quick one the D of CEO live my live show

my live Reincarnation of this podcast is

coming on tour and it's coming to a city

near you there's a link in the

description below put your email address

in and I will email you when tickets go

on sale can't wait to see you you know

when you have that kind of experience

early you grow up very fast and you know

what's important and you prioritize so

another deep question all these deep

questions yeah okay so did you feel like

a bit of a fraud no no I totally thought

I knew what I was doing people don't do

that they when you're 20 people came

back Madonna and um Thurman and

[Music]

Oprah Marcia Kilgore I can't actually

believe what you're about to hear I

can't actually believe that one human

being could have achieved that many

successful business exits back toback

she's built companies like soap and

Glory like Bliss Beauty which he's

building at the moment and these

companies have sold for tens and

hundreds of millions they've made

hundreds of millions in annual revenue

and the remarkable thing is she's not

just done it once she's not just done it

twice not three times not four times

she's done it five times and I sat here

with her trying to figure out why her

what was it about Marcia that made her

achieve such tremendous things in her

life and I think we finally got there I

think we finally found the answer and is

it something that you can replicate a

lot of it is and I think that's what

makes this podcast today so interesting

so without further Ado I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the dire of a CEO I

hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to

yourself there is so much that makes you

unique so much and sometimes I think and

I think I'm guilty of this to some

degree too we don't always

see ourselves as being unique because

we're inside of our minds and we're you

know we're behaving in the way that

feels natural to us but when I look at

your your story and the decisions you've

made since you were very very young it's

so clear to me that there's something so

different about many things that are so

different about you and I want to kind

of get to the root of that what is the

foundation of that difference what was

it what was The Cauldron the experience

that created the person you went on to

become for the following you know wow

that's starting with a very very deep

question isn't it it is yeah yeah I mean

I think that um I grew up in a a very

small town um and a and a small city in

Canada that time was you know relatively

simple and I always had a hunger to

learn more and read more and find out

more and kind of knew that I didn't

really fit in in a small city um so very

early on I kind of started to think well

what can I do and how can I get out of

here but I didn't have much guidance so

my father died early and my mom was not

necessarily someone who would help me

you know look at universities for

instance or say hey you should really

your grades are really great why don't

you study and do this or that CU she had

never done it herself so she um no one

really in my family guided me and at

that point there weren't really

University counselors or anyone doing

that job in in high schools at least in

in Canada so I think for me uh I

realized quite early probably when I was

a teenager that I just needed more

stimulation and I needed more than what

was there just to you know feel

fulfilled and and keep my curiosity

going those teenage years you have a lot

of experiences and apparently what

happens during your teenage years

because your brain is forming in a very

different way and it's starting to sort

of solidify right um those kinds of

experience really stick with you through

your whole life and I remember having

several part-time jobs when I was a

teenager um all you know simultaneously

while going to high school and never

really finding a job where I thought

that the person in charge of the

business was doing it well so I worked

at a gym for instance and I always

thought they could do it so much better

if they were just doing this that and

the other thing I taught aerobics

classes and I thought aerobics was so

boring the way it was done and tried to

do it you know in a very different way

so it was more fun for the people who

came and just always trying to improve

the experience because I was in quite a

mediocre setting lovely setting but you

know very average very uh you know

middle Canada um and so that was

probably a bit of the a bit of the

stimulation on that point though that

that sort of philosophy or even the

thought that you could make something

better that's that's a point of

difference a lot of people don't have

where did where did that come from in

you so early that if something isn't

good enough that you had the power

within yourself to do something about it

because I think most people will go

through life just accepting things as

they are that would be just terribly

depressing wouldn't it I guess if you

can conect conect the dots and see your

way to something that might be more

elevating for your mind and then for

others or make something a little bit

more fun um you can go deep into the

childhood stuff right uh and and just

think about I mean there were situations

in my childhood and it happens to a lot

of people so I'm might you know by no

means unique in this respect but where

for instance and this would probably be

more girls than boys but at some point

in every girl's existence in school you

become the unpopular one how you feel

maybe so much an outsider when suddenly

you're out and how painful that can be I

think probably in my experience when I

was suddenly not cool

anymore probably was really painful for

me because I also feel things quite

acutely so trying also to think well if

other people feel left out how can you

make them feel like they're more a part

of something and so most of the

businesses that I create are are very

Democratic um Bliss even which was my

spa that I created in in New York I mean

we had everybody coming in from like mad

and um Thurman and Oprah right but then

the 12-year-old kids who had chronic

acne and you know their moms would bring

them in to have facials we treated

everybody exactly the same way um I

think one of my favorite memories from

that was when I was actually giving a

facial to one of these 12-year-old kids

that her mom had brought her from Boston

and um Thurman was in the locker room at

the same time and helped her open her

locker so she comes into my treatment

room and goes oh my Thurman just helped

me unlock my Locker it was so cute

because you know everybody was the same

and that makes me feel great I think

probably some of that experience as a

child not feeling equal being left out

maybe a little bit we we after my father

passed away we were not necessarily poor

or you know but not certainly not

comfortable in any way shape or form um

at one point we moved back to a small

town and we kind of lived on the wrong

side of the tracks if there was a wrong

side of the tracks we lived on the wrong

side of the tracks in this very small

town where my mother's family was from

so you kind of felt like you weren't

quite as good as everyone else but that

wasn't fair and so very likely the idea

of this democratization of the good

stuff is probably comes from that but

I'm sure you could grab any therapist

anywhere and they would give you a

different version of it the passing of

your father seems to be quite a PO point

you you seem to refer to it as like

before and after how life was somewhat

different and um after your father

passed away

um the requirement for you to develop

like a real sense of Independence seems

to sort of really come through I think I

read that you got you had three

part-time jobs at one point yeah yeah

well I had to I mean my mother was a

secretary so she didn't have a you know

huge income I at the time I was probably

11 right so I didn't ask her hey do we

have any money in the bank you don't

really ask those kinds of questions

after the the death of uh of your parent

um but I assumed just from the way that

my mother you know acted that we weren't

exactly stable or you know financially

well off so being I think the youngest

but yet potentially the most responsible

of the three um sisters I kind of felt

like I had to help and maybe help in

order for her to feel better herself

have you ever watched Jim Carrey he he

actually talks about I mean of course

you've watched Jim Carrey but there's an

interview that he gives where he talks

about his mother actually suffered from

tremendous depression and he learned to

be funny because he wanted her to laugh

and he wanted to see her feel good and I

know there is something about okay I'm

going to have a paper wrote and I'm

going to you know be a personal trainer

or teach aerobics and I'm going to work

as a waitress even though I'm not

necessarily old enough to serve alcohol

in this

establishment whatever it was I would

just do it because I want I wanted to to

take the stress off of her I didn't want

her to think if I wanted you know a car

or whatever it was that she was going to

have to pay for it because I knew it was

already quite stressful for her to just

pay the rent so I think you know you

just do whatever is expected of you and

and was fine right it's great gives it's

a skill it's like a gift in a way you

can look at it and just think well I

developed that skill from 10,000 hours a

practice maybe over a year or two and uh

it was never hard for me to work again

you mentioned the gym though

personal training oh yeah so when I

moved to New York it's a long story but

I then moved to New York when I was 18

after um my 12th grade and I got

accepted to Columbia University and I

was supposed to go but I didn't have any

money and my sister who lived in New

York said I'll help you out with your

tuition but then she had a little snafu

with her income that year it was like a

tax thing or whatever you know again no

big deal and so I was in New York and I

had no no money to go to university and

it was too late because I was Canadian

to get a foreign student loan so I

decided to use the only skill that I had

when I was and I know you can tell this

about me but I was a

bodybuilder I know it's kind of hard to

see now but I was I was like a

middleweight bodyb building Champion

when I was a teenager you know between

the three part-time jobs I would then go

to the gym at night and you know where

did that come from because that's that

is a that takes a degree of dare I say

it dedication to say the least yeah it

was it was random I think it was again

my sister started dating this guy whose

brother owned a bodybuilding gym and he

said to me hey you should come down to

the gym because I was a long-distance

Runner and you know just to kind of let

off steam I think I just love to always

go running and so he said oh you should

come down Miss Canada at the time like

Miss Canada lightweight or featherweight

or whatever she she worked out there and

so she put me through the paces and gave

me a routine and all this kind of stuff

and I just went because it was something

do but even then though a lot of people

go to the gym they train whatever two

days three days a week for you to have

gone from just walking in the door to

becoming a like a junior bodybuilding

Champion or something you know I suppose

again if you like had a therapist come

in and say oh why would you do that it

probably to give some kind of semblance

control and the ability to achieve

something you know to my life which at

the time I'm a teenager in a high school

in the Melissa

schatan school was not so hard for me

yeah so what else am I going to do sense

of like purpose I guess and yeah and and

to have that discipline you also have

control right so if you can control your

body then you could probably control

other things and if you can achieve

things with seeing how far you can take

it then you know it just adds to I guess

the the challenge you like a bit of a

challenge I do I love challenge I also

really love working out and I'm I'm I

would go to the gym every single day and

I I I you know what it was I had um I

sat here with a entrepreneur and she um

is very well known she's got millions of

followers online for B for basically

being a bodybuilder she describes

herself as a bodybuilder she doesn't you

know she's um very lean bodybuilder

let's say but um and she told me that

when she was in school she was outcasted

a little bit and she would eat her like

lunch in the the toilets her name's

Chrissy cheller um and her go her going

to the gym was in some respects an

escape from all of that it was like her

way of yeah I think it gave her Control

building herself back just yeah if you

think about physically what's happening

right she's building herself back up

yeah yeah and when you start talking

about sort of being excluded from the

the cool kids and stuff and then that

your bodybuilding became a big sort of

you know feature in your life at that

age I wondered if there was a link or um

because it is is an extreme thing it's

requires a level of persistence and a

and an okayness with being

uncomfortable physically uncomfortable

that you know what the gym was also full

of adults and I think I was a young

adult so I probably had more of a

mindset of an adult early I'm not I'm

not like the most intelligent human

being on you know on the Earth but I'm

probably slightly more intellectual than

most of the people that I was in school

with so I found my friends in a an

environment where there were people

working out and being healthy and just

older and so I think that probably had

something to do with it too you had

people to talk to there that you could

kind of connect to versus the teenagers

who maybe were going through their

teenage things I'd say also and I've had

this conversation with you know if

you've experienced a death in your

family early or if you've had a parent

or a sibling who's uh you know

chronically ill or handicapped you see

life in a very different way right so if

your father dies when you're 11 and

you're in a high school with a group of

girls and they're all very catty and you

just think really you're not going there

is not interesting to be part of that

kind of crowd you don't want to talk

about those kinds of things they're not

important and you know it because you've

been through something profound very

early on so it's hard to connect to

people who haven't like you know when

you have that kind of experience early

you grow up very fast and you know

what's important and you prioritize so

it's hard to find anyone to relate to if

you have a bunch of teenagers who

haven't right are you saying that you

didn't fit in you didn't think fitted

into that I I don't have any friends

from high school do you yeah okay so did

you fit in no yeah so yeah it probably

didn't fit in I mean didn't feel like an

outcast in any way shape or form but I

had not much to talk to them about right

what they were what they wanted to talk

about at that time just wasn't that

interesting to me so whether or not I

was fitting in or not I just didn't have

the same interests I guess um you know

as as the other kids who were maybe able

to grow up at a normal

Pace because of you know their normal

existence so take me back then so you

you get the place at Colombia yeah I got

a place at Columbia and then it didn't

work out that year and I thought oh

maybe I'll save up and I'll go next year

but I have to here I am in New York I

have $300 right and my mom for I was the

third of three girls and the two uh

older ones were a bit of a handful right

so she gave me for my grade 12

graduation present like a backpack that

was also suitcase and I was I was

actually the really disciplined helpful

one but I think she had just had it like

by then she'd been through the death of

my dad and then my my older sister who

had moved away quite early and then my

middle sister who you know was um I

wouldn't say complicated but she'd been

in a couple of car accidents like it was

exhausting for my mother so by the time

I was done High School I think she was

just like see

you and I don't blame her right single

mom three girls you must be like up to

here so she gave me this back and I

moved and I actually moved in with my

sister who was living in New York and um

and I needed to work because I had to

you know it was like well here I am I'm

not going back to

Saskatchewan and so I had to figure out

what to do and the only skill I had at

the time was like the body and so I got

a a gym membership at this place called

Better Bodies which was on 19th Street

between 5ifth and 6th and and it was the

place where kind of everybody who was

anybody you know back then like

bodybuilding had started to kind of be a

thing you know everybody was talking

about Arnold I think Pumping Iron had

kind of maybe just come out I this was

way before Arnold was a governor and um

and so I went to the gym and John CLA V

vanam worked out there and his wife

gladus Portuguese who was also this

famous bodybuilder and then all the kind

of cool film directors and fashion

designers what everybody went to this

gym however they were quite new to it I

had been like bodybuilding by then for

three years or four years maybe even and

so I looked great right and so did

jeanclaude and so did glattus the rest

of them not yet so I would have people

come to me and I'm 18 right and say Hey

I want to you know I want to look like

you because I wasn't really bulky I

looked like an Olympic Athlete and so

they wanted how I looked yeah yeah and

so I charged them $5 or $20 an hour and

do personal training which you know back

then for an 18-year-old it was a CU

minimum wage was probably

350 so I thought oh this is amazing and

so I became a personal trainer to you

know a lot of kind of celebs and they

would then send me to their friend and

refer me to this person or that person

and so it started out that way but I

kind of realized working in the gym for

15 bucks an hour was not going to pay my

rent and or anything else and probably

was not that sustainable over the long

term and I had no business skills as

such but I knew what good good service

was like cuz with common sense you know

how you want to be treated and you know

how you would want to show up and how

you want to treat your customer and how

you try to make sure that they enjoy

their experience so that they have you

back now personal training is one of

those things where most people who need

a personal trainer hate exercise

otherwise you wouldn't really need a

personal trainer so there was a lot of

thought that went into like the I would

I guess you talk about it now as like a

loyalty mechanic oh yeah yeah like loyal

yeah how can I get them to make sure

they don't cancel right because they

hate this otherwise I wouldn't be coming

yeah I have to make sure that this whole

experience they just looking forward to

it so that every you know Tuesday and

Thursday or whatever I'm showing up and

making my 40 bucks otherwise I wouldn't

be able to pay my rent um so I think the

early seeds of how do you get someone to

come back and and how do you give

service that so above and and beyond

that there's nobody else who will try

this hard it was planted what did you

learn about loyalty and customer

attention you got to always be pleasant

right I mean you have to be patient you

have to be totally absolutely focused on

your customer right so it was about them

it was not about me and I think there

are a lot of people who slip into friend

mode right or start to kind of talk

about their problems it's like no one is

paying you to listen to your problems so

whether you are a personal trainer or

giving a facial or waxing somebody's

legs or or whatever it is nobody wants

to hear about your stuff that's not why

they're paying right you're there to

focus on them and no one gets enough

attention maybe some people get enough

attention but most people don't get

enough attention they don't have someone

who really listens to them right all

rushing around all the time so even to

just be there doing whatever it is

you're doing taking them through their

Paces running them up flights of stairs

I mean I took people jogging right

around Manhattan wow nine times a day I

was fit you went on to start Bliss yes

so tell me from running around Manhattan

nine times a day running upstairs and

what in the summer especially my skin

got quite bad and it had never been

great you know through my teenage years

everybody has a little bit of you know

acne etc etc but mine I'd never quite

solved it and i' bought a lot of

products to try and solve it and I

actually personally trained somebody who

worked at one of the hot you know

skincare brands at the time he gave me

everything and nothing really worked um

um and so I thought one summer in the

summer when you're a personal trainer in

New York all of your clients generally

will go to The Hamptons and so for me

that was like two months without income

right no one pays you when they're not

working out so I thought I can either go

to The Hamptons and be captive in

somebody's house because you then become

kind of like people would drag you to

the beach and say oh here's my personal

train and you just it was not a good

Dynamic for somebody like me who does

not it's freedom and I want freedom yeah

so I decided I found this skin care uh

it was it was like a school and I

decided to take this crash course in how

to you know fix your own skin and it was

actually how to do facials but I was

taking it for myself and then I realized

I really loved it and then I convinced

my very trusting and I am so grateful to

them but personal training clients these

were you know some a names and they let

me name drop they they let me practice

on them name like at the time

oh yeah I've had yeah yeah yeah yeah but

when I very very early on it was more

like Paul Simon and Carrie fiser so I

mean everybody everybody was anybody

kind of came in and and let me do their

face and it was a real it was like a

real gift to be trusted with people who

relied on their faces for their

work early stage your own location in

manhatt well it started with people

coming to my to my apartment oh okay

yeah so I would personally train people

by running all over Manhattan during the

day and then at night I because my

sister had some connections with the

modeling agent uh modeling industry

let's just say she had some um Bookers

who had some other models who had

terrible skin right and so they would

send these models to me because I was

known I guess I mean I didn't even have

a reputation for knowing what I was

doing but and they would come to my

apartment in the East Village and

literally lie on the floor did you feel

like a bit a bit of of a fraud in those

early days when you were like no no I

totally thought I knew what I was doing

okay yeah because I have worked so hard

right so I knew the steps of a facial

and I had never had a facial somewhere

where it was any different than what I

was doing and I knew that I was more you

know where a normal facial would take an

hour I would spend two and a half on

somebody so I knew that if I didn't

necessarily have the best technique I

was going to try harder sure and so I'd

make up for it that way people came back

and then they sent me all their friends

and then they sent me all their friends

and then suddenly you know it was like a

social club you couldn't get people out

of the house so I'd have to get up at

5:00 a.m. to go do a personal training

session with somebody someone would have

come over for a facial at 8:00 at night

the night before I finished them at

10:30 and then they'd want to chat and

it was like I got to get an office

because I got to get these people out of

here we can't cuz you're kind of stuck

in your apartment and it's hard to then

get the client to then go when they're

in your house there seems to be a theme

emerging here which is I mean you've

only just told me about two kind of

professional Pursuits the personal

training and now the the the facial

business as it started um but you're re

you seem as some as to be someone that's

really remarkable at customer experience

because the fact that you can't get them

out your house um and that your you know

these personal training clients are you

know letting me do yeah letting me

experiment on them with wax and things

like that that's like a really

underrated thing I mean what we're

talking about there is fundamentally

like sales sales I guess and Trust yeah

yeah which I think is part of sales

right like trust is a super important

part of being a you know and you and

sales you know if you're selling it

sounds bad I know doesn't it yeah

because I I mean I hate the idea of

sales but I love selling yeah but I

couldn't sell something if I didn't

think it was great right don't ask me to

sell something I don't love because I

can't do it but if I love something I

could sell it to anybody so I guess it's

more about aligning your like moral

conviction with whatever it is that you

are then selling do you do you consider

yourself a

salesperson well would I say I'm a

salesperson that's a really hard so

without the stigma yeah let's remove the

stigma well everything is sales right

exactly yeah you just have to be look

you got to be pleasant right unless

you're some kind of Genius that people

need to have around the world gets to

choose

who they're interacting with and so if

you want in in any area of your life

right if you want to have like great

team members in your office you better

be pleasant to be around or they're not

they're not going to stay if you want to

you know meet with an editor or a

journalist or who are they going to

write about probably the people hey yes

everybody's got an interesting story but

those who they like are probably going

to get a little further than those who

are [ __ ] right interesting yeah do

you consider yourself a

salesperson yeah yeah yeah but without

you I have the same allergic reaction to

the term where I'm like forcing because

we're not we're not forcing things upon

people that we don't believe in no

you're helping them find what they

probably would have bought but find the

right one yeah CS is persuasion it's

body language it's communication it's

the way you know the passion you have

for what you was talking about and and

it's delivering information in a way

that helps somebody make a choice

without feeling stressed right because

generally I think if you if you are

trying to get someone to try something

right but you're pushing it in the wrong

way that isn't aligning with what they

need to hear about it then that is a

failed sale yeah yes because actually

you should be listening and if they

don't think you're objective right and

this is one of the things that I think

has been most successful with my longest

standing clients from my previous

company was they knew that I would come

there and I would tell them when our

work was bad yeah so I would say don't

do this it's a waste it's going to waste

your money yes but these things here I

actually think are going to work really

well so the minute I would say but these

things here they'd go yes yeah because

they felt I

was trust right exactly yeah which is

sort of number one isn't it it's like

worse for us better for you yeah yeah

and if people feel like you're aligned

with them doing better which is what you

always should be anyway because that's

just listening to the customer and

giving I mean this so basic right is

back to the basics of you listen to them

and you give them what they're asking

for and that's sales actually so if you

they'll tell you any customer will tell

you what they want the customers always

know what they want though no no

definitely not right somebody said to me

and and they weren't talking about

customers they were talking about buyers

at department stores so the people who

are employed by department stores to

purchase the merchandise that then get

sold onto customers and he said buyers

department store buyers are experts at

yesterday right and to some extent it's

true they look at their data from you

know before and so of course if you look

at the world the percentage of uh people

who are Visionary enough to think about

something new that people might want

it's probably quite a small percentage

and all the rest of the people think in

a different way and you know provide a

lot of value to the world in different

ways but there are select few I suppose

who think of the new stuff and like

that's our job and then of course you

have to get people to come with you

which is difficult sometimes they don't

necessarily see it so you've got to

figure out how to describe to them

whether that's by pictures or words or

however else that's the sales part right

yeah I suppose so it's also a lot of

psychology I mean there's so many

barriers right there I mean have you

ever I mean do you read behavioral

economics behavioral economics um yes

I've read like the psychology of money

which I think is pretty much behavioral

economics and then i' I did a course on

psychology and uh I've most of my books

in there are psychology books but

there's so many fascinating books like

by Dan arieli or Richard tlor or Daniel

conman

and they they won you know Nobel prizes

for the behavioral economics which is

the opposite kind of of economics and

the theories of Economics don't include

human beings and their behavior and

their emotions so behavioral economics

is all about how the emotions that we

have interact with uh you know with

economics to create different U outcomes

from buying decisions that would

normally

be expected people will rationalize

things BAS B on what they've done before

yeah right so this mental framework

around old things so if you're trying to

create something new very often you have

to relate it to something existing and

people can more easily understand what

you're talking about because you can say

oh it's like this yeah but da d da d da

but very often it's hard for people if

they don't have a mental framework or a

mental model of how something already

works yeah you come in with something

really radical and disruptive they don't

know where to place it no and so it it's

really so much easier like with

Pewdiepie right we're a buyer Club in

England apparently people don't know

what a buyer Club is in America

everybody knows what a Buyers Club is

right because there's uh Sam's Club and

there's uh Costco which isn't the same

uh in England as it is in America Costco

in America has like the highest

household

income per customer yeah because people

just pull up in their Range Rover and

buy you know they sell diamonds at

Costco right oh but it's always a deal

so beauty pie right is kind of like

Costco but for luxury cosmetics and

skincare and wellness products and so we

Source from all these fantastic labs and

we get the highest quality stuff and

then people can buy it if you're a

member of the club you buy it cheaper

than wholesale but people in England

don't know the concept so you have to

think well it's kind of like Netflix

right but but then you have to actually

pay for your product so it's not really

like Netflix so it's kind of like you

know you have to you're always doing

this mental model so that people can

understand it really EAS understanding

by comparison yeah yeah yeah so you with

bliss you start this business you move

into your own location and then talk to

talk to me about the the experience of

cuz that was your first real kind of

like business business employees yes how

was that and scaling that business until

the point when it was it was acquired

for yeah yeah so I mean it was a

fantastic experience we started quite

small I had a tiny place called let's

face it before I had Bliss and I had

probably five employees three rooms so

we had a manicurist we had a

receptionist we had a couple of other

facialists on certain shifts we'd have a

massage therapist come in somebody did

the laundry that wasn't me that was you

know I used to have to take the laundry

out on Avenue B I would have to like

carry these huge bags of laundry from

the facials to a Avenue a and like do

the laundry at night which was also

really crazy if you think back you could

never do this if you were older this is

definitely get a 19 20 year-olds gig to

be working all day and then going doing

laundry on Avenue a in 7th Street in you

know all night to get the towels done

but um yeah I opened let's face it first

and had you know probably five six seven

employees and it was great because it

was small enough for me to handle had

like I had no experience with employees

so just understanding the operations of

a business and scheduling and I mean I

really rate doing it versus learning

about it and of course I never learned

about it so I never learned how to go

structure a business I never ended up in

business school um I just did it and

then I saw the patterns along the way of

what goes wrong when you do this or what

you should look out for and and

especially a lot of patterns with people

I think that you know being able to

recognize patterns is a part of either

an emotional intelligence or just some

it's a type of intelligence that's been

very helpful and the older you get the

faster you recognize the patterns

because you've just been around for

longer and you can see also I'm sure

you've seen this types of people yeah

yeah yeah so you know that type of

person and you kind of can almost sus

people out after you've spent 10 minutes

with them you kind of know what to

expect or it's kind of what you're

describing earli but like understanding

something by comparison so I have the

same thing now in business where you and

you Des we talking about there as like

you've done more experiments when you

get older so yeah you can kind of

predict the outcome right now that type

of person behaves in that type of way

when you notice this happening it's

probably because of this and it ends

like this so you go [ __ ]

that exactly

that it's like oh no here we go but also

I think there's a I mean there's a

beauty of having it happen to you over

and over and over again because you

realize oh here we go again when this

person does that thing and it ends like

this oh the last time it ended like this

well I hired this person it ended like

and it's fine yeah and so you don't

panic as much right when you're younger

and you lose people who were working for

you in your business you think the world

is going to end and then you know very

often it's just different when you hire

somebody else right and and usually uh

you the the new person will bring

something completely additive to the

table yeah and so it's actually a good

thing but it takes a long time to get to

that point where when someone's quitting

you're going great see you it isn't like

excruciatingly or or that you lose sleep

over it you know I rarely will lose

sleep anymore if if uh someone is going

because you always also think if they're

not really thrilled to be here and and

working like at top level then probably

they'll be happier somewhere else and

and that means more happiness will also

come into that spot and when you're

young in business the story you tell

yourself about what that person quitting

means is just deeply illogical and

riddled with like fear and emotion yes

and it's about you it's it's personal

yes instead of it being about them yes

and uh but when you get older and you

see these good people go and you know

come and go you realize that it is what

it is it's unavoidable system isn't it

yeah it's not it's not a fight you could

have ever win no company has ever

managed to keep 100% of their employees

for a sustained period of time so um so

what what how did you get to that point

to exiting the business okay so well at

Bliss so we we launched Bliss in I think

July of 2000 oh sorry 1996 so we opened

I had three treatment rooms before that

in my little place called let's face it

and I opened I think nine treatment

rooms and then we put a nap room in in

the next place which was cob right and

you know back in the '90s we didn't have

there wasn't social media there was no

way to really get the word out fast

unless you had an article in a magazine

and because really that really like

moved the needle oh my it was a

completely different moment now you get

a full page in the New York Times right

you get traffic to your website for a

day yeah nothing no nothing because it's

so spliced up right everything is so

temporary back then you got an article

in vog and your phone rang for 18 months

[ __ ] yeah it was so much easier however

you had to be good enough to get an

article in Vogue so there were a million

people doing what you did but you had to

make sure that the experience that you

were offering was cool enough beautiful

enough desirable that all of your people

were trained well that the results were

good etc etc and so we were great right

we gave great great service can I ask

you a question on that do you think

service was better back in those days

because there was less ability to

because what you said there is like you

had to to be good enough to get on those

very few big big stages whereas these

days you can kind of [ __ ] products and

[ __ ] people can pay to be seen much

easier than they probably could have

back then I'm guessing and get an

endorsement from a from a Vogue yeah um

so is it well it's not sustainable

though is it how many times can you pay

if actually people don't come back more

than once and Word of Mouth then becomes

your you know starts to bring tell your

business it's still the same it's all

the same like today is the same it's

just split into different stuff but if

you can't keep that customer for more

than one two three transactions you

might as well go home yeah yeah yeah so

you numit yeah you got to figure it out

at the beginning like what is going to

be so much better how is going to be

that much better how are you going to

deliver it consistently right make sure

that she is never or he is never

disappoint or they are never right

disappointed and you you have to look at

I mean if you look at acronyms right

this LTV to CAC stuff which I hate

thinking of it that way

but cuz it's humans right it's like well

how many transactions is this person

going to come back for 3 years and be a

loyal customer and order stuff from you

six times a year or are they going to

order once and go H like it has to be

pretty compelling where'd you start with

h and my recommendation as I think they

have a starter box on the website where

you can get a sample of all the products

you might not like some of the products

I don't love all of the products I'm

going to be completely honest with you I

don't but the ones that I do love I

could now not live without and for me my

my starting point was the mix Berry RTD

didn't really like mixing protein

powders before um so I when they had a a

ready to drink drink I went for that and

secondly the brand new protein powder

which I've talked about a couple of

times in this podcast now 100 odd

calories in total 26 of your vitamins

and nutrients and it tastes like a

delicious smoothie one might get from

some fast food establishment but without

all the crap in it give it a shot I

don't think you'll regret it when you

look back at why you were successful in

that business is it because of that

attention to detail oh yeah in Bliss oh

my God yes how extreme are you so

extreme extreme extreme extreme I mean

everything from how you laid on that

table to what the sheets smelled like to

how you bolstered their knees so that

the backs of their heels when they were

lying for a facial for 60 Minutes the

backs of their heels wouldn't ache

because their knees were elevated the

right way to the wax that you put on

their hands to how much you massage them

to the responses that you would give and

we trained everybody in terms of the

customer says this it's all about them

right it's about making them feel good

not only you know their face their body

whatever you're treating but mentally

right it's not about you there are no

complaints you don't whine about

anything it's all about making them

thrilled feel great about themselves

look great they should walk out of there

feeling

like we had literally I think the

Testament to it when you think back is

crazy loyalty so people would come in

for their facials and say they came in

on Tuesday night at 7:00 evenings of

course were always booked we closed at

10:00 but so you only have like a 6:30

to 8 or 8 to 9:30 or you know you kind

of back it out usually an hour and a

half for a facial so really there were

only two evening slots unless you left

work early and then there were three

evening slots 10 rooms that means you

got 30 people in in the evening other

people they want to come in they got to

like make an excuse to their boss and

come during their day right or take a

day off work come for their facial which

people actually did but people would

book their spot every month for 2 years

right so that they wouldn't miss it and

if they had to change they would call

and say could you swap me with somebody

else because I don't want to miss it or

they would have a friend book a

different slot and then they would swap

with their friend so we had a waiting

list of people who just wanted to come

in and we were booked every day all day

for like probably a year in advance for

those those T treatment rooms um but we

would keep a waiting list and if we

didn't get people in now this is the day

no email right okay there was not Emil

was email I thought you got no emails

one day I was like no there were no

emails yeah so you had the phone and you

had your computer booking system sure

but you couldn't just mass email

everybody so we would literally keep a

list of people who were waiting for

appointments and at the end of each day

if we didn't get them in on a

cancellation we call every single one

and apologize

and then tell so at 7:00 somebody would

start the story calls we call them the

story calls and you would just call

whose idea was that me so M my you have

clearly very very high standards yes for

for detail yeah how do you police that

amongst people that might not have the

same high standards well they're not my

people so you'd fire them well they

would probably be better elsewhere where

their standards were more aligned with

the business that they were working for

I mean bureaucratic like well I mean you

you hire people and then you see if they

can operate in your I mean look if

you're the Olympic hockey team and

you've got a goalie Who's terrible they

can't stay or you're not going to win

are you so it's not about firing it's

like is this a team member who belongs

on this team yeah fire I guess you would

say yes you would fire them you would

try how uncompromising were you about

the standards very

uncompromising I mean we also wrote

thank you notes right so every person

who came in for a treatment whether it

was an eyebrow wax or a manicure or a

facial or a massage the person who did

that treatment had to write a thank you

note and it got posted out that night if

you weren't uncompromising about those

standards those little thank you notes

that apologies you know for the waiting

list well then they knew we were still

thinking about them right so they

thought I have a chance they haven't

forgotten about me and we were grateful

that they were waiting to come in and

pay us money I mean they've giving you a

paycheck aren't they do you think you'd

be sat here now if you hadn't been

uncompromising with the standards in

Bliss all those years ago in 1996 thank

you know the answer to that question

question of course I wouldn't cuz it you

know it follows yeah compounds you just

know what good looks like and then you

know what people respond to and that

people want to be treated you know with

respect and you know with gratitude

right you're a customer you're handing

over your hard earned money to somebody

they better be grateful and that also

keeps you going every day right just

there's so much science about gratitude

and how just starting your day with

thinking wow I'm so lucky right I'm

thinking about those things that you're

lucky to have I think I've always

operated businesses with that idea of I

am grateful that people come to me to

buy something or they trust me with

their face right or they'll get up at 7

o'clock in the morning and pay me $40 to

teach them in aerobics class in their

living room I mean they could be they

could be sponsoring so many other people

but they're sponsoring me and isn't that

so generous of them if I were to ask you

on that um if I were to ask you and this

is tough to do in hindsight but I think

we're all capable of doing it in that

period of your life and that those early

moments and really throughout your

career what is it about you that made

you successful I mean I've picked up on

one which is really high standards the

other one I've picked up on I picked up

on the minute you walk through the door

which is you're just a very pleasant

human being and I'm like all of these

things if you if they compound over like

30 years you're going to get to a really

good place but is there anything else

within you know some people are

Visionaries they are you know whatever

is there anything else where you say do

you know what that's probably a trait of

me that made me successful yeah I I

connect the dots okay in new ways so

that if that were to be kind of my thing

yeah it's about um have you read the

book it's called Originals by Adam Grant

yes I'm there yeah yeah so someone gave

it to me actually the art teacher and my

son school gave it to me and said this

sounds like you and I read it and I was

like oh you know don't you think you're

special yeah yeah and then and then you

read a book and you're like nope I'm not

special because everybody he's he's got

it down like every chapter was like oh

yeah this is me oh yes this is me this

is me and um he talks about in the book

about how uh you become an expert in

your area right so you you are very deep

in expertise in one particular area but

then you're very curious about all this

other stuff which is me I scan

everything right whether or not I'm

really interested in it I got

newsletters coming out of my eyeballs

and I just kind of scan I'll click on

things and sometimes I'll just force

myself to read something that I have no

interest in at all just because there

might be something in there um and and I

think from doing that I find new ideas

that's what creativity is isn't it yes I

think but you have to feed it like top

of funnel mid funnel bottom of funnel

right and so if you don't have enough

top of funnel you dry up at the bottom

where you know there's nothing that

comes through and then being able to

kind of edit a good idea from a mediocre

idea

right yeah I guess if you come up with a

lot so the more you feed the funnel then

the more stuff you have to look at and

then being able to know which one is the

one that is actually going to resonate

with enough people that it's actually a

business because a lot of people I think

can be quite Naval gazing in I have this

idea and people will care yeah so I can

also be quite brutal with my own ideas

and just go who cares like you think

about it for a couple of months and then

you have to be able to not fall in love

with your own idea is kind of like with

writing so writers will say a really

great writer is like you can't fall in

love with your own words you need to be

able to go into your writing and just

chop it out right just so it's succinct

and you like you can't love what you did

you have to hate what you did and cut it

all down so that just the crispy parts

are there and I think it's the same with

ideas you can spend a lot of time on

stuff that nobody cares about and so you

have to be able to

edit so interesting I completely agree

and I think about the the successes I've

had in my life and it was just a process

of like multiple sources for multiple

disciplines pull one little dot as

you've said from those different

disciplines and then when they come

together so it could be like

cryptocurrencies music and my knowledge

of social media and then you come

together and you go oh together it makes

something new and interesting and

valuable as a these three different

points of inspiration um I was going to

ask you the question when we're talking

about that I was like can you teach

someone in your experience to be better

at thinking of good good ideas oh I

think you can provide the uh environment

okay right but not everyone's going to

be able to do that so there is going to

be a cohort of people who just don't

think of new ideas and they're probably

really good at other things and that's

okay because the world needs all of them

right um it's like Switzerland like they

you know some people are plumbers but

they still make 100 Grand a year and

everybody's happy so if we put people in

the right seats on the bus there's such

a position and that of course is

management isn't it it's trying to find

when someone has talent but not in a

particular area you make sure they're

doing the right thing um but I think you

can you see this a lot in business

school not that I've been there but I've

sat on a lot of panels with people who

are who are entrepreneurs right and

they're entrepreneurs because they have

done a business plan or they've done a

business model they've modeled out what

if what you know we can do this this

they haven't come up with oh wait just

like you said if I can this and this and

do it this way or right then I can make

this happen they've they've said well

I've gone to Harvard and now I'm going

to model out this business plan and I

think if we do this that that we can

make oh look is a profit yeah and so

there's two ways to come by it and I

guess both are valid and especially

these days um

the there's so much money in the

universe that people will invest in so

many things that you could actually get

to a a good result

by just putting a business plan down

yeah having tons of money and having

gone to Harvard which is much easier to

get money yes and being Silicon Valley

and being a white male all that kind of

stuff yeah um so it works yeah yeah is

it full of passion yeah I don't know

maybe if you're passionate about making

money that's a passion it's not my way

to do it CU I just have to be passionate

about whatever it is I'm making or

selling or you know whatever I think I'm

improving

if it's improving people's existence

then I'm passionate about it and there

was like so amazing to be at Bliss and

have people coming in and walk out the

door after their treatment feeling like

so happy and you could see it right and

they just had such a great time and you

thought well I'm responsible for that

and what a great thing to do all day and

then the same with Pewdiepie right is

wow people open up these boxes that they

get delivered and it is like it's like a

fairy tale and it didn't cost them much

so they can treat themselves cuz

everybody needs a little lift once in a

while and to be able to get this

incredibly Deluxe stuff for such a an

affordable price you know every time one

of those boxes opens up that somebody is

just feeling thrilled and that is a

reason to like show up in the morning

right yeah yeah yeah one of them sounds

like a really sustainable fulfilling

intrinsically driven Journey and the

other one sounds a bit like yeah like

you know the pursuit of trying to get

rich which is is harder to sustain quite

honestly because on the hard days on the

hard I was going to say you know it gets

excruciatingly difficult yeah so one day

there's going to be many days that it it

you'd probably quit if you weren't just

truly just living foress yeah regardless

of remuneration but speaking of money

you sell Bliss at some point yeah so in

1999 we had quite a few um interested

buyers is that three years after y

that's quick we were great yeah I can

tell three selling the company 3 years

later at you know yeah at my at the age

I was was quite hilarious I would have

been 30 super young yeah 30 when we sold

it uh so I sold 70% to lvmh that's nuts

it was nuts you know we had a few

different large cosmetic conglomerates

kind of circling around yeah um one came

in and gave me a big presentation and

they had champagne ready and we're

talking about how they'd put me in a

studio by myself and I could just be

creative you know this you're talking to

a girl who does facials and waxes

people's legs do I want to go to a

studio by myself I mean my favorite

thing was knowing I'd look at my list of

who was coming in that day and it was

like oh I get to see this person this

person this that the joy was all the

people right so they oh we're going to

give you a loft and right and then we

had another one who came in and said we

want to turn your spa into a spa under

this brand name which I thought why why

would you buy it if you yeah um and then

there was

who flew me to Paris on the Concord no

he didn't yes he did and took me out for

lunch it was it was quite fabulous

though I have to admit it was wow and it

it was hilarious when I got back to

Brooklyn when I flew back from Paris on

the Concord and it was the middle of the

West Indian Day Parade in Brooklyn so

I'm in a taxi from the airport going

back to the spa although it was a

holiday day and I was going we had

redone the floors and I was going just

to make sure that uh everything was dry

and move the furniture back into the

place so I'm I'm on the subway cuz I

couldn't get a taxi to take me all the

way in because the West Indian Day

Parade was blocking Flatbush Avenue and

I was on the subway going towards my

prin Street stop and there was coke

spilled all over it not Coke but you

know like cocaa yeah Coca-Cola spilled

all over the seats and drunk people

everywhere and I'm standing there going

I wonder if I'm the only person on this

Subway who was on the Conqueror this

morning this morning I thought yeah

probably probably all the other people

are in their car

services it was pretty funny so anyway

they were the most interesting they

loved the business we were kind of hot

at the time they were looking for

American Acquisitions I think they had

moved Sephora also into America at the

time so they thought it would be kind of

a good partnership and and you know the

price was right and I thought well I've

been starving for since I moved to New

York right every month it was kind of

like do I have enough money to pay the

rent BL me yeah and I just thought well

is this going to Happ happen again you

don't know you don't know if you'll ever

be offered like a a big chunk of change

like that so and you 100% own the

company at this point yeah yeah so and

you hav raise money outside Capital they

bought 70% of the business for T tens of

millions we'll just say right yes

unbelievable yeah I know I mean you

could have just stopped there right you

could have just stopped there and oh my

God I was 30 what what are you going to

do I know I'm I'm a hypocrite cuz I yeah

yeah you're not going to just stop there

while you're going to go like stand at

your fridge all day but I mean most

people will just land that one big bag

in their life if they're lucky if

they're extremely lucky and in the

minority but then you went again and you

created a business called soap Glory

which lot of people know in this country

yeah it was big so Glory was big really

big at the time you know it was um if I

was I was reading a lot of newspapers

and there was a lot of collaborating

going on between kind of designer Brands

and you know High Street and I thought

wouldn't it be fun just to kind of make

a a really great brand um that has we

couldn't do at drugstore prices you

can't really do high quality like super

high quality product and sell it at a at

a drugstore price when you're going

through the retail food chain because

there's all the markups right so you you

had to try and make really

like I'd say I won't say high quality

but good quality products for a price

point and make them really fun and I

just thought you know what let me try

doing something that's using all the

puns I'm a bit of a writer so I love to

write copy and so it was all about

making the products kind of fun and you

know good quality for just the right

price to kind of you know be mass and I

launched in Harvey Nichols and it was

actually quite a good success but Harvey

Nichols only has nightsbridge and then a

few other stores around the country and

I knew I wasn't going to be able to make

much of a splash just being in Harvey

nickels on a few shelves um so boots

came to us and said you know would you

like to roll out into different boot

stores that was really interesting

because I thought this is going to be

amazing oh my God we're going to go into

boots we're gon to make like

millions and I remember I think we were

in 300 boot stores and you just for some

reason you just think okay if it's in

Boots right every brand you see in Boots

you think oh they're making a fortune

yeah um and I remember we launched and I

think that the first week I think we did

$300 o yeah and then I couldn't figure

out why so I go into my local boots and

it's on the bottom shelf uh

and so that was they don't reset the

shelves for 10 months so you start just

thinking oh my God I'm going to be

making $300 a week for 10 months until

they reset the shelves and I fight my

way to the top I need to get back into

just the Gap there in that period though

when You' you've left Bliss and you're

you're not doing anything now you have a

lot of money so you don't really need to

worry about the Bills or the rent

anymore anything like that I I just I'm

just intrigued because I've I took a

month off okay one month yeah

it wasn't enough that's not a long time

it wasn't enough it wasn't enough I took

six months between my last sale and

figuring out what to do next six months

was better one month one month so in

that one month what are you doing you're

doing I went on holiday to the south of

France okay so you go on holiday to

France then you come back and and you're

just straight into it yeah yeah just you

know ideas I mean I always have ideas so

I'll be walking down the street I'll get

an idea so you kind of jot them down and

then the ones that keep bubbling up to

the surface those are the good ones I

love I love this I read about I read I

read about you talking about this

because I it rang so true to me because

we all people like you and um creative

people generally will get yeah I don't

want to bring myself into I'm trying to

be humble here um people will get lots

of ideas a lots of the time and the

process in which you decide which one to

go is and which on should just be

disregarded um I find fascinating and

I've only been able to understand it um

in hindsight why I pick certain ideas

and why I just let other ones go but how

do you filter out the ones that are

worth pissing and the ones aren't okay

so there's something I call the so what

test okay so you ask yourself so what

tell yourself your idea and then ask

well so what and if you cannot explain

why you would want to do that or why

anybody should care in one sentence it's

not a good enough idea nice yeah but you

also let them sit for a while right yeah

because there's so many you have to the

ones that are just sort of average they

just they go away right and the good

ones kind of stay at the top and you

think I've got to do that I've got to do

that that's really good I would buy that

of course here's the other cheat right I

only sell stuff that I would buy so I

can't you know it would be difficult for

me if I'm trying to create a business

centered around something that I don't

want or have a need for I don't know if

I would be as good at it uh super easy

to do beauty pie because I love beauty

products I love candles I love

supplements I know all the good Labs

I've worked with them for 30 years I

know where to get the good stuff I'm

gonna buy it anyway I would like to buy

the high quality stuff I don't want to

have to pay retail okay so obvious that

one right with fit flop it was I could

not find a pair of shoes that actually

felt comfortable on my feet and I love

you know I love uh fashion I can't

believe how many businesses you started

and how many of them have done so well

it's not that many it is a lot one more

I have one more but it's not I can't

tell you I'll kill you it's not can't

super duper yeah that also oh you forgot

about that one yeah but but actually

that one is taking a he us because our

supplier shut down during Co and so it

was yeah well it's still around except

our supplier shut down and so we have to

reformulate everything so soap and glory

is a business that even I know and I'm

not you know yeah you're not a Cosmetics

guy well you know well because at

Christmas at boot

oh maybe you'll be you can be a beauty

pie beauty guy but no I KN I know the

brand it's a very very well-known brand

so because we used to take over that

week before Christmas at Boots we would

literally have hundreds of thousands of

those big pink bags that people would be

able to buy for a really crazy deal that

was also I guess a learning just seeing

like how much people love a

deal um and every it was almost every

year that we would be this sort of

Christmas bumper

bag I would see women leaving boots with

like three on each arm because they were

buying them for all of their friends

when you think of that business why was

it successful and um what was your

what's your sort of emotional meor

recollection and memory of that phase of

your life um gosh that's a another deep

question all of these are deep questions

yeah okay so well emotional recollection

I mean it was great to be able to build

something new it was great to be able to

build something that was popular in a

different country right so you didn't Do

It in America you also could do it in

the UK like Ronaldo

yeah maybe I'm not so good with the ball

but um it was exciting to do something

Mass like at Mass Price points because

you could reach more people so more

people could afford the joy that you

were trying to bring through that

product uh so that's always really nice

because having something that's only

affordable well I love high quality

things the

exclusion uh of people that comes along

with a luxury price point I don't like

so much right so the idea of luxury for

affordable of course is is the also the

Holy Grail um so building it was you

know building s and Glory was also a

real experience in terms of learning how

to deal with a a retailer who really had

a monopolistic grip on a country right

cuz boots was the power you know the all

powerful and so that was a real learning

curve how big did serent Glory get I

think we sold we were selling probably

hundred plus million dollars wor the

stuff a year through

boots [ __ ] that's a lot of money it was

not bad it was it was biggish bad it was

big big yeah it was big I mean it could

could be it could have been bigger could

have been bigger could have been bigger

it was great for me I don't you know

what's the difference between like 50

100 100

week yeah you just it's like a after you

can pay your rent and eat and buy as

many t-shirts as you need you know your

life doesn't change that much right but

you want to you want to bring out more

and see how much you can do and see if

you can offer even yeah better stuff so

you sold that business I guess boots

yeah in uh

2014 2014 not so long ago it really

wasn't no seven years yeah yeah they

really wanted it and how did you feel

when you when you you know they made the

offer you accept the offer did it feel

again like the was it was there a loss

of orientation in your life no because

oh here we go yeah well at the same time

I have fit flop right okay my Footwear

brand is also big is yeah about we going

to biggish again uh you know 65

countries we sell a lot of shoes could

be bigger it could be and it's going to

be bigger um and yeah and so I sort of

had one thing to still grip on to and to

really focus on and to make sure that

that quality and and about what kind of

product we're going to produce for the

next season it's all kind of the same as

product development and then rolling it

out and trying to learn you know given

that feedback loop that you get from

from the product that you're launching

remarkable um your your partner is also

an entrepreneur yes yeah he does now

Costa Rican um Echo

tourism how how is that working with uh

not working with how is it to to have a

a partner that's also in in the field of

Entrepreneurship because you know what

it is I'm going to ask you a question

here because I'm super curious maybe you

can help me I've always wondered if as

an entrepreneur it would make more sense

to be with an entrepreneur or someone

that just does nothing sits at home just

you know yeah nice and simple being

there yeah yeah exactly uh well it

depends I suppose on your appetite for

risk and if you have risk anymore right

so if you've already um manage to um you

know sell something and you have a

little bit of money in the bank than

having two people going out there and

risking it all is okay because you have

something to fall back on I think

certainly having a partner who

understands what you're going through

dayto day and will listen to you you

know we talked about being able to see

someone uh it's so important to have

someone who sees you and who can

understand what it might be like for you

on a day that's really hard and offer

you that kind of support um my husband

is great with that like he I couldn't

ask for somebody who supports me more

and he does the stuff that I you know

necessarily don't want to do in terms of

that family stuff and we pick up the the

uh different um programs I suppose

really beautifully together because

he'll take care of some stuff and I take

care of other stuff and and when you

come home are you good at sort of

compartmentalizing the work stuff and

then like switching off and being

present with family maybe not always I

appreciate the honesty I'm not going to

tell anybody I don't know if you can be

right because sometimes work is really

interesting also right so I've got two

teenage boys and they sometimes come out

of their rooms sometimes not and so

sometimes I'll be on social media

chatting with customers right giving

them advice telling them what to use on

their skin it's actually it's quite

social as it is social media uh I go

home at night because I'm hoping they

will come out of their rooms and I can

spend time with them but we we have

dinner and then they usually go want to

you know play video games because all

their friends are on video games so if

they do come out of their room you know

at some point I might be in the middle

of something am I really good at just

turning that off and saying I am here

for you young man not

always sometimes but sometimes what I'm

doing is actually more interesting than

talking about the basketball game that

you know the NBA blah blah blah or

whatever it is and I'm maybe not the

best at switching attention gears but

I'm trying and I'm mindful love it yeah

yeah do is it something that you you

think you want to be better at yes

absolutely yes more of that in the

moment right really trying to live just

that moment there's a great podcast have

you ever listened to making sense with

Sam Harris yes once or twice I'm a big

Sam Harris fan me too yeah so it's you

know it is about okay you're here right

now and live it and and if you could

live every moment over again because you

only get one shot he you know how he has

those little daily there like a little

daily thing that pops up and you can

listen to and I he was talking once

about how you have one opportunity to

live this moment and you have one

opportunity to have an interaction with

someone that is this interaction like

make it good right and just thinking

well I can

either you know look at this as an

opportunity and and a gift or I can be

down and negative about it and you just

choose so I try as much as possible to

to choose even if I have you know cranky

teenagers or whatever work thing going

on to choose to really be positive about

the fact that I'm given the opportunity

to live that moment do you ever worry

that um you'll regret being so busy and

missing certain things always don't you

yeah I do yeah of course yeah especially

with the kids M with my parents a lot I

think God my parents are getting old and

I think I was I'm I'm going at some

point I'm going to keep it facts my

parents going to die and I'm going to

think to myself I wish I would have

spent more time with them yeah the

deathbed test I literally wrote down the

deathbed test in my notes Here I want to

ask you about that tell me about the

deathbed test oh the deathbed test is

like what are you going to on your

deathbed think back and go God I wish I

would have done more of that or I wish I

would have tried this or I wish I tried

that and so if you live this actually

was something that I think her name was

Tina Johnson she was the CEO of sax

Fifth Avenue I remember having a meeting

with her and she said you know what I

just always use the deathbed test it's

like I don't want to miss my kids you

know this particular event or ceremony

right you will kick yourself if you miss

the grade five graduation that that is

always going to be more important than

your conversion rate yeah I wrote an

article actually called deathbed

thinking which is quite strange when I

when I saw that you you had this thing

called the death bed test and it was

inspired by Bron Brony we who was the

palis of n in Australia who interview

people as they're about to die yeah and

what they wish they would have yeah done

with their lives have you seen also on

social media going around I think I've

seen it on Instagram but you see um some

elderly people and they're taking

pictures of them with yeah what is your

advice right and it's always very simple

be nice to everybody obvious stuff yeah

yeah but you just think well yeah cuz

you got to live with yourself and and

it's the deathbed test looking back on

it but actually your deathbed test Sam

Harris would say is probably taking

place every moment of your waking

existence right I wish I would have been

more polite I wish because if you're not

you you have to then live with how you

feel about yourself and that is more

important than anything so there's

there's a mini a micro deathbed test

taking place every moment I would argue

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that's currently building multiple

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to blockchain to consumer goods

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up using the service I was looking at a

a couple of things that you'd said one

of them was about your motto for life

which is about choosing yourself and not

waiting for anybody to choose you yeah

what does that mean well you know you

can wait around for someone to tell you

that you're the one who can do it or

it's your turn or you can just do it

yourself right you're the one who is

going to tell you that you can do

something no one is going to pick you

out of a line and say hey go you have to

put yourself out there so I remember I

have this fantastic friend his name is

Emelio Sosa and he actually worked when

he was a budding fashion designer and in

New York a long time ago and he worked

at the front desk at Bliss for a while

and it was just his you know like actors

would work at a restaurant he was like

the cool guy at the front desk at BL and

um and he designed a few ranges and you

know they weren't always commercially

successful but he was just the coolest

person around and I remember um I lost

touch with him for a little while you

know few years because he stopped

working at the spa and when I found him

again somehow because again this preil

right I found him and he came over for

dinner and he I said so what are you up

to and he said oh I'm designing costumes

for winter marceles and I've been on

tour with Selen de and blah blah blah

blah blah right and I said amilio like

what happened and he said you know what

I woke up one day and I just thought I

am worthy and that was it right like

what that was a moment it moved for him

he just had to decide that he was

talented and worthy of all of this

success and then he had it and I think

it's the same for so many people that

they just aren't convinced

now you might just be born convinced I

see some people who are born convinced

right and they don't necessarily have

the experience or the Merit to back it

up and then there's some people who have

just worked for it and after you do that

much work and you are you know your

expertise is at a level where you

actually are convinced because you got

evidence you've got evidence and then

there's when you're on the cusp right

where you just have to decide so that

you can get more U practice to become

that one but at some point you know

you're on that fence you got to decide

and then you take yourself there so it's

really remarkable because when you were

describing your different business

ventures there was a moment when you

described your clients moving to The

Hamptons for the summer and like

business drops off a little bit and you

you said so casually so I decided to go

and do a beauty course to find out how I

like that moment I think is probably the

most pivotal difficult special moment

because you made a a a decision

in a New Direction yes that is like it

sounds so simple the way you just like

gloss past it I was thinking that's

pretty profound very few everyone gets

stuck in what they do yeah it seems and

the certainty of this the comfortable

certainty of that wherever they are to

make just make the decision one day that

I'm going to go do a beauty course to

find out why acne skin is the way it is

and see if I can do something about it

is is the for me the pivotal unique

thing yeah that's actually you know good

observation yeah I was going to stop you

on it but you glided I never thought of

it that way but you're right it's like

almost how dare you I'm like how people