There's lots of data now showing that

people that are doing these like short

bursts at least a minute long but up to

three minutes they're moving faster with

intent and it's having outsiz effects on

on health outcome. So for example

individuals that do on the high end so

they're doing you know 3 minutes of this

short burst of an unstructured type of

exercise snack and they do it three

times a day. So it's a total of 9

minutes a day. Okay, that's associated

with a 40% reduction in all-c causeed

mortality, 40% reduction in cancer

related mortality, a 50% reduction in

cardiovascular related mortality. Wow.

>> 9 minutes a day.

>> Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Dr. Rhonda Patrick, a

biomedical scientist and leading public

health educator. For over a decade,

Rhonda has been one of the most trusted

voices in building science-based health

protocols. Today, we discuss what the

latest and best research says we should

all be doing to improve our health and

vitality and avoid disease. Rhonda

shares with us her exact exercise,

nutrition, supplementation, and sauna

protocols. And we get really detailed

about the mechanisms and logic behind

each one. We also discussed the things

that science say you can do to

significantly reduce your cancer and

cardiovascular risk, including how to

reduce visceral fat and arterial plaque.

Today's discussion truly leaves no stone

unturned. We discuss how eating can

increase inflammation, believe it or

not, ways to support your gut health,

creatine, vitamin D, why broad vitamin

and mineral and fiber support is

crucial, as well as the different forms

of magnesium and each of their unique

effects. We also discuss omega-3s and

why prescription sources of omega-3s may

be the cleanest and most cost-sufficient

way to obtain sufficient omega-3 intake.

We also discuss the importance of

prioritizing regular resistance training

and hit workouts over protein. You still

need protein, but emphasizing the

exercise component is crucial. And we

discuss fiber, micronutrients, and why

short-term fasting can be beneficial.

Dr. Dr. Rhonda Patrick is a true wealth

of knowledge and today she generously

provides us a master class on how you

can design and adjust the exact health

protocols to meet your specific needs.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

that this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however part of my desire and

effort to bring zerocost to consumer

information about science and science

related tools to the general public. In

keeping with that theme, today's episode

does include sponsors. And now for my

discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.

Welcome back, Dr. Ronda Patrick.

>> Excited to be here.

>> It's been a while. I'm so excited.

There's so much to go into. And I'll

start off the same way I started last

time because it's even more true. Thank

you for being first person into this

public science health education

business. I don't know if everyone's

aware of it, but you were the first

person in, which is why I didn't say

first man in because the first person in

was and is a woman. and you've done a

marvelous job of educating people on

science, how to parse papers and data,

health practices, and um you know, the

rest of us are just trying to follow in

your wake. So, thank you very much. I

just want to thank you for being first.

>> Oh, man. Thank you so much for that. And

also, thank you for doing what you do. I

mean, you really do a great service for

science, communication, um you know,

education, helping people love science

and get healthier.

>> Well, thank you. Well, uh you're the

pioneer. It's not always easy being a

pioneer, but we all benefit. So,

let's jump in at exercise because um

lately you've actually been posting your

workouts, which is awesome. And uh

you're clearly very fit. I learned

before talking to you today that uh you

were a competitive athlete. You were a

long jumper or triple jumper.

>> I was a long jumper, but I would say my

real competitive athleteness comes from

my jump roping.

>> Okay.

>> On a professional jump roping team.

>> Professional.

>> Yes. Yeah, it was it was we would

compete. So I my friend and I started

the team when we were in second grade

and it was called the San Diego Sands

Skippers. It was part of the

International Rope Skipping Organization

which was actually started by her uncle

but there's jump rope teams all around

the world and you know now I think

there's a new name but like it got taken

over by the Universal jump rope team or

something like that. I don't know

exactly what it is but um so I was on a

team and every year we would compete in

in Boulder, Colorado. There was

competitions for all kinds of, you know,

jumping rope and um I would perform and

start jump rope teams around the school

around different schools in San Diego.

So I I used to get out of school um you

know get out of school free card and uh

my partner and I would go and and start

um do workshops at other schools and

help them start jump rope teams and the

idea was cardiovascular health, healthy

heart and uh yeah so so that's really I

would say my my my roots with uh being a

competitive athlete. Awesome. I love

skipping rope. Is it okay to say

skipping rope or is jumping rope the

>> Okay,

>> skipping rope. Jumping rope.

>> And actually, it's a great opportunity

for me to ask you what your thoughts are

about um exercise that isn't just

linear, right? I know like real jump

ropers can do crossovers and um and

these days I'm seeing a lot more about

rope flow. I think it's David Week and

others online are, you know, stuff

that's getting people out of the

standard, you know, curls, bench

presses, lunges, you know, and getting

movements that are more just, for lack

of a better term, across the body. Do

you think there's something to that in

terms of real physical benefits? I mean,

I imagine there is.

>> Sure. I mean, I wouldn't be the expert

to be able to give you a good answer on

that, but I do think that jumping rope

in general has unique benefits in

addition to obviously it's a great

cardiovascular exercise. You're getting

the weightbearing aspects as well for

building bone density. And I think that

earlier for me, you know, I was doing it

as a a young girl. So important, right?

because you're kind of banking that that

bone density early on, which is

important because at some point, you

know, menopause will hit and and uh

estrogen goes down and and so you start

to lose more bone. But um yeah, I'm sure

there's a lot of benefits to jumping

rope beyond what I'm describing as

cardiovascular benefits and bone

benefits that someone else could answer.

>> I'm certainly going to get back to

jumping rope now that we, you know,

resurrected it in this conversation. And

I have to say, um, uh, bone density

measurements aside, you have awesome

posture. I noticed people's posture. Oh,

really?

>> Yeah. I didn't didn't mean to put you on

the spot here, but yeah. When I walked

in, I was like, if you ever interacted

with Rhonda in person, which I I have,

you have amazing posture, and these

days, good posture is rare. So, who

knows? Maybe the things uh are related.

I imagine they probably are. Bone health

and posture and so forth. In terms of

the sorts of exercise that people are

more familiar with, what's your routine

look like? and what sorts of things in

your routine are non-negotiables and

where's the place for experimentation

and kind of what you're exploring now.

>> So for me, exercise is part of my

personal hygiene as you and I were

discussing it. It really is a

non-negotiable. I absolutely have to do

exercise just like I have to brush my

teeth. And um you know I kind of got

that from Dr. Dr. Ben Lavine, who's a

probably one of the world leading

cardiovascular exercise physiologists.

He's at UT Southwest in Dallas. Just

want to shout out his name because I've

really learned a lot from him. But the

non-negotiables for me really are

getting cardiovascular exercise and

getting my my resistance training. So,

building muscle, maintaining muscle

strength as well. So, my routine for me,

I work out probably about 5 to six hours

a week. And those workouts, I largely am

doing a combination of high-intensity

interval training that's not necessarily

like the Norwegian 4x4 where I'm going

as hard as I can for one minute or four

minutes and then recovering for three

minutes and doing that four times.

That's really, you know, the Norwegian

4x4 is a hard workout. Um, it's really

good for improving your cardior fitness,

which I think is one of the best markers

for longevity. We can talk about that.

Um, I do a lot of, you know, it's a it's

a mixture of doing,

you know, rowing machine, getting on the

assault bike, and then doing mix it in

mixing it in with lifting weights, doing

some deadlifts, you know, doing squats.

Um, so it's really for me a

non-negotiable to to do my my vigorous

intensity exercise is what I would call

it. So, you're really kind of getting

your heart rate up to, you know, 80% max

heart rate at at points. Not always, but

especially during the intervals. I would

say that's a non-negotiable for me.

>> How many days a week are you doing that?

>> I do my my longer hit workouts. So, I

have four days a week where I'm doing at

least an hour. So, two of those two of

those sessions are more of a CrossFit

type of training where I'll do the first

30 minutes will be strength training.

So, I'll just be lifting heavier with

like, you know, fewer reps. What's the

rest between sets? Sorry to get

granular, but people will wonder.

>> What's funny is I typically rest about 2

minutes between my sets. I I I recover

pretty quick.

>> Um, and my co I do it with a coach and

my coach usually tells me that I'm spot

on. I'm like ready to go and it's been

about 2 minutes.

>> So I I usually that's my recovery time.

>> And so the first 30 minutes is strength

training and that'll be like deadlifts.

It'll be you know squats. I'll be

cleaning. I'll be doing front squats.

Sometimes I do barbell or back squats,

right? like it's a mixture of different

types of strength training.

>> And then the last 30 minutes is more of

a high-intensity interval training

session session. So it'll be like,

>> you know, where I'm I'm getting my heart

rate up. So I'm mixing in the row

machine and then I have like maybe I'm

doing cleans but they're lighter, right?

So it's like more reps but lighter load,

right? So

>> um that's I do that twice a week and

that each is an hour session. And then I

do also twice a week about an hour and

20 minutes of it's also more high

intensity but I have more recovery time

cuz I'm doing with my girlfriends and we

kind of chitchat a little bit and so um

but it's a very similar we do you know

rowing machine assault bikes we do the

skier you know Rogue has that skier

>> and then we mix it in with you know

chest presses and we do you know

assisted pull-ups and we do you know

lighter squats with like larger you know

more reps. Mhm.

>> So that's another, you know, two hours a

week. So I have four hours a week of

just doing a lot of that sort of

CrossFit HIT type of training. And then

I mix that in with my more like runs

that I do, which I would say are

>> still they're still considered vigorous

intensity. They're just not quite as

high intensity. And I I do probably I

run in like maybe six miles a week. So

maybe maybe at at my max, but these days

I'm mostly running probably four like

four miles a week.

>> So um those runs tend to be like

sometimes they're two miles, sometimes

they're three miles. And you know,

>> you enjoy running.

>> I do. I do. And I think it's important

as well. And sometimes I'll run with my

husband and we just kind of like chill

out and talk. And

>> you know, it's it's a nice

>> time for me as well just to kind of do

that with him. Mhm.

>> Um and then on weekends I'll probably do

like a hike with my family and sometimes

we'll do like a sprint up the hill and

you know, but it's more just enjoyable

time in nature. Um still moving but you

know it's it's kind of family time too.

>> Weight vests on the run or hike.

>> No, I don't not I mean I'm kind of

wanting to experiment with that but not

really. I'm just kind of sometimes we

bring our puppy and

>> you know so it's it's more about the

experience I think than like I'm like I

get I get a lot of workout throughout

the week.

>> Sure.

>> But it's like you said it's

non-negotiable for me and and times when

I'm like like today. So, you know, I had

a long drive and so I I got on my

Pelaton and I did a 10-minute you know I

did a 10-minute Tabata back toback. So

it was like two backto-back Tobatas,

right? So it was it ended up being 10

minutes. It was like 30 second recovery

in between the two Tbata sessions. 2 to1

ratio, 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off.

But like I have to do something every

day and if I'm traveling or I have like

an early podcast or something, I'll I'll

just jump on the bike and I have to get

that blood flow. Sometimes I'm in my

hotel room and I don't want to go to the

gym. I don't have time and I just in my

room, you know, I do I do the air

squats, I'll do high knees, jumping

jacks, and I repeat for 10 minutes. I'm

getting my heart rate up and I'm, you

know, I've got sweat on my brow. Like

I'm not it's not like the most intense

workout, but it's so important for me.

You know, there's there's a variety of

brain benefits that have been shown with

even just 10 minutes of this vigorous

type of intensity of workout you do, you

know, where you're I mean, you probably

have seen this this data where it's like

just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of

exercise, you're immediately increasing

neuronal connections. Um, there's been

studies showing that you have an

improvement in executive function by

like 14%, which is pretty big. I think

it was like a 50 millisecond improvement

processing speed or something which

doesn't sound a lot but actually it

translates to a big improvement in

executive function. So my brain works

better, I feel better, you know, better

mood. Um there's even studies that have

compared impulse control after various

types of intensity of workout. So like

there's one study that compared a more

low intensity versus moderate intensity

versus high intensity. So, you're

talking about like walking versus maybe,

you know, jogging slowly where you can

still have a conversation versus like

you're doing a HIT workout, right?

You're on. When you're on, you're not

really talking because you're going as

hard as you can during that interval.

>> And it was the highintensity, you know,

vigorous intensity exercise that really

increased plasma serotonin, which has

been shown to associate with brain

serotonin. The studies have been done.

And serotonin is very important for, as

you know, for impulse control. I mean a

lot of people think about serotonin with

respect to mood because we have these

selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors

SSRIs that are used to treat you know

depression major depressive disorder but

serotonin as you know does so much more

more than that and impulse control is

one of the the the big things that

serotonin plays a role in and so the

studies showed that plasma serotonin

increased in the higher intensity group

and that correlated with improved

impulse control. So, of course, for us

now in the modern day society that we

live in, we're constantly being

bombarded with, you know, social media

and all these things and like you have

to be able to kind of like filter that

out and not like just go with the

impulse like check my social media,

check my, you know, and how many likes

did I get or whatever. You need to just

be able to focus. And so that for me,

you know, serotonin is important and so

I like to get that vigorous intensity

exercise as well.

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I love that you mentioned other other

functions of serotonin because, as you

point out, it is so heavily associated

with this mood aspect and certainly has

a role there. But um the impulse control

piece is I think is a non-trivial aspect

to uh the effects of exercise and just

generally I'm curious, do you um bring

your phone or feel compelled to check

your phone during workouts or are you

able to just say I'm compartmentalizing

now this is the workout. You might put

on music or check maybe text here or

there if you need to, but are you able

to compartmentalize or um do you

struggle with the the phone during

workouts?

>> Oh, I don't bring my phone to my workout

at all. Like I don't Now I do have a

watch that I wear that you know if

there's like an emergency I'll get a

text message. Oftentimes I put it on

silent like I on no notifications though

cuz I don't want to be bothered. But I

don't I don't really check my phone. Um,

I I I don't really like checking things

like social media. For me, it's just a

distraction. And frankly, I think it's

terrible for people's brains. Even

though like my business kind of depends

on it somewhat, I think I think social

media is not really good for people to

be honest. Uh, so I don't really check

my phone or bring my phone to my

workouts. My workouts are I like to chat

with my friends when I'm working out

with them and that's fun.

>> Yeah,

>> that's in real life.

>> Yes.

as the kids say.

>> Yeah, that's in real life. And um yeah,

phones, phones for me are not something

that I bring to my workout.

>> Great. Yeah, I've um been experimenting

with not allowing the phone in my gym

and just the workouts go so much better.

And I find that the mental and physical

resetting aspect of working out just

seems to be enhanced. But um sounds like

you were already there and I'm just

arriving. So, I have a couple other

specific questions about your workouts

because for my own interest and I know

many people will wonder for the

dedicated weight workouts. Are these

whole body workouts? And you said low

reps. Uh maybe you could just tell us

what low reps is for you and then the uh

seems like the the everpresent question

is to failure, close to failure. I mean,

um just to, you know, round out that

that portion of the of the workout

picture.

>> The workouts that I'm doing with my

strength training workouts with my

coach, you know, it it really depends.

Most of those workouts are they're

they're multi- joint workouts. So I am

most of the time doing you know some

either front squat, back squat or I'm

cleaning it as well, right? Which

obviously the lake the weight goes down

if I'm doing if I'm cleaning it cuz it's

hard to clean. It's also the hard like

it's the thing that I hate doing the

most.

>> Cleans.

>> Oh yeah. cleans with front squat because

it's really hard and for me I mean for

others who've been doing it for years

I'm sure it's like you know they love it

but for me it's very hard. I've only

been doing clean since, you know,

February 2024.

So, I'm pretty new to it. And so, it's

mentally like I have to overcome that

challenge. Which, by the way, once I

started doing all this sort of weight

training, I've always been an endurance

junkie. Like I like I used to like go

long runs and you know, races and stuff

like that. So, for me, that's like my

safe spot, right? That's what comes easy

to me. uh weight training and resistance

training, strength training, definitely

not something that I've done my whole

life. I'm so glad that I started doing

it, but very very challenging for me.

And so I would say the biggest effect

was on my brain and the ability to

handle stress better

>> where it was like unbelievable cuz it

was so hard and I I just didn't want to

do these cleans, you know, and and and

these front squats. Um and then the rest

of my day was not as hard. And that to

me was like the biggest surprise for

this type of training. But anyway, so um

I do a variety of um if I'm doing if I'm

going heavier then it you know depends.

Sometimes I'll start off it's like okay

we start off we do five reps and then we

go down to four and then we go down to

three and then we go down to one. Right.

>> You're doing singles.

>> We do. Mhm. I Yeah. Yeah. And that's the

hardest. It's the hardest.

>> But then there's there's like my coach

like it's just one. It's just one. You

know, sometimes we'll do like six, five,

and then we do four twice and then we do

three twice, right? And so it all

depends, you know, also on the day

there's some days where I'm just like,

you know, can we do lower reps and like

lighter weight, right? Where I'm just

like it's this is the day for me. I I'm

I'm stressed. I'm not I'm not here. Like

so you kind of have to modify your

workout, right? According to how you

feel that day. Um, but I would say that

those the majority of my strength

training workouts are or deadlifting.

You know, I love deadl dead deadlifting.

I think I'm pretty good at at pulling

that weight up, lifting that weight up.

>> A straight bar, hex bar.

>> I do a straight bar script. There's so

many variables.

>> Straight bar, straight bar. And um it's

the same deal with that. Like most of

the time with strength training, we'll

do, you know, we start off at like five

or six and then work our way down. And

then I I usually do a drop set after,

you know, any of those sessions where

I'll do 10 and then it's like a lot

lighter, right?

>> So those those are typically my strength

training sessions or multi- joint.

Sometimes I'll do accessory sessions,

you know, where I'm working. I do, you

know, the dips

>> um or

the Bulgarian, you know, the Bulgarian

split squats. I mean, just the accessory

stuff that you're working the like

smaller stabilization muscles and stuff

like that. I love that you call

Bulgarian split squats accessory,

smaller muscles. For a lot of people,

that's the compound work, which is just

I have to say I I'm inside I'm just like

so delighted because I mean obviously uh

weight training is something that's

caught on broadly for men and women now.

But I don't know many women, and I know

they're out there, but I don't know many

women who are uh working down to singles

on multi- joint, like real mult multi-

joint, like you know, deadlifts, cleans.

I know they're out there, but it's not

that common to see in gyms. And uh this

is going to no doubt spark a debate

because you know some of the older

slightly orinary but very credentialed

strength training folks have been online

recently saying that as people um past

35 that they shouldn't do squats that

they shouldn't do deadlifts and

certainly shouldn't do them heavy

because it is because of this whole

thing of you know you can do higher reps

and can go to failure and still get

hypertrophy. But what I love is that

you're not necessarily talking about

hypertrophy. Maybe some hypertrophy, but

this is about strength. This is about

building more strength and triples and

doubles and singles.

>> That's awesome.

>> It's hard. It's so hard. And it's the

part that I I'm like all about. Let's

like the last 30 minutes where it's hit

and that's hard. It's a different kind

of hard,

>> but for me the strength training is the

hardest. And there's definitely a mental

component, right, where I do not want to

do it. It's like you talk about with

cold plunging, right? like you you just

it's so unpleasant and you don't want to

do it and like you do it and it's like

that mental toughness that you're

building right I that's what I

experience when I'm doing these you know

strength training exercises that I'm

doing and and I don't know if it's going

to get easier maybe it will hasn't yet I

still I still dread it but I do it and

uh I'm proud of myself for doing it but

it is it's definitely hard and I am

getting stronger I think mentally and

obviously physically as Well, but um

have to add in the aerobic as well

though. I think that's really important.

>> That's your base. Yeah, you love it.

>> I love it. And I do think

cardiorespiratory fitness is very

important, you know, for for long-term

health as well as, you know, obviously

building muscle and strength.

>> Well, on the one hand, I want for you as

a friend to for you to hate the heavy

work less. On the other hand, I don't

because of this literature. I'm sure

you're familiar with it, but uh the

anterior mids singulate cortex, this

brain area that is hyperlastic

throughout the lifespan, which is rare

for a brain area and it enlarges um when

we do things we don't want to do. I

mean, it's so clear it's not just about

doing hard things about it's about doing

the hard thing you hate.

>> And and for you that sounds like the the

heavy compound movements for me. Yeah. I

don't like the cold plunge, which is why

I do it. I don't think it's magic. I

just think it's a it's a surefire

stimulus that I hate to make get

mentally stronger. And I think um having

something that you really despise that

you know is good for you seems to keep

this anterior midsulate cortex volume

either increasing or the same. And

that's actually the thing in these

so-called super aers that is the

strongest anatomical coralate that we

have. So on the one hand I hope it gets

easier on the other hand for your sake I

hope it doesn't get easier because it's

still it's going to be so much more

beneficial. I have a coach who can tell

when it's getting easier and she will

definitely up the weight.

>> I I I mean it keeps I mean it keeps

going up and so it doesn't it it gets

easier in a sense but it doesn't right.

>> So I mean I think that's that's the

whole point is you're building strength

and you keep

>> making it heavier and it becomes harder

again because now it's heavier.

>> Awesome.

>> But um and I haven't gotten injured so

that's also you know knock on wood.

>> Yeah. No, knock on wood. Um, thank you

for rounding out that picture. It's

super inspiring for men and women, you

know. So,

>> it's not easy to post on social media

because obviously I'm a newbie, so I

have all sorts of, you know, things that

I can ways I can improve, but I'm

posting it, you know.

>> Well, and the fact that you're working

down into triples, doubles, and singles,

I think is um something that I'm trying

to do more of. And I think um this

notion that you can get hypertrophy with

higher reps if you take it to failure.

Sure. I I totally agree. Read the

studies. totally agree with the data,

but not everything is about hypertrophy.

I think that's what people forget. It's

not all about growing muscle. Um, NVO2

max, which is great, but it's just it's

not all about um the top contour. And I

what I love about the way you approach

everything is you're you go through

multiple layers of of the the health

stratus as it were. This probably a good

opportunity to talk about protein

because I have a very specific question

about protein. We all hear one gram of

quality protein per pound of body weight

or lean body weight. sort of what we're

kind of what's thrown at us. By doing

the heavier weight training, do you

notice that your protein appetite has

increased? Like appetite specifically

for protein foods?

>> I don't know that I have. You know, I

interestingly have been doing a little

bit more intermittent fasting in which

you know people think about intermittent

fasting, they think about it as just one

thing, one intervention. I think it's

two. there's a behavioral aspect to it

where it's a tool to sort of lower the

amount of calories you're taking in. The

other one would be this metabolic

switch. But so I've actually since I

don't know September, maybe last

September of 2025 been been doing more

intermittent fasting. And what I mean by

that is just really just eating less.

And um the reason for that is because I

noticed that everything that I was doing

which was you know I'm I eat healthy I

exercise a lot and yet I was sort of

gaining more fat in the the belly

section right the visceral fat and the

only thing that really helped me stop

that put the put the brakes on was

getting more in a caloric deficit. Um,

so

maybe my drive to do that kind of is

skewing whether or not my appetite for

protein would go up. But I personally am

on the scale of 1.2 to 1.6 g per

kilogram body weight, which

>> per kilogram

>> per kilogram, which is probably a little

bit less than the pound.

>> You know, it's it's a kind of a

throwaway statement. gram of quality

protein um as defined as something with

you know lots of the essential amino

acids and uh uh so forth per pound or

per lean pound of body mass which is

something I think I and many other

people shoot for but I'm curious how

religious you are about the you know

getting a certain protein amount or per

meal

>> basically it wasn't working for me in

terms of like I was really trying to get

aim for like the higher end of the for

me you know 1.6 six grams per kilogram

body weight or even a little bit above

that. And what I found what was

happening is that I was actually getting

gaining more weight because I think I

was consuming more calories at the same

time is if you're getting it from whole

foods, right? Like that's just kind of

naturally going to happen. Uh and so I

had to slide down. Um but I'm still I'm

still like I said, I'm still getting

within that range of like probably on

average maybe 1.3 1.4 g per kilogram

body weight. And it's really it's really

worked well for me. But like people are

different and you have different goals,

right? You know, like I'm gaining muscle

mass and I feel like all my training is

like the most important thing. And I

think that we need

>> generally speaking, I think people

should become more obsessed with

training and less obsessed with protein.

Like the protein will complement the

training. And as you mentioned, if

you're training perhaps your appetite

for protein will increase and so you'll

start to eat, you know, more protein and

less refined carbohydrates. I already

wasn't eating a lot of refined

ultrarocessed foods in the first place.

>> Probably not the answer you were

expecting, but

>> it's it's really u for me like I I just

focusing on getting more protein was was

not working for my body um in terms of

but then again I'm 47 years old. You

know that per menopause phase very

different than someone who's 37 maybe.

>> I don't know the answer to that. But I I

um I do know that I hear from more and

more people these days that they are

having a hard time getting that one gram

of protein per pound of body weight. It

feels like a lot to them is what they're

saying. They feel like they're kind of

forcing themselves to do it.

>> You shouldn't feel that way.

>> Exactly. So, I'm actually really pleased

with your answer. Not because I have an

agenda here, but because I and many

other people seem to feel like unless

there's a lot of resistance training or

tremendous demands like hiking, you

know, while backpacking where if you

burn tons of calories, you're carrying

you're basically rocking like 9 hours a

day, right? That um they have a hard

time getting that much protein down. Um

and I think that's also the case if

people are eating starches. Like I eat

rice and oatmeal and some breads and

things like that. Not a lot of bread,

but you know, it sounds like you eat

starches.

>> I do eat oatmeal, too. It does satiate

you these days because I really kind of

more focused a little bit on I I did

want to calorically restrict somewhat

without, you know, being unhealthy.

Obviously, you can take every stressor

to a bad unhealthy place, right? You

don't want to starve yourself. You don't

want to like not eat enough food. But,

um, my my meals are mostly like healthy

protein. So, I have homemade turkey

burgers. eat a lot of I eat a lot of

those and then I eat chicken, you know,

I pasture-raised chicken. I do I do

still eat wild Alaskan salmon and then

I'll um also mix in some like filet

minion like I like grass-fed steak as

well.

>> Yum.

>> Those are my protein sources. And always

I pair it with greens. So or like some

sort of vegetable. Most of the times

it's it's greens because they're the

most most micronutrient dense. And so

these days I'm eating a lot of sauteed

collard greens that are like

pre-prepared has garlic and onion and

I'll put that, you know, have that with

my meal or I'll have some, you know,

sauteed kale. Sometimes I'll have a

salad with it, but the portions are

smaller. And like I said, I I also do a

little bit of intermittent fasting. We

can talk about that as well, but that's

kind of these days what I'm doing for my

meals. I haven't eaten as much.

Sometimes I'll eat the high protein

oats. They have those high protein oats

that have you have you seen those? No, I

eat oatmeal, but I I like protein foods.

I like vegetables. I like fruit. I feel

very lucky to like those foods mainly.

And then the starch for me has to be

very clean. I like oatmeal, rice,

>> homemade pastas I'll eat. Like if I go

out, I'll have sometimes I'll have some

homemade pasta or a sourdough bread or

something. But I find that most starches

that are out there in the world have a

bunch of other junk in them. And I just

feel lousy, get kind of sleepy

afterwards. So I uh so it sounds like we

eat pretty similarly although I probably

eat more starches than you do.

>> It's the more processed types of

carbohydrates that as you mentioned it's

like you typically you don't feel good

after you eat them and you know part of

that's the post prenial inflammatory

response because some of those foods are

a little more inflammatory. I mean a lot

of additives and stuff that are

affecting the gut gut permeabilization

you're leaking lipopolyaccharide into

the bloodstream right that's activating

the immune system. We used to inject I

don't do any animal experiments anymore

and I'm actually grateful to not do

them. So I didn't like working on

animals but it was what we did until I

decided to work on humans. But we used

to inject LPS

um to stimulate an inflammatory response

to kind of prime a regeneration response

that you could get through macrofasages

and things like that. And so LPS is a

very potent way to generate local or

even systemic inflammation. I think um

hearing that some starches will

stimulate LPS that's uh interesting.

Squares with my experience. I'm not

challenging. No, no, no. I'm I'm not

challenging. It squares with my

experiences. I'm one of these I never

get stomach aches. I never get

headaches. If I do, something's badly

wrong with my stomach or my head. But if

I eat certain starches, I'll be like,

"Oh, like I feel lousy and I'm wondering

if it's this."

>> So, we have about a gram of LPS in our

gut. Like that's on average because you

know lipopolyaccharide is the outer

component of the cell membrane of gram

negative bacteria right yeast

>> we have a lot of bacteria in our gut

gram negative bacteria right trillions

of bacteria in our gut so um when when

we eat food typically like our gut

epithelial cells they we have a tight

junction that's holding them together

when we eat food they transiently open

and then close like it's kind of a

normal response right

>> um the the I would say the opposite end

of the spectrum of that would be like

celiac where they eat gluten or

something, it opens up and stays open

and so you get like a ton of LPS leakage

into the system which causes massive

inflammation.

>> It just happens with meals in general.

You do get somewhat of a LPS response

from a meal. Now, the type of meal does

matter. So, when I when I say

>> refined carbohydrates, it's not

necessarily like healthy, you know,

carbohydrates like vegetables. It's like

you're eating something that is refined

sugar typically with saturated fat. So

those types of foods really cause like

LPS response. You know, it's it's it's

inflammation. It's bad. It's hard on the

gut. But the postprandial inflammatory

response essentially is that LPS getting

into the system activating the immune

system which draws the energy. I mean,

it's like it's very energy consuming to

activate your immune system, right?

Which why that's why when you're sick,

you're so sleepy, too, right? Well,

there's also cytoines that are sologenic

and promoting sleep, but like activating

your immune system requires a ton of

energy. And so when you're constantly

activating the immune system, you know,

that's an energy sink, right? And so you

do feel tired. And that's why a lot of

times after a meal, you're feeling kind

of lethargic.

>> Do protein foods uh of the sort that you

listed off before um do they cause less

uh opening of the tight junctions of the

gut? I think the the the big deal with

the the opening of the tight junctions

in the gut is, you know, I mean, eating

eating a big meal will do it. Eating a

very like ultrarocessed food meal will

do it.

>> Interestingly enough, just eating a

bunch of saturated fat without a fiber

matrix. So like like butter, you're just

like eating butter. Don't ever do that.

But like if you just eat butter,

>> that's been shown. My niece when she was

little, now she's all grown up, but when

she was little, I uh I taught her how to

eat like a little bit of KY Gold butter

and she loved it. So then we would do

this thing where we'd we do that. Um we

won't do that anymore.

>> I mean, a little bit's fine, but like

I'm I mean there's there's studies

showing that it does like saturated fat

is hard on the gut.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I said, it's a sliding scale. Like

meals in general do it, but it's like

you would it's like you would think the

healthier foods that you're eating like

whole foods, you're getting less of that

LPS response. And then of course there's

gluten and that complicates the whole

story especially for people that are

celiac right because that's

>> which is a small percentage of people

are actually celiac right but a lot of

people seem to believe and I believe

them that when they eat gluten they feel

worse than when they don't eat gluten

>> I'm sure there's some people that are

sensitive to gluten that do feel worse

and then I'm sure some of that's the

noibo effect right that's been shown

with gluten in in particular did you

have you seen that study where people

there's been so so there were people

that think they're, you know, glut

gluten sensitive. And so they were

enrolled in this study and um these

individuals were separated into two

groups. One group was getting given the

gluten bread with gluten and the other

group was given the bread without

gluten. And the people that were given

the bread without gluten had a terrible,

you know, abdominal like they were

bloated. They felt terrible. I mean, it

was all and there was no gluten in the

actual bread, but they thought there

was. So it was thought that there's a

noibo effect where it's like the

opposite of a placebo effect where you

just you you've got that phenotype where

you think things negative are going to

happen and you can make them happen. You

can change your immune system, you can

change your brain signaling and you know

so probably a combination of both with

that regard

>> in addition to like the lethargy. So

we're I was talking about in the context

that's why it sparked my you know

interest is like you were talking about

feeling tired after a meal and I do

think that is part of that reason for

feeling sleepy but you know what's

interesting about LPS you talked about

injecting it into mice and I've also

done experiments injecting LPS into

mice. There have been studies where

people have been injected with an amount

of LPS that is, you know, similar to

what you would find your gut releasing

into your bloodstream or a placebo

control, which in this case was saline.

And individuals that were injected with

the LPS, high amounts of inflammatory

markers like TNF alpha, I mean, we're

talking like up to 50% increase

>> o over baseline, right? So high amounts

of inflammation, which makes sense. LPS

is activating the immune your immune

system is like there's a foreign

invader, right? It's not a foreign

invader. It's just the food you ate that

caused transient gut permeability.

>> And those individuals also feel

depressive symptoms and feelings of like

social withdrawal. So the inflammation

is affecting the brain, right? These

inflammatory factors are getting the

brain, crossing the bloodb brain barrier

and affecting the way we feel. And we

know now that inflammation plays a big

role in major depressive disorder and

depression. Not in all cases, but

there's a subset, right, where it's

really like it does. It seems to play a

big role. In fact, interestingly,

there's been some studies showing that

people that are that don't respond to

SSRIs are have very high amounts of C

reactive protein. So, this was the

biomarker for a classical biomarker for

inflammation. I would argue it's not

that sensitive, but nonetheless, it is a

biomarker for inflammation. And so,

people that um don't respond to SSRIs

have high amounts of inflammation, which

kind of raises this question of is there

like this subset of depression that's

really inflammatory driven, right? Um

interesting. So, so the LPS is affecting

not only our our energy levels but also

our mood.

>> And then you know there's there's also

evidence that so we know that LPS

binds to LDL particles through lipid

lipid interactions. And in fact,

it's kind of part of the adaptive

response. It's why you don't want to

ever go get your cholesterol measured

like after right after you're sick or

had a very stressful event, something

that causes inflammation because you

will increase VLDL production increases

and LDL production increases and it's

sort of an adaptive response to bind

that LPS to prevent it from you know

causing more damage and so it actually

binds to LDL particles on the apo

protein. So apo B is a protein that is

on these lipoproteins and it's a a very

important protein because that is what's

used by the LDL receptors present on our

liver to recycle LDL particles. And so

what happens is these these LPS

particles are now bound to you know our

our lipoproteins and our lipoproteins

are still doing their function right

they're going around and they're they're

they're giving you know triglycerides

and and fatty acids and to some degree

cholesterol to our cells that need it

right we're constantly making new cells

and repairing and we our cells need that

as they donate triglycerides and fatty

acids they get smaller in size the

lipoproteins you probably heard of small

dense LDL right like that's a very

dangerous type of LDL article and that's

one that's kind of been donating along

getting rid of tro triglycerides and um

whatever if you think about a train with

cargo it's donating the you know

dropping off the cargo and so um when

it's time to get recycled back into the

liver what do you know the apo proteins

obscured by that LPS and it's not

recycled and so it gets lodged into the

arterial wall and because there's an LPS

bound to this you know small dense LDL

particle

macrofasages which are as you mentioned

it's like the first line of defense

against something like a bacterial

invader right it comes and chews it up

right gets rid of the problem so

macrofasages come in because they're

seeing this signal of LPS and think it's

a foreign invader when it's actually

just a small dense LDL particle bound to

LPS that came from the gut tries to

engulf it but it can't because it's not

bacteria and you get the macrofase stuck

to that

>> lipoprotein LPS you know complex and you

get the formation of a foam cell. You

probably heard of a foam cell. It's the

beginning of atheroscerosis. And so this

is where gut health and the food we eat

is sort of it's linked to cardiovascular

health, right? Gut permeability, getting

that LPS into our circulation. It's

actually not a very good thing because

you're you're basically, you know, slow

dripping in that inflam inflammation,

that inflammatory signal and it's

wreaking havoc in our arteries, on our

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one.com/huberman

to get six free travel packs and a

bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your

subscription. Thank you for explaining

that so clearly because I don't think

anyone has ever explained how exactly

gut health is signaling cardiovascular

health or pushing or pulling down on or

raising cardiovascular health. As a

neuro guy, I think about the vagus nerve

as the primary conduit between gut and

brain and it I was recalling that LPS

injected into the gut is how you

actually experimentally induce a fever

because the and if you cut the Vegas no

fever. So there's this there seems to be

something about the way that the gut

communicates with with the brain and

other organs that is critically

dependent on the uh some threshold level

of of of LPS. And thank you also for

reminding us that LPS is present in the

gut because we have yeast in our gut,

some amount of of yeast. You mentioned

tight junctions and the way I think

about tight junctions, please correct me

because I'm going to get some or all of

this wrong, is that essentially uh they

form like a a cellar fence in the gut

and that transient opening or partial

opening of these is a normal process.

But it sounds like after a meal some

bacteria when you say leaks out into our

system, it's literally going into the

bloodstream. So now we have bacteria

circulating and if some of that is small

enough to get across the bloodb brain

barrier that's another way that bacteria

can start to cause inflammation at the

at the brain level.

>> It's LPS which is like the outer

component of bacteria that have died.

>> Um actual live bacteria getting in. I

don't know as much about that perhaps as

well, but I know that the LPS is getting

in and I do know that the LPS, you know,

activating the immune system and stuff

and the resident gal cells and stuff in

the in the brain um does break down the

bloodb brain barrier. It's like the

early like we know neuroinflammation

is really some of the early parts of

breaking down of the bloodb brain

barrier which is the early stages of

neurodeenerative disease. it is how the

gut is gut health is linked to the brain

and to neurogenerative disease as well.

So, um it's the inflammation I think

that's really um it's it's really

powerful in terms of it's it's a driver

of the aging process in general like

this inflammation inflammaging you've

you've heard of inflammaging you know I

think I think now it's pretty clear to

me that is if you're thinking about the

molecular events that are leading to

these hallmarks of aging which lead to

the phenotypes and you know frailty and

the diseases right like type two

diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease,

like go upstream of that and the

inflammation is at the core of it. And

so we hear this word inflammation a lot

and it's like what does it mean? You

know, and it's a lot it means a lot of

things. It's not just the gut. The gut

is a a component of it, but there's

other things as well, right? I mean, you

can have stress, um, you know, any

emotional stress like that can lead to

inflammation. Um, not getting enough

sleep, right? There's a lot of things

that can that can lead to inflammation

and um so it is kind of an important

point to think about is is really like

trying to have your inflammation low,

right? And how do you do that?

>> I'm going to take three different

jumping off points here, all related to

what you said. So, um don't think I'm a

random uh subject generator here. We

will get back to fasting, I promise.

Lately, you've posted a bit about

glutamine as a potential tool to perhaps

buffer the immune system under times of

stress. I've also been interested in uh

llutamine as a way to reinforce tight

junctions in the gut. I don't know if

that literature is robust or not. I have

to say I started taking llutamine years

ago in times when I was working a lot,

not sleeping enough because someone told

me it would help me not get sick. And

indeed, I didn't get sick as much as the

imaginary control experiment that I

never got to do. Meaning, I don't know

if it helped or not, but I continue to

take uh llutamine uh when I'm feeling

run down. I take a couple of other

things, too. But could you tell us about

how or if or how llutamine is important

for gut health and if and how elutamine

might be helpful for reinforcing the

immune system? There's not a ton of

evidence in terms of like what's in the

scientific literature supporting these

statements, but there is some, you know,

and it's enough to kind of go, well, I'm

going to try to maybe experiment with

it. So, you know, I first became

interested in in glutamine because when

I was doing my graduate research, I was

doing a lot of cancer metabolism studies

and I would do nutrient withdrawal and I

would, you know, remove glucose from

cancer cells and see what would happen.

And it's like, okay, well, I would get I

would remove glucose from from, you

know, lymphoma, cancer cells in the

petri dish, and a lot of them would die,

but they wouldn't all die. And it was

like, why aren't they all dying? Turns

out, well, they had glutamine there. So,

glutamine was enough to sustain them.

Um, and and so glutamine can be

converted into many things. So,

glutamine can be an amino acid, right?

It's amino acid. Glutamine can be

converted into the um the KB cycle. So

it can be converted into intermediates

that are used to make energy by the

mitochondria and glutamine can be

converted into glutamate, right?

Neurotransmitter, right? So there's a

lot of pathways and different fates for

glutamine. So I um became interested in

in that because it was like oh

glutamine's important for the survival

of these cancer cells. Um then I was

doing a lot of activating immune cell

studies as you know my my graduate

adviser uh is an immunologist by

training and so I was also doing that.

Turns out glutamine was essential for

the activation of immune cells. So that

was kind of always in the background of

my mind. And then in my postto I did my

postto with Dr. Bruce Ames and my

colleague Dr. Mark Shaganaga was doing a

lot of gut work and this is why I know a

lot about the LPS and the gut like it's

from him like brilliant guy. He's now a

photographer, like not in science at

all, but brilliant guy and did a lot of

really amazing experiments looking at,

you know, gut permeability and things

that can help buffer, you know, gut

permeability. And one of those things

were glutamine. So glutamine can get

converted into these intermediates that

are used by mitochondria in the gut

epithelial cells. And so that's like an

easy source of energy as well for the

gut. Now, these are all animal studies,

right? So take it with a grain of salt,

right? cuz at some point, you know, in

my in my opinion, animal studies are are

really important for understanding the

mechanism behind why things work and we

need human studies, you know, as well.

Looking at the totality of evidence is

important. It's the human studies that

were lacking. There's not a ton of them

there. The ones that I have found more

compelling, um, not necessarily, I mean,

with the gut health, it's it's, you

know, it's sparse with humans. um I

found more compelling with respect to

glutamine and human studies was the

immune system. And this is where I

started putting connecting the dots,

right? Where I started coming across

this literature of these endurance

athletes who do get a higher amount of

respiratory tract infections, you know,

like when I mean endurance athletes, I

mean these guys that are like outr

running marathons all year. Like they're

just constantly training for a marathon,

right?

>> And so they're really like they're

putting a lot of demand, right?

energetic expenditure is happening at a

really high rate. So, um they are

they're more prone to respiratory

infections. And there's a few studies

out there showing that if these athletes

take a higher dose of glutamine, I think

it's like 30 grams or something high

like that, that they had a lower

incidence of respiratory tract

infections than ones that weren't doing

it. And then I went back to my, oh, I

know that glutamine is really important

for T- cell activation. And I was like,

I'm going to take this because being

being a being a mom and having a child

that's bringing everything home like a

vector, you know, you're like desperate.

You're the experiment.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And I never used to get

sick ever. Like I would never get sick.

And then all of a sudden I was getting

sick like three times a year and I was

like, do I have cancer? Like what's

going on? Like I I literally was like

worried. Um and and then I started

taking glutamine. Now, I take it just I

only take five grams on a daily basis,

but if if my son's sick, if there's any

exposure, if it's like during the

season, if I'm traveling, I go up to 15.

I go up to 20

>> at once because it can be a little hard

on the gut, right?

>> Not all at once. Not all at once. I

usually do it like in fives. So, I do

five grams, five grams, five grams. And,

you know, I have to with a caveat of I

do that, but I also take a lot of

creatine as well. And so, I don't know

which one or both,

>> but like I really don't get sick. I'm

not getting sick and even even if it's

brought home in my house, I'm not

getting sick. And maybe it's a placebo

and you know what, I am a-ok okay with

that because placebo effect is real as

long as I'm not getting sick. Um, so I

do think I think with the glutamine, you

know, it's not something that I would

feel comfortable saying that it's

there's a lot of evidence. It's

overwhelming and with confidence that

it's improving gut health and it's

improving immune, you know, it's going

to help give your immune cells energy

particularly if they need to be

activated, you know, upon exposure to

any pathogen. But I feel like it's worth

experimenting with. Um perhaps maybe if

someone has colon cancer, that would be

more of a concern because I did mention

that cancer cells, cancer cells love

everything, anything that's good for

you, right? Folate, I mean, if you don't

have enough folate, you can cause double

stranded breaks to your DNA which lead

to mutations that lead to cancer. But if

you have cancer and you take a bunch of

folate, you need folate to make new DNA

and so they like the folate, right? So

it's like

>> it's an abnormal growth. So, anything

that's associated with drug mtor I saw

the recent study on torine which scared

a lot of people because torine's in a

lot of energy drinks but that was an in

vitro study. Um

>> yes I was going to ask you know um it is

there increased cancer risk if you're

supplementing with glutamine because

cancer cells like glutamine.

>> So my personal opinion I'm obviously not

a medical physician. This is not a

prescription. It's just my opinion. I I

personally am not scared of getting

cancer from taking glutamine.

If I had a colon tumor and a tumor in my

colon, the the first site that the

glutamine is seeing maybe the liver as

well since that's also the next step.

But uh barring like having a tumor

already in my liver or in my colon,

those would be the only, you know, types

of situations that I would be worried

about taking glutamine. I don't think

it's going to cause cancer. Right now, I

guess the question is like what if you

don't know you have?

>> Well, hopefully the cost will come down

on whole body MRIs. actually the cost is

coming down on whole body MRIs that

hopefully more people are able to get

those. It's not just such a high-end

exclusive thing in the near future. Kind

of like blood draws used to be like like

panels of blood testing. You only got

them if you really needed them. Now the

cost of blood draws is really low,

right?

>> So hopefully uh people will be more

aware.

>> Yeah, I I

will take a tablespoon of glutamine once

or twice or three times a day if I'm

feeling run down. You mentioned being

exposed to pathogens from vectors of

different sorts. Before we went on,

Mike, we were talking about Knack an

acetylcysteine. Um, I take it once a day

uh consistently, but I'll take it three

times a day if I'm traveling a lot

because I'm around sick people when I

travel, especially in winter. Um, or if

I feel like I'm getting run down. And

there the data are pretty interesting.

There's at least one study showing that

it reduced flu transmission um where

people were deliberately exposed to flu.

I think it took the number of people

that contracted flu compared to the

placebo group somewhere from the high

70%

area. I'm don't remember the exact

number now. We'll put a link to the

study down to maybe high 20s which is

pretty impressive. And an ER doc came on

this podcast uh Roger Schwelt who um and

said he was a big proponent of of

analysteine for people that are around

sick people.

>> Do you take knack? So my only concern

with taking on a daily basis is it is a

pretty powerful antioxidant

>> and you know

>> I think that we need to understand like

antioxidants

and the opposite which should be

generating oxidation right like

>> it's not it's not like oxidation is bad

it's bad when it's constant slow drip

oxidation that's damaging you know other

parts of our body DNA proteins lipids

some oxidation you want like if you're

exercising right there's a burst of

oxidation

>> to get the adaptation

>> to get the adaptations and so my concern

would be for one maybe timing it around

your exercise so not taking it close to

when you're exercising and these studies

come out of you know studies that have

been done with highdose vitamin E plus

vitamin C I haven't seen a lot of

vitamin C studies alone that are

blunting exercise adaptations there's

maybe one at a high dose most of the

time it's vitamin C and vitamin E

vitamin E alpha tcopherol when I say

high dose Usually it's 400 IUs. Just to

give you a reference point, the RDA is

like 24 IUs or something. So we're

talking

>> But a supplement can be 200 to 800. So

it wouldn't be hard to blunt that

exercise effect by accidentally. Yeah. I

don't take vitamin E. It spiked my

prostate specific antigen, which I was

told is a is a known effect among

urologists.

>> The select trial was done. So the select

trial was um was looking at selenium and

vitamin E and if it could slow the

progression of prostate cancer and it

turned out that um the opposite was

found and it was really kind of due to

this high dose of alpha tcopherol which

also has other effects of um lowering

another type of vitamin E in the body

called gamma tcopherol which is

anti-inflammatory and I think that has

something to do with inflammation

actually can increase the PSA right

>> so anyways Um, the point here is that

with Knack, my only concern would be,

you know, blunting the the oxidation

that you're getting from beneficial

because I know you're highly active.

>> I'm training hard. I don't want my train

to be shortcircuited from Knack. I'm

perfectly happy to only take Knack if

I'm feeling run down or exposed to um

illnesses around me where I feel like

that's when I take it, but it's mostly

because of I wasn't familiar with the

flu influenza data. That's interesting.

I was just it's good for lung health too

like so although if smokers take it I

think it has the opposite effect where

again it's like the can the the

precancerous cells are using it to their

benefit you know we used to think

antioxidants oh it's so good you know

just more more more and it turns out

it's not the case right like and that's

why a lot of these other types of

hormetic stressors or plant

phytochemicals they're actually

generating an antioxidant response

endogenously in our body by activating

these antioxidant pathways which are so

much more powerful than what you would

get from an antioxidant, right? And so

that's kind of it's not that you don't

want some antioxidants, it's just like

you don't want to overdose on taking too

much knack and too much vitamin C and

too much vitamin E because there's also

something called reductive stress. So we

know about oxidative stress. Oxidative

stress is when you're, you know, you're

you're again, you're causing these these

reactive oxygen species to damage things

like your DNA, for example, and over

time eventually that happens in a part

of the gene that can be encogenic and

lead to cancer. Well, reductive stress

is is like the opposite of that. So,

it's like too much of the um reducing

equivalents like the, you know, the

NADH, the NADPH, the you know, so and it

also has negative effects. So you kind

of don't want to go too far on either

ends of the of the spectrum, but also

you want to instead of having this like

slow leaking effect of these prooxidants

where that are happening from eating a

bad diet, from you know inflammation,

things like that. You want it to be a

short burst where you switch it on, you

have the adaptation, it's off, right?

And the adaptation the adaptation

happens in the recovery period, right?

When you're, for example, if you

exercise, that's a big burst of reactive

oxygen species that is beneficial and

you want it, right? And you don't want

to blunt those adaptations. And so

that's that's kind of my concern with

daily dosing of Knack.

>> Great. I don't cold plunge in the 6 to8

hours after uh resistance training for

exactly the reason you're talking about.

Yeah. I want the inflammation. I want

the increased blood flow. I don't want

to short circuit that. I'm perfectly

happy to only take Knack under

conditions where I'm bit run down and

and that's also when I I'll take

glutamine. If you take llutamine

regularly, I I personally observe that I

get stronger um at a steady state of of

starch intake. And I don't like dropping

starches too low because I get weak.

>> Yeah.

>> And I also can't sleep as well if my

starches are too low. I just am too

wired.

>> Yeah. There's a there was a new study on

on eating starches and improving sleep.

>> Yeah. And I'm so grateful for that

because for several years I talked about

that on the podcast and people said,

"Oh, you know, he's gorging himself with

pasta and then passing out and that's

the worst time." I wasn't saying that.

I'm saying that if you're not if you're

running like crazy, I'll hear from

marathoners and ultra people when people

are doing a million things. They'll say,

"I'm not sleeping well." And they're

exercising like crazy. It's like, "Well,

when was the last time you had a bowl of

pasta?" Like, "Oh, no. I don't eat

pasta." And they're like, and then

they'll have some rice or some pasta.

Like, oh, I slept like a baby. And they

were having it at lunch. Yeah. And I

just think that the the brain doesn't

shut down well when you have high levels

of cortisol. And the cortisol starch

thing is an interesting one. I'm so glad

you brought this up because I think um

this is something I did want to talk

about really and it has to do with stop

eating 3 hours before bed for that very

reason. So there was a new even a new

stud but there's been several studies

now really showing that this is

important for that cardiovascular reset

right your parasympathetic activity is

supposed to go higher. You're in your

rest and recovery phase, right? When

you're eating food, that's the

sympathetic activity, right? You're

that's activating the sympathetic

nervous system

>> as you're eating. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And even as you're digesting. So,

you have to think about it like you

digest what it takes like five or so

hours to fully finish about depending on

the meal.

>> Depending on the meal, right? So if

you're eating, you know, right before

you go to bed, you are you are you are

not in that parasymp sympathetic

activity, you know, part of the part of

the, you know, cycle that you want to be

in. So um there was a new even a new

study that I shared like I don't know a

couple days ago even showing that if you

stop eating 3 hours before bed. So these

people were actually um it's interesting

there they had their blood pressure

measured for starting in the mid

afternoon all the way throughout the

night. This is the first study that

really not just one end point looking at

blood pressure but just me measuring it

continuously I don't know if it was

every 15 minutes or something like that

but um it was found that their during

sleep if they had stopped eating 3 hours

before bed versus the group that did not

stop eating 3 hours before bed their

blood pressure dipped like lower. So you

get that you that barrerow reflex

dipping right? So this is like part of

the parasympathetic activation as you

know very important for you the blood

pressure to go down. heart rate went

down like you know much much lower and

that reset is so so important for

cardiovascular health. I think what was

found was it was something like um

translated to like 20% lower risk of

cardiovascular events like heart

attacks. So it's really pretty

significant. Yeah. And it really is an

easy thing to do to think about stopping

eating you know 3 hours before you go to

bed. Like that's that's something I

think that is not that hard to implement

and it will improve your sleep as well

as your cardiovascular health. Although

I think in that study I don't know that

sleep was really it was subjective and I

don't think it really was improved more

but other studies have found that as

well that sleep does improve. I know

Satchin Panda he's been on my podcast

your podcast he's had studies showing

that it seemed like stop stop eating

three hours before bed really does seem

to improve sleep. But this

parasympathetic activation, you know,

you don't want to have a meal right

before your bed because you want you

want to be in the rest and recovery

part, right?

>> So,

>> yeah, I think people hear uh and I

understand why the nomenclature and the

buzzwords of, you know, fight or flight

for sympathetic and rest and digest for

parasympathetic, but yeah, the evidence

shows eating stimulates the sympathetic

nervous system. It's not a stress event,

but it it's a

>> it requires energy. Anything that

requires energy raises body temperature

and your body's doing work.

>> It's an awake event. It's an you don't

put it while you're sleeping.

>> Yeah. And that's why these phrases,

while I don't demonize anyone for

creating the, you know, fight or flight.

Well, I mean, there's ways that you want

your sympathetic nervous system to

activate that are not about fight or

flight. Like I actually think if people

just got the first hour of their day

more active and energized, bright light,

exercise, caffeine if you're me and Lord

knows I'm grateful that caffeine exists

in the first hour of the day or first

hours if you can't manage that because

of schedule and then the last hour of

the day was strongly parasympathetic. I

mean everything would get better without

having to think a ton about exactly how

you're doing that because on a given day

you just do what you can

>> and that's what you want, right? I mean

so cortisol is circadian dependent as

you know. I mean, in the like early

morning of early hours of the morning,

that's when you want it to peak, right?

The part of the awakening response, like

you want it to go up. And it's it's

interesting. I I the reason I'm going on

this is because it's a little bit of a

um soap box for me, but so with with the

with the cortisol activation, um people

don't realize this, you know, obviously

it's a hormone and it's binding to two

different receptors. There's the

gluccocorticoid receptor and then

there's the mineral ocorticoid receptor.

And both of those um when cortisol binds

to it, they go into the nucleus of the

cell and they're changing the

expression. So they're activating genes

and deactivating genes like 20% of the

human genome. It's a large percentage,

right? And this is on multiple different

organs. So it's it cortisol has a very

important role and you want that peak.

You want that spike, right? That's what

you want. And then you want it to shut

off. And there are things that can

activate it obviously like in the

morning going out bright light exposure

as you mentioned like that's very

important for that cortisol awakening

response but you can also like like

intensity intense exercise can switch it

on. Um, but what's interesting and so

can intermittent fasting

that it what's interesting is there's

studies from Mark Matson's lab showing

that you know the types of of of

stressors that are beneficial these

hormatic stressors like exercise like

you know intermittent fasting um perhaps

even cold exposure like these types of

exposures change the receptor density of

the receptors. So if you if you look at

what activates cortisol in a negative

way, chronic stress, let's say

emotional, financial, psychological, um

chronic sleep deprivation, right? That

bad type of stress, you're getting

you're not getting a big spike, you're

getting a slow drip of it. And so what

happens is when you have that type of

stress, you're increasing the

gluccocorticoid receptors and you're

decreasing the minocorticoid receptors.

There's a different biological response

in the brain, in the hypothalamus, but

also in, you know, other organs as well

when you're when you're activating

cortisol through a beneficial type of

stress, the hormatic stressors like like

intermittent fasting, like exercise. Um,

I believe probably deliberate cold

exposure as well where um it's a

different biological response. And also,

if you think about it, you know, you

actually want cortisol to do its, you

know, function. You want it to change

the expression of that's what it's

supposed to do, right? The problem is is

when you have that slow drip, then you