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>> It's great to see you again.

>> Yeah, good to see you.

So, um, since the last time we talked,

we we spent a lot of time where you were

trying to explain to me simulation

theory and why the probability of

simulation theory is uh more likely than

it not being a simulation.

>> Um, yeah, it was what, five years ago or

something?

>> I think it was six or six somewhere

along those lines.

>> I mean, a lot of things happened in the

world since then.

>> Yes. Yes. A lot of things. I mean, um,

for example, back then, I think we did

we even talk about AI.

>> It probably came up a bit, but it

>> wasn't it wasn't this thing looming over

civilization, which is really kind of

fascinating when you think about the

fact that it's only been six years. And

in six years, like what a a massive jump

in some new technology in our life. Like

>> just sort of like the internet where it

like crept up on us. we just accepted

that it's a thing but that the this this

thing has gotten massively entangled in

every aspect of society in every aspect

of people's lives in a very short period

of time.

>> Yeah. I mean things are like so much is

happening now that it's kind of a

full-time job just to monitor the

situation.

>> Yeah. Um,

>> and well, you're one of the things that

you're talking about is the positive

aspects of it, right? You're talking

about like that this is probably going

to be a net good for humanity to

>> hopefully. Um, I mean, I think I I take

both cases seriously, the sort of the

risk side and and the big unlock. Uh, if

we get things right, um,

>> I feel like we have the potential, like

we're on a whitewater raft. We have the

potential to get to our destination,

but we also have the potential to flip

over and try to figure out how to get to

shore in freezing cold water and sort of

rebuild.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That seems about

right. Yeah. And uh Yeah. And it seems

like it's kind of speeding up a bit as

well, right? If you're sort of Yeah.

>> In this field, there's like every few

weeks there's a new model being released

or something. I

>> Yes. I guess it's like if you imagine I

guess commentating some fight, right?

And that's been recorded and you're

supposed to do the voice over and the

first round is like normal speed and

then the second round is 2x and then the

third one 4x and it's just like a wor of

legs and arms and that's a great way to

describe it. Yeah, it's it's just so

strange how quickly it snuck up on us

and that there's there's two narratives

that we hear. Uh, one the one narrative

is we're in real trouble and that this

thing is going to take over every aspect

of society and it's essentially going to

be a superior life force, a superior

intellect that exists amongst us that we

created and we don't think that's wise.

And then there's the other side that is

saying things like what Elon says where

he's saying we're we're going to have

universal high income. It's going to be

so much prosperity that no one's ever

going to have to toil again. There'll be

no more third world countries. There'll

be no more no more poverty. Like we can

eradicate poverty with the resources

that we have on earth and we can change

what it means to have to work like you

just to provide yourself with food and

housing. That's all going to be easy and

free. And then everything else is going

to be you have to find a purpose in your

life.

>> Yeah.

>> My problem is and I love Elon but the

people who have that perspective are all

making money off AI.

>> They all they are all invested like

heavily. Mark Andre, all these people

that have this rosy view of it, they're

all um invested heavily into it. So when

someone like you who's not necessarily

in that camp, you know, that is more of

a an a true objective analyst of what's

going on, when you have a positive

aspect or a positive viewpoint of it, I

uh get a little more excited.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, the truth is we

don't know, right, how it will pan out.

Um so um I mean I think there are these

scenarios where we unlock this you know

enormous boost both to economic

productivity but then you know across

medicine, entertainment, environment,

you know travel, all kinds of things and

like a tsunami of wealth just kind of

flows through and lifts all boats. Um

and then the idea of human work becomes

an anacronism and uh where where you

have machines that can do everything

that we can do physically and mentally

and do it much better and cheaper. Um

and so I think in those scenarios where

this really works it the transformation

is a lot deeper. I mean so that kind of

layers to the onion. So like the most

superficial level is well they automate

your job. So what are people going to

what are they going to do? Where are

they going to work? Yeah. Well, well,

that that comes a little bit deeper.

First, like the most superficial level

is people just wonder where will I get

the job if the robot replaces me.

>> And then the superficial level of that

conversation, I think, is well, you need

to retrain workers so they can work in

other fields. And maybe there needs to

be, I don't know, employment, insurance

whilst they are being retrained or

something like that. Um but but once you

think through where this ultimately

leads it's you think like it's not just

a few jobs I think but it's really

everything that that humans can do to um

a good approximation um with maybe the

exception being where

the consumer has a direct preference

that the particular product or service

be done by a human like priest,

prostitute and politician.

>> Um

>> those might survive. Uh

>> well politician hopefully not hopefully

AI can handle that all without any

corruption.

>> Yeah. But somebody's got to take credit

for it.

>> This is true. And code it. Yeah. It's um

>> um and so then then you get to these uh

like more profound questions I think

about meaning and purpose and like what

does a human life look like

>> right

>> at technological maturity

>> right? Uh also what is experience? Is

does experience have to be um

measurable? Like can do you have to

touch it? Do you have to measure it and

weigh it? Or is uh virtual experience

still experience? Like if you have a

very full and enjoyable and fulfilling

virtual life, is that enough?

>> You know what I mean? Like do do you

have to do everything in the material

world or can you find happiness

in a virtual world world that doesn't

currently exist but we could clearly see

the technology if it expands it's going

to there's going to be the possibility

of experiencing a matrix type reality.

Yeah, I I I think I see where you're

going. But yeah, I mean I think like

different strokes for different folks.

If you imagine um a world where

presumably these virtual worlds will be

very rich

>> uh and deep and fascinating, but some

people might just like the idea of you

know climbing the real Mount Everest

rather than you know being in

>> most certainly but however there there

could come a time where people are

locked out of regular reality like this

is worst case scenario with AI is that

you you you have your needs taken care

of but there is no purpose.

There's nothing to do. There's nothing

to do because AI is taking care of all

aspects of society other than

recreation. There's nothing to do. And

then this one recreation comes along

that's not reality, but it's way more

fulfilling and exciting than any other

aspect of reality.

>> And you know, an example of that would

just be in a very minor way,

your phone provides you with that sort

of an escape and it's not even that

thrilling and yet it's massively

addicting.

your phone. People are on their phones

six hours a day.

>> If you if we come up with a virtual

reality that's way more exciting than

regular reality,

>> everyone's going to hop on in.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think to some extent

this uh will maybe be the case whether

you go the virtual path or the physical

path. I mean, you could imagine a future

where there are like resorts and people

are sort of lying in beach chairs

sipping drinks all day long and like

that's also a kind of checking out,

right? Yeah. Well, that yeah, that's not

fulfilling. You know, the what the thing

about a virtual reality is you don't

have to even live within our physics. I

mean, you can fly, you can do anything.

>> It's a larger space of possibilities.

But either way, it could be like a

passive existence in physical reality

where you're like launching at the beach

or climbing mountains or in video games.

Like you could have like a really

intense every straining every fiber to

try to succeed in this virtual

environment or like one where you're

just kind of floating on some cloud in a

drug-like state.

>> But I don't think people are going to be

interested in that because just the way

the human mind works like what kind of

video games are people attracted to?

It's because a video game is essentially

a prox it's an approximation of that.

You're just watching it on a screen but

you're sort of forgetting the fact that

you're watching on a screen. and you're

just concentrating on this 3D reality

that you're running through with a

machine gun or whatever you're doing,

right? That's what people are interested

in. They're not interested in these

games where you just like float over the

earth and like fly and and and just eat

bananas. No, they're they're interested

in thrilling things. And if that gets

provided in a virtual way, the amount of

people that are going to just say this

is better than regular boring life or

we're a slave to a computer.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there are there are

both kind.

>> Okay, we're back. Uh where were we?

>> Um oh yeah, I was just saying that there

are also these computer games that like

provide a more passive experience where

you're like not really doing much and

it's more kind of zoning out.

>> But most people aren't interested in

those. Most people are interested in

Call of Duty. They're interested in

these wild firstperson shooters where

you're running down hallways and

everything's exciting and thrill orient

some sci-fi game or, you know,

>> Halflife, something like that. That's

what people are interested in.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think there are

like some some personality differences

in what path you would take there. But

either way, I think a lot of the choices

that people would make currently

depend on what they are sort of designed

to respond to by feeling good about it.

So like if you enjoy one thing you

choose that if you enjoy another that in

this condition of technological maturity

if we imagine sort of a future

civilization that has developed all

possible technologies to their maximum.

>> Yeah.

>> Um then amongst the affordances amongst

the things they could do is like they

wouldn't just have control over the

external environment um things around

them but but also their own biology and

brains. So if you were one of these

people and like maybe right now the only

way you get enjoyment is by you know

getting like crazy drunk or doing sort

of things you don't really approve of

maybe but that's that's actually what

sort of um uh lights your fire. Like you

could imagine redesigning yourself to

take the same kind of pleasure but in

some kind of contemplating the beauty of

the universe or like appreciating the

goodness in the heart of others or like

some some more sort of noble aspiration

um like solving abstract mathematics

rather than you know playing first

person shooters. You would have a choice

like whether you would get your

>> your thrills from from one kind of

activity or the other.

>> Yeah. Which brings us to the question

like what does it mean to be human? Like

for people finding beauty and joy in you

know interesting and fascinating things

and you know how to be a better person

and all all all the different aspects of

human life that we think about when we

think about people. We think about noble

aspects of humanity. But doesn't that

have to exist in conjunction with the

worst aspects of society for us to

appreciate it? It seems like this is a

part of the human condition is that we

have to have crime so that we can

appreciate peace. We have to have war so

we could appreciate peace. We have to

have hate so we could appreciate love.

And we're never without one or the

other. They're always both together in

constant conflict. And we're always noly

hoping that the good wins out over the

bad. And this is part of the struggle of

being a human being. And if we just

completely eliminate that struggle,

we're going to have to find some we're

going to have we're have we're going to

have to be a different thing because

what we are is this very strange

territorial primate and who's endlessly

curious. And this territorial primate is

moving in a certain direction. And that

direction seems to be a better society.

Seems to be over time. If you look at

statistics from thousands of years ago

to today, there's less violence. There's

better medicine. There's better

education. It's moving in a better and

better and better direction. But it's in

a struggle. That's part of why it moves.

If all of a sudden there's no struggle

and everyone is this wonderful

enlightened being, like what are we?

Because we're going to be a different

thing than what we are right now. And if

you love music and if you love art and

if you love me, you know, novels and all

these different things that come out of

the human condition. Well, what what

those things come out of struggle. Those

things come out of confusion and pain

and heartbreak and and love and joy and

all that stuff all piled up together.

without that like what are we? And so if

we are moving in this direction

technologically and we're not moving as

fast biologically

do we merge because that seems to be

what I think. I think that if this thing

goes the way it continues to go the

bottleneck is going to be human biology.

>> Yeah. Yeah. there there is a kind of

paradox

embedded in in our efforts to make

progress. So like there are all these

kind of scientists and people working to

develop better technologies and

throughout the economy you know you in

some company maybe you try to figure out

how to make some process a little bit

more efficient so you can serve

customers better and all of this is

designed to solve problems right to like

if if you sort of extrapolate that to

its logical end point right you would

imagine we would have perfect technology

that can do everything solve all the

problems like presumably with AI and

automation

>> right

>> um but then you end up in this condition

where there is kind of nothing left for

us to do. You might think and so

although it looks like we have these

strong reasons to push forward in this

direction. If you actually look at the

end point if we succeeded

to many people it will look kind of

unpalatable and like this kind of future

where you know all the problems are

solved and um nevertheless that that

does seem to be you know the direction

that we are headed in probably the

direction that we should be headed in.

>> Yeah. Wouldn't that be a better goal if

there was zero murder, zero violence,

zero crime, zero lying, zero corruption,

>> and human beings all worked in

coordination with each other?

>> Just like in a a sense of unique sinking

and harmony,

>> right?

>> That would be way better.

>> Um I I think but but it does like if you

actually stare at that situation, it

does have these slightly unpalatable

>> Yeah. quality because you might think it

looks kind of bland then, right? If it's

>> not necessarily though, it's just it

looks bland if you think about what

we're experiencing now like all the the

excitement and the weirdness of

uncertainty and of not knowing, you

know, and and also the negative aspects

of our life in conjunction with the

positive aspects of our life. So, we

contrast the two of them and you really

appreciate good people after you're

around a bunch of You

know, if that doesn't but doesn't have

to be that way. This is just what we are

dealing with. This is my position on

work, too. Because everybody in their

head is like, "What happens when AI

takes all the jobs?"

>> And I'm like, "Do you have to have a

job? Isn't that a human

invention? Like, why do you have to have

a job? That seems crazy that our main

focus is on housing and food

>> and like most people are basically just

working for that. Most people that are

most people that are struggling check to

check basically housing and food is

their daily labor. If that's removed,

>> wouldn't enough people figure out what

to do with their time?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think so that like

yeah, there will be some transition and

discomfort in change ultimately that is

like Yeah. I I I mean I think it's like

so slavery is really bad, right? Like

but wage labor is a sort of you know

slavery light in a sense. you have to

sell a third of your working day

>> um just to get money to to pay for

necessities.

>> And the people that are trying to make

the most money make the conditions for

their employees as shitty as possible

because it costs the least amount.

>> They don't think about it like listen

maybe we make less money but we have an

awesome experience for everybody that

works there. Nobody thinks like that.

They all think like we have to make the

most money because we have shareholders

and we have a responsibility and these

people need to make more money every

quarter. So yeah, although sometimes you

do this, you compete for talent like

>> that's true too. But now but only the

top talent. That's why the CEOs get all

the bread and all the people on the

assembly line.

>> Some employees get treated well, right?

What would you say? I mean

>> Jamie is a different kind of employee.

Jamie is literally the co

>> Exactly.

>> I mean he's the co-person on the show.

>> Yeah,

>> that's different. But if you know some

dude who's out there, you know, stocking

boxes for Amazon, that's different than

being the CEO.

>> Yeah. So I mean I think like ultimately

that would be a huge liberation and and

kind of restore dignity like you should

be in control of your own time. It's

kind of almost the most like aside from

your own body like your own time your

own attention

>> and we have to teach people discipline.

They have to that's the thing is like if

you give people the opportunity to just

do nothing we we do you know we're

primates we we'll find a way to re

there's we're genetically sort of

designed to conserve resources. You

don't want to overuse resources for no

reason, do a bunch of because you

won't survive. You don't have enough

food. So, we're sort of designed to like

know how to be lazy. And so, we're going

to have to find things that give us

purpose or or we'll get depressed. This

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>> Yeah. I mean, so it used to be the

traditional idea like of British

aristocracy like that you wouldn't have

to work for a living. It was kind of an

unfortunate necessity for many people

that they had to work for their daily

bread, right? But the ideal way of being

human was that you just had money and

then you spent your time doing other

things like you know maybe you were

involved in politics or maybe you had

like an art collection or you did your

gardening or entertain friends.

>> That's the best aspect of it. So but

when you think about British

aristocracy, don't you think about

fuckups? I do. I think about guys that

are just drunk. They drive their Ferrari

into a lake and they accidentally drown

their friend and then they pay off the

cops and they get away with it. There's

that's what I think of when I think of

>> Yeah, there's that. But there were also

these kind of I don't know amateur

scientists or eccentrics who had their

weird thing and it kind of added to um

so I guess it brings out like the more

freedom somebody has the more they can

reveal their true nature like um

>> well it also depends on how they're

raised right who who are their parents

what what values did they instill in

them when they were young did they

explain the value of hard work that it's

actually good for you and then if you

just find something you really want to

do and you concentrate on it and you

really work hard at it it's actually

very fulfilling.

>> Yeah. So you could imagine for example

the education system in in this world

where we no longer need to work like

>> right

>> presumably would need to be redesigned

from from from scratch basically because

right now it's a kind of machine right.

So you take children coming in kind of

on a conveyor belt.

>> Yeah.

>> And then some processing is done like

sit at your desk here is this assignment

here's a grid and then they come out

with a quality label attached.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And then they are meant to be

productive workers that you could put in

an office and they will um so so this it

kind of is an unfortunate

fact about the current condition that I

mean the world needs a lot of these

office workers that can do all these

tasks in the economy so like it's we

have to have

>> until it doesn't

>> until it doesn't and at that point it

would be absurd to keep doing this right

then you could imagine changing

education so that it would be

>> uh much more about like how how can you

learn to uh live well a life of leisure

like you imagine

>> you're right stay

>> cultivating like you know the art of

conversation appreciation for art and

music

>> hobbies physical wellness like nature

>> um the ability to set your own goals and

take your own initiatives to

>> um you know to develop true friendships

with people like these are things are

not taught in school but you could

imagine that being the curriculum like

spirituality like all kinds of

>> sure things that would then equip people

to sort of use their freedom, their

wealth, uh their free time for uh you

know some kind of you know actually um

meaningful and beautiful activities

>> for sure. For for sure preemptively we

should be kind of teaching people like

that now. Like if young people are

coming up now, the world that they're if

you're in first grade right now, 12

years from now when you're graduating

from high school, like the world is a

totally different place. And this idea

that being a productive worker who can

sit still for eight hours a day is

that's the the best way we should teach

kids. That seems crazy if we're really

like seeing the world that you're

describing and that most people seem to

think is oncoming.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I guess the the timeline is

still a little bit uncertain. So you

don't end up in a situation, right,

where you sort of now you find yourself

you're 20 years old, it's time to go out

in the world. You have no skills. The AI

revolution hasn't yet quite happened.

It's kind of

>> Isn't that a liberal arts degree anyway?

>> Yeah. And and how is that going?

>> There's a lot of silly degrees that

people get right now that are useless

anyway. And they spend a tremendous

amount of time working on getting it and

then when they get out there's no jobs

for that degree. Yeah. So, so they were

a little bit too early maybe in hopping

on this

>> maybe or you know there's also traps

there there's there's things that you

can get really excited about and do like

if you want to play professional bowling

you want to bowl professionally like

well the amount of money you're going to

make is very limited because the best

bowler in the world like what is the

best professional bowler in the world

make?

>> Let's guess. I say $100,000

professional bowlers. We used to knew

know a guy Ari's friends with a guy uh

Tommy God I can't remember his last

name. Do you remember his last name

Jamie?

>> He was a professional bowler but he used

to come to the comedy store and hang

out. Really nice guy and love comedy.

And

>> I imagine like maybe the very best one

makes a pretty decent living and then

like the third best like it's just

>> I bet barely barely.

>> I bet the best guy probably makes maybe

100 grand or 200 grand at the most. And

that means like the 30th guy in the

world is

>> Yeah. There you have to have another job

to pursue that.

>> Well, but then in in this

>> what does he make?

>> Oh,

>> 200k. Oh, 400k in big season. 450

including prize money and sponsorships.

>> But then like what does

>> EJ Tucket made $43? yeah. EJ EJ

Tacket made uh $437,540

for the 2025 season with several others

between $190K and 270K in prize money

alone. Top tier. So the top tier guys

make a good living.

>> But how many guys are there? You you

know what I'm saying? Uh it's probably

like a very thin sort of peak and

>> so if you choose to go into bowling it's

not like choosing to go into you know

there's a lot of other jobs like even if

you want to be a basketball player

they're they're making a lot of money

you know if you're a really good

basketball player and you pursue that

like you could get very very rich but

how many of them get rich

>> most don't yeah but then like so maybe

maybe the the money factor would kind of

drop out of the picture

>> and it would just be what you're

interested in and then maybe even it

would

>> I mean

are endless and what other people are

interested in to some extent because

like I think part of what people are

competing for is also prestige and

status and

>> that would be a thing right like status

would be more important it's like who's

the best at this thing like like a bunch

of friends who play golf like Jamie

plays golf all the time golfers are all

like comparing each other's scores and

they're all they're playing they're

competing in this game instead and that

they think about that more than they

think about work

>> like people who love golf they

hate work like I used to say that about

uh comedy. Back when uh I first started,

one of the things that I noticed is the

guys who really got into golf, their

careers kind of stalled cuz they were

more excited about playing golf than

they were about writing jokes and going

on the road. And I was like, okay. So,

if the average person doesn't need food

and housing anymore from labor, if

that's gone and now you just get it. And

so now you could just go do things. We

just have to teach people to be excited

about stuff. We have to teach people the

value of curiosity and finding things

that are interesting to you and then the

value of just education for the sake of

learning things because it's interesting

just just pure satisfaction of curiosity

which is a beautiful thing. Like that

would be great for everybody if we

instead of learning things because your

teacher tells you you have to learn it.

Well, there's always going to be people

that just naturally gravitate towards

mathematics and they're really

fascinated by mathematics and there's

always going to be people that are just

naturally gravitating towards history.

They're like, "How did we get here? What

is this? How did this start? Who wrote

that? Who's the first guy to figure that

out?" And that that's you're going to

naturally go towards that and just be

educated for the sake of satisfying your

curiosity. And maybe we'll have a more

balanced society because people will

actually be able to just pursue their

interests. But we have to teach them to

do it. That's what I think is going to

be really important about young people

in the future. Teach them to actually

pursue their curiosity rather than just

squash any desires they have for novelty

and for interesting things and just be

able to work all day doing something you

hate because that's what it means to be

an adult.

>> Yeah. I think like cultivating that

would be like

the way forward in in this case, right?

>> And seems very possible. It's doable.

Like we know curious people and we Yeah.

>> And at least to some extent. Now I think

there's probably also some differences

in how different folks are wired. Like

some people get bored very easily.

Others find everything fascinating.

>> Some people are like just naturally

depressed or have low mood. Others are

sort of evolving.

>> Yeah. But those people that are

naturally depressed, how much would

their life change if they were coached

at a very early age the value of

exercise? And if they started running,

if they started doing yoga and they

started feeling much better and they

weren't naturally depressed anymore, and

then you changed their diet and you

start adding in vitamins and nutrients

and stop giving them processed foods and

all a sudden they feel better because

the concept even of depression, like

what does that mean?

>> Well, it it varies so wildly. And when

you're talking about people that aren't

taking care of their bodies and that's

not thought of as a primary factor in

why depression exists in the first

place, well, this is a very unscientific

approach then because we know that it

has a profound impact on human beings.

So we're pretending that there's like

this oneizefititall.

No, I think that should be also a part

of teaching people how to be a human

being. chase your curiosities, but also

this is why you're not feeling well and

that if you just develop this ability to

get some momentum going and just show up

at that yoga class every day, you'll

feel way better

>> and you don't have to take a pill.

>> Yeah. And I'm I think yeah uh many could

be a lot improved if they were taught to

sort of take care of their basic

physiology and

>> everyone can be improved. 100% of them

can be improved. It's a part of being a

human being.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I don't know. I think

there is also some people who might just

have you know some you know imbalance of

some neurotransmitter because of some

genetic

>> 100% or maybe they don't even have the

energy to engage in these activities

that would make them feel better but

then I think there would be much better

medicines for uh helping

>> that's where aderall comes in let's go

give them some aderall

>> well get them fired up

>> get them to start running I'm kidding

but but what we're saying is all doable

we're not asking people to breathe

underwater, right? Where you're we're

saying is that there are people on Earth

that live like that. And this idea that

living just for a paycheck so that you

can cover your food and your housing,

which we've always thought of as being a

just an undeniable part of being a

person, an adult. This is what you have

to do. You have to pay for your food,

pay for your housing. But if we we do

get to a point where the structure of

society is now run by hyper inelligent

artificial intelligence,

you would wouldn't need most jobs that

people have to do that suck. And in

order to get our society to this point,

if you wanted an iPhone, you needed some

people that were at a factory somewhere

putting it all together. You needed

someone who's designing it. you needed

someone who's sitting there in the

office trying to figure out how to

market it. You needed all those jobs.

But when we don't need all those jobs

anymore, then things are going to be

very interesting. And that that's what

I'm saying. We need to become a

different thing. Like it's kind of true

and kind of not. Like you you can be a

human being and live in that world, but

we're going to have to re-educate people

how to be a human being. It's it's going

to this our our education system

specifically in this country is just

designed to make factory workers

specifically like there's a there's a

real history of it like we we know why

they made it this way. They made it this

way and they got people in really early

so they could get people set up for

jobs. They just want people to work.

>> Yeah. So, so we are kind of currently

ills suited for really um thriving in in

an environment of abundance and for

enjoying life because I mean both at

deep biological time scales and and

during the life span of a single

individual there are all these pressures

necessities that kind of force us to

become a certain types. I mean we talked

about the education system training

people to be the kind who can sit at the

desk all day long and perform tasks

right

>> biologically

um we've

evolved drives to you know be lazy to

conserve energy to eat as much as we can

and now in the modern environment where

there are fridges everywhere like it

causes problems metabolically.

Um and in terms of enjoying life for

many people there is this hyonic

treadmill right like so you achieve

something some improvement there's a

spike of happiness and then you sort of

go back to baseline very quickly you

start to take for granted all the

blessings of life which makes it very

difficult to actually achieve a state of

um permanent happiness and felicity and

but and and it's kind of been necessary

because we that that there needed to be

this motivation to keep striving for the

next thing. Now once you've actually

achieved all the things though then

maybe that becomes

kind of dysfunctional right like why

keep wanting to strive for the next

thing if all the things have already

been achieved at least in a certain

domain

>> and so I think as we move deeper into

this hypothesized future like where we

get all these magical technologies then

at some point probably some

transformation of of human nature uh

would have to go along with that First

maybe cultural changes to sort of equip

people for a life of leisure.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and then ultimately maybe more

profound changes to to our very biology.

And so that imagine if you solve aging

and you can now live

>> for thousands of years, right? Like may

maybe the way our memory work is not

really set up for them. Maybe we would

just go stale after 200 years with our

current brains. Like we just get stuck

in a rot.

>> We don't know because we haven't lived

for 200 years. But that could easily

turn out to be the case with a human. So

then maybe at that point you would need

to sort of do something to sort of add

more um cognitive resources, more

flexibility, do some sort of psychedelic

reset or something to sort of keep the

the flexibility going for, you know,

longer periods of time. I I'm glad you

said a psychedelic reset because it'd be

very funny if the main tools that we

have for navigating this are all illegal

because I I think they might be and

specifically with psilocybin and DMT and

and probably Iane as well. Like if we

wanted chemical tools to navigate a new

reality, those are probably the best

ones that we have available and they're

all illegal. And I think you're right. I

think if we're going to be able to

navigate this correctly, we have to kind

of change the way we uh interact with

each other, what it means to be a

person. But I I wonder how much of the

conflict that we have is a direct result

of this inherent struggle that so many

people have. And I mean, there's a

direct correlation between extreme

poverty and extreme crime. You know,

specifically in this country, if you

look at the areas of extreme poverty in

this country, they're also the areas

with extreme crime. And um I wonder how

much of that would be completely

alleviated with a complete lack of

poverty. You know, we've always assumed

that if you're going to have uh a a

functioning society that you're going to

have slums. Why? Like why? That they

don't they don't serve any function.

It's not a good thing. Well, well, it's

because some people are always going to

be making bad decisions and some people

are always going to be going down the

wrong road and crime and this and that,

right? But there's still just humans and

some humans don't do that. So, wouldn't

it be better to figure out a way to not

have humans ever do that anymore? And it

seems like a way to there seems like a

way to do that. It's again not asking

people to breathe underwater. We're just

we're trying to figure out why does some

people never engage in crime. Why do

some people live these really fulfilling

and interesting lives? Well, probably

because they were exposed to it when

they were really young. Probably because

they weren't exposed to like very bad

environments and very bad crime and very

bad poverty. And how much of that would

change if there was no more poverty? It

sounds like such a little fairy tale

childlike, oh, one day we'll have no

poverty, but that's doable. If everyone

is alive, right? Okay. That that's alive

right now is not starving to death. That

means we figured out a way to at least

the very least get you resources so you

could feed yourself, right? That this no

matter how dysfunctional things are, all

it has to do is get ramped up a few

steps.

>> I am.

>> And now you have no one ever worried

about being fed, no one ever worrying

about not having a place to sleep. And

then you have to find purpose. But it

seems like there's a lot of people that

find purpose without having a a

financial price tag attached to it. just

by what we're talking about with golf or

you could be like really into writing

books. You could write books all day

long and people are always going to want

human created fiction. People are always

going to be interested in the way other

people think about things. You you'll

find you there's plenty of things to do.

There's plenty of games to play and

plenty of skills to learn. The idea that

the only reason why we work is to eat

and to not get rained on seems nuts. Um

yeah I I it is I guess to some extent an

open question to what extent people will

always want um to read human fiction or

to

prefer the human generated outputs. It

might be just because current AI

generated writing is kind of lacking in

various ways. It's often slo and boring.

But if if it became really good

>> Yeah. Then um you know maybe it would

just be like much more fun to to like

like if a movie made by an AI might just

be so much better and richer and the

lighting is perfect and the dialogue is

sharp and it's more funny and deep and

>> certainly touches it. Then you go and

watch this

>> human produced thing and it's going like

like most people don't go and watch sort

of film school students productions

>> right but then there's that like that

movie obsession. Wasn't that movie made

like very uh inexpensively?

>> And it's a huge hit, right?

>> And that's part of the thrill of it is

that this guy who was like a YouTuber,

right,

>> who created this film and now this movie

is a giant hit and everybody's like

super excited about it. Now that same

movie was made by AI. I wonder if it

would have that impact because it

doesn't have the human connection. So

that so that's possible that that we

keep getting interested in these things

because we sort of are really entangled

with with the human world much more than

than we are with the world of AIs. And I

mean for the same reason you might be

more interested in if if like your

brother or friend did something you

might think ah this is interesting I

want to check that out. Of course it was

some random dude who made something

slightly better. It's like doesn't mean

>> right when you go to see your nephew

play baseball, you wouldn't really go

see little kids baseball.

>> No, no, just randomly, right?

>> When your nephew gets on first base like

way to go, Bobby.

>> So, I think these kind of um social

entanglements that we have like will be

a big part of what gives u structure.

>> Yes.

>> Um to to lives in this condition where

where like the external constraints are

removed. I think that there is a great

value for the human mind for whatever

reason in getting better at things and

learning things. And I think that if we

could instill that in people at a young

age, I think it would be fairly easy to

get people to pursue that path. But we

have to completely revamp our education

system, which should have been done a

long time ago anyway. The idea of having

unenthusiastic, un under underpaid

people

being any percentage of what children

encounter for most of the day when

they're in their most formative period

is insane.

>> It should be a a rich, exciting,

enthusiastic journey and how to be a

better person and how it's exciting to

learn things and how it's exciting to

get better at things and about how

anybody can get better at things.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I hate

that every day of school. I remember

>> I hated it. Hate it. I didn't even know

that I was interested in learning

anything until I got out of school.

>> The same for me. I mean, I only

discovered like I also hated books and

everything like that for my first 15

years of life because I associated that

with school. That was the kind of school

thing. So it's only then randomly one

day I happened to uh walk into the local

library for no reason and pulled out the

book here and there and then I

discovered that there was this whole

world of science and idea and literature

and all of that like very very different

from what we were doing in school and

then then that kind of opened the gates

for me to this

>> imagine what a head start you would have

had if you had like a different kind of

education

>> with super enthusiastic people who

really love teaching children are really

good at and that we reward them and that

it becomes a very prestigious position

to be in rather than what it is now. If

you talk to some guy and he goes, "I'm a

high school teacher." You're like, "Oh,

the poor bastard. How's he feed

himself?" That's the immediately what I

think. Like, good for you that you're

doing that, but also I guarantee you

could probably be making a lot more

money and be happier doing another job.

And so, that's a terrible way to start

life off. And if we just revamp that,

then you have a bunch of people that are

interacting with life in a very

different way. And instead of being

thought, I have to get a job someday. I

have to get a job after school anyway to

help my mom pay the bills because we're

struggling. So, I got to contribute to

the household even though I'm 16 now. I

can't hang out with friends. If all that

stuff's out the window and now it's

like, no, what we need to find out is

what is exciting for you? like what what

excites your mind, your specific

personality? What is it about life

that's interesting? And let's expose you

to a bunch of different things that are

exciting and interesting that other

people find value in and let's find out

which way you gravitate because maybe

you gravitate towards chess or maybe you

gravitate towards something completely

different. Maybe you're just really into

a painting. Maybe painting just lights

you up and you like look at a canvas and

you just start around with it

and that's your thing. There's a lot of

people in this world that find that.

It's just they have to find it

themselves unfortunately.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's kind of

inspiring. And but like I think the

train doesn't stop there. So if we think

even more further into this kind of

condition of technological maturity, I

think in in addition to sort of freeing

up people, you know, like making it easy

to produce the food and the houses and

like cars that go faster and don't

pollute and all of this stuff. Like if

you think through what maybe a

technologically mature civilization

could do like so a lot of these um like

learning for example is something that

gives people purpose but maybe you would

have the ability to sort of download

knowledge

>> um at the click of a button. So rather

than like if you want to learn advanced

mathematics now you have to study year

like for years right do like books with

exercises and apply yourself and then

eventually you sort of unlock.

>> Yeah. Um but like maybe at technical

maturity they would be like okay

understand mathematics okay I'm going to

press that button boom now I understand

mathematics

>> like the matrix I know kung fu remember

>> yeah so if you had like you know you may

be some kind of nanobots that could

infiltrate your brain and then change

the synopsis in just such a way that

you're now the same as you were before

except you have these concepts from

abstract mathematics.

>> Yes. uh you know after 20 minutes or

something like that some super

intelligence works out how to change

your synopsis to this new condition. Um

and if you were inclined to do various

things because they give you joy and

pleasure uh like you could also think

well I could do those things and get the

joy and pleasure or I could just push

this button that's like activates the

same joy and pleasure. M.

>> So there would be these shortcuts to

everything

and it looks like you would have a post

instrumental condition where there would

at least at first sight seem to be no

reason to do anything for the sake of

achieving something else because there

would always be this like shorter path

to that other thing that pressing the

button.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and so that's a kind of deeper form

of redundancy. It seems that all forms

of human instrumental effort would

become unmotivated.

uh you could still, you know, go to the

gym uh every day and sweat for an hour

or you could just take the pill that

induces exactly the same physiological

effects and the mental effect like the

calm or whatever you feel after.

>> Um so

>> or maybe even better genetically

engineer something so you don't have to

take a pill.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um

>> and so so then I think you're getting

more into these like fundamental

questions of value,

>> right? philosophical questions about

what ultimately is it that makes a life

good

>> um

>> and what makes a life good for a primate

because that's what we are or a

primitive version of primates I think

we're going to become something

different and if we do it through

technologically induced evolution or

biologically induced evolution we're

still moving in a general direction just

biologically there I mean if you look at

ancient hominids and look at us we're

clearly very different so we're moving

in a general direction anyway way. And

when you look at the grays, like these

uh prototypical aliens that everybody

sees with the big heads and the skinny

bodies, what do they look like? Well,

they look like if we keep going, that's

what we're going to look like. We're

going to be these genderless, sexless,

muscleless little skinny things with

giant heads that communicate

telepathically, which is probably where

we're moving. And if we're moving that

way, uh maybe we, you know, we think of

them as being an alien from another,

maybe that's not maybe that's just the

general direction that primates go once

they figure out technology. They

eventually realize, well, all first of

all, the idea of having to have a male

and a female is kind of crazy, right?

Why? Well, because we have to reproduce.

Well, what if we don't reproduce like

that anymore? What if all reproduction

is done through engineering and there's

no more there's no more sex so there's

no more lust so there's no more jealousy

so there's no more ego there's no more

anything and then there's a hive mind

because technology advanced to the point

where the reason why they have these big

giant heads they're they're essentially

locked into everybody all around them

all the time

>> yeah well is that what we would want

though

>> not us but I don't think we'll be us

anymore I think this idea like if you

went to chimps and you said hey dude One

day you're going to be on a plane eating

peanuts, flying over the ocean. They'd

be like, "Fuck that. I don't want to do

that. I'll just stay here where the

fruit is. You guys are nuts. Like, why

do you want to do that?" And you'll be

uh addicted toratom and you'll be uh

watching YouTube all day long. Like, no,

I don't want to do that. That doesn't

sound fun.

>> We do. We do have a lot of bananas,

though.

>> Maybe. Or you have to get killed by the

other chimpanzees that want the bananas.

You know, they have chimp wars. They

come in and kill each other. So I think

we're going to be something different

and I think that's inevitable anyway. If

you believe in evolution, it's

inevitable anyway that we become

something different. We're not a

finished product.

>> Yeah. No, I I think that is true. We are

not the finished product. Now the

question is the thing that we become or

that becomes is that um a result of us

choosing how we want to be or is it just

these kind of impersonal forces like

evolution selecting certain types that

might end up uh leading to outcomes that

we actually don't want. And so I guess

the hope is that we would be able to

develop along a path that preserves and

develops uh the things that we actually

value about being human, maybe amplifies

them, then maybe adds other things.

>> Um so there are many different possible

things you could develop in the future,

but that we sort of select those that

actually make us better rather than just

randomly different um that we can sort

of grow into our ideals. But it's so

funny how much value we put in human

condition, how much value we put in

meaning because it it is valuable to us.

When you think about like what that

means in terms of the amount of energy

it produces, the amount of impact that

it has versus the structure of the

universe itself versus black holes and

stellar nurseries and things that are

just infinitely more spectacular than

the human condition. But to us it's

like, "Oh, what is meaning? What is

meaning? What is meaning to me?" Like,

well, what is meaning to me? You is

you're a finite biological organism that

has to find meaning because you're sort

of trumping around through this weird

world where eventually you're going to

die and you're going to leave your mark

and maybe reincarnation's real, maybe

the afterlife's real. Nobody

knows. So, you got to have meaning. But

the universe itself, like a human only

lives 100 years, how much meaning can

you have in a hundred years?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Now that is I I think we

kind of die prematurely. I mean we think

of us as like first first you become

stronger and more capable for 15 20

years right

uh then biologically you stagnate and

then

>> maybe you keep accumulating sort of

knowledge and skills for another few

decades but like just as you have

>> started to acquire like a modiccom of

wisdom like your brain starts to rot.

>> Yep. And then uh everything is erased

either by Alzheimer's or death and it's

kind of okay now that's all gone the

whole lifetime of experiences

>> there's your meaning

>> all the the the memories and like the

hardearned lessons that so that seems

kind of sad and probably not the best

way for things to be I think we would

want to extend the human lifespan so you

could continue to grow up not just kind

of reach 20 and then plateau there for

the rest of your life but what if we

could continue to develop so that like

at at 80 you were as much stronger uh

and like be able to understand more and

move better and like just have the same

capacity increase as you had like

between like zero and 20 and you just

kept going. Uh

>> well these life extension scientists

that are working on these things guys

like David Sinclair like they believe

that that's a not just a possibility but

an inevitability.

>> Yeah. Well so that that's more like I

guess preserving like pre preventing or

delaying that decay.

>> Sure. which is already very good like

reversing. They're talking about

reversing.

>> Yeah. But then you would go back to

being 20, right? In terms of biological

>> but um but then you have engineering

>> if if you have very long time spans. So

then you might at some point want to

continue to grow.

>> Yeah.

>> Like you might not want to just be stuck

at a 20-year-old human 10,000 years.

Like maybe eventually you would want to

become

>> um uh like slightly bigger in like in

terms of your ability to engage with the

world.

>> Sure. Of course. And if if they can

figure out how to make people Well,

there's already genetic engineering

that's being done in terms of increasing

potential intelligence and IQ. They're

already doing that, you know. And so

this was a I know I'm sure you know

about that thing that happened in China

where um this one doctor got in trouble

because he had genetically engineered

some babies to be um inoculated to HIV.

But it also at the same time gave them a

far increased potential IQ. Well, it

remains to be seen whether or not it

actually works as these guys, you know,

become like 20 and 30 and we start

putting them in chess tournaments and

see if it really did make them smarter.

But if the possibility of that is

already being studied, they already

understand the differences between like

what what is what's possible, what we

understand, and that increases every

day. They understand more every day,

more is possible every day. If that just

keeps going, well, you have a different

version of what the human consciousness

is. You have a different version of the

human mind.

>> Yeah. Although I think the the way AI is

going, I think that's the train that's

going to reach the destination faster.

>> Oh yeah. Um and then once you do have

super intelligence in machine substrate

like then that can then unlock all kinds

of technologies including these

biological technologies or

nanotechnology or host of other things

that could then sort of bring us up if

that's how how we decide to go.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and uplift us into different like

either biologically enhancing us or like

uploading us into

>> but again it's that whitewater river

raft. It's like we're we're going down

this white water and we might make it

out of this or it might crash. You know,

one of the weird things about um I'm

very fascinated with uh uh ancient

civilizations and one of the weirdest

things about ancient civilizations is

when you go really really far back, a

bunch of them have these depictions of

kings that ruled for thousands of years.

And it's very strange stuff because the

Egyptians and an ancient Sumere uh

there's a bunch of different depictions

of these kings that lived lives that

were way longer than biological humans

lived. And then there's the flood myth

or the flood story. And then after the

flood, biological life decreases pretty

radically. and it seems to get back to

like a normal version of what we assume

now, which is like a hundred years.

>> And one of the weird questions that

these um alternative ancient historians

have is are we missing the possibility

that there was a hyper advanced

civilization that existed tens of

thousands of years ago and that what

we're seeing now is not a linear

progression from caveman to human being

with an iPhone in 2026. that along the

way there might have been a very high

level of sophistication and the evidence

of that might be the pyramids and some

of these other ancient structures that

are mindboggling. As much as you try to

explain them away when you're dealing

with 2,300,000

stones, some of them are cut from a

quarry 500 miles away, 80 ton stones

that are in the seal, like perfectly cut

granite where it looks like they have

diamond drill holes in them. It seems

like there's some lost technology. And

every society has this flood myth. And

every society that has this flood myth,

especially these ones that were very

advanced somehow or another like ancient

Egypt, they have these depictions of

people that lived way longer than people

live today. And I wonder if human beings

one day will realize like, oh, if you

keep going long enough, a hundred years

is silly. Like people can they'll just

figure out what it is that makes people

age and die. Fix that and you'll live an

insanely long time. And then if people

live an insanely long time and their

capacity for reason and logic increases,

their capacity for intelligence

increases, then you have these insane

technologies that were required to do

things like build the pyramids. And that

might be what happens. That might be a a

natural course of progression that the

first thing we realize is 100 years is

not enough because I I I'm 58. I'm a

still. Like why am I learning

every day? How come I'm getting better

at being a person every day? Well, I

would have I should have figured this

out already. But you don't ever have

time to figure it out.

>> You don't have time.

>> There's not enough time

>> and you only get one run. Like I mean

you would think you'd want a trial run

first, right, on life and then like okay

now now I kind of know a little bit how

it works now. Now let's do it for real.

>> Well that's the concept.

>> It's kind of scary. I mean it's a bit

crazy that each of us is put in charge

of a whole human life

>> right

>> like are we really like reach the level

of like if you want to run an airplane

you have to go through these

certifications and stuff right and then

maybe you can be a pilot but like for a

human life it's like every single person

like okay you have 100% dictatorial

control of this person like they're

completely hostage your whims

>> and and then that's like us so but

that's that's the way it is but yeah

having the ability to kind of um try

different things and maybe do like uh

like have a kind of uh opportunity to do

a doover. Um if like if the life turned

out to be like a f every 50 years or

something, you have a chance to kind of

>> um

>> or maybe not even a doover, but it's the

same life, but you can do whatever you

want and you don't have to be

constrained to this idea that you only

have a certain amount of time and you

want to retire by your 65. We we might

look at that as being like a one of the

first completely archaic notions and the

reason why people got it all wrong like

well society will be better because

people are going to live way longer and

if you think about how much smarter how

old are you? 53.

>> Okay. Now, with the way you said that

was sad.

>> I'm older than you, dog. Don't worry

about it. But if you think about how

much smarter you are at 53 than you were

at 13, you know, now imagine how much

smarter you will be at 353

or a,53.

And if that actually becomes possible,

if a person can live to be 100 years,

why can't they live to be 4,000 years?

If they can figure out what makes people

age, if we we really can genetically

engineer human beings, that's not again

that's not breathing underwater. That's

just extending life. And if you ext

extend life and in extend intellectual

capacity and your ability to learn and

grow, holy you're you're dealing

with a 2,000-y old person. That's a

completely different kind of thing. And

that could be real someday. And that

might be also one of the things that

comes along with this new understanding

of uh of just life in general with super

intelligent AI.

>> Yeah. No, for sure. Uh fixing aging and

reversing it would be amongst the things

that a technologically mature

civilization would be able to do.

>> We just have to get people out of the

idea that it's vain. Why do you want to

live forever?

>> That's what they say now, right? But

when somebody actually has the therapy

and you could like here you could either

continue to get you know worse kidneys

and more painful knees and wrinkles

>> and you start forget things or you can

take this uh this rejuvenation serum

that everybody else is using and they

are like full of energy and running

around and doing stuff like

>> do you still think it's vain? So I think

a lot of this is Stockholm syndrome that

like you are kind of faced with the

inevitability of aging and decay and

have been for thousands of years. So you

develop a kind of romantic scaffold that

reconciles you to the inevitable.

>> I like it Stockholm syndrome

>> which is is maybe adaptive but only up

until the point where there actually

might be something you could do to

escape. Right? Then if you're too stuck

in this mindset, it might sort of

prevent you from taking advantage to to

regain your freedom,

>> right?

>> Um, and I think we are now at that

stage. We don't yet have the therapies,

but there are certainly like investments

and research and stuff we could do that

would hasten the arrival.

>> Um, and I think in fact we should have

started on a big sort of, you know,

Manhattan project to defeat aging like

decades ago and maybe we would have

better therapies by now then. But for a

long time aging was not seen as a

problem only the specific diseases that

are the result of the aging.

>> Yeah.

>> And they they got all this funding right

like so you have like huge research

products for Alzheimer's and for heart

disease and for cancer.

>> But if you look at the the main common

cause of most human disease it's scence

like you're much more likely to get any

of these when you're 80 than when you're

20 because your cells gradually decay

and gunk builds up.

>> Arteries clog up. you know, your your

DNA mutates, your methylation pattern

gets scrambled,

>> your brain.

>> Um, so so rather than just trying to put

out the fires one by one after they

occur, like at some point you just need

to sort of try to to prevent like maybe

you need a bit of rain to sort of

prevent the

>> It's kind of amazing how much we've

accomplished as a society, as

civilization, when you think about the

fact that people only live to be 100.

>> Kind of incredible.

>> Yeah. It's

>> kind of incredible. got rockets and

satellites and cell phones and

>> and people only live. So it's like

everybody has to build on everybody

else's intelligence and everybody else's

understanding of the world and develop

new things and everybody has to learn

those new things

>> and each brain is so small that it can

only learn a small little specialty,

right? and you need millions of them to

really although it's not entirely clear

with

>> with humans um

>> if if we had been much more longived

like the way we currently are configured

maybe we would just have gotten too

stuck in our ways and sort of stagnated

into some sort of ultra-conservative

society where nobody's allowed to do

anything different or the old gizers

that have their way of doing things just

remain forever in charge.

>> Yeah. Um so um I mean we just don't know

right like u whether whether that would

have slowed

>> progress or or accelerated it. Um but

but it is yeah it is still it is still

amazing like it's a long path from sort

of running around in the forest uh to

sort of these look at these uh like

advanced chip technologies and the whole

global supply chain where where like

thousands of people are working to

develop just one little tool that then

feeds into the ability to make another

tool that eventually makes these leading

edge AI chips

>> where they're layering things four atoms

deep.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's it's it's

remarkable.

>> It's incredible. And humans only live to

be 100. Imagine what we could accomplish

if we lived to be 3,000, you know.

>> Yeah. Um or if we were just a little

bit, you know, better at these things.

Yes. Because I think we are sort of the

stupidest possible species that are

capable of developing uh advanced

technology like because as soon as we

evolved to reach that level, we started

developing it, right? And then so that's

where we are like the dumbest possible

that just barely can do this,

>> right? barely can do this while we're

blowing each other up.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. At the same time all over the

world.

>> Blowing up people.

>> So, um

>> Yeah. But maybe a lot of that frantic,

stupid, illogical behavior is because

we're so finite, like we're in a rush

that, you know, we realize we only have

a certain amount of time to get things

done. And so this sort of accentuates

the the desire to control resources and

to cement your immortality and to do

these things that people love to do, put

their name on buildings. This there's a

thing that people like to do that it's

almost like cementing their immortality

that maybe there'll be less of a desire

to do that if people lived way longer.

And then you would have to assume

if you can engineer humans to live

longer, you could probably engineer a

lot of stupidity out of us. they could

just find out why people behave like

what if you could just eliminate lying?

What if there's like a a genetic

solution to lying?

>> Well, or just a really good lie

detector.

>> Yeah, but I mean, what if you you can

genetically engineer out the desire to

lie?

>> Well, I mean, if you had a perfect lie

detector, there would be no point in

lying because people would just see it

immediately, right? Um,

>> well, if you could read each other's

minds, it'd be fruitless.

>> Yeah. And so that that might be closer.

I mean, who knows what you could do if

you sort of had like powerful AI system

trained to detect micro expression.

>> We just all have to get the big gray

heads with the black eyes like the

aliens have.

>> Then they read each other's minds.

>> You want one of those? Well, one of the

the weirder things that uh Bob Lazar

said, again, I don't know if you're into

this UFO stuff, but he was one of the

guys that um was a whistleblower that

said he backered crafts for the United

States government in the 1980s. They

don't have any controls in these crafts

supposedly and that they're all powered

by the minds of the beings that are

running it and that they have it's

almost like these crafts are alive and

they have some sort of a sinking with

the thing that instead of like pressing

buttons and working a joystick they just

sync with this this creation and then

they can propel it with their minds.

>> So their minds become the computer that

that moves this thing around.

>> I'm I'm a bit skeptical. I haven't

looked into that so I don't

>> You should be.

>> Sounds crazy.

>> How could you not be? And anybody who's

not skeptical sounds crazy, but if you

think about where we are now and where

we're going to be, the possibility of

that being our future is pretty likely,

right?

>> I I think like that the kind of

possibility of engineering something

like that with sufficiently advanced

technology would be there like all kinds

of stuff.

>> Yeah. Yeah, basically everything that

doesn't violate some law of physics um

to a first approximation you would be

able to construct.

>> And even when we say that it's like our

current understanding of physics, it's

not the understanding of physics a

society that's a million years older

than ours.

>> You because that's I mean that's a blink

in the eye of the time that it took to

create what we are at right now from the

big bang. Like a million years is

nothing. Um yeah, but even with our

current understanding of what physics

permits, that's still an enormous space

of uh designs and types of life and

being that you could imagine

instantiating. You could have uh you

know like a Dyson sphere. You've heard

of this concept, right? It's basically

like using the output of the sun for

energy generation. And you could have

like you surround the the sun by solar

panels that then powers

>> a civilization infrastructure maybe like

a computer like imagine the like already

we have like AI compute growing at like

240% per year or something right with

this

>> and then like imagine the kind of mind

that could run on that sized computer.

Um, so people are wondering whether like

could machines be conscious and like

discussing that right now. I think like

maybe the more pertinent question is

like are we really conscious? I think

barely

u so you're driving on on like the road

for two and a half hours a motorist,

right? and like driving past thousands

of people and homes and like mothers

with their strollers and then after does

he does he remember any of that? Like

was he even really aware of any of this

while he was driving? It's like a little

diffused sense of body and some murky

perceptions floating through uh maybe

some confused abstract idea that we

don't really understand. That's kind of

the consciousness that can fit into this

coconut sized biological organ that we

think and we think wow we are so

conscious but like imagine this Dyson

sphere consciousness

>> right

>> or uh like a mind that maybe spans a

galaxy. I think the difference between

the sort of awareness that it could have

and our awareness might be like bigger

than the difference between our

awareness and like whatever a flea has

or something like that. Way bigger. Um

so it could be this like transition

where we develop super intelligent minds

that for the first time is really life

waking up and becoming truly aware.

>> Yeah. Um and and that we are a little

bit sort of uh over pride proud in in

our own specialness when we think that

like we have achieved something close to

the maximum level of uh that we are the

standard by which consciousness should

be measured and and we we this kind of

feeble confused murky glimmer that is

barely sentient at all. Um so so that's

like I think maybe the big challenge for

our uh era like giving birth to super

intelligence and then hopefully shaping

and nurturing it and steering it so that

it becomes a positive thing both for us

ourselves uh and also for it itself and

also for whatever other if there are

other super beings somewhere in in the

world or in the cosmos that it sort of

is able to get along. with us and and

contribute positively at at the cosmic

scale. Um, and that's that's a very

multifaceted challenge, but I think

that's kind of seems to be what's going

on.

>> Yeah. And it's hard for people to think

that far ahead. You know, you just think

of intelligence being something superior

to what we currently experience. But

when you're talking about

a computer or a a

a being a conscious being that is

infinitely more powerful than anything

we can imagine, that seems to be what if

everything keeps going in the same

general direction and AI increases its

power and we figure out new ways to

power it and then because one of the

things that AI needs that's so

interesting is it needs enormous amounts

of power. And so the just these AI

centers that they're developing now,

they're de like Google's doing one where

they're developing their own nuclear

power.

>> Do you want some coffee?

>> Are you sure?

>> Yeah. Right here.

>> Let's get a little

>> I saw you reaching for your cup.

>> You shouldn't be drinking out of paper

cups anyway, man.

>> I don't usually do that.

>> So I know I don't either, but

occasionally I do. But they're so bad

for you.

>> I know. I'm usually quite conscientious

with like coming a little bit

>> up. Even when I go on the road, I've

started taking a little uh Yeti uh

coffee cup with me. So I could buy

coffee and just have them put it in

that.

>> The the inside of those things is just

lined with plastic. You're pouring hot

water into plastic and then the plastic