I'm I'm sick of multi-millionaires

telling kids who can't afford to turn

the heating on you just need to be more

entrepreneurial it's sick Dan it's sick

well your video where you talk about if

you don't have a rich dad you're screwed

well to me if I had have come across

your content at 19 20 years old I would

have been screwed my friends can't feed

their kids okay if it was that easy why

is everybody not doing it I'll tell you

why people aren't doing it it's because

you like to say one thing back on

that today's debate is fiery to say the

least but important nonetheless as I sat

down with two leading experts in wealth

and Entrepreneurship and the economy to

discuss the state of the US the state of

the UK and the Western World do you

think the reason the average Brit

American are getting poorer is because

they don't know how to create wealth no

the reason people are getting poorer is

because of big governments record levels

of taxes an outdated schooling system

technology and remote working you sure

about that how do you disagree with

those opinions living standards are

falling because of growing wealth in

equality if you allow the rich to get

richer they squeeze the middle class and

the poor class out of things like

housing let's cut tax on people who are

working hard and let's raise tax on the

richest and most powerful people in the

world that's an overly simplified view

of things we now have a th000

millionaires a month leaving which means

every ordinary person who pays 10 grand

a year in tax will now have to pay 20

grand a year in tax you end up cutting

off your nose to spite your face if we

are a country that don't try and do

things which are necessary because they

are hard then our kids will live in

poverty what do you want people to do

there's a lot of different ways Backle

up this has always blown my mind a

little bit 53% of you that listen to the

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much

Gary

Daniel Daniel you've been on the show a

few times before so I want to start with

Gary and understand a little bit about

your backstory and who you are and

having been through the trading game and

read and watched many many of your

videos over time I have a a sort of deep

understanding of that but for anyone

that doesn't know you can you give me a

picture of the context that um has

brought you to where you are today

writing about the things you're writing

about today and running the YouTube

channel and speaking to the subject

matter that you're speaking about today

take me right back and give me as much

as you possibly can okay so my name is

Gary Stevenson uh I was born in a place

called ilford which is in outer East

London quite a poor family little

Terrace House by the railway you know

playing football in the streets kind of

stuff

um always very good at maths since I was

a kid very talented Master student

eventually able to get into the London

School of Economics which is an

extremely Elite University economics

University in the center of London which

is basically a kind of investment

banking boot camp got a job as a Trader

started working full-time as a

short-term interest rates Trader at City

Bank in London in June

2008 when I was 21 obviously yeah

exactly that's just before the big

credit crash the big Leman crisis and I

watched the Leman Crisis happen in front

of my eyes I was um short-term interest

rate trading is basically like

short-term loans and during the credit

crisis what credit crisis is is nobody

can borrow any money so like short-term

loans become really really important

important my desk which was like

historically an unfashionable area of

trading became like the center of the

crisis or one of the centers of the

crisis people started making tons of

money um I was working with all these

crazy people and you can imagine me like

I turn up 21 years old and then like

within three months like everyone around

me is making a ton of money during the

credit crisis but what really interested

me was what happened after the crisis

itself which was so we're betting on

interest

rates long story short interest rates

come down when the economy is weak and

they go up when the economy is strong or

when the economy is overheating from an

inflation perspective in 2018 all the

interest rates go to zero so suddenly

our job is basically predicting and

betting on when will those interest

rates go back up which is when will the

economy recover and this is super

interesting right in

2008 because all the interest rates went

to zero so quickly like before 2008 it's

important to remember rates would move

from like five and a half to five and a

quarter and then here in 2008 everywhere

in the world slashing to zero Bo half a

percent exactly and everybody all the

economists were like wow this is going

to cause a massive recovery because they

thought that interest rates were

powerful and everybody predicted that

rates would come back up in 2009 which

of course we knowed they didn't then

everybody predicted that rates would go

up in 2010 which we now know they didn't

and then at the beginning of 2011

everybody was predicting rates would

definitely go up this year and this to

me was so interesting so interesting

because you know I studied master and

economics at one of the best economics

universities in the world and now I'm

working with these traders who are

getting paid millions of pounds a year

million pounds a year to predict the

economy to predict the interest rates

and everybody is wrong year after year

after year and this

was I was so amazing to me for a couple

of reasons first of all it's like wow

like this is a big thing that we as a

society should understand and like we're

getting it wrong but secondly

if all of the best guys in the world are

getting this wrong then if I can figure

this out I can make a ton of money here

G how much money did you make for City

Bank at the age of 24 years old that

year so that year 2011 I put this big

bet on that it would get worse forever

and I was City bank's most profitable

Trader in the world that year and I made

them just over $ 35 million you made

them $35 million you eventually decide

to leave City Bank yeah why

I mean I think that's an interesting

question right you know in the sense

that I've just explained to you what

happened which is I made a ton of money

by betting on the collapse of Western

Society uh I did it in 2011 I did it

again in 2012

um I would prefer for it not to collapse

step and I'm trying to stop it from

collapsing when you say it collapsing

what exactly you're referring to that

you you don't want to

collapse so you you born in Botswana

right yeah do you still have family

there um I've got family in Nigeria

which is where my my family are from I

was born in Botswana because we were

visiting there but got family in Africa

do you go to Nigeria much no I I've got

home in Cape Town in South Africa so I

see the it's a great place if you want

to see inequality I think there

is a naivity in in in this country in

places like the US that the kind of

inequality the kind of broad poverty

that you see in places like South Africa

in places like Nigeria in places like

India can't happen

here it will happen here that is the

future of this country that is the

future of the US and I'm not just saying

that I'm betting on it and I've been

betting on it for 15 years and I've been

right for 15 years that is what I'm

trying to avoid

Daniel where did you come from yeah so I

grew up in Australia um and I was born

to low-income family I grew up in a

place that had 24% Unemployment uh

pretty much the only jobs or

opportunities around me were things like

uh the trades building construction Pest

Control um hospitality and tourism um so

uh at 14 I got a job at McDonald's and

then I'm got a job in a bar and Pizza

Hut delivery driving and I discover

entrepreneurship so I discover books

about entrepreneurship and I discovered

that some people make millions similar

to yourself you saw Canary WF I read a

book about business ownership and as we

sit here today can you give me the

overview of your business success since

then yeah so I now have a group of

companies that I've either started or

bought um there's I've just sold a

company so there's seven companies in

the group um I've started a couple of

software companies one of our companies

is now the fastest growing one of the

fastest growing companies in the UK um

we you know we're a software business uh

I've got a couple of agencies I've got a

Education and Training business and

where when you think about the UK and

broadly the Western world today

what is your assessment of where we're

at as a country and what's concerning

you because Gary expressed quite

articulately that his big concern is

that because of wealth INE equality

we're going to end up in a similar

position to the likes of India what are

you concerned about I agree that it

wasn't that long ago that we had real

serious wealth inequality in this

country there are amazing photos from

like a 100 years ago of kids working in

mines and kids doing oyster shocking and

all this horrible work and um you know

there's a there's a book Charles Dickens

wrot wrote called The Tale of Two Cities

and the opening line of the book is it

was the best of times it was the worst

of times and I think we've actually

gotten to that point here where some

people in the UK it's the best of times

if you uh like in your situation you're

you know you're booming you're a

globally successful business um I've got

a globally successful business and then

there are a lot of people who completely

cannot relate to this their you know

Energy prices are now the most expensive

in the Western World house prices are

completely unaffordable it used to be

used to take 3 years to for a deposit

it's now 20 years if you you know

theoretically 20 years if you can save

for a deposit food prices are through

the roof so we're we're in a really diff

like for anyone who is not tapped into

digital economy fast growth and all of

that sort of stuff life is getting

harder and worse um and things are

collapsing um if you if you would um go

with that the there is a predictable

path countries go on and there's this

thing called the economic freedom index

and the economic freedom index basically

says how economically free are you how

how much access do you have to free

markets um do can you start a business

can you scale a business um does

anything inhibit your ability to run

your own life countries that have high

degrees of economic freedom have very

low poverty they have widespread

affluence and countries that have low

economic freedoms have high poverty and

it can be the difference between less

than 10% right up to 70% poverty rates

um and when countries go on a path

towards economic freedom poverty just

drops so India for examp example has

been on that path and they announced

today that they've almost eradicated uh

abject poverty or extreme poverty um the

UK went on that path of low economic

freedom to high economic freedom and we

saw poverty rates come right down but in

2008 when the global financial crisis

happened one of the things that happened

is the government said we need to step

in and we need to take charge and

everyone said please do um so they came

in and they said all right we're going

to ramp up debt ramp up taxes uh to pay

for the debt and we're also going to put

it all regul in and unfortunately that

starts to reduce economic freedom then

the pandemic happens and they say oh

we're going to spend more money again

through debt we're going to have more uh

taxes more regulations less economic

freedom so the UK we went from an 82

when I arrived in 2006 went from 82 out

of 100 down to 68 out of 100 so we're

less economically free and predictably

what we will always see happen if you

lower people's economic freedom more

poverty

uh less affluence uh the Millionaires

and the wealth creators leave uh the

people who are stuck in um dead end jobs

uh or no jobs get incredibly frustrated

everyone starts looking for someone to

blame people are angry and they're like

who do we blame and who do they blame

it's very different because in the US we

blame us blam someone different to the

UK so we have a historical cultural

memory in the UK we have a cultural

memory that the people to blame are the

rich so so uh we have landlords and uh

aristocracy and the landed gentry those

guys are to blame right so blame the

rich is what we say in the UK in the US

they have a very different view their

cultural memory is that they're

anti-government they want limited

government in 2023 there was this song

that came out called uh rich men north

of uh Richmond and it was the number one

song in America and the lyrics of the

song basically says people in Washington

do not care about working people um they

ATT taxing everything we touch you can't

earn money they depreciate the dollar um

they tax tax tax tax tax and they want

to control Our Lives those are the

lyrics of the songs controlling our

lives and taxing us so the American uh

reaction to this is who's to blame

government so we want smaller government

we want a department of government

efficiency to come in we want someone as

a wrecking ball who will come in and

smash government the British instinct is

hate the rich it must be the Rich's

fault so when we look for like all all

of the Western countries that

implemented lower economic

freedoms created more poverty less

affluence and more disruption to their

economies so both us and UK for example

and Australia as well but both sides of

the pond want someone to blame it's just

that the Americans blame government and

we blame the rich Gary I'm sure you you

have a lot to to say there I know you

both use the word collapsing so you

agree that there's a problem here but I

think you from studying both of your

sort of perspectives you think that this

the solution and the cause of the

problem is different I mean I put bets

on I put bets on I put bet that's what I

do I put bets on um at the beginning of

covid we knew the government was going

to give enormous amount of money out um

total amount of money now UK government

deficit since the beginning of Co is is1

trillion pounds US number is $4

trillion that's you know £20,000 per UK

adult

my background is I understand that when

the distribution gets worse when

inequality gets worse living standards

full so when when the UK government was

going to give a trillion pounds out all

I wanted to know was who's going to end

up with that money that's all I wanted

to know and um I mean the US number 13

trillion 14 trillion is just outlandish

but I think the most amazing thing I've

ever seen in my whole

life was that at the beginning of Co the

very beginning of Co we knew governments

across the world we're going to be

giving out tens of trillions of pounds

dollars

Euros nobody even thought to ask who's

going to get tens of trillions richer

nobody in the conservatives nobody in

labor nobody in the Republicans nobody

in Democrats nobody in the media nobody

in Academia nobody the central banks

nobody asked this it's

it's it's it's almost beautiful it's

it's unbelievable it's unbeliev so I I

sat down and I did I did the analysis at

the beginning because lockdown is

essentially Banning the spending of the

rich

and replacing that spending of the rich

with printed money from government what

happens is the government gives workers

money they use that money to pay their

bills to pay their rent pay their

mortgage it goes to the rich the rich

can't spend it because they're locked

indoors and what you get is essentially

an enormous amount of money from the

government to the poor to the rich and

this massive massive transfer of wealth

um that was obviously going that was so

obviously going to happen at the

beginning of Co nobody discussed it

which I think is itself

amazing let me ask you a question right

if we were now to pause the economy for

2 years and during that pause massively

increase wealth inequality what do you

think would happen to Broad living

conditions when we

unpaused see one of the things that I

think happened during the pandemic is

everything went digital and um

entrepreneurs and investors did actually

think about what would happen the

investors immediately boomed stocks like

zoom and uh Microsoft and we ended up

with the Magnificent 7 um I don't know

if you you know there's seven big tech

companies in the USA market and those

big seven companies have gone from five

trillion valuation to 17 TR trillion

valuation uh in the time of the pandemic

and if you think about what did the

pandemic do uh everyone had to work from

home so we all had to have Microsoft

subscriptions everyone went onto website

so we all went to AWS uh Amazon we all

started buying and learning how to buy

from Amazon rather than buying from from

our local high streets every business in

the world figured out how to run their

business remotely uh we had this massive

transformation it wasn't it was like

it's actually a wholesale transformation

of society that we all learned how to

live and work differently um I saw a

boom in entrepreneurship so what I saw

as an entrepreneur accelerator um

someone who runs an entrepreneur

accelerator is just there was this

sudden boom in people launching

businesses uh setting up Shopify

accounts setting up YouTube uh

businesses so the money really has moved

from the traditional economy the 2019

High Street economy over to the digital

economy and what we see is that the

investors know what's going on and they

just invest in This Magnificent Seven

company I think 50% of the gains of the

S&P 500 is tech companies um so all the

money just goes flooding into the the

technology companies my my belief is

that technolog is really dividing people

that essentially if you take anyone from

any background if they work in

technology uh if they're in Media Tech

Finance any of that stuff that operates

online they tend to actually do pretty

pretty well after the pandemic I ask you

a question yeah go for do you think the

average Brit American Australian whoever

the person out there is watching if they

quit their job and go work in Tech do

you think they'll be able to get

Financial Security relatively

easily depends when you defi Define

Financial Security the issue with house

prices the ability to raise a family

have a home yeah so having a home is a

big issue right so here's here's what I

here's what I see with houses cuz houses

annoy me as well my dad bought a house

for

$188,000 which is about £10,000 or less

than £10,000 and it's probably worth

over a million dollars um uh today so

something went wrong and and this by the

way is not UK specific uh the socialist

countries had house prices go through

the roof if you go to Norway or Sweden

their house prices grew by 600% uh in

then it's happening everywhere it's not

specific to anywhere it's happening

everywhere but but what happened what

what has definitely in the UK is we

actually have um a housing traffic jam

so in this country in the UK we have 9.5

million homes that have two or more

spare bedrooms big family homes have two

or more spare bedrooms and when you look

into who owns those houses 78% of

housing wealth is Baby Boomers um and

now anecdotally I take my kids

trick-or-treating at uh Halloween and we

go down a street that is big family

homes and you go knock on the doors and

it's all people over 65 right and living

in a big family home with empty spare

bedrooms we you think the average

American over 65 is living luxuriously

the average American over 65 so more

than half of the US economy is in the

hands of baby boomers right so they own

all the houses the the houses got bought

up cheap baby boomers still own those

houses to this day the big family homes

with multiple spare bedrooms are empty

um and now that creates this traffic jam

people my age my grandparents yeah they

all owned property

all four of

them died with

nothing um because that wealth which

they had in in property was was used in

equity release schemes they they it was

used in paying through their retirement

it was used in End of Life Care um do

you think when those old people die

young people today will be rich there is

half the economy held by baby burus it's

either going to be passed down or passed

into the age care industry or passed

into the but the issue of why we can't

get homes two things government

massively inflated the value of homes

through debt so they just in injected

like low interest rates that you

involved in who who is the debt to well

the debt is to anyone who can take out

Al loan because if a 0% interest rates

or 2% interest R you think it's the debt

is the ordinary families do you think

ordinary families are the creditors when

you say ordinary families you mean

bottom third so if your average British

or American family now has half a

million pounds of debt crit it's anyone

who could get their at that particular

time anyone who could get their hands on

a loan to buy a house but who has the

credit who has who is on the other side

of the debt so if the average British

family million P banking license does

the average British family have half

million pound of credit well a lot of

people have got a lot of equity in their

home now you think the average British

family is sitting on half a million

pound cash I'd love to look at the what

the actual number is but it's a couple

hundred thousand worth of equity 78 what

about the credit on the line credit on

the line owns the credit on the line in

mind it's disproportionately older

people so

think the average British old person is

sitting on million millions of pounds of

cash not millions of cash no equity well

someone is on the other side of just one

say the difference the difference is if

you inflate the value of a house you

don't have cash you have a house that's

worth a lot of money so 78% of home

ownership wealth is in the hands of

people over 65 now it's baby boomer

generation and they got a great gift

from the government which is the

government said we're going to just give

free loans away if someone previously

could have only afforded to take out a

200 Grand loan with low interest rates

they can afford a 300 Grand L do you

think it's okay that the average British

or American young person will never own

any wealth the issue is not whether it's

okay or not the issue is what do you do

about it I do you own wealth I've got

wealth yeah you own wealth but depends

what you call Wealth I do so do we three

multimillionaires do we think it's okay

that the average Brit or American young

person will never own any wealth that to

me that's because I don't think that's

okay to me that's not the debate is it

okay it's not well it it's not okay no

we want widespread would you rather that

the people who currently are

multi-millionaires would you rather that

all of the world was owned by their kids

I think that the way you see the world

as a Trader is that the world is a zero

sum game and that there's basically the

pi is a fixed pi and it gets sliced up

how fast is the growing now there's

something like this what's UK GDP growth

at the moment yeah it's not it's not

high right 1% how much did your wealth

grow in the last year uh exponentially

okay so if our weals my wealth probably

grew about 20% in the last year maybe 30

okay okay if our worlds are growing 30%

and the economy is growing at 1% where

is it coming from if it's not coming

from our viewers so I'll tell you where

my wealth comes from my wealth comes

from building technology companies and

the way it works is pretty weird which

is that I invent something out of my

head and I go to investors and I say to

the investors here's what we're going to

create and I give them a spreadsheet and

then they say we'll give you a couple

hundred grand to get started which is

called seed Capital but on paper makes

me worth a couple of million right but

there there's nothing has been taken

from anyone at this point uh the

investors have said okay we'll invest

some money then as the business succeeds

some more investors come along and they

say we'll give you a little bit more

money to keep growing it um and I'm

innovating something new and let's say

investors come in and give me a million

pounds and for 10% of the company and

the rest of the company's worth 9

million or $9 million right so I'm not

stealing something from the existing

economy I'm bringing something from

outside of the economy into the economy

um and my quote unquote net worth is

growing exponentially because investors

say we'll give you a little bit of money

that values the rest of the pie at a lot

of money but there's everyone's getting

richer in the in the wealth create

there's where there's wealth extraction

which is what Traders do they extract

from the existing economy um and they

bet on uh the economy and then there's

wealth creation which what entrepreneurs

do they come up with new ideas better

ways of doing things and they build

wealth so do you think the reason our

viewers the average Brit American are

getting poorer is because they don't

know how to create wealth no the reason

people are getting poorer is because

economic freedoms are being eroded when

we have high economic that with taxes

well anything that imp it could be

anything that impacts economic freedom

so uh taxes and regulations are big was

economic freedom higher in the 50s uh

50s was okay so 50s was a interesting

time we we were in food Russians in this

country till uh 1956 so we had 10 years

of food rations after the war um we had

a labor shortage uh because only really

men worked women hadn't entered the

workforce in Mass um there had been

three or 400,000 men killed in war so we

actually had this big labor shortage the

whole country needed to rebuild because

of the blitz had bombed it so we had

this huge need for economic activity and

not enough people to do it we only had

2% unemployment people who had had their

blown off were put to work at that

particular time so we had this boom this

postwar boom and we also had the postwar

baby boom which drove consumption uh and

then when we got to the 60s we had the

Roaring 60s or the um The Swinging 60s

right pretty amazing time in Britain and

Along Comes high taxes uh and they put

up the taxes massively at the end of the

60s um and it pretty much crashed the

economy one of the things that happened

so what were the tax rates in the 50s

well they went up as high as 80 to 90%

uh for the top for the top ear I think

it was in the 60s you sure about that I

think the 50s are unique what is the

answer feel like you they went up off

the wall they went up after the war well

in the US actually tax rates started got

before the war but also the size of

government as a percentage of GDP was

like 30% it was a tiny like we're we're

now 45% of the UK economy is government

spending we have got a mass who funds

that spending debt they the bank of

England allows them to print endless

amounts of debt which deflates Gary I

want to get your opinion here cuz you're

asking a lot of questions but I actually

don't know your opinion I just want to

know what Daniel thinks and I want our

viewers to be able to research Daniel's

opinions but how how do you disagree

with those opinions listen Daniel's a

businessman he's obviously a very

successful businessman you know I I've

not been any I'm not a businessman I'm

not going to pretend to be a businessman

I'm an economist I make money by being

right on the economy Daniel's a good

businessman and I'm right on the economy

you know it's a simple as that basically

you know I'm not a good businessman but

I've got 15 years of being right on this

on the economy and look and I know

you're probably a wealthy man you

probably don't want to pay high taxes

you probably don't want your kids to pay

high taxes but we exist in an economy

where wealth is being extracted out of

the middle class out of the working

class very very rapidly it's benefiting

people like the three of us at this

table it will benefit our kids you know

our kids will be rich their kids will be

poor and I just think we should be

honest with them capitalism's finished

we won well done Stephen well done

Daniel well done Gary it's over now our

kids will be rich their kids will be

poor they'll pay the tax taxes we won't

pay the taxes we'll avoid it I'll make

money betting on it year after year why

are we lying to them why are we lying to

them yeah I I think that's an overly

simplified view of things I don't an

overly simplified view of things that

has made me a multimillionaire yeah well

look entrepreneurs take bets on the

economy as well we take bets differently

um when we start a company we're betting

on how the econ the average British and

American worker at the 50th percentile

do you think their kids will be richer

than they are it depends if we have

economic freedom or not right we're

going to have a split test on this right

we're going to have a split test we're

going to have the UK seems like we're

going to have more taxes more

regulations and it seems like the us is

going to have less taxes and less

regulations here's what I've noticed

I've noticed that places like Singapore

that have small governments um have got

widespread affluence there's not a lot

of poverty in Singapore yeah except for

the cleaners living in the closets yeah

you know uh look but we don't count them

in the statistics just like we don't

count our viewers that that's not

widespread in well there's a lot of

people W I've seen them in the closets

I've seen them in the closets there are

there are some but they're not

singaporeans well also you only count

the rich ones look the the also the

issue is is that they've come from even

worse conditions in many cases people

mve to Singapore for an increase in

lifestyle right the um you could take

Ireland or Switzerland right

economically free places Ireland was

economically in a disaster in think the

average Irish person lives well well the

their

economy their economy almost collapsed

in 2011 and they went down the road of

lower taxes lower regulations and they

attracted all sorts of businesses into

the economy and do you think that works

well for the average Irishman who

doesn't own a home in Dublin the the if

you measure everything by Home Ownership

I'm measuring people by the average I

want to know what the average man or

woman today lives that by the way I I'm

also Furious about the home ownership

thing everyone is um I think it's

utterly ridiculous the way like the idea

that homes are now worth 10 times the

average wage all of that difference is I

blame government for that uh I blame

high taxes where they've because of high

taxes they can take out more debt they

can then inflate the economy do you

think if we shrink the government if we

start to slash government spending do

you think that would improve living

conditions well the UK government is 45%

of the economy like that's a huge

government it's think using additions

will increase in the next few years

because we have US Government now that's

planning to slash the US government well

that's what the US voters have asked for

do you think it would improve living

conditions uh do I think it'll improve

the average American if they're smaller

government yeah I trust market so you

think the average US American will be

rich in years than the here what I trust

I trust economic freedom if people have

freedom they create better decisions for

their own life there's two ways to make

decisions right there's two ways you

have freedom I got less freedom than I

did when I ared just because my sister

can't pay the rent is that freedom the

if you're living in a country she can't

to live in the city that she was born in

I I agree you and I agree on the problem

you keep bringing back to the problem I

keep bringing it back to people because

the people who watch We're millionaires

okay the people who watch us are mostly

not

millionaires is life going to get better

for them they life will get better if

you are connected to the most productive

parts of the economy um if you pretend

that it's 1955 and you recreate the

postwar era conditions if you try to go

back to 1955 I don't think that's going

to work so so let me ask on that then

the point about if you're connected to

the most productive parts of the economy

I was quite um quite surprised when I

was doing some research on this to find

that there's quite big differences

between the UK and the US in terms of

GDP growth in Q4 2024 the US economy

grew by 6% while the UK growth was 0.1%

so they're doing significantly better in

that regard US GDP per head stands at

$82,000 per head whereas the UK stands

at $49,000 per head and stock market

performance which is an indication of I

guess what ever Rose by 300% in the US

whereas the footsy 100 declined by 20%

Which is the UK stock market

productivity growth since 2018

productivity increased by 30% in the

United States which has outpaced the the

UK and lastly income growth since 2007

American income per head has increased

by 72% while it has decreased in by 2%

in the UK in dollar terms so they seem

to be doing better from if you just look

at the economy um why is that is that

because they lean more into technology

and Innovation and Entrepreneurship and

is it because of the things you were

saying earlier about their attitude

towards the Govern like reduced

government spending versus tax the rich

why I'm Keen to hear Gary's view on this

because I understand yours because

you've just said it yeah I think these

are great statistics um and of course

the US has a strong reput reputation for

being very free markets and being very

small states in the last 5 years 10

years 15 years

we've had a UK government that has been

aggressively slashing the state and the

US State's bigger than ever it's 45% of

the economy and the us we had a

government in the last four years which

has been running a massive massive

deficit so in that period of

time it appears the government which has

been aggressively increasing its deficit

has massively overperformed the

government which has been aggressively

slashing the

state that's what it looks to be from

the last I mean b Joe Biden in

enormously increased the deficit

enormously and the conservatives were

austerity government for 14 years which

one seems to have given the better

numbers well I mean there were austerity

in name only they went from 30% uh the

state was 30% of GDP to 45% of

government services haveed now they're

the government is terrible at doing most

things that's the problem you you you

don't want you don't think that spending

on government service has been slashed

let me let me zoom out a little you

think the police spending has been

slashed OH police spending is definitely

do you know where it ends up it ends up

with like big corporates uh big

Consulting who get paid $50 million to

produce a report to tell government some

thing right all of these big I won't

name names but all the big consulting

firms they're all blood suckers to

government they they know that the money

is in the government and they set up

business models to extract that money

from government uh and it also is in the

financial trading side of things the one

of the issues that we've got right and

this is a big big issue as well cuz you

care about wealth inequality one of the

biggest issues I see is that during the

pandemic we all learned to work remotely

and remotor became the norm and what I

see at the moment is huge amounts of

what would have been normal British jobs

are going to the Philippines going to

India going to uh Vietnam people who

work remotely now we now have a thousand

millionaires a month leaving to go to

Dubai we have 120,000 British people

living in Dubai uh in in that economy

the world's become incredibly mobile and

one of the things that's happening is

that what would have previously been

good British jobs uh are getting moved

overseas to lower cost countries and

that's technology that drives that wedge

the US is very smart in that they've

built a technology Powerhouse and the UK

has completely lost our technology

industry our tech industry is in Decline

same same across Europe China and the us

know that the game is Tech and they've

basically pulling all the tech company

into the into their uh borders and

what's happening a lot is the erosion of

good jobs and the erosion of of just

normal well-paying uh jobs because they

they're going and it's a bit of a

self-fulfilling Loop that the more we

lose millionaires the tax burden falls

on everyone else so they put the taxes

up and then the millionaires say oh the

taxes are too high so they leave um I've

watched some of the most incredible

entrepreneurs that you would want here

that would employ your sister at a high

rate um and they've picked up and left

cuz the taxes are too high so you saying

we should tax working people less well

the the the overall government has to be

smaller uh you can't whoever what do you

want to cut in the government if you uh

yeah I mean you'd have to Child Services

we'd have to no police no education NHS

all I know is this pensions you go to

Switzerland they SP single mothers 25%

disabled benefits what do you want to

cut hold up all I know is in Switzerland

I tell you what I want the government is

TA on those entrepreneurs and raise the

taxes on the billionaires because I

worked my tits off how many billionaires

are in the UK there's a lot of

billionaires in the UK 150 yeah so tax

them more what do they pay listen I went

my tits off and I paid it was 50% top

rate tax 50% top rate tax plus National

Insurance 60% million to bring my family

out of poverty at the same time the Duke

of Westminster inherited 10 billion and

paid nothing do you think that's fair

that's not true okay why is it not true

because the Duke of Westminster is one

of the highest tax payers in the country

what does he pay well on the trust the

groer estate uh they don't pay

inheritance tax because trusts can't die

they pay something called periodic taxes

which how much 6% every 10 years 6% so

they pay 0.6% so I paid 16% and this guy

pays 0.6% apples with apples inheritance

tax is 40% across the course of your

life if a trust is uh if a person lives

who owns a trust for 70 years then 6%

time 7 would be 42 so they actually pay

more so he pays 0.6% a year Pro 0.6%

that would be the same as what percent

did I pay per no no no but that's 60% so

you're saying I pay what 60 of a 0.6

what 100 times the tax not comparing

apples with apples wait why is it not

apples with apples this guy pays 0.6% a

year I paid 60% a year that's

inheritance tax I paid that 60% every

year Daniel every year I paid you're pay

income tax so why have I du P more than

the Duke of Westminster pays income tax

he probably he probably makes your bill

blush yeah think can pay his income tax

yeah well if he's going to live he has

to withdraw money to have his income he

also let me give you a list of all the

taxes he would pay he'd pay income tax

corporate tax he'd pay stamp Duty when

he buys a building he pays uh uh any of

the other taxes vat when he spends money

all the same taxes apply to a duuk as

they apply to anybody else so you think

he pays income tax on on the income on

that any income he draws okay well our

viewers can research whether he pays

income tax on his income because I don't

think he does

it's in a trust but the only difference

with the trust versus income is that the

trust pays periodic tax versus

inheritance tax 0.6% but we're only

talking inherit that that's just one

type of tax you think he's paying 60% on

his income he's one of the highest

taxpayers in the UK I'm not like his big

fan club but the truth is he's one of

the highest taxpayers in the UK um he's

one of the biggest Employers in the UK

he's one of the like one of the biggest

land owners in the UK land owners in the

UK right uh so uh the the issue is is

does he pay tax all the same taxes that

apply to you apply to him uh and if you

want to set up a trust you can also pay

periodic taxes as well um which would be

on top of all the other taxes so what

would you say but it's just not true

that he doesn't pay tax no what would

you say this guy has inherit 1010

million P so he's worth 10 billion PS

what would you say will be the total

amount of tax he will pay in his

lifetime well I know that just the

smallest if I make 10 million I pay 60%

just one sec you're not you're talking

about income versus the transfer of an

estate so why why is it that the be 10

million P just you're comparing your

income yeah versus the amount he

inherited which is not a fair thing

that's not income that's his income he

inheritance is not income so wait wait

wait wait wait wa so if I get given1

billion I don't pay any tax but if I

work for10 billion I pay 60% well if you

inherit this is the tax system that you

want you'll end up in a system where the

kids of the richual own everything

that's what I'm saying that's what I'm

saying and that's fun because that's our

kids you're not telling the truth about

his let's support it let's have a tax

system where your kids and my kids and

Steven's kids are multimillionaires and

these guys out there can't afford to

feed their kids and put the heat in

that's not what I'm saying but that's

what you will get that is what you will

get that's listen that's what I'm

betting on that's fine because I'll make

money in the markets it's fine and

you'll make money and you'll make money

it's our viewers who will be poor and

that's fine that's fine that's fine for

us let's let's explore the other

alternative right so let's say tax the

rich right so let's play the game of tax

the rich tax the owners not the workers

the owners

so the issue that we have with the rich

is that is the number one most valuable

Assets in the economy now in tangible

assets so there's this chart called the

S&P 500 of the 500 richest countries in

the country uh in the world in the US

sorry um in

1970s 75% of the value of the S&P 500

was physical assets like property um and

today it's less than 10% uh it's closer

to 5% you think that housing is not

particularly important just just let's

stick stick with what I'm saying okay

the the the PowerHouse the engine room

of the economy is digital assets and

that's reflected in uh the S&P 500 for

example which is 95% intangible assets

one of the issues that we have is that

the richest people are completely mobile

now so they can be absolutely anywhere

in the world so if you come up with this

idea of let's tax richest people 1% if a

tiny proportion of them leave we're all

in trouble so this really rich guys

M what do they own companies and why are

those companies worth money because

investors say they are and where do the

revenues come from globally okay the

issue is is that these companies operate

globally now so take my company for

example my company has 8,000 customers

in 150 countries okay we could be

anywhere if you P what country is your

biggest single Revenue Source probably

the US now let's say you move to Cayman

Island and the US says we're going to

tax your Revenue at point of sale M what

can you do well that's different right

because that's not taxing billionaires

that's taxing

companies see when you say tax the rich

on their wealth yeah that's different to

saying tax companies a consumption tax

oh but you just said the're Rich owned

companies you said that's what they own

yeah but you're saying how do you tax

them right so do they do you tax their

wealth which is what they own or do you

tax the companies where they trade um

typically consumption taxes get passed

on to Consumers it's not consumption tax

it's the tax on the ownership yeah but

if you simply say when you're doing

revenues then that's a consumption we

start to tax if we start to taxit by the

way I'm not exactly against you on on

companies I think it's disgusting that a

British company can can take out a

Facebook ad to sell to a British

consumer a British product and Facebook

pretends to be in Ireland on that

transaction um and Amazon you can buy

something on Amazon in Britain from a

British supplier from a British

warehouse and Amazon pretends to be in

Luxembourg in that situation and that

sucks right like that that does not seem

fair and it strikes me as very strange

that the government is okay with that

right now the government is chasing down

moms and dads who sell a few things on

eBay uh and chasing them for taxes but

they don't talk to eBay uh they they

they're paranoid about someone doing a

little bit of a side hustle on Facebook

but Facebook's fine to pretend to be an

Ireland so I don't agree with all of all

of that right like I think where missing

some serious tricks here but the idea

with taxing billionaires at wealth

billionaires will just leave they just

get up and leave and and not just

billionaires but what the billionaires

own what the billionaires own companies

and where do companies get their money

from revenues and where do the revenues

come from purchasing people purchasing

where do those people live all over the

world we can tax them at that point

that's consumption tax this is the thing

that's a consumption tax no it's not

it's V is a tax on Revenue tax these

guys on profits based on where the

revenues come from so it's very easy to

move profits internationally see Steven

had a uh Starbucks cup when he buys that

Starbucks yeah it's bought from a

British company who licenses the

Starbucks logo from Luxembourg or

somewhere like that so 15% so here we

are saying oh we're going to tax their

profits they say ah I wish we were

profitable sorry unfortunately we had to

do that licensing deal with that

International I know how profit shifting

works okay so are you you think are you

telling

me compan selling to the UK the US

enormous amount of of profit in the US

and they turn around and say actually

our profit is not in the US the

difference you think the US is in is is

incapable of going and looking if that's

seeing where they really where the

profit is I'm not saying that you can't

do this I'm saying that the benefits of

doing it it's so hard to tax wealth for

example or it's so hard to tax uh

Millionaires and billionaires that that

you end up cutting off your nose despite

your face um for every like if we

Britain for example and we build a brand

which is that we're anti- wealth we

don't want you to ever have more than 10

million if you've got more than 10

million we punish you every young

entrepreneur who comes to me and says

dan do you think I should start a

company here in this country I'm going

to say well if you do uh they'll take it

as soon as you start to make it they'll

take it as soon as if you're successful

if you get investment they're going to

tax you at your wealth if you sell the

company they're going to take it off you

I'm going to basically say to that young

entrepreneur don't build your business

in brit go start it somewhere that

they're more proactive and positive

towards entrepreneurs are we seeing that

now with this they call it the

millionaire Exodus which is for people

that don't know the UK has set to lose

the greatest proportion of millionaires

in the world um this Parliament I'll put

a graph on the screen which is this one

here this one here and that little red

line here is US losing all of our

millionaires at the moment and in 2024

it's an estimated that 10,800 high net

worth individuals left the UK which is

57% increase from the previous year

which means that 1 millionaire is

departing every 45 minutes the UK

millionaire Exodus is equal to losing

530,000 average taxpayers and another

stat the top 10% of earners in the US

account for nearly half of all consumer

spending the top 1% of income taxpayers

in the UK are projected to contribute

about 30% of total income tax from 2024

to

2025 why are all these millionaires

running away well it's not because

they're taxing their world because we

don't have any wealth taxes why why do

you think they're leaving I think the

reason they're leaving is because the UK

economy is is really really weak because

the UK consumer is really really weak

because you've absolutely crushed the

spending power of your average British

family your average British family can

barely afford to feed the kids and turn

the heating on so why are you going to

start a business here when the customers

are absolutely impoverished look it

corresponds with a new tax that we

brought in which was um we ended the

non-dom scheme so the non-dom scheme

basically said if you're living in the

UK but you've got businesses all over

the world uh then we only tax you on

what you've got in the UK um and if you

die in the UK uh we'll only tax you on

your UK assets for inheritance tax if

you're a non-dom uh but if you die in

the UK and you've got uh wealth in India

once that nonon scheme ended they

basically said we will tax you on

everything globally if you're an

economic uh if you're a tax resident in

the UK everything you've got globally we

want 40% of it so unfortunately every

wealth manager contacted their clients

and said you can't stay here you're

going to have to get out um it's it's

gotten really bad a th000 people a month

are leaving and in the UK 1% of people

pay 30% of the taxes 10% of people pay

60% of the taxes and you imagine if

we're sitting out at dinner and there's

10 of us out to dinner and one person

says hey I've got this I get I'll get

60% of the bill tonight we say to them

no it should be 70% should be 80% and

they say you know what I'll get up and

leave so they leave everyone else's bill

just doubled so what's going to happen

is if we drive the millionaires out of

this country everyone every ordinary

normal person who pays 10 grand a year

in tax will now have to pay 20 grand a

year in tax so the reason they left

because we used to allow them to not pay

tax and we Ta on their Global incomes on

their Global isn't it a bit more like if

we were 10 of us at dinner and there was

one guy who came on to dinner on the

condition he wouldn't pay their leaves

because these guys weren't paying tax

anyway the reason they left is because

they weren't paying tax it's like saying

um it's like saying hey I'll pay 60% of

this table and they say at the table hey

wait a second we also want you to pay

for everything that's happening at other

restaurants as well isn't it a bit more

like these guys we're stretching on a

condition you you yourself said the

reason why they left is because we let

them live here on the condition that

they didn't have to pay taxes on their

Global yeah taxes matter right so why

why is everyone going to Dubai Dubai

they're going there because there's no

tax these guys they live in Dubai their

money comes from the West they are

making money from the West while your

average Western ordinary person watching

this show now cannot afford to buy a

house cannot afford to have a family we

can tax those revenues at the point of

sale why do we allow these it's a called

a consumption tax no it's not it's a tax

on tax on profit not tax on consumption

you just said at point of sale which

means it's a consumption tax based on

the profits you look at how much profit

they where the profits exactly it's not

consumption tax what I'm saying so no so

if you tax profits yeah right then those

profits have to accumulate in that

country and because of the digital

ecosystem that we now have the world we

now live in I can lease the database off

of my company in Luxembourg I can uh

license the I can license my logo from

understand how profit

shifting listen these guys are not

gandal you just say we don't accept

profit shifting we don't need to accept

profit shifting China does not accept

profit shifting we did not accept profit

shifting 50 years ago we do not have to

accept profit shifting but you have a

government class who are extremely

wealthy and a media class are extremely

wealthy saying it's impossible to tax

rich people and I would like to say I

will agree 100% it is difficult to tax

rich people it is very very very

difficult to tax rich people I don't I

don't come here saying I want to tax

rich people because it's easy I know

it's hard I know probably I'm going to

lose I know our viewers kids will live

in Desperate poverty I know that I do

this because it is hard if we are a

country which says to ourselves we don't

try and do things which are necessary to

keep our kids out of poverty because

they are hard then our kids will live in

poverty I don't need to be here I'm a

multimillionaire just like you I could

be in the Philippines drinking panac

laders I come in here because I come

from a poor background and it's ordinary

families like my family like the kids I

grew up with whose kids are going to be

in poverty it's difficult but it is

necessary sometimes we have to do things

not because they're easy but because

they are hard that is what makes a rich

country rich and that is what protects

ordinary people listen our grandparents

lived in poverty did they say let's not

change it because it's hard no they

didn't they fought and they demanded

they demanded Health Care education

housing food and they got it they got it

that's why my parents could live a good

quality life they got those things they

got those things and they were aware

that in order to do that you could not

allow the super rich who have been

living lives of luxury for hundreds and

hundreds of years to eat everything

while ordinary families couldn't afford

to feed their kids I know it's difficult

I know it's difficult and I know I'm

probably going to lose I know that I

know I'm probably going to lose and that

means our viewers will be poor but I do

it anyway because I do not want this

country that I grew up in to fall into

desperate poverty I agree with you on

the passion and I agree with you on the

problem I don't agree with you on the

solution because in 2019 we be kids in

2020 and that's not what I'm saying in

2020 we made a decision globally to shut

down the economy and we taught everyone

that they can live and work from

anywhere the biggest threat to

everything you're saying is remote

working the fact that we can live and

work work from anywhere our grandparents

their boss if their boss owned a company

that company had to physically be in the

country and the boss had to physically

be in the country if we look at today

there are plenty of fitness trainers who

work for a gym and the owner of that gym

is somewhere overseas plenty of people

work in live work in a restaurant and

the owner of the restaurant lives

overseas you can live in you can run a

business from anywhere in the world

right now so the problem that we face is

that you're describing on one hand you

say we need to tax it at the point of

sale which is a consumption tax and not

tax on profit okay and then you say a

tax on profit and then you say oh but

then we'll stop profit shifting by the

way I'm also actually all for this idea

of stopping profit I I've already said I

think it's utterly ridiculous the way

that many of these global companies are

treated and if we don't stop that then

all the money just flows out to the tech

companies um so I'm I'm with you on that

but when you say tax the rich the actual

people who own the companies those

people can be anywhere right now so but

but their revenues can't their customers

their customers are where their

customers are their customers are where

their customers are listen Amazon

doesn't pay any UK tax doesn't pay any

us tax where are the customers in the UK

and Us in UK US do you really think it's

impossible for us to tax that well

you're talking about taxing people at 10

million plus right so this is a lot of

startup entrepreneurs Jeff Bez is a lot

more than 10 million jez Jeff worth a

lot more than you talk about anyone

above 10 million is on your radar you

don't want people worth 11 million

pounds we pay more I'm not just talk

it's not that Dan if you you you're

worth more than 10 million pounds so if

we tax people

on as Gary says that have more than 10

million what are your options to avoid

say if your objective was to avoid that

what options do you have look if if my

objective was to avoid it I pass a board

resolution that we're moving the head

office somewhere else yeah um we move

the intellectual property somewhere else

I pick up and move my family somewhere

else and within about a week or two

we've got a we work office somewhere

else I've got a new house on Airbnb

somewhere else and I cut ties with the

UK and I'm non- tax resident here and I

can I have a digital business I can

literally make my head office anywhere

in the world if there was a particular

country that turned hostile towards uh

our operations they not have to withdraw

service from that thing you know so that

that's possible but it's unlikely that

that would actually happen but

ultimately if I choose to get up and

leave then I get up and leave now the

the the bigger issue is would I have

even come here in the first place and

then there's another issue and here's

the other issue Gary for you you've just

had 750,000 subscribers to your YouTube

channel 820 it's 8:20 right so it's

going up fast I could have one of my

analysts at a consulting company do

valuation of your brand and do valuation

of your YouTube channel we could say

this is a fast growth media company and

it's worth 11 million right so we could

come up with a forecast and a projection

and we say Gary's economics is actually

a new Fast growth media brand it's worth

11 million now your channel now you have

to pay 100 Grand a year in extra taxes

because you're a millionaire sorry 1% on

wealth above 10 million on 11 million is

going to be 10 grand taxes oh you're

saying only on the part above that's how

taxes work so it's not on everything

it's okay so it's a it's a marginal tax

that's how taxes work it's so okay so

but is it fair that like who gets to

decide what wealth Is wealth and what

it's worth because wealth let's just hit

me out wealth is a a technical term for

unrealized gains right it's not real uh

you know someone buys a house for 20

grand and it's worth 200 Grand uh

they've still got the same house but now

they've got wealth um if someone starts

a business and a tiny little seed

investor puts in a little angel

investment uh now they've got wealth on

paper but who gets to say what is wealth

um like for

example if you introduce wealth taxes

theoretically that will actually reduce

the value of wealth of things anyway

because things in inside that economy

are now subject to a disadvantage so

therefore investors will be unlikely to

invest in them to a certain point and

also people start cutting and dodging

and weaving and ducking and weaving so

they say oh our UK operations worth 10

million so we're now going to start a

second company over in some other

country and make sure that that's where

the wealth accumulates so it's

incredibly difficult because it is just

unrealized gains I know I know it's

difficult yeah I know I know these guys

have the best accountants I I know it's

difficult I know so what if there was an

easier solution if there was an easier

solution I would support that you know

what I mean it's called it's called

economic freedom the economic freedom

index okay well just tell the viewers

that give them more economic freedom and

then they'll be rich yeah so this this

diagram here basically says the most

free countries have less than 10%

poverty in fact less than 7% poverty as

soon as you reduce economic freedom it

jumps to 30% poverty you reduce economic

freedom again and it jumps up to huge

huge amounts of poverty so the these

countries here are the least

economically free and these countries

are the most economically free the

countries that get in the way of your

economic freedom have more poverty and

the countries that let people make

decisions for their own life what you're

saying is if the governments of our

countries cut taxes on us the three

multimillionaire sitting at this table

that will improve the lives of the

ordinary British and American give a

real life example to feed their kids

I'll give you a real life example uh I

know of a company that was going to give

pay Rises to its employees and then

National Insurance went up and instead

of National Insurance is a tax on

employment yeah I'm saying to reduce

that I'm saying to reduce tax on I want

your viewers the viewers here to be

paying less tax while multimillionaires

pay more tax good in theory but of if

you could tax rich people 1% of their

wealth above 10 million uh I did a back

of a napkin cap calculation you might be

able to get 20 billion yeah right that's

if they don't leave that's if they don't

respond to it if they just happily pay

it you get 20 billion that's less than a

week worth of current government

spending

so the government's out of control 1.2

trillion a year of government spending

is now what they spend okay so let's cut

that get that 20 billion and cut the

taxes for the viewers cut their income

tax so that works out about 250 a year

okay so let's do more let's make it 60

billion so then you tax 3% above wealth

yeah do that right and then you also

bring it down this is what governments

do make five or six yeah and then and

that's what they did that's what they

did in the second world war and that's

why my dad could afford a house actually

that's not why you could afford a house

okay well who's buy if Ordinary People

are losing their houses and the wealth

which they are yeah and we're getting

richer yeah who is it who is now owning

the houses if it is not us the

government used to own the houses and

then they sold the government wealth is

collapsing government wealth is

collapsing but what they did is they

sold the houses to the people okay but

but ordinary middle is also you can only

do that once and they did it for the

baby so you think it's our viewers who

have got my houses now who where is the

wealth going Daniel where is the wealth

going who has the wealth now who is

getting rich who is getting the wealth

that is lost by our viewers I'll tell

you where the biggest amounts of money

are going the biggest amounts of money

uh since the pandemic uh 11 trillion

went just to the value of seven

companies that own te technology so the

biggest seven companies in the USA 11

trillion has and you don't want their

billionaire owners to pay more tax well

would that help the UK well if you use

that money to reduce tax on working

people then it it would help yeah they

own shares in the USA they're US

citizens so that doesn't help us here

but it will help the American Consumer

and then we can export the American

Consumer and it will mean the American

Consumer has money and then it will show

British people how much you can achieve

by taxing Super Rich we can raise tax on

our Super Rich here and then what I want

is these guys to be taxed so much that

they start to sell assets and then

ordinary British people can buy assets

again because what I want is our viewers

to be able to own things to be able to

own their own homes I when I hear this

um I admissibly don't know as much about

these issues as you guys do but when I

hear that there's these seven tech

companies in the US my brain goes can't

we have one here yeah yeah can't we

start and then so my brain goes how what

conditions do we have to create ones

that we had yeah what conditions do we

have to create to have one of those

seven tech companies here especially in

this sort of AI World we're heading

towards where when I was reading through

the stats most of the investment in AI

which is going to be hugely

destabilizing across every industry from

driving to to any form of knowledge work

even podcasting I can play your podcast

now yeah which sounds exactly like me

which has a 4.6 star rating on Apple

which was written by AI in my voice

published by AI Wild and the and who's

acing the value there well it's a

company in America called 11 labs and

it's bloody open Ai and I why why can't

we have those companies here we need

them here because China and the US are

dominating this next

Revolution um and I I worry as a

bystander that if we don't create

entrepreneurship friendly environments

here we're going to we are going to

become Indian yeah M so you if you want

businesses that to thrive you don't need

just a good environment for

entrepreneurs you also need people to

have money that they can spend MH and we

are in a country where

increasingly most of the people out

there have almost nothing left over at

the end of the month they can barely pay

the bills those companies are selling

globally right so they don't need any

particular company to do well they just

they sell to anywhere so like open AI

chat GPT we're all using that Bloody

product and pay our 20 $30 a month yeah

where do they actually get their money

from right they get their money from

selling data to to to the rich right my

point was making the environment more

friendly for entrepreneurs because when

I start a company I am at a I can't

explain the disadvantage I'm at at the

moment if I start that kind of company

here in the UK there's no investors and

then all the talent seems to flock over

to San Francisco so the the guys that

built the British guys that built an AI

company called fixer which I was going

to invest in all British Lads from

London they went over to San Francisco

they're like 25y olds they've just

raised at a 60 million valuation they're

in this room this building in San

Francisco full of entrepreneurs and

they're pumping knowledge and capital

into this room with all due respect

Stephen you're not a great example for

the fact that it's impossible to start a

successful online brand in the UK facts

um but I also realized that the problem

of of but he started when things were

different but I I also realized I don't

like using personal examples because

there's a huge amount of privilege and

okay is there a chat gbt in Germany No

is there a chat gbt in in France no is

there a chat GPT in Australia no no is

there a chat GPT in ja it's China and

one sec SEC yeah exactly what you have

here is an extremely low labor extremely

high Capital model which employs

extremely few people across the entire

world that is focused in basically two

cities yeah good luck competing with

that H how do we create an environment

where the UK can start to build some of

these companies which are going to

capitalize on this next technological

Revolution how if you were prime

minister what would you do I think you

need to look realistically about what

companies do we have a chance of growing

you know I'm not an expert in AI but I

think trying to compete with San

Francisco in London would will probably

not work why try try and do it you know

try and do it and listen I know that you

can get a lot of likes saying let's just

invest in AI let's just invest only one

city in the world outside of China has

Managed IT China has Managed IT by

basically State capitalism you know this

is very similar in a sense to what we

had with micro Electronics in Japan in

the 8S right when you have a new

industry especially these industries

which are very Capital intense and don't

employ many people you get a first move

Advantage they tend to win eventually

often they get undercut by cheaper

Rivals and that does happen you know

that does happen and you might stand in

AI I don't think AI is going to become a

massive massive employer of course you

know a lot of countries are going to be

like because basically it sounds good

we're going to invest in I we're going

to invest in AI personally I think we

should be looking at what does the

British person need you know we live in

a country where the housing stock is

falling apart if if we say AI when we

talk about AI I think we're actually

talking about technology because even a

podcast like a podcast like this you

don't think this of this as an AI

company but actually now the editing

process the scripting process the

transcription process even YouTube

itself is an AI company so it's it's

really technology we're speaking about

here and I'm wondering why we can't

create a better environment in the UK to

start launching and building some of

these technology companies we've even

seen I think we should and I think we

should be looking we should be look at

reducing taxes on people who who work

and make money this is what I've been

saying for the whole time what about

people what about people who start

companies

yeah we should reduce their taxes on the

income that they make but then if they

start owning A50 million pound company

are you telling me if you come to me and

I say all right you want to start a

company we we tax you very very little

on a company that you start if that

company becomes worth 20 30 40 million

quid then we're going to start taxing

you you're going to come and say to me

oh no sorry 50 million is not enough for

me so can I ask a question on that so um

my company was was valued at x 50

whatever 100 Millions um congratulations

I still had because I hadn't had an exit

event yeah I still had 101,000 20,000 in

my bank account are you saying at the

point when I sell the company or are you

saying just because I have shares from

the company I think you can structure it

a number of ways you can structure a

number of ways my preferred way is to

stop people from hoarding enormous a of

wealth for enormous amounts of time

that's my that's basically my preferred

method there's also the wealth tax

method there's also capital gains as a

method there's a lot of different ways

it there's a lot of different ways but

you have to deal with the problem of if

you do not do not tax very wealthy

individuals and very wealthy families

their share of the pie will obviously

goow over time and they will and they

are as we are watching squeezing our

ordinary families you have to deal with

that my friend sold his company in the

UK it's a company everybody knows um and

he I remember him saying to me at the

time it was in the middle of the

pandemic he got this big exit event I

think he'd made 300 million and he goes

I'm off I go where you going he goes I'm

going to go to Dubai in Monaco and live

between the two and I I said explain to

me why he goes well the amount of tax

I'd have to pay in the UK is equivalent

to me paying 20 million rent in the UK

for the next six or seven years which

he'd have to stay here for so he he went

and he pops back in every now and then

but it meant that he could keep that 150

million whatever tax he would pay never

had to pay it to the UK is living this

highflying life now in Dubai drops into

Monaco every now and then um and I

remember him saying to me well Steve I'd

have to pay 20 million rent a year to

live here and he went on to say the UK

product is just isn't worth it he goes

crime I'm going to get my Rolex robbed

off me he goes um the healthare system

isn't the best the education system

isn't necessarily the best and the

particular one was crime which is I'll

get I'll get i'll get mugged walking

through yeah London streets Stephen if

you allow British people who own 300

million pound of British assets to

technically live in Monaco and not pay

tax then you will get crime and you will

have dirty streets and you will have a

bad Health Care system and you will have

education because if you give all of the

wealth to a group of people who do not

tax there will be nothing left to

provide things like healthcare and

education for ordinary people it's not

unconnected these people are not

technically living there they're moving

out my friends have moved out of the

country they don't come back to the UK

they've left and they leave with their

they built a company here they glob P

tax they typically build globally

business it's not that they P it was a

global they don't pay no tax they pay

extortionate amounts of tax right anyone

who's here is paying extraordinary taxes

more than they've ever paid before 1%

pays 30% 10% pays 60% of 1 trillion a

year gu 300 million how much tax Rec

he's paid in his life I have no idea I

have no idea his business was Global

that his biggest customer was the US

it's I pay 60% and our viewers will pay

30 40 50% do you think it's fair that

your 300 million guy pays his two or

three I have no idea what he pays well

it sounds like he didn't pay 50% well he

dashed when before he got the tax bill

but why did we allow it why did we allow

I I'm not allowed to not pay my tax what

could you have done to you are allowed

to when you were in Japan you wouldn't

have paid UK taxes

yeah because I was working in Japan and

I pay Japanese taxes because you're

living in Japan this is the thing people

can live wherever they want now so but

we're talking about this is I think we

should stop obfuscating tax on people's

work from tax on the ass they uh so I'm

talking about entrepreneurs work

generates wealth so when if I if I ear a

billion pound of British houses yeah and

then I say I live in Dubai yeah and I'm

getting the rent on a billion pounds of

houses which would probably be something

like like that's going to be something

like 50 million a year so I'm getting 60

50 60 million a year of rent from

British people yeah and that gets paid

to me from British people yeah and I pay

and I don't pay tax I live in Dubai do

you think that's fair no all right so

let's change that let's let's make

people pay tax on on their world

regardless where they live yeah the

question would be though how would you

tax people right and how would you

actually structure it because regardless

of what you feel like is fair this is

the thing it's not about fairness it's

about what you can pragmatic and

practically do in the modern economy you

might say oh I actually like for example

if we said what's fair a lot of people

would say a flat tax is fair you make

one pound you pay 20% you make a million

pounds you pay 20% make 100 million

pounds you pay 20% so a lot of people

would say the fairest tax system would

just be a flat tax on everything right

that would be a fair thing it's

pragmatically can you do it is it

actually good for society should people

be excluded from that so it's not about

fairness it's about pragmatically what

can you get away with all right well

pragmatically what we can get away with

is desperate poverty for our viewers

kids if you want to have can we zoom out