I come from Olympic weightlifting

athletics focus always on progress and

that's what the athletes are about when

you think about physical therapists

chiropractors

we call them recoverers so helping us to

recover return the person to where the

person was before with Tajan that's not

the case or cereopuly people because

they are already dead and they cannot

return anywhere So they have to progress

the same way as athletes.

>> Jersey, nice to see you as always.

>> Pleasure.

>> All right, I'm going to talk to you.

Yeah, I always love spending time with

you and I have wanted to have this

conversation for doing the math more

than 10 years because you told me of

this transformation that we're going to

be discussing in detail a long time ago

>> and

it blew my mind to the extent that you

may not remember this. I wanted to try

to figure out a way to hire a long- form

journalist to write an entire long- form

magazine piece on this. And it turned

out that a much better format is film.

And certainly in this conversation,

we'll talk about it. But not to bury the

lead for people who don't have any

context, Jersey and I have known each

other quite a long time. And Jerseys

appeared on the podcast before alongside

Naval Ravakan

who also has worked with Jersey. And

Jersey is a four-time world

weightlifting champion, co-founder of

UCLA's weightlifting team, co-creator

with his wife Anella, the lovely Angela

of the Happy Body program. There's a lot

more to his story. We get into it in

depth in the first conversation. This

time around, we're going to talk about a

very, very specific transformation that

people might not associate with

weightlifting when they envision lifting

weights in the gym. And that is just how

farreaching

coaching transformation

can be. And I'm going to read a

definition first

of cerebral palsy, CP. This is from the

AI answer on Google, but you'll see some

version of this in most places. So,

cerebral palsy is a group of permanent

disorders affecting movement, posture,

and muscle tone caused by abnormal brain

development or damage to the developing

brain. Usually before birth, sometimes

it's during birth.

It is the most common motor disability

in children, resulting in

non-progressive limitations. I'm just

highlighting a few words here. permanent

non-progressive limitations, meaning the

brain injury does not change over time

on muscle coordination and balance. All

right. Now, I'm going to compare that

with a lead into

the doc which I'm making available for

free on YouTube, which is called

Prisoner No More. We'll have more to say

about that. It is quite short, easy to

watch, about 30 minutes to my memory.

Here's the description. What happens

when a doctor's prognosis becomes a life

sentence and one person refuses to serve

it? Prisoner no more follows Tajin Park.

And I recognize that is not probably the

perfect pronunciation for Korean, but

Tajjin Park, a young man diagnosed with

cerebral palsy who dismantled every

physical limitation medical science

predicted for him. Through elite

athletic training under Olympic strength

coach Jersey Gregor and an

uncompromising commitment to identity

transformation to Jyn's story

redefineses what the human body and mind

are capable of. And that's directed by

Jeff Wolf and we will come back to that

as well. But let's hop into an actual

conversation here and begin with Jersey

if you wouldn't mind just some before

and afters right and then we'll go into

the entire chronology of it and

everything else but maybe we could just

touch on a few like bench press what he

could do before to Jin and what he could

do after math language where would you

like to start

>> uh let's start from bench press. Yes.

>> Okay.

>> So, the first day I loaded the bar 15

lbs and he couldn't lift. He couldn't

take it off the rack.

>> Right. He couldn't unrackck it.

>> Just only 15 lbs.

>> Mhm.

>> So, I have this wooden bar, Olympic

wooden bar that I used to coach

children.

>> Mhm.

>> Four year olds. Five.

>> Mhm.

>> I remember my uh daughter was doing

snatches when she was 3 years old.

is£3.

>> Mhm.

>> But I put the three lbs on and he lifted

>> three lbs.

And I thought, okay,

he could lift three, so let's see if he

can lift eight. So I added 5 lbs and he

did.

>> Mhm.

>> I was surprised. It surprised me.

>> Mhm.

>> The difference. And then I loaded

another five on. It was 13. And he did.

came back to 15 pounds. He barely lift

that but he did.

>> So that G gave me the insight right away

that he is going to progress fast. So I

ask for his father to come to the gym

and I told him he have to be here and

you have to watch every session with him

because something is going to happen

here. I already get that feelings that

something good is going to happen.

>> So, so I don't want to spoil the story.

We're gonna get into micro progressions

and certainly the importance of the

bench press which you identified really

early on.

>> What did he get to as his sort of

maximum working weight in the bench

press?

>> He got to 170.

>> At what body weight?

>> I think around 140. Yeah.

>> So, he passed his body weight. He became

stronger than his father. and his father

couldn't believe. But as the father was

watching it for years

>> and he said at one point he said I'm

really getting what's the micro

progression is

>> it's amazing thing like

said that was really something. So

another layer to this story that makes

it all the more amazing and

inspirational and mindboggling is that

Tajin also is autistic if I'm correct.

Right. Right.

>> While you're helping him to build

confidence and competence physically,

you're also working on a lot of other

things, and I'm sure we'll get into many

of them, but could you just tell us a

bit more about his conversational

ability before and after?

>> What the father told me that he was the

conversation only with Tajan was

time to go to bed or time to eat.

>> Mhm. And there were some probably more

because he could count to 1 to 10.

>> Mhm.

>> But he wouldn't know what is 3 minus

two.

>> Mhm.

>> What I noticed that he needs to work on

the math because I asked him to to do

five squats and he did six or four,

sometimes five. So I said to Jen, I

wanted five and said that was five and

it was six, right? So he was missing.

>> Mhm.

>> And that gave me the idea that he needs

to work on his mark.

>> Mhm.

>> So I started asking him simple

questions. What is 3 + 2, 3 + 5? And up

to 10 he was okay.

>> Mhm. But after 10, they didn't know what

is the 5 + 7.

>> Mhm.

>> The subtraction didn't know at all. So

that was the beginning of the math. When

it came to English and a conversation,

he couldn't

have any conversation. So the

father

after about probably a year he said we

had a first conversation

>> after a year of training.

>> Yes. We actually talk about something.

>> So that was amazing. Yeah.

>> How long did you train with Tigin?

>> Almost 5 years.

>> Okay. So at the end of five years with

math where was he? Well, he is in

community college. He passed 57 units.

>> So, he is waiting for another three

units to finish 60 and go to San Jose

State. So, you can you can imagine

what's his maf and English he writes

essays. And

>> so, let that sink in people. It is so

wild and you'll see this in the video to

not just converse about concrete

objects, right? the mug in front of us

or

something to the left of us, the dog on

the floor. But you had him memorize

poetry so you could discuss things like

emotional tone, metaphor, right? Getting

into much more complicated

terrain.

And honestly, the more I

learn about this and the more I revisit

it, because this is not the first time

we've talked about this,

>> right? And I I just rewatched the

documentary earlier today in which I did

the voice over for and I got really

emotional watching it to be honest. So I

want to talk about the how to because

there's so many so many pieces to this.

But maybe what we should talk about is

why previous

approaches hadn't worked, right? How are

people with cerebral pausy generally

treated right by society? Why do they

have these deficiencies? Right? The lazy

explanation is well, they had these this

brain damage or abnormal brain

development and that's that, right? It's

a sentence.

>> And then Tjin had worked with physical

therapists before meeting you. So like

why didn't he make progress? I mean

those are two different questions, but

I'll let you start with maybe how you

view the environment and society as

implicated in the development for people

with cerebral palsy. And this applies to

many other places by the way. It's not

limited to cerebral pausy, but for

instance, we were talking about

community college and to Jim when he

decided to go back to school, which

didn't start with college, of course.

And there were a lot of pressures to put

him into a special program and you were

like, "No, no special program like he

has to be around normal kids." So, I'm

I'm leading into it a little bit, but

would you like to say a bit more about

that?

>> I come from Olympic weightlifting as you

know. to athletics

focus always on progress and reaching

records, breaking records and that's

what the athletes are about. But when

you think about physical therapists,

chiropractors,

doctors,

we call them really in weightlifting

recoverers.

>> Mhm. So helping us to recover

acupuncture, massage and all of this is

when we do the training we need

recovery.

>> So the recovery is that system that

helps us to recover the body for the

next day and do the next day something a

little bit more than before.

>> Mhm.

>> And create the progress. When physical

therapies approach, let's say somebody

that is after surgery or has problems,

the mission is to return the person to

where the person was before.

>> Mhm.

>> And the same with doctors, make them

healthy again.

>> Mhm. But with tajan that's not the case

because or cable policy people because

they are already dead

>> and they cannot return anywhere

>> right

>> so they have to

progress the same way as athletes

forward more you know either stronger

faster

what is 5 + 7

>> or write a line memorize the poem. So

all of it and you know belief system

that you talked before all of it and

triggers here too because he hated the

son the son

>> and he hated police and he hated mother

he hated father and and that came out

during our process of coaching so that I

had to address too

>> so the philosophy was also the part of

it. There was poetry, philosophy, there

was math and there was English. But

coming back to what you said about the

whole community that works with servo

policy, I think that they the focus is

not athletic focus. The focus is to

comfort them. So not really improve

them.

>> Mhm.

>> Not to improve them. So they are

improving.

>> Mhm.

>> Just to comfort them. So they have the

safety life and

they're okay.

>> Mhm.

>> I guess that that's probably the

difference here.

>> And just to reiterate something for

people who are listening, right? We're

talking about in in some respects two

things that will get intermingled as we

talk which does not mean that we're

equating them but you have on one hand

sort of the mood affect and some of the

communication challenges and other

components of autism spectrum disorder.

Then you have the motor challenges and

much more of course related to cerebral

palsy. So, we're talking we're talking

about both and let's revisit the prior

physical therapist, right? Because I

believe based on some of the notes that

you sent to me that his approach was to

put

Tigin on a treadmill. Is that right? Or

you just there was no in other words it

was

>> and he hate it.

>> He threw him into a plan, but it wasn't

a progression.

>> I don't know if that's fair to say. I

mean maybe maybe there was minimal

progression to it but

>> yeah maybe some progression of a

treadmill but a treadmill after a while

creates exhaustion

>> tiredness and the brain actually becomes

depleted

>> instead of getting the power getting the

strength getting more energy we're

talking about resting energy

>> and when that resting energy can be

improved that resting energy can keep

the person awake

He was very lethargic at the beginning.

>> Yeah. He would sleep in the car. He

would sleep in the car whenever he had

no never was awaken in the car and when

he was in the room

he would usually sleep because he was

not engaged with people.

>> Mhm.

>> So he was sleeping

>> and so the bench press seems like it was

one of the kind of key components to

increasing resting energy.

>> Yes. bench press for us, a squats.

>> What type of squats?

>> Back squat.

>> Back squat.

>> Back squat. And then eventually the back

squat was a big challenge because he

couldn't sit down.

>> He was very stiff. Because he was stiff,

he would fall on daily basis. He was

bruised all over the body and he walk

awkwardly.

>> Mhm. Usually father held his hand and

when they were walking and he was just

walking very to the left to the back and

awkwardly. So that created a challenge.

So the challenge for the squatting was

that he was not able to squat down. He

was able to bend

>> right his parents also took him to the

bathroom.

>> So he was looking he was looking for the

box or the chair. You remember the

boxes? I do. So he was not able to set

to sit on a 20 in box because he was

bending forward and looking for the box.

>> So that was about I guess at the

beginning about 20 in 23 in. When it

came to 16 in I noticed that he is

nicely squatting down and also was able

to turn. At the beginning he was not

able to turn. Uh when I noticed that I

told the dad he's ready to go to the

restroom on his own and ready for the

other things in the restroom. So and

that was the beginning of the first

really independence

>> for Tajan. He was able to dress himself.

The other thing was to tie the

shoelaces.

>> Mhm. So at certain point I saw that he

has this shoes and his shoelaces were

untie

and the father ran to tie his shoes

right. I said no no no he can do that

and

okay. So father sat outside of near our

lunges in our house and so he bent and

he tried to tie and the father was

looking piercing you know like I said

relax like he's going to be care and I

created this atmosphere facilitated for

tajen so he could relax

>> and he could actually make it happen. It

was about 20 minutes before he actually

made it. But it was a torture for the

father.

>> So I started really seeing how the

parents are with him that I had to teach

the father the mother to be patient to

wait until he does something not to do

for him. So that was also element that

was needed to be fixed.

>> It's also in looking at it through a

very sympathetic lens. I can understand

how all three of them have been

struggling and working hard to do the

best they can over

how old was Tigin when you when you met

him?

>> 25.

>> They were intense.

>> So 25 years right of conditioning and

habit. So it takes time for everybody

involved to do.

>> They were taking bomb.

>> They were so intense.

with him and he was I would say so fast

to respond and his also walk was that

way. He tried to walk fast because he

believed then walking fast he will be

normal.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. But I slowed down everything.

>> I taught him how to walk and it was the

torture for him. But you know said heel

and toe and heel. After about 2 3 years

he started walking normally heel and toe

and I know I have videos. I sent you

videos of it. It was just amazing to

watch that Jan to walk with soft arms

because his arms were really up and

really contracted. Yeah.

>> And control extremely control. And then

everything started being more soft and

relaxed and and he started walking

like you know like a normal person what

the father wanted came to one of my

birthdays and it was just amazing to see

him after about 4 years people were just

puzzled and I was you know was just like

is it the same person really what

happened to Tajan? is just like amazing.

>> So, I'd love to highlight a few of the

ingredients that were critical for the

recipe that led to that because

friend of mine, I'll name him because

it's funny. He'll get a good laugh out

of it. I remember I introduced my friend

Mike to you and Mike has very he has a

multitude of issues with his hips. He

has one titanium hip and I remember I

introduced it to you. He came over and

you guys trained. You laid out a program

for him and he was he was unable to

squat properly to a to a certain depth.

So you meet people where they are,

right? Everybody can improve, but it's

about knowing the starting point. You're

famous for saying this.

>> And so you gave him a certain depth and

I remember he he did that for maybe a

week and then he was feeling good. So he

decided to do it, you know, 5 in deeper

or something like that. and he came back

and met with you and your response

was you are wasting both of our time

because the micro progressions are

a key component to progressing without

injury and also I know that you feel

like the no pain no gain approach to

training is a myth right or that belief

undergrading training so I want to

mention just a few other things and

they're

of course all in line with your most

famous mantra of hard choices, easy

life, easy choices, hard life.

Hard doesn't necessarily mean painful,

right? But it does mean hard or

difficult. But I want to mention a few

of them here because it's so

comprehensive. We'll come back to this,

but

you know, car spotting, right? So Tjin

was so lethargic as we already noted

that he was typically sleeping. But

after 6 months or so, you asked his

father if he noticed anything new and he

remarked that Tin had noticed a car on

the way over. So you started to give him

assignments to remember the cars that he

spotted, the color, the make, whether

the driver was male or female. and you

got an inkling of his potential for math

because he started memorizing the

license plates which is just incredible.

Then negativity, right? This sort of

negative a effect. You already mentioned

him hating the son, hating the police,

hating this, that, or the other thing.

At certain points, hating the workout,

which maybe we'll come back to because

the I I thought it was very clever how

you responded to that with, well, once

you're an adult, you can decide if you

want to quit the training. And you had

>> that was a trick

>> and you Yeah, it was a trick and you had

hurdles for hitting that.

>> Yeah. You also gave him assignments

though to come back to the negativity

having dialogues and asking him

questions to see the world more

objectively. So assignments to have him

write in English and explain why the son

and the police might be important for

our existence. The use of celebrations.

So I might ask you about this but having

certain milestones for him where you

would give him a certificate and then I

think it was later on going to

restaurants with his family and giving

it to him in front of him. but also

because his his life, I suppose, seemed

so perhaps to him uneventful up to that

point, like nothing was happening. Maybe

you could speak a little bit to that and

then I'll jump into some of these

others.

>> Well, you know, his brain was virgin,

>> so nothing was there.

>> Yeah.

>> So, he didn't have history.

>> Mhm.

>> So, he couldn't really talk about

whatever he was doing. He was not doing

anything,

>> right? There was no content. I wanted to

create you know history in his mind

create memory about something.

>> So one of the things was to give him

certificates for the breaking records.

So whenever he broke the record then

we you know printed diploma and I asked

father to set up a dinner celebration

and every time a record was broken in

the squad or bench press. We went for a

dinner. During this dinner, we gave him

diploma and some other people came and

it was this celebration and the Jan

started liking this. It was like a star

and and after about a year I saw him. He

started talking about this celebration.

He talk about mal about poems. And so

all of it start becoming his memory, his

history. It was very important. And he

also started liking breaking records. He

got crazy on jumping up the box. But

that came because, you know, he wanted

to be an adult. So,

>> okay. So, we're going to we're going to

get to the

>> right

>> the adulthood that might come up

immediately. I also just want to give

credit where credit is due to the

parents and I don't know to what extent

it was both parents or the father but

driving twice a week. How how long was

the commute each way?

>> So they were coming twice a week about 1

hour and a half driving one way. So they

had to have at least 4 hours to come.

Father was devoted.

>> Yeah.

>> Very

kind.

devoted

and

stoic.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, he was there all the time and

you couldn't really see any irritation

in him at all. Loved his son.

>> That was very clear. So, he was coming

every time. When he couldn't come, his

mother brought him in. But it was for

them four hours drive. And I was uh I

discussed that with Tajan and I told

Tajan

how

devoted was his father. Eventually when

we started having conversation,

philosophical conversation, appreciative

conversation,

I tried to pass on him the appreciation

of his father,

enlarge the imagination about his

father. If the father was not committed

to that for five years to bring his son

twice a week and every time spent four

hours and the money

>> then I told the jan you wouldn't be who

you are today he help you to become what

you are

>> how did he respond to that

>> the you know it was uh interesting he

was just sometimes book and you could

see that he was thinking about

something. Sometimes he like it but the

joy the most joy that I saw in him

he was breaking the records and some

videos are THERE

>> he was so joyous like when you see

children sometimes

>> very joyous

in that moment that nothing else

happens.

>> Yeah. And it was ecstatic, you know, it

was just so pleasurable to see.

>> Yeah. Or like an athlete winning gold at

the Olympics on the platform, you know.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Let's talk as promised about

responsibility and adulthood. It was a

crafty

strategy on your part. Could you could

you speak to that?

>> Well, he didn't want to play piano first

>> because he had been required to take

piano.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So father told him to play

piano and I said he didn't like to come

to the workout and training. He didn't

like the training.

>> So he didn't like the piano and he

didn't like the training.

>> Yeah. And then he said I want to stop

the piano and and I said well you know

you're not an adult so you cannot do it.

You know somebody needs to decide for

you. But when you become an adult you

can stop the piano. You don't have to

come here for the training. Hm.

I said well you know then what is the

adult right? So we started discussing I

said what do you think and we started

discussing what is really an adult. So I

said well you know adult is independent

what does it mean independent right?

working, making money, living somewhere

separately and so on so on. But then I

said, but there is other thing that we

can consider you an adult. If you jump

on an 18 in box, right? So he was

jumping at that time around 11 12 box.

>> Oh, 11 12 in.

>> Yeah. He got so excited and he thought

that he can conquer it right very

quickly and he was on a mission with

this box I tell you know he was like

energy that was generated in him

>> well it's the same energy like in me

when I was wanted to go to Olympics like

this I would run to the forest you know

at 2:00 a.m. Whatever was needed to do,

I would do and I would do with lots of,

you know, energy and and and this is

commitment and so he was committed.

>> He wanted to jump. But I knew that six

in it will take two years cuz my

progression is done. He was not going to

do it easily. had we were on and we were

on and on and then he came to I think

about like 17 something in he was so

excited and then we ended up with some

problems and he had to heal his back

because it's not so simple to just jump

on 18 it's a ch it was a huge challenge

for

>> when people watch the documentary and I

would have mentioned this in the

introduction But I made a a short link.

Doesn't sound short, but easy to

remember link that'll point you straight

to it on YouTube. If you just go to

tim.blog/hard

choices.

If you go to tim.blog/hard choices,

it'll take you straight to the doc. But

when you watch the doc and you look at

Tigen's before, right? What is motion

motor control walking looked like before

and imagine him jumping onto a 17in box.

It is unimaginable when you look at the

starting point.

>> Really just incredible.

>> Now I want to

hear you explain another development

that

I think is just

so compelling and that is related to

math. Right? So he starts memorizing

license plate numbers. You're also

working with him on repetitions and

building up some of that arithmetic

muscle.

How did he go from that to doing math

five to six hours a day and having that

fire lit with him?

>> Well, it was progressive, but

>> Well, it was progressive, but that's why

I'm asking how did he get there?

>> So, first I I started really working on

the counting. So he had to count from

until 20 or 30. And

>> I'm so sorry to interrupt. I just want

to pause to just let people have that

sink in for a second. Math 5 to 6 hours

a day, which again, we're going to talk

about the journey. Like most people on

20 cups of coffee a day could not do 5

to 6 hours of math a day.

>> I asked him about the counting.

>> First was the counting that he couldn't

count to 20. So I said, "Okay, let's

count to 15. Can you count to 15? So we

counted to 15. When he got to 15, I

said, "You go home and you start

learning to count to 20." So he came

back and I tested him. Did you count to

20? Yeah. So okay, count. So he counted.

So then I add the addition, you know,

how much is, you know, 5 + 7? He

wouldn't know. So homework going

homework you learn how much is 5 by 6 7

and 8 9 all the calculation up to 20 for

the adding then subtraction division

multiplication all of it until you know

the number 10 or 20 then counting to 30

40 50 100

>> and when we got there I told that he

needs a tutor

we need a tutor, math tutor and English

tutor. He needs both. And so they hired

people to help. So I was testing,

of course, but he had this tutors. So I

think that it was an amazing

addition

to work on his brain. And I noticed the

same story with other policy people that

I have difficulties with math.

>> Some of them that I saw that they I had

good English but math looks like uh

difficulties.

So eventually when he progressed with

energy with bench press came to the

certain point within a year that he

could press about 100 pounds.

>> Mhm.

>> And that gave him enough energy that he

could go to his computer and spend hours

on the computer

to study his elementary school. He

started actually elementary school and

you know because he was not in

elementary school so he was 25 years old

when he so he joined this program

elementary school program and he started

you know working through it on his own

>> and after two years he passed the whole

elementary school then he started high

school another two years and he passed

H

>> the normal high school, you know, like a

normal the same program as other people

do. And father said,

"Then is like on fire. He like it's 2:00

a.m. and he's still on his computer and

he started like 8:00 p.m. and at 2:00

a.m. he's on his computer and he doesn't

want to stop." There was something in

him awaken

and

powerful

and at the same time he started noticing

that who he was

>> as a person that actually he was a

person and he was cerebal policy

and that generated a lot of negativity

in him a lot of resentment and to his

father and mother and then he started

really talking that he hates his mother

and then he hated everything at that

time. Yeah.

>> Before Yeah.

>> What did you notice in

>> and just to flash forward, right? I

mean, he's

his father's reported that he's living

an independent existence, taking care of

his own needs, planning his own days,

orders Uber, rides to get to his

classes, manages his own paperwork. So

that's the that's the after. What did

you notice in terms of and how did you

cultivate this if you did? I don't know

if you did this deliberately or if it

was a byproduct of everything else, but

emotional range or facial expressions.

Did any of those did any of that change

over the course of the training?

>> Well, emotionally he was blank the same.

So for a long time,

>> you mean in whatever circumstances?

Yeah, but at certain point he started

being negative and expressing his

negativity

and then he he made this moves and uh I

couldn't see where he was. I was looking

for where he was but I

address negativity as something that

needed to be fixed.

So whenever he said that he hated

something I challenge it challenge it in

a way why is it good right? So he was

negative but and then why police is

good,

>> why the son is good, why the father is

good, why the mother is good. So

expanding and expanding imagination for

him to facilitate this. So he could find

in his mind actually acceptance that

actually is a good thing is a huge shift

in his psych believing and and liking

people right he never liked me it's just

like

I don't like you and he said I don't

like you just like

>> how long did he say that for

>> all the time he never liked me

>> so he'll will celebrate and give you a

high five for your training. But

>> still,

>> I don't I don't know even today if he

likes it. Probably not.

>> You know, I I created a lot of hard

choices for him. So, he went out, you

know, eventually he will come to this

point that he will maybe like what have

you done maybe, but not really me.

Wow, that's kind of amazing.

Well, you know what? As as long as you

don't care about the credit, you're

doing good work in the world.

>> Yeah, I was not, you know, there to

>> Yeah.

>> to shine.

>> Of course. Of course. Could you talk

about helping him or asking him to

identify heroes

a bit? That also

stuck out to me. Could you provide a

little bit of context to people on that

piece of

>> He was already in elementary school and

he was

writing an essay about a hero.

>> That was an assignment.

>> Yes. And he wrote it. So he

>> from school, not from you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. From school.

>> Because he already had a tutor, English

tutor. So he was always proud when he

did something,

>> he was bringing something and

>> and reading me.

So, you know, he

read it and so he wrote about Jingishan.

>> Mhm.

>> And I said, "Okay, so is Jingisan a

hero?"

Yeah. Okay. So, I said, "Well, why he is

a hero?" Oh, he talk a little bit and I

said, "So, who is a hero?" Well, that

created a philosophical

approach. So we ended up that the hero

is really risking their own life for

others to save others. But that's not

Jingis Khan. So Jingghishan was not that

he was in conqueror but he was not a

hero. And then at the same time I

watched this movie about admiral

actually Korean admiral about 300

Japanese ships were coming to Korea to

you know conquer them. and he with one

ship and 12 and he stood up to them and

actually the 12 ships you know that

people didn't want to fight wanted to

surrender he said no and he fought and

he fought and these other 12 ships you

know joined him eventually and the whole

Armada Japanese Armada turned back

>> and I said that is your hero

>> and I said that is your hero from Korea

and you are going to rewrite this essay,

but it's too late. I said, "It's not too

late. You're going to go to your

teacher. You tell the teacher

why Jenis Khan was not a hero and you

want to rewrite the essay."

Okay. I said, "Okay, you go and do it."

And he did. And he rewrote the essay.

The teacher agreed.

>> I can see why he might not like you.

>> Yeah.

It's fair. Yeah, pretty. It was It was

very quick, you know. You know, you

know, think about I I was coaching him.

It was he was jumping, he was lifting.

And at the same time, we did poetry,

math, English, right? All of it

together.

And it was

>> yeah,

>> hard teachers.

>> Why he wouldn't like me? I don't know.

Yeah, there are many reasons. But, you

know, uh one day he was he wanted to

step on a 6 in box. I remember and he

tries to step and he would not

>> and this is the one foot up

>> just stepping one foot and like on the

stair right

>> it was like he he was I don't know and

like I couldn't make it

>> so I grabbed his shirt

>> and pull him

>> I've seen the video

>> and on in and on and after about two

times I left him and he was jumping on

this box like one of the other stepping

one one one and so fast. It's just

amazing what the brain is.

>> Yeah.

>> You get a little bit help and suddenly

the door opens up and it's the

progression is huge and fast. It's

amazing. I tell you what I was watching

what I learned during this process. Wow.

>> Yeah. I just even to this day I know

that modern science has come to a

greater appreciation of brain plasticity

and the malleability and adaptability

and of course just as the let's call it

broadly speaking this is a

simplification but the control center

for the entire body right the brain's

job is to keep the body alive so they're

they're dance partners there is just so

much room for improvement and

I mean a lot of the science that I've

supported has been related to this, but

it this was the first time I'd ever seen

such an amazing transformation in

someone with cerebopal palsy that was so

clearly and well documented also, right?

And

I want to talk about next steps in a

little bit to try to expand this into a

study. But before we get there, can you

speak to

training logic?

So I think that was after about two

years of already training with him but

working on his thought process using

poetry. Why did you do that?

He couldn't really read the lines of

poetry and understand the feelings

emotions behind.

So

then I started really doing the math and

seeing whether he can think logically.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. So I tested him. You know if A is

B and B is C. So he's A, he's also C and

and playing these games and slowly he

started not only being logical in I ask

him about writing something about what

is logic and give me the example and so

he was he would bring me was there logic

or not. So we tested that

>> and then added the math. But the most

difficult for him was to read a line of

poetry and know the metaphor. Not really

what really happened but what was the

meaning of the line

>> the words not just the words.

>> Yeah. And every line. So when I asked

him to remember and recite the poem he

would recite the poem and then we

analyze the poem every line after line.

And what is the meaning? What is the

feeling of the line? And that was an

amazing

possibility for him to learn the

language and the feeling feelings behind

the language, the emotions. At the

beginning, he didn't have any clue about

the feelings, what the actually written

words express when it comes to feelings.

>> Yeah. When I think about your entire

coaching experience with Tjen, I'm

struck by

how many different levers

you were you were able to help him pull.

Right. But one that sort of meta lesson

that pops out to me, and I'd love for

you to correct this if I'm not thinking

about it the right way, is that

he didn't respond to people in

conversation. Ryan didn't have much of a

response in part, and I'm projecting

here because he didn't have the belief

that he could. He had no history to

support the belief that he could. Right?

And then with physical movement,

similar, right? And you gave the

example, I mean, this is a very fast

example, but of grabbing the shirt and

kind of forcing him to do it. And then

within a few repetitions, you let go and

he's doing it on his own. And of course,

there's the progression over time. But

even with the poetry and

how you gave him assignments to practice

public speaking without that

he wouldn't have had the confidence to

then speak say within the more

complicated context of school with

classmates and things like that I have

to imagine right but you I sometimes

have listeners or readers ask me what

can I read to develop more confidence

and I'm like well you can try to read to

develop more confidence But really like

you're not going to fool yourself. You

need to do things to develop the history

of doing things so that you have

confidence.

Does that resonate or would you add or

reframe that somehow

>> you know? Yeah, of course. You know what

you say? It's a certain perspective but

I would like to tell you about my

perspective.

>> Yeah, that's what I'm asking. You know,

I saw the mind, the brain as something

that needs to find the way

>> forward and find the way around those

patches that

were

>> Mhm.

>> And I saw it everywhere. I saw it in

math when you cannot know what is 2 + 2

that is four and you struggle. You know

for me the child struggles to find out

what is 2 plus two eventually the child

knows and so there are certain

connections already and then 2 + 3 and

so on right. So development of math I so

crucial here very important that

when I am not there he can practice

actually the math and by practicing the

math we overcome this you know many

steps the steps of progression the

microp progression

>> and also that challenge

has this plasticity of the brain that

that plasticity that is not you know

like I thought okay I make him strong

doesn't mean that something else is

going to happen or maybe I will not make

him strong because the maf is not

developed so I saw the connection

between the the squad the bench the

numbers the words and the beliefs and

philosophy

I saw connections everywhere and I

created the challenges the hard choices

is every time everywhere for me you know

bench pressing

going from 100 pounds to 102

was not different than to know what is

15 + 17. If I know what is 15 + 17 isn't

another thing that when it happens

something happened in the brain that was

not there before.

>> Mhm. And I

started facilitating all this

development of the brain

that would be challenge develop from

different perspective and I think that

eventually the research needs to be done

you know I try to understand what I've

done because I've never really work with

person like that right so I try to

understand too what happened there How

did it happen and whether there there is

possibility even to replicate this and

help you know so many people Tajan's

progress is amazing crazy amazing

>> Mhm. magical

and if that could be replicable, wow, we

could help a lot of people.

>> Well, let's talk about it because before

we start recording, I was trying to get

an idea of the rough number of

cerebal palsy diagnoses in the US and

you're based in Northern California. So,

I wanted to get an idea in California.

These are real back of the napkin rough

internet responses, but it seems like

let's call it roughly 1 million

diagnoses in the US potentially and then

could be occurrence in that diagnosis

but somewhere between 100 and 120,000 in

California alone. So this is a

non-trivial condition. It's very

prevalent and

if you could develop a method right

through doing research develop a method

that you mentioned could be replicated

could be taught to physical therapists

then this could have tremendous impact

on a wide scale and

maybe we could talk about what some of

your thoughts are and I'm going to

create a web form for people who want to

potentially indicate interest in certain

facets of this. But what might what

might the program look like? How many

how many patients would you have?

What would it look like in practice to

do a research project to determine if

you can formulate a method that would be

replicable or a template maybe with a

little bit of tweaking here and there

that physical therapists could use or

others. meantime I had some experience

with other cereal policy people and my

approach is one I believe that

everybody can improve. So it really

doesn't matter for me it is cereable

policy or not.

>> Mhm.

>> If it's chronic fatigue

it can happen.

>> If it's fibromyalgia the progress can

happen. So with seral policy when we

think about ser policy people they have

different conditions different

beginnings

the most important is to find where is

beginning where to start a one the major

thing because usually I think that we

want too much

>> it's not going to happen so we need to

find this very tiny thing you remember

Juel in Hawaii you helped me to go and

coach her.

>> Mhm.

>> She was 18 at that time and she couldn't

control her head and arms and legs. So

her mother would hold her and I would

try to find out where is the beginning

with her

>> and she has hands like this and and was

moving and and I found out that I

pointed to one place. I took a ball very

close to her like about an inch from her

arm and then fingers and asked her to

touch it

>> and she struggle and struggle and we

found a way where actually she could

touch it and she was so happy

>> when she touched. Oh, I have to send you

this videos.

>> Yeah, please. you can cry, you know,

when you can see things like this. And

her joy

when she was doing it. So also the math

I found out that her mind was very good

with stories. She could talk about some

things and she loved the stories to

listen to stories. But her math was not

really different than the dance.

>> The math.

>> Yeah. There was like she could only

count from 1 to 10.

and then adding you know 2 + 5 she would

and then we would start with that. So I

see the math is major part of that

method. The physical

is

is of course the beginning. The

beginning is how strong they are and how

flexible they are. Flexibility is the

main point here because the awkwardness

comes from both. One thing that the

brain the mind cannot control those

places but those places also the the

parts of the body became that way.

>> Mhm.

>> So that's why awkwardness is coming in.

So the the physical and the physical

improvement of the physical becomes

challenging because

they can you know injure themselves.

They can be in pain and those to who

will facilitate there will need to know

how to start

>> how to use the microp progression how to

write everything down. Like Tjan knew

all his numbers. He knew how to measure

the time of, you know, five or 10 jumps.

And he would write all the the jumps and

brought to the gym what he did. His

homework was numbers, numbers, numbers,

numbers. Not only the numbers of

counting, but also the numbers of

measure.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. So, just to hop in for a second

cuz I would love to help. Of course,

that's part of the reason we're doing

this conversation is to help facilitate

trying to create some type of template

that can be applied to a lot of people

with cerebal palsy.

So, the the short link, not to bury the

lead, the short link will just be

tim.blog/cp blog/cp

and we'll have a web form for people who

may want to

help from an academic perspective

ideally in Northern California somewhere

within near driving distance since you

would want to be there I think the

thought is maybe twice a week with these

different folks something like that

>> yeah I see that about maybe five several

policy people

>> Mhm. and meeting them twice a week,

let's say Tuesday and Friday.

>> Mhm.

>> For one year and then add another five.

>> So now it's 10. Another five.

>> Mhm.

>> And do it for five years.

>> Five years in total.

>> Yeah. Record everything. See how it

works.

bring therapists or others that could

actually watch, observe, and learn.

>> Mhm.

>> And I

believe

that this replicability is possible. We

need to test it. We need to explore

whether how is it really possible. What

can we actually do

>> when we have this, you know, 25 people?

It could be that it was because I was

there, but I don't want to say it that

it was because of me everything

happened. It could be that perfect storm

happened cuz I was I was a math teacher.

I'm a poet.

>> I'm a weightlifter.

So, so all of it happened that I was

this one person facilitating that.

>> Mhm.

>> But when we do research, we don't have

to have one person. We can have you know

math people, English and you know

philosophers and we can have trainers.

We can create a center and in that

center we can

think about how we can progress

>> how we can improve and document

everything in details the same way as I

was doing. micro progression

is an amazing power.

>> Mhm. What strikes me also that with the

right people involved and with the right

consistency, right? And I mean you might

need a faculty member to agree to

spearhead it and then there would be

fundraising which you know is pretty

straightforward to figure out and then

they would have postocs or people

underneath them would help with

recruitment although I don't think

that'll be a problem after this podcast.

patient recruitment and then making the

trains run on time. But I could see a

path, as I'm sure you've thought about

this much more than I have, but where

you could end up with something like a

core curriculum of principles, right,

that you're teaching and maybe you're

recording video modules to explain these

things to practitioners where it's like

micro progressions, finding a place to

start, what are different ways to find a

place to start. And then perhaps there

are certain things that won't apply to

everyone. So for instance, we didn't

talk about, we don't have to spend a lot

of time on it, but Tay Jin was kind of

crumpled to the right side, right? So

you had a ball hanging from the ceiling

that you have him reach up to touch to

help correct that. So there might be

core curriculum and principles and then

sort of ancillary

principles and techniques that can be

applied on a case-by case basis, but

then you end up with this core

curriculum that people can learn

remotely or something like that. I mean

it's it's really exciting to think about

>> at this point I see that we can assess

these people from

five perspectives I think the

>> the physical perspective

>> you know where they are physically

>> and where is the flexibility where is

the strength math perspective

>> language perspective philosophy

perspective beliefs perspective where

they are so easily we can take the

psychology and then psychologists and

develop certain ways of assessing them

where our beliefs right in math is very

clear right in the language

probably English teachers and they will

create very quickly curriculum to find

out where is the level of that and then

once we have that says okay we have a

physical problem that is 80% % math is

only 3% is not you know the person is

really good in math in English as well

but we can have also that math is not

there at all and walking is good so

there are all possibilities

how we can assess

>> mhm

>> from these five perspective these people

but we need but we need to also explore

and experience them

>> right there you not only one person to

Jan because it's just only one person.

>> Now we need to see can we actually do

with five.

>> Can we actually deliver what we

delivered? I mean this is the scientific

method right and you have such a

fantastic starting point right it's an

end of one although you you've worked

with more than one person with cerebral

palsy at this point but let me just give

the URL out again so for people who

might be interested if you are at

Stanford or UCSF or San Jose State or

someplace that might be able to help

with this type of research if you are in

a financial position and would like to

support this type of research go to

tim.blog/cp

or if you have other resources you want

to bring to bear on this in some way,

tim.blog/thes

cp standing for cerebral pulsey. So

tim.blog/cp and just fill out the web

form. I'm incredibly excited about this.

We covered a lot in our first

conversation. We've covered a lot in

this conversation.

Is there anything else that you'd like

to mention or cover that we haven't

gotten to already today?

>> Uh, another question. Yeah.

>> Well, we covered a lot but I think one

of the most important you know thing is

that people can get help and if we have

the right approach we can facilitate

create that and of course they change

right we didn't change them.

>> Mhm. So we have to remember that we are

facilitators. We are not really

cultures that you know created the

powerful human being that actually

powerful human being created themselves

and we have to create a place where is

athletically align with athleticism and

not care only. We know I see that as

soon as we care or we exercise without

mission or purpose or goals that we can

exercise for 10 years and never change.

>> Mhm. So I saw this people thousands of

these people right so it doesn't apply

only to cereop policy people because it

applies everywhere else but with cereop

policy it's very interesting because

they have this

situation in the mind in the brain that

actually we could work with

>> these are the patches in the brain that

we can

create the peripheral nervous system

that actually goes around. We can create

that mind that plasticity of the mind we

can create.

I think it is I have strong feeling that

this is possible. I always believe that

it can be done. I just created

challenges, constant challenges with the

jan that could deliver the results, the

change the why wanted. Mhm.

>> It has to be always the where are you

going? Right. So for me, he had to walk

straight. He had to walk soft. And for

me, I would not sleep until I would get

it. So we need devoted people. We need

people that are devoted to this to these

people to help them.

>> Not just, you know, physical therapist

that want us to to make money and go

home.

>> Mhm.

>> This is a huge challenge. these people

extremely challenging and we need to

also challenge them.

>> Yeah.

>> And by the creating this challenge we

can create amazing thing actually.

>> Yeah.

>> So it is not something that somebody is

has cancer and it will get worse.

>> Mhm.

>> That's not the situation here. This is a

very unique situation with cereopy

people that we have the situation that

somebody is and somebody doesn't change

for worse.

>> Somebody is like that can change for

worse too because life happens. But

because people are like that

we have very clear slate to begin with.

>> Mhm.

>> And we are not dealing with ill people

>> sick people. We're just dealing with

people who mechanically something

happened to their brain.

>> Mhm.

>> And that can create for us a really

great beginning.

>> Mhm.

>> And

it could be that with almost any subra

policy something like this return to I

wouldn't say they cannot return because

many of them they are just that way. So

they cannot return anywhere but they can

improve

and become like tajan become tajan that

is going to college from the person that

was only waiting for food and sleep and

couldn't go to toilet

and was lethargic all the time. The life

was like that for him and that life

would be like that right if nothing

happened what actually we did he would

be that person and the par here is the

parents the parents I saw happy parents

but after three four years they actually

they were like a ticking bomb you said

about intensity between this three

people right but about three four years

I saw them happy first time

happy

and that is enough

to fight for right to give everything

whatever you have to create the

happiness in this three people who were

worrying all the time what will happen

if they die what will happen if

something happened to them now they

don't have to worry anymore

The journey is completely independent.

He is in college for Christ's sake. Just

imagine that and a lot of that I believe

100%. That can happen with everyone.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The happy body microp

progressions. I mean your philosophies

and philosophy might scare people off.

Your principles can be applied to so

many different things that you and

Anella have developed over the years.

really want to make this research

project happen. So folks, if you're

interested in any way helping with that

in whatever capacity, you go to

tim.blog/cp.

And then also want to mention just like

the way that you and Anella coach can be

applied most certainly to many different

conditions, many different

circumstances, all circumstances in some

sense. I want to give a shout out to

Jeff Wolf, the director of Prisoner No

More. I always ask everybody before I

talk to them or do anything with them,

what would make it truly a home run? And

he just mentioned the bigger opportunity

is to position Prisoner No More not just

as a standalone short, but as a proof of

concept for a larger series. The vision

is a slate under the same umbrella. So

you could have Prisoner No More for

Alcoholism, Prisoner No More for Fill in

the Blank, right? which I think is also

very exciting. So, I really really hope

people you got to watch it. You got to

see what we're talking about visually.

It'll just like a lot of you are going

to cry. I'm going to tell you in

advance, but it's good cry. So, check it

out. tim.blog/hard

choices in honor of

>> hard choices.

>> Hard choices, easy life. Easy choices,

hard life. So, tim.blog/hard choices.

Check it out. You can find the Happy

Body and more on Jersey and Enella's

training at theappybody.com.

And I'll link to everything in the show

notes as usual at tim.blog/mpodcast.

So if you're like, "That's a lot to

remember." Don't worry about it. Just go

to tim.blog/mpodcast

and search Jersey, not spelled like New

Jersey, but spelled Jerz

Y. And trust me, there's only one Jersey

on my website. It's Jersey Gregor.

Jersey, thank you so much for the time.

It's always great to see you.

>> Thank you, Tim.

>> And everybody who has tuned in as

always, I appreciate you. Till next

time, be just a bit kinder than is

necessary to others and to yourself, but

not just comfort. Don't just make

yourself feel better. Don't just eat

that cheeseburger and watch reality TV

on Netflix. Challenge yourself. Wherever

you happen to be, you can make progress.

You can make amazing progress. You just

need to find the right starting point.

And for that reason, check out the

happybody.com. Listen to my first

conversation with Jersey on the podcast

as well. Until next time, thanks for

tuning in. Negative.