i start to feel anxious getting followed

by a guy like my mind is panicking i

actually can't concentrate on driving

because i know this person is just

trying to follow us

a strictly fine list written a book a

west end an internet

sensation you started at 19 20 years old

by 22 you had about 6 million

subscribers yeah that's [ __ ] nice it

was so uncertain about where that was

going to go the rise but also the fall

can happen so quick

the imposter syndrome i already had got

amplified anxiety self-doubt the whole

thing just didn't feel real

diane you met her on strictly first real

proper girlfriend yeah the further you

go in that competition the higher the

pressure is and the stress gets we saw

the best and the worst of each other i

always thought it would be a very

private thing it's actually end up being

the complete opposite

hand on heart

do you think if you'd never started

youtube you'd be happier overall

good question

um

so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening

but if you are then please keep this

yourself

[Music]

joe

tell me what are the most important

things that i need to know about you

from your early years in order to

understand you

uh in order to understand the man that

you are today today i was quite a loud

child i was a loud annoying child

growing up when we look back through

like family videos

um

it's it's quite embarrassing to watch

particularly me because

um i

i'm the i was the sort of boy that'd be

like mommy watch this watch this like

repeating myself over and again and

we're watching it back like oh shut up

like you were an annoying child but then

um at some point

i flipped and i don't know when that was

but at some point i flipped and became a

very

sort of timid quite a shy child

um

always very creative even from an early

early age um i was uh

a good drawer i used to illustrate and

draw a lot of pictures at school

um

which definitely came from passed down

from my parents mum and dad both very

creative in their own in their own sense

i went to a very very small primary

school um in rural wheelchair and i

think there's 52 pupils in our in our

whole school going from there to

secondary school was a big change for me

because that was going from 52 people

was in the whole school to

over a thousand so that was a big which

probably could have a

a reason why

i went from being

sort of

quite a loud annoying child to being a

lot more sort of oh about my debt fear

i'm now a small fish in a big pond

you were i read in the book

in chapter one of grow that you were

quite self-deprecating at that point

in secondary school yeah yeah yeah yeah

primary school i i feel like primary

school i was a

i was a lot more confident

everyone knew everyone very well and i

just felt like a lot more popular then

and then

yeah moving to secondary school it was

much more like yeah like i said it was

it was a very different

place

um and

that's when i first sort of encountered

teasing and bullying and stuff and i

wasn't necessarily like

bullied i wouldn't but it was more like

if there was over like teasing going on

or things that they were trying to sort

of dig

i

very quickly sort of realized if i'm

already sort of poking fun at myself

they will get bored of trying to poke

fun at me so there's less chance of that

happening at that age in secondary

school would you consider yourself to be

a confident child

no

no

do you know what's silently confident

like in my head i've always been the

sort of person where i can

i know what i'm capable of and i know

that

that i think

you know i know that i'm

i can do certain things to a good

standard and i know that i i can be a

good student and all this kind of stuff

but on the outside

not as confident at all so like with

work and stuff i was very confident i

was confident that i'd be able to get

the grades and

do well in school and things like that

but it's more the sort of social

side of it i found that a lot more

difficult

well if i'd asked you at that age what

you wanted to be when you grew up what

would you what did you tell me say like

16-ish 16 i wanted to be i wanted to

work in media but i wanted to be more go

more down the route of um

animation my goal as a kid initially

first of all it was

an archaeologist of course i wanted to

be in diana jones and then uh secondary

school um i wanted to work for admin i

wanted to be an animator like model

builder

um or just i think i've got i've got a

lot of patience

and uh if you know animations like oh

how long it took to make chicken run or

wallace and gromit you know these films

take a long time to make so i wanted to

yeah i felt like i'd be good to do that

i wanted to want it to work for hartman

you your your grades at a level were

really good

yeah which was surprising because then

you know most people with those kind of

grades like gays and stuff would then go

off to university yeah you chose not to

no yeah it's

so we did

uh work experience i don't see the same

like when you turn 16 you have to get

into a dentist did you yeah i fell

asleep every day so

i am

i decided to go roof thatching with my

uncle so my uncle is a roof thatcher

which is a

a very old traditional craft that they

don't really teach anymore it's very

like kind of there's no classes you can

go and take and you can't study for it

you've got to actually go on the job and

work on the job and you learn that when

the master thatcher thinks you're ready

you then go from being an apprentice to

a master thatcher and

my school remember my school advised

that i didn't do it but i went and did

it anyway shouldn't done sorry

but i i so i went and did that and then

um

i absolutely loved it and it was i was

outside i think what it was i was

outside

it was

it was tough i wasn't really i was

lifting a lot of straw and moving things

and sweeping up but i i absolutely loved

it is there's something about like when

we finished a roof we look at what we've

done and it's just

that feeling i wanted to bottle that up

and be like that's what i want for the

rest of my life so i decided that i

wanted to be a roof thatcher for the

rest of my life

i'm the sort of per i'm very kind of i'm

very

bad at making my mind up on things as

well there's a lot going on i'm very bad

at making my mind up on stuff so i was

like what if it doesn't work out later

on down the line i need to have

a levels so if i if this doesn't go to

plan or you know after a while i don't

like it i can at least then try out

university and go back to

trying to

work for

something in the media or or arden or

something

so um but i didn't i'd sort of i i

always like the idea of having safety

nets

underneath me so if something if

something doesn't go to plan it's all

right you've always got that safety net

of

and that's kind of like in a way what

roof thatching became because i started

doing youtube as a hobby off the back of

the thatching did it my spare time and

that started to take off and

and become

a full-time career but then i was

in a way safe going into that because i

was like if it all doesn't pan out

because it's going back to when youtube

wasn't really a career as well so it was

it was so uncertain about where that was

going to go

but i always felt very like

secure in the fact that i knew that if

it didn't pan out i try it for a year it

doesn't work

i can go back to a job that i genuinely

really really love so

yeah the two the two ideas that that

almost in sort of collision there was

this idea that you are

very self-confident in your abilities

and that you've always needed a plan b

yeah i was trying to make them make

sense as two kind of separate ideas

because one of them sounded a bit like

self-doubt this idea that sometimes

there's a struggle to make a definitive

decision and that there's a need for a

plan b

are you someone that has

self-doubt at the same time because i

think it's i think it's possible to

understand your talents but also have

doubt in

the future and

how things will pan out yeah i'm the

sort of person where i think of

the best case scenario so like i i have

those

like i've got a very vivid imagination

so with everything i go into i always

think of the best possible outcome which

then gives me that sort of

self-confidence but then i also have

mr self-doubt on the other side who

finds the worst case scenario

and then they they have a battle in my

head

of

how i should think and it i think that's

where the indecision comes from with a

lot of stuff i live with it i'm glad

i've kind of got it because without like

i would i wouldn't want to always have

the self-doubt there

and i also wouldn't ever always want to

have the self-confidence there because i

think that would make me

a completely different person maybe a

person that i don't like either

so

i don't know it's there's um

yeah i have i have both

that's the thing with them with the

self-doubt if it's just a little bit too

high and i learned this actually from a

guest on his podcast called near iel he

um

he wrote a book on why we get distracted

and ultimately like why we procrastinate

on things and he says procrastination is

the result of us trying to avoid

a task or thing that's that we have

psychological discomfort associated with

yeah so when you're like you know you've

got the essay to do you'll end up doing

the washing up because that's the task

you're competent in and whereas with the

essay you know there's loads of research

to do you're not necessarily you don't

feel comfortable starting yet there's

something missing so there's mental

psychological discomfort so you just go

do the dishes yeah and i think

self-doubt is one of the things that

leads us to have that psychological

discomfort where we just kind of delay

it and wait for that perfect time or

go do the dishes i have that all the

time it's i i always say it's because

i'm creative because i'm creative it's

like i get scared

i don't scared the right word but i yeah

i put it off like if i know i've got

something i want to do that's that is

creative and

requires a lot of sort of sitting around

thinking beforehand and then putting pen

to paper or

or um anything that's going to involve

the creative process

i delay it and i

i think it's a thing of like what if i

start doing it and instantly i don't

like it and i'm like oh this is not how

i imagined because you you sort of

in your mind you have this version of it

it's always going to come flowing out of

the pen or you're going to start filming

something and it's always going to go

perfect to planning and it doesn't and

it very very often does it all just

completely flow

um and i think that that kind of puts a

block in i'm always like

if i'm going to do it i need to make

sure everything's prepared beforehand

that is very interesting a lot of the

time is what we say to ourselves that

we're the reason i'm not

starting it or the reason i have that

procrastination is because i'm a

perfectionist i i really want you know

everyone loves that because it's a nice

way of framing yourself

as being as having really really really

high standards and being honestly it's

kind of like saying i'm the reason i've

not started it yet or the reason i

struggle is because i'm amazing yeah

it's almost like saying that when really

a lot of the time it's probably

self-doubt and that psychological

discomfort associated with you don't

feel fully competent or like you could

fully

nail it and you're trying to avoid the

mess which which we all encounter as we

do anything yeah i think it's like it's

kind of like that i

i think it's from that part of my brain

that's like seeing the best possible

outcome so like let's say for example

uh i'm doing a painting

in my head i'll have that thing of like

almost going ahead cause because my

imagination i see it finished and i'm

like this is it's gonna be amazing it's

gonna you know i'm gonna post it online

and people are going to love it and

things like that but then i

start and it doesn't quite go i'm like

oh actually this is in my mind i've gone

through this process of like doing it

over and over again and getting it to

how i want it to go and then i start

doing it it's not going how i imagined

it and that sort of scares me a bit and

that's why i think i

put things off more from that kind of

side

unfinished paintings yeah a lot of them

too many of them what what have you

learned about is there anything that

you've learned or any anything that's

helped you get past that initial

um hesitancy of procrastination or

because you know you know reading

through your story and even speaking to

you today even before we start recording

i was like god this guy's got so many

ideas i was going to say yeah

that is something that i've

struggled with especially nowadays where

like

going into things like business like

starting businesses and stuff

i feel like from what i've seen very

rarely do you see people that are doing

so many different things and it is that

thing of like i'm a plate spinner like i

love spinning plates of different things

and trying to keep up with these

spinning plates and i

take time to sort of sit back and look

at these things and think

when are you going to sit on one thing

and actually just do that thing

and devote you because you see like you

look throughout history of like artists

and people who have devoted their whole

life to

sculpting i mean

and um i sort of tell myself i'm not

going to achieve

anything sort of near that if i don't

dedicate my whole life to one thing but

for me i just find it so difficult

because i'm like i've got a limited time

and i want to dip my toe into everything

and it's weird because i feel like i use

this analogy and i don't know if it's a

great analogy or not but

with

the youtube sort of career that i've had

over the last 10 years that is something

that i did

sort of double down on and really focus

on my energy on at one point but then it

became a point of

branching out and doing different things

just as a form of like stability as well

because we didn't know we still like we

back in those days we didn't know how

it's going to last for so we did sort of

branch out into different things and i

think i just got a bit carried away with

the branching out and just i was like

there's so many things to

sort of see and try out and do

i see like the that youtube thing of

like catching up like going out to sea

and catching a wave and caught that wave

in

um and it was incredible it was a

record-breaking wave it was a major wave

kind of thing and you know uh

and now i feel like i'm sort of

i'm back out on my board again and i'm

paddling around i've caught a few little

waves but they've not been

like another you know ripper of a wave

like like the youtube one was yet but i

i'm sort of like

i know that there's more big waves out

there

but it's just kind of like knowing which

way you start paddling you know like how

surfers sort of start to paddle out

trying to catch them and you watch them

they sort of get it and then doesn't go

and it's like i feel like at the moment

i'm sort of

paddling out

and sort of waiting for that sort of

next

big wave in a sense why do you need a

next big wave

good point i should just stay on the

beach i think that's actually what my

therapist i have the therapist i speak

to and i use that analogy with her and

she said

exact same thing why do you need to

catch the next big wave why not stay on

the beach you don't need to

go out and

constantly catch big waves

i was thinking this because you said

earlier i mean the question i was going

to

ask before you talked about the wave

analogy was kind of similar which is if

you're happy spinning multiple plates

and trying lots of things and sculpting

for the joy of sculpting

it seems like and this is i'm guilty of

this in the biggest way it seems like

there's this other narrative which is

saying no no no no no forget what you

love doing focus because success is the

most important thing yeah when i say

success i mean like

accomplishment yeah because real success

probably is actually being happy yeah

and you're happy like but but it's

almost

almost like we deny ourselves of

happiness because there's not a gold

medal there or there's not a gazillion

followers there yeah but you're enjoying

sculpting yeah for the sake of sculpture

it's it's like it's like a punishment of

yourself like i feel like i um

in a way i yeah it's kind of like a form

of like joe you know you love doing this

and this makes you genuinely happy

so why don't you just do it i mean and

if you love it that much and you stick

at it and do it then

good things may come from it but it's

not gonna happen straight away and it's

like it's almost like i get into i think

of like i like to sort of the things i

know i love doing i put aside and i

focus on the things that

that maybe i don't love as much or not

as passionate about as much

but i'll sort of almost put that before

the little things that make me really

happy it's bizarre i have no idea no

idea i've tried to i've tried to like

think about it a lot and it's it's weird

that it comes from i don't know where

where it comes from because are you

saying because those things you could be

although you might not love them as much

you you might be able to be successful

in the eyes of the world in them or i

think it's because i've got that thing i

mean it's looking for instant success

and stuff which is weird and maybe

that's because of

like

before on youtube and stuff there was a

time where

you know

we were

i say we like might speak for myself but

like me and a lot of the people around

at similar time that on that sort of

wave that we are on

we all

um

everything we sort of would go into

almost became an instant

success in a way it was like yeah i

think because we like back then

i felt like it was it was so much bigger

anything you sort of went into you you

know it did end up sort of getting

attention and doing really well and and

things whereas now maybe not so much and

i think that's kind of crazy

we signed some youtubers back in that

those days so

maybe not because you were you were very

very early but yeah in

2013-14 we signed a bunch of youtubers

and still to this day none of them were

near near the size of of you and that

sort of british cohort of like youtube

megastars but still to this day i d and

they must have been 18 19 20 years old i

still think it ruined their lives yeah

because i watched an 18 year old 19 year

old kid who had started a youtube

channel got to two hundred thousand

three hundred thousand subscribers when

there was no video that was the only

shop in town for the video yeah yeah

before facebook video and instagram and

snap and twitter video so that was where

as brands we were just pumping all the

money into these youtubers yeah i

watched those kids turn down 15 grand to

show up to a [ __ ] movie premiere yeah

or to just show face when that

when that wave comes into shore and hits

the beach and it's over yeah i don't

those i don't those kids are in a

psychological trap almost with their own

personal expectations of the world

and i and i and i really worry about

that because

success has often is can be a curse

because because of the way it messes

with our own personal expectations of

ourself and of the world yeah and in in

some respects that sounds like what

you're saying your expectations back

then everything you guys touched did

turn to gold

yeah now you're saying it's it's a

little bit more difficult yeah bronze

from yeah yeah

do you want does any of that resonate

with you 100 yeah i think that's that's

a big part of why um myself and casper

is also a youtuber we started a

management company because in the future

there's going to be kids i mean we

already seen it then like young kids

that were shooting to fame overnight but

even i think nowadays with other social

medias it happens even quicker like the

the rise but also the fall can happen so

quick and i was like

for for me and casper we want to make a

management company a big role of what we

have in that is

being in a way called mentors when

needed to

to for any questions they have or

anything that any concerns they have

about that kind of thing we can sort of

give

it's i kind of use it as like a i guess

like the you know like um

the hunger games a guy who's like sat on

the train he sort of takes her through

it and be like look this is gonna happen

i guess like a a

mentor a very different version yeah

like yeah kind of like mental kind of

role yeah um

and that

for me is like one of the like the best

things

that i do at the moment is having that

sort of one-on-one with our own clients

and sort of if they've got any sort of

issues being able to actually offer

advice

and see it make a change i'm joe at 19

yeah yeah and you're joe at 30. right

what do you say to me

i'm about to um but as you were i'm

about i'm thinking about uploading that

first video yeah

what advice would you give me i would

say

if you want it to get to that level you

can do it if you put in the sort of the

consistency and you're you're making

stuff that is gonna get seen and stuff

but just be prepared for

there's other sides of it that

aren't aren't all bells and whistles and

that kind of thing there's there's gonna

be obstacles there's gonna be things

that

that you're gonna need advice on and

we're going to be here to

to help and hold your hand through that

if you need it

press negative press

um

you know haters you're going to get

trolls that's the bigger audience size

the

the more

issues it brings in terms of the more

eyes that are on you the more people

that watch your stuff that might not

like what you do and then they've got a

thing out against you and there's

there's a lot what's the mental cost

i would say

that

if you're me

it's still worth it

it's still

don't ever regret doing it

it's still worth it like you

there there of course there's there's

negatives but

the positives that you've gained out of

it or you will gain out of it

um in everything

outweighs a negative and don't get don't

get

bogged down by the negatives because

there's more pos you know there's more

positives going to be more positives and

negatives

the the negatives don't matter as much

as you think they're going to matter at

the time at the time when you experience

these negatives and these things that

you know don't go your way or

that's going to happen but

don't let it don't dwell on it don't let

it consume you because

there's positives beyond that that and

you'll you'll look back and you won't

regret it what is the worst thing that's

going to happen to me

the worst thing is going to happen to

you over the next 10 years so i'm 19

years old

you know how it all plays out yeah

overthinking

overthinking and worrying about what

other people

how they perceive you

what cost is that going to have

a few sleepless nights

a lot of anxiety

self-doubt guessing at 19 years old joe

didn't know what anxiety was no no what

is it

it's a feeling of

claustrophobia

feeling a bit trapped

um

do you remember do you remember days

through that period i mean you talked a

little bit in the book about i think

2015 or so a couple of years in i mean

so you said earlier you started at 19 20

years old by 22 am i correct to say that

you had about six million subscribers

possibly yeah that's [ __ ] it's nice

yeah it happened really quick i was very

fortunate that

my

uh my sister zoe sort of um and alfie

actually um her partner they

really encouraged me to do it

before youtube we used to um

buy blank cassette tapes and make our

own

radio shows or

i guess by podcasts back in the day like

as like kids we're always taking our

parents camcorder and recording shows

and zoey was very much like

the leader in that she was very much

sort of uh the director let's say

um and i was always the sort of

sort of i just did what she told me to

like i was a little brother that would

just go along with it and that kind of

thing and um so when youtube came around

she started to get a bit of success from

it and she was like you should give us a

go because it's the kind of stuff that

we were doing

as kids or have done we're kind of like

it's not

that far off from what we used to do

but you know there's an audience that

can watch you from around the world and

and um

and uh so yes i gave it a go and it and

it i think back then the success of like

the

some of the some of the stuff you'd film

back then wouldn't it be like a drop in

the ocean now in terms of like how

big social media has got and youtube and

stuff our stuff wouldn't be watched

nowadays it was like we were very much

kind of hit it at the right time

and uh

yeah so i started and it just sort of

snowballed and it sniffled really

quickly i remember there was a time

where

um

i was still

thatching on a roof five days of the

week

and then um i had an email come through

asking if i'd go to fly out to los

angeles to interview simon cowell

and yeah i flew out there and it was

first i'm ever experiencing a business

class flight i still had like straw in

my shoes from like being on the roof

and like hadn't showered like kind of

like just grotty thatcher getting on

this plane like a chauffeur-driven car

pulled up to her house and took me off

to the um heathrow airport and i went

through the it's like a little secret

bit

um where they put these barriers down

you have your own like private security

kind of thing and you go through and and

i was like it just blew my mind and and

uh i hadn't even got to los angeles yet

first time ever flying on my own like

solo

and uh that whole experience was just

like

the whole thing just didn't feel real it

did not feel real it just felt like i

was sort of like living like a double

life in a way of like

like yesterday i was on a roof

thatching and now i'm

sat in simon cowell's

fancy house sort of

talking to him about skype those

experiences

especially when they're really quick

when they go from zero to a hundred

people when that when i sit here with

them often talk to me about impostor

syndrome yeah

because

you as you said you're kind of living a

double life you're like what the [ __ ] am

i doing i'm just drawing my shoe in

simon cowling definitely yeah imposter

syndrome

there's definitely a lot of that going

on um and that must result in

overthinking and doubt and yeah all

those things yeah and that's another

thing actually that i would say to

younger joes but you're gonna get this

thing called imposter syndrome

um

you'll learn about it later

but

yeah it'll be there

um

and i've yeah i've had that even even

now to this day like

even

sort of like even now with this podcast

like i've listened to this podcast all

the time

and even on the way here i was a bit

nervous because i was like you get

like these you know these

incredible ceos all and these people

that are so good at talking and i

struggle to get a sentence together most

of the time and i'm like i even me i

feel like

there's people on there that have done

such amazing things and i'm like

even for me it still gives me that

little bit of imposter syndrome of like

there should be other people there's a

lot more people that should be sat in

this chair

rather than me what's the risk of that

because you know i met a lot of people

for me the risk is um

you end up like avoiding

like opportunities in life and stuff

because

i'm sure there must have been people

that we've asked to come on this podcast

before that through imposter syndrome

said no like they because we do get a

lot of people come here and they'll say

similar thing we've had i mean i can

think of a few people who literally came

here and was like i don't know why

you've asked me to be here

and that must impact performance it must

make the whole thing unpleasant i mean

at least the lead up anyway yeah until

i'm such a you know it does yeah i think

like a good example

for me is is

doing strictly or even um actually

probably more so i was uh

waitress in the west end so i i did a

stint on on the west standard waitress

and this was coming off the back of

doing strictly so my confidence actually

it completely changed me in a sense that

it gave me such a big boost of

confidence which i didn't hadn't

had for a long time

um

and so riding on that confidence i

agreed to do a audition for uh ogie and

waitress in the west end

and um

i remember i kept asking sort of my sort

of my team being like have they asked me

because of

like

strictly or you know will they be honest

and like if i'm not good enough will

they just tell i don't want to sort of

put me in it if i'm actually not good

because oh i'm not too standard that

they'd take someone on i mean if it's

not me

and uh they were they were sort of like

i think you're you know just go along

you'll be you'd go this kind of stuff

and um i remember even after doing the

audition and they said they really loved

it and things like that i still in my

mind i was still like but did you though

what like are you sure like are you sure

and especially like the

the the backlash that i kind of got from

that was

was quite like i mean it's it's nothing

that

sort of worried me too much but there

was a lot of like people that was

messaged me being like

you you don't deserve this as people

that have trained their entire lives in

musical theater

and they're not gonna they didn't get

that

they won't ever get that opportunity

because people like you coming in taking

those roles and so i started to have

like a massive and that kind of like

that imposter syndrome i already had got

amplified and i was like maybe i

shouldn't do it and just sort of but

then i wonder i wonder if there's been

any i wonder if there's been any times

where

people have then turned around and said

actually you know what i don't i don't

want this because

of what people on social media have said

did i mean or given their opinion on

um so that was a real sort of

that was a definitely a moment that

stands out to me of being like

i

probably shouldn't be here doing this

in your in your journey with social

media and youtube was there a moment

where you go that was where i really

started to see the symptoms of

getting burnt out by doing this was

there a year or a time we just thought

[ __ ] i don't want to i don't want to

open my emails i don't want to i don't

want to upload yeah there it was

i think around 2016

17 i think it might be

um i remember it clearly it was just a

time where there was just a lot going on

i think youtube was

like

uh

massive we were you know

like i think at the time i mean i run

at the time i've had three youtube

channels that i was trying to all keep

up at the same time and this was

actually before i had any i was doing it

all solo as well so i'd think of the

ideas i'd shoot them all edit them

um obviously distribute it i guess kind

of in a way market it by promoting it

putting it out there and trying to get

people to watch my stuff but i also had

a

uh a book coming out

which i was working on uh we'd also me

and casper did a feature

um with bbc studios like a sort of uh

like a straight dvd kind of like film of

us sort of traveling around in a camp

fan so there's a lot of things going on

and obviously lots of other different

things in the background

and it got to a point where i was like

my life as a roof thatcher before all

this was there was no

feeling like this how i'm feeling now it

was just i had my s

i had such a solid structure like up at

this time go to work until this time go

back unload the straw load up the van

again go and see my nan give her the

paper

go home go to the gym and then that was

it was that was it

there's been a lot of times throughout

my life where i've looked back and

thought that was like i think i think

it's because that's that structure it

does make you feel like it's

i i was living a more

yeah yeah

hand on heart

do you think if you'd never started

youtube you'd be happier overall over

the last 10

years hand or not

i think i i'm more happy the route i've

gone down

as well i think because the thing is i

can't i can never

sort of

as much as you know i

i've had my struggles online and stuff

actually the online has also been such a

big help for me and especially like in

terms of like youtube and the way that

i've worked with them and personally and

like had support from them has been

incredible so i'm very fortunate as a

creator on youtube that you youtube

actually give me a lot of support and

i've had a good team around me that have

given me the support

and the friendships and the family that

i've had around me

although i went through a time where i

did struggle a lot and i i had that burn

out and i had that sort of anxiety and

worry and self-doubt and stuff

i've

had a really good

set of people around me that have helped

me sort of get past that even with the

the roof thatching you know

i i look back on it now because i'm

so so far down a different path but if i

went back to thatching i'm sure there

were times where i'd be up on the roof

when it's like sideways rain wind

freezing cold thinking like what am i

doing up here like so i think it's all

sort of comparative to where you are at

certain points in your life did your

love for youtube shift though because

obviously

you start posting less frequently on

your main channel yep

to the point where

it and it's funny because as someone

that's kind of observed the whole

youtube journey over the years there

seems to have been this point which

you've literally spoken about where

multiple youtubers appear to have kind

of vanished a little bit yeah and then

they end up posting a video saying

like almost giving their reason why

saying they're going to come back yes

there's another one a year later saying

they're going to come back and they

never come back what is going on i think

i mean i have to see i can't speak for

everyone but for myself personally i i

think it's

partly because

your my audience have all grown up or

the audience i had back then they've all

got older they've all they're all in

there sort of i presume a lot of ones

started watching me when they were 14

15. they're all now in their 20s they've

got their own stuff going on and the

stuff that i

knew how to make back then is not what

they want to consume now as content it's

what i sort of gauge from it

i have like i have i have a guess as

well which is i think very much in line

with what you're saying i think that the

algorithm might have changed a little

bit yeah and i think that

i think a few things happen when that

happens so i think as a creator you get

psychologically demotivated yeah when

you're doing the same work and you're

not getting you're getting uh basically

you're getting a vote from your audience

to say which sounds like we don't like

it yeah anymore yeah and then it seemed

like that happened all at the same time

with that initial sort of youtube cohort

and so a lot of them

because they saw declining numbers and

whatever they were making decided to try

other formats and other things and go

into other places i remember back in the

day like youtube seemed to be much

shorter form videos yep and now you have

a lot of long-form stuff a lot of

55-minute hour joe rogan three-hour

videos on there yes there's always like

rumors that go around being like oh this

you heard the latest this is what now

you know this is what the algorithm

wants and stuff and i i agree with that

to a degree but i also think

you've got the people that take it to

the extreme sometimes and like you know

the reason why i'm not doing this

because of this and i i never want to

solely blame it i think that's why i

don't always blame it on an algorithm

this might go back to me being the sort

of

self-doubting kind of imposter syndrome

type vibe again of thinking like it's

not just because of this mechanical

thing that goes on in the background

it's also because

i need to switch things up and change my

you know who i am online or what i'm

doing online

uh i need to move i need to shift what

i'm doing with the times and i think

that's

harder

than i

then i thought when i was sort of like

i'm gonna change my stuff now and it's i

think it's

more difficult than i thought was there

a point where you you saw numbers

decline and you thought where you start

to think wait a minute this this is not

how it used to be yeah yeah when was

that it was

right before i

said yes to doing strictly

i thought you know it'll be fine i'll

get used to it and try with different

content and things and i started to post

different stuff and it just wasn't doing

performing as well as it used to and i'd

always kind of like prepared myself for

it like my dad actually gave me a good

piece of advice and looking back on it

of being like

this what you're doing now is great but

you know in the future it's only gonna

get more people trying to do what you do

and there's many people there's always

there's always people out there that

have

new talents and stuff and it's gonna

it's gonna change over time and there's

gonna be people that come into this that

have got

you know not saying that

yeah there's many people that come into

it that

have got

super talent and stuff that's completely

dominate and things in it so you unless

you've got really got something about

you

you're gonna

struggle to keep up because it's gonna

get bigger and bigger and i kind of like

i look back now i'm like actually

a lot of what he said

makes sense you know there is you know

it's that's the sort of way it's gone

how do you define yourself now

who are you now like as a from a

self-definition point not that that's

something i like to do to myself i don't

like to self-define but if you if you're

someone if someone asks you to write a

bio what'd you say

it's one of the hardest things for me to

answer it genuinely is if if i'm ever

asked to

sort of sum myself up what i do i just i

think it's like my instagram bio is like

i

i am creative or something like that

because i don't i find it so hard to

sort of pigeonhole myself as this is

what i do and this is what i am um

so i'd say like

it's it's difficult i just like to say

i'm just a creative person

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honestly it's been one of the real sort

of game changers in my business

you wrote a book

right

about being outside and in nature

it seems like a fairly unobvious

topic for someone like yourself to write

about so it's very compelling

why why did you decide to write about

this about the importance of going

outside during

the lockdown we're all sort of looking

for things to keep us busy and and i

like we mentioned before i love hobbies

i'm always looking for things to do and

i had like a balcony that ran off from

my living area

and i got into

gardening in that small little balcony

of the things i could do at the time and

the things i had lying around i got

really into it and i was like sort of

like caring for

a plant i'm just trying to make a plant

grow or putting time and effort into

something else

um and and sort of not being in the sort

of

the whirlwind was going on online on our

phones and stuff at that time

disconnecting myself from that and sort

of reconnecting myself with something as

simple as as nature

made me feel so good it took away all

kind of anxieties um

i just felt very calm and very like

it took me back to

my childhood in a sense of like how i

grew up i was very lucky to grow up in a

in a

little uh cottage type place um so

getting all that thoughts it's it's part

memoir i talk a lot about like growing

up in the countryside and like and sort

of things actually living in london and

and all that kind of stuff but also

a part practical guide of hopefully

giving some tips for other people in

terms of like how

they can find their own balance that

suits them in terms of the real world

and social media world it's quite a

personal pivot isn't it going from being

a youtuber who's uploading across three

youtube channels and is glued to a

screen to

standing here holding these pots

yeah yeah

yeah it is very different i think but

that's

that's kind of like how i've been i like

to separate out

like those two things and what i've

realized is separating those two things

out is really beneficial for me

um

but it's but it's in no way sort of

saying that social media is bad and this

kind of thing you shouldn't be on social

media because like it's a tool that we

all use and we kind of like

need to use that in terms of like we've

got a personal computer in our hands

it's kind of like an extension of our

arm we use it for so many things so it's

not saying like don't use your phone

your phone is evil it's more kind of

like

finding a balance that's right for you

that

is going to help you feel better about

yourself mentally

on that point of thinking um

mental health has become an increasing

conversation over the last uh 10 years

social media has played it's kind of sat

in the middle of that debate um being

someone that started a big social media

business i talk about this a lot um and

obviously you know people when we talk

about social media and mental health

they'll say well you made all your money

from it so

and and my rebuttal is always the same

which is

you know if i if i've spent 10 years

within it and i knew there was something

wrong and i didn't tell you

yeah i'd make me even more of an [ __ ]

right just because it had made me money

so having having been like very deep in

social media over the last 10 years i

think we're probably more qualified than

most talk about the impacts it has on us

um the mind for better and for worse

when you were going through your hard

times on social media when you were

having those real anxious moments where

um you've written a few things about how

there was about a two-year period with

when when you'd really got going where

you just had this overwhelming sensation

that felt like it was impossible to

escape

wha why are you telling anybody about it

were you talking to people were you

speaking to zoe your family and saying

i'm getting anxiety right now yeah i'm

also my sister cause my sister has

suffered with it a lot throughout her

career um so

i

i found it i was very lucky that i could

speak to her about it and um and

obviously got a therapist as well um

that was recommended to me um through my

sister do you remember that first time

you spoke to her about it

she was she was very good about it to be

fair because she's been through a lot of

that stuff she sort of

um straight away made me feel better

in knowing that

at least

sort of acknowledging what it is and

then bringing some sort of understanding

to it

um but it definitely definitely helped

having someone so close to me like my

sister being able to sort of help with

that

and you spoke to a therapist about this

yes going to see a therapist has a lot

of stigma surrounding it so especially

men are often very reluctant to do that

because i think especially once upon a

time going and seeing a therapist meant

that i was

crazy oh yeah yeah so

your journey to actually getting into

the into therapy can you talk to me

about that process and what

pushed you ultimately to take that step

yeah i think for me it was

i was

i never saw it as a

sort of

i i don't know whether it's because of

my

sister

once again like through everything sort

of in a way sort of paving the way

through that of like being like

she was

um seeing single therapist so i already

felt like with my sister my big sister

can do it then then i can i mean she you

know if she can do it i can i could do

it so i was quite lucky in a sense it

was actually a very easy process for me

what has therapy done for you

practically is there anything that's it

really helped me with that particular

challenge that i had

it's made me

realize that i

am a i've got a thing about people

pleasing i'm a people pleaser

so i

i often

feel like i can't be my unapologetic

self in a situation

without

risking causing offense to someone i'm

like terrified of upsetting someone or

saying the wrong thing i'm learning

through therapy that how to sort of

manage that and to acknowledge it first

and foremost and then to sort of and

we're working on that at the moment of

trying to sort of work on like why

i have this thing of

being worried so much about what other

people think about what i do

it's a tough business to be in if you if

you have that as a kind of

predisposition has your therapist been

able to offer you any advice about

overthinking at all

yes

uh

more so in like the sort of anxiety

side of things there's three there's

there was i think two or three points

that she suggested and it's like

de-de-catastrophizing

the catastrophe

um using time to separate so like if i'm

if i'm feeling anxious

i've got a sort of

the way you think about time helps for

example i was at um

chelsea flower show recently with my mum

and um

i was i was engaged in conversation with

someone else and i was but my mind was

thinking like there's so much going on

around me and i started to feel anxious

i just needed to get out of there and it

started to make me feel sick that i was

like i couldn't leave and i and i had um

i remember had a glass of champagne in

my hand and i was like i don't know what

to do because i can't i was starting to

think of all these different scenarios

of being like i can't just be sick here

because i'm in like someone's garden

i can't just like i can't just run away

and leave big conversations i'm so

worried about going to them sorry

i can't listen to what you're saying

right now because my mind is

panicking i need to go

i was so worried about how they would

think of me so it's like all that going

on but if you

what i've learned is that if you take

that and think this conversation is max

going to last five minutes

that helps and he's like no that after

those five minutes you can walk over

there and you can be on your own and do

this kind of stuff and it's going to

help so it's like kind of like if you're

going into something that you think oh

it's going to be a five hour

thing or exactly two hour exam you break

it down into like chunks so it's like

i've got okay this two-hour exam is

uh

four 30-minute chunks

and that that starts to make me feel

less

anxious about things and then also sort

of thinking ahead of that whole thing so

you've got an exam thinking well after

this i'm gonna go and do this this and

this and this and when you're thinking

about things further in the future it

actually starts to

make

make me feel more calm diane

you met her on strictly yes

strictly gave you a lot didn't it yeah

it did yeah yeah

what was really interesting is that was

your first girlfriend yeah

that's that's first yeah first real

girlfriend first real proper girlfriend

yeah at what age

27 26 yeah i wonder if

had you met her outside of strictly if

you would be together

yeah because it seems like you would

have done a pretty good job of

overthinking your way

it's we have the same conversation we're

like how lucky it was in a way that

we were

even punting together because when your

partner's if you're if we weren't even

partners on the show we're on the same

show we still say we may not have got

together because when you're actually

with your partners you don't see each

other throughout the week

so

we're like this we sort of see it as

like the stars sort of realigned there

and we and but it wasn't um

it was it was an odd sort of uh

situation i guess it's not it's not how

i thought it would happen i used to be

quite like nervous about sort of getting

a girlfriend publicly because

i would always think what

because i had at the time i had this

sort of uh

large female young female demographic

that were

that really into sort of what i did and

things like that and i was kind of like

i've seen through like friends i've got

girlfriends you know and when they

introduce their girlfriends to their

audience it's a bit kind of like a i

always thought it would be a very

private thing and in my head the whole

time i was like you'll be very private

and it's actually end up being the

complete opposite it's like you can now

watch the moment we met which is

kind of unusual

it seems from just speaking to you today

and getting to know you but it does seem

like that was the perfect way for you to

get past because you were forced

together yeah yeah yeah and it's you

know what i mean in the context of the

show you were forced to spend time with

each other you weren't there to fall in

love but they put you together to do

this very quite intimate thing very deep

journey over many many months yep and it

feels like from from just understanding

you a little bit that was probably the

best way for you to get past a lot of

that sort of talking yourself out of it

100 and you know what you you you see

the i feel like

on that in that environment anyway

especially for me it's like we saw i

feel like we saw the best and the worst

in each other over that sort of 16 week

period

there had been times where we were going

to training in like things we weren't

going to plan without going home and we

you know stress

the further you go in that competition

the higher the

pressure is and the stress gets and

things like that so we we saw the best

and the worst of each other within those

16 excuse me everything is 16 weeks

and um and i was and afterwards i was

kind of like

when we even sort of like had time to

really kind of sort of address

things like posts

um and be like i actually kind of want

to spend more time with you because i

felt like i kind of i've seen the best

and the worst and i can you know i'm

happy with that and it is vice versa and

so um so yeah that's how it

you know sort of how it sort of happened

so the show ends yeah you get to the

final you do very well

and then fun you did the tour yes which

everyone a lot of people do and they

love that process as well when did you

decide that

your dance partner was not just a dance

partner and was

a girlfriend it was it was actually it

was before the tour before the tour was

before the tour yeah it was after the

show finished

um and like a few days after we had time

to sort of like we obviously missed each

other because we didn't see each other

so after we realized like i do miss like

miss spending time with you and things

like that so obviously we had a

conversation had a sort of decided and

to see each other more often and things

like that and we actually then went

uh went away

to a place in the new forest wait a

minute that was very quick you had a

conversation on whatsapp or in person no

no like in person okay so you met up a

few times yeah yeah yeah and then

straight to the phone and then uh we

went yeah we went uh we went to

the new forest like a little trip right

um

and i remember we were getting like

followed because there's a lot of like

um

sort of there was a lot of like

attention on us at the time i think

and um and so yeah we were getting we're

getting followed by

a guy like i'm very like sort of

aware of like what's going on around me

and stuff i think it's i think it's just

from the career that i've had in the

last ten years i don't know but i'm like

i was like that guy who's part i could

see from my flat i was like that guy's

parked there he's a

paparazzi paparazzi yeah and um

this is going to sound really like

really wanky but i i i was lent to aston

martin that that morning

so i went down and i was like this is

the best i should do things like this

more often i get

lent cars like this and i was like and

so i went down and um

parked it and he must have seen me parks

and you knew what car to follow and

later on that day i was driving along

and i looked to the review mirror i was

like i think we're being followed

and then um i recognized the like the

license plate was something to do with

the car

and um and it put me on so much edge i

was like driving along thinking like i

actually can't concentrate on driving

because yeah i know this person is just

trying to follow us

um

so

i i um

i yeah i sort of turned off from where i

was trying to go to because i don't want

to actually turn up to where we're going

so i was like trying to like show you

shake him off a little bit so i was like

right diane you know how to work

bluetooth yeah put on the james bond

theme song

and we had that moment of just like

trying to sort of avoid

um this this guy

who was following us and we did manage

to do it obviously very safely did the

pictures come out in the paper no no

nothing luckily because we were moving

on the move

um but but yeah i remember that very

clearly of that kind of like a moment of

being like

this is not what

i'm used to at all don't know if i like

this but but then yeah that's where we

sort of

yeah that's where you're a couple years

into the relationship now yeah you live

together right yes yeah

how's it going yeah it's going good yeah

going really well it's

it's really nice because we are both

very like she's also one of the

professional dancers so she's still very

much involved in the show and and when

the show is not on she's involved in the

tours and things like that so a lot of

our time is separate and we had one year

obviously 2019 was a year we were like

together

and

but we had our own stuff that we're

working on it's a very busy year for me

and also a very busy year for her with

like tours and and back then even like i

think they do like cruise like i did

like cruise ships and stuff as well so

like

loads of different tours and stuff so we

were away a lot of each a lot of the

time but then when we come together

it's so nice because we've got so much

to there's they say like distance makes

the heart grow fonder and all that kind

of stuff and i i genuinely kind of i do

believe in that i think especially in

this sort of situation like

although we are away from each other

a fair bit because of our work

commitments and stuff

it works really really well and like

when we do when we are together

it's nice just to spend quality time

together

um

but yeah no i'm absolutely loving it

we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the previous guest asks a

question for the next guest not knowing

who they're asking it for

do you remember

a moment

where you realized

that you loved your job

when was it and why

and was there a moment when you realized

you hated your job

when was it and why oh

good question

um

the moment that i remember that i loved

my job

was

there's there's a lot of little moments

that stick out but i think

this is going back to like the old

youtube gang so like me my sister um

alfie marcus butler jim tanya a lot of

that kind of

the brickery we were called back in the

day um we got invited to

harry potter world

um

and i'm

i've i'll admit i'm not the biggest

harry potter fan but

just being around like having like a day

out with with that group that first sort

of because it's kind of like our first

sort of big group out somewhere and just

being around these people we're all

going through

the same situation which i really

appreciate the fact that others people

within this group that i could chat to

and speak to about

what was going on and it was such a new

and exciting time and we're all kind of

on that journey up

um and i remember that's all that memory

is always stuck in my head and there's

weirdly there's a there's a vlog i've

vlogged we all vlogged it so it's like

it's actually been documented so we can

go back and watch it in the future and

stuff but

um that really sticks out so what about

the second part of that question the so

a moment sorry a moment where i hated my

job yeah

i guess it was the time where

i had that burnout feeling and i was

i had so much going on i just thought

you know what i actually don't really

know if i want to do this anymore and i

i remember telling my manager at the

time

um alex

uh

that i was like i just don't know if i

want to do it there's too much going on

i don't i actually

can't really

handle it i'm you know and i'm thinking

about

my old job and how much sort of simpler

that was and thinking like it's like but

i had all these things going for my head

of like that thing of like don't be

ungrateful but also i am struggling with

it

um and i guess that moment

would feel like the time that i hated it

but it didn't last very long because

my manager at the time alex she sent me

a like a care package she like went out

above and beyond and sent me this care

package of like a a book and

um weirdly it was a harry potter book

which as you know not not the biggest

fan but

at the time it was exactly like i said

it's exactly what i needed um

so but right before she saved the day it

was um

yeah tough sorry about that that time i

think

um joe thank you so much thank you for

your time thank you for writing a really

important book i think thank you these

kind of messages

in the digital overstimulated world

we're living in especially our

generation the generation that are

coming are very very important and

they're very simplifying which i love

because it's very easy to write very

complex things that are um that try and

make things more complicated than they

are in order to make yourself sound

super smart or to try and trick people

to buy something or to think you're a

scientist but i love stuff that is

simplifying it makes it much more

accessible

um and i think that is that is why i

love this particular book so much but i

also really appreciate your honesty

because you're talking about topics and

themes that on one hand very few people

will ever get to experience with the

crazy career that you had in youtube and

that you're having in the media and all

of these things but but also topics that

are not always easy to talk about which

is

the difficult harder times and and that

balance is exactly why we do what we do

here so thank you for your time thank

you very much pleasure thanks for having

me i can't see wait to see what happens

next so

safe

i had a few words to say about one of my

sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend

came upstairs yesterday when i was

having a shower and she said to me that

she tried the heel protein shake which

lives on my fridge over there and she

said it's amazing low calories you get

your 20 odd grams of protein you get

your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's

nutritionally complete in the protein

space there's lots of things but it's

hard to find something that is nice

especially when consumed just with water

and that is nutritionally complete the

salted caramel one if you put some ice

cubes in it and you put it in a blender

and you try it is as good as pretty much

any milkshake on the market just mixed

with water it's been a game changer for

me because i'm trying to drop my calorie

intake and i'm trying to be a little bit

more healthy with my diet so this is

where heel fits in my life thank you

hill for making a product that i

actually like

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