imposter syndrome how does one move past

it ah sit back

zadi she is an expert in Breaking Bad

Habits and beating addiction Women's

Health Magazine has called her Britain's

answer to Bruno Brown and she's also an

author including the number one

bestseller the kindness method I am

determined to have binge eating and

powerlessness and lack of trust that

people have as a direct result of weight

loss diets to die with my generation why

I started dieting from a really really

young age and I was using food as a drug

when I got to my heaviest I was like

that's it I'm done how have you 126

kilos and it eventually culminated in

secretly getting a gastric band fitted I

started working in addiction treatment

and I started realizing that I was going

about this the wrong way I wasn't meant

to be making my body smaller I was meant

to understand why I didn't like myself

enough to take the same advice I'd give

someone else when someone you love is

struggling to get back on track you

don't pretend that what they're trying

to do is simple and you don't tell them

to throw in the towel and that's where

people feel super disempowered because

they're not taking the advice they'd

give another person

I think people feel patronized because

what they needed was understanding why

if I have all this information and I

want to do this I'm not doing it and

what I always tell them is

if you were to try and identify why some

people are unsuccessful in their change

what are like the overarching themes one

of them is

[Music]

sure can you um

tell me what your sort of academic

professional buyer might say

yeah I did a

undergrad in psychosocial Sciences in

Norwich and then a postgrad in

psychology

and then I went on to work for the NHS I

didn't one year placement as an

assistant psychologist in substance

misuse in Northwest London

and then during that time I was trained

in all sorts of different

evidence-based approaches that are used

to help people to change really

ingrained behaviors around mainly around

opiate and alcohol addiction

now what about your um your personal

context so take me below the age of you

know I'm a big believer on this show

that that origin story and our

childhoods really shape who we become

um tell me about that

well um I was born here I was born in

North London and my parents

um are from Iran and they came after the

revolution or during the revolution

and my first language is Farsi so I

learned how to speak English

and then I moved uh to the states my

dad's work for a little bit and ended up

coming back and during that time

I started to struggle I started to

struggle with um

trauma responses to things and I started

stammering to the extent that I found it

really hard to speak at all at school

and then we came back to the UK and

I started going to school here and I

didn't have a great time I was uh really

overweight kids weren't super nice to me

about it and I started dieting from a

really really young age because of

course it was like

that's what doctors are recommending at

the time and I started to have a really

mean relationship with myself

everything from the way I spoke to

myself to what I thought I deserved to

how unboundary I was like behaviors of

like low

really really low self-esteem to the

extent where I had

a lot of really shameful behaviors a lot

of codependency a lot of anxiety

controlling stuff I just didn't have the

best time at school to be honest

and I didn't like myself at all like

really didn't and now that I work with

people who don't like themselves I could

say with confidence that sadly I was on

the more extreme end of things and

I developed what I now realized was a

binge eating disorder

and where I was eating myself I was

using food as a drug essentially I

didn't know that at the time

and I was eating and eating loads and

then it eventually culminated in me kind

of secretly getting a gastric band

fitted

which gave me all sorts of other issues

lying to people lying to my friends

about it feeling ashamed like it was a

easy way out and then I had to have it

removed

by emergency surgery and it was

terrifying

and when I think now about the lengths

that I went to

and weirdly the fact that I never

thought to change my relationship with

food I always just thought if I was

smaller

the world was telling me if you're

smaller everything everything will sort

itself out

um

so that was the angle I was going in for

plus I I seem to think that getting

smaller would teach me how to change

behaviors which kind of does a

disservice to the whole science of

Behavioral change anyway

and

then I went to work in addiction

treatment uh long story short when I you

know I did my went to UNI made the same

friends I have now

and

I started uh I started working in

addiction treatment and I started

realizing that I was going about this

the wrong way

I was going about this completely the

wrong way I wasn't meant to be making my

body smaller I was meant to understand

why

I didn't like myself enough to take the

same advice I'd give someone else

I didn't like myself enough to think I

was worthy of liking food

I didn't trust what I didn't trust

myself I felt powerless like these were

the fundamental things I should have

been dealing with

so I went to therapy and

I started getting on board with the fact

that I didn't need fixing and then my

habits started changing really really

quickly and I was like wow

you said a second ago you had to figure

out why you didn't like yourself

why didn't you like yourself did you

ever figure that out yeah yeah

well using the tools that I hand over to

people now you know it isn't it isn't a

plug that was the whole thing the reason

I personally

uh didn't learn to like myself

and this will be different for each

person but I my value was wrapped up in

how I looked big time and my size

so if the scales weren't making me happy

then I wasn't having a good day

and as a result I wasn't treating myself

well in ways that may seem unrelated to

other people

but I got into my head that unless you

look like this

you don't deserve

it's almost silly for you to do the

things

that people who like themselves do

acts of self-care

even taking pride in my appearance

all kindness was conditional

on me looking a certain way

why like where had that come from well

all sorts we can start with the fact

that I was you know if your kid in the

90s if your kids being bullied for being

fat then you go to the GP they were

going to put you on a diet they were

going to put the kid on a diet so we're

the best of intentions that was

happening second of all I think the

generation particularly of women before

me

weight loss that I think weight loss

dieting has got a lot to answer for

um in that sense the you know the this

is your goal weight and this is how

you'll look and then reward yourself for

the new wardrobe because then you'll

deserve it women who carry water bottles

are slim and like all that [ __ ]

so it was a time

you know that's what was going on it

isn't just that it was my own stuff and

I should have done more to not that

you're saying that but I think sometimes

people will say like what was it deeper

than that and I just think women

especially at that time like that's all

you got that's all you were shown anyway

successful women women who made money

women who got you know who were in

relationships with people of value or

whatever else it was they were shown to

you as a particular type of woman and I

never looked like that

um

so I just never saw that I just never

thought people like me

did stuff like that

and then the worst bit was some of it

would have been really useful to me

frankly you know like I'm not going to

exercise until I'm thin I'm not going to

drink water I'm not going to take care

of myself I'm not going to engage in the

habits that would actually make it

easier for me so I speak to people now

who are the same who are like

they've sort of learned to put

kindness towards themselves they made it

conditional on achieving a goal

they're making it harder to get there

because the goal will be achieved more

quickly if you take your life off hold

and I learned this I write I I write

about this in the first book

I went to counseling

and I was really really low

this was maybe in 20

you know 10 or something like that

really low

and my North Star my whole life had been

like one day you'll be Slimmer and

you'll be someone who does exercise and

you'll be someone who you know stands up

straight and does their hair and all

that stuff

and then you can do all the stuff

you can start enjoying the stuff because

at this point I was so wrapped up and

not like myself that I wasn't even

listening to like a piece of music that

I liked because I'd be like no no hold

on wait my day is coming

or even if I caught myself having a nice

time like on holiday or something I'd

look down and think oh I'd catch a

glimpse of myself and think well no

actually you'd be having a much better

time if you'd actually

sorted this out

and

what I didn't realize is that none of

those things had anything to do with how

I looked

I just picked up this idea along the way

that I didn't deserve those things

because I didn't see people who look

like me

taking care of being allowed to take

care of themselves and being allowed to

feel sexy and being allowed to feel all

the stuff I just didn't see it

and so then I had a session with my

therapist and she said something that

she was like what if you never change

and I was

so angry I can't begin to tell you and

I'm not a particularly angry person but

I was

really angry with her

because I thought well if I don't change

then I never start living I never stop

being nice to myself

that's what that day never comes so I

came out I started thinking about it

sort of entertained it long story short

spent a couple of weeks acting like if I

don't change I'm never going to change

I just started doing the stuff that I

was putting on hold

and then everything changed

what changed

well what I needed to address was things

like boundaries

things like

uh binge eating having no impulse

control putting a space between Trigger

and response this is what was holding me

back from the results I wanted both

mentally and physically right

so what needed to change is that I

needed to do the sorts of things and

engage in the sorts of habits that

enabled me to put that friction in place

to put a space between

trigger and response and it turns out if

you start from a place of feeling like

[ __ ] and depriving yourself of all the

stuff that makes you feel calm and

positive it's considerably harder to

impose that space and to calmly decide

which version of yourself you want to

behave from

so as such I was depriving myself of an

of a real asset that could have helped

me to do things in a row until they get

easier which ultimately is what I see

all behavioral changes you know I can

see great books on behavioral change in

the background there

um we're all trying to make people do

things in a row until they're easier my

way about it is just saying that if

you're nicer to yourself and you have

the same conversation with yourself in

that space and you do the things that

make that space calm and positive and

feel mature

in the way of self-care and

self-soothing and self-compassion and

affirmation

then you can take it Choice by choice in

the direction of it becoming easier

until you really do update the fact this

this idea this assumption that you can't

do it

and this leads on to the kindness method

which was the first first book you wrote

um very much inspired by your own

experience with weight loss and

struggles there

you work with people that want to change

you know

many of them I'm sure are successful in

that change some of them are

unsuccessful in that change

if you were to try and identify why some

people are

unsuccessful in their change what are

like the overarching themes

ah

sit back so I've got one of them is

focusing on the outcome thinking that

your long-term desired outcome

is going to be

compelling enough on the spot

to get you where you want to be

so you start from a place of desperation

this is it this has got to change I want

this I want the health I want the

outcome I want the progression

and then you forget that that isn't that

isn't going to be enough your motivation

will waver your plans will not go to

plan

and you're going to need to have a

conversation with yourself when your

plans don't go to plan that talks you

into take making a decision you'll be

proud you made the next day so I think

one people wildly underestimate how much

it's about zooming in and getting

involved in and excited about

demonstrating Your Capacity in a row

as opposed to hoping that remedying some

negatives long term will be exciting

enough to keep you on track long enough

to make that habit automatic the other

thing that people do wrong I think is

focus on what's wrong with them as

opposed to their assets

and they and they don't have that locked

and loaded for that moment where they

doubt themselves they want to throw in

the towel and think I can't do this

they need to be ready to have to really

debate with that with genuine evidence

to the contrary

in the spirit of wanting to update it

more generally not just in the context

of that habit

taking life off hold so all those things

I said now everything you're going to

reward yourself with really look at it

and ask yourself if I started doing it

now would it put me in a better position

to do difficult things which is

ultimately what behavioral change is

simple but not easy

the other thing people do is they

um what else oh yeah of course I mean

you've had gobble mate on here that

um they focus on what's wrong with the

behavior that they're engaging in as

opposed to how it's serving them

they look at it as a problem as opposed

to a solution

and not only

does that take away the component of

compassion and understanding that's

required when they're stuck thinking why

am I finding this so hard I have no

willpower I must be stupid or whatever

it is is it also deprives you of

understanding whether there's a problem

that still needs solving when you take

that away

and with compassion

and sometimes people find themselves

filling that Gap with another solution

um as opposed to doing it in a way that

says you know what this behavior is

doing a job for me so if I'm not

changing something's going on and that

needs some Curious compassionate

inquiry

that definitely I think the other thing

is that um

this whole tough love the way you speak

to yourself thing

people

people think that like tough love when

you're speaking to yourself often isn't

very smart love

so if

let's say for example you came to me and

you're like true I'm trying to stay on

track with this plan and I've just

fallen off track

and I'm and my task was to get you back

on track believing in yourself as

quickly as possible

and

equipping you to carry on ultimately

making myself redundant to you

I wouldn't say to you

come on you shouldn't be finding this so

hard

this should be easier it's just like

your teacher told you when you were

little you're just the sort of person

who starts things and doesn't finish

them and then you should start on Monday

you know that's smart it's not smart and

that's where people feel super

disempowered because they're not taking

the advice they'd give another person

that's the important bit here that's the

self-esteem bit we don't have a problem

in knowing how to change habits and

people don't have a problem in knowing

what habits they want to change and how

they would benefit them and now thanks

to many of the books behind you we don't

have a problem understanding exactly how

habit change works

I think people feel patronized because

what they needed

was understanding why if I have all this

information and I'm smart and I want to

do this I'm not doing it and instead of

beating themselves up about it

to delve into the story

how did I come to be this way with

compassion how cool is it that this

isn't my fault but I've decided to make

it my responsibility

how can I use behavioral change as a

trojan horse

and the discomfort I have to sit in

that's unavoidable

short term

urges cravings

to listen in on the way that I speak to

myself and work out whether these

predictable alerts from my body

are turning into commands that I'm

obeying

I just think these are check-ins we

should do

and I wanted to give people something so

that they didn't feel like they had to

wait till things got really bad

and also so it was a private process

that's what the kindness method became

it's basically everything useful I wish

I'd had everything useful I saw in

addiction and then when I went on to

train addiction staff which was my next

job after that and working in criminal

justice just everything useful I saw

with the most

challenging resistant client

myself included bear in mind I start

using this stuff and like iterating use

it on myself using it in different ways

and I put it in the book step by step

just in case there were people like me

who wanted to change habits on their own

terms

kind of checking with the program that

they're running where'd it come from

who's it from do I wanna

switch up do you want to update it some

of it fake news

I think habit change is a great trojan

horse for listening in on the way you

speak to yourself

and debating with it until

it's updated and I'm really surprised

that we don't do that in life

if I've got a really stubborn story that

I tell myself really stubborn you know

something traumatic that happened to me

under the age of I know 10 and has

created a story a narrative in my mind

that is just you know

has control of the wheel is driving my

life my decisions and is driving the

self-talk in my head that's utterly

negative

um you must encounter people who have

that that just can't shake it

is that possible that there are some

things that we just can't

that just have too much power over us

they've changed the circuitry in our

brain to an extent that

you know

we can't change

I don't think people like me

should say yes or no to things when they

don't know who they're talking to with

the size of the platform that you have

to be honest with you

of course there are traumas that I can't

speak to of course I mean I've worked in

addiction with young people in addiction

I wouldn't have the audacity to sit here

and say yeah just and that's that's

actually what really pisses me off my

Instagram sometimes I'll see I'll see

something and I'll be like oh just

replace the negative thought with a

positive one it's like oh wow are you a

wizard

you should be on the news

and but I think one thing I will say is

I have been really pleasantly surprised

by what happens when you appeal

to people's need for evidence disprove

it the stuff we tell ourselves a lot of

the time it's not true

or it hasn't been true for a long time

that's compelling people think they can

disprove it by looking in the mirror and

saying that's not true I love you and

you're amazing and you're fantastic

you're going to be so successful

does that work helps does it some people

yeah affirmations help yeah of course I

think with all this stuff it's got to be

a combination of things I think people

just have to have have to be given the

permission to not be judged to strip

this harmless stuff down you know and do

it in a combination of ways that makes

them feel good you want to do a couple

of affirmations for a while fine when

you go off it you want to do something

else whatever fine I just feel like we

have to hold it lightly and stop calling

it remedial

you're just checking in with yourself

um but no I think listen I was I was a

pretty extreme case and for me it was a

case of saying right which

when you write down it's one of the

exercises in the first in both books

actually when you start writing down

like

one of the things I say to myself when I

fall off track

a lot of people realize that they don't

even use that vocabulary in their

day-to-day life that's not theirs

and that makes it compelling to change

it too

what is it that people tend to say when

they fall off what did you say when you

fell off me oh all of it like of course

I'm not going to be able to do it I'm

weak willed some people can do it that

was just that was a fluke anyway that I

had a bit of a streak uh people like me

don't get things like that

um mainly I'm weak I'm stupid I must

hate myself

because bear in mind all these people

are giving you these like legit reasons

why you should do other stuff and you're

going the other way and telling you that

you're harming yourself and you know

that you are you know I'm powerless I'm

weak I can't trust myself all of it and

then thinking up like Extreme Ways to

sort it out they do that because they

love you though right like that's the

paradoxes they're doing that to try and

help you they're saying you're doing

something wrong you know you're no well

no actually if you think about it like

when you tell someone you when someone

you love is struggling to get back on

track

you don't pretend that what they're

trying to do is simple

and you don't tell them to throw in the

towel you remind them of their capacity

to do something difficult you remind

them of the times they've done difficult

things in the past

and you support them

plus you give them perspective this is

what I mean about the smart thinking too

you don't go oh well you've that one

blip that's you just God gotta just

spiral this is a terrible catastrophe

you say we'll just get back on track and

you know back in the day like the first

thousand times I

had this conversation about self-talk I

used to always use the example in groups

and stuff like

um think of someone you love

write down what you say to someone you

love write their name in the middle of

the page if they'd fallen off track and

you were tasked with getting them on

back on track

and through the discomfort involved in

achieving the most meaningful long-term

goals so their behaviors and the values

are aligning

and people would write like you can do

this you're amazing what can I do for

you it's just a blip you can learn from

it think of all the other amazing things

you've done

and then I would get them to cross their

that person's name out and write their

own name in in the spirit of starting to

say look this is by your own admission

these are the things that you would tell

someone you love

then over time I realized

if I give someone a hundred grand to

motivate someone who's fallen off track

they're not gonna say oh it's because

you're weak and you're rubbish just like

your teachers told you there's no point

starting until Monday

you might as well you know destruct this

whole thing for now you might as well

throw the whole plan out

just because of one tiny blip because

you weren't perfect it's not just kind

it's just not good advice

um yeah I'm just not here for the tough

love

there's this word we use a lot in

society at the moment which is imposter

syndrome

it's really an interesting concept I

mean the word itself the phrase itself

is kind of loaded with a series of

assumptions um that I don't think are

necessarily helpful but

you must

in your practice deal with

a lot of people that are showing signs

of what we know as imposter syndrome

what's your what's your take on it and

really like how does one how does one

move past it well this is a very new

this is a hot take because it's through

an observation the way that I come up

with things is I spend as many hours as

I can speaking to people human beings

one after the other as many human beings

as I can in different contexts and

seeing how they are using these tools

and what's working for them and what

isn't and for imposter syndrome

essentially not

not being able to internalize

your accomplishments feeling like a

fraud which I've had

um

managing my binge eating and my anxiety

differently

helped me

change my imposter syndrome for the

better

and I'm seeing why that is now

I've just started work well now that I'm

so passionate about binge eating as a

result of weight loss diets being a

thing that goes with my generation

um what I've noticed is that when people

give themselves permission to find

whatever they find difficult difficult

whatever it is even if it's subjectively

far more simple than all the things

they're managing to do every day

something extraordinary happens

and

that tends to have a really

extraordinary impact because usually

with the people I work with because I'm

talking about like

booze and other drugs and food and stuff

this little shame and guilt associated

with it so that extra bit we all we all

find it difficult to acknowledge you

know a lot of us find it difficult to

say I was great at this and that's the

end of the sentence without any caveats

or and it could have been

when it comes to acknowledging our say

our professional accomplishments or

academic accomplishments the people I

work with a lot of the time feel so

ashamed and guilty about this thing that

that still eludes them

that's that's the bit they'll be like

yeah I got a pay rise but I still

haven't sorted

is watching and I

might fall down it doesn't let them

really

really internalize and process their

capacity

because well for example I

have written two books that's cool

they've done well

um writing books was not hard for me

doing this this is way this is a you

know being able to not stammer while I

speak to you because I had the

confidence to sit and breathe before I

came in here rather than look at notes

or

only Ben Jesus will understand this but

being able to start a binge and then

bring it back

as opposed to just starve myself for

weeks or whatever I was doing before is

a power and a trust in myself and an

ability to close the gap between what I

why what I would tell other people to do

and what I do and a sense of integrity

when no one's watching

that seeps into every area of my life

but the trick was to allow myself to

find something incredibly difficult that

other people

thought was a no-brainer and not think

that that meant I was stupid or weak but

just that's the way things have gone for

me

I remember sitting with Marissa Pierre

and she said that she's never had a

patient whether they were a sports star

or a you know successful millionaire or

whatever

that believed they were enough in terms

of her patience so the people that had

come to her struggling with something at

the root of it is that they they didn't

believe they were enough in some

capacity

do you agree with that

I think uh yeah I think self-worth

self-worth is something that comes up a

lot and if I come to you and you know

it's clear that I have my self-worth is

in the proverbial bin

I just think I'm a [ __ ] you know

useless worthless

don't deserve anything

um

what's the start of that process to get

me to a better place like where do you

what'd you do with me

so if you came to me it wouldn't be just

the problem wouldn't be I have low

self-worth it would be I want to change

this Behavior yeah right and I want to

change it I've been you know drinking

too much alcohol smoking too much of

that sniffing too much of this

where would you start with me

well we would get an honest Baseline of

where you're at now so that's why in the

book we do like a snapshot letter

without judgment totally private

to just say like I think a lot of the

time we create plans for who we want to

be as opposed to Who We Are

and we use this stuff to find ourselves

and I think first of all you meet

yourself and you get on board with who

you meet

and then I would help you to understand

why you've come to be this way so in

that first step getting yeah you know

getting to understand who I am and

getting on board with who I meet that's

through a snapshot letter yeah so it's

essentially saying here we are today

this is where I'm at this is where I've

got to this is where I'm starting

usually it's quite a Fed Up letter like

something's got to change here we go

but what it does is it sort of anchors

the process and says right this is where

we begin

and then when we start moving on to is

the fact that you already know what to

do

I believe that the people who buy my

books already know what to do and I

believe that a lot of people feel really

patronized when they're told what to do

they know what to do

and if they don't they can Google it

they don't know why they're not doing it

despite wanting to do it

so then we start thinking about closing

the gap between the advice you'd give

another person so I just say to people

what would you like to be doing I don't

give them an A or a B I would like to be

running a marathon every day every you

know every couple of months I'd like to

be fit I'd like to be skinny I'd like to

be a good partner I'd want to be perfect

okay

why why are you here why are we having

this conversation because I'm not I'm

drinking so much hardcore sniffing so

many things and doing all the naughty

things I shouldn't be doing and I can't

stop myself but I know you're right I do

know what I should be doing I just can't

do it okay yeah and in the past when

you've created plans to change yeah

what have they look like

um I've basically thrown all of the

alcohol at my house and everything that

I could possibly sniff and I have

emptied the fridge and put only

vegetables in

and I have

um written it down on a piece of paper

and then a week later

I'm back to all of the naughty habits so

what you've done is you've punished

yourself you've put things in place yeah

to say this has got bad yeah I need to

create this environment and control and

isolate yeah so that I don't do the bad

thing yeah did you establish why what

what you're afraid you might have to

experience if you change did you

identify if you get there

what if it's not as good as you think if

you get there will you have to do all

the things that you've told people

you're going to do when you get there

is the process of getting there one that

you're familiar with no all of that what

do you think you're gonna have to get

through what are you gonna have to prove

what do you what triggers you can have

to respond to differently these are the

things people don't talk about what

self-doubt are you gonna have to push

against and disprove and update along

the way

it's it's not about thinking you're

going to be able to focus on what's bad

and also you should anticipate that in a

week's time you're going to want to use

you should put things in place what can

I put in place to you know this is I

found this really compelling in your

book The because something I think about

a lot you know we think of motivation as

being this like constant people ask

stupid questions like how do you stay

motivated all the time which is again an

assumption that people that are

successful in whatever facet of their

life are able to always feel a sense of

motivation but um how does one prepare

for that

that dip that speed bump that you know

the regression the relapse

it's uh I think the best bet you have is

the conversation you have with yourself

and your plans don't go to plan

and at the I think first of all you

prepare by yeah you can have the best

plans in the world but you should assume

that your plans will not go to plan and

even with the best tools in the world

you should assume that you're not able

to preempt every single trigger

every single challenge

the way that you do it is you start to

reframe challenge as an opportunity to

voluntarily demonstrate your capacity

you're like here we go

I

I'm off I'm off grid right now

and all I've got is the advice I'd give

another person and the conversation I

have with myself that's going to turn

into what I do with my hands well don't

do

and I think that if you really focus on

making that conversation one that holds

firmness and compassion together

then that's the best thing you've got

because what you're chasing there is to

feel smart and calm and proud of

yourself

and you already know what you tell

someone else

so the more you do that and the more you

take that advice

and you see the results obviously and it

actually works the more you start doing

it in other areas of your life and my my

job is to make myself redundant to

people as quickly as possible I think we

should have been taught this at school

we have to change habits our whole lives

like why is life dragging us along and

making us change them when we're all

depleted and desperate

um so yeah I would say it's the

conversation you have with yourself and

the conversation you have with yourself

very often people people say to me like

how how can I hold kindness and firmness

at the same time right so how can I

change habits which involves sitting in

discomfort and craving and urges and

still be kind to myself because being

kind to myself means doing whatever I

want whenever I want to do it

and what I always tell them is it's kind

of like if you let's say you have a kid

and you read an article somewhere and

realized that this treat you've been

giving your kid at 11AM every day for

the last year is actually not very it's

really unhealthy so as of tomorrow

you're not going to give the kid the

treat you know you're not going to give

the kid the treat the kid doesn't know

yet kid wakes up tomorrow it's 11

o'clock you're not going to give them

the treat what's what's the kid going to

do want the treat and and what else cry

kick off yeah

would you blame the kid for crying

no you'd expect the kid to cry yeah it's

used to something

you wouldn't make its life miserable

you'd make it as comfortable as possible

and you just repeat that in a row

until it realizes that it's come out

unscathed

compassion I know why you feel this way

of course you feel this way you deserve

to feel this way you scream all you want

babe that doesn't mean I'm gonna do what

you want

that's the conversation you have with

your body over and over again where you

hold compassion and firmness together

until you've done it in a row until it's

easy

that's my angle and if I it does it does

it help to remove the you know the kid

wants the candy or whatever yeah

whatever the thing the kid was expecting

in the morning does it help to remove it

from the environment

so if I if it's you know I've struggled

sometimes with like I had this like

sweetie draw in my house at one point

and

I I knew I didn't want to eat the sweets

but when something would happen maybe

it'd be late at night I feel a bit

hungry maybe you know a bit stressed I'd

end up in a draw

and so I always always wondered to

myself would it just help to just remove

the drawer just like pour it in the bin

I ultimately did

um

but I'm just wondering if those cues

those triggers removing them completely

is the answer

I have this question all the time about

abstinence and sobriety and whether

you know again there are some people for

whom

it's easier

my Approach is very much more for the

general population and so a lot of the

time it's more you know we all sit in

the middle and I want you to feel like

you can have chocolate in your house and

consume it and enjoy it and not feel

powerless over it so at the core of my

message is you decide what you do with

your hands and any negotiation you have

internally about it is a jumping off

point and doesn't actually make you do

anything and it's an insight into how

what you're telling yourself about the

sugar and what it means and how you'll

feel if you don't have it

if you were trying to build up a streak

and get some time onto your belt yeah

maybe

But ultimately what I would recommend

under those circumstances impose some

friction

give yourself some speed bumps to start

thinking about whether you actually want

to do it so for example if I want to if

I'm working into the night

writing which I love doing invariably at

like 1am I start thinking about

deliveroo and about 3 A.M I regret it

strongly same so with that in mind I

don't just delete deliveroo

call details are out addresses out it's

not because I don't trust myself

it's because I want to put in moments

where I think ah remember you didn't

want to do this do you remember why you

didn't want to do this

make it harder for myself

to do the thing that I don't want to be

doing and easier for myself to do the

thing that I do like back in the day

when I used to hate exercise I used to

go to sleep in my gym kit

so there was just one less thing to do

um so that's like removing friction

exactly versus adding it exactly so I

would if I were you I'd impose friction

first like put that draw somewhere else

and and then when you go looking in

another place start thinking to yourself

God why is that draw it disrupts the

autopilot

that's what's something I struggled with

I I do a lot of like late night eating

and then I always regret it in the

morning because you wake up feeling bad

especially if you've eaten just before

you fall asleep the body hasn't really

had a chance to digest it sometimes you

get like some I don't know reflux

whatever they call it and I've always

wondered how to stop myself doing that

when I have when I have the urge

how do I break that habit I guess what's

the friction that I can add

don't be hungry at that time

true that's you know what sometimes I

get really deep in the Weeds about binge

eating and policy around it and obesity

and how we've got to take down all the

diets and everything and sometimes I

forget to say stuff like don't be hungry

that helps you know like there's so many

like deep psychological stuff and we all

have our own complex relationship with

food and stuff and the that's what's

really difficult about talking about

food

is because it is all the good things too

it really is

and much like with alcohol and Other

Drugs when people people who struggle

and feel powerless around it feel really

misunderstood

because they hate it by that point it's

the bane of their life it's all they

think about all day have I been good

have I been bad

what am I going to have was that okay

conflicting nutritional advice like

let's go out of hand

ladies and gentlemen I am so excited

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when they think about Airbnb they think

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supporting us on this show means a lot

you wrote a book about that topic the

last called the last diet why did you

call it the last diet

because I will never gonna die again

well I don't want anyone to go on a diet

again they didn't work

they just didn't work

like whenever anybody says to me like

yeah but so and so is overweight and

it's unhealthy or whatever they have to

go on a diet I'm like well no actually

quite the contrary I'm now working with

people who have not only been left not

with the physical results that they

wanted but have been left with a much

more serious issue

um which is an eating disorder a binge

eating disorder which is wildly damaging

their mental health and their

self-esteem and their ability to enjoy

their lives most the people have come to

me now couldn't give a [ __ ] about losing

weight anymore

they're like remove this lack of trust

remove this powerlessness like make this

end how did this come about and that was

because of weight loss diets in my

opinion on the back of this book it says

this is the last diet you'll ever go on

yeah what is that diet

it's the diet of learning to stop do of

trusting yourself and taking Common

Sense advice now obviously we can we can

go into like whose body what and blood

types and da da da But ultimately the

people I speak to are doing so much

so many of their behaviors are causing

them to gain weight a lot of weight

because of the guilt and the shame and

the All or nothing and the scarcity

mindset and the the Feast of famine that

has come with weight loss diets with the

best of intentions

um and so once they have managed that

and built the self-efficacy that they so

deserve from managing to break the all

or nothing thinking trust themselves

around food learn to enjoy food again

sit in the discomfort of realizing that

they're going to be okay without it get

on board with the fact that they find it

hard when other people don't and build

their self-esteem that way and use the

unhelpful behaviors as a vehicle

to remembering how capable they are

then they can just take the same advice

they would give to another person

because they're not scared of food

anymore and they're not scared of

themselves anymore

and they like themselves so they're more

inclined to make

to make judgments that feel smart you

know I got to a stage where I was doing

diets where someone would show me a

banana and a canister of cream and I'd

be like well the canister of cream is

obviously better for me

that's how messed up and you know what I

know you think it's weird

I assure you I've spoken to enough

people now who are going I know exactly

what she's talking about that's the

extent to which intelligent people start

moving away from Intelligent Decisions

because diets needed us to come back

they needed you to be powerless they

need you to need guidelines or else you

need to pay more and pay someone else

and go find another Guru or get another

diet

as opposed to teach you how to take the

same advice you'd give another person

there is no way that if someone was

trying to manage their weight and they

ate something bad you would say oh well

you've blown it now you should have 15

more

you said earlier you secretly had a

gastric band fitted mm-hmm

well secretly close friends knew but a

lot of my close friends didn't know I

was just done

when I got to my heaviest I was like

that's it I'm done how have you

126 kilos

and then you had it

removed in like a emergency operation

yeah I'm always careful about talking

about it because again I'm afraid that

people are going to be actually you know

what I'm not promoting it by any means

sorry I I know that there are people for

whom it's been really helpful but it did

not teach me to eat differently and the

reason I had an emergency operation is

because my relationship with food was so

profoundly important to me I didn't

understand at the time

that I um

I've never talked to anyone about this

but the band moved

because I overrate

but I kept having it tightened because I

didn't want to be allowed to overeat

because I thought if I've done this to

myself and honestly Steve's like the

pain

it was horrible it was horrible I felt

so ashamed and then I lost a bunch of

weight because it actually can

I won't go into details but it can cause

a different eating disorder I lost a

bunch of weight and I people start being

really nice like you know they reflect

back to you your worst fears

when you lose weight they'll be like oh

wow

we were so worried about you finally now

you can live your life and you're like

[ __ ] I thought that was just me

um and then I felt ashamed because I

thought like I'd copped out

and now I realize on reflection it's

extraordinary that I thought I'd copped

out and you know what the first version

of the kindness method doesn't have that

in it I wasn't ready

I wasn't I hadn't forgiven myself

for being so mean to myself I hadn't

forgiven myself for feeling so shameful

and I hadn't told some of my closest

friends who were there at the time

and I'm sure knew

um that had the grace and the kindness

not to embarrass me

but it was horrible and the day I came

out of surgery I remember with the

emergency surgery

they told me they were going to try and

keep it in

and I remember I came out and the woman

went um

I'm really sorry we had to take it out

and I burst into tears of joy

I hated it

I hated the whole thing I took the lying

I hate the shame I hated the guilt my

body didn't feel good

because even when I lost weight it

wasn't because I was taking care of

myself

it's because I was living living on so

little it just felt like another version

of punishment you know

um it did not do good things for me

how do you how do you feel about that

person that you were that that young

woman who made the decision to fit that

band and went through all of that pain

how did you how do you feel about her

I can't believe how quick she was

to think that people would be upset with

her or ashamed of

or that she should be ashamed

I can't believe there wasn't that extra

layer that said gosh

look what you're having to put yourself

through or you think you have to put

yourself through

there wasn't even a bit of that

it was as though I was born with the

knowledge is as though I had told myself

that I was born with the knowledge to

make the best decisions for myself ever

and if I wasn't then it was a failing on

my part and I was faulty

and I you know I don't feel that anymore

thank goodness

um

you know I think it's also important to

remember that I was all the great things

I am now then that was the point I was

allowed to enjoy my life then so there's

also part of me that's just like wow

it's a real shame

it's a real shame that you didn't kind

of lean into the other stuff because I

was always fun I was always finding I

was always kind

um I wish I had known at that age that

you're allowed to think that you're good

things too

that you know that's okay

what were there any sort of specific

moments or catalysts or dominoes that

fell that created the change you've seen

in your life from the person you were

then to now was there you know if

someone's can relate strongly to that

situation where you're having that

gastric band removed in an emergency orb

and they're looking at the person you

are now

what's what's the piece in between the

actionable piece in between that they

can or even the first step in that

Journey

is it going and seeing a therapist is it

the first actionable step

is

practicing listening listening into the

way you speak to yourself

I think it'll I think ultimately it

comes down to that

I think listen in and the great news is

if you try to change a habit however

small it's an incredibly effective way

to turn up the volume

listen in on what's going on

inquire compassionately curiously what

am I telling myself what am I what are

my assumptions about myself in this

situation

what are my assumptions about what I

deserve curiously write them down think

about whether you'd say that to someone

else

and then start thinking about where it

came from

start seeing whether it's true

just start curiously inquiring because I

think that's the best thing you've got

and it's free

where are you where are you now in terms

of your own self-talk and your own

process and your own perception of self

I am really good I am

this is the best I've ever been

because everything's not great there's a

lot going on and I'm fine

that's why

that's how I know

I know how I would have responded to

things that are happening right now for

two three five years ago this

you know I slept really well last night

am I telling you I kind of felt like

this would go well like this was my time

to tell people what I'm passionate about

and speak to the people who

feel like some people don't get them

um

so right now I feel great because it's

kind of it feels like my nervous

system's kind of got the message you're

safe you're harmless you're just trying

to be nice

and no one's coming for you like

and so far

um the more I'm myself the more it seems

to go all right

which for me personally is of course

considering what I've told you is an

extraordinary thing

and other than what I have to say my

name on the spot which I know a lot of

stammers have

I don't seem to be stammering and I know

that it was a trauma response now

and I think that a lot of the

self-compassion work that I've done has

helped me to calm down

like a lot of this stuff realize that if

I Stam it all the way through this

um it would I'd still be someone who was

worth listening to

that that nervous system the anxiety you

talked about what sort of methods have

you put in place to help you calm down

writing for sure so when I'm panicking

about something most of the time you

know there's that confirmation com

component of just like yep and it did

have you only remember the times it did

happen right so I started collecting all

the things I thought were going to

happen that I was worrying about and

real like just writing them down or just

saying them into my phone and then every

now and then I'd reflect and be like wow

good to know that like I need evidence

you know I need stuff

so I was like all right well the last

100 times you worried about this it did

not happen

and so that helped me calm down

that made it compelling for me

breath work

talking about anxiety understanding

anxiety and what it is and what the

brain's trying to do and about keeping

you safe and all that stuff

and eventually much like you know

whether it's the militant mindfulness

that I come at or the more like

meditative stuff and the more old school

stuff it was essentially a separation

between

uh what I'm thinking right now and

what's actually going on in a curious

compassionate

um look into

why my thoughts are going the way they

are and also it's an understanding it's

a preemption so for example

I should

well I probably won't now that I've said

it which is another thing like get it

out put it in the put it in the light

loads of us are suffering with anxiety

um

to a different degree of course

emptying it made it a lot more

predictable and a lot less personal so

for example the last big

podcast I went on I anticipated I

actually wrote myself a letter before

and I was like after you leave even if

you think you smashed it

you're going to start second guessing

everything you said you're going to

sketch out not want to talk to anyone

about it because they're going to ask

you questions and you're going to think

you forgot something so I just preempted

it I just as we say in addiction I

played the tape forward

and then it started making it more like

oh yeah this is what my brain does to

keep me safe take me back to my place

where I'm used to but actually the last

hundred times it tried to do that I had

nothing to be worried about so I kind of

just realized that I wasn't by myself

anymore I was with myself

and we were working out what was going

on and it got a lot more predictable and

that made it a lot less personal which

made me a lot more calm

and in terms of food

yes

what's your relationship like with food

these days calm

and wonderful I never thought this day

would come I eat what I like

I look forward to eating

I don't feel like I need to justify to

anyone what I'm eating or why I'm eating

it

and great thing happened which for me

you know with writing self-help books

and stuff you know

especially when you're telling people

you're going to change for good and I've

changed for good well I only wrote it

five years ago what do they know you

know so sometimes you have to do things

privately for your own Integrity to be

like oh thank you

and lockdown I put on weight

I didn't eat differently

I didn't feel bad I thought I looked

great and I was like yes I needed this

and then after lockdown I got into

fitness and I've lost weight lost a bit

more weight and I honestly I don't like

myself less or more

so during lockdown what I saw was

um

an example of what it is to just be a

human whose body fluctuates without much

judgment or emotion around food and it

was a wonderful important lesson for me

and I'm really glad now on reflection

even though it wasn't planned

that I did put on weight during that

period because I needed to see that it

didn't matter anymore

and it wasn't because I was neglecting

myself because usually I run around town

all day and I wasn't doing that

and it was so lovely to just have that

be for

regular body reasons and not

shame or guilt or sadness or abuse or

numbing out or whatever

um so yeah I love food now plus

I'm really uh glad no one talks to me

about it anymore because of the book

that I think they're scared to

I mean people don't quite know where I

sit like because I think it's fine for

people to want to lose weight

I think it's really messed up that we

got told for a lifetime especially women

lose weight lose weight lose weight lose

weight oh no you can't go on a diet and

you're not allowed to want to lose

weight you have to love your body

exactly how it is meantime a bunch of us

tried to do what they said and came out

of the diets bigger and with a eating

disorder that makes us feel powerless

even to

um

even to follow Common Sense nutritional

guidelines

so yeah I don't have any problem with

people wanting to do whatever they want

to do it's just that in my case

it came as a result I was never

before a lockdown when I done all this

work and I had all the methods and all

the things I share

there was never a time when I was

overweight because I liked food

or I was enjoying food or it was too

much of a good thing that's why I

understood addiction

if you saw that I was overweight

according to whatever's you know scales

and society and whatever bigger than I

am now

it was always because I it those are the

times I hated food the most it was the

bane of my life I barely tasted it I

know

but the same if you speak to someone who

feels dependent or powerless over

alcohol they're not going to be like oh

I love boots

it becomes when you're powerless

it becomes horrible

and so

there was a space for me to

like myself a lot more when I was bigger

but because I neglected all these other

habits of self-care I wasn't drinking

water I wasn't like just basic stuff

at times when I was bigger it meant that

I wasn't being good to myself but that

is not the case for Everyone by any

means in fact for many people it's quite

the opposite

so that's where I think because it's

quite a nuanced conversation and one

that I've given an enormous amount of

thought to don't get me wrong I didn't

I didn't I wasn't naive about coming out

to talk about things like this I knew I

needed to work out where I sat but I

knew I meant well and I knew I was on

the right path but I had to understood

where I understand where I sat so that's

where now I think people sometimes they

don't ask me about it because they're

not sure

which side I'm on and the fact is it's

both what is your mission now

what's your what's your personal mission

what are you trying to do there's

twofold I want one I want to convince

people that kindness gets [ __ ] done

being nice to yourself and taking the

same advice you would give the people

you love and closing the gap

between what you would tell them and

what you tell yourself and what actions

you would tell them to take and what

actions you take yourself

that's kindness and it gets [ __ ] done

one and two now that I've seen what's

come back from the second book with the

last diet

I am con I am determined to have binge

eating and powerlessness and lack of

trust that people have as a direct

result of weight loss diets to die with

my generation

like it's Gotta Go

because people my age

they know they don't want to pass this

on to their kids no one does

um it's going with me

we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last guest asks a

question for the next guest

um not knowing who they're leaving it

for

the question that they've left for you

or is it ever appropriate

to hurt someone's feelings

yes

I think so I've recently hurt someone's

feelings and it was very upsetting for

me as well

but it was appropriate because

it wasn't all mine to carry

and it was appropriate to share

it wasn't nice for me either

but it wasn't all mine

so it was okay to say to them

this is

this is what's upset me about you and I

know it will upset you to hear this

but

I shouldn't be carrying all of this when

you're responsible for some of it

and that will have upset them

yeah

sure thank you thank you so much for

your time thank you for these wonderful

books thank you for all of your work

thank you for the wonderful way that you

articulate and deliver your opinions

it's um it really does cut and that's um

that's exactly what makes for a great

conversationalist and podcaster and I

love your no BS approach to

the way that you communicate and serve

and think because it's uh it's really

refreshing to be honest and that's

pretty much why I I've Loved this

conversation but also I wanted you to

come here because I saw your

conversation with MO

ah yes you have a really no BS way of

articulating yourself which I think is

very much needed um and your your

perspective on on kindness as a method

to many of these things that we're

trying to solve as humans we often

default to like the opposite of kindness

we're mean to ourselves about and mean

to others about I think is I've learned

the hard way that is very much the the

way forward

so thank you so much thank you for

having me

[Music]

you know I never really usually pick the

chocolate flavored heels my favorite are

the banana flavor I love The Salted

Caramel flavor but recently I think I in

part blame Jack in my team who's

obsessed with the chocolate flavor heals

I've started drinking the chocolate

flavor Hills for the first time and I

absolutely love them my life means that

I sometimes disregard my diet and it's

funny that's part of the reason why I've

had a lot of guests on this podcast

recently that talk about diet and health

and those kinds of things because I am

trying to make an active effort to be

more healthy to lose a little bit of

weight as well but to be more healthy

and the role that heal plays in my life

is it means that in those moments where

sometimes I might reach for

you know junk Foods

having an option that is nutritionally

complete that is high in fiber that is

incredibly high in protein that has all

the vitamins and minerals that my body

needs within Arm's Reach that I can

consume on the go is where he always

been a game changer for me

[Music]

foreign

[Music]

you got to the end of this podcast

whenever someone gets to the end of this

podcast I feel like I owe them a greater

debt of gratitude because that means you

listen to the whole thing and hopefully

that suggests that you enjoyed it if you

are at the end and you enjoyed this

podcast could you do me a little bit of

a favor and hit that subscribe button

that's one of the clearest indicators we

have that this episode was a good

episode and we look at that on all of

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generated the most subscribers

thank you so much and I'll see you again

next time