one of the reasons i step back from

social media was because i if something

can manifest so

physically that you're having a [ __ ]

seizure

then you probably need to take this more

seriously and that was you know like

that was that was tough

and that for me is my happiness

grace beverly ceo founder of two

multi-million dollar companies

one's a fashion empire that's focused on

sustainability and one's a fitness

empire comprising a mobile app

a supplements business and gym equipment

she did all of that

while studying and graduating from

oxford university while growing her

online channels to millions and millions

of followers

while writing a book and while dealing

with all of the things that every other

gen z person has to deal with at the age

of 23

23 and on the surface it's easy to

understand while

looking in someone might love to have

grace's life

but as you start to peel back the layers

as we do in this conversation you begin

to understand

her obsessive attention to detail the

weight of her workload

and the personal cost of her

accomplishments and you see

the impact that those things have had on

all parts of her life

and it makes you reconsider despite all

of this

she's persisted she stayed true to her

values she's doubled down on the things

she loves the most

and she's cut out some of the things

that no longer serve her she's learned

she's learned lessons that most of us

would take a lifetime to learn

and she's 23. it blows my mind

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the driver ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this yourself

grace i started my business at 18 years

old as well

you um you faced a different set of

challenges not only have you started

your business at an incredibly young age

or

at least you got into business at an

incredibly young age you face a set of

challenges that are even alien to me in

the sense that you are a woman in

business

um you are taking on various industries

that don't want to be taken on and that

really are sort of

incumbent monopolies in the space of

fast fashion and fitness and those

things

i guess my first question is why did you

choose business

and what gave you the

what gave you the confidence to pursue a

career that's filled with so much

uncertainty at such a

young age i think i think people often

assume that the first part of it always

has to be a kind of

i'm going to start this i'm going to do

this and i think that mine

absolutely wasn't that at all and i

think that that's what often makes me

kind of question

you know the amount of things that have

had to fall into place for this to

happen and of course you know there's

hard work in that but there's also so

many other things that have had to go

right

um so for me you know as i kind of said

when

i was 18 and working doing an internship

at ibm that's kind of when i started and

i just started doing some i essentially

started monetizing something that should

be monetized so it's content i was

giving away

for free and then i was going to do lots

more of that and so i decided to

monetize it

via an ebook um and then you know the

next year i did more of that and then

that's you know then it started picking

up momentum i started doing different

products and i think that

that's i guess often not seen in the way

that business is

represented it's kind of seen as like a

eureka moment then you go and do it then

you put it into action then you fail

once or twice and then you get it

and that it was far more gradual than

that and i think that

probably over the past you know so it's

probably been so it's been five years

since that moment i'd say four years

since the business it's ready that it is

now

has um i guess was founded um

and in that time probably the first two

years were incredibly gradual

very much a kind of residual extra

income um rather than

kind of this big like these are my goals

this is gonna happen within this time

um so i guess in that it's been a

gradual process

i think the confidence has gathered

through that and a lot of the time i

haven't been confident enough to do that

but have i guess just done it anyway so

you know when i was when i did kind of

my second set of ebooks which was in my

first year at university

that was literally because my student

loan didn't come through like that was

that was the only reason so

as in i don't think it was necessarily a

confidence thing i think it was more

okay like what are we gonna do in that

situation

um and then putting that together and

then being able to you know leverage a

platform to be able to

monetize that so and then from then

onwards obviously it's been very

mindful it's been very kind of strategic

and that's how it's happened but i guess

i guess the answer is that the

confidence hasn't always been there and

it hasn't always been a kind of i'm

going to take on this industry

sure starting tala that that was um but

but the rest of it

a lot of it has been gradual a lot of it

has been this kind of

more just a cumulative

making one decision at a time um

which is i guess what i kind of try and

show as well so that people can know

that it doesn't always need to be this

one big decision

and this one big business that's going

to be the biggest business in the world

it can just be you know something you're

just doing in that moment

the world has changed recently over the

last 12 months because of the pandemic a

lot of people have lost their jobs and

so

freelance websites and entrepreneurship

has now become more in focus as

people are trying to find ways to give

themselves a little bit more stability

in their income

and when i speak to my friends that are

you know your age 23 years old right

24 next week a week after sorry um or

who are younger 18 19 or even

older um everybody seems to have a

business idea yeah and i'm sure you're

bombarded with dms

like this right everyone has a business

idea um there seems to be this

barrier between the idea and taking

the first step like making uh the

instagram page

and is the the barrier between that is

it confidence

in your view what is it i think

it's probably specific to the situation

the person the circumstance so

you know i was when i was at university

if

you know i think that there was

something that came together to make me

do that but i was also at university

in a place and in a time that i could

take i guess

a a risky decision in terms of how i

spend my time in terms of what i'm

putting together i wasn't

i guess i wasn't doing a part-time job

at the time that i could have put into

that

and so you know part of it is

circumstance in the way that people

a lot of people don't necessarily have

the

the backing to put behind it or it might

be the the time they can

put into it you know lots of people are

working three jobs just to make ends

meet and therefore

you know you might have an idea but

actually being able to sacrifice the

time spent doing that isn't an option

and i think but then i think a lot of

the time as well i think it can be

confidence out of that circumstance it

can be

um or outside of that circumstance it

can be you know

should i be doing this why should i be

doing this and i think that

a lot of the ideas that i've had you

know i'm sure you'll

have the same like there'll be ideas

that you have kind of the whole time and

it's choosing the right ones and it's

choosing

and it's being able to test it i think

i'm sure if i tested out my first

i guess what has turned into shreddy now

if i tested that out

um you know even more gradually or if it

hadn't worked or whatever

i don't know how tenacious i would have

been in terms of actually making that

happen

and as i say it's been like an

accumulation of that confidence and

actually testing things realizing their

work and then

replicating that so i think

i mean i think we can't necessarily

blanket apply it to everyone and be like

it's because of this it's because of

this but i think that you know probably

the biggest

the biggest factors will be circumstance

confidence um

and yeah i guess there are so many

things that can stop you but there are

also so many things that can enable you

to say okay

well this is this is this i'm gonna i'm

gonna make it happen or i'm gonna take

that leap or i'm gonna at least do the

background work we'll do a survey to see

if my product would be liked or

whatever it might be i think as well if

people looking at you or

myself that have achieved things in

business will see this very polished

product right

and they'll think well i'm so far from

that so i'm i'm so far from being

capable

of what that person has achieved but as

you've described that which i think is

so

powerful and important for you it was

taking one step up

a very very thousand stair staircase at

a time

and and as you say when we look at you

now on step 934 we think oh my god like

you know you must

you probably get this comment a lot

right she's like you must be so proud of

yourself yeah

which is like well it's been one step at

a time so yeah you know and i think you

can be proud of the steps along the way

but i also think that i look back at

some

not necessarily some products but you

know some branding some

content some all of that and i look at

it and i'm like it was crap

like that is awful like as in i would

just scroll right past that or i

wouldn't you know

and of course things have changed

people's like tastes have changed and

all of that that kind of goes into

branding and product and all of that but

there was something you know i've sold

everything from

you know like t-shirts to notebooks to

like whatever it would be

it's not what the everything that's

accumulated now

is the good things that have then been

replicated it's not

everything gets kind of replicated and

then you know you see all of the

end products there have been some things

that never ended up as an end product

because they were so [ __ ] in the first

place that they were never you know they

didn't deserve that extra time on them

so i think you're completely right there

is this kind of and i i think it's also

perpetuated by

you know unknowingly often by people

like ourselves so

you know like i i think i look at the

stuff i share and i look at it and my

god i'm so much more likely to share if

it's this or

you know if this product worked out well

and

and subconsciously because there was an

end of that journey we don't necessarily

say like oh this was the thing that

actually went really wrong

because you know it's embarrassing like

you don't want to share that you don't

or you don't kind of think too because

you don't think of the kind of like

pride in the journey that's got to that

point

um and so it i guess it all does

you know you will just see the the good

things or you might see the bad things

that are positioned in an

inspirational way but it's still curated

but it's still

what i guess is want to be seen and to

to my other point about being uh a woman

in business

that comes with a whole unique set of

challenges you know i've heard you talk

about being

underestimated not taken seriously

before speak to me about some of those

challenges that i wouldn't even

you know know about so i think first

i always also think it is important to

preface this with the fact that

yes i'm a woman in business i'm also

white able-bodied

i was privately educated i went dogs but

a kind of huge

list of things that need to be

i guess contextualized which i've always

thought is

important and i think that i think that

it's

you know i won't face half the

challenges that

a black woman would face in the same

position i think the challenges i do

face are you know they are

kind of often and they have to be they

have to be worked um

through i guess and and that's been you

know

a journey there have been you know

people who

have wanted to work for the businesses

who clearly

won't accept the fact that you know this

i'm not the face of it like i am

acting ceo and you know i do do x y and

z

and there have also been you know it's

been the same with partnerships it's

been the same with

you know i think people people have a

certain perception that's definitely

warped and increased and perpetuated by

online presence and the fact that i

don't just

share my work and um and i think that

you know it does come down to it does

come down to these preconceptions and i

know as well

since i've started realizing this i have

preconceptions as well you know we'll

say like

it's about a woman who's high up who you

hear about and you're like oh god

they're doing really well

like why don't i have that and i think

you know i often think like oh well you

know apparently they're really hard to

work with or like they're like whatever

and

we all have these own kind of like our

own like internalized

sexist whatever it might be

preconceptions in terms of these things

as well and

i think that it often comes for women

who are successful you look at them you

either think

you probably think one of two things you

either think or maybe one of three

things you think wow amazing

must be superwoman or you think wow

amazing

but like oh i've never seen a partner or

like children like

do you think they're happy in their

personal lives or you think

wow but they're kind of like either they

haven't actually done it they've just

been put at the front of it

or they're like a [ __ ] or really you

know

really [ __ ] or like a tyrant or

whatever it is and like that is

and i think that when i look at that i'm

like actually that's probably the way i

see some people you know that's probably

the way that is

in some ways for you know for

for me and my conceptions and i think

that it's it's just it's it's what it's

it's what it's become and it's actually

obviously got better in some ways

you know it's got hugely better since

probably like the 1950s and whatever

but there's still a long way to go in

that respect

when i knew that we were going to be

having this conversation i i looked into

the general sentiment around your brand

and you've got a huge

hugely engaged wonderful community of

people um you've got this you know this

true

like i'd call it a fan base or

supporters that understand you and they

get you probably because they followed

you for a long time

and they followed your vlogs and they

like know who you are right and then

as is the case with pretty much every

um successful person i've seen there's

also the antithesis of that there's the

opposite there's people who

as you said we will try and highlight

reasons why

you maybe don't deserve to be where you

are you don't deserve credit this is

something that pretty

most of the guests i face um i've sat

with have faced to some degree

it's it's not easy to take right because

um i know right i come from a slightly

different background but

i know that irrespective of background

you have to work hard really

really [ __ ] hard be honest with me

how does that feel

i think that i think it's an important

discussion to have first and foremost i

think that

and i think i'll be the first to say

that and i think a lot of you know i

spend a lot of

time in the book for example

contextualizing success because i think

it's

very important especially when you know

you're presented

three people on your instagram feed with

in the same square and one of them you

make from school one of them's you

like your mum and one of them's beyonce

and it's kind of like this

democratization of

the news feed that makes everything look

the same and you don't see

the teams you don't see the privilege

you don't see all of the above and i

think that it's a very important

conversation to have so

to be perfectly honest i'd be rather

people have that conversation

and maybe write off my success based on

that

i think that i think also aside from

that i do think that you know a lot of

the people who

the people who do follow me and have

followed me for a long time know my work

ethic

and they know that i work hard and they

know that you know often that's been an

unhealthy amount you know

i use work as a coping mechanism so it's

been through the worst times of my life

that's what i know i can do

and that's what i throw myself into and

i think that

i'd rather that conversation be had and

me be able to know

in myself why i've been successful and

how i've worked

and i think that i think that that's

you know i guess first and foremost

that's important and that's how i'm able

to

i guess push through and be able to do

what i do

is because i know why it is i also know

that there have been things that have

helped me

and then you know i guess that doesn't

matter i guess the

important thing is that we're able to

have the conversations and able to like

i'm able to know as well

in myself i know that's a very mature

position to take

i've got to be honest it's a very mature

position to take but i

i'm skeptical as to whether it's always

been as easy to take as that and you've

you know so talk to me about the process

yeah i mean i think that any justified

criticism

or you know might be justified it might

be unjustified criticism is hard to take

i don't i think you can have a mature

standpoint towards something

and equally you're still going to feel

like a punch in the stomach of course

and that's and that's fine and i think

that

one of the things that i wouldn't wish

you know when i think for my

children that i wouldn't necessarily

want them to be in is i wouldn't want

them to be

in a higher profile position when

they're younger um

and because i you know i talk about i

have this whole chapter in

the book which is essentially a i guess

probably like the most honest i've been

in a long time because

it's you know as i've said it's a

there's no instant feedback loop

there's i can write this and not hear

about back from it for you know like a

year

and it's me talking about how actually

essentially i feel like a lot of

i became known at a time where

my self-confidence was at its worst and

therefore i was able to

i guess rather than feeling that lack of

confidence with confidence and

self-worth

i filled it with validation and

therefore when i decided to take a step

back from social media because i decided

that wasn't

what i wanted to do kind of first and

foremost as my job

that kind of bandage was ripped off

because it didn't exist

and that's when i realized that you know

these things are the things that we need

to be able to deal with and we need to

be able to

i guess cobble together to be able to

you know no matter whether this person

thinks x y and z about yourself

how much does that matter if it does

matter and if you do think it's wrong

are you going to do something

about it and can you still get on with

your day essentially

and i think that there are people who

are amazing who i see on social media

who i wouldn't give a single

criticism to that i can think of that

i'm sure get the exact

same thing and there are people who have

been to hell and back and get the exact

same thing

and there are people who actually have

done you know have lucked out and

get the exact same thing and in the

grand scheme of things i don't think it

necessarily matters i think what matters

is that you know in yourself

and you also know that if there's

something you need to change

then you can change that like if you

want to if i guess sometimes when

something

like other things you know like hit a

nerve or whatever like do you need to

change that do you need to address

that do you need to do better um so i

think that

that's that's kind of how i tackle it

but of course no there's not like a

something in me where i you know get a

message that says you look ugly and i'm

like thank you

that's not an initial reaction but i

think that you have to be

you have to be rational when we're not

designed to be taking this much feedback

and criticism or

even if it's not criticism if someone

like i say the whole time oh i don't

like that

color i don't like like clothing or like

whatever it might be

to the designer that might like rip them

to shreds or whatever it's not mean

it's an opinion and we're not designed

to be able to take that in so

i think that there has to be a sort of

rationalization on a human

part or on your like if you are in that

position you have a duty to yourself to

learn how to deal with that or to remove

yourself from the situation

otherwise it's just untenable i guess

um you've got you know two businesses

two key businesses and

um when you run a business when you're

young irrespective of age

you undergo a couple of things real like

unexpected chaos at any given moment

then also a tremendous amount of

sacrifice

i actually want to start on the

sacrifice piece because i don't think

people as you said earlier get to fully

see the full picture

of sacrifice and cost um both personal

and professional whatever

so talk to me about some of the

sacrifice that even you didn't expect

before you got into business and before

your business grew

um i think that at the same time as i

kind of benefited hugely from

the you know having money at university

for example

i also went to university expecting one

thing

and then actually spent it essentially

getting up at x hour working on

university stuff because i never ever

ever wanted to give them an excuse to

think that i wasn't

concentrating fully on my university and

then

working all the way essentially

way into the night to get the other

stuff done and i also you know that

comes with

being high profile that comes with all

of these things so i guess one of those

things was very much like there was the

time

and the life experience and all of that

that because things took off

quickly at one stage even if it wasn't

like

it wasn't that the businesses took off

you know the businesses have done much

more over the past year and a half or

whatever when i haven't been at uni

but at that point you know the the high

profileness

all of that that came with i guess

different to what i was expecting um and

um or not what i was expecting i wasn't

expecting it at all and therefore there

was kind of i guess

you know something that i really did

want for myself i didn't get but i also

got

um you know a lot more in another way

for yourself well i just wanted the

university experience really and i think

that i was

so once this took off i'm a very

determined person and i

i get i get a vision and i'll work for

it

day and night and i think that i

actually

got to i think in that instance you

it's kind of like a fork in the road and

you decide okay well i'm taking this one

and i'm going to concentrate on this i'm

going to grow the businesses and all of

that and then

i think as well i saw the deadline for

that as my end of university because if

i had to

if it wasn't as big as i wanted it to be

by that time or if it wasn't

you know whatever it might be i was

gonna

choose i was gonna go into a normal

career um and i think that um so

i was so dedicated to making that happen

rather than you know i wanted to grow up

too quickly essentially i'm

23 like i you know i'm and i think that

a lot of that has been

i guess in terms of people's whether

when it's people who meet you their

kind of perception of you or whatever it

might be and so i think that was

something

where it was a choice i'd make again and

again but it was i guess a sacrifice

that i wasn't

expecting to make and i guess that comes

with everything that comes with you know

relationships with friends

with time in general with

you know time to yourself time to

whatever i think

having a business in a way and i'm sure

some people will disagree but i'm

having a business in a way is like

having a baby and you can't just

you can't just like up and do whatever

you can't

you can't say no when a crisis comes in

at 1am you can't like

that is what it is you get all the other

benefits

with those conditions and so i think

that you know that's

kind of a constant one like you can't

you can't say oh i'm gonna

quit this and go and do this for two

years because

especially when you've got x amount of

people working for you you've got all of

their salaries you've got all of their

pensions you've got you know like

it's it's a huge responsibility stops

with you right

yeah and and and that's you know it's

it's

it's an important one do you sometimes i

reflect on uh

the business journey and just how like

obsessive it is and all consuming it is

and i think it's a bit of a disease i'm

like

why did i choose this to like it's

almost like masochistic

yeah like obviously it's got the most

amazing benefits but it is also like i

remember what

i remember my friend i can't remember

i think i really we'd agreed to just

just lock down things we'd agreed to

watch a movie

on a sunday night and then the sink came

up and i was just like

you know what i'm gonna like i'm gonna

do this i'm just gonna work harder so

it's just gonna be easier for this week

and it was like

tiny sacrifice and my housemate turned

around to me and she was like

what is the point of were you working

this hard for this many years if you

can't watch a movie on a sunday night

and i was like

yeah like as in like

you're not wrong like i'm still gonna do

it but like you know you're not wrong

like it's what is the answer to that

question though so say

because i've muddled over this as well

if i'm working obsessively every day at

what point does

is enough yeah i think that it all comes

with what you want and i think that you

know i've

i've listened to you before and i've

listened to you kind of saying that you

know there came a point that you

realized that it wasn't about money so

like what was it about

and i think for me there's the kind of

aspect of

it's it's for the businesses and i have

these really clear dreams for the

businesses that result in dreams for me

as well

sure but i think that that is

i think i'll come to a you know if i

decide to sell a business or whatever

i'll come to that road there where i'm

like okay what is it for now

and i think that knowing myself anyway

i know pre-business post-business i'm

sure

i am like that so

whether it's this or whether it's

something else or you know and i hope i

can channel that into something else at

some point that

doesn't require every inch of your being

and

i know i'm like that so it's kind of

like yeah sure it might be for nothing

but it's i'm gonna

do it anyway like there doesn't need to

be reasoning behind the fact that this

is

how i am i have always been

i've always yeah i've always been like

this i've always been kind of like

i'm gonna make this happen like whether

that's kind of through like

coordinating all the babysitting jobs

that you got in one night and allocating

them out to your friends

and stuff or you know like taking

essentially like any

job ever that like that i could

then you know that's all that's what i'm

like so i kind of know that

where did that come from though i

i think probably a few things i know

that

everyone in my family is a very

hard worker and that is very

it's kind of almost like an like an

anxiety

to do well even though like my parents

were

not pushy at all i think people assume

you know especially if you go to

oxford or like whatever but the least

pushy people ever i think that actually

it all

i kind of was discussing this with my

sister the other day was like where does

it come from

it doesn't come from our parents like it

comes from them clearly because they had

it in themselves

but you know like they both my parents

had careers when i was growing up i

lived with

my mum just me my mum and we had a

tenant who lived in um my mom's house

and my mum was

working pretty much all the time

incredibly

like i respect her so much for it

because i also never grew up thinking

like oh it's weird for a

woman to have a career and have four

children and like whatever she just

you know she worked all the time and um

and she loved it she

loved it and she gave her like

everything to it and so i

i think i spent a lot of i spent a lot

of time

kind of in that situation knowing that

i also wanted to love what i do and i

think there

is this mislead like perception that you

know like if you love what you do you'll

never work a day in your life blah blah

blah

but i also think that there is this like

it's a flow state isn't it like you have

something that matches your

challenge and your skill level and you

get more fulfillment than you'll get

from anything

and i think i was so i used to say i

remember saying like

i i think it was like when i was like 15

16

and i would take like work experience

from anyone every single holiday

and every single school holiday and i

remember

my teachers saying that you should

probably choose one of the avenues and

then you can do like more within that or

something

and i remember just saying to them like

i'm so terrified that i'll be stuck in

something that i hate

and it was like a constant like and i

don't think it's necessarily good i

don't think it was necessarily healthy i

was constantly so terrified

that you know the same was for

university the same was for whatever

like

i didn't get into oxford the first time

i applied i i

i and i went again like i literally that

same day

i went online and i found out what i

could do for a year that would earn

myself some money to be able to not be

i guess studying that year and went to

um and applied for the ibm future scheme

which is the one they do for

gap year students that that literal same

day

and then applied again the next year and

like as in

i was i'm very like that it's

very set on kind of one thing and if

that thing then doesn't work

i either want to do it again like it's

really clear to me i either want to do

it again

or i'm like that wasn't right and then i

move on but i know that i'm

very straight out and very

like i will not stop until like yeah you

get it right

what's the uh actual the business and

the chaos in the segment

can is there one day in your business

career over the last couple of years

which was your worst day

um i mean or your toughest challenge

i think my toughest challenge in general

was

there was this stupid stupid time that

i'm constantly praised for

that was the worst decision i've ever

made in my life which was that i was

coming up to my university finals

i was launching a business to i think it

was a month before

my university finals yeah i was

launching a business beginning of

may the 7th may if i'm right um

and i started i finished my finals on

the 6th of june

now that meant that 40 000 words were

due and

five three-hour exams within the space

of two weeks

and i also wanted to launch my business

and i also wanted to

do well at university i'd been working

with that for three years

um but i'd persuaded people as well i'd

be persuaded people to spend money on

this launch i'd persuaded people to you

know so i was going to do it right

people were like you're amazing like

this is so great like how can you do

this

and i'm like you are like it's not wise

it's not smart like it's not like this

isn't a competition for how many boxes

you can take within a small space of

time

that is like a fast track towards

burnout and

either something going incredibly wrong

or whatever and i think that that you

know like as i've said work was always

a coping mechanism for me so it's always

kind of like well if when if we

have to do it now or we like run out of

money before launch and we're doing it

now and i don't care like i can

work x y and z and i actually have like

a whole like

chapter in a book where i'm essentially

talking about like that was the time

that i felt most validated in being a

hard worker

and i felt like because i was i was in

the library at 3am and i was also

on the phone with the suppliers at you

know 7 a.m the next morning

and all of x y and z and people could

see it and i was living it i was like

hustling the hustle and that was when i

was like wow

like this is it like i am the hard

worker

like with capital h w and like this is

me

and i think that that is

like that kind of like sums it all up in

the way that that was

a huge challenge also an incredibly

unwise challenge at the time

and yet why did that feel like the time

i was doing it right

so that's actually that's a lot of what

spurred on essentially why i was writing

the book because it was kind of like how

can that be

the epitome of hard work when that is

also the epitome

of not being productive like that's

like completely unproductive um and

not useful for anyone you're not gonna

be nice with the people you deal with at

the time

you have a higher chance of actually

like messing things up and all of that

and yet why was that the one time that i

felt like

truly validated for what i was doing and

you were broadcasting that

and i was broadcasting that and there'll

be people i'm sure who see me now who

are like

she you know did this and that and like

yeah sure i work really hard i

really do but there are some things that

it's kind of like i addressed that and

like as i said to you while i was

writing the book there were so many

things that i noticed i was like i'm the

problem here as well

i perpetuate this how can i criticize a

culture

of the hustle culture that i

benefit from at the same time how can i

do that

and i think that i think that that's

what made me

you know that's why i say that this book

was such like a soul-searching process

for me because i was like

you know what is that why is that like

is that because i need the validation

is that because we all need the

validation now because hard work has

become so

unobtainable because it has to be doing

this job that job

like everything in between also being

amazing at self-care also doing like x y

and z

and i think that that's when i was kind

of like okay this is a challenge

but it's not only a challenge it was a

silly thing to do so it's not even like

a

you know there are things you have to do

there are crises you have to deal with

and all of that that will

be a challenge and will also be

incredibly rewarding and all of that and

most of them are but i think there are

other things that you look at and you're

like

yep this was a challenge and it also

didn't have to happen let's not do that

again

as you guys know i'm a massive fan of

hill i've been consuming the products

for about four years now and you know

that i attribute

much of my health and fitness goals that

i've achieved over the last 12 months to

heal

more recently i've started having the

hot and savory

bags of fuel and as someone that really

loves to have the ready to drink cure

it's actually been really nice to find a

product that is a meal but still gives

me all of the protein

and the nutrients and the minerals and

the fibers that i need for my diet so

i'm now on the hot and savory journey

join me if you want to

my favorite flavor is the thai green

curry flavor

i like to add loads and loads and loads

loads of cake and pepper to it because i

really i'm from africa and i really like

spice

so give it a shot you mentioned burnout

yeah um

and i remember reading a quote in a in a

piece that you know an interview that

you did where you talked about

mental health generally and how you know

you'd reflected that maybe you weren't

representing mental health in the right

way i think you said um

you were giving advice but it didn't

apply to yourself in terms of like

talking and being open about it

i want to know long way back i've just

been digging through every two and a

half years

yeah i just wanted to get a flavor for

everything oh yeah no i appreciate

home it everything but talk to me about

your mental health and the journey

you've been on with your mental health

since you were you know 18.

um well as i've said i think probably

a one of the reasons that i think i

you know in that in that pose to give

context i guess i said that

i am one of the biggest advocates for

people talking about their mental health

we have mental

health days like within our the company

like

you know you can take days off and you

can literally just take a duba day and

it could be

you know because of your mental health

whatever it might be and i'm the biggest

advocate for that and talking about it

and everything

and then as soon as it came to me no

like that was

not it's not the same case like i'm not

going to talk about it i'm not going to

deal with it and it actually got to a

point that i was having

seizures essentially um from

something really horrible that i went to

that was through that was essentially

ended up giving me ptsd

that presented in seizures and obviously

i was having symptoms up to the point of

the seizures but i only took it

seriously when it was a physical symptom

like when it came to the point that i

was like okay

like i'm being hospitalized now like

this is not ideal

at all and that was the thing that made

me slow down and that was the thing that

maybe or not even slowed down i didn't

even think i necessarily hugely so down

after that but it was kind of like

okay this is real and this is just as

like if something can manifest so

physically that you're having a [ __ ]

seizure

then you probably need to take this more

seriously and that was you know like

that was that was tough that was

right before my third year at university

that that started and

um everything up until then like i've

been a i think i have this like really

toxic

mental health attitude within myself

that doesn't prioritize it that isn't

kind of

that kind of sees it as weakness even

though that's the last thing that i'd

see you know in any of my friends who

suffer from depression or anxiety or

like whatever it might be

and it's completely different it's like

we don't get the same treatment like

i'll give you no i'll understand that

and i'll see that and i won't do that

and i'm sure there are lots of people

who are the exact same

you're not being compassionate to

yourself exactly and i think that that's

another reason why i really needed to

like look inside myself and be able to

evaluate that and be able to look at

like why

like why is that the case like why do

you feel so

undeserving of the justification for

like

you know having bad mental health at one

time and i've been lucky that you know

apart from

this which was a result of specific

trauma

i've generally been you know i've had

generally good

mental health and i've you know been

able to

deal with like i guess you know like i

think a lot of the way that mental

health is presented is really

damaging in that you know people do i've

had friends who have kind of said like

oh yeah but

you know i don't want to take

meds from my depression or whatever and

everyone has different views on it but

it's kind of being like

well any other chemical imbalance in

your brain you would because you'd say

like hey i need this to offset this or i

need insulin to offset this or whatever

and yet it's like a it's a thing it's

like a

you know what's what's she called like

mrs trunchbull you know

from matilda that you like have in your

brain that's like you do not like get

this or like you do not like deserve to

have that compassion or whatever it

might be

so i think like i've had a and i think

i'm what's so strange is that i don't

know about you but i'm able to talk

about mental health really openly

and i literally had so i thought it was

really important for me to

um i think as a business owner i think

it's probably important for

all i mean i think it's important for

everyone but for business owners i think

it's important for everyone to get

therapy because you're not meant to go

through that much chaos

all the time like you're not meant to

have three messages a day that could

kill your business

and yet you do and you're like and then

you're like the next like 15 minutes

later you're like

so what's that like your fight you get

you get like programmed to

get up again like second nature and then

you never deal with things so i kind of

i kind of decided i was like i'm gonna

get like i'm just gonna have it once a

week and it's just gonna be literally

like an offload

and i sat in it for kind of like two

months and i was like

i'm like i haven't cried yet and i'm a

crier so i'm clearly talking

about my mental health as if i'm doing

an interview and if i'm like

you know just able to talk about it like

yeah like i think it's important and

like this is

and it's like this is everything that's

okay to talk about this is everything

that's not and i won't address that

and i think that that's something for me

to i guess to deal with

and i think that the important thing is

as an owner of a business that

has people within it and then you know

and as someone with a platform and all

of that

all of those things make it really

important for me to

treat mental health properly both for

myself and for other people

but i don't think i do but you are

setting a really remark you know

what you said there about being a

business owner and it's important for

you to get therapy one of the other

points that i think

of good that you'll be doing by doing

that is you're setting a precedence for

all of your employees

that even me as the boss you know and

that creates a safe space for other

people

in my business it was the same so we met

we made mental health therapy opt out

yeah i saw that yeah so like and it

meant that the men who were hiding in

the back that didn't wanted to be tough

guys whatever you know i was going and i

told the doctors the business

my fat co-founder to go as well and that

week my co-founder dom said he got um

something like 11 messages from men in

the business that had been suffering

from mental health but just had never

spoken about it

and he became like the de facto male

therapist in our company for that reason

what i wanted to go back to on is the

point you know you talked about

this build up that you had which

culminated in you being hospitalized

with your mental health

um i had i had a guest on the podcast a

couple a couple of weeks ago

and she was uh she's a kayaker and she

something

something changed in her life and it

meant and she wasn't listening to her

body

and ultimately she ended up getting

chronic fatigue syndrome where she went

from being a kayaker that could kayak

for two hours

to not being able to lift up her hands

and she said there were these warning

signs in my life that i just ignored

until my body went listen if you're not

gonna

listen to me then we're shutting down

and it sounded very similar to what you

were saying so my question is what are

those what were those warning signs that

you were in some respects

by the sounds of it ignoring yeah i

won't talk about specifically

from from that perspective i do think

it's important to talk about

in terms of burnout as a whole

so when we i think the same thing

applies to kind of like

the way that this kind of productivity

like

rat race comes across now is that

you essentially need to be working as

fast as you possibly can it's not

productivity at all

it's working i guess if you look at

productivity like the definition

is that you get the most amount done in

the least amount of time

but that has fine like that taken as one

and then that's multiplied so you're

getting the

most amount done in the least amount of

time so that you can do the

most amount in the least amount of time

again rather than being able to just

you know do that and move on and find

that's good like we should be you know

we should be efficient we should be

effective

all of these things are important but i

think that

you know it's also the equivalent of

expecting

someone like that or a marathon runner

ultra marathon runner to sprint for the

whole marathon like

it's ineffective they're not gonna win

they're also probably gonna get injured

you know there's nothing beneficial

about it and we see

it from a physical perspective and we

completely ignore it from

a mental perspective or from a work

perspective

and i think that that's why it's so

important to talk about especially you

and me

people who are essentially will be seen

in some way

as like what hard work looks like that

results in success

or whatever it might be the

acknowledgement

that working hard does not mean working

all the time

and like having it all does not mean

like doing it all

and all of these various different

things that actually are important to

look at

from ourselves as well because like as i

said like i realized that actually

probably i was perpetuating a lot more

than i meant to and that was why i then

ended up

needing to perpetuate things because you

know i constantly wanted to show people

that i was actually working hard

which actually all it gave off was this

is how what hard work looks like and

therefore

there's you know it's probably stopping

a whole generation of people who

actually want to do something but

see something you know i'm not that type

of person i actually don't get up in the

morning and want to read like some

disgustingly

boring like non-fiction book and like

but actually

being able to acknowledge that and find

some middle ground

and find some realization that it

doesn't all

like it's not going to be the same for

you as it is for someone else and the

same goes for hard work

um and i think for for me you know

i now and i think largely because of

having written this book

i now see when i'm lagging i now see

when i need a rest i now see

you know i'm able to construct a working

week that essentially you know is able

i'm able to

be ceo at both companies and i'm able to

do all my work and i'm able to do

my own work too that isn't just

responsive to other people's work

and then i think you know and i'm able

to

culminate that in a way that is i guess

a livable way of me working

and there have been times where it's not

that there's been times where it's you

know

like hell to leather and doing

everything possible but that's a needs

must amount of time that is not

representative of what hard work looks

like

and then being able to recognize that

within myself and say like that's okay

like you're not weak because you have to

sleep like you're not weak because you

have to

you know like sit back sometimes or your

creativity just isn't coming out

you're just like a human or not even

like even machines can't do that like if

you had a machine like working like it

would go into override

or if it was set on the wrong thing or

if it was you know like doing too many

things at once

it would go into override so like we

don't it's not even that we don't

realize we're humans we don't

realize like limits at all we just have

no boundaries yeah and i think that's

that's what's important there's been a

there's been a big shift

i think over the last i'd say two years

there's been a huge conversation around

burnout right

and it's gotten to the point i did a

post about the day but it's gotten to a

point where

it i actually feel bad talking about

working hard and i played around with

that idea because

um on one hand you can be deceitful in

the sense that you say like i

i work 24 hours a day and i never sleep

and on the other hand you can be really

deceitful and saying listen

uh hard work doesn't matter self-care

and like yeah yeah yeah

sit back and put on a face mask yeah

like i don't want to lie to you i still

work really hard but obviously there's

nuance and balance and sometimes i don't

have good days

yeah yeah but i don't know anyone that's

really successful that doesn't work hard

i don't know any athlete

100 percent i think what i even realized

that was after i kind of went through

all of this like self-discovery and

writing the think pieces and all of that

and then i sat down to write the

productivity method and i was like i

feel like

gordon ramsay telling someone he's like

an idiot sandwich like i literally feel

like i'm being

that harsh just because i'm telling you

that actually if you want to get that

done you've got to get it done

and like i think that's why the whole

reason i repositioned it rather than

you know it's not just because as soon

as you're that then you're

equally as harmful in the perpetuation

of like self-care culture

that now has these knee-jerk reactions

that's either like

it's like a cult and it's like this

wellness thing or it's like

a waste of time there's like a middle

ground like that is important for

everyone but it doesn't just need to be

kind of like you know like face masks

and everything it can be

it it has to be like part of all of it

so yeah

you might work till 3am from

6am every night for a month

i would argue that that's not that

possible beyond that point

like it might be and you might be an

incredibly hard worker and you know like

and

i perceive myself to be but you

still at the end of it all you still

need rest and yes you're completely

right there's no

glory and no kind of benefit in also

perpetuating the completely the other

side you know

sometimes self-care is the most

productive thing you can do but also

sometimes productivity is an act of

self-care like

you need to it's self-care to look at

that project that you've been putting

off for

three weeks for the 50th time and

actually get it done that's self-care

like that isn't it doesn't have to be

you know this that or the other it

doesn't need to be compartmentalized

into like

you know some forms of work or self-care

some forms of self-care are

like what you know like it goes both

ways and i think that

that's what's important i think it's

rather than choosing one or the other

it's just real

it's like being realistic and being you

know you don't always need to be like

disarmingly like i've had a bad day

today because i also feel in the same

way like i can't be asked to do that the

whole time like

i don't like when i've had a bad day i

don't instantly think like ah i will get

the reward from being vulnerable by

sharing this on social media like that's

not my instant reaction

but at the same time there is an

importance and i do think that

people like us also have a duty to be

able to share

both sides even if it's that being like

you know like i was up till

11 last night writing a crisis plan for

something like you know like you

you constantly have these things and

it's like

and then like so there's just so many

different

types of i guess there are so many

different angles to it

and as long as there's kind of a more

realistic thing as long as you don't

feel weak to say

that you sleep or whatever and you also

don't feel

like you're being like really mean to

say like you have to work hard to do

well

both of those things are wrong so like

there must be a middle ground

and that the the left side you speak you

speak so i'm just calling it the left

just because it was the left

i raised my left hand when i described

it i'm not saying it's the left

but it is it's like

um i've always considered myself to be

more left than i am anything else but um

i felt somewhat alienated by this kind

of lack of personal responsibility blame

someone else um pessimism culture that's

emerging from that side and i in some

respects it's someone that's been a

social media for about

almost 10 years i understand the

algorithms will create echo chambers and

they'll reinforce

things and you'll and they're actually

polarizing us to be the right and more

on the right and the left

on the left and my point here is that um

i like to be a bit more nuanced so i

don't think binary solutions to complex

um

problems ever make sense left you know

rich poor black white

um left right whatever it is and i post

posted something about um personal

responsibility

and being grateful and things you can do

if you're feeling bad

and there was a lot of people that said

i was and i actually take this to

compliment they said i was toxic

positive and there's this whole new

this whole phrase not being too positive

being so positive that it makes people

feel bad

and i don't give a [ __ ] right like if we

also think we have toxic things within

ourselves and that's like it's toxic

but also like you can tell me i'm

toxically positive and i like

if so for example like i might be the

same in that i know that you know

i'm not i would consider myself probably

like a realist like i wouldn't consider

myself like a

constant optimist but i also know that

like

my coping mechanism for anything going

wrong is to make something else go right

so if that needs me to work hard if that

needs me to push

completely into work for 40 days and 40

nights but like i'll do it

but i think that you know i think

cor you know being able to label

something as something doesn't

necessarily

mean that it's bad i think sure if

someone thinks that toxic

positivity then fine a

i don't think that necessarily needs to

be kind of you know like

nothing is going to be nuanced enough on

social media for you to understand

unless it's like a 2000 word

think piece but i also think that like

these things exist like we all know

some of these like i know that i have

bad coping mechanisms in some way i know

that

i don't need anyone else to tell me or

if they do like it's fine but it doesn't

like there's no benefit here like you're

still gonna think that way and therefore

if you're sharing more of your thoughts

it's still gonna be like that

you might be toxically positive but it's

that's you know that's

you and that's what you're also gonna

say and like that would also be

you would also be lying to then say okay

well i'm gonna make this more realist

and so i'm gonna do x y and z and i'm

gonna put that out there

and then there are going to be more

people who say the other side so it's

like you can either spend your life like

swinging back and forth between like

what people perceive to be right and

you're never going to get everyone

because

obviously as you say it's completely

polarized but or you can

it kind of be like yeah you might not

like this i just my whole stance is like

i've read a lot of stuff about

psychology studied psychology for a

little while

i i've had my life experience and if you

follow me you're here to get that stuff

and you don't have to agree you don't

even have to like it and there's loads

of other and i think i just really

destroyer today

there's loads of places you can get like

fluffy you know face masks so the answer

to everything stuff it's just not here

because of my lived experience and i

understand i have a you know a bias

because i'm an individual that's had an

individual experience when i was

stalking you online grace i found it

really hard to find a boyfriend

i was i was looking a lot like i was

like i was

i found like i was like [ __ ] we'll

try google images google images

like these are just friends and then i

was like yeah i mean i don't think

anyone will find

a boyfriend probably until i'm maybe

married with kids but i mean as in

there's not good there won't be one

yeah yeah i'm not looking for it's not

there's a boyfriend there because i read

some stuff about you meeting this guy

when you're like 15 and then you oh no

no

there's not a boyfriend there oh there's

not a boyfriend there's not a boyfriend

but there's never going to be a boy from

yeah being young being

successful being a woman i know where

this is going yeah

so maybe i don't have to ask the

question i'm just saying like i asked

this question a lot of guests because

probably because i've struggled myself

right so being young you're a successful

woman in business

a lot of guys quite just going to be

honest would be quite intimidated

right you don't have to answer that but

they would i'm one of them i'll tell you

i'm not speaking for myself i'm speaking

from some insecure friends that i have

that would feel intimidated by their

their their partner who is a woman being

successful that's just

some men are insecure enough to find

that emasculating yeah

talk to me about the difficulties of

having

romantic relationships when you are

young

you are successful you are a woman um

i'd say it's not necessarily what i'm

concentrated on first and foremost and

just just

from like you know i want to do

lots of things before i concentrate on

that um i also think that

one of the things that i i guess i found

because like what you're saying is

true um but i think what i find

comforting in that is also the fact that

like i don't

want to be with someone who finds that

masculinity so i think it's quite a good

um it's quite a good kind of whittle

down yeah because

yeah if you find it emasculated like

that you don't

any other thing that people might not

like about someone you don't want to be

with someone who doesn't

you know like my work is the biggest

part of

me and that's really sad it's not but

like it's a huge part of my life and

it will be and i would never want to be

with someone who thought that was any

sort of like great um and so

it doesn't necessarily i mean maybe it

will trouble me down the line

but currently it's kind of like yes i

completely agree

i think people do find it intimidating

and emasculating

i also think that that's kind of you

know as i say

that doesn't necessarily change anything

because it's actually not you know i

would have no interest in being with

someone who

can be emasculated by that so and at

this point in your life do you foresee

in the future at some point you wanting

to be with a partner

yes yeah yeah i mean i think i think

naturally i think a lot a lot of people

talk i'd say probably the large yeah

yeah and i think that it's important

especially with women not to presume

because i've made that mistake you know

yeah no i mean i've i you know i

couldn't

have like one friend who i think of her

i know she she knows that she doesn't

want to

like ever have like a life partner like

she doesn't it doesn't make sense to her

which i think is completely

i i think makes sense you know like but

i think that absolutely at some point

and um but i'm in no rush i mean i'm

very young

when that day comes yes um what are the

the difficulties you see in the current

way that you live your life

and forming a relationship with whoever

this person this lucky person might be

um i say the first problem is probably

going to be

closet space

i think no i think in general

why is grace difficult today and why

probably yes you should probably ask a

few people um

no i mean i think that i'm an incredibly

loving person

and i'm incredibly

dedicated to the people i love and

that currently is filled by amazing

friends

and family and people i'm lucky to have

in my life

and i think that that will you know

at some point as i say like that will

absolutely hopefully

be filled by you know that type of

position but i

i think that the difficulties would

probably just

you know be about around understanding

that work is as important as it is to me

and i think that you know like i've had

relationships in the past and that is

you know like that

does it does become a problem and i also

think that

you know then you can't necessarily

combat that by having someone who's the

same otherwise you're

never gonna see each other like i think

i probably you know would want someone

who has the same values in that way

but there has to be like a kind of

middle ground or there has to be then

you know some sort of way in which you

will see each other once every 15 years

or something

um but no i think i think the troubles

will be

around work and they won't be around

emasculation because as i say that

wouldn't be

you know then there's no space for that

um but i think you know in the same way

as i'm able to be

a great friend and family member and

you know all of that now it's

to me it's an extension of that to me it

won't be you know any different i know

in my qualities you know i probably

probably the part of the reason why

that's not what i want now is because i

also know that i

care a lot about that so you know if i

am in that situation i will give a lot

to that and currently i don't have a lot

to give to that

so you know i think it's a

prioritization for me and currently

that's

not a priority yeah how has running

business

and the way that people have treated you

in business especially being a young

entrepreneur i reflect on this in my own

life

changed you as a

friend as a person you know your

patience your snappiness

your tolerance i think i'm a lot more

i think there's a part of it that's

actually quite interesting that i've

been thinking more about recently where

if you're in business and you call the

shots how does that develop in

friendship

so i i've actually talked about that

recently i don't think i've

you know i've had to grow in confidence

to say especially to

for example men who have far more

experience than me and are technically

you know working for me like there's

been a point where it's kind of like

can i say like that this is not right or

like whatever

and i've developed that but i think you

know i think i've now developed that

well and i don't think i have a problem

with that now

and therefore i think that you know

there's going to be part of that where

you then like how does that switch off

automatically the second you step

through

your door and you're with your family or

your friends or your housemates or

whatever

and i think that that's probably

something that i'll

you know i'm very grateful that i think

someone once

asked me like how do you stay like

grounded and down to earth and i think

that

that i don't go for the types of friends

that

obviously my friends like bring me up

and they're my biggest fans but

there is no smoke being blown anywhere

they will be the first person

to also say you know and that's what i

value like i don't want to be

in a superior position in friendship in

family relations in whatever it is i

will never be with the friends and

family that i have and i think that

that's so important

and i think that that can absolutely

affect people

and i think that you know i've seen

people then surround themselves only

with people in their position or only

with whatever

and i think that you know one of the

most valuable things i have is that a

lot of my friends are

in entry-level jobs and i'm able to see

from their point of view what's the most

frustrating thing about their workplace

and not feeling valued or whatever

and i'm allowed i can make sure that i

try

like my best to make sure that never

happens for people within mine and i

think that so you can get those you know

you get so many benefits from having

different people around you

primarily like no one is kind of

there yeah as we say what about when the

bill comes

oh well first of all i'll be pleased to

hear that my friends like to go to a

very cheap place okay

which i also like i'm i i love a you

know

nice dinner and a nice like whatever but

you will not i mean

you you'll find me buying a bottle in

the club if it's one of my friend's

birthdays or like whatever you know like

i

love treating my friends i love taking

them on holiday like i love you know