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People know Jack, mate, for being the

guy to slag stuff off, and that's funny.

And then when the content dried up,

well, I've now got to go and look for

someone who's doing something wrong. You

can only do that for so long before you

just hate yourself.

Didn't really get on with my mom. She

would do and say things that I don't

think any mom should really do. things

would happen at home and I'd have like a

mark on my face like from someone that

shouldn't have given me that mark. I

made a video reacting so well as advent

calendar. That changed the game for me

and the the upload before that I was

going to quit. I struggle with um health

anxiety and OCD. There's probably 15 to

20 times a day where I actually convince

myself that I have cancer.

So, you're too fearful to go and get a

health check done?

If I go there and the doctor's like,

"Yeah, you're ill." Then that's the end

for me.

What do you mean that's the end for you?

[Music]

Jack, give me the uh give me the context

on your life. You know, I I sat here

yesterday with Israel Adisa and he told

me about his childhood. Um and there was

hints of that that really kind of felt

similar to the experience that I read

you've had as as a young man as well.

And then also I think the other one

where I could see real distinct

similarities and I think you might have

listened to this podcast is Jimmy Carr.

Yeah. Yeah. What a man.

Yeah. What a man. Right. He's like I

didn't realize he was he was going to be

such a philosopher. One of the things he

said to me was you know when someone

becomes a comedic figure which I

consider you to be in many respects. I

think you Yeah. Good. Okay. Um he he

says that instead of asking because

there's you know there's this kind of

stereotype that the person themselves is

struggling with something and they're

trying to make other people laugh. He

said to me, as you might have heard, he

said, "You've actually got to ask them

which one of their parents they were

trying to please or to to make happy."

Does that resonate with you at all?

Um, yeah. I mean, upbringing didn't

really get on with my mom, I don't think

she truly understood the potential in

YouTube, whereas my dad always did. So,

when I was sort of like like I guess How

old are you, Steve?

29.

29. Okay. So, I'm 29 in like two weeks

time. So like we we were kind of like

the first kind of content creators in a

way like we we kind of like paved the

way if you will. Some people did.

Yeah. I was late to the party.

Well, people like Charlie is so cool

like did and I just followed them I

guess. But um yeah, my mom didn't really

get

she might she might argue this point. I

don't know. But I don't think she really

saw the um the potential in what I was

doing. So I was just some kid in my

bedroom just talking to a camera just

waffling not getting a real job sort of

thing. and um she has she has her issues

and stuff with alcohol and whatnot.

Ended up kicking me out. Long story

short, um I was kind of at a crossroads

at some point quite early on, maybe like

18, 19, where I was living in my uncle's

box room at his at his um flat, which

isn't the nicest environment in the

world, I think he wouldn't mind me

saying. And then I kind of thought,

okay, I have to try and take this

YouTube [ __ ] serious. And at that time,

I didn't know what the YouTube [ __ ] was.

So, ever since that moment, I think the

pivotal moment for me was I bought a

whiteboard.

I bought a whiteboard and that changed

that. Yeah, that that changed

everything. And because I never took

YouTube serious like a job, like a 9

to5. It was always something that I

would just

just do just just moan about something

or take do a funny take on something or

whatever. So, I bought a whiteboard,

chopped it up into a month and wrote my

plan. And then I think it was in like

2012, I had this thing where I was like,

I'm just going to say yes to anything

that comes in my inbox. And I just for

365 days just did. And then ever since

then, it's just felt like I'm on this

weird kind of I've still not worked it

out. Like you've got your [ __ ] together,

Steve.

No, I haven't. No, I haven't.

Look how many cameras there are.

It doesn't I think cameras isn't, you

know, an indication of having my [ __ ]

together. But okay, I take

You're a dragon. It's mad, isn't it?

Yeah.

Just the word dragon, like that's

mental.

It is. It is crazy. You've just reminded

me of how much I resonated with what you

were saying because I had a really

um what's the right word?

I had a a real issue with the fact that

my mother was so different,

right,

and so challenging at times. Like, as I

write about in my book, showing up to my

school in her lingerie when I was maybe

seven years old.

Yeah.

And things like that.

and and I've always

really wanted to have a normal family

and a normal

mother and that kind of thing. And I

kind of I kind of got that from reading

your stuff. And there's a couple of

things where you talk about some of the

challenges you think she has,

which I also think my mother has.

Oh, wow. Really?

She's actually started to talk a little

bit about that.

Yeah.

Um, sorry. Yeah. I don't know if my

mom's ever been diagnosed with it. Um

cuz there's always been kind of like

rumors and that that that's the case and

I've cuz I've not been a part of her

life in the past like 8 n years. I don't

know.

Oh, you haven't?

No, not really. I see her at like my nan

at Christmas time and stuff, but there's

always a very awkward kind of vibe where

now it's kind of just like nodding

terms. And for someone who's your mom,

that's a weird that's a weird thing to

be. Yeah. It's just it's just Yeah.

Growing up, it's just you hit the nail

on the head there when you said about

your mom. like she would do and say

things that I don't think any mom should

really do. And it's hard now because at

what point do you at what point is it

water under the bridge? Like at what

point do you go, "Okay, I'm just going

to

make up with her." Sounds very like

juvenile and stuff, but when so much has

happened in your past, how when is the

day when you go, "Okay, I'll accept you

again now." And she sees that cuz she'll

text me every now and then. But my worry

is that because she's always struggled

with alcoholism,

she'll text me at half 11 on a Saturday

night. I want to get that text message

at 10:30 on a Tuesday morning. I don't

want to get it at 11:30 on a Saturday

night. So, I won't reply and then she'll

just assume that there's a lot of

animosity still there. And I guess there

is. But yeah, it's funny cuz I sat here

actually I think yesterday with my

sister and I don't see my sister much. I

think I see my sister once a year. And

my sister really wants me to kind of

like reconnect with my mom and like get

back on good terms with her. But um for

the exact for the I think it sounds like

pretty similar reasons to you. I was

trying to explain to my sister that like

I need to have boundaries with everybody

in my life, not just like my friends,

but also with my family. And at at some

point you've got to protect yourself.

Yeah. from going back around the [ __ ]

you know like taking them back in

forgiving them for whatever they might

have done for you done to you and then

getting sucked back in because you know

you're

you've fallen for this trick once

almost.

Yeah. Oh mate I've fallen for it too

many times. Yeah. And and I really got

my life together and I started on this

kind of trajectory where I am now once I

left home. That was when it was kind of

like okay you need to make this work or

you you you're just done. You're just in

your uncle's box room forever sort of

thing. So if it weren't for my mom, I

wouldn't have bought that whiteboard.

Yeah. What a pivotal moment. What about

your dad? I I heard that story about

watching the World Cup. And that was

Yeah. My my dad's quality. My dad is

quality cuz he's been through a lot of

stuff in his life. So I don't know if

you know, but my dad went to prison for

manslaughter when he was young. Very

young. Um yeah. Got in got in a fight

with um with with some some bloke

outside a pub. Got in a in a in a

dispute and uh hit him and the guy fell

and and passed away. And that plagues my

dad now because they're just two kids

fighting in a in a in a pub car park.

Like so he went to prison. He came out

and he's just he's just a grarafter.

Like that pains him inside. He has to

live every day with that. Obviously it's

not right what he did but um I'm never

I'm never going to say that. But he's

brought me up with a lot of morals and

it's taught me if you ever get in any

fights like you run away. Like you don't

need to be the big man like like he was.

And he's always had my back from day one

and he's he's like my best mate. So, for

example, like when I first got my my

first YouTube check through, I think it

was like $60 was like the threshold that

you had to get back in the day.

And I think I got paid so that £45 quid

or something. And um

I'm from a I'm from a council estate.

Never had any money. And I got that £45.

And instead of giving my mom any money,

I just went to Top Man, bought some

t-shirts. Like you remember them old

sort of t-shirts with the color?

Yes. With the little buttons down here.

Oh my god. I wanted every color. Like

the collar was different color to the

top.

Yeah. And the buttons were different

colors. Yeah. And I and I got a couple

of those and um I was I was in my room

and I remember my mom coming in and

having a go and being like, "Oh, you

should give me like half of that or

whatever." And then she went, "And

you've just wasted it on [ __ ]

t-shirts." And I had done that. That is

literally what I'd bought. But my dad I

remember my dad coming in and going, "He

needs those t-shirts cuz he can't be

wearing the same stuff in all of his

videos."

And it was like he didn't know if that

was why I was buying them or not. But

like he he'd literally just made up a

reason to to apply it to my YouTube

channel and justified why I was like why

did I have to justify at that age why

I'm buying t-shirts? But my dad just

knew from the off. I I guess none of us

really knew the potential in YouTube

back in the day. We were all just sort

of testing the waters and just having

fun. But I feel like my dad kind of had

an idea that I he he trusted that I saw

something in it even if he didn't. So I

owe him a lot in that respect. So now

when I see him, if I've been doing good

in my life, bad in my life, if I've

Yeah, I'll tell him everything and he'll

just give me the best advice ever. And

yeah, it's just I'm glad I had him

because he was very much the the

counterwe.

I really vividly remember the moment

when my dad called me to the kitchen

table and basically said, "I don't love

I don't love your mother."

Right.

Like I can almost remember what I was

wearing. And I remember from reading

about your story that there was a moment

where your dad basically said, "I'm

going to leave after this football

match."

Yeah. Yeah. head during the World Cup

final, 2006 I think it was when Italy

won on penalties and Saddam did that

head.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um

Yeah. So my mom would always kick him

out. Yeah. She'd always just when she'd

had enough, kick him out. And it was

very much a case of I think my dad loved

my mom more than my mom loved my dad.

And my dad was I think he'd admit he was

like the the kind of like lap dog that

would come running back. My mom would

kick him out and he'd come back and it'd

be k I'd see it I'd see it as a kid like

them having an argument. he'd be kicked

out so unfairly like and I would just I

wouldn't be able to work it out. But I

kind of understood it because I was on

the receiving end of that kind of

judgment and and stuff sometimes. So I

remember he would she'd always kick him

out and he'd go around his friends and

I'd go and visit him at his friends and

again he had a little box room as well

and he hated it and he was a proper

grafter working all the hours under the

sun. So one day he just went, "She's

going to kick me out again and I'm and

I'm just gone and then and I'm just

going to go and he and luckily like he

didn't travel to the other side of the

world. He just went to a town 30 30

minutes up the road." But yeah, we was

watching a football game, World Cup, and

I thought I better enjoy this cuz it's

going to be different after this. And I

think it was a bit different after that

cuz I think

if if home life was ever bad, he was

always the one that I'd be able to chat

to about it and that. And then after

after that, it's a good job. thought it

was a good football game. Otherwise,

that would have been [ __ ] wouldn't it?

Was there um was there a point you got

to where you kind of wanted your parents

to separate for because I I fought it

for a long time and I was like I

remember crying my eyes out as a kid at

the prospect of my parents separating

and then I remember I think maybe

getting to like 14 or 15 where I was

like I'd actually prefer you guys to not

live in the same place.

Yeah, I think that's accurate to me.

Yeah. I I I don't know. I'm just looking

back and seeing it differently. But I

don't think I gave a [ __ ] really when it

happened. I think it I'd all I'd always

see them break up and get back together

and break up and get back together. And

I think like

I'd see my dad like stay up all night

writing my mom love notes and stuff and

she'd wake up and not not be asked get

get rid of him. And I'd see that side of

it. As a kid, I don't think that should

have been a side that I I did see

necessarily. Um the the rejection from

from her for someone that she's supposed

to love. So when he when he was gone, I

was kind of like, "Yeah, go fly."

Yeah. Yeah. And then he met his his new

partner who's lovely. And then ever

since then, that's been a little haven

as well, just going around there and

just venting and stuff. So

did you ever figure out why why she was

the way she is? Did you ever try and

figure it out? Was it like a

generational thing that was her parents

or something or something had happened

to her?

I don't know. Because her mom, my nan,

is the loveliest woman in the world. So

I see my nan all the time. I've got her

tattooed on me there. Um,

so I don't know where it came from. I

just think she's she just has or she had

she might be completely different now,

but she definitely just had issues. And

I don't know whether that's drink,

drugs, whatever that may be. Um,

maybe I haven't given her enough time to

actually think about why she's like that

really. I don't know.

And she's never had help or anything

like that.

Not that not as far as I know. No, not

as far as I know. But my life has been

richer and mentally I've been a lot

healthier with without her in my life,

which sounds horrible. Um, but that's

the that's the truth of it. Maybe one

day we'll be able to sit down and talk

it all talk it all through, but not not

today and probably not tomorrow.

What about school? You in school? What

were you like?

Uh, just a little I was quite short

actually. Little ginger um [ __ ]

really.

I was all right. I was all right.

Yeah. I just I would just show off to

the cool kids. I'd want to be I'd want

to be accepted a lot. So I'd show off to

the cool kids and I remember I used to

always like say what I think were funny

little oneliners and not get a laugh.

And then once I put a ruler in a fan and

it went and I got the biggest laugh ever

and I thought what is this like what

what am I doing? So I just became a bit

of an idiot in the last few years and

was just trying to make the the cool

kids laugh. So there there is a lot lot

of regret for how I was at school as

well cuz I wasn't a bully. I'd never say

I was a bully but I was a bit of a prick

to teachers as well. And there was one

teacher in particular, I just go in her

class and I just wouldn't be asked and I

would just never listen and she'd try. I

wonder if in a in a weird way like

she'll stumble across this video and uh

Miss Chapman was her name, English

teacher, and I'd love to reconnect with

her and just apologize cuz I I mean or

we all were, but that was no

justification for me individually, but I

was just a bit of a prick. I would never

listen. And I guess being ginger and

every everyone's got things that people

like get picked on for as a kid, but you

you try and you try and fit in. So I I I

tried to fit in by being the the class

clown, the funny one. And that's such a

cliche. And I hate when people say they

were the class clown cuz what that

translates to is you were just a bit of

a [ __ ] And that's but that's what I

was. So

yeah, Miss Chapman, if you're if you're

watching this, I apologize. You were

great.

I hope she is.

I hope she is. Was it just because you

were ginger though and you were being

picked on a little bit that you were

trying to like find a way for them to

appreciate you? Was that you think that

was it?

Yeah, I discovered bleach. Bleached my

hair and

I relaxed mine so it was straight. No,

I'm just I'm just cool with this short

afro thing,

right? Yeah. Well, yeah. I Yeah, I

discovered bleach and then I remember

just going to school the next day like

that scene in Bruce Almighty where I'm

like birds are flying on me

and I was Yeah, I was a different person

then. Um Yeah. And then and then but

then I was predicted all the top grades

like I was predicted like 12 GCSEs or

whatever it was like top marks in

everything and I just completely [ __ ]

it really and got like five just scraped

it. So um yeah I was a bit a bit bit of

an idiot really. I only sort of took

life serious after school when Thank god

I found YouTube because God knows what

I'd be doing if I didn't.

Was was there a connection in your view

when you look back between your home

life and your school life? I think cuz

you said was it year 10 or 11? can't

remember that things kind of went

downhill for you. I wondered if there

was there there was a link at what with

in your mind of what was going on at

home and what you know your school

performance decline.

Um I I maybe maybe I could I could sort

of blame home life, but I I I I probably

wouldn't. I'd probably just say it was

more a case of wanting to fit in,

discovering at an early age I wanted to

be the funny one. I've always been the

center of attention as well or wanted to

be the center of attention I should say.

So, as soon as I discovered, oh,

self-deprecating works and putting

myself down works, that gets a laugh.

I'll do that. And then you're invincible

then because if people are calling you

a ginger [ __ ] if you call yourself a

ginger [ __ ] before them,

disarming.

Yeah. Now I've got the cards. Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't think the home life the

home my home life affected school

probably the early years in in high

school because like not to go into too

much detail but like things would happen

at home and I'd have like a mark on my

face like from someone that shouldn't

have given me that mark and I'd go to

school and say the cat done it and I

didn't have a cat. So so it's like that

really I think that really affected me.

There's little things as well, like I

remember like I had these ornaments,

Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. I

don't think I've even seen the film, but

I love these ornaments and then I'd done

something at home that was naughty or

something. Stayed up too late or played

the PlayStation too much. And then

someone came in and threw the threw the

shelf down and smashed those ornaments.

And I remember as the shelf was on the

floor, I remember think I was only a

kid. I was probably like 10, right? And

the shelf was on the floor. There's a

big standing bookshelf. And I was I

remember thinking, "Please, please don't

say those ornaments are broke. I I love

them for some reason." And I remember

lifting it up and they were all broke.

And that was the moment where I was kind

of like, "I [ __ ] hate this shit." So,

I remember going to school and having to

deal with stuff like that. Um, but in

the in the later years when I kind of

had YouTube and found my feet a little

bit more and who I wanted to be, I found

it a bit easier even if I was pissing

the grades up the wall, so to speak. Do

you ever worry because I something I as

I've gotten older I think as we get

older sometimes the like some of the

earlier things we learned about love or

relationships or how you treat people or

how you respond or your temper they they

can sometimes um surface and you cuz I'd

have moments where I'd see parts of my

parents and myself that I maybe didn't

love. Have you ever got seen glimmers of

that home life that you think in

yourself when you go [ __ ] I don't want

to be that person? That's that's such an

amazing question that is like that's so

that me me and my sister have discussed

this as well because I have I have

because I because I

separated from my mom so to speak at

quite quite an early age just after

after school. I think I've lost all of

her her traits that I had in me because

they were such negatives to me. I really

noticed them like her biggest negatives

like stood out like a sore thumb. So I

actively had to not take them on myself.

Um whereas my sister, she had a she had

quite a few of her her my mom's negative

um traits and we've spoken about this

now as adults and she's like, "Yeah, I

have to actively like whenever I think

like mom would think or do something mom

would do, have to try and get rid of

it." I have a lot of my I give my dad

all the credit. I have so a lot of how I

am is because of my dad, but I also have

my dad's negative traits as well, which

I think he would say. And and my dad not

so much now, but especially after what I

told you about his upbringing and he

anger was his thing. So, and I have I

have that not luckily I have it under

control. It's never going to affect

anyone else or hurt anyone else. But

like for example, if I'm editing and the

software shuts down, I'm like, "Fuck."

Like I'm re like instantly I'm so angry

inside. And Fiona will have to be like,

"Jack, just chill the [ __ ] out. Like

this isn't that deep." And then I'm

like, "Okay, as long as I remember where

I got this from and what if I can

pinpoint it on something, I'm a lot I'm

a lot better." Um, luckily that's never

got me in into any trouble. If I'm out

and someone says anything to me, I I

don't get that. I get it through over

trivial sort of like trivial things.

But yeah, um I definitely do have have

some negative uh traits about me from my

parents.

Have you ever gone to like therapy or

spoken to anybody to try and understand

these patterns or to spot them or

anything? Or is it just from like

self-reflection that you've noticed?

Um I did I did anger management classes

at school. Oh, really?

Yeah. Um, but for they put me in them

for something I didn't do. I remember

walking in the library once and I was at

the bottom of these stairs and this guy

just gets thrown down the stairs at my

feet and the teachers come in and seen

it and I'd have to do 12 weeks hanging.

I swear to I I promise you I'd done a

lot of like mad [ __ ] at school, but that

was not one of them. I didn't know how I

could throw him and then be down there

before him. He was on my feet, so it

didn't make sense. Um, so yeah, I

remember doing 12 or six weeks anger

management. Um, but I kind of needed

them. So even though I didn't actually

throw down, I probably would have been

the guy to maybe do that one day had I

not had them. I can't remember anything

we spoke about in those lessons, but

yeah, that's the only time I've really

debated it.

Does it does it does it not ever crop up

in in your professional work like anger

issues with uh like colleagues or with I

don't know with people? No, I think I

think I've over the years I've mellowed

out so much. I've I think I've matured

so much as well and I think that shines

through in like my old kind of like main

channel content because I made a name

for myself on YouTube by being kind of

like the anti- YouTuber and like

slagging off other YouTubers and but I I

remember turning on the camera and

putting on such a fake anger because I

was talking about things I didn't care

about. Oh, Ollie White's got some new 30

pound t-shirts. Let's moan about that.

Mainly because I knew I'd get a million

views from it. Not that I cared. So, I

got really good at turning the camera on

and putting this kind of like faux like

anger like fake an like I guess because

I was pretending to be angry all the

time.

I was very alert when I actually was

angry and I could keep that keep that

under control. So,

do you regret any of those videos as

you've matured? You say you've mellowed

out and matured now and you even spot

that you were doing them from like a not

an authentic place, right? Do you regret

them?

Uh, there's some I definitely do regret.

Yeah, the the majority I'd say no. Um,

obviously we we we both know that I'm a

big fan of Ricky Jes and he always one

of his mantras is there needs to be a

why in comedy. Why are you doing

something? If you're targeting someone,

why are you doing it? Like um and a lot

of my early main channel content. Like

for anyone who doesn't know, like I made

a video reacting to Zoella's advent

calendar.

Everybody knows it's got like six

million views, isn't it? Yeah. Crazy.

It did. All right. That changed the game

for me in terms of YouTube. I was I was

going to quit the the the upload before

that. I was going to quit and then I

upload that video and it changed the

game. But like when I look back on

videos like that, I I have no regrets

because it was funny. It the comedy

almost like it wrote itself. Like there

was a reason why I was doing it. It was

it was a sketch. That's all it was. But

there would be times when I fell into

the trap of like, okay, people know

Jack, mate, for being the guy to slag

stuff off and that's funny, whatever.

And then I'd find a few things that

naturally did piss me off and I could

draw humor from it. And then when the

content dried up, it was kind of like,

well, I've now got to go and look for

someone who's doing something wrong and

become this kind of like

sort of white knight of of the internet

sort of thing. And it was like it's

never who I was. So I did I did my first

ever video with Ricky Jes and and and

that was the biggest moment ever for me.

And then I remember uploading the video

and the interview was brilliant and the

top comment was, "This is good, Jack,

but Ollie White's released some new

t-shirts that you haven't spoken about."

And I thought, "Fuck me." So I've got

now that's what you want from me is

that. So then I'd go I'd then go out of

my way to go, okay, Zoella in the title,

Bangs, Views, what is she up to? Oh,

she's released a book. Now, that book,

there was nothing wrong with that book,

but I'm trying I'm actively trying to

pick flaws in it that I can dissect on

my channel. And it's like there that's

kind of like the stuff I I I regret. I

remember KSI and Joe Weller, they did

their when I was trying to be Edgy Boy,

Edgy Boy Jackm, Mate, they did their

first press conference for their fight

and that was in

in Manchester, I think it was. And and

and because I was the black sheep of

YouTube, I would never get invited to

them. So therefore, by default, the

jealousy would take over and I'd be

like, "This is [ __ ] I want nothing to

do with it. Where deep down I knew that

I wanted something to do with that that

whole YouTube boxing scene at I'm a

boxing fan. I'm a YouTube fan. So why

would that not appeal to me? Um and they

did they did a press conference and JJ

he um he said something about Joe

Weller's medication which I don't agree

with but in the context of a press

conference you say anything you can to

get the upper hand. And I remember just

turning on my camera straight away and

was like KSI needs to be cancelled blah

blah blah cuz I knew it would bang

views. But JJ's a hero of mine, as I'm

sure he is to any YouTuber, any content

creator. Joe Weller, I was I I used to

watch every single one of his videos. I

I love Joe Weller. So, they're the ones

I regret when I wasn't be being

authentic and not even really being

funny, just actually trying to go in on

someone cuz I wanted that check at the

end of the the ad revenue to be higher

that month.

When you were doing that, so when you JJ

JJ mentioned the medication thing, you

hit record. Was it like I can make some

money here or was it I can make some

money and get attention?

Probably a bit of both. Yeah, because

they go hand in hand, don't they?

Especially especially on YouTube. So,

probably a bit of both. Um,

it's mad that you're so self-aware about

this like and you're just like you're

really good at diagnosing exactly why

you did it from like a psychological

incentive perspective. You're like, I

wanted this or I did this. I wasn't true

to myself. I did it. And it and that

suggests like you've done a lot of kind

of reflecting and soulsearching and

maturing in what is actually a very

short space of time

because this was only this is not you

know a lifetime. This is not a decade

ago.

That video was probably four and a half

five years ago.

Yeah.

Tops.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's cuz it was I I realized a

couple of years ago it wasn't who I

wanted to be. I was probably I I I

recently did a brand trip with Cal

Freezy and and the burnt um the burnt

chip

and I was speaking to them out one night

and I'd never done a trip with another

YouTuber. I was always YouTubers are

very clicky and they're all in their

groups. Um and I was always on the

outside of that. I was always this boy

from Norwich just have my normal mates

and they surround themselves with

YouTubers and I remember saying to them

one night.

I think the main reason why I used to go

for him is because I wanted to be him. I

I'm I'm one of the OGs. I really am.

I've been doing YouTube

probably around the this to the the same

month that JJ uploaded his first one.

Like we would have been there at the

start and Cal Freezy, Klex, all of these

lads, uh Mini Mina, and I and I probably

I see them become a collective. And I

was like, why am I not part of that?

Like, and now I don't give a [ __ ] I'm

so happy and content with where I'm at.

And I've built my podcast now. But but

as a as a kid, as a even as an 18y old

young man growing up seeing that feeling

left out,

it probably goes back to how I was at

school as well. I thought, okay, if if

if you if you can't join them, slag them

off, become the Darth Vader of YouTube,

so to speak. Um,

yeah. And then in recent years, people

started to discover that other people

that I really respected like Will and

people on you. And then even though Will

was my friend, like it still is my

friend, like he'd call me out publicly

when I'd be slagging someone off and go,

"Have a day off, mate." And I would be

so angry because because it was accurate

and I'm like I'm sat there like so right

and I'm no I'm not bothered, mate. Like

that kind of that kind of thing. So

yeah. Yeah. I was speaking to Cal Freezy

about that and yeah, I've got a lot I've

got nothing but respect for for him.

Wow.

My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday

when I was having a shower and she said

to me that she tried the Hu protein

shake which lives on my fridge over

there and she said it's amazing. Low

calories, you get your 20 odd grams of

protein. You get your 26 vitamins and

minerals and it's nutritionally

complete. In the protein space, there's

lots of things, but it's hard to find

something that is nice, especially when

consumed just with water and that is

nutritionally complete and that has

about 100 calories in total while also

giving you your 20 grams of protein. If

you haven't tried the Hel Protein

product, do give it a try. The salted

caramel one, if you put some ice cubes

in it and you put it in a blender and

you try it, is as good as pretty much

any milkshake on the market just mixed

with water. It's been a game changer for

me because I'm trying to drop my calorie

intake and I'm trying to be a little bit

more healthy with my diet. So, this is

where Hu fits in my life. Thank you, Hu,

for making a product that I actually

like. The salted caramel is my favorite.

I've got the banana one here, which is

the one my girlfriend likes. But for me,

salted caramel is the one. You not only

did the whole YouTube thing, but you

also provided this like online

commentary almost constantly about how

you were feeling about it. So, you were

one of the the sort of rare YouTubers

that like in real time would say, "I've

lost motivation for this. I'm going to

try and find my motivation for this.

I've lost motivation for doing this kind

of thing. I'm doing that." You know what

I mean? And you were very open. So, even

for me, I as I logged into Twitter, I

could kind of see where you were on this

journey. Obviously, I've seen that

change a lot with the whole podcast and

the Spotify thing, which feels like you

really found something that you do find

like really enjoyable, but with your

main channel,

I watch you go through these waves of

enjoyment and then seeing you say,

"Right, I'm going to try and commit to

it now and then that didn't really

work." And then,

so tell me about that journey with

YouTube and and what you learned about

yourself from that.

Oh god, it's really good questions. It's

got to be said like, "Wait till you come

on my podcast. Your favorite sandwich."

I genuinely have watched it and and this

is why I kept trying to you know messag

you like come on my podcast because

that watching that journey taught me so

many things and it really reconfirmed a

lot about for me that I've been reading

about in psychology about what keeps

people motivated and when they're not

doing things that are in line with who

they are or where they're doing it for a

check I remember reading this study

which said if you love doing something

and then they pay you to do the exact

same thing you lose your motivation. So

the minute it goes from being a hobby

I'm doing for the love of it to a hobby

that I love doing but now someone is

paying me for,

there's this weird thing that happens in

the mind where people lose motivation

for the exact same thing.

Go going off that and I'm not sure if

this answers your question, but I found

this really interesting. I couldn't

really work it out myself.

I spent my whole YouTube kind of main

channel era like just saving up all my

money. Just saving up all my money. Like

the only thing I was I had the blinkers

on. I was like, "Buy a house, buy a

house, buy a house, buy a house." And

last May, I paid for my house and bought

it outright. And

that was the last time bar one. That was

the last time I uploaded.

Really?

Yeah. It was like It's called a rival

fallacy, I think.

Yeah. Yeah.

And Tyson Fury has had it about um when

he beat Klitschko and became the

heavyweight champion of the world. The

next day he was depressed. Israel had

sat there yesterday and said the same

thing. Really? He said, "The day after I

won the UFC title, I went to my hotel

room. I was depressed." Yeah. I said it

last night on stage at the palladium. I

said, "A Olympians when they get the

gold medal, they they report depressive

symptoms."

Yeah. It was the most proud proudest

I've ever been over anything. And paid

paid it off. And then me and my partner

Fiona, we we moved in in September. And

I just I remember just I was drunk one

night and I remember just walking around

my house when Fiona was asleep and I

just

I just didn't care for the for where I

was. Like it's a beautiful house and I'm

so lucky and it's everything I'd worked

for but it was like what do I do now

then? Like what do I where like what

I'll sit on my sofa or going go in my

kitchen. Like I just know I I'm not any

happier than when I was renting or

it was it was weird. So

have you figured out why you felt that

way?

No, I know. I Nah, I don't know. I don't

know. It's it's because it's because the

journey is way more fun than

Amen.

Yeah. than than than the arrival that it

it just it just is there. The the most

fun I've ever had is probably the first

time I got a viral video or the first

time I got to present for this company

or first time I got a brand deal. Do all

the stereotypical YouTuber things. The

first time I felt like a YouTuber. They

they're the best moments. And it's I'm

not I'm not complaining. I'm not sitting

here and whining. And I'm so blessed and

so lucky. And

yeah, it is a it is a tough one. It is a

tough one. But like I did my my kind of

like sound bite that I always sort of

say is I did YouTube for seven years

without earning a penny.

And then and then once the Zoella video

kicked off and the ad revenue went up

and I earned money I would never I could

never dream of earning that that was no

more fun than when I was doing it for

for free.

And it's funny because the the I guess

the the liberating thing to know is that

everyone I've sat here with says the

same thing. So it's not a you thing,

it's a human thing. thing and so you go

okay if it's a human thing what does

that mean and why is that one of the

things because I was writing my show for

the Padium I I encountered was that the

reason why we're here is because our

ancestors struggled forward and their

desire to keep striving is the reason

they built these empires and overcame so

I say to the crowd I say is it

conceivable that they left a message

within our genetic code that says you

too shall struggle forward and they've

kind of like predisposed us to like

forward motion and also this other point

like the our ancestors are ancestors

that had a a real sense of what really

liked forward motion, struggle and

purpose were the ones that survived and

passed on their genes to us. So we've

we've inherited this real desire to have

forward motion and a sense of purpose.

And one of the things they say is

causing the life expectancy to decline

in the western world is specifically

they they they point at men and say

there's a epidemic of purposelessness as

the world is starting to change and AI

and things like this are I'm pointing at

the little robot that's moving moving

around the room on its own are taking

purpose from people and so people are

now becoming more addicted and depressed

and they're for their suicide has become

the single killer biggest killer of men

under the age of 45 which has caused the

life expectancy to decline for two years

in a row and it's because of they I

think this epidemic of purpose

listeners. So when you lose your sense

of purpose because you reach the the

point you're aiming for that can be so

disorientating and confusing as it was

for me at 25 when someone came along and

said we'll buy a social chain off you

for 50 million and I go home and I look

at the the mansion on Right Move and the

Lamborghini on Auto Trader and I feel

totally [ __ ] lost. I I completely I

completely agree. Like I I I wouldn't

change it for the world. is everything

I've I've always always wanted. But like

cuz cuz I I think I think money does

money does buy happiness. And I think if

people say otherwise, I think they're

talking [ __ ] Like in a way like Well, I

Well, maybe I should rephrase that to to

money buys freedom.

Yeah.

And freedom is is is happiness. And

that's what what I have now. I have can

do what I want when I want. The best

feeling I I I get now as a 28-year-old,

soon to be 29y old is when I sort my

family out.

And

like my granddaddy's still working. He's

20. He's 70 um 77 20. Imagine that. He

wishes

he's 70 he's 77. He's a big fat lump

from Norfolk and he still does building

and demolition and walks on RS and stuff

and he's not got a penny. And then like

I went to see his parents' grave with

him in February um last year and uh he

goes there every week, puts new flowers

on. He's been doing it for like 50

years. And it's like and I could see he

was he was wearing these beat up boots

and this disgusting tattered jacket. And

I just went home and I just got his bank

card without him knowing from his side

of his car where his handbrake is. And I

got his bank and I just transferred him

£5,000. And for me, that was like that

was just everything. That was like that

was uh everything I'd worked for was

justified in that moment. And I got more

out of that than I did when I bought my

house. And like just little things like

my sister's type 1 diabetic, so she has

like a thing in her arm that constantly

pricks her and finds her her levels. And

I can I can pay for that [ __ ] And yeah,

last night my dog died and the dog that

I'd had for 18 years. Um, and uh, lit

literally like found out just before I

went to sleep last night. And it's

little things like this that might not

seem like a lot, but it was the first

time I'd spoke to my mom in ages and she

was like, "Oh yeah, we're going to get

Diddy's ashes cost £200. There's the

£200." So, it's like that kind of [ __ ]

is like why I owe everything to this

online world and people that have given

up their time to watch me and brands

that have trusted me and stuff and yeah,

that's the best feeling.

I think you nailed it when you said

that. Um, sorry about your dog, by the I

have a dog and I really that really I

can't imagine.

It's [ __ ] Yeah,

it's really [ __ ] Even the thought of it

is just terrifying.

She was 18 years and 4 months, which is

quite old,

but when they get to that age, you just

assume that they're always going to

crack on.

Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Um, no, you I think you

nailed it when you said that freedom is

the thing that ultimately does make you

happier because I remember not having I

remember getting the bay of letters and

then not being not knowing how I was

going to eat or knowing that the the

landlord was going to come and ask me

why I had paid the rent in four months

and the pressure that of con that like

weighing on me and the freedom of just

like not looking at how much things cost

when you go into Top Man and want to buy

one of those t-shirts and

that kind of thing or you want to go

somewhere. So freedom definitely makes

you happier. But obviously at this point

I've come to realize that if you gave me

more money, the the fundamental

happiness levers of my life won't

change. Like you're right, like my

sister's been a little bit sick

recently. She she um

um and being able to help her. I said to

my team this week, I was like that's the

moment where I see the point of this

just being able to like pay the hospital

or like get a check, get a get a proper

healthcare, those kind of things. um my

parents got broken into and being able

to buy them like new locks for their

doors so that they wouldn't get broken

into again is is one of those things

where you go that's what this is for.

That's what that's that was the feeling.

Yeah. It it makes it all worthwhile,

doesn't it?

Completely.

Do you do you ever feel

again namerop but I spoke to J about

this cuz I was really I was really

something that plagues me whether it's

right or wrong is I feel guilty about

having money. I feel I feel this sense

of guilt where it's like and I don't

have cra I don't have crazy money. Like

my situation is I paid off my house. I

have a bit more in the bank. Like that's

what it is. But I because because of my

upbringing and where I'm from and I see

my dad wake up at 5:00 a.m. every

morning, go work in a factory for 12

hours and then still struggle to buy

Christmas presents. And then I'm like

you just said, I go online. I don't look

at the price of things anymore. And I

just buy it and then it's like what?

Like this doesn't make sense. I'll tell

you a quick story. Three, four years

ago, my dad's dad, my granddad, he

passed away. He he got um bone cancer or

some kind of [ __ ] cancer. They're all

[ __ ] I guess. And um he I went to his

funeral, went to the wake, had a few

jars, went back home, went on a night

out, and I was in the place called the

waterfront in Norwich, which is where I

always I always go. Uh, I go there

because I'm comfortable because everyone

knows me there now. So I don't get the

[ __ ] come over and whatever. But so

they if if Jackmates's in there, they've

already seen Jackmate hundred times, so

it doesn't matter. And this guy came and

I was I was gone and I was not in a good

place. And this guy came up to me and

said I'd never met him before. And he

asked me how much I earn from YouTube.

And I think it's such a rude question,

but I can understand the intrigue in it

because it's a world that people just

don't know. It's a new world.

I barely know it. And um he asked me and

I just told him for the first time ever.

I was like this is what I earn. I said

what about you? What do you earn? And he

told me and it was like 10 10% of what I

earn. And I said and what do you do? He

said I work in the cancer ward at the

hospital. And I was just like and I

weren't saying what do you do to be

rude. I was just

throwing that back at him. And I

remember just thinking it just hit me.

just got a lump in my throat and I

thought, why

why do I do I deserve this what I have

when there's these people that are like

they're the [ __ ] angels. They're the

ones walk walking around doing that.

Like I just Yeah, I struggled to then

wrap my head around why a brand would

pay me 30k to do a video. Like it

doesn't

it to me it's weird. So I guess you

could argue why don't you give it all to

charity? Well, no, I'm not going to do

that. But I will give it all to my

[ __ ] family and I will give it all to

my [ __ ] kids.

And that's what makes me proud.

Is there This is like a wider point

about imposter syndrome.

Is it?

I I I think so. Because um because I've

never struggled with the idea that I

didn't deserve what I'd created. And I

think so I'm asking myself why you would

really struggle with that. why you might

struggle with

the thought that you're making money and

other people are potentially having to

because I mean it's a reality of the

world even if you go back to where I was

born in Africa people in the fields for

18 hours a day picking tea leaves in the

baking sun get paid nothing and in the

western world some people can just play

around on their computer and make

billions yeah

from the from the stock market or the

markets or something but for some reason

you struggle you struggle with

this and other symptoms of impost

syndrome from what I've read in

May maybe it's

cuz I think I've spoke positively about

YouTubers and my peers and stuff but

there's still a lot of them that are

pricks like and and and and

growing up and seeing like I used to go

to YouTube events and see my YouTube

heroes and they'd come over. How many

subscribers you got? It's the first

thing I'd say. How many subscribers you

got? My name's Jack. Nice to meet you,

[ __ ] Right. So, so I guess I guess

maybe it's connecting that I'm now a

YouTuber. I'm now I I now make my money

in the same way that Alfie Days made

made his money, Ollie White makes his

money. I'm that guy. And because I've

seen a lot of YouTubers take it for

granted and just assume that that's

their right to have these things. It

that's maybe where I get my guilt from.

I never want to lose lose touch of that.

And

and you really come from a working class

like household where you've watched your

dad work really really hard and everyone

around you it sounds like work really

really hard wherever you've looked

and it's almost like you found a bit of

a cheat code or you know

Yeah.

You might feel like life has given you I

don't know

but you you earned it. I mean you bought

the whiteboard.

Yeah.

Right. This was intentional.

Yeah.

The whiteboard shows that you you know

you planned it out. M

obviously moments of luck for all of us

appear when we we start we carry on

carrying on but you realize that you've

earned it right

yeah you do you hesitated you don't do

I I I

do and but not to the level in which

I've got to now not to like yeah I get I

I guess I guess I I I have I have I have

a talent I can do I'm a personable

person I

make people laugh. But yeah, I don't I

don't know. I I don't I really don't

know how to answer it. I get I've

thought about it a lot. I've racked my

brains a lot about this.

And what does your brain do to you when

you rack your brain?

Don't know. Just may may maybe I don't.

But then like it's it's it's cool things

like this. Like Stevie White, my my

podcast co-host was working in Boots.

Nothing wrong with that. It's a

respectable job. Um just a 9 to5. He

didn't particularly enjoy it. Um, so I

call him up one day and say, "Let's do a

podcast." A year later, he's

interviewing Ricky Jves, Johnny

Knoxville, Rob Bride, and he's left his

job. He's doing it full-time. Fiona, my

partner, she was working at a

supermarket. I was telling her for

years, "Bin it off. I'll teach you how

to edit. You become my editor."

Couple of years go by, she bins it off,

she's now working for me. There's a few

examples of people in my life that can

now have an easier life

because of the foundations that I put in

seven years ago. That's

that's what I love and that's when I'm

like I I I des I deserve this and the

people around me deserve it. Does that

make sense?

Of course it does. Once again, you said

that like the most fulfilling thing for

you is helping others, right? You said

that about your family with your money

and now also professionally it's like

giving those people opportunities to

live a

better life.

Yeah. We're just a [ __ ] team. We're

just a team. They help me as well. It's

not just me going, "Look, I can help you

do this." I showed them that there's a

there's a different world out there

because people like us, we've been in

this world for so long. We see the

opportunities, but they probably didn't.

So, yeah, I wouldn't be able to do what

I do without that that that kind of the

the team in the in the background or

sometimes in the foreground with people

like Stevie. But yeah, um that's a

[ __ ] cool feeling. everybody. Um,

everybody, it sounds like it feels like

everybody that's not a YouTuber, and I

say everybody because there's going to

be people listening that are driving up

and down the country right now as

they're listening to this or, you know,

doing the dishes, whatever, and

perfectly happy with whatever they're

doing. But a lot of young people want to

be YouTubers.

And the thought that you had this like

big main channel with like, how many

subs has your main channel got now? It's

like 1.4 or something.

1.4 mill. Yeah.

Yeah. um that that you would like lose

motivation to do it is quite a difficult

concept to understand for a lot of

people. You have 1.4 million people that

have subscribed to get videos from you

and you're like can't be asked.

Yeah. It's not so much can't be asked.

It's just it's not me. It's just it's

just not me anymore. It's people I'd

open up my inbox and people would be

emailing me about some YouTuber from

France who has sold a pen for a bit too

much money and I need to be the guy that

calls them out. And it was just like I

was never I was never really this guy.

So yeah, I I guess I guess I just

transferred all that energy that I was

putting into the main channel into the

podcast. And that's where my passion is

now and doing stuff like this, getting

to sit here and chat to you and

yeah, that's I I get what you mean. Like

if you'd have asked me two years ago,

oh, am I just going to leave a channel

with 1.4 million subscribers stagnant? I

would

I'd call you all the names under the

sun. I'd be like, you're you're an

idiot. Of course I'm not going to do

that. But it seems that I have done it.

I'll use it every now and then. Like in

January, I uploaded a video about Boris

Johnson.

I saw a dope video all over the

newspapers. Really, really cool video.

Like creatively, culturally relevant. It

really like hit and it was fast. You

were very quick to act on that moment.

So, it was uh

that I guess I guess for you probably is

that how you you're seeing the use of

your YouTube main channel now? Like when

you genuinely feel you want to do

something.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. When like when the the why

is there when there's a clear and

obvious why, I'll I'll I'll do it. Um,

and not just for a quick buck. Now I'm

very thankful I don't need to do them

anymore.

It's hard to sustain something when it's

not in line with who you truly are.

It's hard to like sustain it for a long

period of time. In the short term, you

could probably do it, but it tends to be

the case when I say it with people that

at any point in their lives where they

were living outside of themselves, like

living someone else's life or kind of

like Fern Cotton said it like she had to

like go on radio and be this happy d and

um almost play a character. And Jake

Humphrey said it to me as well like

because he was a presenter having to

kind of like

put on the mask eventually it becomes a

really heavy mask to to wear and they

all eventually it seems kind of choose

to throw it away and just rebound and

that seems similar to what you're saying

100%. Yeah. I I

I told this story last night to someone.

I can't remember. I I used to turn the

camera on and I used to go I'd be sat

there and I'd turn the camera on. I'd go

right guys. Hello. It's me Jack mate.

Oh, Zoella. Oh, what a [ __ ] Oh,

she's done this, done that. Turn the

camera off. Just sit there and I

couldn't tell you anything I just said

in the last 20 minutes. I'm just looking

down at my script. She said this in her

book about how out of touch is it? And

it would just be like, "Right, that's

the ad revenue sorted for the month fee.

Let's go to Weather Spoons."

Yeah. So, it was like you can you can

only do that for so long before you just

hate yourself. There is an element of

that in me like that that that the

advent calendar video. I've done some

videos I'm really proud of. Funny videos

when when it was when it was justified,

but there's also ones it's not so much.

I've been doing recent sort of

commentary videos over the last two

years. My my recent ones are like videos

I've been doing with my friend Alfie

Indra who's a m musician. We've been

like sort of taking kind of comical

pokes at people like um Jeremy Lynch

from the F2 and people like that. And

and I

People think I'm Jeremy Lynch all the

Oh, really? You do?

You don't want to be You don't want to

be that guy. You can be Billy. Be the

other one. He seems all right. But um

but the thing with those videos, I'm

really proud of them still. And I guess

you could argue, well, you're that same

kind of like scathing um commentator.

Yeah, but they I I believe that those

people I'm going for, they're justified.

Zoella, not so much. Let her crack on.

You know

what would you say to her if she was

Have you ever met her?

Never met her.

I don't think she wants to meet me.

That'd be an awkward one, wouldn't it?

Is there like is there any because that

video did really well.

Yeah.

And I think if a video about me had

gotten 6 million views, um I think I'd

have a pretty shitty month. I was going

to say week, but I think it would last

longer cuz that video did really really

well. I remember like sometimes someone

will write like an article about me and

I try and be this tough guy. I don't

give a [ __ ] Whatever. Whatever. But I'm

still at the

hard

criticiz

mentally.

Yeah.

Do you ever has that ever like crossed

your mind like ever?

Yeah.

I'm not saying what you did was wrong

because I watched the video and I

actually thought it was really funny. So

it's like was there comedic merit in

someone that's super successful selling

a advent calendar of that nature for

that price? Yes, I understand it. Like

when you talk about the why and the Jace

like philosophy, I get it. But does has

that crossed your mind as well?

Yeah. Yeah. Um that's just another

reason why I stopped doing it. Um it's

hard to I'm not articulate enough to

describe how I feel about it, but yeah,

the the calendar video was funny. there

was a clear error on her behalf and I

just ultimately I I wasn't really saying

anything nasty about her. It was just

this product. Whereas when you do a

follow-up video and a third video,

where's the where's the line? Where do

you draw the line? Is it becoming

bullying now? Like that's not who I want

to be. I want to be a comedian. So So

that I definitely as I've gotten older

and I guess maybe I was immature for a

long time. I should have realized this

at a way earlier age than I did, but you

do start to consider others.

Um, and and I'm the same as you, mate.

I'll read a comment about me on Twitter

and I will clap back and I still go back

to them now and fees there going, "What

are you doing?" And I'm like, "Fuck

him." Like I just like that's a bit of

my dad as well, like and I'll just I'll

I'll spend hours arguing with football

Twitter.

Oh, the worst.

Yeah. Yeah.

They've all got like a football player

as their display picture.

Yeah. Yeah. you call like Fantastic Four

nails or something like that.

He doesn't know who you are.

[ __ ] hell.

Yeah, but I I I get a bit of a rush from

it really.

I I I I worry sometimes cuz I say to

myself I'm trying to reply to a troll to

try and disprove their point or because

it's fun or whatever. But I think

sometimes it's because it's like

hit me in the ego.

Yeah.

And I don't want to admit to myself that

that person's actually pissed me off.

Yeah.

So, I kind of used the guys of no, it's

funny or like no, like to to justify it

to everyone. I was like, I'm not

bothered, but you know, I mean, like

I really I really, you know, the

internet is not a good place to be if

you haven't got control over that cuz

you'll get dragged around by trolls with

egg emoji accounts like

Yeah.

Yeah. I I like I said, Fee is always

telling me not don't [ __ ] I'll be in

bed like that hung over or whatever

Sunday morning going on and Fee will be

like, "Just leave it. They're [ __ ]

idiots." And ultimately, I know they're

probably just jealous of whatever it is.

Like I'll get like a good podcast guest

on. And like the other day I I was in um

I was in Wales with Goen Price. He's the

number one dance player in the world.

And um put a picture up of me and him.

Just put uh in beautiful Wales throwing

a few arrows with Goen Price. And Goen

Price is this panto villain. I don't

know how much you know about darts, but

he's like the panto villain of

the Welsh one. Yeah. That that when he

wins always like then he bum it goes

like this. Big biceps.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and and

so he's I'd heard for a while that he's

he's always he's very lovely off camera

but or off the stage but when he's up

there he's a panto villain. I was like

that's pretty much like the jack mate of

dance in a way. So I put up this picture

of him. I was like never judge a book by

its cover. Like I know this more than I

I know this myself cuz I always did just

just this guy replied to bell ends as

well. But he follows me just follows me.

So it was like I I will reply to him and

F's like why are you bothered? Like that

must just be jealousy. like why else are

you well you follow me and you're and

you're doing that like it doesn't make

sense but I I kind of like I like to

think that I'm very very honest online

so why would I not reply why would I not

try and think of some piffy remark to

try and put him down like yeah because

I'm meant to be a professional and I'm

in this world and I'm working for West

Ham but really I also think you're a bit

of a [ __ ] mate and I'll tell you

do you think that because you are very

like um I imagine if like Boris Johnson

and like I don't know another politician

uploaded a photo you'd probably quote

retweet it and say two bellons. So like

do you think there's a chance cuz I I

don't think anyone would ever tweet me

that

like if I do you think there's a because

you've cultivated a younger male

audience that are comedic and they're

like they use kind of kind of

colloquialistic funny language like bell

ends.

Yeah. you you're also now at the mercy

of them attacking you with the same

language in that situation. I'm just

wondering why no one would ever tweet me

if I uploaded a photo go two bell ends.

I just my audience just don't speak like

that episode.

The top comment is two bell ends.

Yeah. You see what I mean? Like and then

you're having to deal with that because

I get what you mean. Yeah. But then

maybe they see a bit of cuz cuz I

Yeah. They think you maybe like that as

well. They think, "Oh, Jack, you know,

cuz he follows you and, you know, he

clearly looks up to you if he he's

following you and

stuff." It's true. It's true. It becomes

more real when you like

when like someone some there'll be

people out there that will defend me on

that thread and they'll say, "You don't

know him." And he'll go, "Well, he looks

like a prick. Look at his trousers." And

then it's like personal.

Yeah. It goes a bit goes a bit deeper

then. But like you are right because I I

would always do um an event called

Summer in the City. It was the only time

I'd ever I'd ever get out of like

Norwich and go and meet the fans and

they'd put you in a pen and there'd be

all these YouTubers in this big hall at

like XL and you'd be in a pen and then

fans would come up one by one and I' I'd

meet like 13year-old girls. You might

want to believe this. I don't know. But

they'd come up to me and go, "All right,

you cunt." And I'd be like, "What have

you just said?" And then but then

because that's what I'm doing online.

All right, you [ __ ] [ __ ] But

they're there to meet me and they want

their thing signed. So they like me, but

they think like But then but then I

wouldn't go up to like I wouldn't go up

to Declan Rice and start doing keep up

around the world. All right, Deus.

Oh my god.

So then you just I just have to be like,

"Yeah, maybe I am a influencer." [ __ ]

Scary scary notion.

No one's ever said that to me in a meet

and greet. Um that's so it's really

interesting. And do you there's an

element of your do you think there's an

element of your childhood in that in in

the sense of like being triggered a

little bit by what people are saying or

the criticisms that you know triggers

you maybe

because I I def I'm thinking about

myself. I definitely wouldn't sit in bed

replying especially now I'm on the BBC

like BBC one is a bit prestigious in it.

I can't really

be popping off too much.

Yeah.

Well yeah probably I probably shouldn't

be either. Do you do do you want to be

the type of person that doesn't?

Yeah, but I can't, Steve. I can't like I

I'll reply to them and then and then Fee

will be like, "Delete them." And then I

and then I'll be like, "No, not going

to." And then in an hour it's like it's

like a comedown. I'm like, "All right,

now I'll delete them." And then and then

in an hour later someone else has said

something. What do you mean? I'm so

mature on Twitter. It's on It's a joke.

There's a real risk there of being like

pulled around emotionally though by the

external world, right? Yeah, I've

deleted I've I've deleted Twitter off my

phone a few times. Um yeah, we went I

went out for a dinner with Max Foch and

um I told him about he was he questioned

it. He was like, "Why do you always go

back at these idiots?" I'm like, "I just

find it funny or they just get to me and

I deleted Twitter off my phone." And he

was like I said, "I'm going to do it for

the whole weekend." And he was like, "I

guarantee that you'll you'll redownload

that by the end of the meal." And I had

did and I was scrolling there looking

through it. So when football Twitter say

we're in your edge, mate. Nine times out

of 10 you are in my head. But I'll try

and get back in yours.

Do you not think it would be a happier

life just to [ __ ] like

100%. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess I get

bored.

Is it that

ego?

Yeah. Quick one. As many of you know,

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um it's a real game changer for a

product and one that I'm going to be

installing in my home soon. happy hour.

So, this was a really pivotal moment for

you. Where where did that start? Why did

you decide to start doing long long form

podcasts instead of the the other types

of videos you were making before?

I've I've always wanted to interview

people. At college 10 years ago, I I

studied interview techniques. My

granddad was the first person I

interviewed. He came in and I

interviewed him about the war and all

that kind of stuff. And I always wanted

to do it. And then in 2017, I had a

podcast with my friend Tom Norris. Um

done done all right. Uh but it was just

too too too much. Um we were doing it at

the YouTube space and we'd rock up

sometimes and they didn't have the

cameras in and that. So it fell by the

wayside. But then uh 2018 I wanted to do

another podcast. I said to Fee said,

"Who should I do it with?" Cuz I always

knew I wanted to do it with your every

man. So not a YouTuber cuz that's not

I'm not a YouTuber that's been friends

with YouTubers. I'm a YouTuber that's

friends with my mates in Norwich. I'll

do the best video ever with the big

celebrity. Come back to Norwich and I'll

just go, "Yeah, we didn't watch it,

mate. Not bothered." And I'll just be in

the pub and that will be everything I

need to keep me grounded. So I So she

she suggested Stevie White who's um just

a just a mate that lived in Bristol and

uh I called him up and said, "Do you

want to do a podcast?" And he said,

"Why?" So good point.

Good good point. And then and we ended

up giving it a go. I started doing it

with a guy called I'm Alex who's a who's

a YouTuber that was very um

a com he was a commentary YouTuber. So

he was calling out people. He would do

the cookie cutter templates of like X Y

and Zed needs to be cancelled. X Y and Z

needs to be and he was doing that all

the time. So originally my show was a

YouTube drama show to call people out to

be an extension of what I was doing on

the main channel. And then after about

five or six episodes I thought this is

just poisonous and I don't it's not me.

Why am I trying to do it in a different

format? So, we dropped that and started

getting guests on and interviewing

people and I found the love of YouTube

again, which I' which I'd lost for a few

years.

Was there like a pivotal moment in Happy

Hour where you thought, "Fuck, this is

going to be Was it It wasn't the

Spotify. It must have come sooner than

that, right?" Where you thought, "This

is we've got something here."

Yeah. Um, again, it was probably getting

Jes on.

Oh, god. I remember that day.

He he was in our first like three

guests.

Nice. And and I'm so grateful that he

gave me a chance years ago because I

would I genuinely believe I would have

none of this if it wasn't for him giving

me a shot and I built up a connection

with him years ago. So he then when I

needed someone big to come on the

podcast, he would step in and you know

what it's like you get one through the

door. Other people almost then don't

judge the show based on me. They'll

judge it based on who who else is sat in

that seat.

Yeah.

So so I owe I owe a lot to him. So that

was probably a defining moment and

testament to Stevie as well because I've

been doing this for 10 12 years. I've

been around people like J. I've been

very lucky, very fortunate. And I

remember how nervous I was the first

time I sat on the sofa with him. The

first time I filmed with him was the

most nervous I've ever been for anything

in my life. And then Stevie White has

come literally seemingly out of boots

the day before. And then he sat there

with Ricky and he's just just gets it.

He's just on and he's just the glue. And

I was like, I've chosen the right person

here like to do this this journey with.

And then the money side of things. So

eventually you you get approached by

Spotify

and they they offer you um a contract or

a deal exclusive deal to do. And I

remember watching your video announcing

that and you were very very honest.

No, like I think that's probably why

people like you so much because you're I

can trust you because you're going to

tell me the way you go. Listen, we're,

you know, the money is a [ __ ] very

important thing here and you're being

very um overt about that, which I think

is admirable because again, it builds

trust. People don't have to like what

you're saying, but they're going to

trust you. They're going to trust you to

always be honest with them. So, um, what

was your thinking around the Spotify

deal? Because, you know,

I don't know, someday Spotify might

approach me and ask me if I want to um

if I want to go Spotify exclusive and

maybe you can give me some advice on

that. Um,

the reason I did it was purely

financial. I thought it was going to be

a bad idea

and I took some my network who I'm

signed to, they wanted it to happen

because obviously they've got a slice of

the pie.

Did they Did they orchestrate the deal

or did Spotify go to them and then to

you?

Yeah. Okay. And um originally I saw it

as okay, I'm taking off the full visual

episodes on YouTube and just putting

them on an audio-based platform, whereas

a lot of my audience might be the

younger kids and people like me and you,

we probably consume a lot of just audio

when we're on the go and in the car and

that. Whereas I think younger

generations, and I'm basing this on

nothing. You probably know better than I

do, but I imagine younger kids probably

like they're more visual. They like to

watch the So I thought taking it off is

is is probably going to get a lot of

backlash.

And then Spotify told me how much it

would be per year and the potential for

how many years. And I thought, well,

that doesn't just change my life, that

changed my children's life who don't

even exist. So, I literally did it cuz I

was financially driven. Um, and I I've

got no qualms saying that or admitting

that. But what I'll also say is I now

I'm starting to see the benefits a year

in of going with Spotify. And they're