The B administration just like really

screwed up our immigration policy in a

profoundly dangerous way. But

>> even if you agree that immigration is a

problem, it seems division is the most

compelling narrative for politicians. I

remember this particular quote about the

black community where he said,

>> "What do you have to lose?

>> I'm a black man. I feel like I've got

things to lose." And my concern is when

the western narrative is that it's the

brown people that are the reason that

your life is hard or like Mexicans and

murderers. If I heard that from my

political leaders, it's conceivable that

I might be angry at my neighbor even

though they've done nothing.

>> But let let me just say very often what

the president is accused of saying, he

didn't say it or there was much greater

context.

>> You witness but but I think well the

president I certainly have way different

styles. But Donald Trump is much

different as a human being than the

media makes him out to be.

>> But back in 2016, there was a private

message between you and a roommate where

you said Trump was either a cynical

or America's Hitler. How do you

go from that position to vice president

of the same person? What what is that

journey?

>> A crazy journey, man. But look, I

thought Donald Trump would be a failed

president. He was not. I thought that

America's institutions were

fundamentally functioning. They were

not. You always have to be able to

acknowledge when you're right and when

you're wrong. Like he's so

non-conventional in the way that he does

everything that things that were

previously unimaginable are actually on

the table. This peace deal with Iran,

for example. But there's been lots of

false deals.

>> Well, this one's real. So,

>> and Israel. Trump called Netanyahu a

very difficult guy. What does Netanyahu

want?

>> I don't know. Well, what I would say is

that we're different countries with

different interests.

>> Do you trust them?

>> I don't really trust anybody. Having

seen the president of United States

operate, I feel quite confident that

they are the junior partner. We're the

senior partner. We are the world's

superpower.

>> I'm going to take a little bit of a hard

turn. Um, do you think aliens could be

real?

>> I do.

>> Mr. Vice President, I had no idea about

your earliest context.

>> Mhm.

>> And it has informed what I've then seen

from you later as an adult, but can you

take me back?

>> The emotion's still right on the surface

for you.

>> Very much so.

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Mr. Vice President,

I have your book here. Okay.

And it says, "Of all the things that I

hated about my childhood, nothing

compared to the revolving door of father

figures. I hated the disruption. And I

hated how often these boyfriends would

walk out of my life just as I began to

like them."

I always think to understand the people

that are sat in front of me, you have to

take get a picture of their early

context.

>> Sure.

>> And I had no idea about your earliest

context. and it it has in some respects

informed what I've then seen from you

later as an adult. But can you take me

back to your context and explain that

quote for me?

>> Yeah. So, um I I was raised in very

working-ass town, very working-ass

family. You know, this is a photo of me

when I was a little kid here. And my

family, like a lot of other families in

similar circumstances, we struggled. We

struggled to adapt to middle class life.

Yeah. This is my sister and my

grandfather. It's interesting. My my my

grandfather had very low formal

education. and he graduated from high

school. My grandmother actually left

school when she was 13. Very religious

people, particularly my grandmother, but

you know, they they struggled pretty

much economically for most of their

lives. My grandfather died when I was

13. I think my grandmother died when I

was 20. And you know, this is Yeah, this

is right. This is probably not even a

year before she died. And I was about to

go to Iraq and she was very old and

frail. And this is one of the last

photos of the two of us. And this is

really the woman who raised me because

you raised the the revolving door of

father figures. So mom, amazing person.

She's been clean and sober for now 11

years. But she was was in the throws of

a pretty bad addiction problem for much

of my childhood. And so this was kind of

my savior. This was the person who

stepped in and made sure I had a stable

life to the extent that I did.

>> And your grandmother, she got pregnant

at 13.

>> Correct.

>> And she had a miscarriage at that age.

>> Yeah, that's right. So, think about

this. Eastern Kentucky, you're talking

about the hills of an extremely

impoverished, very rural part of the

United States of America. And so, you

know, she is dating my grandfather who I

think at the time is 16. She's 13. So,

these are children. She gets pregnant.

They move to Ohio for more opportunity

because you you just couldn't build a

good life for yourself. There weren't

enough good jobs in that part of the

world. And she had a miscarriage. So,

like the thing that brought her out of

her home, I think hastened them getting

married. I don't think they would have

gotten married at 13 and 16 were it not

for this unplanned pregnancy. You know,

she was kind of in it then. So, they're

married. They have a very chaotic

marriage, an abusive marriage in a lot

of ways. But they have three kids, my

mom, my uncle, my aunt. And the story of

our families in some ways, some of us

were able to kind of break the cycle and

some of us weren't. And part of what

motivated me to write that book is

trying to understand why is it why is it

that life worked out for some of us and

didn't work out for others.

>> So your biological father

>> Yeah.

>> He he put you up for adoption.

>> So he did. So I was adopted by a man

when I was five or 6 years old by the

name of Robert Hamill and he became and

it's still technically if you look at my

birth certificate he is still listed as

my legal father. Now, he was in the

picture from, call it, I was seven until

10 or 11. And then he and mom got

divorced. He still stuck around for a

little bit after that, but by the time I

was 12 years old, he was just gone.

Never talked to him again, never saw him

again. And

>> and am I right in thinking this is the

the third man in your life at this

point? Because your sister Lindsay comes

from a different father.

>> That's right. So So her father, a very

good guy. She's five or six years older

than me. And so he was the first of my

mother's husbands. And then my dad, my

biological father was number two. And

then my legal father was number three.

And then, you know, things sort of got a

little quicker from that point forward.

So there was a there was a there was

more turnover, let's say, in the

relationships at that point forward.

>> There was also a guy called Matt

thereafter at 13 years old that your mom

had met.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Good guy. Very close to him.

He actually is very political and so he

and I um reconnected a little bit over

our shared interest in politics, but he

was just a good hardworking guy. You

know, he was only around for maybe a few

years, probably less than that of my

life, but he was a a significant and

positive force.

>> In your book, Page 124, you you say

living with M and Matt, which is when

you were 14 years old, was like a front

row seat to the end of the world.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was just chaotic,

right? I mean, things that I thought of

as normal that I later realized in, you

know, talking to my wife or talking to

friends that just a level of

relationship instability, you know,

fighting, people throwing stuff, if the

fights get really bad, some person

throws a plate at somebody else. Again,

it sounds even talking about it now kind

of crazy, but it was pretty normal back

then. And, you know, sometimes it was

worse and sometimes it was better, but

there was a sense in which relationships

were always just kind of chaotic.

as an adult, you know, like you can

almost imagine now that you've got so

many kids yourself that I I can

understand the feeling of craziness

being normal and you kind of don't

realize until you see into someone

else's world or someone else hears about

yours

>> cuz I can relate to that in many ways.

But as an adult, you must look back on

that and now see the the way that that

shaped you.

>> Yeah. Well, it was very unhealthy. Um I

certainly think again it was hard to

sort of really feel a sense of

stability. It was hard to really attach

to people because you always assumed

that they were going to be gone. And you

know, years later, I was I was talking

to I was actually at a a conference. I

was giving a speech and this guy came up

to me and he was a child psychologist.

And you know, he said, you know, one of

the things the literature shows is that

people who come from traumatic or

chaotic environments and end up doing

pretty well, they always have one

person, whether it was a teacher, a

social worker, a grandparent, aunt or an

uncle. They always have one person who

sort of their anchor. And that seems to

be the difference for a lot of these

kids. And and again, I was lucky enough

to have that. And I think about my life

a lot of time, sitting here, I'm the

vice president of the United States.

What would my life have turned out to be

if you'd had all that chaos which was

just a background part of my life? But

you take out those stabilizing forces.

God knows man.

>> Your grandmother knows my grandmother.

That's right.

>> Cuz through your story when I was

reading about your childhood, she seemed

like the safe place that you would

retreat to over and over again.

>> You know, I was obviously I think it's

very important for boys to have male

role models, to have father figures that

they look up to. She was in in an

unconventional way like both a mother

figure and a father figure. She was

extraordinarily odd. And I mean that in

the most loving way possible, but she

was just incredibly tough. You know, I

was, I don't know, 12, 13. I was hanging

out with one of the kids in the

neighborhood who was kind of going down

a bad path. He actually would later

spend some time in jail, but you know,

he was getting into drugs, starting to

smoke weed, starting to do a little bit

more than that. Again, 12, 13, so we

were pretty young kids. My grandmother

found out and she told me that if I kept

on hanging out with this kid, she was

going to run him over with her car. And

then I was like kind of caught off guard

by that. And then she said, "Jie, I

promise you and no one will ever find

out about it." And I was like, "Wo."

So like for the sake of this kid, I

pretty much stopped hanging out with

him. But that toughness, I think, was

like a necessary part. It was like

through sheer willpower that she kept me

on the straight narrow. And uh again, I

don't know where I'd be without her.

>> And over the next sort of couple of

decades, your mother your mother's

addiction um seems to get worse and

worse.

>> It does. It does.

>> From prescription drugs to heroin and

everything in between. And it really

sort of ravages not just her life, but

the family's life.

>> That's right.

>> Nearly making your your grandparents

bankrupt.

>> Yes. And mom, by the way, has been clean

and sober for 11 years, which is an

amazing thing. But you know, when Papal

died, he was what my grandmother was for

me. I sort of realized that that's what

papa was for mom. He was her safe place.

He was her anchor. And I think she

already had some addiction problems, but

it just really accelerated from there.

And things kind of went off the rails.

And you know, my my grandparents before

my grandfather died were trying various

ways to help her. And yeah, it got worse

and worse, harder and harder drugs, had

a few bad overdoses, and you know, by

the grace of God, some miracle, you

know, it's it's amazing how transformed

she is. And it sort of drives home how

for some people drugs are just they they

take so much away from a human being.

And she was certainly that that way. And

in the same way that they took so much

away from her, sobriety has given her a

whole lot back.

>> If I asked your wife

>> Yeah. how this season of your life, the

most formative season of your life,

>> has changed you.

>> What are all the things you would say?

It's funny because I remember

interviewing, I think it was Michael

Jordan's coach,

>> and he said to me that people's dark

sides and their light sides are like

fundamentally interconnected.

>> Yes.

>> And I can relate.

>> Absolutely.

>> The things things people might clap for

or applaud about, you're also

fundamentally linked to the things that

you struggle with or that make you

sometimes not the most normal person.

Yes, that makes total sense to me. I

think on the dark side, what she would

say is I have an extraordinary

mistrust. I think of of people that I

don't know particularly well. I sort of

assume the worst sometimes about

circumstances and and and things outside

of my control, but I maybe assume the

best about the people themselves, right?

So, there's an inherent like sense that

the world is going to fall apart. I

think that's a very true thing. I mean,

even in like our marriages, it would be

hard to imagine. I'm not saying, you

know, all marriages are work, but it

would be hard to imagine like a marriage

that was more successful and more happy

than ours. Our kids are doing great.

They're healthy. Like, my wife and I

love each other very much, but we're

also just like, she really is my best

friend. She's the person I talk to about

everything. She's my closest confidant.

And yet, there are all kinds of times

during our 12-year marriage where I've

just had this thought like, there's no

way this is going to last. either

because she's taking the kids to the

grocery store and I start thinking to

myself, "Oh my god, a drunk driver is

going to have a head-on collision." I I

I just there's a sense of like

instability that is very much built in.

That's that's kind of the dark. I think

the light is because I've seen a lot of

people at their very best and their very

worst. I sort of assume the best about

the human beings themselves. So even

though the circumstances are crazy and

even though hits the fan sometimes

completely outside of your control, I

just I think what she would say is that

I probably have a higher empathy

quotient than any person that she knows.

>> And I really try to understand what

makes people tick. And so there's

there's the light and the dark together.

But there's there's a lot beyond that. I

mean, look, I mean, I I was a lot of

work when I look back at our early

relationship and we'd have an argument

like before we ever married and and I'd

be like, "Okay, well, fine. Let's just

break up." And her response is like,

"Well, that's crazy. Why would we break

up? Let's just like have a rational

conversation." Like, I honey, I don't do

rational conversations in this context.

That is not something we do. But again,

so long as you're, I think, self-aware

about that, it's a problem that you can

solve. And certainly I I mean I think

she would say com now compared to 14

years ago when we first started dating

it's just night and day but very early

on it was a chaotic relationship itself.

>> Clearly an avoidant attachment style

which obviously makes a ton of sense

100%. Yeah

>> I can relate. And

>> yeah I didn't have the vocabulary to

describe that but that's exactly what

that was.

Did you go did you have to go to like

couples therapy? Because it it seems

almost inconceivable that you could go

through that early context, have be so

avoidant, see be so sort of on on edge

with commitment and see everything as

kind of being ephemeral yet still have a

healthy relationship like the one you

you have with her?

>> No, never went to coup's therapy. I

actually went to like therapy a couple

of times and I just found it way too

uncomfortable to talk to a stranger and

so you know uncomfortable. Well, no, no.

I mean, this is I guess this is kind of

a we, you know, a weird kind of therapy,

but no, it it's it just the idea. The

other thing I really didn't like about

it, and again, I don't mean this to

criticize therapy. I'm sure it helps a

lot of people. So, so please don't take

this the wrong way. But there was

something about it that felt almost too

self-reerential

and too like it almost encouraged at

least me to blame others or to blame my

past or to blame my mom or to blame it

just I really didn't like this feeling

that I was sort of giving up agency over

my own life. And so we've just gotten

better at how we relate to each other.

But that's primarily me. I mean, she

grew up in a very stable situation. So,

her parents are South Asian immigrants

to the United States of America. But she

was born and raised in San Diego,

California. You know, just very normal

middle class Southern California life.

And I think because that she just had

much healthier, let's say, much

healthier relationship practices than I

did.

>> That point about understanding the

person on the other end and having

empathy for the human being.

>> Politics.

>> Yeah. appears to be almost exact because

I watch the I watch the election

campaigns. I watch how like yourself and

the president went against um people

like Camala Harris.

>> Sure.

>> So you must with that logic think that

Kamala Harris is actually like a really

good person. Like you must understand

Kamala.

>> I I don't I I don't have I wouldn't say

that I understand her. I would say that

I just don't have this animosity towards

people on the other side.

>> But you is that not like sort of

implicit in the job itself that you have

to point out their faults and

>> Yeah, you do. Yeah. No, absolutely. But

I think you can be sort of rational

about it. You can be cerebral about it.

Certainly there are things the other

side does that annoy me. But you know

like my my fundamental bias is that just

most people are good people. And to the

extent that they do something you

disagree with, it's either because they

screwed up on something or because they

made a mistake or I just I've always

been like this. I've always been more

charitable about other human beings. And

I I don't know. Again, maybe I pro maybe

I do that too much. Maybe I'm too

charitable. But I'd rather be too

charitable than too cynical about human

beings because that I mean you talk

about a screwed up perspective to take

into politics. If you're always cynical

about other people's motivations, man,

you're going to be in a very very bad

spot. I actually think the same about

interviewing remarkably because No,

because I I miss I meet so many people

from so many different and one of the

things that I've come to learn is just

just try and meet everybody as I

experience them versus like

>> you know especially when I'm

interviewing politicians

>> it's I just want to meet them as I

experience them versus thinking about

how they've been framed or whatever. And

it's actually made me much more

empathetic because again obviously we

all have preconceptions and then you

meet someone and you go, "Oh, they are a

family person. They care about X Y and

Z. They care about the same things. They

just disagree about pathways."

>> Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

>> But politics seems to be like the the

sort of game of politics to me seems to

be like paint the other side to be

malicious.

>> Well, I I think the game of politics I

mean fundamentally you're making a pitch

to people, right? It's not it's not

about Kla Harris or Donald Trump or JD

Vance or Tim Walls. is about the

American people, right? And

fundamentally to make that sales pitch,

you have to say what's better about this

product, what's worse about the other

product. So that that is just inherent.

But again, I I think you can do that.

You know, what I always try to do is I

try to talk about here are the policies

that are really bad. Here are the

reasons why I think this is screwed up.

Here are the reasons why I think that

she made mistakes. But I, you know, it

is weird. It is fundamentally you are in

a position where you're trying to point

out the faults in another people, even

if it's just their conduct as opposed to

their character. But even with that, I

again I I I do think that you see people

in politics who fundamentally just

really hate the people on the other

side.

>> Yeah.

>> That's that's just not me. It's never

going to be me. Even when I'm being very

pugilistic, like even when you you

really have to drive home a point, like

I you know, not to get too much into the

weeds of of partisan politics, but like

something I think the Biden

administration just like really screwed

up in a profoundly dangerous way was the

was our immigration policy. right now.

There are all kinds of reasons why that

might have happened. But fundamentally,

that was a very, very, very bad screw

up, but I don't hate Kla Harris because

I think she had a bad immigration

policy. I just think it's important to

point out the flaws

>> on on the immigration policy. I mean,

still got to go through your chart here,

but on this point of immigration, this

is another area where you get such

division.

>> Sure.

>> And you get, you know, I remember

watching the there was a couple of

things I remember watching when I was I

think probably back in Plymouth um in

the countryside. One of them was like

Trump, the president demonizing me

Mexican people and brown people. I

remember this particular quote which

I've always struggled with a little bit

where he said about the black community,

what have you got to lose? And I

remember thinking, I'm a black man. I

feel like I've got things to lose. Um

that kind of narrative about those

individuals, that broadstrokes

sort of demonization of them would make

people's lives harder and feels

unnecessary. Even if you agree that

immigration is a problem, the the sort

of like skin color or religion or like

Mexicans rapists and murderers is is

might might galvanize in the near term,

but in the long term is probably going

to sow division and that's probably net

negative for society.

Well, what I one thing I'd say just

about anything that I've ever heard the

president say that then that's then

refracted through the lens of social

media or you know non-social media

>> is very often what he is accused of

saying he didn't say it or he said it in

a totally different way or there was

much greater context. So like I like I

remember for example like I remember

back in 2016 or 2015 whenever he said

this sort of being like offended at the

rapists and murderers line

>> and then I went and looked at what he

said and what he said which is actually

true is that some of these countries are

actually encouraging prisoners to come

into the United States of America. Does

that mean that every person comes in

America as a rapist or a murderer or as

a prisoner? No, it doesn't. But he

didn't say that. Right. So, so again

this goes back to the point about being

charitable is I I do try to understand

fundamentally like why did a person say

that?

>> What are they actually thinking? What

are they trying to get across? And

again, if you disagree with that's fine.

>> You wouldn't have said that.

>> But but I think well the president and I

certainly have way different styles.

Absolutely. We have different styles.

But I mean the the way that I talk about

immigration I'd say that's one of the

issues where we've always been like

extremely closely aligned and that was

obviously a major issue during the 2024

campaign. But the way that I think about

immigration is is fundamentally like as

a country you are the people who live in

your nation. Okay? So America's 330

million souls, you know, I think fun

again most of them who whether they

voted for me or not, they're really good

people and they want really good things

for their families. They want really

good things for themselves. And yeah,

there are like some bad apples in every

crew, 330 million people. There are

definitely some bad people, but most

people are fundamentally good and

decent. However, you could let people

into your country who could be fun,

decent, normal human beings who just

kind of mess with the the equation a

little bit. It's like if I have a bunch

of people over to my house for dinner

and I I invite 10 people to come over

for dinner and one of them brings a

stranger, it's probably going to be fun,

right? But if like every single one of

them bring three strangers, it's going

to totally change the character of the

conversation that you're going to have

of the room that you're going to have. A

country is like that just on a much more

massive scale. So I maybe come at it or

I describe it a different way. But

fundamentally I think that the president

was very right about immigration in a

way that was preient. And even if the

blunt way that he described it offended

some people, I think it was like a very

important contribution to not just our

country but to the world. I think it

would be hard to find an American who

didn't think we needed um again I'm not

an American so I I guess I'm talking

about wherever I'm from but we needed

borders and a policy around borders.

>> Sure.

>> Just in the same way that we have it

around our house and every festival we

enjoy and whatever it whatever venue we

go to. I think the um the thing I've

always been concerned about when I see

the sort of rising narrative across the

world, not just in America, but now

across the West, um the UK as well, is

in trying to solve that problem, it

seems that like division is the most

compelling narrative for politicians.

And then the like downstream consequence

of division you see playing out on the

streets. You see like especially in the

UK at the moment you're really seeing um

certain communities be quite um

demonized and victimized because of this

broad political narrative which which is

being used to get people into power. But

then the downstream consequences of like

real people on the streets that are

brown or black or Muslims is like

>> I don't think the people at the top

consider that.

Well, I mean I is there another way of

of making the point on immigration,

legal immigration without demonizing

people?

>> Well, I I certainly when when I talk

about it, to the extent that I demonize

anybody on the immigration conversation,

I demonize the leadership that is immune

to thinking about the consequences of

this. And so just this this point about

division, division is a very interesting

word to me because I think division is

very bad. Like I I like living in a in a

community that's cohesive, where people

get along, where we love everybody

regardless of what they look like or

what they what thoughts they might have

in their head. But like let me give you

like a slightly different perspective on

the division thing. What if division is

not the result of politicians demonizing

certain groups? But what if division is

the inevitable consequence of when the

population changes too quickly, too fast

in a given society? and what you see as

as you know politicians exploiting

division. I actually think that what

they're trying to do is articulate a

feeling that people have and sometimes

people might express that feeling in

ways that we don't like or maybe they're

offensive but but fundamentally like

let's just say you're you know you're a

working-class guy in Britain or you're a

working- class guy in the United States

of America and

you know somebody moves in your

neighborhood.

>> That's right. I did I did.

>> Yeah. So my my black we my family is

obviously black. My mom's Nigerian and I

came from Botswan and I moved into an

all white neighborhood.

>> Okay. And I mean how did people treat

you?

>> Uh we were called the n-word a couple of

times.

>> Well like like that's terrible. I don't

like that. But I imagine that a lot of

people in your community were welcoming

unless unless

>> you know they were. For sure. For sure.

But you know as a kid you only remember

the ways you stand out.

>> No of course you know that can be like

Yeah. And I understand that and I and I

certainly think it's important to like

try to fight back against that stuff.

Like we don't want young kids who come

into a community for that to be like

their their memory. But like I also like

our next door neighbor was black family

and my my grandmother was not woke. She

did not have progressive views about

race or gender or pretty much anything

else. But like she really loved I'll

never forget this. The the the black man

who lived next door to us, she said he

has a good heart. And that was her

highest compliment of anybody.

>> He was a preacher. The family was like a

very very good family. Stable family.

Mom, dad, few kids. And I was very close

to to to the young son. And I I just I

did not experience that. When people

talk about division, I just did not see

that family as substantially different

from us. And I don't think that family

I'm sure they experienced racism, but I

don't think that was like a common

fixture of their day living in that

neighborhood. Now, yeah, that's

>> where Mammald really did resist the

changes is when we had a few people like

the neighborhood went downhill very

quickly, and I talk about that a little

bit in the book, and you had a bunch of

people move in with different habits,

and you had a woman who, you know, she

said a bath, but then she got drunk and

passed out, and so she ruined her entire

house. And you know some at some level

was it wrong for my grandmother to feel

offended that her neighborhood had

changed so quickly so fast that she

never felt she didn't feel comfortable

there anymore or the people who came in

had different values or she couldn't

hold a conversation with somebody in the

same way. You know, I I got attacked by

this on this during the campaign in 2024

when I said, you know, it's actually

okay if you're an American, an English

native speaker, it's actually okay for

you to want the person who moves in next

to you to speak English, not because

you're a racist or a xenophobe, but

because you want to be able to talk to

the person you share a community with.

And so what what I often see is that

division gets magnified when statesmen

don't do the job of actually ensuring

that integration is possible. And for

integration to be possible, it has to

be, I think, slowmoving. You have to be

careful, right? A 100 people moving into

a community is different from 10 people

moving into a community. You have to

make sure that everybody has economic

opportunities, right? It's one thing to

welcome a newcomer when everybody has

access to a good job, but you welcome a

newcomer when a lot of people are

feeling economically distressed. They're

going to react to it totally

differently. So again, this is maybe me

being charitable to people you think I

shouldn't be charitable to, but

fundamentally like my job as an elected

leader is to create the kind of

environment where division happens less.

It's not to pretend that division

doesn't exist. people naturally, I

think, feel reactive when things change

too quickly, and that's okay.

>> No, I I understand the the sort of human

instinct of of uh I guess of kind of

like xenophobia in a way. Um and I think

we all we all would want our neighbor to

be able to connect with our neighbor.

>> Yeah.

>> I think it's like the the point of

nuance is when they can't speak my

language, what do I then do about that?

And I think, you know, maybe if my

neighbor didn't speak my language, we

might not get along because we won't be

able to connect and talk. But but I

wouldn't be angry at them. And I and my

my concern is from a high level when the

the sort of western narrative now is

that it's the brown people that are the

reason that your life is hard is I if if

I believed that if I heard that from my

political leaders, it's conceivable that

I might be angry at my neighbor even

though they've done nothing. Just their

presence alone might make me resent them

a little bit. And then what happens when

I resent them? because I'm being told

that they're the reason that I'm

suffering. They're the reason I don't

have a job. And then we get into this

these like cultural wars, which is a

slippery slope. I've always

>> I hear you. But what I would say is is

I'm not mad, and I said this on the

campaign trail all the time. I'm not mad

at the illegal alien who broke our laws

and came into the country. Probably some

of them probably didn't even know they

were breaking our laws, who came into

our country and wanted better

opportunity for their families. What I

am mad is the political system. The I

don't know, right? It's hard to say, but

I am mad at the political system that

encourages people to break those rules

and sews division and then gets mad at

the native population for looking around

and saying, "Wait a second. I didn't

sign up for this. I didn't agree to

this." So, I just like, you know, I

don't know what you describe that. I I

would say there's an instinct in every

human being to want to share a community

with people where you've got something

in common with. Okay. And and it's like

everything, right? A little bit of spice

is good. Too much spice changes the the

dynamic a little bit. And I think most

people, they're okay with change, but

change that happens too fast, too

quickly. I think in an immigration

context is very very bad for a country.

And I think you guys have had that.

We've had that. A lot of European

countries have had that. I don't even

feel particularly angry um at any

country because it's a mistake that all

of us made. But now that you see that, I

mean, you rightly call it division. I

just think that we have to say, "Wait a

second. let's try to do things a

slightly different way.

>> I think algorithms also play a big role

in that because of the the design.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

>> So that's but that's probably another

conversation. Um I do think though if I

if my family were struggling or at all

in danger at risk and there was a an

area of land over there that offered

them a better chance. I personally think

for the sake of my family if my family

was struggling I would try and move my

family into that area. And I I assume

you would do the same. I assume you

would if your family I've got this

wonderful photo of your kids and your

wife. Well, if America went to

catastrophe and Mexico was doing great,

would you not try and get into Mexico

even if it wasn't um you didn't have a

visa?

>> I No, I don't think I would. I mean I I

I can understand why some people have to

like move, you need to eat, you need to

provide for your family. But you know, I

I I think that this is another thing

about about the immigration thing that

is that is challenging is, you know, you

want people to feel a certain rootedness

and a certain devotion to their country.

You know, one of the things that's very

unique about America compared to Europe

is there's this poll question that went

around when I was a teenager, maybe I

was in my early 20s, and it asked, "What

percentage of young people in that

society would die for their country if

they had to?" Like, I'm not excited

about the idea, but would actually do

it. In the United States, it was

something like 70%. And in all the other

European, all the other Western

countries, it was like 20 to 35%.

And so,

you know, you talk about like, okay,

moving to Mexico because there's

economic opportunity in in a universe

where Mexico is flourishing and

America's struggling. I get what you're

saying that you want people to move and

migrate to the place where they can have

a chance of feeding their family, but

like I I love this place in a way that

is totally independent of the economic

opportunities it provides to my

children. There's something much deeper

and there's a connection to to to the

places, to the memories, to the

folkways. I I mean I I drive through

Eastern Kentucky, man, and those

beautiful rolling hills and even

mountains, but they're all mountains

that are a light with life because

they're, you know, it's not the Rockies.

You know, you go you go to you go to

West Virginia, you should do this. It's

the most beautiful area, I think, in the

world because you get the mountains and

you get the rivers and you get that, but

it's also so green and rich with life. I

feel an attachment to it that is very,

very unique. But even if if your family

were at risk, you wouldn't move them

into Mexico.

>> Well, I mean, look, my my the story of

my family, my grandparents, is they came

from Eastern Kentucky and moved to

southern Ohio, not exactly that far

away. These are these are two very close

areas, but they moved away even though

they didn't want to because of economic

opportunity to provide for their

families. So, I I certainly empathize

with that. I mean, yeah, if somebody

showed up, I mean, like, I'm the vice

president. I have a Secret Service

detail. It's hard to put myself in this

perspective right now, but if like

somebody showed up to my home in

Cincinnati and pointed a gun at my head

and said, "You have to leave or we're

going to kill your children." I'd leave,

right? But

>> yeah,

>> I I think most migration decisions are

not actually that

>> extreme

>> consequential and extreme.

>> Makes sense.

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>> This young man here, you ultimately go

into the Marine Corps.

>> I go into the Marine Corps. Yeah. So,

this is this is me in I believe right

after boot camp. So, 2003, maybe May.

Yeah, I think 2003. This is me. This

photo is taken in boot camp. And this is

I'm pretty sure this is taken in Iraq.

Actually, this is either in ' 05 or ' 06

at a point when, you know, the Iraq war

was not going well. But

>> why did you die?

>> What was the decision?

>> You know, there was this sense, and in

hindsight, I really resent this. I mean,

I'm genuinely still angry at George W.

Bush over this, even though, again, I I

try to I try to be charitable and I have

friends who worked for him, think he's a

great guy. Not saying he's not, but when

I was a senior in high school, I

remember

I'm at a restaurant. It's called Skyline

Chile in southwestern Ohio. And this guy

comes out of Skyline Chile. He's got

like a World War II red veterans hat. We

call them Red Hatters in the United

States. So he was a veteran of World War

II. And I remember feeling like cuz you

know even that stage, this is probably

2003, 2002 maybe. Remember thinking to

myself, this generation is dying away.

like I I have this feeling, right?

Because most most veterans you met, they

were veterans of Vietnam, maybe of the

first Iraq war. But I just went up and I

was I shook his hand. I said, "Thank

you, sir, for your service." And you

know, he was like genuinely touched. But

I remember thinking, "This guy answered

the call. Now we have to answer the

call." You know, September 11th happened

when I was a junior in high school. And

there was this patriotic sense of this

is our World War II, right? And even

some of the historical analogies that

got used were the exact same. Saddam

Hussein was Adolf Hitler. What if you

had had an opportunity to stand up and

say no to Adolf Hitler when he annexed

the Sudatan land? Wouldn't you have

taken that chance? And it it's like they

they they were so good at tapping into

that patriotic reservoir. And by the

way, I think that reservoir is a very

valuable thing. I think it's important

for statesmen to cultivate it, but only

to tap into it when it's really

necessary and when it's really

justified. And what was so screwed up

about Iraq is I mean I remember like I

went to the Marine Corps recruiter and I

wanted to be Marine because my older

cousins were Marines and people said the

Marines were the toughest. Whether

that's true or not, that was certainly

the impression that Marines had of

themselves. I signed on the dotted line.

I went in what's called open contract.

So sometimes you sign up and you have

your job assigned like you already know

what you're going to do. I went I went

an open contract. I said, "You can give

me whatever job you want to. I just want

to be a Marine." And I I I did that

because I loved my country and I wanted

to contribute in the same way that that

guy who wore a red hat, was still

wearing his red hat, was still proud of

it, knew that he contributed. And uh you

know that led me of course to go to Iraq

from '05 to '06 and made a lot of

friends gained a ton of appreciation for

the Marine Corps as an institution and

the people but you know became a little

jaded about our political leadership.

>> Why are you you said you you kind of

annoyed at Bush

>> because

that patriotic reservoir that exists in

any country I think it's maybe most

powerful in the United States of America

because again we have this 70 70 plus

percent of young people say they would

die for their country. It's very unique

among advanced economies. And I'm sure a

lot of people in Europe look at that and

say, "Oh, those jingoistic idiots,

they're, you know, they're they're wrong

or there's something bad about that."

But I actually think you ha to have a

real nation, you have to have the

willingness that if, god forbid,

something happens, you're willing to put

on your uniform and go and do what needs

to be done. But again, in order for that

to work, in order for that feeling to be

justified, leaders have to not take

advantage of it. You can't say Saddam

Hussein is Adolf Hitler. He wasn't.

>> You You got to be careful with it. And I

don't think that George W. Bush was

careful with it. I I think that he

called the nation to do something that

ultimately wasn't actually in our best

interest as a nation, but more

fundamentally, he drew on that

wellspring of patriotism to direct us to

do something that we shouldn't have been

doing in the first place

>> because he had bad information or

because of negligence or incompetence.

>> I don't I mean, I you know, I know

enough people who know him. I think he

had bad information but you know

fundamentally like

post 911 was really important. We had to

go and deal with the terrorist networks

that had existed all across the world

that had been allowed to fester over the

previous generation of of American

negligence. But fundamentally

the war on terrorism was not an

existential thing to the United States

of America in the same in the way that

like World War II was an existential

thing for Britain. Right. And I think we

just we have to be careful about how we

describe what we're asking our young

people to do because if you ask them to

do something and they feel like you were

being honest with them, I think that

sort of pays dividends into that

patriotic reservoir. If you ask somebody

to do something and it turns out you

were lying to them, whether it was

intentional or not, I think you draw

down that patriotic reservoir. I don't

know what the By the way,

>> I mentioned that that poll and you know,

I don't have the information. I don't

know the data in front of me, but

whatever the number of Americans, young

Americans who say they would die for

their country, I would bet my I' I'd bet

a lot of money that that number in 2026

is much lower than it was in 2003.

>> So, it's really like a sort of a

contract with the nation that's built on

trust.

>> Social contract built on trust. You

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>> The the US is I guess in a war now.

>> Well, not anymore.

>> Famous last words.

>> Fair.

>> We are in a ceasefire that I feel very

good about.

>> Okay. that we announced. I know this

will air later, but but we announced the

ceasefire. We announced the the peace

agreement with the Iranians yesterday.

>> Yes. I've learned so much about war

because of this war. Um, in part because

I'm an interviewer at the time of war

and so I've been having lots of

conversations with lots of people about

the nature of war and I've learned so

much. Frankly, I didn't know anything

about Vietnam and really the psychology

of war. Yeah.

>> And how like when you start a war,

Robert P said this to me. He said, "The

thing people underestimate about a war

is when the bombs start dropping,

politics changes both where the bombs

are dropping and at home."

>> Sure.

>> And I I to some degree think that with

the Iran war now, that's like exactly

what happened

>> from my assessment of it, which is it

looked like it was going to be quite

straightforward. Drop the bombs, take

out the leader. Um the people rise up,

which is what um the president had said.

He had encouraged the people to rise up

when those bombs dropped and Kmeni was

taken out. But then what then happened?

What it's again I don't know what I'm

talking about here so please correct me

is it looked like the country kind of

fractured into all of these sort of

little pockets of militia and military

um I remember I think it was heath

saying it just takes some time for the

carrier pigeon to get out to where the

soldiers are the outpost but and it

speaks to how the fracturing had

happened

>> and then I heard the president and I

think yourself multiple times say like

we don't really know who we're

negotiating with or words to that effect

>> because we've taken out the first and

second row of leadership ship and then I

I thought we gosh we're in the same

situation again where the bomb started

dropping unintended consequences were

there's now not one central leadership

to negotiate with but also politics at

home has shifted the I mean the approval

ratings of I got this graph of the

approval ratings had started to plummet

at home

>> and politics is changing on the ground

there as well is this another forever

war

>> well the answer is no um and you This is

always when I I talked about this this

conflict. I always said Donald Trump

learned the lessons. It's actually

that's almost unfair to him. He didn't

learn the lessons of the Iraq war

because back during the Iraq war, he was

saying this was stupid. We should get

out of Iraq. He was saying that back

then. And I think that while there were

certainly some objectives that we had in

this conflict, I just never had any

doubt. Now, obviously I'm an insider. I

saw the president's deliberations and

thought on this, but I I never had any

worry that this would become a

multi-year expedition with no end in

sight because I knew that we had

leadership that was trying to define the

objective very narrowly, accomplish the

objective, and then see where we are.

Mhm.

>> And so, you know, if you go back, you

talk about this this street uprising,

certainly there was some thought that it

would be possible that the Iranian

street would rise up in the face of this

thing and that you would see, you know,

a new government that was much more

pro-American, much more pro-western.

What what happened though is and what we

knew we could do is degrade their

military. That was the that was actually

the primary objective. Yes, the

president talked about the Iranians

rising up, but the primary objective was

always to degrade their conventional

power so that we could be in a better

position visa v Iran so that whoever was

calling the shots, they didn't have a

loaded gun to our head anymore. Okay?

And that's what we knew we could

accomplish. And then there was always

the question about, okay, now that we've

accomplished that, where do we go from

here? And you know, one one of the

things that I I feel just just quite

good about this moment that we're in is

the president basically bought us an

option. He said, "We can weaken their

military, destroy their conventional

military, we can change their

leadership, and then we can actually

present a pathway to the Iranian

leadership. Where do we go from here?"

Like, you said something very

interesting that was true months ago

that's not true now. Two months ago, I

would have said, "I have no idea who

we're who we're negotiating with."

Absolutely. Now, I feel very confident

that we have an understanding of who

we're negotiating with, what it is that

they care about. Yes, there are

fractures in their system. Well, there

there so so so so the Iranian system,

this is oversimplifying it a lot, but it

has kind of three poles. There's the

political poll, the people who are most

responsive to the leadership. That's the

foreign minister, the president, the

speaker of the parliament. Okay? There's

a clerical poll, meaning the clerics who

actually hold ultimate authority in the

Iranian system via the supreme leader,

the clerics, the the the religious

leaders. And then you have the military,

particularly the IRGC. Okay, all three

of these polls interact with each other

in in weird ways. And one of the things

we definitely two months ago, we were

like, "Wait a second, who has the upper

hand? What does this group want versus

this group versus that group?" But what

what I feel pretty confident about now,

I mean, this this we're taping this

interview, I guess, June 15th, right?

What I feel quite confident about right

now is that we know who we're dealing

with and the fractures really aren't the

the you know the system is kind of

coalesed and what they're telling us

which is interesting now is it the

street rising up no but what they're

telling us is you know what

you know obviously they're not like

endorsing anything that we did there's a

lot of mistrust a lot of animosity but

you know fundamentally we've done one

thing visav the United States for 47

years and we shouldn't do that thing

anymore. We want to change. And if you,

the Americans, are willing to actually

negotiate with us to have a

conversation. Yeah, we're willing to

make the long-term commitment never to

develop nuclear weapons, but we want a

totally different economic arrangement

than what we have with the West right

now. So, that's where we're at right now

is actually figuring out the details of

what that would look like. But where

where we stand right now, I actually

feel pretty good about it. I feel good

that we actually could have a better

relationship with that country. I feel

good that they'll never have a nuclear

weapon. So that'd be like a real loaded

gun they would have to the West. But I

also think that there is a general

consensus that their in in their system

that their relationship would be

different than than um than the past.

The other thing just this is very

important

the underappreciated element like this

is like if I was ever going to write a

book about Donald Trump's foreign policy

and by the way he hates people who write

books not like books like that but

insider books where you take trusted

information and put it into a book

doesn't like that but what I would what

I would say is he's so non-conventional

in the way that he does everything but

certainly in the way that he does

foreign policy that things that were

previously unimaginable are actually on

the table. So when Donald Trump says to

the Iranians, we want you to be a

successful country if you give us what

we need on nuclear. We'll take the

sanctions off your country and allow you

to prosper. That would have been

unthinkable 10 years ago in any Democrat

or Republican administration. But it's

thinkable because Donald Trump is just

like, "No, the the way things worked in

the past are dumb. We're going to do

something new." And that's that's what

he's putting on the table. We'll see if

they meet us, but right now I feel

pretty good about it. The other term I'd

never heard before is straight of

Hormuz.

>> Yes.

>> I've heard so much about the bloody

straight of Hormuz. Um, did you have any

idea that the Iranians would cut off the

straight of Hormuz? You you did know

that going into it. So,

>> it was a major

you see these media reports like the the

Trump team was caught off guard. What

would happen in the straight of Horus

was a main fixture of the conversation

that we were having about whether to do

this, how to do this. So, it was

certainly a variable. Now, now you can

never predict with a 100% certainty what

people are going to do, but the basic

bias that we had going into it is that

they would try to cut off the straight.

They would try to jack up energy prices.

They thought, and I think this is true,

they thought that they could cut off the

straits for us, but actually keep the

straits open for themselves. That ended

up not being true when we imposed the

blockade. But fundamentally, we we knew

some version of what would happen. But

we also went into it saying if they do

this fundamentally it's a short-term

thing. So like Brent crude is sort of

the main crude oil index, right? I think

the highest it got was $126 per barrel.

Right now sitting here it's around $82 a

barrel. It's fallen off a cliff because

there's a broad recognition that yeah,

it was a short-term shock, but not a

short-term shock that's going to

permanently alter the world energy

economy. It's quite a powerful weapon

they have in their arsenal just to take

shutter the world's economy and piss off

your people at home at the gas pump.

It's quite like it's quite a

>> well uh geography really matters in

warfare it turns out and yes they have

great proximity to the straight of

Hormuz but but again if you just go back

two weeks ago one of the things that's

interesting really under reportported um

but I think you know your listeners will

obviously be interested in is

if you look at the amount of oil that we

were getting out of the straight of

Hormuz we I mean the United States the

Gulf Coast coalition broadly speaking

the Arabs in the Gulf Right? You look at

it what it was, call it April 1st, it

was like close to zero. You go to May

30th, early June, it was many, many

million barrels of of oil a day. Now,

not enough to eliminate the shock to be

clear, but we were seeing significant

increases in oil traffic. And again, I

think that's one of the reasons why

we're having a good negotiation with the

Iranians is they recognized, yes, they

have this leverage point, but maybe not

forever. And it's one of those cards you

can play, but you can't necessarily play

it week after week after week. It

degrades in power. So, I take your

point. Yeah, they have this geographical

thing going on. But I think that

geographical leverage point was

weakening over time and it's it's why we

are where we are. I think with a very

good deal,

>> knock on wood, we have to see it

completion

>> because if you're them, you go, "Well,

all I've got to do is wait two years

because the president is going to be,

you know, removed from from office in

two years time. is going to be at the

end of his term. So, if they could just

wait it out for 2 years, they can hope

that a new political leader that comes

in um might be more charitable with

them.

>> Yeah. But if if if Donald Trump has two

and a half years left in office, I think

the Iranians recognize they did not have

two and a half years to weigh things

out. One is as we got more and more oil

out of the straight, their leverage

point decreased. But in some ways, more

importantly, like look, you look at

Persian culture, you look at the history

of Iran, this is one of the proudest and

oldest civilizations anywhere in the

world. They don't want to be like a

Libya style rump state.

>> They want to have a much brighter

future. Like I think that that's

actually true. Now there's a question

about how to get there and obviously

there's a lot of animosity between the

two sides, but I do think something has

fundamentally changed in the way that

regime sees the world.

>> The um the deal that you have on the

table.

>> Yes.

>> Now, okay, excuse me if I'm skeptical,

but I said to you before we start

started recording, I watch everything.

>> Yes. So, I've watched every if if you do

an interview, Hexath does one. If the

president does one, I see it. I see the

whole thing. I don't know why, but that

I I'm very very interested in US

politics because it does impact the

whole world.

>> Sure.

>> And as I've watched these interviews,

there's been lots of false deals. You

flew out there to Pakistan and you flew

right back. The deal wasn't done. Um I

think I saw a report the other day that

said uh the president has said roughly

30 times that there's a deal done or

that there's a deal on the table.

Usually on a Sunday, then it's not. Then

we go back into this negotiation thing.

So I'm like I don't have any trust

anymore for for a deal getting done.

>> Well, this one's real. So

>> Okay, good. Okay, so

>> people can always change their minds,

but this one is real

>> for sure. So what what does that mean?

Does it mean that there's a contract

that has been sent with terms on it and

they've provisionally like a term sheet

said we agree?

>> Yes.

>> That's exactly what's happened.

>> Okay. So they've agreed to a term sheet.

>> Yes.

>> And then as is the case in business and

investing, that becomes more of a

formalized contract. Correct. And then

that's signed.

>> That's right.

>> So what is in the term sheet?

Well, a few things. So, the the first is

that the Straits of Hormuz opens

effectively immediately and the blockade

is lifted effectively immediately. Now,

when I say effectively, that's doing a

little bit of work there because, you

know, part of what's going on is there's

a different risk tolerance for different

shippers in the Gulf. So, some again,

like I said earlier, some of these guys

are already shipping a lot of oil

through the Straits of Hormuz right now,

even though the Iranians are threatening

to shoot at them. But what what this

means is that over time we're going to

demine the straight of Hormuz. The

Iranians are going to stop shooting.

We're going to lift our naval blockade

and you're going to see I think a pretty

quick resumption of full flow of traffic

in the straight of Hormuz. That that's

number one. And there's most important

thing there's mines there mines in

there. But it it's, you know, it's a

very big waterway. There's a lot of

traffic moving right now. So we know

where the mines are. They're not

everywhere. And you know, again, the

ships are able to move. The biggest

obstacle and impediment to ships moving

right now is actually not the mines

themselves. It's the Iranians who are

shooting drones and missiles on the

other side. Now, I say that we have seen

a precipitous decline since we signed

this agreement. We've seen a precipitous

decline and even that happening. So,

you're already again seeing the fruits

of this negotiation that we have. Number

two

is it contemplates the Iranians

giving up their highlyenriched stockpile

of material, committing to a long-term

inspections regime on their nuclear

program, and in exchange having a

totally different economic relationship

with the United States of America. So

like there's a stack of of sanctions

that the US has on Iran that is like 60

pages long. That is incredibly

destructive to the Iranian economy by

design, right? the the the deal is

you're not going to behave like a normal

country. We're not going to engage in

normal trade and transactions with you.

What this agreement provides is that if

the Iranians take significant steps to

behave like a normal country, they're

going to get significant reintegration

into the world economy. And I think

that's that that that is in some ways

the most profound thing. And what the

United States gets out of that is is the

long-term guarantee that they never

become a nuclear power. I think people

always sort of it's hard to to

appreciate how temporal this is. The

Iranian nuclear program has been

completely destroyed. Like it doesn't

exist right now, but over time you can

try to rebuild it. And so what we're

trying to say is we don't want you to

rebuild this program. If you make real

commitments and verifiable commitments

that you're not going to, then you're

getting a lot of economic benefits on

the side.

>> You dropped those big uh bunker buster

bombs.

>> Correct. um was very fascinated by all

the all that whole series of of military

operations and um it the nuclear

material is now buried pretty deep

underground from what I understand with

this deal. Do you get to go and get it?

Do they hand it over to you? What

happens?

>> So the way the deal is is structured is

that the Iranians, the Americans and the

International Atomic Energy Agency will

actually work together to go get the

material and destroy it. That's that's

the basic idea is that we're all going

to work together. Again, the the

agreement contemplates a new era in

relation. So the idea is that we're all

going to try to work together, destroy

this material. And again, if that

happens, the Iranians are going to have

a totally different economic

relationship with the West. And if it

doesn't happen, then the United States

is no worse off.

>> And you do you get to check that they're

not just going to a different mountain

and building new nuclear weapons?

>> That's where the verification element

comes in. But we have a very good sense,

you know, you can probably guess why. We

have a very good sense of what's going

on in the country of Iran. We could

probably keep that material just

permanently buried, but we don't want to

do that. We actually want to solve the

problem and we want the Iranians to have

a different relationship with us and

that's what we're trying to do.

>> And the specifics of you being able to

go and check that they're not just

building new nuclear weapons. It sounds

to me like the specifics haven't been

defined yet, like how those checks take

place.

>> Well, it's Yeah, it's like you said,

it's it's a term sheet where we've got

broad agreement on principles and how

we're going to approach the negotiation,

but there are a lot of details that we

got to figure out from here. So I've got

straight of Hamuz opens um nuclear

inspections but also a coalition to

remove the nuclear waste.

>> Correct.

>> Um from that they get the opportunity to

participate in the in the economy and

sanctions will be lifted. Yep.

>> Is there anything that's in that term

sheet that's not included there?

>> I mean there are other like little

details and things like that. You know

obviously the permanent sessation of

hostilities. We're trying to bring in a

a regional era of peace here. But that's

pretty much the main thing. and Israel.

Um, there was some uh some interesting

words exchanged yesterday. Again, I

watch everything. So, I saw that the the

Fox reporter had called Trump, I think

yesterday, because Netanyahu had started

firing some bombs and he had some select

words, kind of like your grandmother's

words.

>> Yes, indeed.

>> Apparently, he said uh Trump said he'd

phoned Netanyahu and told him he had no

judgment. Why did BB have to do

a attack? I'm so pissed off.

Half an hour before we were supposed to

sign the deal, Trump called Netanyahu a

very difficult guy. He should be very

thankful for us for doing this because

if Iran had a nuclear weapon, Israel

wouldn't be around for 2 hours. Um, lots

of cussing at Netanyahu and what he had

done. You I've heard you actually say

that you think Israel and the United

States have two different objectives as

it relates to I don't want to

mischaracterize your words, but

>> Well, what I'd say is that we're

different countries with different

interests. I think the United States

sometimes people characterize, you know,

Israel is is a good partner to the

United States. That is true. But

sometimes people mischaracterize it and

say that Israel and the United States

are fundamentally always aligned. It's

just not true. We're different

countries. We have different needs. We

have different geographies.

>> Do you trust them?

>> You know, I don't trust anybody. Um,

when it comes to international affairs

and diplomacy, do I think that they're

they're very capable? Absolutely. Do I

think that again, when we have shared

interests, we work together very well?

Absolutely. But but do I but I I don't

trust anyone. And I think that we we

just have to continually be laser

focused on what our interests are. And

you know what the president said about

BB is, you know, sometimes,

you know, we are the world's superpower

and obviously we're Israel's most

important ally anywhere in the world.

And sometimes to ensure that we are able

to accomplish our objectives, the

president has to have a very frank

conversation with the prime minister of

Israel. Sometimes he does that.

Sometimes everything works smoothly,

sometimes it doesn't. It's just the

nature like any relationship, right? Any

relationship is going to have moments

where you have to be more direct,

sometimes you're working together, and

sometimes there's a little bit more

conflict.

>> The world's opinion and thoughts about

the USIsrael relationship,

>> yeah,

>> has never been more widely discussed.

>> I agree. And I I almost I almost don't

know why, but it's it seems to be the

case that over the last I'd say six to

12 months, people are really now

questioning what is this relationship

and who is who is the dominant part

partner in the relationship? What for

someone and just in super simple terms

because I don't really know a lot about

this particular point.

>> Sure.

>> What is the relationship and why and

where did it come from?

>> Well, you know, I'm I'm hardly an expert

in US-Issraeli relations, right? But but

let let me just say

they're obviously in some ways the only

democracy in the Middle East. Okay. Uh

very advanced economy, very high-skilled

people, technological ingenuity. I mean

it's a country of 9 million people. They

generate a lot of the world's inventions

just from 9 million people. It's very

impressive country economically. They're

also probably better at intelligence

collection than any country in the

world. So there again and and again

because they're an advanced economy

because you know they're people

generally speaking want to live in peace

and harmony just want to go to work and

raise their kids there are a lot of

shared interests and a lot of shared

objectives and I think that you know

over time especially for example when

one of our biggest problems going back

to you know the early 2000s was the rise

of Islamic terrorism um Islamic radical

terrorism I should say there was a sort

of broad recognition that there's a lot

for us to work on but but again even

even if you go back to then the early

2000s,

very large alignment between Israeli

interests and American interests. But

even in like the early 2000s, the

Israelis were much more worried about

Iran than the United States was, right?

We were much more worried about

al-Qaeda, like a different branch of

Islamic terrorism. So even when we've

been very aligned, we're just different

countries that have different

objectives. And you know, I will say

having seen the president of United

States operate, I feel quite confident

that, you know, they are the junior

partner. We're the senior partner. We're

the world's superpower. That's the way

that it works. But, you know, again,

sometimes it's it's like with the UK. I

would say the UK is our closest ally,

our oldest ally. I'm not just saying

that because you're a Brit.

>> Do you trust the UK?

>> Uh, again, I don't really trust anybody,

but do I like do I like a lot of Brits?

Absolutely. Do I have a I mean,

incredible fondness for the United

Kingdom as a country and a culture.

Absolutely. And I really like a lot of

the people even in the Labor government,

even though they're politically

misaligned uh with with me and and the

rest of the Trump administration. But

you know like we have disagreements from

time to time. So we work really well

together and sometimes we have

misaligned interests and we have to

pursue our interests in the best way we

can.

>> What does and please do tell me like

what does Netanyahu want because I sit

here with these experts and they say

they want to overtake the whole of the

Middle East. They want to run the Middle

East.

>> What does he want?

>> I don't know. I don't know. Um

>> I Well, I mean I I I don't I can't get

inside somebody's head.

>> Have you asked them what they want? What

do you think? Well, I I think that in

this particular operation, again, where

interests were aligned is we wanted

Iranian conventional military power to

be much weaker, to be decimated. You

know, the the Israelis shared that

objective. Do I think that there are

maybe I don't know if BB thinks this,

but do I think there are people within