Was there ever a time when you believed

that Whole Foods was going to fail?

>> There were times when it almost did

fail, but there was never a time I

actually believed it would fail.

>> You said something beautiful there about

what it takes to keep [music] people

>> at Whole Foods is like, "Wow, you've had

so many people work in 20, 30, even 40

years here. How do you do that?" You

give people two things. [music] Give

them purpose, and secondly, they want to

feel they're loved. So, if you give

people purpose and love, why would they

ever want to leave?

>> Hey everyone, welcome back to On

Purpose, the place you come to become

healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm

so grateful to have your ears and eyes

for the next hour or so, and I'm really

looking forward to diving in with

today's guest. Today's guest is John

Mackey, an entrepreneur and co-founder

and visionary of Whole Foods Market. In

his 44 years of service as CEO, the

natural and organic grocer grew from a

single store in Austin, Texas to 540

stores in the US, UK, and Canada with

annual sales exceeding 22 billion

dollars. John co-founded the conscious

capitalism movement and co-authored a

New York Times and Wall Street Journal

best-selling book entitled Conscious

Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit

of Business, and then the follow-up,

Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity

Through Business. John is also the

co-author of The Whole Foods Diet: The

Life-Saving Plan for Health and

Longevity, and The Whole Foods Cookbook.

And today we're talking about his latest

book, which is called The Whole Story:

Adventures in Love, Life, and

Capitalism. It's available right now.

We're going to put the link in the

comments. I'd love for you to order this

while you're listening along. I promise

you, it won't disappoint. Please welcome

to On Purpose John Mackey. John, it's

great to have you here. Thank you so

much.

>> Thanks for having me on, Jay.

>> Yeah, really grateful to have you here,

and And saying to you just now before we

started that

I actually received Conscious Capitalism

at such a pivotal moment in my life. I

just finished 3 years of living as a

monk.

And I would honestly say that I'd up

until that point thought that

consciousness or capitalism were two

separate things and that they were two

separate pursuits. My monk life

definitely helped me learn how they were

integrated, but then when I was

integrating back into the real world, so

to speak, for me to wrap my head around

rewiring my relationship with

consciousness and capitalism,

your your book and your movement really

helped craft some of that initial

thought. So, I want to thank you for

coming into my life at a at a very

pivotal and important moment for me.

>> Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so

you put your books out into the world

and you you don't always know if it if

it's helping anybody or if it's having

an impact unless you hear back from

people. So, of course that makes me feel

really good. Thanks for sharing that.

>> No, of course. Uh John, there's so much

to talk about today, especially about

your new book, The Whole Story, and I

wanted to start off actually just by

asking you, was there ever a time when

you believed that Whole Foods was going

to fail?

>> I don't think there was ever a time I

believed it was going to fail. There

were times when it almost did fail.

>> [laughter]

>> But there was never time I actually

believed it would fail. I'm a follower

of Joseph Campbell's

the hero's journey and and I feel like

every one of us is called to a hero's

journey, but for a variety of reasons,

most people don't answer that call,

usually fear. I just kind of answered

that call. I just I got when I was

studying existentialism and philosophy

in university in my in my very late

teens and early 20s, I got really clear

about death.

We're going to die. Nobody gets out of

here alive. And it's a lot shorter than

people realize, the time that we have.

So, what do you want to do with it?

I felt like this is what my heart and my

soul called me to do. I talk about it in

the book quite a bit. And

so, when you're on the hero's journey,

you have a lot of near failures. You

have setbacks. You do get knocked down.

But, also amazing things happen. All

these synchronicities occur. You seem to

meet the right person at the right time.

The right mentor shows up. Uh miracles

seem to occur when you're on your path.

And it's just sort of this grand

adventure. And yes, I mean, we did have

we we had a flood in our in our first

year at Whole Foods Market where we had

8 ft of water and I didn't know it was a

we'll call it a near-death experience.

But, actually it was

turned out in retrospect to have been a

great thing. It it taught us a lot. It

taught me about stakeholders and how

we're all interconnected and how there

are people that love you. Your customers

can love you. Your employees can love

you. Your suppliers can love you. And

the community you're part of can love

you. And you can love them back. So,

even in the bad things that happened,

the disasters, if you reframe them, they

were all lessons to be learned on

the on the hero's journey, on the path.

So, no, I never really felt it would

fail. I always thought it would be

successful.

But, you know, we almost did a few

times. But, we didn't.

>> Yeah. Do you feel now you're at the

stage of the hero's journey where you're

returning with the elixir? Is that where

you're at or

>> You know, I've returned with that

elixir, but then I feel like I'm still

called. And that's my new business I

started up called Love Life, which is I

think also about it's still trying to

help people to be the healthiest version

of themselves, but going beyond just

healthy food.

>> Mhm.

>> And the the deeper part of spirituality,

physical healing, emotional healing, and

spiritual healing. We now have the

technologies we didn't have in the past.

And we have the wearables. And we have

the consciousness that um

needs so many so many traditions are

integrating now around the world. All of

the mystical paths, I mean you were a

monk for 3 years, so clearly you were

doing a lot of meditation. You were on

your spiritual journey. Well, today all

that all that knowledge has been

available to people. It's so much

It's easier to become enlightened today

than it used to be, you might say. And I

feel like of course that's what humanity

needs, right? Collective awakening,

collective enlightenment. And yeah, so

feel like I'm still on the path.

>> I love that. I mean in the book, the

whole story, you're very candid, you're

very open, and

you're a different sort of business

leader because of what you just spoke

about. I'm intrigued as to when did your

curiosity and consciousness and

spirituality begin? Is it something that

was always there since you were born or

was it something that you discovered

over time and how?

>> Even as a child, I mean I think most

children have some kind of mystical

relationship with part of their being.

Their their our imaginations, their

their love and the innocence in

children. Always felt a a connection to

the divine even as a as a as a child.

And then it was more traditional. I was

raised as a Christian, so traditional

Christianity.

The deeper spiritual awakening occurred

when I was like first time I actually

took a psychedelic drug, LSD, back when

I was 20 in university.

And that sort of knocked me off the path

my parents had planned for me. My

parents wanted me, possibly your parents

wanted the same thing, for me to be a

professional.

Above all else, they wanted me to be a

doctor or lawyer or an engineer or get

an MBA, do you know, be respectable.

And and but that's totally knocked me

off and then I began my own search for

the meaning of life. I wanted to

understand

do I have a purpose? What is existence

about? Is it all just, you know, random

chance, Darwinian Darwinian survival of

the fittest? Is there

a deeper spirituality? And of course

that's not found necessarily externally.

It's an interiority. It's it's found

within our own being, within our own

consciousness. And the psych- the LSD

awakens me to that possibility. And then

I began to read Eastern religions. I

studied religion, meditating.

Uh and then I continued on that journey

and had experienced an ego death again

through psychedelics when I was about

22. That's really kind of the starting

point of the book. I dissolved my ego. I

mean it I was just part of the one.

There's only There's only the one being.

And and and I just realized that at the

at the essence I I remembered it

actually. It's like

Oh, yeah. I forgot. [laughter] Here it

is. And and that changed everything

because then I it was like, "All right.

I can create to dream. I can create

whatever I want to create." And what do

I want to create? And that's where the

interiority, the the hero's journey

begins. And I moved into this food co-op

when I was 22 years old, maybe 23.

And it was vegetarian. I wasn't

vegetarian at that time. But but I was

really interested in all things

counterculture. I like the hippies. And

I thought, "Man, I'm going to meet some

cool people in a vegetarian co-op." And

I did. And I had a food awakening. I I

But until then I I just kind of ate the

standard American diet, a lot of junk

food. I was more like a car. Got to take

it in to get gasoline periodically to

run fuel. Long as the fuel tastes good,

I'll eat it. And And so I didn't eat

many vegetables. I didn't eat much

healthy food. And so I learned how to

cook in the co-op. I learned about

natural organic foods. And I got excited

about it, Jay. I was like on fire. And

then I went to work in a small natural

food store. And it was like I loved it.

I loved I was in a community of

employees that I shared a lot of current

values with. I was I was connecting with

customers that were my neighbors,

becoming friends. And it was like

I want to do this. And I I remember I

went back to the co-op uh

Prana House. It it called Prana House.

And talked to my girlfriend, Renee. I

think that time I was probably about 23.

Renee was 4 years younger, so she was

19. And I said, "Renee, what do you

think if we open up our own store? Don't

you think that'd be cool?"

And she said, "Oh, macro man, that'd be

really cool. Let's do that." And so So,

we did. And that was the beginning. The

first store was called Safer Way. And

then a couple years later, uh, it we

relocated it, merged with another

natural food company, and became Whole

Foods Market. And, uh, the adventure was

well launched at that point.

>> I want to go back to a couple of things

you mentioned there, John. This idea

that,

you know, not everyone who takes LSD or

a psychedelic sparks a

pursuit into a deeper spiritual journey.

It can for some, it doesn't for

everyone. For you, it obviously got you

into philosophy, Eastern religions, as

you said. It It kind of forced you

deeper. What do you think when you

describe that to someone who's never had

a psychedelic experience, never been

exposed to that? What does that mean

when you say I had an awakening? We'll

get to the ego death part, but when you

say you had an awakening, when you say

it opened it up, what's What is What are

you experiencing for someone who may not

actually know what that means or feels

like?

>> Well, of course, it's like describing a

rainbow to someone who's blind. I mean,

they they can't understand it really

until you have a similar experience. Or

what is, uh, making love like until

you've actually done it? I mean, there

are certain experiences that you have to

have to actually understand it. So, when

I talk about that,

I don't expect people that haven't had

similar experiences to understand, but

I expect the ones that have had similar

experiences to say, "Oh, wow, I've I've

been there. I've done that. I felt that.

Experienced that." Kind of speaking to

that audience in a way. But, I also tell

people that don't want to do

psychedelics that there are other

pathways that are gentler that can have

they can have transcendent experiences.

Meditation's is good way, but that

generally takes a little bit longer for

people. I have found that breath work is

very, very powerful and I've worked with

that for years and you can have a

transcendent experience on breath work

where you get in touch with your deeper

part of your soul just by breathing

continuously, particularly in a guided

situation because you're energizing a

deeper part of your being and it and

your interior self and it's beginning to

emerge and that can scare people so they

stop breathing. But if you will keep

breathing and continue to go through it,

this is the best chance you'll ever have

to have an authentic connection with

your soul. Well, not the best chance

you'll ever have, but it's a really good

way to do it that's safe and nothing to

be afraid of. You're just breathing. So,

I encourage people that the psychedelics

might scare them, just don't believe

that there there any meaning in life,

that there's any interior thing to look

at. The interior universe is every bit

as expansive as the physical universe if

not more expansive. And just we're

Americans here and and and people don't

often times do these journeys into their

interior. You obviously have, Jay. You

spent 3 years as a monk and so your own

experiments, you might say, or

adventures in this part of your psyche

are are probably very amazing. One of my

friends who always wants me to try to

explain it to him in rational terms. His

name is Alec and I say, "Alec, listen, I

can talk about this, but if you really

want to know what I'm talking about, you

have to do the experiment yourself

because you're skeptical and you're

asking me to prove it to you. And I'll

say, "I can prove it to you if you will

do the meditation, if you'll do the

breath work, if you do the psychedelics,

you can know there's an authentic

spiritual reality that you don't believe

is there." It's like that story about

the guy that lost his key under the and

he's looking under the lamp post because

well, that's where the light is, but

it's not there, clearly. So, if you're

asking people to become enlightened by

just rationality, that's looking for it

in the wrong place. You won't find it

there. The light isn't shining there.

>> You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic

term in the language you were using in

the Sanskrit is Antar Akasha, which

means inner sky

>> Mhm.

>> or inner universe as you were saying.

And it talks about in the same way as

the

the external galaxy we're so excited to

explore and send things to space and

figure out what's going on out there,

but the inner sky is as vast if not more

and as deep and profound and

unseen as that outer sky. And we don't

have that curiosity or that energy. I

wanted to ask you because I think one

thing I don't take for granted anymore,

John, is that

for those of us who have had spiritual

awakenings and spiritual journeys, and I

agree with you on the rational part. I

think the way you explained that is is

brilliant and and I couldn't agree with

you more.

Although I think sometimes we assume

that everyone wants to have that

experience or we assume everyone should

go for that experience. And I found that

I was lucky. I met people who

had had enlightened experiences and that

made me open up to the idea that A, it

was possible. B, it existed.

And C, it could happen for me. And there

was this feeling that I would meet

someone that I could tell was operating

in a different realm. They were happier.

They were more conscious. They were more

at peace with themselves and others.

They operated and

carried themselves differently and

because I got to see that witness that I

recognized that there was a difference

between observing them and observing

someone else. And that made me believe

that there was another reality that I

could want to pursue. But I think for a

lot of people they hear us and they hear

people and they say, "What's the point?

Like I'm trying to I'm paying bills. I'm

trying to survive. Like

>> Will that help me be more richer and

more successful?

>> Right.

>> Cuz they're pursuing a different path.

>> So you're saying that actually tapping

into this alternate reality

has benefits in the material world as

well.

>> Of course it does.

>> Yeah.

>> We started this conversation off by

talking about, well,

uh capitalism and consciousness, you

know, I I don't know how to see how

those things could fit together back

then. You know, I remember the you read

the Herman Hesse book Siddhartha?

>> Yes, of course, yeah.

>> And and so he did it backwards. Most

people uh

come to spirituality later, he came to

it at the beginning. But then he he took

what he had learned and he could apply

it in the in the material world, so to

speak, and it helped him be a better it

helped him make him wealthy because he

kind of had his interior together, which

made it easier. But a lot of times

people are not interested in the

interior interior part because they feel

like, well, it I don't see how that's

going to help me in my day-to-day

pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power,

whatever that But those things,

ultimately, what people will discover

when they get those, that they don't

really make them happy.

What makes people happy, ultimately, is

love. And uh

having that uh connection

to other people, to ourselves, and to

the larger universe that we're part of.

>> Mhm.

>> It's not that money or fame or power are

bad things. It's just that they're most

people get addicted to them if they

pursue them, and then they forget about,

like Siddhartha did in his book, he

forgot about, oh, I forgot as he got

deeper in the material plane, he got

lost in it. So I think

people that are dedicating their lives

to

to making money or or

pursuing something in the material

plane, if that's what their whole life

is devoted to, they will find when they

get if they when they get it, that it's

not really what they wanted all along.

And so if you can do these things

together, you pursue your own interior

spirituality, your own interior growth

as a as a as a person, the spiritual

part of you, as that develops and opens

and awakens, then you're going to

appreciate the external world even more

because it's beautiful. And but most

people don't even notice it's beautiful

because they're locked in their heads,

they're locked in their own egos, and so

they're they're trapped there to a

certain extent. But once you can begin

to break out or or help that ego get

That's what I like to say, the ego is a

it it should be a servant, not the

master. And once you get the ego kind of

where it needs to be and not driving the

car but in the backseat,

um

then you're in a position to have all

have it all, which is to be to achieve

the success that you want in life while

having the relationships that you want,

while having your own spiritual joy

because that's what it is. As you awaken

to that part of your being, you

experience a lot more love and joy, and

those are those give our souls

satisfaction.

>> I was reflecting on this recently, this

idea that the material world is always

made it about the pursuit of and having

certain things

as being the goal of life or as being

the success of life. And I was

reflecting on how spiritually,

especially in Eastern traditions,

whether you have something or you don't,

i.e. money, fame, power, control,

is actually irrelevant. It's whether you

have freedom from envy, freedom from

ego, freedom from

anger, freedom from lust, freedom from

illusion because

you could have everything in the world

and be envious and feel like you don't

have anything.

>> I've been fortunate to know several

billionaires, for example, where they

have, you know, everything uh they could

possibly want in the material plane.

But

they're comparing themselves to people

that are even more successful, richer,

and they feel like somehow or another

life's is complete, and it's like you

can have anything you want materially,

and it's your envy that's making you

unhappy.

>> Correct.

>> Well, I have found it to be a very

useful habit is is when

my friends or anyone has prosperity and

success for me to be truly happy for

them, rather than uh than feel envious

of them. I feel like envy is a a very

insidious trap that spoils the joy of

life.

>> Absolutely. And and I would say to

people, you either have the choice to

envy people or study them. And if you

envy them, then you don't get anywhere.

But when you study them, you have the

opportunity to

>> I like that a lot. I'm going to I'm

going to I'm take That's a takeaway for

me today. Thank you.

>> do. Yeah, absolutely. I've I focused on

that heavily because I always reflected

on I was in the same way as you,

appreciating others, admiring others,

but I saw the key part was studying them

and wanting to learn from them. And all

of a sudden, you didn't

feel that they were that far away. You

felt so much closer to them and closer

to that success for yourself and that

abundance for yourself. Going to your

point on ego death, I I love that you

use that language. Could you describe

what an ego death is for someone who may

be new to the idea or or may not be

aware of how you're referring to it?

>> We're very attached to our ego. I mean,

we in fact think that's what we are. We

believe we are the ego. We believe we're

body and we're an ego. And so, the ego

is the part of us that feels like it's

separate. Hey,

I'm John.

You're you. That's a book.

This is water.

This is a microphone. These are

different than me. They're not me.

And so,

we have this great feeling of

individuality and separateness that is

it's so real to us that we think that's

actually reality.

And so,

with the ego death or

a better way to put it cuz death is a

scary word is a sort of your ego

disappearing. You don't have that sense

of separation any longer. You don't

identify with your separation. And the

metaphor I like to use is is like

clothes. So, I have clothes on today.

They're not me. I'm not my clothes. And

I'm I'm going to go home and I'm going

to take my clothes off.

Maybe I'll wear them again, maybe I

won't. I'll wear something different the

next day. That's not who I am. I don't

identify with my clothes. Most people

don't, but some people do. Some people

actually feel really, really attached to

their clothing. And so, I'm not my

clothes and I'm not my ego. And until

you can actually

have an experience where

your ego is dissolved, you won't really

understand what I'm talking about. But

one of the great things about it is is

that once you realize you're not your

ego, you can also begin to let go of

your fear of death.

>> Mhm.

>> Because what we are at the deeper part

of our being is

the one self, the one being. We all are.

So, in a sense, we are immortal,

but not our egos aren't. So, that's the

thing that freaks people out. It's like

I always like to say it's another

metaphor, it's like

when I die, I'm going to

Oh, yes. I remember. Here I am again.

And I'm not John Mackey. I'm not that

ego. I'm not that The body's going to

dissolve and disappear and

but the essence of what we are,

the the one being, the one self is

there, always. And always has been and

always will be. And as as you realize

that, it's like our greatest fear, of

course, is death. And you can begin to

let that go. And by the way, once you

begin to let that fear go, then you can

really see your life as this adventure.

Whatever happens, it doesn't matter.

It's just like a dream. In fact, I do

think life is really a dream. And I

think that's a good metaphor to

understand what we're doing here. I

Often times will describe it as um have

you had the experience of a lucid dream

before? So in a lucid dream, we we

become conscious that we're dreaming.

And once you become conscious that

you're actually dreaming,

you can begin to take control of the

dream and you can you can you can create

it however you want it to be. And once

you begin to realize that you're in a

dream here,

then you can become conscious and then

you can begin to create a happy dream, a

dream of love, a forgiveness, a dream of

on your own hero's journey so to speak,

a kindness, compassion. That dream

begins to change as you wake up. It

becomes a happier and happier dream

because that's the dream that you're

creating. I always tell my friends it's

like I believe in the multiverse and

it's like cuz when I get to a doom and

gloomer that says we're all going to

we're going to destroy everything, I

says, "Well,

yeah, I not me.

>> [laughter]

>> That's not my dream. My dream is going

to get better and better and better, but

the multiverse is real because all

possibilities are being realized and I

said, "There'll be some version of John

Mackey that goes down that horrible path

with you. I'm just letting you know

it'll be a different one than this guy."

>> [laughter]

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>> And I think C.S. Lewis wrote it best

that you don't have a soul, you are the

soul and you have a body.

>> Oh, yes, that's beautiful.

>> And yes, that's one of my favorite

favorite

>> C.S. Lewis fan.

>> Yeah, me too. And so, it's one of my

favorite favorite statements that you

don't have a soul, you are the soul and

you have a body. And I loved your

metaphor about the clothes. It reminds

me of a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which

talks about that just as we put on

clothes and take them off every day, the

soul takes on new bodies and takes them

off and takes on new ones.

>> Exactly.

>> And and that cycle continues. And I

think that there's such a liberation to

that acceptance as well. In that ego

death, as you called it, that if I start

to think I am my clothes or I am my car,

imagine how hard life becomes.

>> Yes.

>> Imagine how difficult it becomes if

every time your clothes get a bit dirty

or there's a little rip on them or

there's, you know, someone knocks into

your car. And we even say that when

someone hits our car, we say, "Someone

hit me."

>> Oh, yeah. I never thought about that. We

do, don't we?

>> They

They hit our car, but we go, "I got hit

today."

Uh and and so, it's so interesting how

quickly we identify with our material

casing.

>> Yes.

>> And and what we operate in. And I wanted

to ask you that how does that then

translate to business and to building a

life in the dream, as you called it?

When you're now trying to operate in the

dream, how does that realization

actually help? Are you now visioning in

alternate realities? Are you now

strategizing differently? Like, how does

that make you approach building Whole

Foods differently? Because Whole Foods

is very tangible. It's very real.

>> The way I think about it and I The first

chapter in the book is called The Game

of Life. And the very last chapter in

the book is called The Infinite Game.

And if the one self, the one being has

always existed,

and the the and I think Hinduism talks

about this in the Vedanta, we're in the

one in the stillness and in pure

beingness and bliss,

and then

the Big Bang occurs and we explode into

the multiverse on our adventures and

then we come back together again. And

that's that's the infinite game. We do

it and we'll always do it. And so once

you realize that it's all a game, that

every possibility is realized, we're

just going to infinitely create, then

you can you can frame it up so there's

just this

fun game. Games are to be fun and that's

a better way to live. It's living your

life

as it's fun and loving and joyful and

that you're creating.

We are very happy when we're creating

things. Watch children, they're

endlessly creative, they're endlessly

playful. I always tell people, you want

to make a friend with a child, all you

have to do is one thing. Just play with

them. When you play with a child, they

start to trust you. They begin to find

that you're you're fun to hang around

with. You're not like all those other

mean grown-ups. I just think that is a

good metaphor for existence itself, the

metaphor of the game. But an infinite

game that we are creating ourselves and

playing, eternal play, because you have

an infinite amount of time. I mean,

there's no beginning, no end, there

never will be. So, yeah.

Find your own, connect with your soul,

find out what your soul wants to do and

then do it. And have fun and and and do

good in the world.

>> I think play is a great analogy because

play is not mental.

And I think when you say find out what

your soul wants to do, I think the hard

part is we're we're up here going

well, I don't know what my passion is, I

don't know what to do. And I'm and I'm

speaking on behalf of I know people's

genuine troubles when they're listening

to the show and they're like, well, Jay,

look, I don't know what my passion is, I

don't know where to start, I don't know

what skills I have and these are all

mental

arithmetic exercises. Whereas what

you're saying is not on that level. So,

how do we get out of our heads?

>> Here's the thing.

Those are clues.

The best way is to go directly to the

source, vis-a-vis

breath work, meditation, do spiritual

exercises. However,

one clue is the things that give you

joy.

That's a clue to who you are and what

and what your own heart is calling you

to do. So, I often I get asked all the

time. I'll probably get asked that

tonight when I'm busy talking to this

university is like, well,

you know, how do you know what your

heart wants you to do? And I said, you

know you're on the path when you're

happy.

When you're listening to your heart and

it's bringing you joy and discovery and

creativity and play, you're you're on

your path. You

And when you it's when you're not

experiencing those things that you're

not on the path. And so, the things that

that draw you in like for me when I I

moved into that co-op and I had my food

awakening and all I was interested in

Well, I just wanted to learn about food.

I want to learn about agriculture and

and and organic and regenerative and

sustainable and and natural foods and it

was like I couldn't get enough of it

because I was so interested in it. So,

those are all clues to what makes your

heart sing.

That's who you're being. That's That's

in this dream. That's what you're trying

to create and you can get in touch with

that through spiritual exercises. In my

case, you know, I my parents wanted me

to be a professional and my my I talk

about in the book, my mother died

feeling like I was a failure.

She died 1987 because for her, her son

was a grocer.

And for that, I was so downwardly

mobile. I never graduated from college.

I just I have 120 hours of electives. I

just studied philosophy and religion,

whatever I was interested in. Got a

great education. I just didn't get

credentialed. And for her, the

credentials are what really mattered.

But I was I was off on my pursuit. I I

was on my hero's journey and it was

giving me happiness and joy and that's

how you know.

>> How do you know the difference between

the happiness and joy and the discomfort

that comes even in the happy and joyful

path versus the discomfort

that is not your path? Because I think

when people think of like, am I happy

and joyful,

then things get a bit harder or like

you're saying, there were days when

Whole Foods could have failed like and

it doesn't get easy and then you're

like, oh well, is this bringing me joy

now? So how do

>> We have to introduce another character

to the story. I mean, we talked about

the ego. But part of our ego is what

what I and others call the internal

critic.

The The ego really doesn't It judges

everyone. The ego's constantly judging.

That's the part that's envious. That's

the part that's angry. That's the part

part that somebody cuts you off in

traffic, you know, you you say curse

words. And that's the one that's judging

us all the time. Like As I got deeper

into my own spiritual journey, that I

saw that the critical life issue for me

was

I

am not worthy of love because I'm not

perfect.

I do things that I'm regret I do

sometimes identify with the ego and I do

things that later on I think that was a

I shouldn't have said that. That was and

I But then I have to go, you know,

practice forgiveness to move through it.

There is that part of us that is

constantly judging and it That's what it

does all the time. It judges everyone

else

and it judges and mostly judges

ourselves and then those judgments for

ourselves we project out into the world

into the dream and then the dream is

manifesting all the time. Our emotions,

our thoughts are always creating the

dream. Here's an interesting thing about

the dream.

We're always a character in our own

dreams, right?

Who are the other characters that seem

to be acting independently of us? We're

the dreamer.

How can they do things different? How do

they And how's that even happen?

And once you begin to realize, oh my

god, I'm the dreamer. I'm creating those

characters as well.

And they're they're representations of

some of my other inner thoughts,

emotions, judgments, and whatnot.

Once you realize that, then it's like

you you stop being a victim in your own

dream. So, if if these things are not

working out for you the way you want,

that the internal critic wants to

project it out into the dream and say,

"I'm a victim. These people are are

should be treating me differently. I

feel righteous in being angry." But

again, you're putting out those emotions

that are not furthering your life and

not bringing you joy and happiness. And

then you get you sort of get stuck in

it. You get trapped in it. And I think

that's that's the human condition in a

way. The spiritual journey is to awaken

to realize, "Oh my gosh, it is a dream.

I'm the dreamer. I'm a character in the

dream. And so then, how do I treat all

the other characters the way I want to

be treated?"

>> Mhm.

>> And that's with love, compassion,

forgiveness, thoughtfulness. Then that

dream begins to change.

>> Is that's the energy we put out?

>> But you know, it's a it's a path because

we will forget. Here's Here's what I

always tell people, you'll forget.

You'll go back and you'll start

listening to the ego and the internal

critic and you'll judge and you'll but

you'll forget that, "Oh, yes, I'm I

remember now. It's It's It's It's my

spiritual path. It's just a dream." I

guess one of the big lessons I learned,

Jay, is that the past is doesn't really

exist. The past is gone. All that's real

is right now in this moment. That is

what's real. And in this moment, you can

choose again. In this moment, you can

choose love. In this moment, you can

choose forgiveness.

And then if you forget,

that's okay. Because that's the past.

And now in this next moment, you can

choose again. We have this freedom.

That's our freedom. We have freedom in

the moment to choose love, to choose

peace, to choose kindness, to choose

forgiveness, to be alive, to be playful.

And it's okay if we forget. If you get

down on yourself for forgetting, then

you're you're empowering that ego to

judge you as not perfect. But when

you're sharing love in the moment, you

are perfect.

So, you can be perfect in the next

moment by just choosing again to be

present in the moment. And in the

moment, there is love.

>> How did you transfer that energy? Like,

I'm imagining you as you're building

this

huge company, before you're walking to a

meeting, when you're leading a staff

meeting, when you're meeting

stakeholders,

how was this translating into reality?

What does that look like

when you're leading a company? Because

you may not be saying these words, but

you're trying to live them.

>> First of all, I didn't do it perfectly.

I didn't stay in the love space all the

time.

I got angry, I got judgmental, I got

afraid, I all the you know, fear, envy,

they're they're they're all there. I I

didn't claim that I did Whole Foods in

any kind of enlightened way all the

time. I always said Whole Foods was my

ashram. That was the place where I got

to practice.

>> Mhm.

>> I get to practice forgiveness. I get to

practice being the returning to love. I

did learn some good things. We did I

always tell people,

if you want to have a more loving

business, the single thing I practice

that I most recommend, we would end all

our meetings at Whole Foods with

appreciations.

The the two things that can shift that

make the mental shift, emotional shift,

the spiritual shift, one is gratitude. I

start my days with gratitude because it

opens the heart. And then you practice

forgiveness when you feel like

somebody's wronged you, you practice

forgiveness. But most importantly, we

would end our meetings with

appreciations.

>> Mhm.

>> That's incredibly powerful. It's very

hard for people to stay in a judgmental

frame when you've just appreciated them

in an authentic way. I always say people

can know the difference between somebody

who's flattering them

because they can feel like they want

something from me versus somebody who's

genuinely appreciating us. It's very

hard to keep your heart closed to that.

And so, as we practiced appreciations in

our meetings, I could see the love in

the larger team, in the larger group

spreading. We did it at every level. And

that one technique is very, very

powerful. I always encourage people that

are running businesses or even just

running a team, if you end your meetings

with appreciations, you will find

consciousness begins to shift in the

dream.

>> I'm so glad you brought that up. I

remember when I was a monk, one of our

practices after completing a service or

completing an offering that we were

doing, whether it was

you know, feeding the homeless or or

serving in our local communities,

whoever led that project would go around

the room and honor and appreciate each

person who was serving with them.

And so, when I started my company, I

would do that at like our Christmas or

holiday dinners or at at our team events

or whatever, I'd go around the room and

individually speak uniquely about each

person in the room who is doing

something, and people found it so

strange, and to me it was the most

normal thing I'd done growing up, and

and it's become such a beautiful ritual

that we have because

I find it so beautiful to reflect on

people's individual contribution and the

value that they've brought and to remind

them of it.

>> You're seeing their beauty. You're

seeing the the God part of them, and you

are helping them to see it.

>> Mhm.

>> Because as you express that

authentically, they can feel your love

for them. And they begin to wonder,

maybe I'm actually more lovable than I

thought.

>> Yes. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. And and I

think

we feel the most unloved when we feel

unseen.

And so, if you really want to make

someone feel loved, you can only do that

by making them feel seen. When people

feel seen for who they are and what they

contribute and what they bring and how

much they have to give and share, then

they not only do they see it in

themselves, but they feel truly seen, so

they feel truly loved.

>> That's why the what the greatest gift we

can usually give anyone is just to be

present for them in the moment, not lost

in our thoughts. It's not, you know, we

we tend to if we listen, we start

thinking about what we want to talk

about or what we're going to say, and we

lose presence. But the greatest gift

when you can just be fully present for

someone,

you are loving them by just being

present for them, and they feel that

presence. So, I absolutely agree. It's

It's It's

they feel seen. I I like that expression

of it.

>> I don't want anyone who's listening or

watching to be under any false pretenses

that I'm always operating from this

space either. Like, I I love what you

said about there are days when you're

agitated, and there are days when you're

frustrated, and there are days when it's

not love, it's fear, it's insecurity,

it's it's results. Like, that's the

normal human experience, and I think

what I definitely learned is

and I love that you used the word ashram

in that sense,

uh because that's exactly what an ashram

is. An ashram is a place to practice, a

place to learn, a place to heal. It's a

hospital, not a results center, you

know? I think a lot of

>> [laughter]

>> people don't realize. I remember

one of my first days in the monastery,

my teacher told me, he said, "Don't

forget this is a hospital. Like,

everyone next to you has got an illness,

and so do you. And the moment you start

thinking everyone around you is perfect

is when you won't like this place at

all, because you came here seeking

perfection, when actually you should

have come here seeking practice."

>> Obviously, you found a good found a good

teacher.

>> I do. I'm very lucky. I have I have a

great set of teachers. Um but I love the

the use of

the language appropriately. It functions

so well, and I love that we're having a

spiritual conversation about business.

This is so fulfilling to me. So, thank

you so much for for this opportunity,

because it's such a new take. We've had

business leaders on the podcast before,

but this is a very different thing.

When you're thinking about growth, I

think going back to that conscious

capitalism point earlier, I do think a

lot of spiritual people still feel hung

up about being ambitious, about being

results-driven,

about being focused on a goal. They feel

in some way deep inside of them we have

that wiring that if you're striving for

more, you're in some way ungrateful,

unsatisfied.

>> could be desired. Yeah, so let's talk

about that.

>> If that's your ashram, it's a more

difficult path.

You know the old saying, it's easy to be

a saint on a mountaintop.

I'm talking about being a saint while

you're building a business. That's not

so easy to do because um happens.

And how you respond to that, that's your

opportunity is how you choose to respond

to the circumstances you find in in your

dream. How do you How will you show up?

And I think the key is you won't always

show up well. You'll make some mistakes,

but don't have to get lost there because

you can remember who you are. Remember

who you are. And in that next moment you

can choose differently. We can snap back

to it right now, whenever we want to.

And that took me a long time to learn.

Sometimes I might be lost in the dream

for for days and days, even weeks at a

time. And then I'd remember, "Oh my god.

Look, I've been such a jerk." And then

in instead of bang beating myself up for

not being perfect, it's like, "Yes, but

this next moment I no longer I am

present again.

I'm back into the love space."

>> People often ask me like why like how

how do you function in business and

obviously now I live in LA and

everything else and it's I actually

relish the battle because I'm reminded

every day that I'm not a saint when I'm

here. Whereas on the mountaintop, I

could potentially believe that I've made

>> think you're a saint, yeah, you've

already you've already forgotten.

>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter]

>> The ego's always try It's like, "Oh,

you're going to do this spiritual thing?

I'm going to be the very best there is.

>> Exactly. Exactly.

>> That's the ego trying to maintain

control, so to speak.

>> I love the idea that I live in a

universe that constantly holds up a

mirror to me because I'm constantly

reminded of my desires, my lower nature,

my higher nature, my the complexities of

it. And I love that battle. I relish it

because that's what reminds me to stay

on the journey and stay on the path and

stay committed. And I wanted to ask you

like when you

had moments of difficulty

where you feel you are moving away from

love in business and away from

compassion,

did you come up with any practices or

habits or tools that

locked you back in?

>> People would also oftentimes when you

have a difficult situations, let's say

you have to fire somebody

or you have a business that you're going

to shut down. These are very painful,

very very difficult things to do. You

know people are going to be hurt.

And because we know that people are

going to be hurt, then the call and the

only right call is compassion. But you

have to think about what's the

collective good for all and you have to

make some difficult decisions because

you're always thinking, "What's my

win-win-win solution? Good for me, good

for you, good for all of us." And that

sometimes means you have to do difficult

things.

But it's how you do that makes all the

difference and how you show up. If you

show up in your heart with love and

compassion,

you're probably going to have a even

though it's difficult, it's probably

going to go well and you'll maintain a

relationship because they can feel your

genuine love for them.

If you do it with judgement

and anger, it's like, you know, you're

just getting what you deserve, then

you've missed it. That's

another opportunity, we'll say, to to be

in the heart space and do the difficult

things. It's like it's a skill that you

have to practice. And if you practice

it, you will get better at it. And

you'll still to mistakes, but then

you'll learn from those mistakes. If you

just continue to view it all as an

opportunity to learn and grow and

spiritually evolve and that you will

make some mistakes and you will learn

from them.

>> Mhm.

>> And it's like you were talking about

learning from those that, you know,

instead of envying them, you you study

them. Well, it's the same thing with you

you learn from your own mistakes. One

practice that's very helpful here, Jay,

is to have people that love you

that you can talk about all the stuff

with and they will tell you the truth.

>> Mhm.

>> They'll say, "John,

you you were really harsh in that. You

You You were not You were not in a

loving space when you did that, were

you?" And it's like, "No, I really

wasn't." And he says, "Well, what are

you going to do about it?" And I said,

"I'm going to go apologize." I I really

do think we underestimate the power of

forgiveness. We will make mistakes,

mess up,

fess up. When you make a mistake, when

you hurt somebody, when you're not in

your heart, when you're in an angry,

judgmental space,

the next moment you can choose love and

part of choosing love is to go ahead.

The ego doesn't like to admit it made

mistakes. It doesn't like to apologize.

It doesn't like to ask for forgiveness.

But that will restore you into that love

flow. So, you have to be willing to go

ahead and admit that you're not perfect,

that you made mistakes and then as you

do that, you can then let go of it and

then you can return.

>> Yeah, John, you talk about the term

servant leadership and I feel like today

more than ever we don't really have good

role models of the

>> have it. We don't have it. Our

presidential race is certainly

>> it's so far [clears throat] away from

that and I feel like servant leadership,

compassionate leadership, conscious

leadership, all of these things you'd

hope are in business schools and

colleges and universities, but they're

not. And if it does come up, it comes up

because it's hey, it'll be profitable to

be this way or we still haven't got to a

place where people realize that

we should create businesses because

they'd be good for our kids and future

generations or we should create

something that positively impacts the

world. And we're still not there yet.

I'm going to

>> tell you something you probably never

thought about before. Who teaches in

medical schools?

>> Professors, I mean

>> They're doctors.

>> Yeah.

>> Who teaches in law schools? Lawyers.

>> Lawyers, right.

>> Who teaches in our business schools?

Not business people.

Uh they're intellectuals. They're

academics.

And it's not that that's bad. It's just

that they don't have the experience

of actually

leading. They have a theory about

leadership. There's a reason why medical

schools and and law schools actually

have real professionals that are

teaching them the skills that they need

to know. And I think it's part of where

we've gone wrong in business. We have

people that have almost no experience in

business teaching our students. So they

can't teach from actual experience of of

leadership. They don't really know about

it because they have never really done

it.

>> Yeah.

>> So that's one reform that we need to do.

There needs to be sort of a tradition, I

think, that uh if you're passing your

wisdom on, if you're if if you're a

retired business leader, that you should

be It's one reason I'm going to go speak

at this university tonight. I'm going to

be talking to business students and I'm

going to be sharing my experiences as we

talk about this book.

That's going to be invaluable to them

because that's not something they're

getting in an MBA program.

>> Obviously, the decision to sell to

Amazon was not one that you made

lightly.

>> No.

>> Explain what was hard, easy

about that decision.

>> the choice about, you know, where do you

start the story? And in this case, I

won't give the background for how we got

into this position, but the short answer

is Whole Foods is being attacked by

shareholder activist. Our our stock had

declined in the last couple of years,

and then a shareholder activist is

somebody that generally wants to make

change to get the stock price up, and

then they'll make they'll make money

doing that. So they're very short-term

focused. We had a shareholder activist

called Jana Partners.

They didn't want to work with us. They

just They said, "We're going to take

over your board and we're going to As

soon as we get our control of the board,

we're going to fire you,

fire other parts of the management team,

and then we're going to just sell the

business to the highest bidder, and

there's not anything you can do about

it." And left. And a little bit stronger

language than that. So, for me, it was

like

I kept asking this question. It was a

spiritual question.

What is the win-win-win solution here?

What is the best thing for all of our

stakeholders? How do our customers win?

How do our employees win? How do our

suppliers win? How do our investors win?

How do the communities that we're part

of win?

And we I looked at all the different

alternatives and I kept But I kept

asking that question. I really do

believe when you ask the question and

you stay on it and you keep asking your

soul for the answer,

that it it emerges. And

I remember waking up one morning and it

just popped into my brain, right when I

woke up, and I knew it was the right

answer. It said, "What about Amazon?"

Because it was kind of a crazy idea.

Amazon wasn't They didn't have any

grocery stores.

I'd met Jeff Bezos the year before at a

conference, and he and I had really kind

of hit it off. You know, we we had a lot

of common interests. Jeff was a He loved

to read science fiction and fantasy. We

shared that in common. He liked to scuba

dive. I've done a lot of scuba diving

around the world. He's an entrepreneur.

I'm an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs

generally can find lots of things to

talk about. Talk Talk about their

businesses. He was very interested in

Whole Foods.

We were on a panel together, and so I

really liked him. I admired what Amazon

had created, and Jeff is a one of the

smartest,

most creative people I've ever met.

We looked at other possibilities. Maybe

Warren Buffett would buy the company and

it'd be in friendly hands. He joked and

said, "I own Dairy Queen, and I eat junk

food. This isn't a good fit for me."

>> [laughter]

>> And we We talked to Albertsons, and we

realized, "Oh my god, they

they would That would be terrible for us

to be part of that company. Uh we

thought about going private, but then

you're taking on, you know, 12, 13

billion dollars on your balance sheet

and you have to pay that back and you

take and you have to pay interest on it.

The economy has a downturn like it did

in 2008, you might fail. And you're also

giving control of your business over to

private equity people and they'll have

different different motivations, just

make quick make money.

So, we didn't have a good answer and we

we The other answer was to fight Janna.

But Whole Foods needed time to turn

around his business. We needed time to

lower our prices. If you're selling

something for a dollar and all of a

sudden now you sell it for 90 cents, in

the short run,

your sales fall, your same-store sales

fall, your profits fall, and when you

have activists, you know, that want

immediate quick turnaround, then that's

not you we needed that takes a couple of

years before lower prices will help your

customers see, well, Whole Foods is

actually not whole paycheck any longer.

I I love the store and now it's more

affordable to shop there.

When it popped in my brain about Amazon,

we flew I we They were very interested

right from the beginning and we flew out

there and I met with Jeff and three of

his leaders and I had three of my

leaders. It was four on four and we

talked for about three hours just about

what we could do together. And they were

not They were not your typical corporate

types. These were extremely intelligent

people, very creative. We had They had a

lot of good ideas about what we could do

together.

And I remember when we left there, my

team and I went to a restaurant and

we're sitting around talking about it

and they said, "That was an incredible

conversation. Those guys were not

anything like I thought they would be.

They're so smart and they're so

creative. It'd be fun to work with them.

It'd be It'd be a blast." And then it

was like, "What do you think they liked

us, too?"

And it turned out they did and they flew

to Austin just a few days later and they

started due diligence and 6 weeks after

that initial meeting, we struck a deal.

And when people ask me, are you is you

have any regrets about selling to

Amazon? And the honest answer is,

you know,

given the circumstances, that was the

best solution. I regret that the

circumstances were such that that was

our best solution. But it was the best

solution. If I had to do it again under

the same circumstances, it would have

been far better than Janna selling us to

Albertsons or Kroger or some other

supermarket chain that wouldn't

understand our values, our culture.

Amazon has largely not completely, but

it's largely let Whole Foods keep its

culture and operate independently. Now

now it's with me gone in particular, 2

years now, they are they've made more

changes than they did when I was there,

partly because I resisted a lot of the

changes they wanted to do. Let me just

point out how it was a win-win-win. We

got to cut our prices significantly four

times in the first 2 years. It cost

Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars

for us to do that, but they think

long-term. They're willing to make that

investment, put Whole Foods on a sound

or long-term financial footing.

They increased the pay of every hourly

team member in Whole Foods within 30

days of the merger occurring. And that

cost them hundreds of millions of

dollars. So that was good for our team

members, good for our customers. It was

good for our suppliers because one thing

Amazon did was study every supplier we

had, and they discovered we had all

these suppliers they didn't know about

that they put into their amazon.com and

started selling their foods and their

products. And so it was a big boom. And

they didn't tell us we had to get rid of

anybody. They just studied and learned

from us. It was good for our investors

because the stock they you know, we sold

it for 30% more than it was before we

started talking to Amazon. And

it was good for the communities that we

were part of. Amazon did not change our

philanthropic activities for Whole Food

the Whole Planet Foundation or the Whole

Kids Foundation. In fact, they gave more

money to it. There were lots of taxes

paid to governments because of the

capital gains that were done. And so I

think about every one of the

stakeholders was better off as a result

of the Amazon merger.

But, was it it wasn't perfect. I did

fight with Amazon a lot. I would say

Whole Foods is a more heart-based

company. Amazon's a more professional

culture. Uh people are there to work

there for a while, get it on their

resume, and then get a higher-paying job

somewhere else. There's not as much

loyalty in that company. Whereas Whole

Foods, that that that's the thing that

surprised Amazon when they dug under the

hood at Whole Foods, it's like, "Wow,

you've had so many people working 20,

30, even 40 years here. How do you do

that?"

And I told them the truth. I said,

"Guys, if you want to if you want

longevity,

you just you give people two things.

Give them purpose. People need purpose.

They want to feel like their work is

contributing to making the world a

better place in some way or fashion or

helping people. And secondly, they want

to feel they're loved. They want to feel

they're cared for. So, if you give

people purpose and love,

yeah, why would they ever want to leave?

Professional cultures don't generally

give you one of those.

>> Yeah, and then when you

resign as CEO in 2021,

and you did a goodbye tour.

>> I left in 2022, so it's been 2 years

ago.

>> gave notice.

>> Right, right, right, right.

>> And I had a whole year of saying

goodbye.

>> Understood. But you were my favorite

CEO.

>> Oh, it was incredible.

>> So, did you go to every store?

>> No, that wasn't possible, but I got to

every region.

>> Right.

>> I did literally talk to tens of

thousands of team members. And what I

did for that whole year was just thank

people.

Thank you for what you've done for Whole

Foods. I mean, I got so much love from

people. It was a beautiful, beautiful uh

letting go. And I'm you know, still on

really good terms with the leadership

there. And and also, my gift to them

was, "You know what? I'm not meddling at

all. I'm not judging you." Are they

doing some things I don't agree with?

Tons of stuff. But, you know, you've got

to support the new leadership that comes

in, knowing that they got to make their

mark, and they've got to follow their

own their own hearts in a way. And also,

[clears throat] here's the thing, Jay.

I couldn't really do Love Life until I

gave up Whole Foods. That's what my

heart was telling me to do. It's like,

you're not I wasn't happy anymore at

Whole Foods. I was fighting with Amazon

some and I wasn't being creative

anymore. The the game, the playfulness

of it, the ability to create, that was

all kind of disappeared for me. I was

just running a huge corporation for

somebody else that wasn't the same kind

of

I didn't have the same kind of joy in

it. Remember how I said earlier, you

know when you're on the right path

because you're happy?

>> Yeah.

>> I wasn't happy. I loved Whole Foods

and I but I wasn't experiencing that

same joie de vivre that I had

before that was sold. And so but it was

hard for me to let go of it cuz I loved

it so much.

>> Yeah.

>> But when I did let it go, then the new

possibilities emerged.

>> You said something beautiful there about

what it takes to keep people purpose in

love. I want to ask you for all the

entrepreneurs that are listening,

startups, new companies, founders, large

companies,

what is your best advice on hiring and

attracting good people?

>> I've always been good at attracting good

people because I have a lot of passion,

a lot of purpose, a lot of charisma and

people are drawn to that like moths to

flames. But I've never been very good at

hiring people and I I believe people's

weaknesses come out of their strengths

and one of my strengths is I really see

the beauty in people. I see the goodness

in people and that sometimes makes me a

little bit blind to things that are not

as good as

>> saying I can relate to you in so many

ways.

>> I learned was is that I had other people

on my team that had really good

detectors. Particularly my chief

financial officer, Glenda Flanagan and I

she was so much better at hiring than I

was.

So I just learned to kind of trust her.

It's like if Glenda was she didn't think

they were going to be good, I I learned

the hard way. If I hired him anyway, I'd

regret it. I really do believe that you

need to create a team. CEOs get and

founders get way too much credit. They

get too much credit and too much blame.

It's you're always doing it in a team.

If you look behind Steve Jobs or an Elon

Musk or a Jeff Bezos. Remember I told

you how great that Amazon team was. And

Jeff was brilliant. So were all those

other people working there. There's just

a lot of super smart people working for

Amazon. Highly creative people. So Jeff

was able to attract and build a great

team. And so you're kind of no better

than your team.

>> Mhm.

>> And I was good at attracting good

people, but I wasn't good at discerning

who was a good cultural fit or whose

weaknesses weren't going to take them

down and and harm the organization. I

depended on the other people to make

those calls.

>> What would be your best advice for

firing someone?

>> People procrastinate on firing for a

couple of reasons. One is that they

don't want to hurt the person.

And secondly, they don't want to feel

guilty about it. So my best advice is

Whole Foods had an interesting practice.

I make a distinction between people you

need to get rid of because they don't

fit culturally

and those who are just struggling at the

job. Particularly, what I learned is

that when you often times people would

get promoted because they had done a

good job at a lower level, right? So

they're ready for the you think they're

ready for the next step. For many

people, they're not ready for that next

step.

And then they get fired. And what we had

at Whole Foods is called recycling.

And it was like, you know what? You were

really successful at your previous job.

I want you to go back there because

you're not happy, you're struggling, and

I want you to go back and then you'll

get an opportunity in the future.

>> That's fantastic.

>> And if their egos couldn't handle that,

you knew they needed to go. But the

really good ones would would have say,

"Yeah, I am struggling. I want to step

back, but I'll show you. I'm going to

learn. I'm going to be better. I'm I'm

going to get promoted again." Those that

later on got promoted again, they were

great because they took their failure,

so to speak, as a learning opportunity

to grow.

And so then they became more effective

leaders. So my advice in letting people

go is you have to do it for the good of

the company. And if you're not willing

to do it, I used to tell myself cuz I

didn't I never enjoyed doing I was

always challenged for me. But it was

like if you're not willing to do this

and you should step aside. Because this

is what needs to happen. And if you're

not willing to do that, they're not a

very good leader. So you have to do what

you really know is best for the

organization. Other people are counting

on you

to make good decisions and and build a

great company. And if as Steve Jobs used

to say, which I really like what Steve

would say, he'd say

A-listers hire other A-listers.

B-listers hire C-listers.

Because they hire people that aren't as

good as them because it makes them feel

better about themselves. Good leaders

hire people as good or better than

themselves and are not threatened by

their strengths because they know that's

what'll make the organization better.

I happen to agree with that philosophy.

So you want to hire the A-listers. And

if you have to fire people, that's

regrettable.

Also, one of the takeaways there is be

more careful in who you hire so you

don't have to fire.

>> John, it's been such a joy talking to

you today. Honestly, I've had such a

great time and I feel like we've talked

about everything from spirituality to

business to habits to mindfulness. And

we end every episode of On Purpose with

a final five. And these have to be

answered in one word or one sentence

maximum. So John Mackey, these are your

final five. The first question is what

is the best advice you've ever heard or

received? Follow your heart.

Second question, what is the worst

advice you've ever heard or received?

>> I don't know.

>> [laughter]

>> Question number three, how do you define

your current purpose?

>> My current purpose is to fully awaken to

love

and to share that love

with everyone I encounter.

>> Question number four, how do you define

love?

>> Love

is the essence of beingness.

>> And fifth and final question we ask is

to every guest who's ever been on the

show, if you could create one law that

everyone in the world had to follow,

what would it be?

>> Be kind.

>> Everyone, the book is called The Whole

Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and

Capitalism. John Mackey, uh co-founder

and former CEO of Whole Foods Market.

John, it's been such a

true pleasure to have you in the studio

here today and uh I hope you come back

for many, many more and congratulations

on an incredible journey, incredible

book, and really excited to see what you

continue to do with everything that

you're building with Love Life. So,

>> Thank you, Jay. It's been a It's been a

pleasure. This has been fun. And I'm

into I'm into having fun, so this has

been very fun for me. So, thanks so much

for for having me here.

>> Thank you, John. Thank you.

>> If you loved this episode, you'll love

my conversation with Airbnb founder

Brian Chesky on how to tap into your

creative potential and the number one

thing people get wrong about success.

>> The best people in your life will be

people who see potential in you that you

didn't see in yourself.

And I often wonder