you say that children don't impact our

happiness positively I mean that's a

data what are you going to do and that

kind of got me worried I have to say Dr

tally Sherritt a leading expert on human

decision making optimism and emotion her

Ted Talk has received over 14 million

views I'm going to talk to you about

optimism kids and children their

happiest and the most optimistic then it

goes down and reaches Rock Bottom in

your midlife

laughs

I'm 30 now so I'm heading right down to

Rock Bottom as we speak

um any advice yes absolutely so one of

the startling things is you talk about

how one tiny move up on the optimism

scale is worth an extra 33 000 a year in

salary it's quite something so Optimus

this is what they usually do if

something went well they usually

interpret that as something about them

that caused this positive outcome

pessimists do the exact opposite I got

the job but really because they didn't

have any other candidates is that

negative explanatory style the road to

depression there's a really tight link

between depression and pessimism the

question becomes well how do I enhance

optimism so there's a few ways to do it

I was thinking that everything you do is

for happiness the happiness is actually

one of three factors that matter so one

is happiness the second is meanings and

then there's a third Factor that's also

really interesting which is

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[Music]

tally

[Music]

on the back of your book here the

optimism biased it says you're one of

the most Innovative neuroscientists at

work today

how would you sort of Define or

categorize your own professional

background

so I'm I guess I call myself a cognitive

neuroscientist which is really a mix of

Psychology and Neuroscience and I'm

mixing behavioral economics as well

um so it's it's really a mix of of all

of that so I'm interested in how why

human behave the way that they do

um and why do they have the thoughts

that they have and the feelings that

they have and I think to understand that

you do want to understand what's going

on inside the brain

um but then there's other fields that

give you a lot of really interesting

insights including psychology

um and behavioral economics even things

like law as well sociology philosophy so

it's it's really a kind of

interdisciplinary

adventure and you studied both

neuroscience and psychology at

University and posts grad yeah so I did

my undergrad in economics and psychology

right and in fact I did that because at

the time Neuroscience was not available

for an undergrad degree in Israel in the

whole of the country uh so that wasn't

even an option yes this was a kind of a

long time ago

[Laughter]

um and then for my PhD I did cognitive

Neuroscience which is neuroscience and

psychology mixed together what was

compelling on a personal level to you

about studying those topics why of all

the things you could have pursued why

those things then very early on I was

just really interested in human behavior

right it's about understanding yourself

but also understanding other people

around you

um and you know I think it's one of the

most intriguing topics and and the brain

was kind of a mysterious kind of organ

that is orchestrating all of that

um so I think it was just in an interest

in the world around you and people in it

oh there's some like you know when you

started studying neuroscience and

psychology were there some like

fundamentals about the nature of life

and the nature of human beings that um

I'm ensure there's so many of them but

were there any like real fundamentals

that were

um debunked or reversed as it relates to

your own personal perspective whether

it's about personal responsibility or

about

um an agency or autonomy about how much

control we have about how much influence

we have over our happiness were there

anything foundational that had a real

impact on your personal life

you know there's one thing that recently

is just it's just something that I

recently changed my mind on and that was

actually while writing the current book

that I'm writing which I'm writing

together with Cass Einstein

um who is the co-author of nudge and it

was actually in fact about happiness

because and I remember this clearly I

was in a workshop at the LSC and they

did a survey they asked who thinks that

happiness is the most important thing

right that everything you do is for

happiness and you know everyone had to

stand on a scale if you think like it's

all about happiness stand here and if

you think it's not at all stand here and

I was standing here I was thinking

anything that we do we do for happiness

and that all that and that matters and

while writing this book actually we both

came to the conclusion and for me it was

a change of mind

the happiness is actually one of three

factors that matter

um so one is happiness the second is

meaning

a lot of things you do because it gives

you meaning and it doesn't necessarily

give you happiness sometimes the two go

hand in hand right but sometimes it

doesn't

um so you could do work that's

meaningful and it doesn't necessarily

give you happiness and sometimes it does

and then there's a third Factor that's

also really interesting which is called

a psychological rich life which is

basically variety

a lot of people just do things for

diversity for variety to try a lot of

different things and again sometimes it

goes hand in hand with meaning and

happiness but sometimes it doesn't and

that kind of explains why many times we

make choices that we understand is not

necessarily going to gain us more

happiness but it will gain us some other

thing one of these two other things that

together I think is what brings a good

life

right and that that is something I think

I changed my mind on that it's we're not

actually motivated for happiness

um probably defined as a good feeling

kind of joy

why variety why do humans care about

having Variety in their life

I mean there's kind of the unconscious

evolutionary reason give me that one

um so I think it's exploration right to

move forward both as an individual and

as a society we have to explore a lot of

different things

some of these things are not necessarily

going to give you happiness immediately

or for you at all but a lot of times if

you explore a lot of things you will

find something that is going to be very

important maybe for yourself maybe for

our species I always give kind of you

know the really simple example of

um our ancestors leaving Africa to

explore the rest of the world right they

had I mean why would they do that I mean

either they thought there was something

better for them to find right and it was

probably very hard to do but that's just

kind of an example of exploration right

you're trying different things

um and I I can see it in my own life

right I often do something and then I

kind of okay I had enough with this

let's try something else and so variety

is kind of a factor that I'm trying to

maximize it's kind of a balance right

it's exploration and exploitation right

so you need to do a little bit of

exploitation because you found something

that works and something that you're

good at you don't want to just leave it

be but on the other hand if you just

stick with one thing you may be missing

a whole other a lot of different things

like farming and hunting it's like the

analogy I think from that book who Moved

My Cheese when I think about

um variety my brain was going well I

know some people that get so caught up

in their comfort zones that they never

go exploring and so the the thought that

we'd be motivated or fulfilled by

variety by new things by Adventure

seems to sit in conflict with a lot of

people that I know that are like stuck

in a situation and um maybe not happy

but they're they're more confident than

known than they are leaving that place

and and uh venturing out right because

exploration is risky because there's

uncertainty you don't know what's going

to happen risk means that there's a high

likelihood of both good and bad and you

just don't know where it's going to go

um and so that can cause fear

um uncertainty is a state that usually

people don't like and don't enjoy

um and that's definitely something that

keeps you in place and in fact one of

the kind of points that we make is that

um it seems that people are not making

enough change in their life

um that a lot of times if people think

about changing something in their life

maybe it's a relationship maybe it's a

profession it could be something stupid

like you know the color of your hair or

something like that

um there's a great

um fun little study that was uh

conducted by the freakonomic uh Stephen

Levy what he did he wanted to see if on

average making a change when you think

you might want to make a change this is

not just like oh I think you should get

divorced when you're not even thinking

about it but when you're thinking about

a specific change

on average are you more likely to be

happy if you go ahead with a change or

not right and this is a tricky thing to

study because normally you could say

well let's test people let's ask them

how happy they are before and after they

decide to make a change after they made

a change and then also let's do the same

for people who didn't make a change and

and see who's happier that's not going

to work because people who just to who

go on and make a change they probably

had more reason to do it right so it's

not kind of a good experimental design

so he wanted to randomize whether people

are going to make changes or not so what

he did is

he had people go online and he asked

them are you thinking about a change and

it could be small and it could be big

and they said what the change was and

then he had them flip a virtual coin so

heads you go with a change you know you

take the new job tails you don't

um the likelihood that people would

change if they got the heads the change

was 25 more than the people who didn't

so basically people were thinking about

a change they did it they flipped the

coin if they got they changed they're

more likely to have a change and indeed

people who went actually and and

committed and and did the change were

happier than people who didn't so that

kind of suggests that we're probably not

making enough changes than we should be

um potentially because it's scary right

trying something new is scary and

sometimes it's not going to work I think

that's so much in friends of mine in

like lots of DMS from young people who

are in a situation where they're it's

certain but it's miserable and they have

a they have a potential option to like

go through that dark

Chasm to this potentially better place

but they're choosing to stay in that

certain miserable situation whether it's

a relationship a job whatever it might

be

and I've always I've always felt that

our relationship with uncertainty has a

huge

um sway on our overall outcomes and what

I mean by that is people who are okay

with jumping into that sort of dark hole

where they where there isn't certainty

about their outcomes and just persisting

because they'd rather not be in certain

misery end up having better lives but I

don't know how to get people to have a

better relationship with uncertainty I

mean that's a compelling argument I can

say to them but you know just stats and

facts because I read your books Aren't

Enough there needs to be some kind of

emotional

pitch to them to get them to

diagnose first into uncertainty

um any advice yeah that's a really good

question first of all I mean you're

absolutely right there's individual

differences

um on how comfortable we are with with

uncertainty how comfortable we are with

taking risks

um so I think probably

it would be something like

to some extent helping them through the

change so it might be difficult to

change people's relationship with

uncertainty in a global General way but

perhaps every single time when there's a

specific issue in front of them of what

they want to change

um kind of like helping them along the

way with that change holding them their

hand and you know so to speak

um is probably the only thing that you

could do right to be like I'm here for

you whether it's a friend or a mentor

um we're in their mind in that moment

the thing that's causing the resistance

you describe it as fear right yeah so

what's the opposite of fear is it hope

you know it's not an opposite okay but I

think it is um something that will be

um likely to drive you to take that step

and it's not so much just hope it's

optimism which kind of takes us too yeah

uh some of my research so okay what's

the difference between hope and optimism

so hopped hope is you want something to

happen in the future right I want to get

that job I want to find that

relationship

optimism is believing that I'm likely to

get that job I'm likely to find that

wonderful relationship and it's

absolutely true that if you're

optimistic you think this is going to go

somewhere good then you're more likely

to to go ahead and try that which makes

sense right because my expectation is

going to change my actions and my

actions is going to change my outcomes

right because if I think well I am gonna

I'm gonna try for this competition

because I think I'm I'm likely to to get

something then I go ahead and I try if I

think well there's no no chance I don't

try and so of course I'm not going to

get it so it's a bit of a

self-fulfilling optimism

um and so then the question becomes if I

go back to your question then the

question becomes well how do I enhance

optimism right so there's actually and

and that's it's a good idea because

enhancing optimism will cause you to

take more risk I want to learn how to

enhance optimism and all of my team

members one of my companies so there's a

few ways to do it

um one way is a sense of control we do

have we are more optimistic about things

that we believe we have control over

because we do think that when we have

control that means we can steer the

wheel in the right direction right

um and so if we can cause people to get

a sense that they have control and if

it's about your team is for example

let's say they there's a project that

you want someone to work on

so you can just tell them

to do that project or you can have them

choose to do that project right and you

can guide them to the choice that you

think is correct

but if they believe that they made the

choice that enhances a sense of agency

enhances the change of the sense of

control and they become more committed

to that option

so you can give them oh well there's two

options two projects you can work on

which one do you prefer and again you

can frame it in a way that maybe perhaps

will make them more likely to choose one

or over the other but once they made the

choice it's amazing we've done studies

on this where we give people options for

example going on holiday do you want to

go to France or Rome right Thailand or

Hawaii

if they make a choice there are two

things that are exactly they want it the

same they really want to go Hawaii they

really want to go to Florida but once

they make a choice seconds after making

a choice they now believe that Hawaii is

much better than they did just a few

seconds ago before making a choice and

that Florida is not that great right

because once you make a choice

immediately your preferences change you

rationalize why that choice was great

and now you're more committed to it so

that's true for holidays but it can be

true for work as well right should I

should I go work on on Project A or B if

I make the choice I become more

committed and it doesn't work if someone

else makes a choice for you if someone

else wants a choice for you don't get

into this rationalization mode where you

have to rationalize your choice because

it wasn't your choice and once I feel I

have control then kind of that also

enhances my expectations of how good

it's going to be but it also boosts your

happiness right because I read about the

study in Care Homes where they had an

agency floor in the other floor where

people didn't feel like they had a lot

of agency and choice over their lives

and there was a pretty significant

impact on levels of happiness right yes

so what they did is they gave them some

plans is that is that the study yeah yes

yes yes absolutely so

um when we feel we have control we have

agency that enhances well-being when we

feel our agency has been restricted that

causes anxiety right and this is one of

the reasons that people are quite

anxious on planes it's not just because

we fear the worse but because we have no

control at all right no control about

when are we gonna get there what are we

gonna eat right and that causes a lot of

anxiety

um so by enhancing agency and control

you are lifting people's well-being

happiness and reducing Stress and

Anxiety yeah and those you know that

study with the plants it works with kids

as well right you can give kids some

plans to take care of or have kids make

their own salads um they'll be more

likely to eat it

um so that's just you know a few

examples what could um would you I mean

we don't part of the Innovation team at

any Airline or anything but I was just

wondering in the playing example what

could we do then to reduce anxiety for

passengers I was thinking you know if we

told them before takeoff listen if any

you need to land for any reason well

it's not that we necessarily will but as

you say in that study with the the Care

Homes it's about giving them the

perception that they have control versus

actually giving them control yeah okay

so there's there's a couple of things

that they do

them work

um for also some of the reasons but in a

in a funny way it also enhances sense of

control so one thing that the airlines

do that I think is great is when you can

see the um the the equipments um the

pilot view you know yeah we can see yeah

um that for some I mean obviously you

don't have control but first of all it

reduces uncertainty I mean I really like

to look at that like what height am I in

what year am I going so that and and

although you know you don't have control

that gives you a sense of reduce

sensitivity in some weird way also

enhances a sense of control I have to I

have to say I was on a plane one day

flying I don't want to see the airline

but I was flying and I woke up in the

middle of the night on the plane and I

was it was turbulent and I was convinced

that we were going down I was convinced

I looked out the window and we were

getting closer and closer to the clouds

and I did my quick math we're flying

from New York to London with three hours

roughly three hours into the flight

we're going down that means we're going

down in the sea and I have about 10

minutes on that plane where I have

complete certainly we're getting closer

to the clouds why would we be getting

closer to the clouds and I click on the

little thing that you've described the

little flight map thing and it says

we're at 33 000 feet and we're not

moving and I go okay

I mean whoever thought that was a good

idea obviously understand psychology

um the other thing that that I that I

like that they do

um is actually they did and I mentioned

that in in one of the books

and it's not really related to control

but it relates to another really

important part of psychology which is

so normally at the beginning you know

you're about to go

um to get on the flight

um and they have to go over all the

safety instructions and normally no one

would listen

right because it was all about in the

state of emergency then you have to do

this and that and no one wants to think

about the state of emergency right so

you kind of like shut down they're like

okay Twitter Facebook

um and so what they did is they um and

especially virgin did this

um they switched it so it was very

entertaining very light and it was all

about the destination it was all about

it wasn't about being in the sky and

having an emergency state which is

negative and I don't want my attention

to go there I don't want to think about

it it was about let's think about when

you land and it's going to be the

islands and you know the beach and so on

and they kind of like put the

information that you need to know within

this very light entertaining positive

humorous video and the number of people

that that watched that attended has gone

gone up really uh tremendously and in

fact people started watching it at home

before they even got on the plane right

on YouTube so that's that's another

really um interesting thing and that

goes to another principle

that we find a lot in our work which is

that people

um take in positive information about

their own future much more than negative

information about their own future so if

I'm starting if I will tell you you know

I think your podcast listening numbers

is going to go down you'll be like well

she doesn't know what she's talking

about right but if I say oh I think this

is great and it's only going to go up

more and more with time you'd be like

yeah she's probably right and become

more confident so that's on average

people tend to take positive information

to update their beliefs more than

negative it doesn't mean that we don't

listen to negative information about the

our own future

um but on average we see that you learn

more from unexpected positive

information about the future that's

somewhat

confirm some of the things that I read

in your second book The influential mind

where I remember I was watching a

YouTube video where you were in it and

they were

x-raying is that what they call it when

they look at someone's brain

uh scanning someone's scanning yeah like

in an MRI yeah like an MRI scan and they

were scanning someone's brain

um as you told them that you agreed with

their beliefs versus when you told them

that you kind of disagreed with their

beliefs and when you agreed with their

belief their brain lit up and seemed to

be really receptive and then when you

told them you disagreed with their

beliefs their brain seemed to kind of

just be Frozen and this is really useful

for when you're thinking about having a

conversation trying to influence or have

a conversation with your partner or get

through to someone that starting with

agreeability or something where you you

make them feel heard and seen and

understood is a good way to open them up

to information yeah so this relates to

something that's known as a confirmation

bias so the confirmation bias is our

tendency to look for information that

confirms what we believe and to use

information that confirms what I what we

believe to become even more confident

and even more kind of in our belief and

yeah so we we did a study where we had

people come into our lab in in pairs and

they had to make a financial decision

together in this case they had to assess

the value of a real estate

so they made their decisions and we did

scan their brains at the same time and

they were just in two separate scanners

but they could interact over the Wi-Fi

and they had to they saw like a real

estate and they had to say how much it's

worth and they could see what the other

person said and if they agreed with them

or not and it's exactly what you said

I'm agreeing with you

when they agreed your brain is like when

they agreed

um and they gave them more information

about how confident I am and so on so

when someone agreed the other person's

brain showed activity that suggested

they were encoding the information

coming from the advanced partner they

were using it to update their beliefs

and they were becoming more confident

but when someone disagreed they kind of

as exactly what you said did they shut

down they weren't listening they weren't

using this information you know they

were like well they don't know what they

talk about and they were that's it

um and as you said we feel that like in

in real life all the time you know and

it's it's a problem because really our

kind of instinct when someone disagrees

with us is usually to say well listen

you're wrong let me explain I'll explain

why why you're wrong here look at the

data look at the figures and so on

and what happens the person in front of

us is shutting down a lot of times what

they're doing is that the other person

is trying to think about other reasons

why actually they're right and the other

person's wrong so while I'm talking

you're trying to think about what are

you going to say to you know but if I

start with something where we have

common ground

then you're more likely to listen to me

you're more likely to see me as an

agreeing partner and be more open to

what I'm going to say next and there's

one example that I really like is

actually about vaccines and this was

before covid so it was about childhood

vaccines so a lot of parents uh don't

want to vaccinate their kids because of

the alleged link to autism

um and so usually they would go to the

doctor's office and the doctor said well

look there's no link between the two and

here I'll show you the figures the data

the science and it didn't really work

the parents usually didn't change their

mind so instead there's a group of

scientists that said let's see if we can

go a different route we won't actually

mention anything about what we disagree

which is the relationship to autism

instead we will simply highlight what we

already agree on which is that these

vaccines protect kids from potentially

deadly disease which is not something

that the parents disagreed on but the

whole that seemed to have been forgotten

in the debate right while they were

focusing on what they disagreed on so by

focusing on that on what they agreed on

which is the vaccines will will protect

kids from deadly diseases they were

three times more likely to change the

parents intention of vaccinating the

kids wow so I think this means you know

if we're kind of in a conversation about

should we invest in this company or that

company and we're kind of disagreeing

about something is there a different

route to get get to you know the

decision that we want without focusing

there are there other things that we

agree on that that would take us to the

same point and then there's another

method which is just to highlight the

commonalities between us that's also

helpful

you know perhaps there's something I

mean we have a goal in common we have a

motivation in common maybe there's

something in our background which is

similar and that also always makes

people more likely to listen to you and

to use what you're saying

it's so true I was actually as you were

saying I was thinking about a tweet I

saw the other day where Mark Cuban was

having an argument with someone else on

Twitter and Mark Cuban was going back

and forth with this person and he

started his response to them with wrong

full stop and then made his point and

you see that a lot where you where

someone will start a sentence with I

disagree full stop and then make that

point when that happened I'm just going

to be completely honest because who can

I'm a somebody that is imperfect and

full of fault when someone does that

with me when they literally start a

sentence with wrong or I disagree it's

instant combat right and like I'm well

aware of it so maybe it doesn't come up

as much in me but I remember I can go

but I can remember three years ago where

I was when someone said to me when we're

having conversation and they went wrong

full stop and then they made their point

regardless of what comes next it's

combat the minute you do that the minute

you kind of close the door and like pull

up the drawbridge which is exactly what

that sentiment does it's combat from

then on it's like it's this war of

proving that you're right and that's not

helpful for either party right it takes

someone with a certain self self

security I guess and

um not not fragile ego to be able to

to be able to be greeted with that

um sort of conflict and turn to what we

have in common and what we agree on

first but it's a real it's a real

powerful skill for someone to master so

if you're disagreeing with me for me to

you know I like this as well with my

relationship

because me and my partner we might not

agree on something we might we might we

have like very fundamentally different

beliefs about the world she's very

spiritual and very sort of scientific

and how I think

but I know that I get through to her

when I first

understand how she's feeling I don't

have to agree with it but even if I

understand how she's feeling and kind of

like validate her anything that I say

next seems to get in behind if that

makes sense yeah so I mean the

difference is that what you're doing in

the last kind of example is you're using

what we call theory of Mind Right theory

of mind is our ability to kind of think

about what other people are thinking or

feeling so basically take the point of

view of the other person right if and

and there's a huge variability in the

ability of people to do that there's

like tests relatively simple tests

actually that can measure your ability

to do that

um and so if you do that the likelihood

that you will answer by wrong is very

very low right the reason we we start by

wrong you're mistaken is because we do

the opposite we come from our point of

view which makes sense because our brain

is here and our eyes are here right so

it makes sense that we come from our

point of a bit from our point of view

it's like this is wrong this is not

right right but of course the best way

to get your message across is to try to

see things from the other person's point

of view and then think like okay what

can I say from that point of view not

from my point of view from that point of

view

um super difficult to do I'm gonna give

an example say my um my partner was

um upset about something and feeling

stressed about something which is just

to do with her environment

and my first response was very like

logical and scientific like and also

psychological like kind of like it's

just in your head which I know it's kind

of gaslighting that's not exactly what I

said before I get canceled but it was

referring to the fact that I I think you

can you can kind of think your way

through this like as if I was trying to

help her feel empowered and not letting

her environment get the best of her now

that didn't work the response there was

like not good my next approach was to

completely understand how she's feeling

and kind of go around her side and say

to her do you know what you're only

going to be here for five minutes anyway

and then it'll be fine and that

completely worked it was like she was

glued on me as I said that and she

looked at me and nodded and went yeah

you're right the first approach of

trying to play like logic and like no no

you know didn't work but then when I

said term I understood but then offered

a solution from that place of

understanding she was really open to it

yeah and that was like an hour ago so

it's in front of mind for me

um yeah so so I think this is a problem

a lot of times with like campaigns like

political but also different campaigns

where people try to

um

get a message across using data figures

logic which are important I mean we need

all the science and we need all the data

to know what's true but once you know

what's true the data is not enough to

convince people of what is true and in

fact the things that work are things

that you're talking about which is

emotion works really well

stories anecdote example right for in

science the worst thing we can do is use

one anecdote right so we don't want to

get a conclusion based on one answer but

in order to get our message across in

fact a single anecdote is really helpful

right

um and to my mind we actually have to

embrace that that's the way the human

brain works right so I mean I think in

if we just go ahead and say well I don't

like that I don't like how the human

break works so I'm gonna give them data

and figures anyway well the message

won't get across right so we really need

to embrace if we understand how the mind

work and then we embrace it to get the

the important information across and

again another example that I kind of

write about is

This was

um years ago with the 2016 campaign

where

um Trump was one of the candidates for

the Republican Party

um and Dr Carson was another and they

were debating and the debate turned

again to the vaccines and autism

question and so they were asked about

you know Trump says that there's a

relationship between childhood vaccines

and autism Dr Carson is a pediatrician

and and he was asked well you know what

do you think about this and Dr Carson

said look this is not true we have a lot

of data we have a lot of Science and you

know I'm sure that if Trump reads the

science and data he will be convinced

otherwise

um so then they turn to Trump to see if

he was convinced and of course he wasn't

convinced but then what he did he used

the absolutely opposite approach which

is he told a story a story of someone

who worked for him who had a little baby

and he said the baby got the vaccine and

he used like to induce emotion he is

like you said it was a horse-sized

syringe right

and after a few weeks the baby got

autism

and now I'm not saying that we should do

we should um communicate false

information using anecdotes and emotion

but me I remember I was actually

watching that and my son was a few weeks

old and he was next to me on the sofa

and I'm a scientist and I know all the

data and you know but still my and I

know that he was wrong but my reaction

was like ooh maybe I should think about

this twice before I decide whether to

vaccinate my little son here

um and I felt like that for at least I

would say like a few minutes a little

bit more and kind of that feeling made

me think look if I'm thinking that

because all because Dr Carson just said

there's data and figures and Science and

Trump just told the story that got me

feeling quite anxious and he was much

more influential

um what about everyone else that's

watching you know people who are not

neuroscientists who don't have training

with science

um and it really kind of hit home how

powerful it is now you could use these

techniques obviously to spread

misinformation and to do harm of course

but if Dr Carson had used some of these

techniques as well he could say there's

a science but together with that you

know maybe using some kind of anecdote

to maybe use some um

hope hope and optimism emotion right

some something like that he would maybe

have caused many many people who are

watching it to vaccinate their kids and

therefore to save lives

um so I think there's like you know if

you don't understand human behavior and

you don't use it because maybe you don't

like it you know you're like you don't

like that that's how the brain works

you'll be missing on something right

this is why conspiracy theories flourish

on social media right because all I need

to do is get one anecdote one low

context video one picture one screenshot

of something and posted on Facebook and

regardless of the science whether it's

climate change or vaccines whatever that

one little screenshot from a telegram

group that says something happened to

one person somewhere out of 8 billion

becomes way more sort of um believable

and plausible and

um powerful than all of the science and

I've seen that over the last couple of

years it's why like the misin for me it

feels like a bit of a losing War really

because

with bringing like facts and figures to

an emotional fight and the facts and

figures just will never win like even

below the you know social media channels

now we're putting the little tag on post

to say well actually Politico says this

isn't true it's like he gives a crap it

hits somebody in the feelings um but it

also speaks to the you know you talk a

lot about this in your book The

influential mind it speaks to how as as

business people or in sales or whenever

we're trying to be heard and understood

or influence others coming with facts

figures graphs and charts is not going

to be as compelling as coming with um

a really great emotional story

I I've always impressed upon people as

much as I can that like your facts and

figures and charts and graphs really

don't really matter when you're trying

to convince people

um and that's what your book really

speaks to right and it's terrible for a

scientist of course

all day is you know gathers gather data

and do analysis but um yeah so so it's

an interesting question so why do these

stories why are they so effective and so

I think there's two major region reasons

one is they are well free actually one

is mostly they induce emotion and what

emotion does it gets you to focus

because emotion tells your brain this is

important right and it gets a whole

brain noticing it's like a little red

kind of light in your brain going

emotion pay attention right so if you

say something that's emotional people

are going to pay attention and they're

going to remember better so emotion

enhances the likelihood that you will

remember things

um then the second reason is if you

think about it how humans how did we

learn right if before we had science

before we had all these ways to get so

much data we would we would live in like

relatively small groups and we would

learn from observing others right

observing like a friend or someone who

lives nearby it was learning from

stories that's how we evolved to learn

from a small n right only now do we have

you know these these techniques and big

data that we could really figure things

out but our brain is still a brain of

these humans that didn't have the

internet that didn't have all the math

that we have now and so we're still

learning from stories that's kind of our

our Instinct now we are sophisticated

creatures we can't overcome this we can

look at the data we can learn but really

our instinct is to learn from a single

story the third reason I think is that

stories are often novel like you've

never heard the exact same story in that

kind of way again novelty causes you to

pay attention and causes you to remember

it's another signal if something is

important right while data and figures

you kind of heard it before if someone

says well there's no relationship

between Autism and vaccine or whatever I

mean you've already had the science it's

usually doesn't it doesn't sound so

novel and really our brain cares about

the headlines right what's new it's like

a newspaper we don't care about what's

been the same we care about this is new

means that we should pay attention and

then maybe it's important or maybe not

but

um that last Point really resonated

about the the cnh that stories are in

essence novel you've never heard about

Debbie in Newcastle exactly before

um but also what you know now it makes

perfect sense as to why politicians in

the house of parliament every week say I

spoke to my constituent Dorothy in

Burnley and then they'll tell the story

about Dorothy struggling to to hit her

home versus just coming with facts and

when you hear about Dorothy who can't

heat her home you feel way more oh my

God versus hearing 24 of elderly people

can't hit their home for example when I

think about motivation though does the

same rules apply so if I want to

motivate my team should I be telling

them the Diary of a CEO has done 20

million downloads this month or should I

be telling them a story of

Dorothy who listened to the podcast and

it changed her life

I think in this case both things will

will work I mean

um seeing progress is something that

really motivates us and seeing progress

with numbers is an easy way for us to

see progress right this is why

um all these kind of like track your

steps work right

um so I think to motivate I mean it's oh

it's always lovely also to hear a story

I mean even for yourself if you know it

doesn't matter how many people watched

your podcast is that when you get like

you meet someone they tell you about

like how much you touch them and really

change their life and they decide to

make a decision because of you they

heard you do something you really

remember that right that like causes so

much joy and motivation numbers are

great too right when you look and you're

like oh I have one million people

listening to my podcast that's great too

so I think both things work and when if

you do use numbers it's really great to

kind of show the progress right a really

great way to change Behavior is to show

people progress and numbers is just one

way to show it right if they can kind of

see it going up up up up

um that's that's really helpful and I

mean we know it in sports but it can it

can be true for anything right if it's

like you can do it it's money

Investments right

um seeing that go up relationships as

well I wonder how you can do it for

relationship it's a good question well I

I actually I say that because I feel

like I do that sometimes with my partner

where um we might be facing some kind of

issue and one of the most compelling

things we've ever done when we're facing

an issue is we look at all the issues

we've overcame together and like how

we're here right so there were so many

other times where we thought this you

know we couldn't solve it she lived on

the other side of the planet I lived

here we both didn't want to move and

then I've had exactly the same situation

that was her problem for years and years

oh really yeah I remember bits being sat

in a bar and my partner was talking

about an issue something that we were

struggling with or whatever and I

remember saying to her like look look

how far we've come from where we were

here to where we are now it's like well

there's nothing that's gonna get in the

way of us you know and that seemed to be

compelling because I guess it was an

emotional story of all these the

previous issues we've overcame getting

back to the optimism bias

the optimism bias from what I understood

is that is that bias to believing that

um the future will be good

is that is that accurate or is that

inaccurate yeah kind of so um optimism

on its own I mean even though I'm wrong

no no

that's right I'll just give you the

scientific definition so um yeah so

optimism is believing that that some you

know that positive things will happen

the optimism bias means that um you're

either like that you believe these

optimistic things these good things will

happen but the evidence suggests

otherwise so it's it's actually a

mistake right the optimism bias so

usually we Define it as overestimating

the likelihood of positive events

happening so you're overestimating

um how much money am I gonna get with my

first job when I leave graduate school

right or overestimating like how long my

marriage will last

um and so on so overestimating the

positive in light of the evidence that

is in front of us and underestimating

the likelihood of negative events

happening so I'm underestimating my

likelihood of getting covered of getting

cancer of being in a car accident going

bankrupt whatever it is based on

whatever evidence is is there

um so optimism bias does mean mistakes

so the word bias means a systematic

mistake

so obviously when we think about the

future we can't be right most of the

time because the future is uncertain we

don't know what's going to happen so

we're going to be wrong a lot of the

times when we predict the future but the

optimism bias means that the mistakes

that we make tend to systematically be

that we expect it to be better than it

ends up being so that's basically the

optimism bias right I expect it to be

better than it ends up being

um which sounds like a bad thing but

it's not necessarily so I mean the word

bias people usually because it is a

mistake people usually think that that

means it's not a good thing but it's not

necessarily so it can actually have both

positive and negative

um outcomes to it so if you think about

the positive

um if I expect good things in my future

specifically good things even though I'm

overestimating the likelihood of these

things happening even if they think oh

I'm you know I'm gonna make one million

in the next year and of course that's

way more than I'm going to

um

but that then motivates you right so

having these positive expectations

motivates you to try harder it's a bit

like I think I'm going to get the gold

I'm more likely to get the silver so

that's kind of the idea and it also

enhances your happiness and well-being

right because how you're feeling now is

a lot to do not necessarily with what

you're doing at the moment but what you

think you'll be doing later right how

you're feeling now is like okay you

might maybe feeling nice talking here

but um a lot of it is what do I think

I'm gonna do later on this evening next

week next month in a year our

expectations of where we will be in the

future affects our happiness today right

and so if I have these positive positive

expectations of the future even if

they're not going to happen they make me

happier today this is why there's a

really cool study that was done at

Harvard where they were asking people

who are about to go on vacation how

happy they were every day before

vacation and have every day during

vacation and every day after vacation

for a week so a week before vacation

every day a week doing vacation every

day a week after vacation every day so

what was the happiest day do you think

the day before they were right exactly

right the day before vacation they were

still in the office right working on the

computers but on their mind they were

already on vacation on the in their mind

it was wonderful and when they went on

vacation it was good but it wasn't as

good as it was in their mind the day

before so it's the anticipation of these

Goods so it's an optimism bias because

they thought the vacation is going to be

better than what it ended up being but

that brought them the happiness before

yeah right and also probably enhance the

likelihood they will go on vacation

which is a good thing

um as well so does that mean that we

should uh in our relationships in our in

our teams Etc we should try and give

people things to look forward to

absolutely absolutely and I think that

there's two things you kind of want

things in the diary right so having a

vacation in the diary that's going to

happen in a month makes you happy today

so whatever it is whatever you're doing

for that matters to your team

have what I call anticipatory events

right things that they could look

forward to that will make them happy

today

um but also I think you know a lot of

times I do motivate my uh Team by

telling them that I think this project

is going to work really well I mean even

I think it's from going pretty well but

I might like exaggerate a little bit

because you know that enhances

motivation and who knows you know maybe

it will work even better than I expected

so it's good to kind of enhance kind of

the the expectations and also to have

these things that people can look

forward to and of course it works the

other way

so also if you're dreading something

that's going to happen tomorrow next

week right you have to go to the dentist

or whatever bad thing is happening is

gonna get there and that it's gonna

affect your mood today

um so dread of things in the future and

anticipation of the good stuff is all

affecting how we feel at the moment

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how contagious is optimism and

conversely pessimism in like in life

generally if I'm around a group of

pessimists or I'm around a group of

optimists what kind of contagious impact

is there on on me yeah any emotion is

contagious

um anything sadness anxiety Joy

everything is contagious fear

and it happens really really fast and in

an unconscious way right it could be

even like you're sitting in um

in the tube and someone in front of you

is looking fearful

you straight away will will feel fearful

yourself first of all you will mimic the

expression of the person that's in front

of you without noticing it so if you

look fearful I'm going to start

mimicking the same facial expressions

yeah and that facial expression will

make me feel fearful right because our

brain is learning from how our face

right there's it's a signal and it goes

both ways like a feedback loop

um and there's a good reason for it

because if someone is afraid there might

be something dangerous around us so I

should have you seen the main piece in

the David Attenborough documentary that

star they they know that they know that

the other monkeys are taking a cue from

them so they fake fear so they go and

then when all the monkeys run off they

go and get the food

because they've like they've like got to

level two where they realize that

they're all taking cues from each other

and I remember that documentary thinking

wow like you know because all the

monkeys would run the minute one monkey

made a reaction and that's pretty much

what you're describing there right yeah

exactly and it works for good things as

well if someone looks excited you're

like you will feel excited as well you

don't know why but if they're excited

there might be something good around

right

together I'm just thinking about you

it's just mimicking we do facial

expressions we mimic any kind of facial

expression and bodily Expressions as

well yeah I'm trying not to no yeah but

um but okay so why is this really

important to think about because let's

say you want to you're managing your

team if you're stressful and you're

gonna start like I don't know even like

shouting or raising your voice or

they're gonna get more stressed as well

right so it's it's it's true it's a bit

like the monkeys you can actually change

at least X how you look in terms of the

emotions you need to think about what is

my what emotion am I conveying because

the emotion that you are conveying is

going to then affect how people around

you feel

um so there's a little bit of kind of

emotional control

um that is helpful too

you mentioned now that you kind of you

might exaggerate a little bit the

belief in a positive outcome to your

team members and I think that's and I

hope they're not listening yeah well I

think we all do sometimes I mean I

usually believe it because I think I

have a bit of a bias optimism bias

myself but um

that's in part because of I guess

chapter three in the optimism bias where

you talk about how self-fulfilling um

optimism is and there were some really

really staggering

statistical sort of studies and

um experiments that have been done to

prove that optimism really is a

self-fulfilling thing

and it kind of kind of makes me think

about this concept of manifestation

people always talk about manifestation

and it seems that see it's in my mind

always been this kind of pseudosciency

you just think about something and then

it happens what's your view on

manifestation is it true yeah so it's

not magic it's not that I'm thinking

something in my mind and the waves are

gonna change what happens in the world

the reason if you believe something the

likelihood will happen is higher is

because you then change your actions

right you think I think you know my

startup is going to really succeed and

that then changes your actions you're

more likely to go out there and tell

other people right so if you think it's

going to succeed you're more likely to

convey that information to investors and

so on they can see your your kind of

confidence they'll be more likely to

invest in you right you put more time in

you put more effort in

um and that's why it can have an effect

on the the outcomes

so it's not kind of a magic kind of

thing it's just that what we believe in

our mind changes the way we behave and

the way we behave in the world changes

World

um so that's that's why that is that's

kind of like this idea of

self-fulfilling prophecies is linked to

this concept of stereotyping where one

of the real startling things I read in

your um in your work was that if a woman

is reminded of her gender before a math

exam then her performance on that math

exam will drop

right so our expectations where do they

come from right to some extent I mean

they're coming from around us as well

not only we can have like confidence

even if the people around us do not but

other people's expectations whether it

is your friends your family Society will

impact your own

um and so and again that's becomes a

self-fulfilling prophecy right if you're

told females are not good in math

they're not good in science they can't

be CEOs and so on

that will change the way that you think

even if it's momentarily even you're

trying to fight it it will change the

way that you think and what you believe

and that will then change

um your outcomes and I think maybe in

that I mean we don't know exactly why um

reminding females about The Stereotype

that the females don't do well with math

changes the exam results but it could be

things like maybe it enhances anxiety

you start self-doubt right I mean if you

go to an exam and there's self-doubt

well that's not helpful

um and there's you know there's all

these classic studies where um

there was in in a class they would tell

the teachers at the beginning of the

semester

um who the talented kids were but it was

random they randomly selected kids and

they said these are The Talented ones by

the end of the year they did better

these kids right because the teachers

believed that they were talented they

would treat them in that kind of way

they would maybe put more time they

could fade their expectations to the kid

the kids and started believing that

they're talented and not give them

confidence and they performed better and

of course it worked the other way right

if a teacher believe is told this is you

know the naughty one this is you know

the non-intelligent one that will then

change

um how the kids behave what they believe

and this is where stereotypes are you

know come into play as well because

sometimes it's about not specific

individuals it's about a whole group of

individuals and one such example as well

as the the study where African-Americans

were found to do significantly worse on

IQ tests compared to Caucasians people

that are white when race was emphasized

before the IQ test

did as well as white people when no

stereotype was mentioned before right

just just by mentioning that I'm black

before I do a IQ test will lower my

performance on the test versus if you

hadn't mentioned it because the

association here you're reminded of

ethnicity and you're doing this exam and

then you know that maybe in your Society

there's a stereotype and again that can

cause self-doubt and anxiety and so on

and what I think I like is that I think

after I I talk about that study I also

talk about another study that after

Obama was elected grades went up

for African Americans

um because it's again it's a

self-confident thing it's amazing how

these you know little things I mean it's

not little the fact that Obama got got

elected is not little but then the fact

that that then impacts your

self-confidence you know the little

impact on self-confidence then changes

um your grades

um it's it's quite something but it also

changes your um one of the other things

I read that's really starting it also

changes your

salary

you talk about how one tiny move up on

the optimism scale is worth an extra 33

000 a year in salary over the long term

right and I okay so that's

um that that shows us a correlation I

think I think that's um so we still

don't know for sure if it is it that

because I have specific traits I'm more

likely to be optimistic and therefore

more likely because of those traits also

more likely to gain higher salary right

so you know you can imagine I'm

optimistic because I had a very

privileged life

um and I did well in school so I'm more

optimistic and and for the same reasons

and then more likely to get a higher

grade

um

but

um in in some cases so we don't know if

it's going one way or the other way

right if it's a causation or correlation

one interesting thing that that has been

found is that optimists are more likely

to be entrepreneurs

there's I mean that is quite clear you

know

um and again we don't know is it because

I'm optimistic that I'm more likely to

be an entrepreneur or is it something

about being an entrepreneur that makes

me more optimistic but what they found

is after you become an entrepreneur you

become even more optimistic right so

that suggests that there is something it

is true that optimistic people are more

likely to take a chance more like to

take a risk and therefore more likely to

be entrepreneurs and that experience of

doing that enhances your optimism

further which is really interesting kind

of goes both ways does that then explain

how we can teach someone to become more

optimistic because if the pursuit of

Entrepreneurship make is kind of

self-reinforcing your optimism it's

making you more and more optimistic one

would assume that that's because you're

gaining evidence about yourself and the

world and what you're capable of as

you're going which is further sort of

fueling you and conversely someone who I

know maybe Ling this too long in their

comfort zone and is

um like leaning out of opportunities

constantly being negatively reinforced

in terms of their self belief in their

skills Etc so they're becoming more and

more pessimistic is that like broadly

true I think it might be yes I think you

are gaining evidence that you can do

things and I think even if you feel

um you still gained evidence that you

were able to try something new right

right and not die and not die right and

you learn something right

um yes I think you're absolutely right

um

so if you're able to get people to have

these kind of experiences

that then causes them to become more

confident that will then enhance their

optimism

so how do you know we talked about the

all the positive upsides there of being

an optimist how does if I've got a

friend that's a pessimist or a partner

or a husband or whatever it might be how

do I get them we talked a little bit

about it there but how do I get them to

become more of a Optimist because I want

to be surrounded by optimists I want my

company to be full of them like

pragmatic optimists but still people

that believe that you know the future is

going to be good

um and we're going to do great things

for all the self-fulfilling reasons

you've described what do I do okay so

first of all I just want to mention that

about 30 of how optimistic we are is

genetically determined this has been

shown from twin studies but that still

leaves two-thirds right

um the um I think the best studies on

this comes probably from Martin Seligman

where he actually did experiments where

he got people who were somewhat

pessimistic even slightly depressed and

the approach that he took is to change

the inter what he calls interpretation

Style

so optimists this is what they usually

do if something happened and it it went

well right you sold your startup for a

lot of money you had a project and it

was successful they usually interpret

that as a meaning that they it's it's

personally it's something about them

that caused this positive outcome right

and it is something in them that's quite

permanent let's say my project went well

because I'm a hard worker right and you

know maybe I'm intelligent or whatever

and then they say well if I have those

skills that means that a lot of other

things are going to work well in life

right if I'm in a hard work or if I'm a

good with good with people that also

means that I'll be a good dad for

example right when something negative

happens they tend to do the opposite

they tend to see it as circumstantial

right this negative thing happened okay

so I didn't put a lot of effort in this

but not because I'm not hard worker I

just didn't put enough effort because I

was distracted by something else or you

know this other person just happen to

have a better better proposal so it's

circumstantial that means that they

don't take that as evidence of how am I

going to perform in the future right so

it's really different interpretation of

negative outcomes and positive outcomes

so what and then pessimists do the exact

opposite when something bad happens they

say this bad thing happened because of

me because of a trait that I have and

because I have this trait let's say I'm

bad with people that's going to affect

all the rest of my life and all these

future projects when something could

happen is circumstantial good thing

happened I got the job but really

because they didn't have any other

people candidates so what Martin segment

did is he taught people this

interpretation style that he taught them

whenever something good happens this is

how you have to think about it you have

to think about it what is it about you

that caused this positive thing to

happen right and how is that positive

trait or whatever skill whatever

everything you did how can it affect

other parts of your life and other few

future outcomes and the opposite for

negative something negative happened I

don't mean it don't take responsibility

but are there circumstantial right it

could be something that you did but it

doesn't have to be permanent right you

happen to have be in a really bad State

because I don't know something else your

parent was was sick or something so he

teaches them the people to kind of

interpret this to find these reasons for

the positive and negative and it seemed

to work

um

to some extent now it's difficult I'm I

mean you know it's not easy to turn a

pessimist into an optimist

um but it had some effect on their

well-being and even on their physical

health as a result is that negative

explanatory style of saying okay this

bad thing happened it's because of me

it's because I'm not good enough

whatever is that the road to depression

yeah so there's a really tight link

between depression and pessimism so

pessimism is a symptom of depression

it's an actual symptom

um and so what we see is people with

severe depression have a pessimistic

bias they expect the future to be worse

than it ends up being and worse than the

evidence in front of them is

um people with mild depression have no

bias at all this doesn't mean they're

accurate they can make mistakes but on

both sides so sometimes they expect

things to be better sometimes they

expect things to be worse but overall

um they don't have a bias

happiness

you know one of the things we talked

about before we started recording was um

Scott Galloway said on this podcast that

happiness looks like a u-shape

throughout our lives as in When We're

Young we're a high level of happiness

and then we kind of dip into our 40s I

think I think from what I read when we

hit our 40s that's kind of the lowest

it sounds kind of moving sounds kind of

a grim but we that's our lowest point of

happiness and then it kind of Curves

back up again as we go into the last

sort of chapters of our life is that

accurate because Scott didn't provide

any research and I've mulled it over and

I you know yeah no so this this is true

it's based on many studies and and

studies involving thousands of thousands

of individuals you know up to like 70

000 or more in a country and it's been

shown in many many countries

um so not just in in the Western World

in many many countries almost all

countries around the world

um so exactly what you said kids and

children their happiest and the most

optimistic then it goes down and reaches

Rock Bottom in your midlife as well as

optimism does so actually in middle age

you stop having an optimism bias so your

optimism is greater greatest in

children's and kids it causes goes down

down and then really there's no optimism

bias in midlife on average of course and

then it starts going up you become

happier and more optimistic until the

last few years of life which is

counter-intuitive to our image of the

grumpy old man right and actually stays

there until the couple last couple years

of life

um the difference between countries is

that the dip the you know the point

where it's lowest actually is a little

bit different between country and

Country I think in the US it's about 40

it's a relatively early I think in the

UK as well but then some countries it's

much uh I think like Italy might be 50

Greece as well like 50 to 60. and then

there's a few countries where you don't

see that Russia is one of them

Romania and I forget there's another one

where you actually don't see they

actually just become you know less and

less less happy

um in those countries we don't know why

that is that specific case I'm 30 now so

I'm heading right down to Rock Bottom as

we speak oh you've got time you've got

time I'm about to turn so I'm way I'm

looking forward

I'm on the way well not quite yet but

I'm about on my way up and this you know

this links to I think chapter five in

your book where we say where you talk

about the chapters called that humans

are bad at predicting what makes them

happy and one of the startling things is

it you say that children

don't impact our happiness positively

now I'm under the impression that

children make us ecstatically happy well

it's difficult but from what I've from

what I've heard from people I thought

children are something to really be

looking forward to but you seem to

assert otherwise in your book

um so this first of all I want to say

this is just a research and the numbers

and um

my I'm not just saying this but my own

experience is the absolute opposite

um bear in mind her child is upstairs

and he's watching this Leo no but but

it's absolutely true because it's funny

because because of that research and I

wrote the first this is in my first book

The optimism bias which I wrote before

my kids and I I actually I mean I

believed it it I mean I mean that's a

data what are you going to do and and

that kind of got me worried I have to

say about having kids I was a little bit

worried about the fact that children it

says children's you know children don't

mean you happy you become less happy you

become less happy when you have children

that's what the research I didn't I

didn't see that oh sorry that's what you

said right because children don't make

you happy yeah right but I didn't know

there was I thought they didn't make you

more happy I didn't know they make you

less oh no it's it apparently like um I

mean the data shows I mean there's a

little different points of data some so

for example there's one piece of data

that shows that this was done by

actually Daniel conman who's a Nobel

Prize winner

um where they asked a large group of

French women to say how happy they were

throughout the day so I don't know every

few hours or oh maybe at the end of the

day they said what they were doing and

how happy they were and they found that

the least happy people are is commuting

but then I think number two least happy

was being with their children

so I have to tell you from my own this

is an anecdote an N of one my children

really make me extremely happy I love

being with them I'm really it's contrary

to all the research so I I truly I mean

I'm surprised you know before they were

born I was thinking look if you know if

I don't like them we'll put them in a

boarding school and my mom was like I

don't think you want to put them in

boarding school you're probably and I

was like well we'll see and then and

then no absolutely love having them

around so but that's just an end of one

so I don't know and of course your own

experience unfortunately even as a

scientist shapes the way that you

interpret the data but um I mean look

having I mean I'm sure having children

can be difficult and and you know it

depends on your life circumstances and

all of that and temperament of the child

and so on and so I'm sure it could be it

could be difficult but is that is that

because there's a distinction as you

said at the start of this conversation

between like happiness and meaning it

might be difficult but it's meaningful I

need like work is difficult there's like

varieties of work if I'm working in a

job with a little autonomy where the

outcomes I'm like subjectively not

interested in then it's just difficult

work but if I'm like raising a child

it's difficult but it's tremendously

meaningful so although I might say to

this the investigator that I'm unhappy

when my kid is crying and running around

and smashing everything and playing with

the Rubik's Cube won't put it down

I reflect on that in hindsight and go oh

amazing

absolutely I mean meaning is important

and you should do things you should make

choices

um according to meaning as well

um

and and obviously there's individual

differences in my case it they just

actually make me happy I can like dance

with them in my you know at home and

like actual happiness

um but but you know it can obviously

it's different it's not like all the

time of course

um what about marriage that was the

other one that was quite surprising that

it didn't didn't make it but I think

okay so that was a little bit so it's

been a while since I look at this but I

think it was nuanced which is what does

make you happy is being in a

relationship I believe that did make

whether you were married or not married

didn't really matter but I think being

in a relationship was was inducing

happiness the other kind of interesting

finding about that is that

um how fast people get over divorce

right that it takes I mean I don't know

if it's fast or not but within like so

just before

um a few years before you get divorced

happiness starts going down because of