How did Graham Platner, a political

unknown a year ago, come from nowhere to

so thoroughly dominate the primary that

Janet Mills, the sitting governor of

Maine, dropped out [music] or suspended

her campaign, I should say, and didn't

even come back in as Platner was rocked

by even more scandals. Now, the national

pundits, the political establishment,

they keep looking for that one story,

that one headline, that one moment in my

life that they can define the campaign

by. But in trying so hard to understand

me, they failed to understand that this

is not about me at all. This is a

movement about us.

The answer is that he had [music] the

most important political resource right

now and she was not able to grab any of

it. That resource is attention. It's a

constant theme now for me on the show

that you need to see attention as its

own substrate of American politics. And

attention is working in really unusual

ways this year in the Michigan

Democratic primary for Senate where

Abdul Alied is now in the lead.

>> Who here believes in Medicare for all?

[cheering]

And who believes it's time to abolish

ICE? [cheering]

>> And who believes we got to get MONEY OUT

OF POLITICS AND IN YOUR pocket

[cheering]

>> in Texas where James Terico, another

person people hadn't really heard of a

couple years ago, is now the Democratic

nominee for Senate.

>> One thing is clear today. We're about to

take back Texas. [cheering]

in Los Angeles where we actually saw it

fail in the mayoral candidacy of Spencer

Pratt.

>> Reality TV star Spencer Pratt's

insurgenting campaign for LA mayor has

officially run its course.

>> These corrupt crooks really do look out

for each other, don't they?

>> What's happening with John Of and the

sudden rise in interest in what he's

doing.

>> He's a failed president and a national

disgrace.

>> All of it has a lot of lessons, I think,

for how attention is working right now

in American politics. To help me unpack

them, I want to have on my favorite

person to talk about this particular

topic with, my friend Chris Hayes.

>> Good evening from New York. I'm Chris

Hayes, host of AllIn with [music] Chris

Hayes and author of the great book on

attention in the modern moment, The

Sirens [music] Call: How Attention

Became the World's Most Endangered

Resource. As always, my email if you

need our attention. Ezra Klein show at

[music] NY Times.com.

[music]

Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show.

>> Always great to be back.

>> So, I want to have you here for one of

our every so often check-ins on how

attention is working in American

politics. And I wanted to start with a

Wall Street Journal interview uh that

was with the people who recruited Graham

Platner.

>> How did you find Graham Platner?

>> Well, so I mean we went through

thousands and thousands of prospects. Um

we, you know, through a number of means,

you know, assessed just a huge amount of

people. Then, you know, Liam pulled up

this video of this guy with an oyster

farm.

>> My name is Graham Platner and I live in

Sullivan, Maine, the owner of Frenchman

Bay Oyster Company.

>> And then she pulled up his FC history

and saw, you know, the money he had

given to Bernie Sanders and, you know,

some other people. Um, and that was

enough information to know that we had

the best prospect that we'd maybe ever

seen.

>> Okay, I want to flesh this out because

I've been told this story by multiple

people.

this group like they were like who could

run in Maine,

>> right?

>> Like lobster farmer, oyster farmer, some

kind of fisherman.

>> And so when he says we looked at

thousands of people like the computer

looked through occupational and other

forms of records,

>> right?

>> It was like which lobster farmers like

who has donated to a populist candidate?

which is to say that, you know, we

normally think of candidates

as being, you know, recruited because

they're important in their communities.

They're a lawyer, they run a hospital,

something like that. A lot of people

grow up wanting to run for office. But

Graham Platner was cast, right? It was

like like Hollywood looking for somebody

to fill a role.

>> There's a long history there. I mean,

the Democrats are running someone in a

in in Tom Keane's district who's a like

helicopter pilot. Mikey Cheryl was a

helicopter pilot. They like, you know,

that's that that's a bio. That's

>> Abigail Spanberger, a former CIA.

>> Exactly. So, like that part of it is an

interesting version of a sort of

grassroots lefty populist group doing

what the DRIP will do or the DSC.

>> But the reason this worked was because

of the charisma. And charisma at one

level it's like I do think there's a

kind of full circle thing happening in

politics which is like of course

charisma is important to politics. But

[snorts] I think particularly at the

level of scale, there was a period where

the formula really didn't take into

account charisma. Yes,

>> it was like bio, social capital,

connections, ability to raise money, all

that stuff. And then like whatever,

we'll cut some ads for them. We'll get

them a good team and they'll be fine. I

think charisma matters much more now

because attention matters more and

charisma is the talent for grabbing and

holding attention. So I I want to hold

on what you just said about the DC

because I think we both know a fair

amount about the way they recruit.

>> And one of the grim realities of how

they recruit is they very heavily

emphasize how much money you can raise.

>> One, they will force you to sit on the

phone 6 hours a day.

>> Yep.

>> 6 hours a day. And and they will punish

you if you don't, right? You want to be

on things like their red toblue lists.

And so I know candidates who are just

browbeaten into being on the phone

raising money for hours and hours and

hours a day.

>> And the DC the which is the sort of the

Democratic Congressional Campaign

Committee isn't doing that because

they're cynics or they have a fetish for

it.

>> They love money. You you need money. But

the thing money is buying

>> uh largely is attention. I mean it also

buys field and organizing and other

things but it buys attention. It buys

TV. And so what what this group is doing

when they they cast Platner, he's not a

person who you go to and think, can you

raise the money to buy attention.

>> He's a person you go to and think, can

you like unleash the charisma to earn

attention?

>> Yes. Exactly.

>> Which then will bring in money.

>> Yes.

>> But even if it doesn't, attention. And

this is the point is that you have to I

think you have to have a theory of

attention for a successful campaign

right now in a way that when that

formula was as dead set as it was in the

kind of you know high point of broadcast

TV ads right like raise as much money as

possible hit the airways with a ton of

broadcast TV and that's the that's the

recipe that's 90% of a campaign as

broadcast TV particularly and as

broadcast TV ads decline in their

salience, right? You have to have some

alternate theory of how you're going to

get to people. In some places, like in

North Carolina with Roy Cooper, like

everyone in the state knows who Roy

Cooper is,

>> right? He doesn't have the same problem.

The guy's been elected statewide, I

think, five times at this point,

something like that. So, he doesn't have

to do that. But if you're running

another race, you do have to come up

with some theory of how you're going to

do it. In this case, it was casting and

then it was finding a person who

genuinely has real obvious raw political

talent and charisma.

>> Okay. But we're underelling here the

accomplishment of Platner because they

are running in that race ultimately

against a Roy Cooperlike figure. Yes. In

Janet Mills. Yes.

>> This is not a situation where there is

an open primary of nobodies. It's not a

situation where they're going into a

place like Nebraska where they recruited

Dan Osborne, the the independent who

ran, you know, a cycle ago and is

running again um this cycle. This is a

situation where Chuck Schumer and the

Democratic Senate campaign committee had

a candidate in mind, right? They have a

Democratic governor of Maine and they're

going to run the Democratic governor of

Maine against Mills to pick up that

seat. And what happens just very very

very quickly is that Platner squeezes

Mills out intentionally. She just the

charisma gap between them

>> and the ability that he has to command

attention

>> particularly online but that then

translates into all other forms of

attention cuz like the newspapers follow

it, the cable news follows it. He's on

your show.

>> He also

>> he knocks out a sitting governor, right?

But he also I mean this is the other

part of it is he out campaigns her in

that state on the ground like it's not

just the online part of it. I mean and

again this is part of attention too.

Maine is a small state right? I mean

Maine is a state where you know Susan

Collins

>> at this point knows like literally knows

a shockingly high percentage of mayors

right [laughter] this is just the way it

works when you're an institution like

her. It's the kind of state where you

can make inroads in retail politics in a

way that you can't the California

governor's race. Right. So part of it

too is that he just outworks her. But I

think that much younger than she is. I

mean Mills is a 78year-old candidate.

>> Yes. And I think there's actually an

interesting relation here between

attention

and risk appetite because I think the

two are so related. I think a lot of the

things that have

guided Democratic politics around

attention have also related to risk

aversion.

Don't get negative press. If you're

choosing between no press and negative

press, minimize downsides. Okay? Other

people could have run that primary. They

knew that Schumer was trying to recruit

Mills. She actually got in after Platner

officially. Almost all of the bigname

politicians in the state of Maine went

for the governor's race,

>> right, which was going to be vacated. it

wasn't going to have a sitting incumbent

and you weren't going to take on the

electoral colossus of Susan Collins.

That's a lower risk choice.

>> Platner made a high-risisk bet and I do

think there's a relationship between

risk appetite and attention that's

very much part of Democratic politics

which is there is a kind of

institutional

lowrisk appetite.

>> I want to pick up on the word

institution there. So Democratic Party,

the Republican party pre-Trump is like

this too.

They choose people who succeed in

institutions. So I mean if you think

about the the candidates after Barack

Obama, right? Hillary Clinton, Joe

Biden, um in a different way, Kla

Harris, right? They're all people they

they were not electoral juggernauts,

right? Clinton lost to Barack Obama,

>> but she was beloved within the

Democratic party at that time. Joe Biden

was Barack Obama's vice president. And

it kind of goes down like this.

I think that there is an inverse

relationship between the personality

type.

>> Yes.

>> That succeeds institutionally and the

personality type that succeeds

attentionally.

>> That's true.

>> I think it is related to what you're

talking about with risk.

>> Yeah.

>> But I think it has created an almost

structural problem in party recruiting

>> because parties as you were noting they

look for all these signals that are

fundamentally signals of institutional

capacity. Yeah.

>> Social capital,

>> right?

>> Ability to raise money. Uh jobs tend to

have risen through the institutions. I

mean, Platner is a downwardly mobile

oyster farmer whose oyster farm doesn't

really make money and sells to his mom's

fancy restaurant. Right. He is not, you

wouldn't just look at it and think that

guy is the most impressive person in

Maine. Right.

>> Right. It's not like Mikey Cheryl as a

Navy pilot, you know? But the people who

succeed in institutions are often do not

have

personalities

that are

spiky in the way the attentional moment

currently rewards. So I think that's

true. I think there's a few things going

on. One is we should talk about success

in institutions and credentiing which

are sort of two different things, right?

You know it means a lot in the world of

democratic progressive politics if

someone went to Yale law. So there's the

credential part of it. There's actual

success in institutions. There's

relationships to those institutions. And

then there's a kind of personalities

that succeed in those institutions. The

old term that you would use in the 50s

and 60s, right, in a different era was

like a company man, right? And like a

company man is someone that gets along

well with others in an organizational

setting. Um doesn't make waves, doesn't

upset people. And I think the idea of a

company man is kind of what has been the

template again almost necessarily,

right? I mean, if you like as you said

at the beginning of this part of the

conversation, the Democratic Party is an

institution. One thing that Platner is

able to carry in a way that feels

authentic is a genuine feeling that the

system is hollow at its core.

You know, people talk about

>> which is not a put on with him. I which

is the key part of this.

>> I think that's really yes I think that's

important. I mean you can say a lot

about his life and what he has done or

has not done and we'll talk about some

of that too.

>> But he is somebody who believes the

institutions have failed because they

have failed for him and he has failed

out of them.

>> Right. The hostility is authentic.

>> Yes. And [snorts] when you listen to him

on the stump

more than he is carrying a message about

singlepayer healthcare or a green new

deal, he is carrying a message about uh

you know in a very different way I think

than Bernie did but using similar

language about an unspecified political

revolution. He's carrying a message

about

this is all wrong somehow.

>> Yeah. And what you need is somebody who

fundamentally believes it is all wrong

somehow.

>> The world that we live in today is not

natural.

We do not live in a political and

economic reality that is organic.

It is a system that is built by policy

decisions. Policy that is written by

establishment politicians in Washington

DC at the behest of their donors and

their supporters. And it is a system

that was made to make sure that no

matter how hard you work, you will never

feel like you have power. Power is for

these people. And they're up there.

They're qualified. They have the

pedigree. They have the background.

They're the ones that are allowed to

make decisions for us. Don't worry

ourselves. Let them take care of it.

Well, I'm going to tell you right now,

that story is [ __ ] And you can look

across a lot of the candidates who are

succeeding right now. You know, here I

do think Bomb Donnie, you know, is a,

you know, fits in. We'll talk about

Abdul say. Donald Trump was obviously

like this. A large number of the

candidates who have broken through are

breaking through with a

with a a a message more even than an

agenda

of like genuine

disillusionment. Yes.

>> And anger.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's a

few related questions. So, one, I think

people use the term populism, which I

think gets probably as close as any to

what we're describing as a tendency. Um,

you know, disillusionment, frustration

with a failed status quo, elite failure

particularly. So, there's a few

interesting questions that flow out of

that. One is, does that have a specific

ideological veilance? Can you be a

moderate populist, right? Can you be a

centrist populist is one interesting

question. Another is um can you channel

the attentional politics when you are

suddenly in the

incumbent position? I want to pick up on

something you said about being a

moderate populist. You can be a moderate

populist. And you know how we know that?

Because there was one in Maine,

>> right?

>> The Democrat in the House representing

the reddest district in the country

>> is Jared Golden. Um he's a Maine member

of Congress. He's a populist who was a

Bernie Sanders supporter. He is also a

moderate. You know, he kind of famously

wrote this opet about how Donald Trump

wouldn't be the end of the world. He

supported Donald Trump on tariffs, but

he is also very, very pro- labor. He's

very, you know, disgusted with politics.

>> And he has existed in a kind of

politically miserable existence.

>> Yes,

>> he's been holding a seat probably no

other Democrat could hold.

>> And in fact, he's leaving now.

>> And he is this year getting primared

from the left.

and he decided, "I'm done. I'm

retiring." You know, you could have

imagined a world where the Democratic

party, you know, fell in love with this

guy, embraced him, and elevated him to

run against Susan Collins. And in that

world, I'd be like, Susan Collins is

gone.

>> Like, she is gone. Um, but I think the

the issue you see with Jared Golden in

moderate populism is that you become

very vulnerable in primaries.

>> Yes. because on both the right but now

on the left I mean the polling on this

is really fascinating if you look at the

number of Democrats who said they were

very liberal in say 1995 right you know

most Democrats were not liberal or very

liberal in 1995 like they self-described

as moderate and now it's like very

liberal um it's very hard to survive and

it's also just very unpleasant

>> yes it's very that that part of it is a

big part of it

>> even if you can survive the daytoday of

being like yelled at by the advocacy

groups on your side by your own friends.

The thing that you cannot seem to do

right now is hold that together with

being a successful candidate in

primaries where you are having to appeal

to a high attention electorate with very

very very sorted political opinions

>> and you have right particularly in this

sort of nationalized attentional

atmosphere. I mean, that's part of it,

too. Like, in another universe,

people, no one online is paying

attention to what Jared Golden's doing,

right? Like, you could be Jared Golden

for your district and like the local

news would cover you and the, you know,

the local TV news, the newspapers, maybe

some, you know, some nerds would read

about you and roll call because we're

all operating in one attentional sphere.

There's there's little there's less and

less room for that sort of variation

that used to just come about because

like people just didn't pay pay

attention to what the main two

congressional candidate was doing.

>> I think it's like brings up some of the

the the flip side of Platner and one

reason I think Platner is such an

interesting figure to start with here is

he

represents both sides of the gamble

being made, right? The high-risk high

attention charisma on the one hand. On

the other hand, the point of getting

this high-risk candidate with a sort of

anti-institutional life story is you're

not getting somebody who has been

watching his step for a long time. And

you're getting somebody who's maybe

missteped quite a lot. So, you've got

the Nazi tone cuff tattoo on the chest

>> and this kind of pulsing question about

whether or not he knew about that

>> of I'm honestly a little skeptical that

he did not know about it for as long as

he says he didn't.

>> I share that skepticism. Um, you have

him texting uh seems like about a half

dozen women during this marriage

>> or at least, you know, texting with them

in in in an effort to um

set up some kind of relationship. Also,

there'll be some claims from an

ex-girlfriend, the one who works in

Republican politics, that he was, you

know, borderline abusive when they

fought.

>> I've had this trouble with Platiner

because on the one hand, I've had him

very charismatic. much of what he says I

like.

No particular thing that has come out

about him has been I mean he's also he's

very politically incorrect Reddit post

is maybe the best way to put it.

>> Nothing that's come out about him on its

own has been disqualifying for me. I

don't think he's anti-semite. He's he

was so politically incorrect on Reddit

that if he weren't anti-semite I think

we would know [laughter]

I think I think that one would have come

out pretty clearly.

>> That's a good point.

>> I think I think he knew what the tattoo

was earlier.

>> Yeah. And I think the spirit in which

he, this is my view of him, right? This

is not based on anything but my reader's

situation. The spirit in which he and

his friends got it was edge lordy. It

was about it as a signal of a kind of

vicious badasserie,

>> not a signal about Jews or Nazis. That's

my view. Um I don't have I cannot prove

it, but I'm telling you what I think.

>> The the thing that worries me about

Platiner isn't any one thing. It is the

sense that there is just bad judgment in

the guy. I mean the the the sexing with

like the women's is like it's early in a

marriage and that's pretty recent.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. The the thing that worries me

about platiner isn't kind of any one of

these things individually. It's that you

know one thing about a guy who's failed

out of a bunch of institutions and has

kind of been downwardly mobile and has

made a bunch of weird decisions and had

a kind of Nazi tattoo is you might think

yeah I want the best for him. I hope for

all the best for him.

>> Should he be a US senator?

>> Should he be a US senator is a very

different question than that, right?

Yes. I mean, what I h if I were

appointing people from Maine, would I

appoint Graham Platner? Like I would

not. But that's also not how right

>> elections work.

>> Yeah. We have the 17th amendment, right?

[laughter]

>> Yes. But but so that I think is but

here's like the thing. He's not run in a

general election yet. [snorts] Susan

Collins overperforms in polls. He has

been

>> totally

>> generating attention and energy among

Democrats and among particularly like

the online left and whether or not it

creates an attack surface that you know

you can attack this guy is fundamentally

unreliable

>> which is what they will do

>> which is what they are doing

>> are doing

>> with a lot of money.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh if Democrats win that seat maybe this

all looks genius. If they lose that

seat, I I think there's going to be like

a level of factional hell to pay. So,

let me say that I basically share

essentially share everything you said

like could and have made those

arguments. Let me just for the sake of

this conversation

>> take the other side for a second.

>> One is they did run someone in 2020 who

was the most standard possible

>> state legislator. no scandal to speak

of, raised a ton of money, a woman, and

she got her butt kicked.

>> Yeah.

>> In fact, she lost by like I think nine

points, right?

>> When she was up in all the polls, she

was up in all the polls.

>> Part of why people are so nervous about

this race.

>> They're nervous about the race. But the

other thing is it's not like that was

not tried against Susan Collins. It was

tried. It didn't work. The second thing

I would say, and this goes back to our

risk thing, is there were like five

people in that gubanatorial primary.

They could have run for Senate.

>> Mhm. Like the big names of Maine all ran

for governor. So part of this is a

little like everyone's sort of bringing

their hands. It's like well you have to

have people running.

>> Totally.

>> They didn't run. He ran.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you want? Like what is the magic

wand that makes them run? And they

didn't run because that was a harder

race.

>> The third thing I would say is

I think there's a theory of the case

here and I'm not saying this is true.

I'm just presenting it as a possibility

is that part of the brand problem for

the Democrats has been excessive

conscientiousness.

>> Yes.

>> That this is the party of essentially

kind of like school marm tisktisking.

Now that's extremely gendered. I want to

be very clear about that. Um and I think

a lot of the conversation about plat on

both sides of the very intense polarized

debate within the Democratic coalition

is very gendered. That said, I think

it's, you know, there is a kind of

postcoid hangover of the sort of idea

that the Democrats are just this like

again this kind of like quick to cancel,

tell you what you can and can't do,

kicking people out who talk a little

salty, etc.

I think there's something to that. I

think there's a particularly something

to that with a certain subset of

crossressured swing voters.

And maybe this is a kind of antidote to

it.

>> Yeah. Maybe maybe none of this is

negative for him,

>> right? Like the Reddit post people have

joined me as a joke. The Reddit posts

are the median voter, right? That's the

joke people made.

>> When I saw the Reddit post, I was like

that's a asset,

>> right? I don't have to agree with them

or like them to be like that's a

political asset. I mean, this is a line

I I I say all the time, but and at some

point need to like spin out into an

essay, but the personality type of the

left is bureaucratic and the personality

type of the right is autocratic.

>> Yeah. And and those are failures, right?

That that the the left is another

version of it that I use is the left is

overformed by institutions and the right

is underformed by institutions. Well

said,

>> but you can imagine a world where

Platiner loses

>> or doesn't win by as much as he could

have. And the answer is simply like you

kind of almost got it right with him.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you just pick somebody like a

little too underformed, right? You don't

want the straight A student

>> and you don't want the kid smoking pot

in the parking lot. You need something

sort of

>> right. He needs something sort of in

between there. But uh but but but the

question is really we're going to see a

test of whether or not this works in

>> of whether or not this works in Maine.

It's going to be very very interesting

>> totally

>> to see how that plays out.

>> Can I say two more things about him? So

one is I think the way that I also think

there's something interesting in how he

has handled the last few weeks.

He has been doing a lot of press

>> and I I think this is another thing

where you have to if you're going to do

it you got to be all in which is you're

going to go and you're face questions

and you're going to talk to people and

that is I think one of the lessons of

our new era of the dynamics of scandal

whatever they are is that attention

moves very quickly and if you embrace

that and you're like talk to people you

can move through things in a way that

used to be very difficult.

>> Yeah.

>> And then the last thing I'll say about

Platner, I think this is a really

important aspect of his appeal. People

have talked about the fact, oh, he went

to a private school and his grandfather

was this famous architect and his mom

has this restaurant. Um,

>> dad bought his house.

>> Dad bought his house. This is a guy who

was enlisted.

>> Mhm.

>> An enlisted Marine during the global war

on terror in multiple tours fighting in

really brutal circumstances. Mhm. And

here is what I why I think that's

politically salient. He has an ability

to, for lack of a better word, code

switch. I think code switching is

actually like one of the superpowers of

a successful Democratic politician

because the Democratic party is so

varied and diverse and pluralistic. You

have to move between different groups.

And it's hard to learn how to do that

without some organic experience in

different worlds. Graham Platner really

genuinely has that. It gives him that

thing where he's able to talk to

different audiences. Barack Obama really

had it. Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton,

Alexandria Okasiocortez,

all of these people,

you know, Bill Clinton was like,

>> that's interesting. Does Okasiocortez

have code switching at that level?

>> I think she does actually. And I think

one of the things that you see also, you

saw this with Obama, you saw it with

you, you know, they used to call Barack

Obama in the right-wing press Barry

because he was Barry in high school at a

certain point. The idea being this guy's

inauthentic. He's not really who you

think he is. He's pretending to be this

thing. The flip side of that is this is

a person who's had many different

experiences in radically different life

worlds that has given this person an

organic ability to connect across

difference. that proves to be the

superpower in Democratic politics.

>> Take a beat on Okasiocortez here because

it it's something I'm really interested

to see with her. I think nobody knows if

she's going to run for president. I'm

not sure she knows if she's going to run

for president. She is a tremendous

political talent by any measure. But

unlike say a Bernie Sanders or as we

were just saying a Graham Platner, she

stays away from disagreement. Mhm.

>> You do not see her doing what Bernie

does, what Roana does.

>> She's not on flagrant.

>> No,

>> she's not out there with Lex Freedman.

>> No,

>> she I mean, she just did a thing with

More Perfect Union, which is like a

lefty content producer, you know,

talking to Trump voters, but in a very

>> controlled environment.

>> Controlled environment. Right. She's not

on Jubilee, which Roana and for that

matter, James Telerico went on. And I

think one of the biggest questions for

her is actually whether she is

comfortable. Yeah, that's interesting.

>> Either switching into places that are

not natural alliances for her

>> or um being herself in those places.

Gavin Newsome is doing this everywhere

right now, right? He will go anywhere he

is asked and he particularly wants to go

to places where it's going to be unusual

to see him there. She runs a very very

very

careful operation. Yes.

>> And often when she is in spaces where

she's not comfortable like the

>> Munich Security conference,

>> it can get hairy for her. She can sort

of fumble.

>> And Congressman, I'll start with you.

Would and should the US actually commit

US troops to defend Taiwan if China were

to move? Um, you know, I think that uh

this is such a uh you know, I I think

that

this is a um

this is of course a a very long-standing

um

policy.

>> I I mean, if I were her adviser, and I'm

not, I think the problem is she's not

doing enough. So [snorts] she's not

getting the sea legs and not getting

comfortable with things going wrong and

also not getting the sort of like

swiftness to to sort of rescue them when

they do. Right? You remember that Gavin

do something a couple months ago where

he's doing a book talk and he's like I'm

just like you to a mostly black

audience.

>> I'm like you. I'm no better than you.

You know I'm a 960 SAT guy.

>> It's like my SAT sucked and I can barely

[laughter] read.

>> I can barely read. Yeah.

>> Like it looked really bad. it was

everywhere for a couple days, but then

you just go do something else. It just

keeps moving forward.

>> Partly though, I think all of these

calculations about risk, reward,

control, lack of control, how much

you're going in is is what your own

personal

position is with respect to attention,

right? Because she is so commanding of

it, she has the luxury to take much more

sort of conservative stances about what

press she does.

>> Mhm.

>> And I think that's a trade-off. I agree

with you that like there's probably a

degree to which more would be better.

>> Taylor Swift doesn't need to do a lot of

interviews.

>> Exactly. That's exactly it. But she just

doesn't have to go

>> Yeah. Whereas chasing around Jubilee

like

>> Yeah. Roan is everywhere because he is

trying to build like attentional

strength. I want to move to Michigan. Uh

what let's start here. Do you want to

just give a overview of the Michigan

Senate Democratic primary?

I mean, you have a situation in which

you have a departing incumbent

Democratic senator, Gary Peters, who's

retiring. So, you have an open seat. You

have a a very, I would say, from the

Republican perspective, high quality

recruit for the Republican side, who is

Republican Congressman Mike Rogers, who

is truly out of like normie Republican

kind of central casting. Like if you're

trying to win a swing state, he is not,

you know, he he's not some Peter Teal

weirdo who's going to do an ad with his

gun silencer.

>> This is designed to kill people. I'm

Blake [music] Masters. I'm running for

the US Senate in Arizona.

>> And then on the Democratic side, you've

got Abdullah Sayed, who is a really

fascinating dude who was a public health

official in Detroit. He's a he's a road

scholar. Um

>> MD PhD.

>> MD PhD. incredibly credential,

>> has run statewide and lost for governor.

>> Exactly. And but is very very

charismatic. Um extremely bright too.

>> Had a crooked media podcast.

>> Had a crooked media podcast. I don't

know if you've you know I've spoken to

him at length. He's

>> an incredibly impressive dude. Just in

terms of like he's a really smart guy

who knows a lot of stuff. Um you have a

state senator Mallerie McMorro um who

has been kind of like a I would say like

a charismatic upandcomer in national

politics even when she was a relatively

obscure state rep.

>> Yeah. Starting with this big speech he

gave after being accused of being a

groomer. Yes.

>> So, I want to be very clear right now.

Call me whatever you want. I hope you

brought in a few dollars. I hope it made

you sleep good last night. I know who I

am. I know what faith and service means

and what it calls for in this moment.

We will not let hate win.

>> But she also has good like good video

content.

>> Yeah, she's [clears throat] very

charismatic. you know, like a year ago

if I were doing this, I'd be like

Mallerie McMorro, like one of the big

attentional like emergent attentional

stars.

>> And then you have the person who I think

there's reporting to indicate that I

think and it's probably true that Haley

Stevens who's a sitting uh congresswoman

um who is I think probably the

establishment choice to see was

recruited by the establishment in part.

Um, and what's happened is she has not

taken off and she's not of the three

candidates, whatever you think about

Haley Stevens issue positions, her

qualifications, whether she'd be a good

senator, like I think she's the least

potentially gifted of the three.

>> Um, and I think the polling indicates

that right now Abdul Elsite is probably

in the lead. He's gotten a huge amount

of benefit from

sort of the the the Bernie faction of

the party. Streamer Hassan [ __ ] who did

it came and did a a rally with him which

was both controversial but got a ton of

attention. And in a first pass to post

again first pass the post primary split

field. What do you have to get? You got

to get 30% 35% of the vote 38% of the

vote. So I want to talk about this

primary because first in one way Abdul

said is like the opposite candidate from

Graham Platner, right? He he is

attentionally capable but he is not a

outside the institution, right? Like

he's a guy who he taught at Columbia,

>> the road scholar.

>> Road scholar.

>> He's like the ultimate brass ring of

credentiing in the American meritocracy

is worn on his hand.

>> Yes. Uh he has run before and lost. He

when people talk about candidates who

have wanted to be in public office for a

very long time, he is one of those

candidates.

>> And if you like look at the polling in

this race, you look at Poly Market or

Kelsey in this race,

>> you can see that he did not walk in and

start dominating it, what happened was

that he started centering

Israel and Gaza. Hassan [ __ ] coming was

part of this and the the role per played

in this to me when the way at least I

observed it happening. It's not that it

was Piker's endorsement or something

that mattered. It's that per himself was

so controversial that outside groups

like Third Way and then the other two

candidates attacked.

>> Yep. And in attacking they centered

Israel and Gaza which turned the like

Israel and Gaza is like an attentional

superconductor.

>> Yes, it is

>> right. It is like no other issue with

the exception maybe Donald Trump himself

in American life and for an engaged

Democratic primary electorate

>> Abdul Aliad is more on the right side of

that issue.

>> Yes. And so I I think you're saying

something that's going to be very

important about attentions like there

are certain issues in any moment like

his background the way I came to know

him as a political figure is Medicare

for all.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. he emerges in politics, you know,

Bernie Sanders guy and like like his

whole thing is Medicare for all and like

he still believes in that and

>> and from a healthare a public health

>> from a public health perspective but

what has happened here is that there

like a lot of attention on Israel and

Gaza and it has become like the defining

issue and and Michigan obviously very

big Arab population right so

>> and also the Haley Stevens component of

this right because I mean we should we

should give the backstory here which is

that

>> you [snorts] know Haley Stevens primary

to Andy Lemon. Andy Lemon was was this,

you know, labor organizer

and very kind of

two-state solution Israel critical

Jewish lefty

>> synagogue president.

>> Synagogue president who was who had like

a ton of Apac money dumped on his head.

>> Yeah.

because he was insufficiently loyal to

the essentially the Netanyahu line and

Stevens knocked him off as part of that

effort. And the other thing I would say

is and I think this is incredibly

dangerous for the folks who spend their

time worrying about America's

relationship to Israel and defense of

Israel.

you have a situation in which you have

kind of stacked these different things

at top each other where it's like money

and politics, the establishment, the

failed status quo, the pro-Israel lobby

are all stacked at top each other and

very hard to disentangle. And so being

the populist insurgent against the

status quo,

your criticism as Israel, your criticism

of the war in Gaza, your views on that

put you across these incredibly salient

divides that sort of reach up and down

from the actual issue of Gaza. And

>> I I wrote a piece on this when all the

attacks were centering on [ __ ] and and

one of the points of that piece was that

it is going to be very very very

important to break the effort to

conflate

>> yes

>> anti-semitism and Zionism and it is

going to only become more important as

Israel's actual actions make anti-ionism

a more popular and

like morally compelling position.

position among progressively minded

people.

>> I mean, look, you can look at polling of

young Jews,

>> right?

>> Right. How many of them want a one-state

solution? It's pretty high now.

>> So, I will say also, and it's worth

playing this, I thought Abdul say

himself

>> had a very, very good answer

disentangling this.

>> What do you say to the Jewish community

who you're going to want to vote for you

about your positions on Israel, on Apac

funding, etc., uh and and how they

shouldn't feel alienated by a candidate

like you.

>> Well, Kate, I'll tell you this. Nobody

understands what it's like to be

discriminated against for how you pray,

like someone who gets discriminated

against for how we pray. And most of the

time, we don't ask how we pray. Most

people are asking, "What do you pray

for?" And I pray for peace and dignity

and basic goodness for all of our kids,

whether they're Jewish kids who are

neighboring a couple houses down from me

or my kids who are Muslim. And I'll tell

you that it's really important for us to

be able to differentiate between

Judaism, the Jewish people, Jewish

culture, Jewish contributions to this

country, which are vast, and Apac and

Israel. Those are two different things.

I, when I'm elected, will be the chief

opposition to what the Egyptian

government does. Now, my family

immigrated from Egypt. That doesn't make

me anti-Egyptian. That just means that I

want my tax dollars to be spent here

rather than sent over there to cement

the chokeold of a military dictatorship

on its own people. And I apply the same

exact principles to Israel. I don't want

my tax dollars being spent to backtop

backs stop apartheid and genocide when

they could be used to provide things

like glasses or healthcare or schools

for our own kids. And I worry that a lot

of times people want to use the the word

anti-semitism to spread to defend a

foreign government. And I think it's

just really important for us to

differentiate between those two because

I don't want to be held accountable to

what another government does simply

because I share ethnicity with the

people who live there. And I know the

same for my Jewish sisters and brothers.

>> I remember a sign that was put up in Los

Angeles. I saw a picture of in 2008.

It was on a lampost and it was during

the Hillary Iraq primary. And the sign

was a campaign sign and it had one

sentence and it said she voted for the

war. Mhm. And it was like that's all you

need to know. Like that vote for the

Iraq war that was the thing that was the

reason Hillary Clinton lost that

primary. ultimately there's a million

reasons and she came very close and talk

relitigated but that was the thing

>> I know a lot of uh particularly like

older Jews who will say to me I I don't

understand why get so much attention

>> right

>> you know look at what China's doing to

the weaguers or

>> and one of the things I I say I'm is

that they are making themselves a center

of attention right they they really

pushed hard to have America join them in

a war they've expanded the scope of that

war they have allowed just constant you

know in addition to Netanyahu saying he

wants now 70% of Gaza they have like

allowed and enabled and protected and

caused like a constant stream of

atrocities out of the West Bank you can

it is you can support what Israel is

doing but I don't think you can deny

that is going to come with a tremendous

cost and if you are not willing to have

Israel pay the cost of its actual

actions. I don't think you should be

supporting its actions.

>> I mean, let's let's talk about what

happened in the Israel Day parade here

in New York.

>> Uh in terms of attention

>> so you got this you got the Israel Day

parade. It's happened every year and in

in the context of New York, it has been

a kind of you know cross ideological day

of Jewish unity and solidarity. Now this

year it's controversial for reasons. The

mayor is not going to attend for the

first time uh in a long time. other

politicians will be there.

What happens in that parade? Bezel

Smaltric,

the most one of the most far-right

ministers who's in the Israeli

government, who is, you know, pushed for

along with Bengavir, the law to

execute people by hanging, who has been,

you know, proponent of the settlers and

>> more than that has put out a functional

plan for the expulsion of Palestinians.

what what I think it is reasonable to

call the ethnic cleansing of the West

Bank.

>> Yes. He shows up at the Israel parade

with a bunch of like also hardcore

extremist right-wingers. And they do

>> his attentional politics.

>> His attentional politics. And they do a

bunch of interviews. And he even says to

one of the interviewers, "I love this

parade. It reminds me of Jerusalem Day,"

which of course is like the far-right

parade that happens every year in

Jerusalem where like a very extremist

right-wing Israelis march through

Jerusalem in an act of like very clear

provocation.

>> Yeah. [laughter] like chanting

horrifying things

as a

>> but Smrich says this because he's

playing his own attentional politics

>> but you can't it's like so then after

that it's like well whose fault is it

that people are paying attention to the

parade.

>> Yeah.

>> You know and and you could say well he's

an extremist he doesn't represent he's

in the Israeli government.

>> He's got authority over the West Bank.

>> Yeah. It it actually drives me

completely insane. [laughter]

And it happens all the time in

conversations I'm in. But it it drives

me insane the effort to say that what

these sitting cabinet ministers in

Israel are doing is irrelevant or

they're controversial or

it is what it is. There is

>> they're in power.

>> They're in power. There's also there's a

southern expression I love this throwing

rocks and hiding hands

>> which I love. And there's just also I

feel like this this isn't the Israeli

government but APA pack and and sort of

groups around them and associated super

PACs. There's a lot of throwing rocks

and hiding hands. You've just played in

a succession of the most expensive

congressional races in history like a

set of record setting ones

>> where you have spent the money that have

made them the most expensive. That's

fine. It's America in the post Citizens

United era. People get to do that.

>> What you can't do is be like, why is

everyone focused on us? [laughter] It's

like you spent tens of millions of

dollars to knock people out. Like you

you could do one or the other. You know,

you you you play in these races. You

play in these races, but then you get to

be criticized for it.

>> All right. I want to move to Texas. And

I want to move to

>> Texas is so interesting right now.

>> James Telerico because I think he

he reflects maybe something different

than what we've been talking about. He

is the one case in which I think you can

really see an attentional superstar who

rose during this cycle

>> but did not rise because he was so far

left or so far right. He has I mean I

had him here on the show. It's a great

interview. People should go check it

out. He has bog standard progressive

politics. Now it is connected to a

beautifully articulated Christian moral

framework

but but he's somebody who has broken

through intentionally not by being very

far left

>> or very far right not by choosing a

highly controversial issue but actually

by

frontloading

a religiously rooted decency that in

part got him on Joe Rogan's

podcast

>> and became this signal that maybe he

could do something other Democrats

couldn't and win Texas. So, I'm curious

what you've made of him.

>> Again, I would start with the thing that

we've been saying about a number of

these people, including Platner and I

think Abdo say is that he's he's

charismatic in in again in the ancient

Greek sense. Um, and I think obviously

the the sort of pastoral tradition that

he's coming out of means that he's both

naturally charismatic and also has

access to a set of rhetorical tools that

have been developed literally over

thousands of years [laughter] to grab

and hold people's attention. Right? So,

I think that's a huge part of what's

going on. And again,

I think that connects to this Back to

the Future theme that we keep coming

back to, which is like you can't just

raise money and run ads, right? If you

want to be successful, you got to have

something going on about how you grab

people. And he clearly has that. I think

you're totally right that he's a unicorn

in that it's not connected to that kind

of populist message. In the same way he

is a I think a populist and I think he's

very much framing himself as a sort of

insurgent outside the status quo but

he's not

>> he's really not relying on any kind of

us versus them framework. Um I mean he

does a little bit of the billionaires

but but it's rhetorical flourishing.

>> It's it's not the core in the way

platner and platner is like

>> that is platner's thing. It's what comes

out.

>> This guy is a former president of his

college democrats.

>> Exactly. [laughter]

>> Like he is a different type. He is a

person who has wanted to run for He's a

Teach for America kid,

>> right? He's not

>> such a great

>> person who has been failed by American

institutions.

>> He is not a person who you feel harbors

a great anger

>> at the Democratic establishment. you

know, he's a state representative

>> and and I think that's an interesting

dimension of him, but he also has a

quality that Platner does in a different

way, which is that while I don't I'm not

saying he was cast in the sense that

somebody came out and found him the way

they came out and found Platner,

>> he does look like what he is in the same

way that Platner looks like what he is.

I mean, a lot of people are oyster

farmers or lobstermen,

>> but they don't like you wouldn't see

them on the street and think, well, you

definitely spend all your time on the

water,

>> right? Yes.

>> And like you know Platin looks like a

seaman.

>> Yes.

>> And Telerico like you would cast him

>> as a pastor

>> to play the idealistic young pastor

>> like rooting out corruption.

>> Yes.

>> In a complicated church.

>> Yes. Exactly.

>> Um he just has the whole

>> you could put him in a scene and there

will be blood.

>> And he Right. Exactly. And he rises you

know by

running his social media strategy which

you know eventually gets him on Rogan.

And I think that he also reflects this

yearning people that I think is really

powerful and now is underplayed which is

not just for populism or radicalism or

even inspiration but in the Trump era

for decency.

>> Totally. And there's a yearning for

public virtue which I think is a sort of

funny inversion of some of the politics

of our you know our youth.

>> I talk a lot about virtue on this show.

>> Yeah. And I'm thinking about a lot about

virtue. I think that's partly the

experience of Trump. It's partly that

I'm a middle-aged dad with three kids

and I think a lot about moral

instruction. Um, and

particularly a moral instruction in a

world in which like the most powerful

and famous figure in the country is a

moral degenerate. The other thing I

would say is there's these different

there's different kind of vibratory

levels that

different coalitions play on. And I do

think that like the appeal for

connection,

brother and sisterhood, solidarity,

unity, you know, that was the thing that

Barack Obama was able to marshall.

[snorts] And that's still deep in the

progressive soul. I think I think it's

deep in the American soul. [snorts] It's

the not what Donald Trump Donald Trump

is totally incapable of playing in that

register. I think the Republican party

increasingly in his era is incapable of

playing that register. And and the last

thing I'll say, and I think this this

applies to John Oaf as well.

>> Where we're going next.

>> Oh, good.

>> Uh in when you think about like what's

the opposite of Trump?

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> One typology of the opposite of Trump is

a nice young man.

Like what's the opposite of Trump? It's

like a nice young man. James Rico is a

nice young man.

>> Let let me hold before we go to John Of

and and the different Obama registers.

The nice young man, the what it means to

be nice, the weakness of being nice has

been the main form of attack. The Paxton

campaign has decided to unleash

>> like low ti tofu telerico taperico which

now the telerico campaign has talo

shirts. I think that one was a a Paxton

mistake.

>> But but the the weakness they think they

have sensed

is that people want strength.

>> Yeah. and a nice young man

who wants you to like him

and speaks often of his own humility and

has a vegan girlfriend

is not strong enough for Texas.

>> I mean that's a charitable version.

They're calling him the fsler is what

they're doing. I mean I mean that you're

giving a charitable version of what the

actual

>> Well, and I mean and and actually quite

literally like you know you have Steven

Miller saying the first transgender

candidate, right? You know he's a queer.

It's very schoolyard all of it.

>> Yes. Um when we take a step back just

like cruelty versus kindness. They're

really they're really playing into the

campaign Taller Rico wanted to set up. I

I once heard somebody around the the M

Donnie Cuomo campaign be like they both

got the exact

antagonist they wanted.

>> Yeah, that's a great point.

>> Right. And it just turned out mom Donnie

was right about which antagonist he

wanted and Cuomo wasn't. I

>> in terms of that race and who's making

the right tactical calls. We should just

take a step back and say, you know,

Texas is Texas for a reason. And if you

run a moderately competent campaign with

a moderately competent candidate, you

will win by five points. [laughter]

>> Like, as a Republican,

>> as a Republican, it's just structurally

there. So, you really got to screw

things up,

>> if not more than five points.

>> Yes. I mean, 10 10 to five, right? You

run a bad campaign, it's five. You run a

miserable campaign like Ted Cruz did in

2018, in a really, really good year for

Democrats, you win by two. What I would

say is about Paxton is that he's kind of

the worst of all worlds in this way,

which is that Ken Paxton is someone with

a lot of baggage. He was uh impeached by

a, you know, supermajority Republican

state legislature for corruption. He was

indicted for securities crimes, although

not convicted. He was also not convicted

on his impeachment. His wife recently

divorced him for what she called more

biblical reasons. There were a number of

his ex-staffers who came out with a a

statement where they talked about um

just how awful he was as a boss and in

his public positions. I've covered Ken

Paxton a ton in my journalism career.

You don't hear him talk that much. This

is not a super charismatic guy.

>> Yeah.

>> He's got all the baggage and none of the

charisma. It's a weird combination of

things, but he's there's it's not like

there's some amazing magnetism on the

other side of it. So

if you were setting up the worst kind of

candidate in this era who's got the kind

of all the negatives of sort of

high-risk attentional strategies and

none of the positives, it kind of is Ken

Paxton. Yes. But this is where I think

there's like just something genuinely

interesting about Telerico because he to

me shows

there's actually a lot of pathways in to

breaking out intentionally. It's

generally interesting that Telerico was

able to beat um Jasmine Crockett who is

also like big MSNBC figure. Jasmine

Crockett big on viral video and is not

super guarded and talking pointsy, you

know, that that and I think that's a

good attribute and it, you know, he beat

her in that primary,

>> but it it goes to show I think that

there's probably a lot of different

angles,

>> yes,

>> that you can play here. I think one

thing that these platforms sniff out and

I don't know why but podcasting video

etc. I think they sniff out

inauthenticity that in a way that was

not true when you were giving quotes in

newspapers or going on meet the press or

being on the nightly news. I think

actually inauthentic figures could do

perfectly well there. Somehow

institutions to go back to what we were

talking about institutions don't care

about authenticity. They actually want

you to change who you are to conform to

what they need.

>> Yes.

>> But these sort of anti-institutional

spaces

>> they do. Yeah. There's something about

them where people I always feel this

when people on the show. The first thing

the audience can sense is

inauthenticity. The first thing they can

sense is you not telling them what you

really think.

>> Yeah. And you got to be that I think

that's such a good point that you have

to be

you have to be some version of your

actual self to figure it out and to do

and to do it right. Rahm Emanuel is not,

in my view, likely to be the Democrat's

2028 nominee, but his somewhat unlikely

presidential campaign is going to do

better than I think people realize it's

going to do in being a sort of force in

the primary because he is fundamentally

himself.

>> Totally. Yes.

>> In all places.

>> Yes.

>> And so that allows him to just sort of

attack and run plays and be compelling.

>> And also he's got the to go back to the

risk calculation, he's got nothing to

lose. He can say yes to everything

>> and he's a high-risisk personality.

>> Yeah, he's got a high risk personality.

>> He's an unusual highly institutional

figure who [clears throat]

>> very high risk.

>> Has very very very high risk appetites.

>> Um speaking of 2028, uh I we talked

about AOC a little bit ago and I think

she's one of the big figures here, but

what have you made of John Oasus

emergence

>> as uh like a a cross ideological 2028

dark horse? person who I've been talking

about for a while but Hassan [ __ ] is

talking about you know the Madag

Glaciius is talking right like you know

Michelle Goldberg just did a great piece

on him there's something interesting in

in what people are projecting on to John

Oaf I have been jokingly calling him in

our team Slack the Leisan Algib uh which

is a Dune reference to to the like

[laughter] the the the you know the the

Shalamé figure who is essentially the

kind of chosen one right the the

foretold old prophet. This is a joke

just to be clear. And the reason that I

use that is

>> Jewish Kennedy man.

>> There is something about

the the way that he is performing

his candidacy, the social media videos

that putting out, the fact that he is

very conventionally handsome and young

and could be in a movie like AOC. He's

very controlled in his media.

>> Yeah. He's not playing a volume game.

>> Not playing. I don't see him on podcast

interviews right now.

>> No, not playing a volume game. I think

that he has figured [clears throat] out

a way in a broadly palatable ideological

fashion to leverage a populist moral

critique of the rot of Trump that can

appeal across the different Democratic

factions, which is important,

>> but also he's running for reelection in

a swing state and is right now polling

very well. We'll see what happens. But

if you back up a couple years, if I said

to you in 2024,

which of the or 2022 or whatever, um,

which of Georgia's Democratic senators

is everybody going to be talking about

in 2026

as a 2028

savior? I think the answer would been

Raphael Waro,

>> 100%.

>> And instead, Osaf,

>> yes,

>> is the one people are talking about. And

and I was looking at Raphael Waro's

YouTube page cuz he's doing content, but

it doesn't have any of the visual

grammar. One thing that, you know, you

see in a Mi, you see in a John O, you

see in a James Terrio is we this is not

just a like a an age of algorithms. It's

visual,

>> very visual. And you know, you'll see

Waro and he's like talking in, you know,

the Senate press conference setups and

he's just like in front of American

flags and and OFF they figured out you

you know the clip like immediately when

you see it and OV used to be a

documentarian who did documentaries on

international corruption, right?

>> So there's a background here. This guy

actually knows how to create TV.

>> Yep.

>> About corruption. Y

>> but there's something really interesting

to me about yeah first the scarcity the

the creating want this who is John O

this building anticipation

um plus this figuring out of a visual

grammar

>> that's distinct and wholly your own

>> and looks like Obama

>> yes it does look like Obama

>> looks like it's also the hero shot

>> it's always a hero shot which was a

constant you remember there's an

>> you got to be skinny for that to work I

just want for anyone else who's taking

notes out there in production you You

got to be pretty thin for that hero

shot.

>> There was a great the hero shot being

this sort of 3/4 upwards angle

>> and otherwise you get a lot of chins.

>> Yeah, you get a lot of chips.

>> And there was this great onion article

on Obama uh something like Obama

accidentally stares too far into future

[laughter]

>> because he was he was very good at this

>> and the off shot is always

>> it's always like this like he doesn't

seem like he's looking at a crowd.

>> He's looking past the crowd. [laughter]

>> No, you're right. And I do think it's

true that kind of visual branding is so

interesting. There's one other dimension

of Osaf that I think is really worth

mentioning in terms of 2028 um and which

is that he's Jewish.

>> Yes.

>> And and a genuine Israel critic. to see

this is so I think

to go back to what we were saying about

that Michigan race

there's no way of getting around the

fractures in the party on Gaza Israel

perceptions of anti-semitism perceptions

of undue influence by the Israel lobby

like

the coalition contains both elements

and someone's going to have to figure

out how to thread that needle. And if I

were if you were asking me what that

person might look like, I would say the

first Jewish nominee in history who is

also a critic of Israel would be one

recipe to thread a very difficult needle

for the the coalition.

>> Yeah. And the point here is that OV has

substance on this. So he early on sent

onto a Bernie Sanders letter that I

think only had 19.

>> Yes. Very like w with a small group. It

was a small group

>> that was against sending more arms y

>> to Israel given the level of

humanitarian devastation that was

currently being inflicted by Israel upon

Gaza. Um you my colleague Michelle

Goldberg had a great profile of him and

you know she she mentions like aar's

piece which is like the liberal Israeli

newspaper saying well this position is

going to make it much harder for Asaf to

win in in Georgia and no it put Osaf in

position to actually navigate this in a

way the others are going to have a lot

of trouble with. Yep.

>> Josh Shapi is gonna have a lot of

trouble here is already having a lot of

trouble here.

>> And you know but if you go too far to

the other side you're gonna have Right.

you're gonna need somebody who can

represent both sides of the divide at

once.

>> And Of who is one centering on a

corruption story,

>> who is two centering on a he moves a

corruption critique into an argument for

liberal pluralism.

>> Yes.

>> Right. It's sort of a populist critique

with a liberal pluralist answer. Right.

Talks a lot about values, talks a lot

about being rooted in the civil rights

movement. um and then is able to

navigate this dimension of the party's

schism.

>> He's also done something on corruption

that I have struggled to do and I don't

know if you felt the same way.

The corruption is so overwhelming and

and you can hear in my voice right now

like so

it leaves me speechless. It's so brazen.

It's so insane. Every single day I

discover some new story that is like

would have been the end of any other

politician I've covered. Assaf has

figured out how to tell that story very

very well. But one reason is that he

often he moves it to be as about Donald

Trump and also about the Democratic

party also about the existing

institutions. Right?

>> See I get why people voted for him

>> because even before he came on the

scene,

America had the most corrupt political

system in the Western world. It's been

running on corporate money, secret

money, billionaire money, both sides,

>> and it's worse than ever now.

Citizens United was the worst court

decision in modern American history.

[cheering]

[applause]

And and when members of Congress aren't

begging for money from lobbyists,

they're trying to dodge getting carpet

bombed by these super PACs. And see,

this is why nothing works for ordinary

people. It's not because of woke college

kids or trans students or because there

are interracial couples in serial

commercials.

It's because the people's elected

representatives don't represent the

people. They represent the donors.

There's a credibility. He's very careful

always to do this, which again is

another Obama move. Obama would always

include an argument from the other side

in the argument he was making.

>> Always.

>> Always. It was

>> people say,

>> "Yeah, right." And he does that, right?

You know, both sides. and he's very very

careful to make this a critique of the

system itself

>> of which Donald Trump is taking

advantage of it but is not its

originating costs.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also part

of again it does help to I' it helps to

be getting your reps before the Georgia

electorate.

>> Yeah.

>> You know it's like comedians.

Politicians are like comedians. You work

the room. You see where your laugh lines

are. you you work different rooms, you

work larger and larger rooms, and the

room matters a lot. And what you the

feedback you get from the room is it

matters a lot. It helps to be in a

context where the room that you're

working is a Georgia elector. I I think

this was true of Bernie Sanders in in

[snorts] Vermont where, you know, he

only got to where he was after many

failures, many electoral failures, many

years in the electoral wilderness by

figuring out how to talk to the median

Vermont voter who was not a committed

ideological socialist.

>> It's why Barack Obama was as good as he

was because he was a black politician

who had to work white rooms.

>> Yeah. you know, and he's talked about

that how much he had to do in, you know,

to win statewide in Illinois to to win

in these rural areas where people were

very skeptical of a person named Barack

Hussein Obama

>> in 2004.

The the other thing that I think is

worth touching here, one thing I see

among the Democrats right now is they're

all competing to prove they're the

fighter

>> and relatively few are working in the

more inspirational side of the

tradition. Mhm.

>> That you look at Newsome, you look at

AOC, you look at um Pritsker, right?

Like they're all like, "I am your

brawler."

>> Mhm.

>> Right. I will rip their throats out for

you. Um and Osaf, even though we sort of

attacking corruption, he is

>> not in that mode at all.

>> It's a different register. There's a

there's a type of Democrat

who even if they have learned to

suppress it,

their fundamental feeling at all levels

is a disbelief.

>> I can't believe this is happening. I

literally happening that anybody could

like this guy that these things aren't

sinking him

>> and he is formed in races

>> exactly where that

>> where that is not a register that

>> works and you cannot

>> a lot of Democrats have to kind of

abstractly come to the view that there

are people in this world who like Donald

Trump but they don't know any of them.

>> Yeah.

>> And if they do they maybe cut them out

of their lives,

>> right?

>> And that is not Yeah. John O's world.

>> That's that's what I mean. So he's

formed fully he's formed fully in an

environment in which the appeal of Trump

and Trump's power over the electorate

and Trump's power over specific people

that are that he has to win over or

whose family members he has to win over

is present from the beginning and I

think there's something really useful

and powerful about that for just again

how you train

>> but if you look at polling um and if you

particularly now look at the prediction

markets polling Kla Harris has a lead. I

think people are skeptical that lead

will lead to primary dominance, but I

guess we'll see if she runs. But if you

look at prediction markets, the lead is

Gavin Newsome. And we all knew Gavin

Newsome wanted to run for president. I

would say six years ago. I was pretty

dismissive of how that was likely to go.

You know, handsome white guy with a

bunch of scandals from California was

like not the

>> not what the Democratic party seemed to

be looking for.

who he is in some ways has changed or

actually in some ways maybe come closer

to a a core of him.

What do you think about the way Newsome

has maneuvered himself

into one attention capable in a way he

wasn't always but two into I think it is

the fairly wide consensus right now that

he is a Democratic front runner for

2028.

>> Um I think I have complicated feelings.

I mean, I think that there's some part

of me that just thinks

governor of California is tough.

>> A a tough thing to do to to win national

to be the president. Of course, New York

real estate developer is also pretty

tough, too. So, what do I know? Um, yes,

I think that I think the the choice he's

made intentionally is the mo one of the

most interesting, which is he was always

a charismatic guy, but he was not he has

chosen omniresence.

>> He's chosen to say yes to everything.

He's chosen to go everywhere. He's

chosen to host his own podcast. He's

chosen to host his own podcast.

>> He just had Ashley Sinclair on it. They

had Ben Shapiro on not long ago. He's

doing things you would not expect.