>> versus projecting our own beliefs

around, hey, this is the way it's

supposed to be done.

>> Exactly. Yes. There are plenty of

surveys actually in my book. I even give

people a list of them. You can play

around with that and just look at your

mindsets and attitudes about them and

you'll see patterns. I had no cognitive

awareness that I had this weird

relationship to happiness until I did my

own exercise. And it was eye opening for

me. And it's actually I've set goals for

myself. It's like Mark, people want when

they're applauding you when you're

giving your speech, let them enjoy it.

They're if they're applauding, it means

it was good. Don't be like, you know,

like breathe, be present, and take it

in. And actually, it works. It's a