One of the things I learned earliest in

my career is if you can't hire people

that are smarter than you, you will

fail. What you gain confidence in with

brand marketing over time is that

consistency is required. Now, I am so

excited for the show today. We have

Andrew Dunham, founder and CEO of HIMS.

Hims are reinventing healthcare, but

wow, it's been a tough 6 months. They

are down 66%. They've got a market cap

of 4.35 billion as of today, but they do

over 2.3 billion in revenue. It's nuts.

I'm so excited to sit down with Andrew

today where we discuss this and so much

more.

>> When you're disrupting an industry, you

have to have a team that is used to

being uncomfortable and used to getting

through it and used to staying calm and

having that resilience. I might be the

only person that believes this, but I

think running the company in the public

markets is more fun than being private.

Ready to go.

>> Andrew, it's been like six, seven years.

Like I was I was young and fresh when

when we lost

>> I was I was a lot younger. We looked a

lot better back then, but I say we're

pretty good by now.

>> I I listen I think life's been pretty

kind to both of us. Um, can I start with

a super weird one? And you might be

like, "Dude, I thought we were buddies,

but I I speak to so many public company

CEOs today and I I can't find a happy

one."

Seriously,

>> I'm You know what? I think I think I

might be the only person that believes

this, but I think running the company in

the public markets is more fun than

being private.

Why? You get [ __ ] on every day, dude. I

see it and I'm like, "Oh, poor Andrew."

And I so remember our dinner with your

lovely wife. And I'm like, "Oh, I so

nice." And I see the [ __ ] on.

>> I love it.

>> You do?

>> I I love it for a few reasons. One, um,

if you're a highly competitive person,

you get to put out high benchmarks every

90 days and see if you can actually

deliver on it. And you can build a high

performance team to say, "Hey, we put

this out and it's a big stretch. Let's

go kick ass and figure it out. When

you're private, it's so easy to get to

get cozy. You know, the worst case

scenario if you got some VCs that call

you and they're stressed out about

something. But in the public markets,

it's like it's boot camp. It's it's like

you got to be you have to deliver. So, I

love that from a competitive standpoint.

I also love the the the

ability to hire talent like in the

public markets because they they can see

the vision and you're forced to not only

talk about where you're going to go 10

years from now, but if you're going to

actually like make steps quarter to

quarter to prove it. So, as a

competitive person, I think it's a lot

of fun. Also, when you step back, like,

you know, we we went public really

early. We went public after like uh I

think 36 months of launching, which was

a little bit crazy. Um when you look at

the biggest companies in the world they

went public within a first few years of

launching Google, Facebook, Apple,

Amazon all of them like they didn't stay

private for 10 20 years you know they

forced the founder was forced to figure

it out in the public markets how we're

going to grow how we're going to get

efficient and how we're going to tell a

big vision and and I think that's a lot

of fun.

>> I love that. Google, Apple, Facebook,

Amazon.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's

actually one of the oldest marketing

tricks ever, which is like marketing by

association. You know this? It's called

Six Flags. Do you remember Six Flags?

The really [ __ ] theme parks. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I don't know them cuz I'm British,

but like they wanted to be better than

everyone else and so they just did

massive billboards that said not as good

as Disney.

>> Smart.

>> Very smart. Very smart.

>> I know. Yeah. I like a good marketing.

Um fascinated. You said there about

going uh public so early. If you were

sitting down with like the Collisons

today,

>> Yeah.

>> would you tell them to go public?

>> I think if your business is ready from

an from an from a predictability

standpoint and you have a long-term

orientation, then I would encourage you

to go public. I think you those two

things have to be true. I think you have

to actually be able to predict your

business with consistency because you

can't enter the markets without that

confidence. Um, and you also have to be

ready to sign up for a decade or two in

the markets, right? This is not

something it's not a quick exit. It's

not a liquidity event. It's it's the

beginning. And so I would I would

encourage any founder that has those two

dynamics to consider it.

>> Do you think you can do what you want to

do from a long-term strategic objective

standpoint and have the, as you said, I

love it, the 90-day ticker of like, hey,

we've got to go hard for the 90 days.

>> I think you do. It takes it takes

discipline. I think it takes hiring the

right people. You know, I think I I

focus on hiring a certain type of

people. um you know they're not

particularly fancy in background.

They're not credentialed with like all

of the really great tech companies. Like

that's not what I look for. I look for

mostly people who have been builders and

have gone through some [ __ ] is like the

honest reality. So if you look at our

team um you know Yi our CFO he was you

know the divisional CFO of Uber during

COVID the whole business disappeared

overnight and he had to figure it out.

uh or deer our chief product officer she

was at games she was at Robin Hood

during GameStop right had to figure out

that chaos or

>> do you seek out do you seek out crisis

in their lives I know it sounds stupid

you you've mentioned two very iconic

>> yeah I seek out grit I seek out a lot of

grit um because I think when you're

disrupting an industry which we are and

and even in the last year our category

has exploded and changed and and been

fraught with all types of chaos you have

to have a team that is used to

being uncomfortable and used to getting

through it and used to staying calm and

having that that resilience. And so I

absolutely search for people that have

seen those types of ups and down and and

thrived in them because I think when

you're disrupting it's just inevitable

that that's going to happen.

>> I spoke to so many people around you

like really I thought the [ __ ] out of

you again which was nice cuz I know you

but like to to kind of hear stories from

owning doughut shops. U didn't tell me

that did you? uh my my Augustus group

was coming out there, but the the talent

element was one and they said in

particular Jules Moltz I think it was

from IVP said that you're incredible

when it comes to acquisition and

retention. What do people get most wrong

do you think about acquiring great

talent today? I think often people as

they scale, maybe founders as they

scale, um fall into the trap of trying

to hire people that um have seen bigger

scale than them and are more strategic

and they they feel like they've gotten

to the point of success where now it's

time where they uplevel the talent to

non-starty folks, right, to like real

professional people. Uh and I think that

is a huge huge mistake. Huge mistake.

Um, you know, when I look at, you know,

Chris Payne is on our board, who's one

of my mentor,

>> Chris?

>> Yeah. Chris, a great guy. I think one of

the best operators I've ever met. And

when I look at the team over at that

that Tony's built at Door Dash, you

know, that team is is an operating

machine. And they're huge, right? It's a

8000 billion dollar company. Um, yet

they're still operating with speed and

focus like a startup. And I think so

much of that is because the team that

Tony's assembled around them is a team

of operators that love to build. Uh and

and so I think as you scale there's a

pressure to go hire that big strategy

person with who who has more credentials

than you and it's kind of it feels

almost confidence inducing as a founder

to like get to that level. And I think

you have to fight that at all costs. I

I've made mistakes. I've hired people

like that because I thought it would was

the right move. and and have always come

back to find people who love the

mission, who love to build, who are

tactically excellent at what what the

function actually requires. Um, and

again, who are gritty as hell.

>> What are you not excellent at in the

role of CEO, but persist relentlessly

despite your lack of skill.

>> So many things,

so many things. I mean, I'm constantly

trying to find the balance of being in

the weeds and building a team that can

scale independently of me, right? Like

you're you're that that line of how

hands-on you should be, how

strategically involved you should be,

how tactically involved you should be

versus

>> where do you where do you come down on

that then? Because we have the founder

mode and the you know, I love Ryan at

Flexport, but like the I'm so in the

weeds and I love him for it. Yeah, I

think you have to I think you have to be

intentional about where you get into the

weeds. Um I I don't believe in this

concept of like every design review

comes through me, everything that ships

comes through me, every decision comes

through me. Like it's you one of the

things I learned earliest in my career

is if you can't hire people that are

smarter than you, you will fail. And

young managers struggle with this all

this time. all the time. They they're

scared to hire people that are better

than them because they feel like if I

hire somebody better than me, well, what

the what the [ __ ] am I even doing here?

Why am I here if I just hired somebody

who's better than me? And in fact, it's

completely the opposite. If you want to

continue to scale in our organization or

any organization that's growing, you

have to realize that your job is

changing every 12 months, right? To

level yourself up to the next next

highest leverage focus area. In order to

do that, you have to replace yourself

every 12 months with talent equal or

better always. And so, um, to me, that's

a really important realization that as

as a CEO and founder, which is I want to

hire people better than me and and so I

trust them. Yet, at the same time, if

there are specific areas of the business

that are critical, um, either strategic

decisions or tactical implementations

being worked on, you have to know when

you go deep and you need to acknowledge

to the team, hey, this is something

that's really important. I'm going to go

deep on it. I'm not going to go deep on

everything, but this is important. I'm

I'm going to be in the weeds here. Dude,

I sit in these boards nowadays and

honestly, they're mostly useless. It's

so exhausting. Um, and AI is at the top

of every big company board discussion

topic. Okay. No [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> How does your business change with AI?

How many people do you have today?

>> About 2,000 employees.

>> Okay. You have 2,000 employees. How many

do you think you'll have in 2030?

>> That's a great question. probably not

many more than two to three thousand.

>> That's a big range.

>> Yeah, we operate about a million square

feet of pharmacy fulfillment throughout

the US. And so we have a a large chunk

of labor force which is actually just

variable labor responsible for actually

pharmacy oversight, pharmacy um review

and actually shipment of medication. AI

can do a lot uh in regard to efficiency

for core product engineering,

accounting, finance, marketing, etc. But

when you're actually running facilities,

physical facilities, and a lot of this

is actually required doctor and pharmacy

oversight, you know, those you can't get

as much leverage on.

>> Are you pushing AI down into every

function of the or

>> Yes. Yes.

Are you seeing it have dramatic

implications

that we we have we have ange and we have

customer support. I think we

overexaggerate elsewhere where it has

impact.

>> I think those two areas are critical.

We're also seeing it have massive

leverage in design, right? So, we deploy

about a billion dollars in marketing

spend every year across the Hims and

Hers brands and the u you know the cost

to do a live photo shoot uh the speed of

a food photo shoot for every single

product launch you know we probably have

thousands of variations of TV

commercials uh Facebook ads Google ads

etc. The speed of iteration with AI in

that function I think is actually one of

the most tangible that I've seen across

our organization

>> in terms of cost reduction and in terms

of supply expansion.

>> It's mostly in regard to output. You

know, I would say it's you have the same

team but you're probably delivering

three to four times the amount. The

other area that we see a big degree uh

improvement is actually on the clinical

side. So we treat you know 10,000 plus

patients a day. We're probably the

largest health care system in the US. Uh

if you actually look at volume of

patients treated um and now with recent

markets, you know, definitely the the

largest globally from a digital health

standpoint. And if you can apply AI to

the the medical side, the ER, the EMR,

right, where doctors are actually making

clinical decisions and it can help you

know give guidance with regard to

certain protocols and speed up that that

process. That is a a huge amount of

leverage for the clinical end um from an

efficiency standpoint, but it's also a

meaningful improvement in quality

because you have essentially a uh you

know an intelligent brain helping

standardize care across thousands of

doctors that are making decisions every

single minute.

>> When you speak about the explosion of

the business, that explosion is driven

largely by you GLP1s and weight loss.

How much of that is the core business

today? Is it like 80% weight loss, 20%

everything else? What does that look

like?

>> No, no. I think that's one of the funny

things about our business is we are

constantly in the headlines as a single

category business. When we first

launched, when you and I first met, we

were the erectile dysfunction business,

right? And it was, you know, front page

of New York Times and it was uh fun and

silly and provocative and all we did

from everyone's perspective was ED. Uh

and then we launched hair and then all

of a sudden it was like we're a hair

loss business. Uh, and then we launched

the HERS business and everyone said,

"Oh, hers is never going to work. You're

just an ED and hair loss business." Uh,

you know, and then eventually we

launched GLP1s and everyone said, "Oh,

now you're just a weight loss business."

And, you know, a year from now people

will say, "Oh, you're just like a

peptides business probably if I were to

take a guess, right?" And and so I think

the the reality is under the hood is

that you have a dozen completely

different clinical categories,

completely different businesses, each

scaling with very solid robust growth,

which is why this business is

interesting. Like that's why I run this

business is the durability of it is

quite strong because you have 10

different businesses with completely

different customer segments. So weight

loss is actually, you know, nowhere near

the majority of this business. um um and

and I don't think ever will be um just

because you're continuing to expand core

categories and a lot of new categories.

So,

>> do you run those as separate businesses?

When I had Nick from Revolute on the

show, he he said something fascinating.

He said, "We run 26 different product

experiments at the same time. I treat it

much like a venture incubator and I give

them more or less money depending on how

well they perform." Do you run them as

like a venture incubation unit?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, when

we first met, I was um, you know, over

with with with Jack Abraham running

atomic ventures for a long time. Um, and

that training of 0ero to one

exploration. Um, that is what hims and

hers is, right? Like I think of it as a

public shell for innovation in bringing

great healthcare to consumers, which

means every year we're testing

completely new go to market strategies,

completely new categories. And the way

we think about it is internally is just

different bets. Um, and some bets you

you starve and some bets you fund and

some bets you you ring fence to allow

exploration for a year or two. Um, but

they're run uh increasingly

independently. And I think the the DNA

of management is is to look at it as a

portfolio that continues to scale

because ultimately in our business, you

know, health and wellness, what what

makes up great health and wellness is

constantly changing. There's new

diagnostics, there's new devices,

there's new drugs, uh there's new

learnings about, you know, the sauna

and, you know, cold plunges or whatever

it might be, whatever's trendy, right?

Like all of this is changing and it's

going to continue to accelerate and our

job is to curate the best and bring it

to people at scale at an affordable

cost. And so we have to think about

this, frankly, as a portfolio that's

constantly evolving.

>> I can't get my head around the sauna,

Andrew.

>> You have to do the sauna four times a

week. No, I don't

for 20 minutes. It cuts all cost. Have

>> you seen what it does to the motility of

your sperm?

>> Three kids, buddy. Some of us have got

none. Okay.

>> Got to bring an ice pack in there.

>> I'm not going to bring an ice pack for

my balls. I'm sorry. This is genuinely

this was like the most unattractive

thing ever. And it's like, you know,

Huberman's like, "Oh, it extends life by

like, you know, three decades." mate.

>> He's right doing ice pack.

>> I'll I'll we'll we we'll sauna together

next time I'm in London.

>> I'd I'll do it with you.

>> All right. There you go. Um you said

there about kind of the bets. What did

you do that with the benefit of

hindsight you wish you hadn't done? For

us as a business,

I think it's important to constantly

be in a customer's mind, the mind share

of the new evolving health and wellness

categories. And so I think in many

categories we've been um quick to market

and in many categories we've been kind

of like uh you know patient to market.

And in retrospect I constantly am kind

of evolving my perspective on like how

fast we should be there. My net net

takeaway is I don't think we actually

need to be first ever in market. Um I

want to be best in market. And so when I

think of new categories, peptides for an

example, right? You know, a lot of

conversation about 10 15 peptides going

from class 2 category 2 to category 1

compounding so that people can actually

get access to things like BBC 157,

TB500. This is an incredibly interesting

category. You won't see us be first to

market in this category. Um you'll see

us when we launch it feel extremely

confident in the clinical protocols

extremely confident in the guardrails

make sure that the supply chain and the

quality is done to a level we are you

know feel is bulletproof from a

pharmaceutical standpoint so you know

there's a lot of a lot of introspection

uh in my in my brain around speed and

prioritization of which categories to

enter but what I always come back to is

not being first but being best so that

from a brand standpoint people know him

and hers to be high quality and trusted.

Like when we actually bring something to

market, you know it's safe. You know

it's done right and you know it could be

something that's that's powerful and and

important for your for your health.

>> I always remember um Hugo Bar who was

the product guy from Xiaomi and he said

on the show when you're doing anything

in physical product you need to choose

one. You need to be feature king or you

need to be price king.

>> Yeah.

>> What are you? I think you have to be

both

for us. I think you have to have the

best at the most affordable price

eventually.

>> How come it was $1,800

to $2,000 for WGO and a Zmpe then, which

wasn't wholesale?

>> Well, what is it now?

>> Well, the self-pay price at the time was

$300 to 400.

>> Yeah, it's down to about $149 in 18

months

>> on him.

We just announced the WGOI pill 149.

So I think I think for

>> Is that post Novo deal though?

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's through partnership.

No, absolutely.

>> Totally get you. So So we want to be

price king and feature king.

>> I think for us we want to curate the

absolute best at prices the masses can

afford. And I think the way you do that

is you you work with ecosystem partners.

You leverage the scale of the platform.

Right? We're the largest global

distributor at this point probably of of

medicines. Um and so by able to then

working with you know the best

diagnostic companies, the cancer grail

detection company. I don't know if

you've ever taken this test. Um

>> this is a test that I've been taking for

5 years. I've had everyone in my family

take because there's there's cancer in

my family. It's called the gallery test

by Grail. Um, it's a blood test and it

can detect, you know, 50 to 100 cancers

and it and it focuses specifically, it's

best at from a clinical standpoint some

of the harder to find cancers, uh,

prostate, pancreatic, ovarian, and

cancer. Um, and it's a simple blood

test. Uh, you know, we, this blood test

was thousands of dollars for the last

few years. We were able to work directly

with with Grail, bring that test, I

think it's in market now in his and hers

at like 600 bucks. Um, and my hope is

over the coming years I'll continue to

come down to a few hundred bucks where

everybody could do this on an annual

basis like going to the dentist, right?

It's just check to see if there's any

early signs, any early protein

indicators of of stage one cancer

tumors. So, so there's an arc, right?

When the GLP1s first came out, it was

$2,000 list price. We pli applied

incredible pressure to the drug

companies. Um, I think the current

administration, the US did an amazing

job. Um and and thanks to the drug

companies, they actually agreed to bring

them down from the thousands of dollars

to $150 to $200 cash pay prices. I mean,

that is like completely transformative.

It's not something that's really

happened in pharmaceutical uh history

that the blockbuster drug of the century

gets cut by 80% in 18 months, right? And

and the reason for that, I think the

reason it happened in part is because

companies like us and consumers applied

massive pressure to change the

distribution model, right? In 18 months,

the distribution model has completely

changed in pharmaceuticals in the US.

Instead of going through PBMs and

insurance, they're going straight to

customers through platforms like ours at

prices everyday people can afford. And

so there's an arc to that price uh

reduction, but I think for us, we want

to have the absolute best um and also

want to be able to apply pressure to

bring that cost down as much as we can.

Do you think like a pill pack sold too

soon when you think about the erosion of

PBM's power that you mentioned there and

how challenging it was for a business

like pill pack?

>> You know, I don't I don't know too much

about pillac to be totally honest. I I I

I don't what I what I don't believe is

that the pharmacy fulfillment part of

our business independently is a

particularly valuable business. How

should I think about the preventative

health care companies that I'm pitched

every day? Whether it's your prenovos or

your necos in the UK, which is expanding

to you,

>> is that the future? Some are much

deeper, some are much shallower, some

are much more expensive. How do you

understand analyze that space? Is that

something that HIMS would do?

>> We spend a ton of time looking at that

space and and have actually we did a

partnership with Pernovo that was

announced just a couple of weeks ago. Um

I I think where there's a lot of

interesting companies right now is in

highly specialized levels of testing for

clinical areas that are that are um

meaningfully unmet. Right? So you look

at things like uh cardiovascular disease

um right still one of the number one

killers. Most dads die of a heart

attack. Um yet a statin is you know two

cents for me to manufacture. And if you

take a statin every day, um, then you

won't die of a heart attack or you're

meaningfully less likely to have a heart

attack. Yet, nobody does it. And so

there's there's, you know, biotech

companies right now working on therapies

where a single injection quarterly or a

single injection annually can absolutely

obliterate your cardiovascular risk. And

if you can do something like that, you

meaningfully, you know, curve that rate

of death and you get ahead on prevention

for cardiovascular disease. Prennovo, I

think, is is another interesting one,

right? It's it's how do we get ahead of

detection for things like cancer and and

early tumor detection. You know, my my

dad, you know, had stage 4 colon cancer

when he was 39. It then costs the health

care system, you know, hundreds and

hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not

millions of dollars to have surgery and

then treat him for many years with

chemotherapy, right? And then

afterwards, the care involved to to kind

of get him back to a steady state. The

idea of an annual exam that can scan

your body for early signs, early

proteins through blood testing or early

actually imaging signs that can detect,

you know, a millimeter size tumor is

incredibly fascinating. Now, I think a

lot of clinical people um and they're

smart, you know, believe something like

that is not yet ready for mainstream and

it might not be, right? I I kind of

choose to be opportunistic in giving

people um uh the ability to make those

trade-offs for themselves. I take

Prennovo annually. So, you know, I

recommend it to my family. Is it

perfect? Absolutely not.

>> How much is POV?

>> I think now it's maybe about a,000 or

1,500 bucks a month a year.

>> Okay, that's better than I thought.

>> Yeah. And so I think and again these are

these are machines that cost $500,000

onetime purchase to to buy. Um but then

you're charging, you know, a,000 or

$2,000 a month or a year. Um and so the

idea that this cost could come down

dramatically is very real, right? A 500k

machine capitalized over a decade, you

know, that co the cost could come down

to something like $300 a year to do this

test eventually. Um, and that's where my

brain goes when I'm thinking about the

future is what are the the Swiss cheese

layers we can give people that together

make up really great prevention working

backwards from what we know causes uh,

you know, shortening of life and and

health span. is the biggest threat to

your business not actually open AI and

if chat GPT is the kind of consumer

interface with a lot of healthcare

questions that people have today which

you know it is in most cases actually

and that's why obviously health is a big

focus for them is it not the most

natural extension ever that they extend

that into delivery supply being your

ondemand doctor

>> something that people have been talking

about a lot actually Dario was

mentioning this recently I think some of

the most defensible businesses in the

age of, you know, anthropic and open AI

are businesses that actually do

something physical. Like they they

require actual specialization and they

require infrastructure.

And uh a huge part of what we do every

single day is treat tens of thousands of

patients with thousands of doctors that

are specialized and licensed in every

state or country in the world and then

actually help make people medicine. Um

and this is a million square feet of

pharmacy fulfillment. This is, you know,

hundreds of pharmacists and robotic

machines that are actually compounding

treatments or fulfilling branded

pharmaceuticals. So when I actually

think about the most uh the most

defensive businesses, the businesses

that can thrive in the age of AI and

actually be enabled by them are ones

where the conversation of something like

Chat GBD massively expands the funnel of

people engaging in health and wellness,

but then can be driven to a platform

that actually connects them with the

specialist and connects them with the

products and actually can get that

delivered to their door. Um, and

ultimately I think we're a combination

of all of those businesses together. So

uh you know I think there's there's a

lot of opportunity with with that funnel

that opens up with things like uh

chatbt.

>> I agree with you in terms of like

physical infrastructure and real world

requirements meaning there's just

inherently more value there cuz it's

harder to do. So does that look like a

partnership then? Say I come in and I

say hey I've got a I don't know a rash

here um and I'm worried about it and

then they siphon it off to him. So how

what does that relationship look like?

Yeah, I mean I think it's similar to

what you see on Google. I don't think

it's going to be all that much

different, right? That you'll be able to

to partner directly with uh anthropic

and chatbt and and find patients that

are looking for certain services and

then have handoffs to specialized

implementations, right? It's it's going

to be um I think there's great

opportunities to partner with all of

these players.

>> We mentioned kind of transition of how

people like consume healthcare. in terms

of how people find you. I actually had

Eran from Monday on the show which was a

fascinating show and he said that with

AI overview on Google that they've lost

18% or I might be butchering maybe 15 15

to 18% of their uh adwords in terms of

acquisition.

>> How are you seeing the way that people

find him change?

you know, it hasn't had particularly

dramatic changes since um since, you

know, some of these new AI companies

have have grown. I think for us, a huge

number of people that come to us are are

firsttime patients interested in some of

these care categories. And so, they're

hearing about it through, you know,

watching Fox News. They're hearing about

it through watching uh NFL on Thursday

nights. They're hearing about it from

their friend who all of a sudden is

feeling great. and the friend is talking

about the treatments that they're on or

or the fact that they're getting care

from him and hers. So, I think more and

more for us, the brand and the the spend

is moving towards channels where you're

talking about the opportunity to feel

great. You're not relying on, you know,

maybe the the AdWords Google funnel that

that you mentioned. I do think those

businesses inevitably will have struggle

in transitioning to some of the the um

you know the chatbased interfaces but

there will be ad networks that are built

through those chatbased interfaces that

that eventually just replace them. So um

ultimately I'm not sure it will matter

but for us I think a increasing amount

of spend is actually going towards just

telling people about all of the new

things him and hers is doing. The fact

that you can feel great the fact that

it's affordable and you can come check

it out. Um, and it's it's a lot of

market creation both in the US and

globally versus latent demand that

you're capturing through through some of

these more streamlined channels.

>> If I gave you an unlimited checkbook,

what would you spend on today that

you're not currently spending on?

>> I would definitely sponsor

um Ferrari F1 because I I' I've told my

wife that if I were to have one job that

wasn't my current job, it would be a

Ferrari driver. Um, uh, but she did not

really like that that answer. Um, no,

but I think we were probably

>> Do you think that would be a net

positive for HIMS as a business? Don't

laugh.

>> The Ferrari sponsorship.

>> Yeah,

>> at this point probably not because I'm

not sure we're we're live in every

market with the penetration we would

want where that that global footprint

matters. Um, I think eventually it

would. I think eventually in the coming

years, you know, World Cup and and

global sponsorship opportunities

actually do matter because we are, you

know, this year was a a huge level of

commitment to win internationally. I

mean, we we did not dip our toe. I mean,

we we acquired three or four companies

very large.

>> Eucalyptus for like one and a half

billion in cash

>> somewhere around there.

>> So, I mean, how does that come to be,

dude?

You know what? It it comes to be because

you get to know the people really well.

I've known Tim probably four or five

years. I think he was the best operator

overseas. No question. I mean, his

understanding of the customer, his

ability to build a team that just moves

fast, experiments,

um is willing to take risks and fail. I

mean, when I first met Tim, he was live

in like six or seven markets and it was

all failing. And he was telling me how

chaotic it was and I was like, "I don't

know, man. This sounds crazy. You're in

like Indonesia, you're in Japan, you're

in all these different places. is like,

"Is it going to work?" He's like, "I'm

not sure, but we're going to try it."

And then a year later, he's like, "Okay,

it didn't work. We're we're like toning

it back. We're going to focus here."

Like his his his humility and his

willingness to experiment and test and

learn is incredible. And and because of

that, they've just moved so much faster

than everybody else. I mean, they're the

dominant player in Australia, dominant

player in the UK, dominant player in

Germany, uh you know, quickly growing in

Japan. I mean, it's just a phenomenal

business. And I think the power of what

we built in the US from a cash flow

standpoint has enabled us in the last

four or five years to buy that business

with pretty, you know, moderate

dilution, right? Because you can

actually just fund the purchase of it

off the balance sheet um over the next

couple of years, which is incredible.

And so we have committed a huge amount

of dollars in focus internationally

because I just think the opportunity for

the brand um is pretty consistent

whether there's a national system in in

the UK or or not. People are

>> they give you is they give you cold

sweats at night being as aggressive as

you have been as quickly as you have

been. You know I remember interviewing

Dax from Lightseed Dax to Silver and he

mentioned the challenge Lightseed the

POS system in a lot of restaurants and

he mentioned the challenge in acquiring

so much so quickly. I think they made

like 18 acquisitions in like 2-year

period. Are you worried of like oh [ __ ]

I now have to integrate Eucalyptus and

these three other businesses? Definitely

you you there is a very fine line of of

uh driving so fast that you're losing

control. There's no question about that.

Um what I found at least in running this

business is is if you don't feel like

you are getting close to that line,

you're probably not pushing hard enough.

And so I do think um that uncomfortable

gut feeling where you're constantly

questioning, constantly evaluating,

constantly tweaking the strategy or the

tactics, like that feeling is what uh uh

success feels like. And so I've I've

kind of taught my team that we're going

to get really comfortable with that

feeling. we're going to get really

comfortable sitting in that feeling and

questioning and and re-evaluating and

pushing um because I think that's how

you win, right? Like um I was a rower in

high school and I remember, you know, my

coach saying, you know, the the the

group of guys out there that is willing

to be the most uncomfortable and in the

most pain are going to win this race.

And and that's actually true in that

sport. And that's true in in you know,

in most sports. said, I didn't think

that's true in business is like if you

can put yourself in environments where

you're being aggressive but smart,

taking the right bets, but have a team

that is, you know, bought into the

mission and comfortable with that level

of of aggressive risk and I think I

think it's the right formula. So to me,

that's what makes this fun.

>> When with the benefit of hindsight did

you push too hard and you had to pull

back

>> in the early years? And and I think we

still I still, you know, try to moderate

this with our business. Like we could

launch we could launch so many things

within like a month. You know, you could

launch a um a skincare routine. You

could launch like a makeup brand. You

could launch sleep vitamins. You could

launch like a wearable device. You I

mean there's just like anything people

are doing in health and wellness could

live in the Hims and Hers brand, which

is pretty powerful and also extremely um

risky, right? because if you if you do

too much and you you move into the wrong

areas, you you waste a ton of resource.

So in the early years um you know I

thought just having everything on the

platform was how you win. And so we

invested in uh skinincare regimens and

we invested in vitamin supplements and

we invested in you know so many things

that in retrospect were were fairly

commodity products. um and and for

pretty much the same price or even less,

you could walk across the street to

Walgreens and get something that was

pretty much the same thing. And I think

that that was a massive mistake. You

know, I think it was it was a belief

that just assortment won. And I think

there's a more nuance perspective that

the right assortment wins. And and so um

we're we're really careful about

categories we enter, products we launch

to make sure that they're products and

offerings that that are actually

differentiated for people that are hard

for other people to receive and get get

access to. And maybe that means it's

pharmaceutical grade, it's manufactured

in in a way that is is you know very

very challenging to get quality um or

there's a level of personalization that

is required in this care of treatment

that makes it unique to you. But when I

think about some of the early DTOC

brands um that launched, you know, they

were selling commodity products and

those products capped out at you know a

billion in revenue or you know a couple

hundred million in Facebook spend and

the curves were like this and that's my

nightmare you know and and so um in the

early years made a lot of those mistakes

and and you know try to try to make sure

we we don't do that again. I I do want

to go back to the brand marketing

element just because I I suppose you

mentioned obviously brand being a core

component of like the defensibility.

Yeah. When I when I interviewed Nick at

Revolute, he said brand marketing was

the single biggest thing he's changed

his mind on in the journey of Revolute,

which I thought was an interesting

statement.

>> What do you know now about brand

marketing and spend on things that seem

fasile? What do you know now that you

wish you'd known?

You know, I think what you what you gain

confidence in with brand marketing over

time is that consistency

um

consistency is required. So I think in

the early years with brand marketing as

companies are growing, they throw some

dollars, you know, let's do an out of

home campaign in New York because it's

like really cool. It's like take over

subways, right? Which we did a ton of.

and they do it once and every this team

is so [ __ ] excited because it's so

cool and you can see it and you take

pictures of it. Um but you do it once um

and then like months go by and and it

gets taken off and then and then that's

it, right? Um because you did it and it

was fun and cool and you look at the

numbers and like ah maybe there's like a

little spike in New York City maybe on

this day like you can't really tell

probably not but you you hopeful. Um and

then the next year like okay what are we

going to do this year right? Like that's

just like it's a guaranteed way to just

lose money. It's a great way to feel

good and it's super fun. It's like so

much fun and we've done a ton of it and

it's really fun. But like that's not a

business strategy. I think in order to

have brand marketing work, I think it

has to be consistent. It has to be

consistently random if that makes sense.

Like you have to be appearing in

different places for people in a

randomized way but with consistency

because it's the multiple hits. like you

have to be hit 10 different times in 10

different ways for all of a sudden that

to say hey there's like a cultural

zeitgeist association with hymns right

now that I need to pay attention to like

what are they doing that is that is

showing up in so many ways in my life

where your brand trust elevates your

cultural relevancy elevates so it isn't

a one-off thing and I think in the early

years you know you hope it is um and you

try to track it but it does require a

level of of dollars it requires metal

level of consistency. And actually, you

know, Kathy, our chief comms officer,

told me this when I when we were

interviewing, which I completely

believe. She's like, "The the thing

early companies struggle with when it

comes to communications and their brand

is they get they get bored of saying the

same thing and then they move on to the

next thing, right? Like early companies,

we're excited, we're young, we're

changing. So like here's our vision and

here's what we stand for." And then 3

months later, like it's changed up a

little bit. I want to say something

different because I already said that

thing in that last podcast. Let me say

something new in this new one. And in

fact, what makes great brands great is

the fact that everybody knows why they

exist, why they fight, who their

customer is, what the value is they

deliver. And it's because they say the

same damn thing in 20 different ways

every single week. And so I think that's

one of the key parts about brand

marketing or or comms in general. um is

consistency is uh uh making sure that

that message and that narrative is not

changing out of which requires an

immense amount of discipline. Um and in

many ways it's like a lot less fun. It's

much more of an engine. Um but but over

many many years I do think it it builds.

>> I agree with you. I also think like

everyone when you're bored of saying it,

you've got to remember that there's a

new team member that's never ever heard

it before. That's right. And so you need

to deliver it with the same passion and

gusto that you did. I also think not

enough for opinionated enough. If you

look at the Hims and Hers brand today,

>> where would you say you are not

opinionated enough?

>> I think Hims and Hers will increasingly

have a stronger perspective of what

great health care looks like.

And I think as we grow, you know, we are

building an understanding of patients at

a scale that I don't think most have,

right? When you think about the fact

that we're treating 10 20,000 patients a

day, like the largest health systems in

the world are not treating 10 to 15,000

patients per day. So there there's an

immense amount of knowledge that's being

built around um different types of

patients, their demographics, their risk

factors, their biomarkers, what

medicines and treatments work, why, what

side effects they have, how much they

feel better. Um combination therapies

that are beneficial, like there's just

an immense amount of knowledge base

growing where I think we're going to be

able to start having stronger

perspectives of what excellence looks

like in healthcare. What do we believe

the gold standard in preventative care

is? Like if you Harry want to be the

absolute healthiest 29-year-old, right,

and be ahead of the curve, right? What

are the 10 things you should be doing?

What are the tests you should be doing

specifically for you? What are the the

treatments, whether they're holistic

supplements or maybe sauna, right, that

you should be doing? Um, and what's that

exact regimen and get ahead of it? And

there you go. Just you're going to be a

you're going to be gold standard, right?

But more and more like

>> you're so far off gold standard, dude.

>> You're doing great. You're doing great.

And I think that that's the point of

like to me that's such a key part of the

Hims and Hers brand is like everybody

feels that way. Everyone feels so far

away from optimal. And it's really

[ __ ] hard to take the first step to

have that confidence to to like make a

change. And so most people that come to

him and hers are first-time customers

because I think we as a brand try really

hard to empower you and say, "Hey, that

first step is going to be easy. We're

going to make it easy." It's kind of

like that old Marine or Navy Seal story

of like you make your bed in the

morning, right? Because when you make

your bed in the morning, you've

completed something like a very tactical

action. You've had success. There's like

positive adrenaline. And then from

there, you're going to do other great

things throughout the day like him and

hers. I want to make it so easy for

everyone to take that first step in

feeling great that that it empowers a

lot of people to do so. And from your p

from your your question, we're going to

have a stronger opinion about what great

actually looks like.

>> So for anyone wondering, that is General

McCraven's commencement speech. One of

the greatest speeches I think recorded

on the internet. I've listened to it

probably a thousand times. It used to be

the start of every single run because

it's 16 minutes, which is always the

most painful of any run, the first 16.

So amazing. aligned. I've got an out

there idea for you. You said there you

want to make it easier. Why do you not

have him preventative assessments in

every city and say, "Hey, we'll tell you

what's wrong with you." Like a prenovo

does or like any other prevent and you

can choose to buy with us or not. But by

doing that, you're building up the

world's largest set of healthcare data

for free. And you give it for free and

the treatment's what they pay for. It's

like you're a loss leader. Also, what a

goodwill engine. I would go to the

dinner party, even if I didn't talk

about even if I didn't buy products.

I'll go to all my friends and be like,

"You'll never guess. I found this out

about myself when I went to HIMS."

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, what's him?

>> I think we are we are um very close to

that being a reality. Um in the last

>> Are you a do you have the elasticity and

budget to do that? I don't mean that

really.

>> It requires two tangible things. So last

year we acquired uh your bio health

which is one of the the few athome blood

collection devices. I have it right here

on my desk. Um and this device costs

just a couple bucks to manufacture and

you can click it on your arm and it's

got 30 micro needles in inside of it.

Each of the micro needles smaller than

an eyelash. So if you feel nothing, you

click a button, you feel nothing and

then a small tube of blood gets

extracted from your arm in about a

minute or two. You can then peel that

off and you can mail it to New Jersey

which is where we have a lab processing

facility and we'll have a couple others

in the next year and two um and run a

full panel you know 50 biomarkers and it

will cost us like almost nothing. Now

today if you go to to Quest or Lab Corp

and try to get that panel uh cash pay

maybe cost you a,000 bucks or 2,000

bucks. if you you know uh go online and

go to different competitors maybe it

costs like 300 or 500 bucks for that

panel. Um uh and and my my goal my

vision is like very quickly I want to

give that away as a part of the HMS and

hers membership for free. Um because if

you can get a sense of those metrics and

and I'm not talking about just like

baseline metrics like you know your

cholesterol and things I'm actually

talking about things that are even more

sophisticated like genetic

predisposition risks which you know very

few people get access to um or or cancer

risks or polygenic risk stores. if you

have a really accelerated risk of colon

cancer, there's things you should be

doing that are different. Um, so to me,

that is the vision, a preventative front

door that is near cost or free. And that

requires us to spend hundreds of

millions of dollars, which we're doing

right now to totally verticalize this

stuff and actually own the devices, the

lab processing, and that fulfillment.

Um, but then a platform that says,

"Here's everything we know. Here's what

we can help you with, right?" and and

give guidance and again make that next

step really really easy.

>> I thought it was really interesting.

Goal Rajaram who's amazing. I don't know

if you know this but he basically said

his biggest lesson from Square where he

was for many years was that when you're

running a multi-product company not

every product line has to be profitable.

>> That's so right. Yeah. And I I think for

us um I I think that entry point and

that data collection it serves two

purposes. one, most people just don't

even have access to this stuff. So, they

don't even know if they're like doing

well. You know, I'll give you an

example. One of my best friends, um, you

know, he's mid30s. He's trying to live

healthy. He was telling me the other day

how he's running a lot and he he looked

at his cholesterol numbers and they were

they were like kind of out of whack. So,

he's like now starting to eat more

salmon and going for a run. I'm like,

"Oh, that's great. Awesome." And then I

told him, "Hey, have you done testing

for this specific genetic risk factor

for heart disease? It's it's called

lipoprotein little a." Uh he's like,

"No, I've never done that test." So he

ran he and did that test and he came

back and he's like, "My number is like

450." I was like, "Well, that's a

problem because that number should be

like under 70." And if it's 450, it

means there's a pretty good chance

you're going to have a heart attack at

like 50 or 60. And he looked at me. I'm

like, "Do you have has anyone ever had a

heart attack in your family?" He's like,

"Well, my my dad died when he was 60 and

my dad and my grandfather died at 55.

Both of heart attacks." Like to me that

moment was why all of this matters

because he went to his doctor. He went

to a cardiologist because he was trying

to do well. They gave him a set of panel

and blood tests and his numbers were a

little bit off. So he started to go for

runs. Great first step. What they didn't

test was a genetic predisposition marker

that we now know is so much more

important. And if you have that high

genetic predisposition number, your

cholesterol numbers need to be like

amazing, not good. They have to be

incredible or you're going to have a

heart attack. there are so many

therapies he should be starting now

because he now has access to that

number. That's the kind of stuff I want

to give away for free. Like that that

level of information helps people

actually like get preventative, not

reactive and and put it on a care

spectrum where if somebody wants to be

aggressive, they can. If somebody wants

to be conservative, they can. But I want

to give people information and then I

want to give them choice and assortment

and a doctor to help navigate that um

for a cost that that that isn't

overwhelming. I'm sorry to be and this

may be a total tangent but is it not

like totally [ __ ] that doctors get

incentivized by drug companies on

>> yeah the whole thing is totally [ __ ]

right if you look at the existing system

in the US almost nothing has to do with

patient outcomes or patient happiness

right so many people make money

everybody makes money but none of them

make money in any way that's actually

reflective of success of the customer or

patient um and I think that's where our

model is most powerful Like we only make

money at Hims and Hers if you are

happier and healthier. Period. Because

you pay us. You pay us to be healthier.

If you don't feel healthier, if you

don't feel happier, you stop paying us.

And so our incentive is only aligned

with with you. And we then fight behind

the scenes, the drug companies. We fight

the diagnostic companies. We fight

everybody. And we work with them, but we

apply pressure to them to get the best

stuff at the best price to bring it to

you. But ultimately, we only succeed if

you succeed. In a way though, we're like

we we don't your your your business is

like my business,

which is like we don't want you to be

too successful where you don't need us.

A world where businesses don't need

venture capital is a problem for me.

That's not a good thing. A world where

humans don't need any medication,

Andrew, I hate to say it, is not a good

business for you.

>> Well, for us, it's not necessarily about

medication, right?

You will always need somebody to help

quarterback your wealth and your health,

right? Like as you grow, as you age,

you're always going to want to have

somebody who's an expert partner that's

available to you 24/7 that you trust

that can help you navigate how you feel

in life. And and this changes, right?

Like at different milestones, like you

might not be there yet, but in the 10

years from now though, things will be

popping up all the time. and and that

that trusted partner becomes so

valuable. Um, and it could be super

cute, it could be something small, but

but I don't think that changes. And so

that relationship that can last decades

with him and hers is what matters,

right? Like me just getting you a

specific treatment today and making the

most money I can from you today, that

actually isn't what matters to me long

term, right? I'm 37. I've got like a

multi-deade perspective on how big this

business can be. in order for it to

reach that that maximum value, you have

to build a brand that people trust to

have with you for a very long time. And

that means often saying, "Hey, right now

this treatment might not be for you, you

know, um but we're here for you when

something else pops up and here's more

information and here's more diagnostics

and here's maybe a wearable device and

here's some other habits and food and

nutritional support um to help you along

the way."

>> What is your least profitable product

that is most important? Do you remember

we said about multi-product companies

don't have to

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Right now it's the lab testing

offering. We offer it essentially uh at

cost. We haven't verticalized any of

this infrastructure. So it costs us you

know you know pretty much just as much

money as we we sell it for. Um and again

it's because I believe the loss leader

value to the patient is incredibly

important. And that margin will continue

to be terrible because what we're going

to do is continue to reduce the cost as

we verticalize it. and then actually

reduce the cost to the consumer. Um so

that that will always be I think um a

platform benefit from my standpoint

where we try to make nothing on um but

give patients information and access and

and that ultimately can be really

transformative for them.

>> What do you think not enough people know

about hymns that they should know?

>> I think a lot of people um are still

trying to understand why we are fighting

so hard, right? People see us in the

headlines all the time, right? Um,

recently seeing us in the headlines for

for GLP1s and, you know, with drug

company conversations. Um, and so

>> why do we see like negative connotations

with you and not Row? It seems like the

world likes to dunk on you more than

Row.

>> Yeah. I I think when it comes to hymns

as a disruptor,

we are actually disrupting. I think we

are pushing buttons that structurally

change how people get access to care in

this country. If you look in the last 18

months, like we were talking about, um

the most important medicines of the

century got cut by 80%. Not only did

they get cut in cost, but now they're

available through consumer channels at

prices everyone can afford. Um I think

we played a part of that intentionally,

right? We applied massive pressure,

regulatory pressure, consumer pressure.

We leveraged, you know, hundreds of

thousands of patients to to raise their

voices to say, "Hey, these medicines

could save our lives. Like, let's

actually get them to us in ways we can

afford." And coverage is now expanding

dramatically and the prices are tanking.

And so, I think our willingness to be at

the at the forefront of disruption and

push on behalf of consumers, I think

causes friction, right? Um, and I think

we're comfortable with that friction. I

think people understand why we're doing

it is is super important because, you

know, we like to push where it's

important to customers and I think

ultimately that is going to benefit how

the ecosystem works

>> and row isn't innovating in that way.

Hence, they don't get the criticism. I

don't I don't know if I you know I won't

talk specifically about any other brand

because I'm not sure their strategy but

but I would say um you know in order to

actually disrupt the system you have to

break part of the system and and I think

our strategy is is is doing that. Uh

>> what system would you what part of the

system would you most like to break that

you haven't broken yet?

>> I think we are in the middle right now

of breaking how uh healthcare is

distributed entirely. So instead of

going through the PBMs and then through

insurance and then through

reimbursements, all of that complexity

that nobody understands in the US, I

don't think any of it makes sense. I

think all of it or as much of it as

possible will go through consumer

channels like him and hers where you can

pick up your phone, have on demand

access, have total price transparency,

have complete choice of which doctor,

which specialists, which treatment,

complete information access, and then

and then control. The system in the US

is entirely paternalistic, right? you

get treated with whatever they they they

want to to give you and and the

incentives and reimbursements and costs

are so convoluted that it's it's wildly

overwhelming. And so when I think of

every other industry we love food

delivery, you know, financial services,

banking, uh retail, everything is

simple. It's on demand from your mobile

device. Price transparency, customer

choice. Yet the one thing that is the

most important part of our life doesn't

have any of those elements and it's the

biggest industry in the US. It's where

we spend the most money too. And so I

think that's entirely going to change.

And so I don't think HIMS is a DTOC

company. I think HIMS is disrupting how

healthcare is delivered in in a consumer

focused fashion. And and I think we're

in the midst of that change. I think

people are are are just coming around to

it and you're starting to see it with

with the GLP1s as a prime example. But I

think in the next 5 years it's going to

accelerate dramatically.

>> The lock in and power of Epic is just

mind-boggling.

Does that progress or prevent innovation

in the healthcare industry?

>> I don't think it's relevant. Actually,

when you look at the patients coming to

Hims and Nurses today, the patients

starting their healthcare journey, the

majority of them do not have legacy data

and systems within old EMR platforms,

right? They they moved to a new city,

they moved to New York, and they're 22

and they're like, I don't have a doctor

yet. I'm feeling a little sad. What do I

do? Right? And they're their first time

entry into the health care system is him

and hers. And so the the wave of of

health care for the future, for the next

20 years, for the 50 years after that, I

is going to be a po patient population

that's starting today. Um, and that's

why I think uh, you know, you have to

you have to build a relationship early.

You have to have an assortment of care

that starts young for people so that you

can give them uh, an example of what

great looks like and then build with

them over many, many years.

>> Final one and then I promise we'll do a

quick fine. I know I've jumped around

the whole thing, but that's why I love

what I do these days. Um, like I think

your food industry is at the root of all

your healthcare problems. What you guys

do to your food is not [ __ ] natural.

Like apples are not meant to be that

large. You know, salmon is not meant to

be that cut. Do you agree that food is

at the root of a lot of your healthcare

problems? And

>> 100%. 100%. I think the team

>> and how do how genuinely, dude, how do

you eat healthfully and sustainably in

New York today when it's all completely

artificial?

>> Yeah, it's really challenging. I I I I

think the current administration is

doing an amazing job on that issue. I

really do. Right. Like the the push to

eat real food, the push to normalize the

fact that all of the ingredients on

these labels is garbage. It's chemicals.

uh the the push to educate people to

actually see what is good for you and

look at those labels and and require

food companies to disclose it and to

force changes on high processed foods or

or uh corn syrup use. Like it's poison.

Uh you know, my wife is my wife is

French and so when when we're visiting

her family overseas, I look at the

labels. It's crazy. I mean, you know,

when you look at a French fried bag of

in a French grocery store, it's potatoes

and it's olive oil and that's it. you

know, you you go to Safeway here in the

US and you look at it and it's 40

different things. So, I think there's a

huge problem with the food industry. I

think the the government applying

pressure and regulation there is a

wonderful idea for people because

undoubtedly that's a massive part of of

the obesity epidemic in the country and

also probably the mental health epidemic

and and many many other things.

>> Yeah, I'm totally with you. I feel and

actually on this one I feel really sorry

for I don't know how it says about being

classist, wealthist, whatever, but I

feel really sorry if you don't have

money because I think it's really hard

then.

>> Oh yeah, it's so difficult. I mean I'

we've got three little boys and I you

know we try to you know feed them well

and and so we'll buy like a carton of

organic blueberries, right? And that

carton is expensive. Organic blueberries

in San Francisco it might be like seven

bucks. Um, and I'll I'll open it and

I'll put it in front of the boys for

breakfast and they'll grab handfuls and

and it'll be done in 15 seconds. The

idea that, you know, healthy food costs

this much and is consumed that easily is

a real challenge uh right now. And so,

anything people can be doing to eat

locally, to have local farms, to to make

sustainability in their communities

easier and better, I think is is is all

positive.

>> Dude, I want to do a quick firearm with

you. Okay. So I'm going to say a short

statement. You give me your immediate

thoughts. Does that sound okay?

>> Sounds good.

>> What decision have you made in the last

two years that you would reverse today?

>> I think I was too slow to force the

company to invest in completely

uh disrupting their team processes with

AI.

>> Which process was disrupted most? I

think customer care, provider quality,

all patient interactions.

I think we we were a year or two uh too

slow on on totally changing the model of

how patients interact with the platform.

>> CAC goes up or retention goes down.

Which scares you more?

>> Retention going down. There are always

ways to optimize efficiency on

acquisition. There are always new

channels, new brand campaigns, new new

growth avenues. But if you don't have a

sticky customer and for some reason

they're becoming less sticky, your

product market fit, your patient

happiness, your customer happiness is

going in the wrong direction.

>> CAC only ever goes one way. Agree or

disagree?

>> Disagree.

>> Why?

>> At scale, I think uh with scale, with

assortment, with brand value, uh new

channels become unlocked, new efficiency

grows.

uh leverage accelerates with assortment.

Um

I think uh it often only goes one way

but I don't think always.

>> Other than Ferrari,

what do you not sponsor that you would

most like to

>> World Cup?

>> Like the event itself

>> or like like the FIFA World Cup brought

to you by him. Mhm. Yep.

Well, you got the US one coming, dude.

It's not too late to spend some dollars.

>> Great,

>> dude. I I love that. Um, what advice

would you give to yourself starting

hymns again? You mentioned Jack and

Atomic and starting it as part of

Atomic. What do you tell yourself going

back to the very start? I would tell

myself to trust my instincts as we

continue to build and get bigger and

bigger. Continue to trust my instincts

and also remember that it's going to be

a long journey and the ups and downs are

going to come and go. Um, but that the

persistence is going to be most

important.

>> Now, I think, you know, we do meaningful

jobs and you do a hugely meaningful job,

but I think the most meaningful job that

you probably do, which you'll agree

with, is being a father. Um,

>> what's your final one? What's your

biggest advice

on being a great father now having three

boys?

>> You know, there's a there's a um

something I watched once where they

asked a whole bunch of little kids um

what their absolute perfect afternoon

was. And these are like two, three,

four, 5 year olds. And the perfect

afternoon was all these kids answered

the same way, just playing with their

mom and dad. Just like sitting with

blocks and playing with their mom and

dad or drawing with their mom and dad or

or something with their mom and dad. And

I don't think, you know, when you're

exhausted and you're a parent and you're

trying to do everything and pulled so

many different ways, you realize that

actually all the kids want to do is just

have you present and and and truly

present. And so my greatest advice I

think would be to to try really really

hard to just play with them. Like

actually play like get down on your on

your knees on your butt in whatever

they're doing. Uh and just ask what

they're doing and ask if you can do it

with them. Um because they'll like they

light up. Uh because in parenting like

it's it's hard to actually h make time

for that. But I found that that that's

that's really the most important and

valuable stuff.

>> Dude, I I so appreciate you. I so

appreciate the friendship. I so

appreciate you putting up with my

incredibly wayward com. I mean, real

breath to the conversation. You got to

give me credit. Um, but you've been

fantastic.

>> Appreciate you having me, buddy. Good to

see you again.