It's a mental game and when you see your

counterpart smashing up headphones and

landing at cameras, you know that you've

got to

Christian her, the team boss of the

world championship winning team, Red

Bull Racing.

You came into Red Bull when it wasn't

doing great.

When I came into the sport, I was the

youngest team principal in Formula 1. I

still am to this day, ironically. And I

don't have any formal qualifications bar

a couple of A levels. I wanted to make

sure that we were the team on the upward

graft and think, okay, how can we turn

into fertilizer?

You can lose championships as we've

seen.

Yeah.

In seconds.

It felt like it was slipping away and

then suddenly

it was insane. If somebody came up with

a script and said that's the way this

season's going to pan out, nobody would

have believed it.

All that press scrutiny.

Formula 1 is a very glamorous world from

the outside looking in. It can be a

lonely place at at times.

Have you ever had moments of anxiety?

Yeah. It sort of crept up on me without,

you know, recognizing it.

Same.

And it's just your body telling you

that, you know, there's a lot going on

here. And uh for me, you know, I've had

enough.

When you look at your competition, which

has been Mercedes?

Yes. Why do you think your team will

win?

I think that

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[Music]

Christian, there's a slight pun, I

guess, to this opening question, but um

as I look back into your early years and

as you look back in hindsight and sort

of self assess,

what drives you?

What drives me? I'm naturally a

competitive person and uh you know, I've

always, you know, enjoyed competition.

I've always enjoyed working, you know,

within a team of people and uh and

winning. you know, winning. There's just

no no feeling like it in uh uh you know,

whether it's achieving a checkered flag

first or sealing a deal to get on a car.

Um you know, that's always what's what's

driven me has always been about the

competition.

In our earliest years, I I think, you

know, this psychology shows that we're

we're formed most definitively by the

things that happen, the context we're

grown up in, older brothers, you know,

the parenting. when you look back and

connect those dots, is there anything

else there that um is important context

to who you are today?

Well, I'm the middle child of of three.

So, my older brother was was the the

sensible one of of the three of of the

three boys. Um and then my younger

brother was more outrageous, I would

say. And and the middle child is always

that slightly awkward one. Um you know,

particularly within within three. So,

um, you know, I wasn't I didn't excel at

school. I wasn't that interested in

school. School for me was almost like a

a social thing, but I enjoyed sport and

I enjoyed team sport at at at school.

So, where my older brother was quite

academic, he was he was crap at sport.

Um, whereas, you know, I played in the

football team or the cricket team or or

whatever was whatever was going. And um

you know I I just enjoyed that. And uh I

think that you know being a being a

middle child um you're always slightly

different. The the the younger ones

always ends up being the spoiled one.

The older one's a sensible one and the

the middle one tends to be in his own

lane for certainly from the the middle

children that I've met.

What did you think you were going to be

when you grew up?

I wanted to be evil conval. You know I

wanted to be a stunt man. Um and then

there was a program um the full guy with

Lee Majors in it who drove around in a

big truck and and so on and I you was a

stunt man and I thought that was super

cool. So I was always fascinated by cars

and speed and and so on. So that

attracted me to um you know just just

the world of of of engines. And from a

very early age uh from about 12 you I

was pestering and pestering my mom

because I knew my father wouldn't uh

wouldn't buy me one to get to buy a

motorized go-kart. And I saved up what I

had. And then for my 12th birthday um we

found this thing in the back of a uh a

newspaper, this secondhand uh sort of

20-year-old go-kart. and it was too low

to drive around a farm or on on the

grass. So, we found a track and suddenly

I discovered this you could race these

things and and suddenly that wetted my

appetite at a very young age. Um, and

you know, Nigel Manel at the time was a

complete hero of mine. I was starting to

get into into Formula 1. So from a very

early age, you know, I became almost

obsessive about wanting to be a a racing

driver to the point that I didn't want

to grow any taller. I got, you know, to

5'7 and thought, "Yeah, you I don't want

to grow any any any taller." I was

almost willing myself to um to to be

short. So So uh because all races

drivers tended to be sort of pintsized

during that that that time. So for me,

that was my dream. I could just

visualize myself being a being a racing

driver and that's you know everything

else became secondary at that point.

What influence did your your mother and

father have separately on you?

They had they had a huge influence on me

both in in in in different ways. My

father worked in the automotive

industry. So he shared a passion for for

cars and engines and and um motor

racing. you know, he was uh he done some

marshalling in his youth and always

liked being around around cars. He

always had, you know, nice cars and and

uh working in that industry. Um yeah, he

was hugely hugely knowledgeable. My

mother, you know, my mother would would

always encourage us to follow our dreams

and she'd always push us as as as

children, never to accept,

you know, just being uh,

you know, run-of-the-mill, always push

yourself, always extend yourself. Um,

and so she had an awful lot of drive,

you know, in her. And so it was a

combination, you know, of the of the

two. So once I discovered this world of

of motor racing at the around the age of

age of 12, you know, my father and I

were able to then, you know, we spent

quite a lot of time together, you know,

traveling the country and then racing

internationally and then into car racing

and so on. And it was a it was a great

thing to be able to, you know, to share

with him. And he, you know, he made a

lot of sacrifices to help me in in my

career. Um, my brothers both had the

chance to to have a go at racing.

neither of them were were, you know,

were interested. Um, and so we spent a

lot of time going up and down the

country to different cart races. My mom

would pack a, you know, pack all the

sandwiches up and, you know, it became a

family thing. Um, going to these

different racing events.

I'm really intrigued by that winning

streak in people and that

competitiveness because not everybody,

and you would have seen this in the

drivers and the people you've worked

with, not everybody has that. They don't

have that like competitive tenacity

where they ju they just have to win.

Yeah.

Where does where does that come from in

you? Have you figured that out? Is it

something which has built over time? Was

there always a bit of a glimmer of that

winning at all costs or

I think it's something that's in in your

DNA. And look, I've got I'm one of three

uh boys in in our family and I'm very

different to my to my brothers and um

you know, I've got the same parents. Uh,

but we're all very different and I think

you either have it, you know, or you or

you don't. And uh, you know, I I always

had this inner drive and and desire. Um,

there was purely focused around, you

know, motor racing. I didn't vis en

envisage myself being a tennis player

or, you know, anything else. I just

wanted to to to race. I just wanted to

compete. And I would watch hours and

hours of video footage on VHS tapes of

old races and Grand Pris and, you know,

study the minutest of details of, you

know, what racing boots Nigel Manel was

wearing or or you you know, you totally

engross yourself in all aspects of it.

And uh and I think visualization is a

big thing as well. So I think if you if

you visualize something and you really

want it, I've found in certainly in my

life that you know that's that's

absolutely achievable because you set

you're setting yourself a target. You're

setting yourself a goal and and that's

what you got to shoot for.

There's a lot of talk around around

visualization. And I think there was a

book that came out called the secret

which um somewhat painted visualization

as a

uh supernatural force in the world that

kind of conspires to give you what you

want. When you talk about visualization,

do you see it as a supernatural force or

do you see it as much more of a

practical satellite navigation of

I think I think you could see it as both

in many respects. uh uh you know, I'm

probably more practical in my in my

thinking, so I'm not engaged with the

supernatural. Uh but but yeah, I'm a

great believer that if you visualize

something, if you see yourself being on

that podium and you believe in it and

you want it and you really strive for

it, you can you can achieve it. And I

didn't achieve it as a driver, but I

went on to achieve it as a uh you know,

as a team principal. and um uh you know

and whether that's winning a Grand Prix

or winning a world championship

um winning a constructor's world

championship it's it's having that

belief have never losing sight of that

that goal because that's what takes you

through the you know the tough days the

difficult days um when everything seems

to be conspiring against you that you've

got to keep believing in that target and

visualizing that that target um And I

would say by and large during my career

that's that's that's come true.

You you talked about your kind of

obsessive um focus on the details. Even

looking at a very young age looking at

these cassettes and seeing what boots

they were wearing.

That obsession as well that that

obsession on the smallest of details.

How has that played a role in everything

that happened throughout the the next

couple of decades of your life?

I think it's it's just a question of

leaving no stone unturned. just always

pursuing all the incremental areas

because they all they all add up and

it's all about attention to details and

sometimes it's the smallest things that

can make the largest of difference and

you you collectively add all of those

elements together

um and they add up at the end of the

day. So um you know particularly in the

business that I'm operating in in

Formula 1, it is all about the detail.

It is all about leaving no stone

unturned, about pushing the boundaries,

about extracting every ounce of

performance out of these amazing

machines, which ultimately um it's the

people that drive that. And so it's

therefore creating a culture that

empowers that that um uh that essence of

of it never being enough, always

striving to achieve more. And uh and

then it's almost the fear of failure.

that uh that drives you on because once

you've sampled and you've tasted

success, it becomes addictive like a

drug and and you just want to experience

it again and you know have that have

that winning feeling.

It's interesting. So let's start with

the culture piece then with the team. So

you said it's about creating that

culture, a culture where every detail

matters in a practical way. There'll be

loads of people listening to this

podcast now that are building projects

or businesses or they might have a dance

class, whatever they're doing. um how do

they practically

make those around them really appreciate

the small stuff?

Well, I think you have to lead by

example and I think that uh you know

it's all about um uh

you know just continually looking to to

improve to be better. So for example the

races that we win you know you can

always learn it's never ever enough. Um,

you know, the last race we won in in

Monza, could we have done a better job

on the strategy? Could we have been

quicker in the pit stop? Um, could we

have had a better start? Was our

preparation in the leadup to the race,

you know, good enough? Did we focus

enough attention in the practice

sessions on the things that that turned

out to be important in in the Grand

Prix? So being selfanalytical and is is

a key aspect of driving of driving

performance and never being satisfied

saying yeah no that was good enough

because it it never is. There's always

something that you can learn that you

can uh that you can improve and that you

can build on as you're building this

database of continual knowledge.

Does that change how you choose people

to join the team? Are you looking for

people that have a predisposition to

care about the small stuff or that have

are detail orientated?

Well, I think you need uh you know

within a team you need different

strengths for different roles. And so

when you within Formula 1, you've got

obviously the design side of the of of

the business, the creative side of the

business. You've got the operational

side where you got to manufacture these

these incredible cars and then operate

them cost effectively at 22 Grand Pris

around around the globe. And so you need

need different people for different

roles, but it's all having that

commonality of which is the car, which

is, you know, these two amazing machines

that we have to turn out at these 22

races a year and to operate at their at

their optimum. And that is the focal

point, you know, that everybody's uh,

you know, vested interest is is involved

in. So you've got to have uh, you know,

an eclectic mix of people that that

create a team. But so long as the goal

that everybody is reaching for and

striving for is the same,

you know, you're going to have a a

myriad of different personalities. I

mean, we're we're circus sort of 7 to

800 people uh you know, in our team.

Plus then on top of that, we've got an

engine group that we're we're building

as well. to over a thousand people on

one campus in Milton Kees and uh of

course you're going to get a vast range

of of personalities and characters but

the one thing in common is it's all

about the car. It's all about performing

on the track.

How does one keep how is that 22

different departments as well?

Yeah. So it's a 22 different departments

across across the business and it for me

um it's about getting the right people

in the right roles and empowering them

to do their job so that they've got

clear you know objectives clear targets

that they've that they're you know that

they're shooting for and then backing

them. So I see a lot of my role is to

ensure that they've got the support

around them, they've got the tools

around them, that uh that they're

defended when they need defending um and

that they're guided when they need that

that when they need guidance. And I

think that there's no point you I'm not

an aerodynamicist or an engineer or I

don't have any formal, you know,

qualifications bar a couple of A levels.

Um so I'm not a specialist in any any

one area. So my role is to ensure that

I'm putting the right people in the

right roles and getting them

collectively to work together.

Feel like that is the that is the

ultimate goal of business. It's funny

because as as entrepreneurs sometimes we

think that we should be good at

everything or that we should um we

should know how to do every job better

than the person you know within within

that team. But what you said there I

think is was very very very true in the

sense of it's finding the right people

and binding them with a culture that

gets the best out of them which is not

an easy thing to do.

It's not because you know there's

a lot of pride people have egos as as

well but I think it's accepting where

your strengths and where your weaknesses

are. And I think that that uh not

everybody can be a phenomenal

aerodynamicist or a you know engineer or

a chassis designer or uh you know a

number one mechanic. Um and it's a

matter of identifying you know the right

people for the right roles and then and

empowering them to get on their job.

There's no point me employing Adrien Nui

as, you know, probably the best

aerodynamicist in the in the history of

the sport and then telling him, you

know, how to do his job or telling Max

Fappen how to how to drive a car. You

know, you can point out things that

you're seeing. Um and and and you can uh

you know offer some some guidance but in

terms of it's down to them in their

specialist areas to you know to to

operate and you try and give them the

right tools and the right environment

that enables them to flourish and

succeed.

Have you had instances in your career

where you've hired a very talented

And what I mean by that is

someone who's so good at their job but

ego personality something has just

well Formula 1 attracts them and um and

egos and are not too far apart

sometimes. Um, so but you know you

there's no I in team and I think that

you quickly you see um if you have a

talented individual that isn't working

in a team environment they quickly

become isolated

um and they either change their way and

and embrace the team or they end up

falling by the wayside and not achieving

their you know their potential because

it's too bigger sport to be um you know

an individualist in in it. You need to

rely and trust in the other people

around you and the other departments

around you to be able to fulfill your

your part.

Much of much of management um I think

starts with knowing how to manage

yourself because if you if you don't

manage yourself successfully then you

can be a pretty awful manager.

Yeah. How how you talked about the self

analys self analyzing the team after

races, but do you self analyze yourself?

Yeah, of course. I mean, you're always

thinking, you know, what what could I do

better? You know, how could I how could

I perform better as a CEO or as a team

principal? Um, did I handle that

situation correctly? Could, you know, is

there another way that we could have

addressed that? And I think that what

I've learned over time is that I used

to, you know, when I first came into the

sport, I'd worry about almost

everything. And I quickly came to the

conclusion, well, there's no point in

worrying about everything. Worry about

the things you can control, the things

that you can't control.

Don't let them take your energy. Don't

let them take your, you know, your your

focus or distract you. focus on the

things that that you're empowered that

to make a difference in. Um, and then I

just I I'm able to I was able to become

more disciplined with my time and

implying my time more uh more

effectively than being spread too thin.

Emotional control. In sports, it's very

passionate.

Yeah,

there's a fine line, isn't there? From

what I've observed with some of the

great, you know, managers in the world

like Sir Alex Ferguson and football

stars and between like the passion and

letting the passion get out of hand.

Yeah, absolutely.

Anger and, you know, how do you balance

that and is it a balancing act?

Well, I think I think the Brits are

quite good at that, you know, keeping a

stiff upper lip and, you know, head

down, get on with it. And for me,

you know, last year's World Championship

was very much about that. And um you you

could see I mean it was a titanic battle

not just between the two drivers on

track but by you know the two teams off

track and the person you're gauging

yourself uh and you're pitched against

as a team principal is is your opposite

number and it's a mental game as much as

a a physical uh activity as well. And of

course it was the first time that that

that team in the seven eight year period

had come under under any form of

pressure. And I think you see people's

true personalities and what they've

really got when they're under pressure.

So, of course, you know, when you see

your counterpart smashing up headphones

and pointing and ranting at cameras, you

know that you've got to them because

then you know that if they're venting in

such a way and they're feeling that

pressure that the people beneath them

are going to be offloaded onto as well,

that they're going to be on the

receiving end of that. And that, in my

opinion, or in my experience, it caused

people to tighten up. Um, and I remember

before the race in Abu Dhabi getting all

the guys together and saying, "Look,

whatever happens today is going to

happen." Um, you know, all we can do is

do the best that we can do today. And

the most important thing is, you know,

be proud of what you've achieved to get

us to this position that we're fighting

for this world championship. You know,

that we've taken it all the way down to

the wire. And most of all, enjoy it. you

know, enjoy this experience. Whatever

whatever the outcome's going to be, we

don't know, but just let's go in there

with an approach of give it everything

and enjoy it and embrace it. And in the

end, you know, it paid off. And I think

that as a leader, how you conduct

yourself

permeates throughout a business. So if

if you're feeling the tension and you're

passing that on, then for me that's not

a healthy

way to lead a team by fear. Um you want

it to be inclusive. You want it to be

open. You want people to be able to feel

that they can

that they've got a voice and that voice

will be, you know, will be heard rather

than being afraid to speak up for fear

of getting their, you know, their head

taken off. you came into Red Bull when

um it it wasn't doing great as a team

and over the the next five, six, six

years, you really turned that ship

around.

from the outside. I mean, people might

see that as quite a simple thing, but I

was reading about how you

um you'd you'd come to work on your

first day of work, the consultants had

flown over and fired the previous

management team, which is always causes

a little bit of

unease, shall I say,

and then they fly out and leave you

there. And then from there, you've got

450 people in this team that's kind of

dysfunctional. It's not it's not

reaching its potential.

Tell me because there's a lot of I

always think about going into companies

where there's an existing culture and

how you unpick it and turn it around.

Tell me how you did that at Red Bull.

Well, that first day I arrived, I

remember um arriving in uh in the office

with a a secretary that was in tears cuz

her previous boss had been just fired.

Um there was unopened Christmas cards on

the desk, a half drunk cup of coffee,

and okay. and a fairly disgruntled

workforce that had been through a

revolving door of management changes

whilst the team had been uh you know

owned by Jaguar. So um it's like okay

how am I you know what's my game plan

here and my my plan was engage with the

people understand

what are the issues listen you spend you

know the next few months just listening

and form your own picture and so

you know that's what I did over the

first couple of months I spent time

walking around the factory engaging with

people listening

And then the picture started to come

clear that you know there were pockets

within the team that that you know there

was real capability and and talent but

it was just clear that they weren't

working collectively. There was this

blame culture within the business where

the drawing office blamed Arrow Arrow

blamed the wind tunnel. Um you know R&D

blamed production the race team were

blamed everybody. Um and there was just

this blame culture that there was no

accountability or collective you know

responsibility. So it was then a

question of okay how do we unpick that

and how do we create the glue to bring

this this together. And for me what was

really needed was was technical

direction. Um and I thought well look

I'm going to go after the best in the

business. Um and that was Adrienne.

Adrienne had had a incredible career at

Williams and McLaren. Um, and you know,

there'd been,

you know, a couple of years where

McLaren hadn't been delivering at its uh

at its potential and you could see that

business was changing and it just felt

like there was a window of opportunity.

So,

uh, you know, I'm made sure I got to,

uh, to meet Adrian and I built up a

relationship with him and, uh, his then

wife and then managed to convince him to

come and join the team. Um, and that was

a litmus moment because then suddenly

people woke up and said, "Wow, if Adrian

New is prepared to come here, he must

see something that he he believes in."

Um, and uh, you know, we set off set off

from there. And that then, you know, you

know, galvanized the technical care

because Adrian's the most single-minded,

you know, engineer I've ever uh, ever

come across. Um, and you know, that that

galvanized the team because it was,

well, if Adrian says that's the

direction we're going, technically,

that's that's the way we're going. And

um it then put a sense of purpose into

the design office and that enabled me to

attract more talent to supplement what

was there to weed out the few bits that

needed tidying up. But the core basis of

the team

hadn't really changed from what had been

underachieving at Jaguar. We just put in

clear leadership into a into a structure

and started to instill a culture of it's

not just about having the seventh

biggest budget which means you're going

to finish seventh. It's a question of

okay, what can we do? How can we push

the boundaries? How can we be more in

innovative? How can we take the fight to

the guys at the front? Because we're not

prepared to settle, you know, being

seventh. We want to win. how how what is

the fastest route to getting uh into a

winning position?

Okay, so I've got three questions there

that came to mind. The first one was

about single-mindedness

in in business and in leadership.

Sometimes single-mindedness is seen as

being undemocratic and like I think

there's sometimes people think that

organizations are supposed to be like

democratic where everyone gets a vote

and then we decide which direction we're

going in based on the vote. But you've

highlighted single-mindedness in that

instance as being a real unifier and a

real motivator.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And look, you

know, of obviously you want to listen

and you want to gauge, but at the end of

the day, somebody's got to make a

decision. Sometimes that might not be

the most popular of decisions, but the

most important thing is to make a

decision to say this is the direction

that we're going in. And the most

important thing with that once you've

committed to a decision to make sure

that you give it your best shot. But if

it's not working

to recognize that it's not working and

not be afraid to change to stick your

hand up say okay we got it wrong let's

go another route because the worst thing

is just repeating the same mistake after

mistake you know after mistake and I

think you know good leadership um is

strong leadership where

you know people want to know what is the

direction what is the objective why are

we doing this um what are are we pushing

for? What are we striving for? Um and uh

you know it's about taking people on

that on that journey but uh about having

you know very clear goals and objectives

that that taking them on the journey

with you that I guess that's a job of

inspiration and communication.

How how how important is that when

you're trying to get 450 people to come

along with you? really making sure

you've nailed down communication and I

guess inspiring communication and how

has Red Bull done that?

I think Red Bull um you know as a

business a phenomenal business that have

uh you know it's a maverick brand. It's

it's pushed the boundaries and

everything that it does. It's it's a

lifestyle brand. It's um it's always

been edgy, you know, with the extreme

sports that they've been involved in and

and so I'm a bit of a you very much a

maverick. And I think taking that DNA

and,

you know, implementing it within a

Formula 1 team has been, you know,

incredibly effective. And uh what's

enabled us to be dynamic is that we've

had the full support you know of the of

the chairman you know of Dietrich

Matashitz who you has been passionate

about this uh this activity and he's

you know unwaveringly you know backed us

and there were difficult days where

you know things came you came under

scrutiny but he gave the time

um and the stability within and allowed

the stability within the BIS business

for us to really cultivate, you know, a

winning machine and with the key people

in the right in in the right positions.

and uh uh you know he's been phenomenal

in the support that he's shown us and

the and the freedom that he's enabled us

to have to operate effectively,

efficiently, quickly and sharply without

being bogged down by the process of a uh

you know a corporate entity. Um, so

we've kept that agility

and even though the company has grown to

three times the size that uh when when

Red Bull came into the sport is maintain

that racing spirit that that ability to

make quick decisions whether it's on a

driver or sponsor or a uh a member of

staff or a you know whatever it may be.

We've had that dynamic ability to move

and and adapt quickly. It's so

important. I I spend so long, you know,

I spent 10 years working with CEOs and

founders on their marketing and I'd see

time and time again how really the cost

wasn't being wrong, it was being slow.

So it was taking 9 months to find out

you were wrong versus the team over here

that would spend. So if we were pitching

an idea, we pitch it to two companies at

the same time. Say one of them would

take nine months to find out that the

idea was bad.

The other one would take one week to

find out it was bad and they'd be on to

the next one. and that and people don't

think of like the design of the very top

of the organization, the relationship

the CEO has with the chairman and no

like stifling board in the way is such a

huge competitive advantage over time.

Absolutely. And I think you know

recently we've had exactly that dilemma

where you know we had the opportunity to

work you know with an OEM taking a

significant shareholding in the team but

I think it was recognized that hang on

that that DNA will be affected

um if we cannot continue to operate

exactly in the manner that's made us

successful with that ability to make

quickfire decisions um without having to

go through layers and layers of you know

process and and bureaucr democracy.

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Back to the podcast. You talked about

innovation being both at the heart of

the Red Bull brand, but also um it being

a big component of what you brought to

Red Bull to make it a winning machine.

How did the Red Bull team innovate

versus other incumbents?

I think we grabbed the regulations. So,

initially it was about building and and

making sure that we got the right tools.

So, from 2005 when Red came into the

sport for the first four years was

about, you know, recruiting Adrian,

getting some other key people around

him, making sure that we got the right

simulation tools and our wind tunnel was

delivering reliable results. And then a

big regulation change came for the 2009

season, which felt like a a clean sheet

of paper for this group to really, you

know, grab hold of. And um it was a big

regulation change at the at the time.

And you know we got it we got it right

or mainly right um because there was

contention with the governing body about

something called a double diffuser which

um certain teams had and others didn't.

But it got caught up in the politics

between the governing body and the

commercial rights holder and the teams

who were all arguing for a bigger share.

We sort of got caught in the crossfire

of that, you know, when it was really

about Ferrari and and the FIA and had

nothing to do with Red Bull, but we come

up with a competitive car. Um, and then

suddenly,

you know, we were able to start

competing and start winning and we were

making mistakes, but we were we were

fast, we were challenging, we were

winning races. and we lost out on that

championship at the end of the year to

Jensen Button and and and Ross Brawn

because we'd had a weak start um due to

these this regulation uh discrepancy. Um

but then from you know 2010 we took that

momentum into that year and we were

still a little rough around the edges

but we managed to you know basically

polish ourselves enough that we came out

with both championships at the end of

2010 11. Then we went on and and was a

totally dominant year and then a big

regulation came for 12. we had to adopt

to that and won it at the final race in

in Brazil against Fernando Alonzo and

then stability into 2013 saw another

dominant year um for the team and then

obviously then it was a complete reset

because when 2014 came along all of the

engine regulations changed to this V6

hybrid and we were completely out of

bed. the engine that we had was nowhere

near the competitiveness of uh certainly

that Mercedes had come up with and

suddenly you go from being serial

winners to turning up at a race and not

having a chance of success and that was

that was tough to keep the hearts and

minds of the people um having been used

to winning to suddenly turning up and

you know if we're lucky we we won three

races that year that were all

opportunistic but you you know, in terms

of competing for a championship, no

chance.

How do you do that? How do you keep

their hearts and minds motivated,

focused?

I think you you you identify again the

area that's that's causing the weakness

and look to address it. Um, and focus on

the bits that you can control. So, the

engine we couldn't control that was from

a third party, you know, supplier. We

could put pressure on them. we could we

could try and uh assist them with tools

that we had, but all we could do is

ensure that we made the best chassis

that we could possibly make that we got

the best drivers and we got the best out

of them. And so, um, you know, races

that weren't sensitive to power, you

know, we could challenge and win those

where it was a Monaco or it was a, you

know, Buddha pest type, you know, uh,

circuit. um and uh then looked to

address the the weakness and it took us

until 2019

and again a big change from uh one

engine supplier to another manufacturer

to Honda to suddenly have that ability

to you know start challenging for for

for victories and start to build a

championship challenge. I didn't realize

that in um in Formula 1 there were so

many changes with engines and

regulations so often.

It's changing all the time. Sometimes

even in the year really,

you know, changes are introduced and uh

you know, we've seen that we've seen

that this year. Um and it's not uncommon

for clarifications or technical

directives sometimes hidden behind the

grounds of safety to be, you know, to be

introduced. And it's about how you adapt

to those changes.

And that's a culture question of

culture, right?

It is is, you know, you can push against

it, but at a certain point, you've got

to accept it and uh uh and and get on

with it and and think, okay, how how can

we turn you, you know, into

fertilizer,

you know, at the end of the day. And and

and you got to embrace you got to

embrace the change and you got to go

with it. When I look at my competition

in all the industries that I'm competing

in professionally, I could tell you the

answer to the question why why I will

win. Like I have my thesis as to why me

and my team will beat them.

Yeah.

Um based on it might be culture, it

might be philosophy, it might be we care

more about this thing and over the long

term that's going to pay off. When you

look at your competition, which has been

Mercedes,

yes,

for in all the press and on on the

racetrack over the last couple of years,

why do you think your team will win?

I think that there's several factors. I

think that, you know, some things

performance is always cyclical and you

Mercedes went through an incredible

winning spree, you know, longer than we

certainly did and at some point that was

always going to come to an end whether

it's through complacency or what

whatever causes that. And I wanted to

make sure that we were the team on the

upward graph to capitalize on uh any

sign of weakness. And I think

you know there was several components.

One of course is the driver. The driver

played a key role, you know, in that in

that Max Fappen, you know, emerging as

this exciting,

determined character. And you will not

meet a more determined personality or

driver with more commitment and and

passion than than Max. and the team just

having this this inner belief and and

again pushing all of the boundaries,

operating at a level that was taking

ourselves out of our comfort zone.

Whether that be well record-breaking pit

stops, aggressive strategies, attacking

strategies, taking calculated risks

um to you know with high risk high

reward and uh with very much an attitude

of we've got nothing to lose. you know,

we've got we've got to throw everything

at this. And I think it just in the end

came down to to desire that there was

more desire. Um, and the way that we

applied ourselves as a team under

massive pressure. Um, we dealt with that

pressure. Yeah. You know, in a in a very

together manner.

How hard do you push people? I know you

said you let them get on with their job

and that they know better than than you

do at what they're there to do, but in

terms of those one-on-one conversations

you're having with those people to get

them to break those records in the pit

stop or to get them to really embody the

culture of Red Bull and want to win,

regardless of whether they've won last

year, regardless of what's been written

about in the press. What are those

conversations and how hard do you do you

have to push?

I think you've always got to encourage

people to get out of their comfort zone.

Um because if you're in your comfort

zone, you're cruising. You've got to

push yourself. Now, I'm not a table

banger or, you know, a haird dryer like

an Alex Ferguson, but it's about getting

people to go that extra go that extra

step to take themselves out of their

comfort zone. Easiest thing in the world

is not to have any change, but you've

got to continually evolve. Um and so

whilst we've had tremendous stability,

the way that the organization has

evolved is even in the last 2 years is

enormous as we've embraced new

challenges of taking on being an engine

manufacturer uh which is something

completely nuts. Why would an energy

drinks subsidiary take on MercedesBenz

and Ferrari and Renault and Honda as a

being an engine manufacturer? But it's

it it takes our own destiny into our own

control and brings everything under one

one roof and becomes completely

integrated. So in many respects it's

totally logical. Um but starting from

scratch is just about attracting again

all the same basics that served us well

on the chassis of getting the right

people, the right tools, the right

structure and having a can do attitude

of yeah, we're going to we're going to

shoot for the stars and maybe we're

going to land on the moon. But you know,

we're not afraid of taking on a

challenge.

Have you got a complacency detector

built into your mind? Can you sense when

you feel like people in teams are

becoming complacent?

You can you can sense it. You can you

can feel it. You know, if I have um

you know there's almost a guilt factor

that you feel that well I don't feel

like I'm busy enough. I need to be

busier. Um and you so you push yourself

and I think in turn you end up you know

pushing other areas of the of the

business and I think COVID was a

a phenomenal challenge.

um that you know I took everybody by

surprise again how do you take on that

challenge and you know we had went from

a culture of having probably about five

people that had the ability to work

remotely because we're paranoid about IP

and information going out of the

business overnight we went to 400 we

didn't even know whether our IT systems

would be able to cope with it and then

had to maintain that culture during this

totally alien process of being locked in

your in your home but and everything

happening on Zoom calls and uh and video

conferencing and having to design a car

remotely.

Um but by keeping that essence of team

and communicating and and talking uh we

managed to keep that embody that sense

of of of team um and uh I think that was

a big factor in why we came up with such

a competitive car in 20 or for the 2021

season because what we'd done through

COVID in keeping that essence of team

together just gave us a better product

for 2021.

You must really obsess about the small

stuff because you know all these

different departments, all these teams,

all it takes is a small pocket of

complacency for the standards to drop a

couple of percent in the car. If one

team doesn't communicate properly or if

they just don't, you know, really push

themselves to find a marginal gain that

can cause like a couple of percent drop

in the performance of the car. That can

lose you a a championship.

You can lose championships as we've

seen.

Yeah.

In seconds.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

After years of work. just a few seconds.

But I think what we've managed to um

develop within the business now is this

this uh again culture of not wanting to

let the side down, not wanting to be the

link in the chain that that that that

breaks. and uh you know whether that's

from

you know van drivers hitting deliveries

of you know to to suppliers to

machinists or designers or uh

technicians at the circuit or or or

mechanics or engineers. um that runs the

whole way through the business that

nobody wants to let the side down. And I

think that uh everybody's got that

vested interest in seeing those cars,

you know, succeed. And when they do, the

sense of pride and fulfillment and of

course you have to celebrate success.

You have to enjoy success because it's

not going to happen every single day.

You're going to lose a lot more races

than you're going to win. So when you

win, embrace it. Enjoy it. Celebrate

that moment, which is what we do as a

team after every single race. If we win

a race, we get everybody together with a

champagne after the race in the race

bays on a Monday uh you know afternoon

to celebrate that success. And if we

haven't won, you know, we we'll talk

about, okay, why didn't we win? What do

we need to do better? Even when we won

and we've celebrated, we say, okay, how

can we still be better? How can we

improve, you know, on this? and and

getting everybody to share that moment,

to share in that success is something

that's so so important. Um because then

everybody collectively feels it.

After you won the title in 2021,

how did it feel?

2021 for me personally was a hugely

challenging year because there was the

pressure of everything going on track.

Um

there was an awful lot going on on off

track as well as we're building this

engine business and so you're recruiting

from your rival teams and because

Mercedes being UK based there was a lot

of people coming out of Mercedes that

heightened the pressure. There was then

a big PR uh battle as well. So you're in

front of the cameras every week. You're

having to defend your position or defend

your driver and and it was very

concerted in in all direction. And you

could feel the pressure and building and

building. It was like a heavyweight bout

from round one in Bahrain through 22

rounds to when we got it to to Abu

Dhabi. And

we went into Abu Dhabi equal on points

with Max being a head virtue of um uh

race victories. Mercedes had gone there

with the barristers because they were

convinced that Max was just going to

drive into um Lewis I think on the first

lap and uh they'd be arguing it out uh

in the in in the stewards but you know

we qualified on on pole and then for the

majority of that race um we felt that

decisions went AC against us at the

beginning of the race because Max had

made a pass and Lewis had cut the

chicane but he wasn't told to give the

position back and everything we tried in

that case, it felt like it was slipping

away. And so what was going through my

mind was like, how am I going to pick

the guys up, you know, after what am I

going to say to Max? How, you know,

after such an intense season like this?

Um, you know, what am I going to going

to say to them? And then suddenly it

just shows that

you anything can happen in life. And

suddenly a a window of opportunity

presented itself with um one of the back

markers crashing.

Uh and you know we had to be on our

feet. We took the risk. We made the pit

stop. We bolted on a new set of tires

and Mercedes went defensive and

conservative

and that gave us a window of opportunity

to challenge for one racing lap. Um, and

with a fresh set of tires and Max

Vstappen in your car, he was going to go

for it. And so when he pulled the move

off at a corner that we completely

unexpected, I think Lewis totally

unexpected it because he left the door

open there trying to get a good exit

onto the onto the straight.

It was like, "Oh my god." And then you

they're going down the straight. They're

side by side and you know they get to

the chicane and it's he went in a little

bit deep and you know the strength of

Mercedes engine on the straight line.

you've got to get the exit onto the next

straight and then they're side by side

and then he managed to keep and protect

the the the inside line into the next

left hand and you know at that point

it's done bar

you know something breaking on the car

and then the feeling of of just

everything being lifted

uh and to see him after seven long years

of

we've been nowhere we hadn't even been

able to challenge them and then suddenly

to see everything culminate in seeing

your driver and car and team cross the

check of lap flag to become the world

champion. That that was that was just it

was very emotional and you just felt all

this pressure suddenly lift from you.

Was that the greatest professional

moment of your career today?

Undoubtedly. I mean the first time I won

it uh you I was 35 or something like

that and that was on the last race in

Abu Dhabi against the odds with

Sebastian Battle. So that was a unique

feeling and it was one of the rare races

that Dietri Matitz would uh that

actually came to. So for him to be there

was very special and um that you know

that was a massive moment for the whole

for the whole company for the whole

business. Uh but I think having been

through the tough times during that

period of not just domination,

annihilation by one of your opponents,

um to never lose sight of what the end

goal was and to fulfill that and to win

it on the last lap. I mean, you you

couldn't have written it. Nobody would

have believed it. If somebody came up

with a script and said, "That's the way

this season's going to pan out." Nobody

would have uh you know, believed it. Um,

so for sure it was,

you know, probably the the the biggest

moment of my career so far.

And the whole world was watching. I

think if people weren't into the F1,

someone sent them a text and told them

to turn the TV on at that point. I

remember that's certainly what happened

with me. I remember getting many

messages and in some of our sports chats

on WhatsApp going, "Oh my god, oh my

god, oh, so you turn on the TV and

you're watching this last lap and it's

just the most crazy.

It was insane." and and of course like

you know it was one of the most I think

it was the most singly viewed piece of

sport

um certainly last year if not in the

last 5 years and there'll probably never

be a Formula 1 championship like it in

the next 20 years

um it was so epic and of course sport is

polarizing so you know on the one hand

you've got

you know the Vstafen fans going bananas

thinking it was retribution for what had

happened early in the year. You've got

the the Hamilton fans thinking that, you

know, the race had been interfered with

and it was unfair. Um, and then you've

got the neutrals that had just witnessed

the most phenomenal race between two

magnificent drivers and teams operating

at the at the top of their game. And so

for the sport,

you know, it was it was fantastic

because suddenly again we're just

engaging with a whole new audience and

wherever we go in the world now, you

know, Formula 1 is having its moment in

the spotlight. It is, you know, it is

sold out and the demand for Formula 1 is

just huge wherever we go. If I had a

button on the desk now and the button

was a eraser button and it would erase

Mercedes as a team, it just erased the

whole team. Would you press it?

No, because it's enjoyable,

you know, racing against a team of their

quality because I mean they raised the

stakes and they raised the bar and then

we had to raise it higher to beat them.

And so the uh the satisfaction that that

gives you

um is immense. And I think what you know

what we're really proud of this year is

that we put everything into last year

even at the expense of this year because

again another massive regulation change

coming into this year the biggest in the

last 40 years. with it, console

ourselves to say, look, we'll put more

time into 2021 and if that costs us a

slower start to 22,

we'll take that if we can come away with

a trophy. Um, we managed to come away

with the trophy, but we also managed to

start the season with a competitive car

compared to all of the other teams that

had, you know, we were sure the last

team to swap over onto the 22 car, but

such was the determination and and the

motivation within the within the

business. Uh, and the talent, the car

that's been delivered for the drivers

this year has been again phenomenal.

Where does your motivation come from?

You've won. You've won. You've won.

You've gone through a period of, you

know, a battle with Mercedes, you've won

again. What is driving you now?

For me, um,

you there's no better feeling than

winning. And when you've won, you want

to win it again and you want to win it

again. But for me, the next challenge as

well is really the next chapter for the

company where not only as a chassis

manufacturer, but as an engine

manufacturer, taking a business from

scratch. Build that. We built a factory

in 55 weeks. We designed and fired up an

engine within 12 months. These are

ridiculous time scales that we're

operating to. But again, it just

typifies the the the can do culture that

you know that there is within the

business. And so for sure, the next

challenge for us is as a as a as an

engine and power unit manufacturer to

take on some of these iconic brands.

um you know come 2026 when a Red Bull

car pulls out of the garage with a Red

Bull engine powering it going up against

the Ferraris and Mercedes and Audi's at

the time and I thought it's he's going

to be phenomenal

naivity you became a principal at a very

young age

a lot of incumbents were double your age

a lot of you know the it was quite a an

older business with legacy systems and

ways of doing things

people often view naivity and youth as a

disadvantage. How was it? How was your

naivity an advantage to you in

hindsight?

I turned it to an advantage because I

think people underestimate youth. Um,

and for me, age was never a barrier. It

was it was just a number and it's how

you apply yourself. So, when I came into

the sport, I was the youngest team

principal in Formula 1. I still am to

this day, ironically.

Really?

Yeah. Jesus.

After 18 years. Wow. Um, but you know,

there were guys that have been in sport

icons of the sport, you know, whether it

was a Bernie Eckleston's or Ron Dennis

or Flavio Bri or Jean Todd running

Ferrari and even Eddie Jordan was still

around with with Jordan uh Grand Prix at

the time and all, you know, very

entrepreneurial people but all very

different but very single-minded

and again it's how you you conduct

yourself and um I didn't go into you

know, into that forum banging tables or

anything like that. I I looked, I

listened and I I would say something

when I felt I had something to say. Um,

and and you learn as well, you know, you

learn from a way that,

you know, Ron Dennis conducts himself

versus a Flavia Britori versus a Frank

Williams or, you know, Bernie Eckleston.

uh again as a complete ring master. How

he operated the business was you know

was a phenomenal education you know for

me and what you saw in each one of those

people

it just presented itself in a very

different way way was this ruthless

competitiveness.

When you have a ruthless competitiveness

you're obsessed. You want to win. You're

traveling six months a year to compete

and to win. You're consumed in these

external battles with the media and on

the track and off the track and with

this team and Mercedes and whatever

else. How do you then be a husband and a

father? Do

you know that is the one thing that

keeps you grounded. Um and you I'm very

fortunate. I've got a a really uh

supportive wife um who's obviously

experienced high pressure situations

herself of having to deliver and knowing

what the scrutiny of uh

Jerry, you know, media operated world is

like. So, so she, you know, she's been

tremendously um you know, supportive.

Um, and you know, I have a you know, uh,

three children. Um, and they're they're

what keep you grounded. Um, you know,

they don't care what you do as a job at

at the end of the day. You know, my um

8-year-old daughter is obsessed with

horses at the moment. My 5-year-old boy

is just wanting to uh, you know, make

Lego and F-16 fighter planes. Um, and

uh, you my 16-year-old daughter suddenly

she now understands what I do and I've

actually in her eyes almost become cool.

Um, so but you know, family is what

keeps you keeps you grounded and it

keeps you Formula 1 is a very glamorous

world from the outside looking in. It

can be a lonely place at at times. Um,

but at the end of the day, we're not

saving lives. Um, you know, it's an

entertainment. is a sport and what

really matters you know is family at the

end of the day and uh and that I think

makes it more precious in that you don't

take it for granted. So the time that I

do get with a family I think it's very

important to be present and and you know

not to take it for advantage. So, uh,

you know, I'll make sure that that I

take, you know, the little one to to

school or pick my daughter up from

school on a, uh, on a Friday cuz I want

I want to be there. I don't want to be

an absent, uh, father cuz I'll never get

that time time back. So, and that then

is being disciplined

with the management of your own time

because otherwise, you know, your

phone's, you know, always next to you.

It can take, you know, Formula 1 can

take over your life if you're not

disciplined in in uh in your own

approach.

Are you content?

Am I content? I am very content in so

many ways, but I'm still extremely

hungry. Um

and you know, when is enough enough? It

doesn't feel like it's enough at the

moment.

It never will be. And uh I think that

drives you, you know, some people are

happy to cruise, others want to keep

want to keep pushing. And and

you know, I'm I feel like I've only just

got going.

Do you ever think you will it will ever

be enough?

uh who know the problem you know that

that you that certainly happens in in in

this industry and I guess is the same in

in others is that time moves so quickly

you never get five minutes to reflect

and look back you're always looking

forward you know this championship the

chapter will close we'll enjoy it for

you know a couple of evenings and then

it's all about the next one and so you

never get time to reflect so actually

sitting here talking about some of the

subject in the past you you start to

think to think back and I think it's

it's only when you get to the end of the

journey that then you know then uh you

get time to reflect and I think when I

get to the end of my journey I will go

away and do something completely

different. I'll be a sheep farmer or

something like that but uh um

yeah I think uh but I don't see that in

in sight at the moment.

Could you ever imagine there being an

end to your journey? Is that something

you can foresee now? Could you imagine

getting to the day where you think, do

you know what? Pina colada is for me. Do

you know what? I I I go to work.

Um,

and every day I enjoy what I do. Um, I

I'm grateful that I'm paid to do a job

that actually I do it for free because,

you know, you enjoy it, you love it. I

enjoy working with the people. I enjoy

the sport. I enjoy the competition.

uh I'd probably be completely unemploy

employable in another uh form of of

life. And I think if you got a passion

for something that you do, you do it

that much better. Um and

yeah, money at the end of the day is is

just a valuation of success. Um it

shouldn't be the reason that you go to

work. Um and uh for me um

uh you know while I have that drive

while I have that enjoyment on the bad

days as well as the as well as the good

days that's what you know motivates me

and I think maybe there'll be a day one

day that you know I've had enough but I

I can't see or envisionage that.

Have you ever been anxious?

All that press scrutiny

all the pressure you described. Have you

ever had moments of anxiety? I think

about 10 years ago uh when we were in

the height of a championship battle um

back in 2012

I can remember uh feeling that that

uh you know my breathing you know I

became self-conscious of my own

breathing and then when you start

thinking about your breathing

you you you start overinking things and

and for me as an an I think what what is

going you know have I had too much

coffee. Did I have a Red Bull or too

many Red Bulls, you know, this morning

or whatever, and I couldn't identify,

you know, what it was. Um, and uh it was

only um uh you know, when I spoke to the

the team physio, I said, "Look, I'm just

conscious of my breathing and it's made

me feel a bit dizzy and I think I've had

too much coffee and this that and the

other." He said, 'Well, it's probably a

bit of anxiety, you know, and

and so I'd never, you know, I thought

that that was a form of of weakness. M

um and and then I read about it and I

spoke to a couple of people about it and

you know you then learn to control your

you know your breathing and and and so

on and uh and and I could then recognize

if I felt during that period

this feeling start to come on

you know just to to to to you know to

breathe breathe normally, to not take

short breaths, but to be taking, you

know, deep breaths and and so on. And it

sort of crept up on me without,

you know, recognizing it.

Same.

And, uh, yeah, it's not so it's not it

it's not a weakness. It's just your body

telling you that, you know, there's a

lot going on here. Um, and it's it's

it's way of protesting. Um, and that's

what what was happening to me at at that

time. and I recognized it and managed

to, you know, to to address it. And um

there's so many ways whether it's

meditation or just exercise or or as I

say breathing that uh um and and and

yeah, I was able to then if ever I got

those symptoms, I was able to to

recognize it and say, "Okay, hello. I

know who you are.

You know, I can deal with you."

Did you ever seek out therapy? Did you

ever go get a therapist? something

I didn't I mean my wife is pretty

together with all these things and um

she she'd experienced the same thing

whether it was

you before a show or or you know some of

the stuff they did was insane

crazy

and um and so you know she she helped me

uh you know with it um and to you know

to yeah you know to em embrace it to

recognize it to sort out your breathing

I tried meditating. I absolutely got

I can you know

um and I admire her because she has the

discipline to do that every you know

every day. Uh I just haven't got my mind

is too is too active. Um but uh you know

just definitely

um

learning to to deal with it and and it

you know it passed. It was it was with

me for a couple of months and and and it

passed and I think it was just my body

saying, "Okay, stress overload here.

Yeah, give me a break."

It's what everyone's body seems to do.

Gary Neville said to me when he was sat

here that he'd been going at such a pace

for so long that one day after reporting

on I think it was the Arsenal game. He's

in the commentary box and he just

collapses. Yeah.

He goes to the doctors, the doctor says,

"Listen, Gary, you're going too fast.

You've been doing it for too long. You

need to slow down."

He hasn't.

But it's funny how the body will tell

you before you admit it to yourself.

100% 100%.

My last question to you before I just

ask you this one in the book is on a

personal level, what are you working on?

I understand your professional

ambitions. It's very clear, but on a

personal level, when you think about

what you want to improve about yourself

with your in your personal situation,

what is what is that?

I think it's just trying to be

um

you know, the best father that you can

be, the best husband that you can be.

Um, I think that,

you know, we're all aware of our own

mortality, particularly with events

like, you know, who thought the queen

was going to, you know, going to die

with that. And again, and that just

brings it all home to you that, you

know, we're we're on this planet for

such a short period of time to,

you know, do as much as you can with the

time that we that that we have here and

to uh ensure that you make time

Um because we're all, you know,

particularly informal one, you're

chasing time all the time. Your life is

dictated by the by the stopwatch. But

it's important to make time um to be

able to have,

you know, that that that uh incredibly

important family time. Um and uh and

yeah, just to be able to to to chill out

uh which sometimes is difficult to to be

able to relax is sometimes a tough thing

to do, especially if you're working at a

you know, on a high tempo, but um uh you

know, as in work, you can always you can

always be better. You can always do

better.

Eddie Han said that to me obviously his

book is I know you've spoken to him, but

his book is called Relentless. Yeah,

he is someone that I don't think is

willing to relax at any cost. And I hear

that quite often. We have a tradition

here where the last guest asks a

question for the next guest. They don't

know who they're writing it for.

Right.

And the question that's been written for

you is quite an interesting one. I don't

get to see it until I open this book,

but the question that's been written for

you is,

this can be taken in many ways.

Okay.

How will you control your own greed?

How will I control my own greed? Um,

I think greed is

greed and jealousy are two very

destructive

components.

Um, and I think

I've never been a greedy person, but I

think

you're greedy for titles.

Greedy for titles. um in that respect,

but I think

you need to be magnanimous as well. And

I think that if you're fortunate enough

to um

you know achieve success, the most

gratifying thing to be able to do is to

do something good with it, to empower

something either, whether it be through

charity work or or just making a

difference. making a difference for for

good because it's not just about the

trophies and the uh and the plaudit.

It's sometimes about doing something

good as well.

Do you spend enough time thinking about

that?

Um

I don't. I'm going to I'm going to admit

I don't.

You can always do more. You can always

do more. And

when you do something good and and that

can be more rewarding than winning a

race and that the feeling that gives you

think actually I should actually do do

more. There's there's almost a bit of a

bias with the mind when you when you

feel like you're constantly running to

keep things moving and throwing coal in

the engine that you think I'll do that

thing when I'll be the philanthropist

when

I remember one day sitting here with

someone who said the correct approach

Steve is to make sure you're

you don't cut down the forest and then

donate to the bees.

You're learning to do both at the same

time effectively.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for your time. um

incredibly inspiring individual that's

reached the very peak of their powers.

And there's very few people I can speak

to in this country and in the world that

have managed to stay at the top of their

game championship after championship

whether they win or whether they don't

win. And re that reinvention and what

sits behind that in terms of team and

culture and philosophy and optimism and

attitude is so fascinating to me because

winning is one thing but continuing to

win with new people as the world is

changing as regulations are changing

around you is a completely different

task especially in such a technical

industry like yours where there's so

many components that you have to leave

to trust. So, it's so inspiring to read

your story. Um, and it's so wonderful to

see F1 becoming more and more popular in

culture because there's so much about it

that um I think we teaches us lessons

about life and teamwork and all of these

really important fundamentals. Um, and

yeah, it's it's an honor to meet you as

well because from an entrepreneurial

business standpoint, you're an

inspiration to me for so many reasons.

So, thank you for the conversation

today. Thank you for being so honest and

open and I appreciate your time.

No, thank you very much. I've enjoyed

it.

Quick one. As you might know, Crafted

are one of the sponsors of this podcast

and they make really meaningful pieces

of jewelry. This lion piece they've

made, I wear all the time along with the

little time piece, the sand timer that I

wear often. And the lion piece, you

might have seen Conor McGregor has a

similar piece which was custom made for

him. For me, it represents courage. And

if you walk through my house, the house

that I'm in right now, if you walk six

feet in that direction, you'll see a

huge lion portrait. If you go upstairs,

you'll see a lion portrait. If you look

behind me on the shelf near the top

there, you'll see a lion as well. The

reason my house and my life is

surrounded by lions is because they

represent courage, calmness, and that

tenacity that I've applied to my

business success, to my professional

life, and to everything in between. For

me, the lion has always been an animal

that can be almost a bit of a

contradiction. They are so loving and so

caring of their own and can be powerful

and courageous when necessary in order

to achieve what they want to achieve.

So, if you like me are a big fan of

courage, bravery, ambition while also

being calm and composed, check out this

line piece and let me know if you get

it.

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