everybody has narcissistic Tendencies

and we're all self-absorbed but nobody

wants to admit it it's always somebody

else it's always Donald Trump it's

always Elon Musk but everyone has a

manipulative side there are no Saints in

this world but can you use it

productively yes most definitely there's

deep narcissists who are very

problematic and there's healthy

narcissists and knowing the distinction

between the two will help save you years

of misery what if from dealing with a

narcissist I want you to do the

following I want you to Robert Green is

one of the most influential writers in

history unraveling the secrets of power

strategy and human psychology that are

essential for purpose resilience and

success what is it about human nature

that we just don't want to admit one is

that Envy is deeply ingrained in all of

us in fact always wanting to be better

and Superior to others it's the most

motivating factor of 90% of human

behavior but if you don't admit it to

yourself that ugly emotion is like a

nuclear bomb to all aspects of life it

will seize you by the throat and make

you miserable but there's also

understanding things like we all judge

on appearances that everyone has a dark

side and that we are all actors and I

will get into the nitty-gritty of all of

them because it's really about how

powerful people use those traits for

their success people are lonelier than

ever and when you look at the impact

that that's having it's equal to smoking

15 cigarettes a day what is the antidote

for this I empathize with it very much

so because when I was younger I was

losing in The Game of Life I was very

depressed and even suicidal but what

Lifted Me Out was

this has always blown my mind a little

bit 53% of you that listen to the show

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before we start if you like the show and

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much

[Music]

Robert at this moment in

time what do you believe your followers

your fans the people that love your

books what do you believe that they're

struggling with the most and I'm asking

this question because I imagine you get

thousands of DMS and messages from these

people what are the common themes well

the the most common question I get

particularly from people in their

20s is they don't really know uh where

they're headed they don't know what

their career is what I call in Mastery

their life's task and I talk a lot about

it in interviews and in my in the book

Mastery and I make it the point that it

is the most important decision in your

life figuring out what you were destined

for why you were born what you were

created for what makes you

unique and I say that everything from

that realization from that understanding

kind of stems from that your sense of

fulfillment your happiness everything

will come from that one

realization and a lot of young people

are very confused right now and I don't

blame them these are very very confusing

times that they're going through much

more confusing than anything I had to

deal with particularly I think the

influence of technology and social media

and what I mean by that is to know who

you are to know what you were meant to

do in life what what why you were born

what makes you unique requires a lot of

reflection on yourself self aware Wess

self- knowledge you have to go Inward

and when your attention is always

focused so much on what other people are

doing what other people are saying you

know the what they think is hot what

they think is cool you become kind of a

stranger to yourself right so when I

talk about that concept to them it's

like it sounds interesting Robert but I

have no idea what that is I don't know

what my my life's task is now that's

maybe 30 or 40% of the emails that I get

it's quite high but it's not all of them

but it is a trend I've noticed with

young people who are going through I

think very very confusing times and uh

I'm very empathetic to it because I was

actually someone who was quite lost in

my 20s and I know the pain that that can

cause not feeling like your life has any

meaning you know I think that's

something that really is is um

tormenting a lot of young people what

does life mean what will give me a sense

of meaning right to what I'm doing to

where I'm headed to my daily experiences

and not having that is deeply disturbing

and I've been through that myself I

think I'm getting a lot of that kind of

feedback and a lot of those emails among

others and is there a strategy that

young people or really anybody that

feels lost or aimless in their

life should and is able to deploy to

find their purpose to find the direction

the the thing they should be aiming

at well you know you have to get out of

this this this way of thinking that that

so many people have which everything has

to be simple and linear and I'm heading

this direction it's got to be a solution

like I'm hacking my way to the truth

life doesn't work that way life is very

complex so I can't give you a single

track answer to finding your life

purpose you as an individual but I can

give you kind of Clues I can kind of

direct you toward certain paths that

have worked for me and that have worked

for hundreds of thousands of other

people who've become Masters or very

successful in their field and the first

thing is you have to go inward so you

have to resist the pull that our culture

gives you you have to also really want

this that's probably what it really

comes down to are you unhappy are you

frustrated are you hitting kind of rock

bottom is this a turning point in your

life where you realize if I keep going

this way in 5 years it's going to be

really serious okay it has to be

important to you and you have to to have

a sense of

urgency and with that sense of urgency

you have to make some decisions and one

of the decisions that's absolutely

essential is to pay less attention to

what other people are doing to pay less

attention to what other people are

saying to pay less attention to what

people are telling you you should be

doing and to go Inward and think about

yourself and think about what you love

and what your interests are that have

nothing to do with what people are doing

on social media the things that grab you

that excite you deeply inside in a way

that's almost

irresistible now for me I can say that

it was always been writing okay and I

just couldn't figure out what kind of

writing but there's also things like

when I ever read anything that has to do

with ancient history particularly the

origins of of humanity hundreds of you

know tens of thousands of years ago I am

so excited I can't I can't I can read

every single article about that every

discovery that takes place in Africa

about our Origins it just puts my mind

in a spin to think that this is who we

were 100,000 years going this is who we

are now I want to know more that's like

this one of these things that hits you

in the gut well the people out there you

have that there's something like that

you had it when you were a child you had

it when you were two three four years

old five years old and you've lost it

because you're listening too much to

other people so it's kind of like

archaeology would be the metaphor you

have to dig and dig and dig and find

those bones and those relics and those

artifacts from your past the things that

really excite you as well as the things

that you hate now if I were to go you

know kind of do a reverse engineering

which I do with a lot of people who were

successful like yourself I could go back

and kind of find that with you where

that hit you because you had a

particular path that led you to doing

these podcasts I know it wasn't a

straight line you deviated you were in

some other job that you ated and then

you slowly found your

way each of those stories there's a

lesson for people right and that's what

I compiled in Mastery but it all begins

from a sense of urgency I can't go on

this way I have to find something that I

love when you're 20 or 21 maybe you

don't feel that urgency because you're

so young you know you look good you have

lots of energy the world's kind of open

to you but you have to be careful

because time passes really quickly those

years in your 20s they go by faster than

you think and if you're turned 30 and

you never thought about this and you're

kind of been wandering around trying

things it starts to get a little

difficult much harder for you so it's

better if you have that sense of urgency

when you're 21 or

22 and the other thing I would say is

you don't learn anything if you're not

excited by it so you have to have a

sense of fun and Adventure about this so

discovering what your life's task can't

be this dreary boring thing that Roberts

advoca you do where you oh I have to

spend time with myself I have to look

you know do a journal blah blah blah no

it's fun it's an adventure trying

different things that fit into this

General shape of what you were destined

for it's a blast you know when I was in

my 20s I had more fun than anybody I had

an amazing time it was the best years of

my life I was trying all sorts of

different things I was exploring I was

traveling had Adventures so I don't want

your life to be boring I want you to

learn I want you to have Adventures but

you have to have a sense of direction a

sense of purpose to guide that kind of

those those different Adventures that

you go on do you think it's harder to

find your sense of purpose and what

you're deeply connected to as you get

older yeah I I think so your your mind

gets a little bit more rigid you think

you know all of the ansers right but

what happens with a lot of people I also

get corresponden from or let's say

turning 40 or even a little bit older

and they're coming to those Crossroads

is it's even much more painful than when

you're in your 20s because there's a

sense of regret there's a sense that

you've wasted your time and to get back

to a path that will suit you can be very

difficult as you mentioned but there's

also another another side to that which

is you probably have been learning some

skills in your life you probably have

had some experiences that have changed

you because when you're 21 22 you don't

know the world you don't know people you

think you know everything but you don't

know anything right you've never had any

experiences in life you never had to

suffer maybe you have but not really

suffering like you do when you get older

okay so you're 40 you've had tough

experiences you've been hardened you got

you know you're not so fragile and

you've learned things if you change your

mindset at that age and you go I'm going

to take what I have my experiences my

skills what I've learned and I'm going

to redirect it towards something more

exciting for me then it will work for

you right but as you say it can be

harder because you're more set in your

ways and you've built a life you've

built a network you've built a

reputation for being this thing whether

it's lawyer doctor dentist whatever it

might be and so there's a element of

shedding that might have to occur

shedding people shedding a city that you

live in shedding a a way that people

know you an income

and that's deeply difficult and I think

some people would prefer the certain

misery of their current situation to the

uncertainty and the shedding that occurs

when they go in search of something

else yeah but I mean the pain that you

feel when you get older and you know we

have we humans have very active Minds

we're gifted with the most powerful

organ in the entire universe the human

brain the billions of possible

Connections in our brain is greater than

anything in the entire universe it is

the most amazing instrument and our

brains are very active and when you get

older and you don't have anything to put

your brain onto and things are slowing

down you don't realize that that's

what's making you depressed you don't

realize that the fact that you haven't

been able to fulfill what you were meant

to fulfill is actually the source of

your misery and unhappiness you will

blame it on other people you will blame

it on the world you will blame it on

politics you won't look at yourself and

realize that it comes from you and the

sadness comes from you and the fact that

you're not maximizing you're not

exploiting this gift that you were given

so it might be difficult to shed all of

that but I've talked to people I'd say

more like around 30 years old who say

Robert I'm at this horrible job you know

I'm I'm in a fast food place or

something I don't remember what it was

or I'm a barista whatever you know I'm

so unhappy I have a wife and I have two

kids what do I do right and so I and and

I I go into their misery a little bit

and then I say okay let's let's first

figure out something that you think

would you would really want in life

something that will have an income

because you have to pay for your wife

and your children you can't just go off

and write poetry or become a rockstar

you have to support yourself and your

family what could that possibly be and

we dig and we dig and we dig I say all

right we have an an answer kind of an

idea I want you to do the following I

want you to carve out two hours or as

much as you can at night where you start

exploring this field on the internet and

you start considering maybe going to

night school okay and taking classes

that change this course and then I want

you to think of five years where you're

going to be a goal five years ahead and

they tell me overnight just having that

has changed them suddenly from their

depression they have hope and they feel

a million times better and they have

energy just from realizing that there is

a possibility it's going to take hard

work but there is an answer there is a

place to go and so it changes it when

you when you have a some sense of

direction there'll be so many people

listening to that now and they'll be

thinking I have a plan I have an idea or

at least a kernel of an idea but I've

spent the last 3 months 6 months 12

months 18 months two years thinking

thinking thinking thinking and not doing

and not doing yeah people stop me all

the time and they'll say Steve I'm

thinking of starting a podcast and I'll

say like how long have you been thinking

about this but for the last two and a

half years yeah you know I talk in

Mastery about something a concept called

learning by doing and um back in in the

Middle Ages they used to have an

apprenticeship that you would go through

seven years you would learn to be a

Craftsman right you'd first go from

being an apprentice to a journeyman to a

Master by doing things the brain learns

but if you never do anything you're

never going to learn so if you suddenly

said I've been thinking about a podcast

I would say get off your ass and start

the podcast

tomorrow and it fails you have learned

so many things you've learned more in

those three months of failure than you

have been two years thinking or five

years of getting a MBA from from some

school and putting yourself massive debt

learn by doing learn by failing why is

planning and procrastination that comes

with the prolonged planning so tempting

for people like why do we love to plan

plan plan plan plan because you're

afraid of failure quite honestly um I

mean Freud has a word for in German air

folks anst which means fear of success

um because this is something that

afflicts a lot of

adolescents because if you're successful

you now have responsibility you now have

a reputation you now have succeeded and

your next venture could fail right

there's pressure that comes with trying

something and putting your name out

there and if I don't ever try anything

if I don't bother if I blame the world I

blame my parents I blame my education

system I blame my partner this that and

the together then you never have to

worry you never have to have that

responsibility you never have to have

that fear of success and that holds

people back so it's easier to not do

anything and stay in your little bubble

and go God if I only if only I had had

money I would have written this great

novel I would you know done this this or

that the other it's just crap you're

trying to delude yourself and you're

afraid of actually putting your neck out

on the line that's what it comes down to

it's a common syndrome among adolescents

I was reading I think it was the book

the courage to be disliked and it was

talking in one of the sections about how

some people would like they prefer to

live in the like Realm of possibility

and the realm of possibility is the

space you live when you declare to the

world that you're going to do something

and be something and be and before you

actually do it so when I tell my friends

listen I'm going to become an actor for

example the year and a half where I go

around saying that I live in the world

of possibility where there's been no

feedback to disprove me yeah yeah which

is nice yeah but I'm kind of getting the

credit for being the type of person

that's aspiring to change yeah and that

like Realm of possibility before you get

feedback or try yeah is a very nice

place to be for some it is and it it's

very addicting and it's kind of a

narcotic but the thing is so you've got

this realm of possibility which you

could become anything I could become an

actor I could become a great novelist I

could become a CEO I could be Elon Musk

II but the way the world works is you

don't achieve anything unless you have

limits having limits and hitting that

wall and that resistance is what makes

you learn is what makes you great is how

the human brain functions and what I

mean by that is let's say you you're

learning the

piano you can't just start out playing

anything and just doing all the notes

it's very limited what you can do right

and you have to you have to go within

those limits and those walls and learn

the first things first and then those

walls start to expand a little bit but

you're constantly pressing against

limits and and those limits make you

stronger and stronger it's like when

you're swimming the resistance in the

water is what makes your muscles bigger

right the resistance of limits is what

makes your brain bigger makes you more

successful makes you learn but if all

you do is live in that nebulous world of

possibility you're never developing

you're never getting any muscle you're

never getting any strength you're not

developing life skills it's a tough

World Stephen you know that

people can be very cruel it can be very

a mean-spirited world you have to have a

thick skin in this world you have to

develop some toughness and you develop

that toughness by trying things out and

by failing and if you fail you know like

um my wife's in the film business and we

know a lot of actors an actor you know

you think it's all glamorous but it's

actually like 99% rejection people are

constantly rejecting you and they're

rejecting you for things that are you

have no control over like your looks you

know and so what separates the actors

who succeed and the ones who don't are

those that have a bit of a t tough skin

they don't take that rejection oh I'm so

I'm So Unworthy I hate myself oh the

world's so awful they go all right I'm

going to go on to the next one I learned

what wasn't working there and you

develop some toughness if you don't

develop that toughness you're never

going to get anywhere in life and you

get it by trying and trying and working

at it and when you in that sort of first

chapter of your professional life is

there anything from all of the work that

you've done the writing that you've done

that a young person should be trying to

acquire and I say that should they be

aiming at knowledge skills reputation

money um Network definitely not money

definitely not reputation perhaps I mean

um yeah rep or fame um perhaps Network

can't help but what you really want to

do in this world in the 21st C

in our decade is skills you want to be

learning skills the more skills you have

and I mean true skills I don't mean

trying something out for a year and then

going on to something else for another I

mean getting real skill at something

right whether it's in computers whether

it's in the Arts in any field real skill

and then if you can develop two or three

skills by the time you're in your 20s

and still have some fun the world is

going to open up to you because what

you're going to be able ble to do when

you turn 30 is you're going to go I can

take that skill that I learned in

computers I can take that skill skill I

learned in media and in in creating a

podcast or whatever and I can create a

business that's going to combine the two

in a way that no one has ever thought of

because I'm a unique person the world

will open up to you skills are the gold

of the 21st century and if you're

seduced by money if you think about

money you're doomed because that's not

what matters in life because let's say

you have two job offers one is at

Goldman

Sachs opening position for 150,000 a

year and one is at some startup for

30,000 a year and you're living in New

York and you're going to be starving

you're going to be sharing a miserable

little flat somewhere in Bushwick

whatever okay take the $30,000 a year

job because you're going to learn so

much you're going to be handson whereas

in that other job you're going to be

lost in in their you're going to be

among hundreds of other young people and

you're not going to have

responsibilities here you're going to

have responsibilities so money is not

what matters to you because when you're

in your 20s you can starve you can live

on less food you can have it a little

tough because you're young I I know

myself I I lived I was very poor I lived

in

London had a job in London in 1984 I

believe yeah ' 84 and I was

making I think it was was3 a week maybe

it's less than that was by starting

salary and my girlfriend at the time the

only thing we could eat was turnips and

cauliflower cauliflower cheese was our

main dish but I was 25 I could handle it

so you can handle not making money and

learning because that's what's most

important I don't think many young

people in that first season of Life

realize how long life is so you know we

we try and take shortcuts we try and get

to the money as fast as we can but

you're telling me to take a longer road

which is the acquisition of skills even

at the cost of some of those short-term

rewards that are very tempting to post

on my Instagram yeah well I mean um also

you know you look at somebody like Steve

Jobs I can relate to that cuz he wasn't

interested in money at all it was never

the motivating factor it's never been my

motivating factor right I wanted to have

fun and I wanted to be successful and I

wanted to be able to write he wanted to

design the most beautiful pieces of

technology in the world it ended up he

was like the richest man of the world at

the time but he never cared about money

it wasn't what motivated him I never

cared about money and now I'm not as

rich as Steve Jobs but I'm doing fairly

well because it'll come to you if you

play the game right if you learn the

skills when you're young and then you

develop your own business by the time

you're 35 you'll be making four times

what you would have made at that Goldman

Sachs job right M that's that's the

that's how the game is played these days

starting your own business being an

entrepreneur being an entrepreneur is

the most powerful position you can

attain for aim for some people aren't

aren't you know destined for that that's

not in their DNA but to me that's what

what we should all be aiming for To Be

Your Own Boss because personally I hated

working for other people but being an

entrepreneur starting your own business

one that has a niche in this world

you're going to make all the money that

you'll ever need it's quite painful

being an entrepreneur though I think it

was actually Elon that said building his

businesses is like chewing glass and

staring into the abyss and I can relate

to some degree of the businesses that

I've built over the years and just the

immense hardship and uncertainty and you

know I guess there's at times a subtle

Envy for your team members who are

unaware of the chaos that one has to

endure to make sure everybody's paid on

time and you know make sure everything's

everyone's happy okay but um the lesson

for me in all of that is altering your

sense of what pleasure and happiness is

so in the moment it's painful right and

we don't like pain nobody likes pain I

don't like pain right but if your sense

of what pleasure is and happiness is

only like here from the present moment

to here it's going to be very hard to

get out of that but if you're your sense

of pleasure and happiness is here long

time yeah then then you've got you've

got power you've got maneuverability you

have room to maneuver and that's that's

the key to the whole thing so ah okay so

you're saying that if I have a

short-term view on happiness I I expect

it today now and every day yeah then my

life's not going to be great but if I

expect happiness to be a longterm yeah

so I mean look at you now is what I'm

trying to say you're pretty happy I

imagine yeah you're pretty fulfilled

right and you wouldn't have gotten there

if when you were 24 or whatever you just

gave up because it was so painful I

better just go grab that that easy job

working for a bank or something you'd be

miserable now whereas look at you now

that's what I'm trying to open people's

minds to follow Steven Bartlett here

that's that's the model one of the uh

things that I think helped me get here

is my dark side you talk about dark

sides a lot and when I say my dark side

I mean the the insecurity the shame the

um

the the wanting to fit in all of those

kinds of things that acted as a driving

force and a lot of people have a do and

I've heard you talk about how all great

Achievers have a bit of a dark side in

them um H how do

we how do we Channel our dark side so

that it's productive and not destructive

I was talking to someone the other day

who is a very successful entrepreneur

and they have their own story of like

shame and embarrassment and TR trying to

run away from a certain life they used

to have

and that made them successful but now

they work 18 hours a day they're just

like almost addicted to their work so I

wonder if it can go too far I see yeah

but they say they're happy they do yeah

they say they're really happy do you

believe

it it's hard to

distinguish true happiness

from the contentment that you get when

you

are successful escaping your dark side

do you know do you know what I mean by

that because this

individual has

successfully ran away from their

darkness and they appear to be in a a

state of contentment yeah because

they're s succeeding in their pursuit of

running away from their past but I don't

know if that's

happiness some Yogi might tell me that

Happiness is when you stop

running well um you know I I I worked

for somebody I was on the board of

directors for this company American

Apparel which no longer exists and the

CEO Dove Charney was the founder of the

company an incredible entrepreneur who

from one little shop here in Los Angeles

when I met him created this

Empire and it was incredibly rewarding

and he was a I'd say a very fulfilled

person but he couldn't stop he couldn't

stop it was like a demon possessed him

he had to have more he had to have he

had to build more buildings he had to

have more American apparels all over the

world he leveraged himself and then when

the crash occurred in 2007 just before

the company just after the company went

public he was so in debt that it the

company never recovered right he tried

too hard he didn't know the limits okay

so part of this isn't when I said If

Money motivates you then you're going to

have that demon if Fame and reputation

motivates you and that demon is going to

take seize you by the throat and going

to make you work 18 hours until

Everybody Eats your dust and you

humiliate all your enemies and you're

miserable right so knowing who you are

and knowing what matters is going to

save you from that kind of demonic

possession because you're actually not

going to be very successful if you're

like that you're going to burn yourself

out you're not going to have very good

ideas what happens to a lot of people

when they become successful is first of

all it goes to their head they think

they have the mest touch they think

they've got you know the Golden Touch

and then their minds start going in this

kind of uni this singular Direction they

learned how to do something and they're

just doing it doing it doing it doing it

and doing it and they don't know how to

learn they don't know that there's other

ways of doing things right and that's

what happens when you become completely

possessed and your mind isn't open and

isn't free and isn't expanding and

you're not creative anymore to be

creative will require you to try

something different to not expand your

company endlessly like he did and

instead to take the five branches that

you have here in Los Angeles and make

the product better and be more creative

with it and they'll be possessed by

money and fame and reputation that's the

answer I think there does that make

sense yeah it does yeah yeah something

that I think many many a person struggle

with which is in part this idea of

focusing on the thing in front of you

versus getting too distracted with other

opportunities and I wanted to talk to

you about this idea of focus sure and

how important you think it is for

Mastery yeah I mean so many young people

who will say to me oh I'm doing this

little crypto thing here and I've got

this hair business here and I've got

this other thing here what would you say

to those people that are trying to

become a master in this world as it

relates to

focus it's funny because I'm I'm I'm

helping a a the son of an friend of mine

who's who's who's got that problem and

he's incredibly successful I hope he's

not listening to this he's 20 years old

he's very wealthy he's done amazing

things but he's one of those people who

spread himself out to all these

different things he and I can't find a

through line what connects them all

except making money and having

connections and

stuff and it's very alluring in this

world particularly you know where

there's so many possibilities where you

can get on the internet you can learn

this out of the other people people are

doing these things you can get into

crypto you know you can you know start

your own business here you can get into

into the health and fitness world you

can and then later on try to figure out

how to connect them all but it life

doesn't work like that that's not how

the brain functions that's not what we

were meant for because it doesn't start

from you the whole thing has to start

from you it can't start from the world

it can't start from what other people

are doing it can't start from what's

sexy it has to come from within if it

doesn't come from within in then you're

going to be floundering for years and

years and years and so what I've done

with this young person whose name I

won't mention but I love dearly is what

is it that really is in your heart what

is it that you really really love how

can we connect this crypto with this

media business that you're starting with

the sports world that you're starting

with this Fitness thing what what

connects them all you know and to

me I I would was thinking I was getting

the sense we haven't solved it yet but

he's kind of

excited by celebrities and by that world

and that's fine I think there that's

there's nothing wrong with that so I'm

say well maybe what connects all this is

the film

business right because the film is is

pretty wide ranging to be a producer to

raise money you're dealing with all

kinds of different people you're

networking you're meeting starlets you

know it's a glamorous life but it's

focused okay okay so you know when you

focus on

something the world just kind of opens

up but you have to be focusing on the

right thing so if you were meant to be a

writer and then you decide because you

want money to go into law school and

then you focus very deeply on law school

what will happen is for a year or two

you'll be able to to Skid by but then

you'll the wheels will start going

slower and slower because you're not

interested in it you're not connected to

it you get bored and your focus will

start falling to pieces but if it's

something you love you can focus on that

for 7 8 10 12 years and never get bored

from observing a certain family member

of mine do a very similar thing part of

it as well is that when she would start

one Pursuit starting X

business it would get hard as it always

does and when you look over at the

person across the road they seem to be

having a much easier life with their

thing or with their crypto or with their

whatever and they tell you the story of

how much money they've made and how easy

it was whatever so you get tempted into

believing that the grass is greener you

pursue that so now you're doing two

things now your first thing starts to

suffer yeah and I think especially in

the early season of life when you don't

have Elon Musk resources much of the

game is focusing enough on one thing to

build those resources so that you have

the chance of being able to do it more

than one thing or spreading your bets a

bit more but in that first season when

you're in resource accumulation phase I

think my early investors in my company I

remember one day emailing my first

investor who's a very successful man and

saying I've got an idea and it was an

idea other than the one he' invested in

and I remember the email he I was 18

years old and he hit me so hard on that

email he was like if you don't focus on

one thing you will never ever you were

the one that was interested in this

other I was trying to the one yeah so my

investor was a very successful man and I

emailed him this other idea which I

thought was amazing yeah yeah yeah and

he sent me this email back which was

like being hit by a whip and he was like

if you don't focus on one thing now you

will never be successful cuz also you

rob yourself as you said of the chance

of accumulating deep skills yeah yes it

is um yeah I remember uh this is

something that wise people know and if

you're young if you have like a mentor

like you did who could tell you the the

truth the ropes as they are it will help

save you years of misery I remember when

we were at American Apparel it was the

Year 2007 the coming was just about to

go public I was about to be put on the

board of directors and this man came to

me who was like your investor and he

said Robert just make sure that doves

doesn't mindlessly expand make the brand

focused have it focused on one thing and

then he will be successful at the time I

thought that was interesting but I

didn't really have the guts to like

explain that to Dove but there are

people out there who understand the

truth of this but the other thing about

Envy like you say you see your other

friend doing crypto and they're having

so much fun and making so much money

tell you it's [ __ ] they're not

having as much fun as you think right

people create a front on Instagram or or

Tik Tok or wherever where life seems so

glorious but they're never having as

much fun as you might imagine you know

in in my book laws of human nature I

talk about Aristotle Onasis who in the

60s was the wealthiest man in the world

he was married to John F Kennedy's Widow

Jacqueline Kennedy Jacqueline

Onasis who could who could be happier

than that he had Yachts Etc he was the

most unhappiest miserable person in the

world as Jacqueline Kennedy explained in

in her autobiography he was such a

mean-spirited unhappy person yet

everybody thought envied him because he

had this beautiful wife and all that

money the people you envy are not doing

nearly as well as you think so don't let

that influence your decisions in life I

am I've never forgotten a certain Johnny

IV clip that I watched many many years

ago I think it was must have been five

years ago now where he talks about

working with Steve Jobs and this is what

he says in the clip and I've never

forgotten it never forgotten

it this sounds really simplistic but it

still shocks me how few people actually

practice this um and it's a struggle to

practice but is is this issue of focus

um Steve was the most remarkably focused

person I've ever met in my

life and um and the thing with focus is

it's not sort of like this thing you

aspire to or you you decide on Monday

you know what I'm going to be

focused it is a every minute a why are

we talking about this this is what we're

working on you can achieve so much when

you truly focus and one of the things

that Steve would say um because I think

he was concerned that I wasn't um he

would say um how many things have you

said no to and I would honestly I would

have these sacrificial things CU I I

mean wanted to be very honest about it

and so I say oh I said no to this and no

to that and um he but he he knew that I

wasn't vaguely interested in doing those

things anyway um so there was no real

sacrifice what what Focus means is

saying no to something that you with

every bone in your body you think is a

phenomenal

idea and you wake up thinking about it

but you say no to it because you're

focusing on something else yeah amen

that's you know that's the Church of

focus I agree with completely I

mean I hate using my own examples CU I'm

I'm a raw avice you know I'm a rare bird

but um you know I I have this book that

I'm writing okay and it's on a very

specific

subject and I get distractions all the

time people want you know I can do this

speaking engagement in India where I've

never been before or Egypt you know kind

of thing or get involved in this

television

project and I'm actually never really

seduced by it because I just love

writing but where it really comes down

to is I'm writing this book and I and

I'm it's been going really not well it's

because I'm not focused on the actual

thing I'm trying to say so you can bring

that level of focus down to the finest

finest point of your business or your

writing or whatever what is it you're

trying to say what is it you're trying

to accomplish what is your brand really

about get into the nitty-gritty get into

the little fine grains of sand and know

what that is so every time I'm writing

my

chapter and I start writing about

something that's not directly relevant

to what it's about and what the reader

is going to be interested in I'm making

a mistake and I make the mistake for

several weeks and then I realize it and

I pull back so that level of focus has

to have a lot of energy behind it

because you're so in love with what

you're doing that when you deviate from

it this little radar inside of your

brain goes

you're you're off you're off you got to

get back to it right and it's painful

but when you do get back to it and when

do things do click it's incredibly

pleasurable so the focus for young

people that seems so painful God damn it

everyone else is having so much fun and

I'm having to learn this just keep

telling yourself that you're doing

something that your brain is going to

reward you with several years down the

line so that friend of yours that seems

to be having so much fun

in 3 years they're going to be sliding

down the ladder working at some crap job

whereas you're going to be rising up so

just keep your mind on the on the on the

larger issue there and know that working

with what your brain is works well with

will pay incredible rewards down the

line this when they talk about

compounding returns in life they always

say that it's slow than it's fast and

even this podcast if you look at the

graph of this podcast for the first

three years of me recording in my

cupboard on Sunday nights alone

completely flat no one's listening and

then by year maybe I'd say year four or

year five it goes straight up yeah and

that's a consequence of those first

three years were acquiring skills

understanding what people liked and why

they like listening to the show and

actually getting better as a talker a

speaker an interviewer Etc and what most

people Miss is they miss that internship

of the slow lonely unrewarding couple of

years because they lose focus no one's

clapping no down downloads um I've never

seen another route I've never seen

another path there I've never seen the

overnight success well I mean I I I know

I can name five other podcasters who

have the same story as you who've told

me that Lewis house Chris Williamson Jay

Shetty they all have the same story for

several years nothing crickets and I

knew these people when they were just

starting out and and then that happens I

remember when I was working with 50 Cent

on the book the 50th

law you know

people look at at rap stars and they go

wow the Glamour the the fun the

excitement the sexiness the lifestyle

but he said you know I knew him because

I was with him nobody I worked harder

than 50 he was incredibly disciplined

and Incredibly focused and when he made

it in in the music business it took

incredible years of difficulty hardship

and failure but nobody ever sees that

they only see him in concert and and all

the glamour and all the fun they never

focus on the years of grit and near

failure he got shot he nearly died his

record label dropped him he had to work

his way back up into the music industry

from the very bottom until Eminem

finally noticed him um but we don't see

that in these celebrities all the grit

and the hard work that took them to get

there we just see the success and we get

seduced by the success I've heard you

referen before Howard Gardner's frames

of of Mind theory of multiple

intelligences book and in that book it

says that there are five types of

intelligences logical intelligence

linguistical intelligence interpersonal

intelligence spatial intelligence and

bodily intelligence and it defines them

quite differently logical is the ability

to reason and solve problems and think

in abstract terms like scientists and

mathematicians linguistical intelligence

is things like writers lawyers and Poets

you're one of those writers

interpersonal intelligence are leaders

psychologists and teachers spatial

intell are Architects artists and pilots

and lastly bodal intelligence is

athletes dancers and surgeons how

important is it to know your form of

intelligence to be successful in life so

figuring out what that is is incredibly

important and the reason why I like this

book so much is we tend to think of

intelligence as intellectual as you know

computer programming or mathematics or

whatever it is you know having a a PhD

in this field and but that's not

intelligence intelligence is also bodily

intelligence like somebody like Kobe

Bryant in basketball is is as

intelligent as Albert Einstein but in a

different way so you have a parent who's

always geared towards you know going to

the best school and and being an

intellectual Giant and their child wants

to do ballet or sports or something and

you kind kind of look down on that and

you say no no no you're setting your

child up for misery recognize what one

of these frames are for your child and

press on it and let them go in that

direction because it's what they're

naturally gearing towards it's what's

fun right so if for me it was linguistic

intelligence words I've just since I was

a child I just words bewitch me I can't

believe that we have words to name

things and that they're these symbols

with letters that have sounds but a

lemon isn't a lemon it's just a word and

I was like 5 years old what the hell can

that be that's so interesting you know

that you could take a word apart and

spell other words with it so I knew from

very early on that it was words words

words words and I absolutely stink at

one of these intelligence is is build is

mechanical intelligence knowing how to

build things I'm terrible at that which

is very odd because my father was

brilliant at that and he wasn't good at

any of the others and I didn't inherit

it so that goes all you know that kind

of debunks genetics right there but you

know so figuring out which one of those

and and leaning in it and making that

the direction of your life is so so

important so if your your thing is

interpersonal intelligence and you

understand that and yet you're not

heading into a job in which you're

social and around people you're going to

be so miserable but if you know that

what your thing is inter personal

intelligence you've got like a hundred

different directions you can handle into

you know that doesn't mean you have to

only be a social worker just means you

have to be a leader of people because

you understand you like being around

people you like working with others

you're very empathetic that could be a

hundred different kinds of jobs but once

you know that it gives you a sense of

direction it's by far the most important

step for people and I always recommend

people reading this book because it's

very very important much of the reason

we lose focus as I've seen in my own

friendship group in my own family is

because of

Envy yeah how important is it to get

control of one's Envy I've heard you

describe it as the ugliest emotion well

it's ugly in the sense of you know it's

an admission that you feel inferior that

you feel that somebody is better than

you are and who wants to admit that you

know there's a very famous psychologist

named Alfred Adler from the 20s he was a

disciple of Freud he thought this

ability of always wanting to be better

and Superior to others was the most

motivating factor of 90% of human

behavior that we always want to feel at

least that we're Superior in some way

and the sense that we're inferior

creates what he calls an inferiority

complex so it's very very painful to

tell

yourself that this person is doing

better than you are or that they're

younger and better looking than you are

that their wife is is more interesting

than you year their kids are doing

better because it means it's a slight on

you right we are very prone to Envy

genetically by the way our brains

operate so it's known factor that

chimpanzees are prone to feeling Envy

right if you give one chimp a banana or

a grape and don't give another one

they'll be giving you that kind of evil

eye that we the stink eye that we we

associate with Envy so it's it's

something that's in primates and what it

comes from I believe is our brains

operate by comparison that's how we

learn that's how we understand things we

understand that this is a wild animal

because it's not that other thing over

there our brains compare bits of

information to decide what is what

what's different from what's the other

thing so our brains are geared towards

towards comparing and when you create a

social animal we are the most social

animal on the planet and you have that

bra that's constantly comparing we're

using that mechanism to compare

ourselves to other people and always

wanting what other people have and

they've noticed in Hunter Gathering

societies from back in 30,000 years ago

the few that still had existed in the

20th century that Envy was a huge

problem among them and so that when one

person was given a gift everybody in the

tribe was so upset and angry that the

person who was giving the gift had to

give it to other people so they wouldn't

be the target of Envy because it could

lead to being murdered right so Envy is

deeply ingrained in all of us we

constantly comparing ourselves to others

okay but we don't want to admit it so if

I compare myself to some other writer

who I think is having a better life than

I am who's sold more books than me what

I'll do in my mind instead of saying he

deserves that or she deserves that

because they are actually a better

writer I'll go

They Don't Really Deserve they're

they're they're a hack they're just

doing that because they know what the

public wants and they're not I'm going

to be my books are going to be read 100

years from now but nobody will read

their books in five years I justify it

to myself right I don't feel Envy no no

no I'm not saying that person's Superior

in fact they're actually inferior to me

that's the games that we play when we

Envy other people and it's something

that that social media is like a nuclear

bomb of en right so 60 years ago I

wouldn't have known what my neighbors or

friends from college are doing and how

much more money they're making and how

happy they are but now you know what

everybody on the planet is doing and how

good they are and how happy they are and

the incredible trips they're taking and

you know the the great schools that

their children are getting into on and

on and on so it's this machine for

manufacturing envy and it's infesting

our political system as well it's

seeping into all aspects of life but

nobody wants to talk about it and nobody

wants to admit it the main thing with

Envy is to admit that you feel it okay

so I will say I will get on my hands and

I will say you know

what sometimes I actually Envy Ryan

holiday he's 30 years younger than I am

he's written already more books than I

have he before I even wrote my first

book he's got a family he's got these

great homes he's doing really well yeah

sometimes I feel Envy I'll admit it okay

if you don't admit it to yourself then

it just festers and something ugly will

happen and so what I'm able to do with

the feelings of envy that I might have

is I think God Robert there's no reason

to feel that way go through a process

and

go he's actually deserved all all the

success he's had you know he deserves

because he's worked really really hard

and he's a really good person he's

ethical he deserves it and so you should

be happy for him which I am I'm

incredibly happy for him but I have that

first little twinge of envy you have to

admit it to yourself and it's not an

easy thing to admit because it means

you're admitting you feel inferior for a

moment can you use it productively that

Envy yes most definitely and I I talk in

laws of human nature about strategies

for doing that one of them

is there's somebody that you Envy in the

world well instead of festering with

that ugly emotion make that a Spur

instead of Envy feel what's called

emulation where you're going you feel

competitive and you're going to be as

good as they are or better than they are

you're going to use that sense of

inferiority to motivate you to to work

harder and harder and harder another

thing is so when somebody has failure

and we're actually kind of gleeful about

it it's called shod and Freud right the

opposite of shod and Freud is a phrase

that n called midfa which means instead

of feeling pleasure in their pain you

feel their pleasure as well so instead

of feeling Envy try and feel happy for

the other person now you'll say that I I

can't do that but yes you can you have

to practice it there's a there's a great

Psych olist Nam William James who called

it an as if strategy so just tell

yourself that I'm actually happy for

their success and when you do that it's

actually a really great

feeling to actually feel good about

somebody else doing well is a very

ennobling feeling it kind of raises you

up instead of lowering you down and

making you feel ugly it makes you feel

Noble it makes you feel better about

yourself and it kind of opens up your

whole emotional life so those are I have

other strategies in the book but those

are a couple I was wondering why your

book

power is still selling unbelievably

well I mean most books when they come

out they have their moment and then

they're done but for some reason what

you write in this book is as compelling

tempting and attractive to people now

more than ever and one would then assume

that's because people feel more

powerless

And when they see the book it offers

them a promise of something that they so

desperately want yeah is that an

accurate assessment I think it is I

think it is I mean I've noticed um in

the last six years or so the sales have

been higher than they've ever been

before and a lot of it you know young

people went through the the crash of

2008 and they had to deal with the covid

and the pandemic and in those years

where where the world seemed upside down

the book was selling better than ever so

I think

helplessness and feeling a loss of

control and feeling like there might be

something out there that can guide me a

little bit in this very confusing

anarchic times that we're living through

can be very seductive and very appealing

so I mean we've always there's always

change in our world there's always chaos

but when the world when the book came

out in 1998 eight it wasn't nearly as

chaotic as it is right now so I I think

you're right I do attribute the success

not necessarily to my Brilliance or to

the Brilliance of the book but to the

fact that people are feeling more and

more help

powerless people are lonelier than ever

according to many of the stats and when

you look at the impact that's having on

people it's equal to smoking 15

cigarettes a day According to some

reports um they're more likely to live

alone they're more likely to feel lonely

report feeling lonely they're more

likely to feel that they have no nobody

to turn to in a time of Crisis According

to some studies as well yeah um they're

more addicted than ever before you can

class that in a number of ways chemical

addictions but social media addictions

and other things and that's the state of

especially young men you know it's it's

young women too are having their own

struggles especially with anxiety and

the comparisons and those kind of things

we've talked about but young people

generally and especially young men are

killing themselves at higher rates than

ever before

um suicide as you know is one of the

biggest killers of young men what is the

antidote for this this sense of

powerlessness loneliness isolation

addiction

aimlessness well you know we our our

tendency would be to bring it down to

the individual level but I think it's

also a cultural

problem I think our culture is

contributing to it um the kind of

aimlessness in our culture where we

don't really um talk about the skills

that are necessary to get ahead our

culture promotes all kinds of bad values

it emphasizes Fame and celebrity it

doesn't talk about discipline it doesn't

give young men a sense of purpose and

Direction it doesn't value them you know

right now a lot of young men feel like

of you know it's it's women that are

getting all the attention that what why

am I you know what is my purpose here so

it's I think it's a cultural problem

more than anything else and when I say

that that kind of absolves individuals

but I don't mean to do that as well

because you are an individual you live

in this culture and you've got to get

yourself out of that kind of hole that

this culture is is imposing on you and

so I have a lot of sympathy for it

because I don't think it's completely

your your fault that you feel lonely or

that you're isolated or that you don't

have friends that you don't know how to

socialize

you know I didn't have this phone in my

hand when I was in my formative years

and I had to meet women when I when I

wanted to you know at that point in my

life in the 70s when I was in my 20s and

so I had to go out there and suffer from

rejection I had to go to bars I had to

go to clubs I had to put myself out

there and meet them and it was tough and

I learned skills seduction skills

whatever you want to call them but just

social skills skills about you know

women think differently than you they

have different values than you what are

their values get outside of yourself and

think about what it's like to be them

and what you can do that's going to

please them and get them how you can

enter into their world you have none of

that now none of that it's all you know

um swipe swipe swipe yeah so you're not

going out you're not you're not

developing that muscle you're not

putting yourself in live interacting

with people where you're feeling their

body body language their non-verbal

communication so no wonder your social

skills are atrophying and as your social

skills atrophy it becomes harder and

harder and harder to go out there and

put yourself on the line because you're

not good at it so you you have a you

fall into this hole of becoming lonelier

and lonelier because it's harder and

harder to get out of it okay so I have

tremendous empathy and I would never

like preach or or or or or blame young

men in particular for the problem that

they're having and I empathize with it

very much so because I myself went

through a phase where I felt very very

unhappy and even suicidal when I was

younger and I understand how your life

can turn that way

so I don't mean to ever come across as

somebody who has all the answers because

I think it's cultural but if you are an

individual you have to see that first of

all it's not a bad thing necessar

necessarily to be lonely part of the

problem of loneliness is it's got this

this this taboo against it this bad name

like it's terrible to be lonely terrible

to be alone right and so you feel shamed

for the fact that you're lonely but

actually it's extremely important in

life to be alone sometimes and to be

able to be on your own and to think

about yourself and to kind of come to

terms with who you are and to embrace

What Makes You Different and you can't

do that if you feel ashamed about being

lonely or if you can't ever be alone so

knowing how to be alone is very

important it's what will make you

successful it will bring you skills so

don't think of it as something

necessarily terribly negative in your

life but the other thing is you have to

force yourself you force yourself to go

to the gym to develop muscles and become

stronger you have to force yourself to

interact with people and get out of your

phone and have real experiences instead

of virtual experiences and if you do

that 10 times a month just like going to

the gym 10 times a month your social

skills will get better and better your

your social muscle will get better and

better and you'll feel better about

interacting with

people on that point you um I remember

law I think it's was law 18 I'm just

having a look that isolation yeah do not

build fortresses to protect yourself

isolation is dangerous yeah Solitude is

not a defense because it cuts you off

from valuable information allies and

opportunities there's a difference isn't

there between being lonely and being

alone because being alone is one thing

but the state of

loneliness feels like it's a slightly

different

proposition well it's the difference

between you you

feel very unhappy that you're you're not

connecting to other people we're a

social

animal right and you feel like people

don't like you they don't respect you

that you can't interact with them on a

level that's

meaningful whereas the feeling of being

alone for

me wow I don't have to be around ugly

idiotic people I can just be by myself I

can read a good book I don't have to

interact with people whose ideas I don't

like I can just be myself and be as

weird as I want wow what a relief I'm so

happy being alone now I'm not like that

all the time it would be terrible but

sometimes I do feel that way and that's

the difference and that's a good thing I

I remember once I was on an

airplane and I saw a a young woman who

was by

herself and I could sense that it was

driving her crazy and she had to use her

phone to never feel alone right even in

the middle when were flying over the

ocean she had to like somehow connect

onto the internet and be and be sending

emails and texts and anything and I got

this kind of desperation in her this

this intuition this

feeling that being alone was just

horrifying for her you know and um I

think that's not a good thing I think

it's a terrible thing so yes isolation

is bad you need to be NE you're a social

animal you're meant to be around other

people but if you can't be alone you

can't ever figure out what makes you

different and What Makes You unique so

you have to be able to play both sides

of the game to to listen to that voice

yeah inside to turn inwards hard it is

hard to turn inwards when you never have

moments of solitude I guess when you

were you said you were suicidal in your

earlier years yeah what lifted you out

of that state well I I had a girlfriend

who was very understanding who helped me

a lot so I wasn't completely alone

um and then a little tiny voice inside

of me was saying you are you have

interesting

thoughts you're a strange person Robert

I've always been strange I never was

like other people in even in high school

I was always something off about me

which could be made me lonely which

could make me be a problem but I kept

saying there's something different and

off about you right and you have skills

as a writer it's it's going to happen

someday don't give up don't give up

don't give up keep trying right and so

finally I'm 35 36 years old I was in

Italy at the lowest point of my life and

then I met this man there who was a book

packager yast

elfers and he asked me if I had an idea

for a

book and suddenly just I almost get

emotional just thinking about everything

just shifted inside of me it's like

yeah I could write a a non-fiction book

and I just improvised what would turn

into the 48 Laws of Power he got so

excited he said I will pay you to write

the the the the uh I forget what the

word is to sell it you know and um and

then I'll pay you to live while you

write it and so suddenly it went from

Darkness to to light because I had a

purpose and all of my misery you know I

could take all of the Bad Bosses I had

all of the horrible psychotic bosses who

were so stupid and so political and so

manipulative and I could go wow I've got

all this material to write the 48 Laws

of Power all my worst experiences can go

into this book it all has purpose for it

I'm not saying that's going to happen to

everybody but I was literally at that

moment before it happened pretty much

near Rock Bottom and I asked my my wife

what would have happened if this didn't

turn out would I have committed suicide

would I I if I'd gone the same path and

gotten into H done some H hack job I'd

probably be incredibly overweight and

alcoholic and I might have already died

of a heart attack or maybe I would have

found my way to something else but it

was a really really low point in my life

purpose yeah it's crazy how it can lift

you out of Darkness it can turn the

lights on yeah it's just so unbelievably

hard to find for so many people I mean

you're not going to find it in your

bedroom necessarily sat there thinking

but you

know opportunities

come you just have to be ready for them

so I had this opportunity that came to

me and you might say well that's lucky

that's never going to happen to me but

it will happen to you you're just not

ready for it you're just not recognizing

it some person will cross your path

that can lift you out of what you're

doing who could connect you but you're

not paying attention you're not ready

for it you don't think you deserve it so

there is opportunity all all the every

day of the week you're you're it's

around you is what I'm trying to say

there's so many studies and there was

one on TV by I think it was Darren Brown

The Illusionist that show certain types

of people are pessimistic towards

opportunity and when you do studies

where you and there's one particular

study where they have a newspaper and

they give it to one group of people who

I think are pessimists and one group of

people that are optimists and the the

researchers say when you find the 100

pound voucher $100 voucher just come

back to us and what happens is they

scroll through the newspaper and the

pessimists never find it but on the

first page of the newspaper it says stop

the stud stop go to the researchers now

you've won $100 The Optimist find it

well and Darren Brown did a similar

thing The Illusionist in the street

where he put I think it was a like A50

pound or 100 note in the middle of the

street as they were walking down the

street and the optimists find it they

see it but the pessimist just walk right

past it yeah I think it was a winning

scratch card potentially and that really

opened my mind to like my my state my

mental state my psychology is

determining whether I see these

opportunities yeah or totally miss them

and then it's almost a stard spiral

because then I'll think God I'm such an

unlucky person right without realizing

that I'm playing a really important role

in creating my own fortune or Misfortune

right yeah I have a chapter in laws of

human nature about the nature of your

attitude creates your circumstances

which is sort of the same thing you're

saying which is there are two kinds of

attitudes that I talk about one is a clo

an attitude that's closing that's

constrictive that's narrow and there's

one that's expansive and open you could

call that pessimistic and optimistic but

the closed um attitude is you're only

seeing life through this narrow little

Spectrum where everything everything is

bad people don't like you there's

hostility all around you and what that

means is you're not seeing reality

you're creating reality you're creating

that reality you're seeing it and that's

what happens to you the expansive

attitude is life is amazing all these

incredible things are possible I have

hope any moment there could be an

opportunity and that's not reality

either but you're going to create that

Reality by feeling that way and taking

seing an opportunity the the smallest

crumb of an opportunity you're going to

create those good

circumstances so by your attitude you

create the bad things that happen to you

in life one of the um sort of adjacent

points here about purposelessness about

loneliness about the struggles and

plights of young men in the world that

they face and and young women is the

conversation around pornography if you

go on many of the social media apps

these days you will be exposed to pretty

explicit pornography whether you you

researching for or not there's certain

apps in particular where even if I'm

scrolling on my feed certain things will

pop up and I get Jesus Christ like you

know I'm at work here um and I was

thinking about this more broadly because

the studies show that about I think it's

like 80% of men and about 40% of women

in the United States use pornography and

I wondered if you had a view on how it

robs us of the of the hard work it takes

to form romantic

relationships

um and if the act of consuming

pornography is robbing us of the desire

for the real thing well it it's it's an

addiction and you have to understand

that you are being manipulated that you

are being programmed that these people

have figured out exactly the kinds of

things the kinds of images that are

going to hook you and you're being

played you're a fool they're playing

with you just like Mark Zuckerberg and

Facebook knows all the algorithms to

hook you to his to to the news feed

you're being played by by the images

they know how to create and keep you

always wanting more just like fast food

has all these tricks to constantly you

be eating their Doritos or whatever it

is okay but the other thing

is um so I'm not going to preach and

moralize about pornography from a a

prudish aspect of it because I'm not

approved but I have a

chapter in the book that I'm writing on

the Sublime on what I called love

Sublime and the act of loving not God

not the universe but another human being

and individual man or woman gay or

straight or whatever it is and how

Sublime that is and what it is is in

that

relationship the boundaries between the

two of you are allowed to melt and your

your ego can soften and you can feel

their world and they can feel your world

and you have a connection that for a

social animal is the highest form of

connection it's Superior to a religious

connection I'm sorry um and what it

requires is we we have the expression

falling in love and it literally is

falling it's like you fall fall fall

fall fall you're open and You're

vulnerable and you're letting yourself

fall and when you're not what stops you

from doing that is you don't want to be

hurt you don't want to be vulnerable

right because if you open yourself to

someone else you're likely to get hurt

and so the moment there's a disagreement

between you or there's a moment where a

friend says something nasty about this

person you're interested in you stop

falling you cut it off and that romantic

thing ends and dies but if you get past

that and you allow yourself to open up

completely and you just keep falling

falling and falling and falling

this incredible thing can happen and I

describe it to and I describe it the

Dynamics of that and examples of that

and why for a social animal it's like

the ultimate experience and so

pornography is completely robbing you of

that because love of another human being

is a sense of

Enchantment right there's like this this

spark that's happening this electricity

and it's obviously viously sex is

involved so it's a very physical

relationship as well but it goes beyond

that it also has a kind of spiritual

component right but it's a sense of

Enchantment Where the world becomes

alive to Everything Is Beautiful in the

world in those moments right and

pornography is disenchanting you from

everything it's making it all mechanical

and ugly and and and it it has no

romance to it it has no Dimension to it

it's almost as if the two humans

involved in it or however are like

machine parts right they're not human

anymore and there's no emotion involved

there's no kind of spiritual connection

it's depressing it's really really

depressing when I see it I feel really

sorry that I experienced this and I feel

really sorry for the people who are in

that industry I find it really really

ugly and alienating

now I'm not as a said a prud and I under

and I could

watch a moov a great movie with a love

scene in it and it's very exciting and

beautiful but the seduction element the

element of I saw a movie recently a

Japanese movie by the great director U

from the

50s and there was a man who was married

and he was about to have an affair with

this woman who was kind of seducing

him and they had this kiss I go I

thought wow W I was getting I use the

word turned on but I was getting really

excited it was so full of emotion and

energy and it made the sexual element so

much more powerful by the element of

Romance by the element of something kind

of transgressive there was no nude

bodies there was no sex you ever get to

see but the leadup to it and the nature

of the emotions evolved made it to me

deeply deeply exciting and if young men

particular can't have that experience if

everything is so mechanical is so

computerized it's going to be like AI

it's going to be like AI sex you know

then you're losing your soul you're

losing your capacity for really falling

in love for really having that kind of

dimensional experience which by the way

can be extremely physical and it can

only last for three months I'm not

saying it has to be 20 years with one

woman or one man it could be for three

months

but it enriches you it create it makes

you more

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Amazon the other thing that a couple of

psychologists on my podcast before have

alluded to on this subject is that they

told me about a study with rats where

they messed with the part of the rat's

brain that is responsible for causing

dopamine and then when they put food in

front of the rat's mouth if the rat was

it was like 6 in from the rat's mouth

the rat would starve to death because

they had impacted the rat's dopamine so

it no longer had motivation and they

speak of dopamine as the sort of

motivation chemical it's the thing that

gets you to take action so if you're

frying your dopamine receptors by doing

these sort of high dopamine activities

oh right right I'm wondering if you're

going to if we're we're sort of breeding

a a culture of lower motivation

individuals and because of this Eis I

was kind of looking at some some studies

around this and it does say that

constant exposure to high dopamine