Ali Abdal. He's a creator, he's a

entrepreneur who came first at

Cambridge, and he's a productivity

expert. The way that I define

productivity is just kind of using my

time well and working on things that are

meaningful to me and optimizing for

happiness. I feel unproductive when I

know there is something I want to do and

I am not doing the thing

because I'm scrolling Instagram.

Procrastination is a problem with

getting started and so the key to

overcoming procrastination is that

little nudge at the start towards

actually getting started. There are a

few few hacks. The one that I use all

the time is the the two-minute rule. Two

minutes is all you need to change your

life.

The way I try and remind myself of this

point of I I am enough is thinking and

and really trying to internalize that

the journey is more important than the

destination. We do need a destination,

but really like am I enjoying myself

day-to-day and am I kind of living the

dream as it were day-to-day and not and

not so much worrying about the goal at

the end of it.

[Music]

Productivity, procrastination, two

things that all people aspiring to

success or really aspiring to get

anything done often struggle with.

Today, we're going to try and solve that

problem. Today, I'm joined by Ali Abdal.

He's a creator on YouTube, he's got

millions and millions of subscribers.

He's an entrepreneur, he's a Cambridge

graduate who came first at Cambridge,

and he's a productivity expert. And

honestly, he's read more books than

anyone I think I've ever met on the

subject but generally about how to

become the best version of yourself.

This conversation isn't just about

productivity and procrastination, it

ends up twisting and turning through a

bunch of different topics like

relationships and friendships and the

meaning of life and happiness.

But what else would you expect from this

podcast? You're going to enjoy this

conversation. Ali is an incredibly

intelligent, intellectual,

compassionate, self-aware individual and

he's able to talk in a way that

simplifies complex ideas for people like

me and you.

So without further ado,

my name is Steven Bartlett and this is

The Diary of a CEO.

I hope nobody's listening.

But if you are, then please keep this to

yourself.

[Music]

I really start here with all my guests

because I think it's so foundation

foundational to everything that they

then say thereafter is getting a bit of

context as to who you are, where you

came from, and the environment in which

Ali was created. Ooh, interesting

question.

Okay, so

um I was born in Karachi in Pakistan in

1994, so I'm 27 now.

And when I was 2 years old, my mom and

dad divorced and my mom moved us to

Lesotho in Southern Africa.

Uh it's a country most people haven't

heard of. It's surrounded by South

Africa, like landlocked by South Africa.

And we were there for about 5 6 years

growing up.

Uh at that point, you know, my mom

really valued education. She was working

as a doctor and she knew the educational

opportunities in Southern Africa in

Lesotho were not great. And so we made a

plan to move to the UK. So we came to

the UK in 2003. She started working here

as a doctor and we moved around a little

bit in different areas in the UK.

And it was really in in secondary school

uh that I did in Southend-on-Sea, Essex,

where I discovered kind of

entrepreneurship and the internet and

computers and stuff.

And basically all throughout school, I'd

be the kid getting like decent grades

and everything like that, but the thing

I like I would

I would look forward to going home so

that I could do some more coding or

tinker on some websites or try and show

my services as a freelance graphic

designer or something for $5 here and

there.

And I was making kind of you know, a

little bit of money. I I lied about my

age on PayPal. I pretended I was 18 when

I was actually like 13 and I was getting

like $5 from these small businesses here

and there and thinking, "Oh my god, I'm

I'm making money on the internet. This

is incredible."

And then as I went through school, me

and my friends, we were all quite

interested in the entrepreneurship

stuff. We were all we were doing like

well in school and I was like, "Oh, it

would be cool to go to Oxford or

Cambridge. It would be cool to do

medicine."

But really my passion at the time was

going home and and and tinkering with

websites.

And so that was kind of the environment

that I grew up in. Then when I went to

university, you know, thankfully I got a

place for medicine at Cambridge, which

was great, awesome experience. Just on

that point there, so you you were

tinkering on websites and loving it.

That's the thing you were like running

home from school to do.

Yeah. Um but then you go for medicine.

What was the driving force behind you

deciding not to do the tinkering on

websites for a living and going and

doing medicine? I mean, I you said there

that your mother was a doctor. Yeah, so

I think when you grow up in the sort of

environment that I did whereby

parents are doctors, all of my mom's

friends were doctors, everyone we knew

had like doctor parents,

there are so few viable careers where

you think, you know, what what are my

what are my job options in life? Well,

it's either doctor or lawyer or

engineer. Like it's literally just those

three. You don't even realize that other

jobs even exist. Not in like a

a way where the parents are telling you

this consciously, but more like just the

narrative that you absorb from the

people you're around is that I could be

a doctor or engineer or a lawyer.

Uh and so that was always in the back of

my mind that oh, it would be cool to be

a doctor one day.

And when I was around 16, I Can I ask

why?

Yeah.

I think because

doctor seemed like a prestigious thing.

And I think I I I remember even when I

was like 6 and 7 when people used to ask

me what I would want to be when I was

older, I used to say either a

neurosurgeon or a gastroenterologist,

not even knowing what that meant, but it

was just like a big word that would make

me feel cool that oh, yeah. And then the

adults that I would speak to would be

like, "Oh, hello. Fancy."

So that in and of itself, where does

prestige exist? One would assume that it

exists in the mind of others.

Like do you know what I mean? Like so

that's why I was I if you had said to

me, "I really want to save people's

lives. I would really had a real high

desire to like save lives and to do

that." Then I'd be like, "Okay, that's

the voice inside." But when when it's

like status, then it's

very much status and prestige. And

that's the thing that I think about to

this day

a lot about like now that I've taken a

break from medicine.

You know, often if I'm if I'm having

conversations with my mom, the she'll

try and talk me back into doing medicine

again.

Really? And one of her kind of

bargaining chips on that front is, "Oh,

but think about the prestige. You know,

medicine has a certain prestige around

it that being a YouTuber doesn't." And

that's always like, "Ooh." You know,

it's that that side of me that's like,

"Well, I want to carve my own path. I

don't I don't care about status and

status and prestige." And then there's

the other half where it's still like a

kind of a narrative going through my

life that I need to optimize for pres-

like this sort of old world prestige.

Instead of happiness. Instead of

happiness, yeah. Which is bizarre, isn't

it?

It's completely bizarre. Yeah, this is a

I was strange like cult It's a cultural

thing as well largely, I think with I

think with you know, my mom dropped out

of school when she was 7 years old. So

doctor, lawyer, anything with prestige

was the correct answer.

Yeah.

Um

maybe that's because and this is me just

guessing out loud, when you come from

when you're an immigrant family,

one of the actual biggest predictors of

hap- happiness was financial security.

And being a doctor like I said is like

maybe Yeah, I think I think that's a big

part of it where with my with our with

our parents' generation, especially

especially as immigrants,

seeing other people who are happy

correlated with other people who had

like a big house and like nice cars and

were going on holidays equa- equals

financial success equals oh, those

people did well in their traditional

career of banking or medicine or

engineer or law.

And the narrative of like someone like

you, entrepreneur, social media, big

company, that it just didn't it just

wasn't really a thing in our parents'

generation. And you said there like

going on holidays da da da da da. But I

think if in go back to my like the

village in Nigeria where my where my

mom's from,

having a good job was actually like

survival. It was like being able to eat.

It was like much more just

much lower things on Maslow's hierarchy

of needs. It was just like being able to

survive. And then not having a job and

an education was like pain from food, no

health care, no education. Um whereas in

as you say like in the Western world

when you grow up here, yeah, it means

Lamborghini and holiday and stuff, but

So you take that you take that

decision anyway driven by your

by an external narrative to go and

become a doctor. Uh ex- external I think

there was also partly an internal

narrative and I'm not sure how much of

this is me just bullshitting myself, but

when I was 16, I decide I made a

conscious decision, do I want to do

computer science and do the tinkering

with websites thing or do I want to do

medicine?

I think uh what I reasoned at the time

was was two things. Number one, medicine

is 6 years at university, computer

science is only three. Everyone says

university is great. Ergo, 6 years is

better than 3 years, therefore medicine

makes sense.

But the other thing that I thought was

that it would be more interesting for my

life to be a doctor who knows how to

code than to be a coder who knows how to

code.

And it was like really that decision

where I realized, "Okay, why don't I do

medicine, keep the coding website-y kind

of stuff on the side so that I can

eventually do some kind of tech startup

thing related to medicine." And then

medicine becomes this side hustle in a

way before I had the terminology of of

the phrase side hustle.

And so it ended up not quite working out

that way, but but certainly from my

first year of medical onwards, I knew

that I was not going to be a doctor

full-time. I was going to do medicine

for fun and I was going to make money on

the side through a tech

startup or or something like that. And

did you try tech startup? Uh a little

bit. So in my first year of uni I second

year of uni, I started a company that

helped other kids get into med school.

And then so that was like in-person

courses, but then eventually because me

and my brother knew how to code, we

turned this into a software online

question bank for the different med

school admissions programs.

And so that would that was a sort of

like, you know, subscription billing

software as a service kind of product,

uh which was the closest I got to a tech

startup. I I dabbled with a few like

medical tech things. I used to do

freelance app design and web design for

med tech startups while I was at while I

was at uni.

But when the YouTube channel started and

that really started taking off, I sort

of realized that

the thing I actually want to do is is

teaching rather than coding. Um and then

something something that you talk about

in the book is kind of reflecting on

your life and figuring out what are your

values, what is the thing that you have

that intrinsic motivation for.

And for me, I always had that intrinsic

motivation for business type stuff and

also for teaching. Uh I used to do

tutoring when I was like from the age of

13 up until now.

And those were the times where I felt

most alive in a way where I was teaching

someone else.

Um and the nice thing about being a

YouTuber is that it's just teaching at

scale.

And so I think I found that thing that

drives me intrinsically.

Um and that So now tech startup is is

sort of a oh, backup option if YouTube

channel fails, if I get struck off the

medical register,

I can probably start a tech startup or

or words to that effect. I always find

it a little bit weird that someone would

just like go on YouTube and make a

video.

You know what I mean? Like that first

when you hear about the first time when

these big YouTubers started, whether

it's like True Geordie who I've spoken

to here or Alfie Deyes who I think

became like the biggest one of the

biggest YouTubers in the country. Like

that first decision

to record yourself, usually in your

bedroom on a [ __ ] camera, talking to

nobody. Yep. Is a little bit weird. Do

you know what I mean? It is very odd.

How did how did it start for you?

It started for me. So

I I harbored dreams of being a YouTuber

since about 2009. Why? Um because I used

to follow uh people like Kurt Schneider

and Sam Tsui who were kind of YouTube

cover artists. They would produce covers

of popular songs.

And those covers were amazing. Like

they'd film them beautifully, arrange

them beautifully. And I had a few

friends who were really good at singing.

And I fancy myself, you know, I was

quite into maths. I I liked the idea of

playing multiple musical instruments.

So I thought, I want to be the sort of

YouTuber where I can play along to songs

and my friends who are actually good at

singing can sing along to those songs.

And that's the sort of YouTuber I want

to be.

And so I sort of had a few like uh sort

of stop-starty moments over the over

those like next 10 years, um kind of

trying and failing at this.

But ultimately, the reason I became a

YouTuber was because it was content

marketing for my medical school

admissions business,

where I was helping people get into med

school, teaching them how to do well in

these exams. And no one was really

creating decent content for free on the

internet about those exams. There was

these kind of corporations creating

boring corporate-looking stuff.

Um and I saw that gap in the market. I

was like, great, if I can create these

sort of tutorials on YouTube, content

marketing, people will watch my

tutorials for free and if they like me

enough, they'll sign up to the course.

And that's why I started speaking to a

camera in my bedroom. It was like, all

right guys, here are some tips for

section one of the BMAT. You know,

section one is all about critical

thinking, the 60 minutes and 35

questions and bloody blah. And here's

how you do it. And I was so familiar

with that stuff having taught it for 5

years, um that

that started to do reasonably okay early

on. In the days where I had like 51

subscribers, 52 you know, refreshing the

YouTube app every day to be like, oh my

god, I've got another view.

Um and then it sort of morphed from

there. Was there a tipping point where

you thought, [ __ ] this is going to be

bigger than the

the thing that I intended this to

support?

Yeah, that tipping point was my first

video that went viral.

Uh and it was a video about how to study

for exams. Um

uh this was one of those weird

weird things that I I look back on where

when I started YouTube, it was in June

of 2017.

I knew that I wanted to make this video,

this sort of how to study for exams

evidence-based tips, at some point

further down the line. It was a topic

that I'd researched extensively. I would

like people would come to me asking for

help on how to study for their exams.

There's actually a whole body of like

psychological research on this that we

just don't get taught in school around

what are the actually most effective

ways to learn.

And so I knew I wanted to make a video

about this. But I knew that I wanted

that to be like my 100th video rather

than my first video because I knew that

I I knew nothing about cameras or

editing or anything. And I reasoned it

would take me 100 videos of being bad at

it before I could make a video that was

actually good.

And I thought to myself to to myself,

okay, I really want to put all my

everything into this 100th video so that

this video can potentially go big.

And that's kind of what ended up

happening. It I think it was my 81st

video or something rather than my 100th,

but that video went viral. I I had like

4,000 subscribers before just sort of

slowly building up. And then over the

next few weeks, it just exploded up to

like 20,000, 25,000.

Um and I was getting all these comments

from people who knew me in real life

being like, oh, I've I've seen your

video. I didn't realize you were a

YouTuber.

And that was the tipping point, um

which really sort of started that

exponential growth trajectory that kind

of you talk about in the compounding

chapter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh but then again, I I So there's two

things that the first this I'll just do

them in the order in which I I thought

of them.

Um

Okay, let's cuz you mentioned

compounding there. What have you learned

from your experience on YouTube about

the importance of of consistency?

Um and also from what you kind of what

typically happens with viral videos is

just there's

it's so impossibly hard to predict the

outcome, right? So a lot of people say a

lot of people on YouTube will make

videos called how to make a viral video

and in marketing it's all like, here are

the secret source, here are the secret

principles. But in reality, you can only

you can you can guess a couple of

principles, but the outcome is hard to

predict. So what have you learned about

consistency, but then also being able to

predict the outcome?

Yeah, uh

when I was listening to your your

compounding chapter, I just found myself

like nodding along like an absolute

maniac to to everything you were saying.

I think the it applies so much to

YouTube. Uh the these days I I teach

people how to how to be part-time

YouTubers. And the and the thing I say

is that

if you make one video every week for 2

years, then I 100% guarantee it will

change your life.

I can't put any numbers on it. I can't

tell you you'll have 100,000 subscribers

or how much money you'll be making, but

I can 100% guarantee it will change your

life. At the very least in terms of the

skills and the experience and the

contacts and the friends you're going to

make through that process. But you have

to put out one video a week and you have

to do it for at least 2 years.

Um Can I just ask on that then on that

point there? What is it that would would

make someone do that?

Because I mean, that's like

[ __ ] clean the floor every day for 2

years and I promise you it'll work out

for you. Mhm. It like

people don't seem to be able to do those

kinds of things without some kind of

intrinsic driver. So I'm like I'm

curious cuz you could say that to a

million people. You could broadcast that

through a tunnel way and 95% plus will

still fail.

So what is it that makes people from

your your experience, but also yeah,

from your own life, makes them do the

work without guarantee of outcome?

Yeah, I think again, I've I feel like

this bit a bit of a cop-out cuz this is

stuff that you talk about uh like in

enjoying the process.

And this is kind of the theme of the

book that I'm writing around how

you know, it's actually quite hard to

show up week after week, not see any

results, not see the views and the

subscribers going up and and stuff

particularly quickly.

But the thing that makes it bearable,

the thing that makes it fun is actually

just enjoying the process and shifting

away from outcome-oriented goals like a

certain number of views, a certain

number of subscribers, and more towards

of goals that are 100% within our

control like, I just want to make two

videos a week. And if I'm happy with the

video, then it goes out. And in fact,

even if I'm not happy with the video, it

goes out anyway. And everyone I know who

has succeeded on YouTube has had that

kind of attitude at some point. I just

have to get that video out every Tuesday

without fail. It's not an option. It's

going to get done.

And

you know, like you're saying when we

when we talk when we talk about

compounding,

that that video on day one isn't going

to do anything. The video on day two or

day three or day 24 is not going to do

anything. But you find when you're on

day 300 and day 600, oh, actually all of

this stuff has been compounding very

very slowly. And then the results happen

really really really slowly and then all

at once as soon as you just get that one

video that that goes viral. That is I

think it that's the chapter I talk about

the eighth wonder of the world. Yeah,

that's it with Warren Buffett and my dog

Pablo being

the the opposing investor. And I

genuinely I think I learned that lesson

when I wrote the book. When I look back

on my life and I thought about all the

things that compounded in my favor, whe-

whether it was like my my teeth had some

problems with my teeth and I thought, do

you know why? And I I probably reference

this in the book. Like I I hadn't been

brushing one of my teeth properly and it

never mattered today or tomorrow or the

day after, but there I was in that

dentist chair but having my teeth

[ __ ] pulled out. And then my

Instagram was the same.

Um health and fitness at the moment, the

same. My business was the same. And it

just goes to show that it's not those

key critical big decisions we make to

drop out. It's that like, yeah, it's the

the compounding small, almost uh

irrelevant decisions. Yeah. But people

don't

cuz I heard you start working out. I

did, yeah.

And then you stopped. Uh I So I've I've

I've had a personal trainer now for the

last kind of 8 months or so.

There you go. Amazing. And uh you know,

I've been I've been going on and off

with the workout thing since the age of

18 and never done it properly until I

got a personal trainer, where now I'm

having to show up. I'm paying someone 30

quid an hour to basically just be with

me while I'm doing stuff.

And that has been the thing that's given

me the most results. Uh

so

I think

whatever like I I find in my life for

for things for things that I actually

care about where I'm like, okay, I

actually care about becoming a happy

sexy millionaire or whatever, let me try

and figure out ways that will remove my

own need for discipline and willpower

from that equation.

And instead get an accountability buddy

or get a coach or

pay a friend 100 quid if I don't do the

thing. This is what my brother and I did

when we were trying to motivate

ourselves. I was doing songwriting, he

was doing stand-up comedy. We're like,

right, if we don't do this every

Thursday for half an hour, we're going

to pay each other 50 quid. Um things

like that to remove the choice, the

motivation, the willpower, the

discipline, that all

the more of that can be outsourced to

someone else or removed completely, the

more I find I actually get stuff done.

And then I don't have to worry about it

cuz I'm like, okay, this is taken care

of. I just show up. I guess you're

removing you're moving the mot- it's not

like removing you're moving it to

another pact. Like Nir Eyal refers to it

as what you've described there as a

financial pact. Where now your

motivation is to not lose 50 quid. It's

like because that is that's a greater

motivating force than you have within

yourself to work out. That's Is that

sustainable?

No, it's not. It's not. Okay. Um

This is all the stuff that I'm

researching for the for for for the book

at the moment. Um and you and you talk

about this as well like in intrinsic and

and extrinsic motivation.

And the way that I I think of it when I

when I think back on my life is that

everything that I've done sustainably

has been because of intrinsic

motivation. I've genuinely enjoyed the

thing.

But you can genuinely enjoy a thing

and still find it really hard to get

started. And I think that's where the

biggest procrastination comes in for all

of us where it's actually just showing

up to the gym. That's the hard part.

Like once you're there it's kind of

easy. It's writing those first 10 words

cuz once you've started writing the

first 10 it's kind of easier to enjoy

the process of writing the rest of them.

And so the and so the way I think about

it is to to get over that like hump of

procrastination, that activation energy

to get started, at that point I will use

every tool that in my arsenal to just

just get me to do the thing for 2

minutes.

Cuz I think once once you do the thing

for 2 minutes it becomes so much easier

to actually enjoy the process and and

and sustain it. And and you're so right

when it comes to procrastination. Like

that getting started point

I've again just learned this from

podcast guests I've had. Nir Eyal again

I refer to him. He he said to me one day

on this podcast he was like, people

procrastinate usually because there's um

a great deal of psychological discomfort

surrounding starting the task. And a lot

of the time, especially with the gym or

even an essay, that psychological

discomfort is like you don't have the

answers. So I don't know how to use the

machines at the gym or I don't actually

have I don't feel competent enough to

even write this essay. So I'm just going

to do the [ __ ] dishes. Yeah. It's

like I'm going to hoover the the whole

house and anyone else's house that needs

hoovering today. Exactly. Um you you

wrote you made a video about

procrastination, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah.

Break that down for me. What's that

What's in the video?

Um So the video's called how to stop

procrastinating, right? Yeah. Um

So the

the way I think about procrastination

basically

procrastination's a problem with getting

started. Um kind of this this law of

inertia,

uh Newton's first law, that if something

is at rest it will continue to stay at

rest. But if something's moving it will

continue to move without needing an

external force. And so the key to

overcoming procrastination is that

little that that little nudge at the

start towards actually getting started.

And all of the techniques around that

like in the whole like psych- psychology

research or research around this it's

just around making make make it as easy

as possible. Um so reduce all of the

friction to doing it. If you want to

learn the guitar then have the guitar by

your sofa rather than in the wardrobe

where you're never going to see it. And

if it's out of sight it's out of mind

you're never going to do it.

There's like the external environmental

friction towards doing the thing. But

then there's also the internal friction.

It's like those narratives that we tell

ourselves the oh I did the psychological

discomfort of going to the gym, the I

don't want to see how other people are

going to see me, the

even even having having the wrong sort

of goal. Like if my goal in writing the

book is, oh I really want to hit the New

York Times best seller list,

then it's really really hard to bring

myself to write anything because now

every single word I have to write has to

be a New York Times best selling word.

Whereas if the goal is, to be honest, I

just want to write a book I'm proud of

that's fun to fun to write, that's

actually within my control. And it

becomes so much easier to get started at

doing the thing.

Um so to overcome procrastination we

need to eliminate external friction,

i.e. the environmental stuff. We need to

try our best to get rid of the internal

friction like the emotional side of it,

the mindset, the perfectionism, the the

fear, the discomfort. And then if we

still need help, there are a few a few

hacks. The the one that I use all the

time is the the 2-minute rule, which is

where I will genuinely convince myself

I'm only going to do it for 2 minutes.

Uh and if I want I'm allowed to stop

after the 2 minutes cuz 2 minutes is

better than nothing. But like 95% of the

time I decide to continue because

2 minutes is all you need to change your

life. Yeah. I should tweet that. That's

good. It's so yeah that's really good.

And I that 2-minute thing is fascinating

to me because I one of the things that

um I see as another psychological

barrier to starting is people view it as

like they view the challenge as Mount

Everest. Whereas if like they've got to

I'll say it in another way. They view

the challenge as moving Mount Everest.

And really if they viewed it as just

like moving one pebble at a time it

becomes such a simple task.

Yeah. And I get this a lot when

entrepreneurs ask me they say, Steve I

want to start a business, where do I

start? And you can hear in the question

that they see it as moving Mount

Everest. And I'm like, well, today all

you have to do is think of a name.

Just think of like 50 names. Make a

short list of names. Yeah. And then

we'll we'll revisit it tomorrow. And

then tomorrow maybe think of, you know,

go and check if the website's available.

And then we'll revisit it the day after.

Yeah. And when it becomes that and when

it becomes sort of really small itemized

one small step at a time and you're not

having to get from stair zero to a

thousand immediately, it becomes so, you

know, the psychological discomfort fades

away.

It feels achievable. And that your

2-minute rule's doing a similar thing

where it's saying, well, today only I've

I've only got to do just just [ __ ]

open the Word document and write the

title and then we're done.

You know, and

So that's fascinating. What about re-

You you were going to say something else

there. Yeah, I mean I just just to your

point there. Um have you have you come

across the blog Wait But Why? No. Oh,

it's incredible. You should definitely

interview Tim Urban when you're in

America. Oh, actually what I literally

yesterday went on his Instagram and sent

him a DM. Oh, great. Yeah, he's he's

awesome. Any any podcast he's ever been

on I've been like, oh this is so sick.

Uh he has a great blog post series about

overcoming procrastination. And the way

he refers to that that that point you

just made is that um there are a lot of

tasks that are very like vague and icky.

Mhm. And you have to be able to

un-icky-fy a task. Uh and something like

start a business is icky. Something like

learn to code is icky because like what

the hell does that even mean? Like where

do you even start? Whereas brainstorm 10

ideas for a name and pick one of them is

a very clearly defined next action step.

And so I get this with students all the

time where people are like, oh I don't

have the motivation to study for my

chemistry exam. It's like, what's on

your to-do list? Study for my chemistry

exam.

That's never going to happen. Read

chapter one and answer questions four to

five are a reasonable thing, a

reasonably defined next action step.

Mhm. And so what I do is anytime I find

myself procrastinating from something I

think, okay, am I procrastinating

because I actually the the task is too

icky. I I don't know what I have to do.

Cuz once I know what I have to do I can

then do it for 2 minutes and it gets

done.

Speaking about productivity, um as you

guys know I'm I'm the biggest Huel

consumer in the world and I have been

for many many many years. And I always

get asked what my favorite Huel products

are. And I have them here in front of

me. The first product that I fell in

love with with Huel because it's

nutritionally complete, it tastes

amazing. I have no time in my life, but

I also want don't want my diet to be

compromised when my life gets really

really busy as it always has um ended up

being. Um is this berry flavor

ready-to-drink Huel. That was where that

was where my journey with Huel began.

The next product that I fell in love

with with at Huel was the banana flavor

ready-to-drink. For me it just tastes

better than the berry and I I already

think the berry tastes amazing. Funnily,

from speaking to Huel, a lot of people's

favorite flavor is the chocolate flavor.

Um I've never taken a huge liking to the

chocolate flavor, but to be honest I

don't really eat much chocolate in any

facet of my life um or drink it at all.

And now the product which I have every

single day without fail and probably

because I'm in that phase where I'm

working out every day without exception

and I want to make sure that my gains

from working out, whether it's becoming

more lean or becoming more strong, are

captured is the protein um Huel which

has just come out. And as you can see,

if anyone thinks I'm bullshitting about

how much I like Huel, this tub is

basically empty. So Huel, if you're

listening, please can I have a top up? I

will buy it, don't worry. Um but

honestly, and I say this with full

honesty, 100% honesty, um I genuinely

didn't like protein powders before.

Maybe I'm lazy, not the type of guy that

likes to mix things. And this is my

favorite flavor protein ever. The salted

caramel Huel which I talk about all the

time. They also have a ton of other

flavors. They're all actually on top of

my fridge there. But I'm starting with

this one. I've basically finished it and

then I'll work my way through the others

and give you a little bit of a review on

those. I it's such as I always say in

this podcast it's such an honor to be

able to talk about a product that you

use many times a day. I had a good Huel

ready-to-drink this morning. I'll have

this after my workout which is after

this podcast. And in terms of

productivity optim- um and operating at

your best then that is what Huel is all

about.

You know, people talk about how they'll

put on their to-do list clean house.

And it will sit on a to-do list. And

clean house that's a That's a big thing.

It's a big and it will and that will sit

on your to-do list for like I don't

know, 2 weeks or whatever. But if you do

if you time block and write in your This

is what I do on the weekends because so

Monday to Friday my schedule is ran by

the the meetings and things I have to

do. So I'm a slave to the calendar.

Saturday and Sunday come around.

I wake up I'm like,

okay.

I'm like, what the [ __ ] How does this

thing work? It's like, yeah, I'm like

it's empty. I've got loads of things I

know I could be doing right now, but

nothing no one telling me what to do in

a in a in a life of mine where I'm told

what to do every 5 minutes. Um

So I time block on the weekends which

means clean house would become at 11:00

till 12:00 I clean the kitchen.

Cuz then it's like time sensitive and

like task specific. And that's that's

been an absolute game changer for me.

And I also think in the era of working

from home

where

you know, people are sat at home, they

have a tasks they have to come

It's like we

It's almost like we prepped for this cuz

like this is literally like the the

three-part structure of of my book which

I've been like I just having in my head

for the last last few weeks.

Perfect. Where like step one is, how do

we beat the procrastination, how do we

get started with doing the thing, and

part two of the book is how do we

sustain, how do we actually keep on

going doing the thing.

And

uh there's just so in in in terms of

mindset, the thing that I found that

actually moves the needle is focusing on

trying to make it fun. And I really I

really like that word fun, like

I think there's something about the word

fun that is so like childish, but also

fully speaks to like fun basically means

intrinsic motivation, like something is

sufficiently enjoyable that you do it

for its own sake rather than for the

fact that you've got a sponsor helping

you or you've got a deadline or or

things like that. Um

there's one

there's one story in particular that I I

I I often come back to and that's like

sometime last year I was I was working

at the hospital, it was pandemic season,

etc. etc. And I'd I'd gotten to the end

of like a 13-hour long shift and I was

just about to go home uh and the nurse

said to me, "Oh Ali, can you put a

cannula in this patient? Her like IV

line is tissued and and she needs fluids

overnight." And my heart kind of sank. I

was like, "Oh no." Like if if the nurse

wasn't able to put the cannula in, that

means this is a patient with difficult

veins, it means it's going to be hard to

put this in.

And I sort of had this mindset of like,

"All right then, fine." and sort of uh

grudgingly took out the cannula and got

got all the the equipment in a tray.

And I like as as I was doing this, I

there was a a patient in the bay next

door where they were just like talking

to a family member or something and

saying, "Oh you know, that this hospital

has been amazing, everyone is so nice,

and what a pleasure it is, you know,

freaking love the NHS" kind of vibes.

And I realized that in that moment I was

not being like a good

model internally for what I want the NHS

to be and what I want a good doctor to

be. And there's something that Seth

Godin uh who uh who I've been following

for a while says, which is that

it's the difference between have to and

get to.

And so I was considering as like, "Oh I

have to put in this cannula." And I

remembered that blog post I read from

Seth Godin where he said, "Instead of

thinking of have to, think of it as get

to." And I realized, "Oh, I get to put

in this cannula. I get to make a

difference in this patient's lives and

and life and give her fluids overnight

so that she's not going to dehydrate

because of her morning sickness."

And just that mindset shift immediately

made me feel so much better about it.

And I was like, "Oh, I get to do this.

Who cares if I've been working for 13

hours? This is fun. This is privilege.

This is cool." And I put it in and we

had a nice chat and I felt really great

about it afterwards. And now like that

and so that's one of the mindset things

that I just always come back to if I'm

finding myself not enjoying something

and therefore my focus goes, I get

distracted, I I procrastinate.

Instead of thinking I have to do this, I

think I get to do this. It's like a

gratitude shift. Yeah.

Yeah, it's like your chapter three or

whatever it was talking about gratitude.

And we so quickly fall out of gratitude.

Mhm. When we become used to Yeah.

When we become like used to the

privilege of our life, used to the

privilege of our jobs, of our

relationships, of our kids, of our dog.

We we think, well, you know, we And

because it And the Stoic people talk

about this. I think I probably talk

about this in the book as well cuz these

are just Clearly the only ideas I have.

I've put them all in there. Um how they

used to do that like hedonistic

adaptation

um exercises to literally take the

things out of their life that they

really value just to remind themselves

of what they had. And it kind of seems

like, yeah,

gratitude is a very important thing.

Have you Have you got like a defined

gratitude practice that you do? Like

gratitude journaling or that kind of

stuff? Uh so I the gratitude journaling

thing um takes place in the notes of my

phone where sometimes I feel the need to

remind myself of what I'm really really

grateful for. I think I do have a

a bias towards feeling grateful all the

time. I really just get overwhelmed

sometimes with like I'll have like a

little flash. You probably get this when

you think, "What the [ __ ] is this?"

Yeah. Like you know what I mean?

Like what the Especially now that I'm on

Dragon's Den and that was a real vision

of mine from when I was like 12 years

old. I'm like

oh my this is And I said this in my show

the other day. I said um

I said on stage in the diary of a CEO

live

I said that um I said to the audience, I

said like

I think everybody in this room is living

a life that you once dreamed of living,

but you don't you're not even happy

about it because

present you

well, yeah, present you has told you

that future you will be even happier

when you get to somewhere else, but like

this is it. This was the [ __ ] dream

and look at you living it. Look at you

as you're, you know, doctors and lawyers

and you've got the job at that brand you

always wanted to work for. This is it.

Um

and I I have to do that to myself

sometimes because

yeah, it um

because if not, you'll never get there.

If your happiness is always as I say in

the book, if if it always lives

somewhere in the future behind some goal

or attainment of some task or whatever,

it always will be there. And that was

certainly the case for me. And I from

what I read about you

where um

you were talking about like

outcomes and not being too attached to

the outcomes. Sounds like it might have

been similar. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.

Um I I have to remind myself on a daily

basis as well um to kind of be be be

grateful for for all of the things.

Um

sometimes like if I if if I'm in the

habit of doing like a morning journal,

I'll like write down a list of three

things and it's it's often simple things

like you know, this cup of coffee in my

hand or Angus or like my housemate and

just like, you know, this nice chat that

we had.

And I think like like for me if if I

don't remind myself I I always just

think in kind of hustle mode of like,

"All right, cool, onto the next thing,

onto the next thing, onto the next

thing."

Um but like it was it was pretty cool

yesterday like we

we went on a tour of Gymshark HQ up

north.

And I was just thinking that I can't

believe this is this is my job. Like I I

get to do this for work. This is

absolutely sick. And even now being here

like this is

sitting here talking to you is what I

get to do for work. And if like I don't

know, 18-year-old me were to imagine

being in this position now, I'd just

been like, "Oh my god, this is this is

the dream."

Have you come across a guy called

Brandon Sanderson? Nope. Uh he's an

author. He he writes he's he's my

favorite author. Uh he does these

incredible like fantasy novels

Stormlight Archive huge huge huge uh

series.

In it there's like a a phrase that I

always come back to around this point.

There's this like um order of knights,

they're called the Knights Radiant, and

they have like their like charter, their

ideals. And their first ideal is life

before death, strength before weakness,

journey before destination. And it's

that final bit of journey before

destination that I remind myself of on a

basically daily basis where

it's it's kind of like Miley Cyrus's

thing of it's the climb. It's not about

how fast I get there, ain't about what's

waiting on the other side, it's the

climb.

And the way I try and

I try and remind myself of this point of

I I am enough is thinking and and really

trying to internalize that the journey

is more important than the destination.

Mhm. And I think we do need a

destination. Like you know, the fact

that I want to I don't know

write this book or whatever. Like that's

that's a destination. But now that I've

got that destination of like, "Cool,

this is the direction I want to go." At

that point in a dream world I would just

forget about that. And now that I'm on

the journey, I would enjoy the journey

on its own merit. Mhm. Because you know,

as you know, once you if you set a goal,

you hit the goal, it's like, "Well,

happiness lasted

the joy from that lasted about 5 seconds

and then it feels like nothing.

Even like sometimes it doesn't feel like

anything at all even even for those 5

seconds." Mhm. Um and so what I've been

realizing a lot recently is that yes,

we're I don't know, expanding the team

and moving to an office in London and

like hiring people and bloody blah blah

blah.

But really like am I enjoying myself day

to day? And am I kind of living

the dream as it were day to day and not

not so much worrying about the goal at

the end of it. One thing that you that

you that you talk about as well um is

I think it was either 19 chapter chapter

19 or 20. It was around

this thing of you kind of yeah, ambition

versus insecurity is this thing that you

think you want to do, is it coming from

within or is it coming from outside of

you?

And you talk about values like living in

alignment with your values.

Do you have any like how how do you

figure out what your values are?

It's a really interest It's a really

interesting um thing. Um I think

I think one of the the best indicators

of what your values are are from how you

feel. That's maybe the most um

fundamental human stimuli we have, which

is how something makes us feel. Um

slight tangent.

I was talking to someone about this

yesterday.

In the world we live in and as the

social media connected from birth

generation, we don't understand what our

actual true intrinsic values are very

easily because even if And then this is

kind of a controversial topic, but who

cares?

Even charity. We all think we're

charitable human beings.

We're not.

And if you've only got to look back at

human history to understand that our

morals are highly influenced by what

society is doing at the time because if

you go back 150 years, I would have been

a slave potentially. Right? My family

certainly would have in Africa. Like

they would have had a high chance of

being slaves. And at the time

my slave master was not a bad person. He

was a good person.

You know, morally sound person, you

know, and and and now obviously that's

viewed as being an awful thing. And it's

the same within like the

LGBTQ T Q Q community that, you know, at

one time

um it that was just everyone knew that

believed that being in a same-sex

relationship was

a terrible thing, an evil thing in some

religious um writings. Now we all accept

it to be How can our morals have society

has changed. The force that's telling us

what's right and wrong, what's good and

bad, what's valued and what, you know,

has changed. That's the only change

that's happened. So I do believe deeply

that a lot of our values um unavoidably

come from our willingness to survive by

taking up the values of the communities

we live in.

However, when it comes to your personal

values

however they've been shaped, usually

from your parents or early experiences,

I I just go on based on how things make

me feel and

that seems to be the only indication I I

I have of what's what's true for me and

what's not.

If I If I'm alone and I watch a a video

of a baby um suffering or crying

and it makes me sad

when no one's around. Yeah.

And I'm not having to tweet about my

feelings to the world, then I would

assume that that is, you know, you said

about learning and sorry, teaching.

You've got enjoyment from that. You've

always got I would assume that's one of

your sort of professional values or

something you value professionally.

Yeah.

I've been on a whole like quest across

the internet of the last few months to

try and answer this question of how do

you how do you figure out what your

values are. Um there's this like program

with a life coach that I even did which

is like just just finishing up where um

one of the exercises was

to like go back to your childhood and

think about

kind of on a scale of kind of minus 10

to plus 10, uh minus being really bad

and plus being really good, like what

were the most salient experiences of

your childhood?

And I was like, okay, this sounds like

BS, but all right, let me engage with

this process. And then I I made this

list of all these things that these

salient memories from childhood like,

you know, that time when my brother new

game my Pokémon Blue and I lost my 146

Pokémon and that how how that felt and

that time when whatever.

Um and the facilitator was like, okay,

let's try and tease out like what this

might tell you about some of your

values. And I was kind of surprised that

a lot of the stuff that came out of

that,

if I think about is this a core value

that I live by {slash} I want to live

by, the answer was yes.

Uh and I was surprised by how much of

those experiences were when I was under

10 years old shaped maybe the values

that I've got right now.

And so when I think about my values,

it's things like I think primarily for

me right now it's like freedom and

autonomy, which is why I think I've got

this whole drive to be financially

independent, to work medicine part-time

rather than full-time, to have be in

control of my own schedule, things like

togetherness kind of working with other

people a really fun thing for me whether

I was in school or university. Studying

with friends is just always more fun

than studying on my own. And that wasn't

true of for everyone, but it was

certainly true for me. Um teaching on

that list kind of uh

hell helping other people in a way, but

like I've got I've got friends for

example who who who run charities and

they genuinely feel in their hearts

if there is suffering in the world.

Yeah. And I don't genuinely feel in my

heart when there's suffering in the

world. Um but I know intellectually that

I should care about this thing and so I

will act in a way that makes me care

about the thing and like donate 10% of

my money to charity every year and all

this all this stuff, but I won't

actually feel it. Um but when I think

about how I feel, it's like teach

teaching other people rather than saving

saving lives is the impact that I care

about having.

And when I realized this, I was like,

oh, okay, this explains why I actually

don't really care that much about

medicine. Like I'm I prefer

teaching medical students than actually

practicing as a doctor. Mhm. And

realizing that teaching is more of a

value for me than saving lives for

example. I was like, okay, cool. This

this makes sense. I can now get on board

with that and not feel bad about it. The

other point is that I've never

cared about really I've really never

cared about finding out what my values

are.

Because and this is probably goes back

to what how I answered that question

because the stimuli that I have to

decide all of these things is like um

how does it make me feel? And I think if

you have a good quitting framework

then you will quickly move in the

direction of your values um much faster

than others will. Quitting framework?

Yeah, like if you have a good uh a good

uh like quitting framework, you're very

good at quitting, then you you'll

actually you'll

so if you're good at

conducting experiments and then

quitting,

like just a it's like rapid AB testing,

right? And you can I think I think the

answer really to finding out who you are

and what your values are and getting

your place to a life that you really

love is try something. I I always say to

young people, increase the amount of

experiments you're doing and quit

faster.

So you go and get a job, you're like,

okay, um I hate this. This boss was a

dick because we didn't have any freedom

here or autonomy. I hate that part. I

love the fashion part, but I just hate

this environment because of this this

and this. Quit. Go and find a job where

you have the bit you liked and some new

sort of uh ex factors. And then you go,

okay, well, I love that bit. I actually

loved being a manager here. I'm going to

keep the fashion piece. I love the

autonomy of being able to work from home

or whatever. Then quit, move on. Next

job, you know. And I think that's what

I've done in my life is I never knew

what my values were, but I went in the

direction of um

I started out in call centers.

Knew I loved building things and being

an entrepreneur in sales. Moved in that

direction, quit the call center jobs,

did about 15 of them, start my own

business. Parts of business I really

don't like.

Yeah.

Don't want to do those parts. Don't do

them.

I still don't do them. Yeah. And I'm

like, this is the part within this bit

within business that I love doing within

this industry and I never was

intentional about that. There was no

plan. It was this rapid increase the

experiments you're doing and quit as

fast as you possibly can.

Um and then you end up I think in a life

that you're But quitting is easier said

than done. I have to say it would be

remiss if I didn't say all of this is

underpinned by huge confidence in self.

Mhm.

And the fact when I do quit, I don't

need a plan and that I'll I'll be fine.

A lot of people don't have that part, so

they

hold themselves in a miserable situation

because it's a certain one. Yeah.

You know, I like

like when I when I read that bit of the

book, the the quitting framework, I was

sort of retrospectively applying

decisions I've made to quit to that that

thing of like suck and hard. I was like,

oh, okay, this actually makes a lot of

sense. Um

there was one decision that my mom still

haunts me about

which was

a

about about a year ago I decided that,

you know what, I want to take my medical

career seriously and I want to move to

America to do medicine. I had a few

friends who were there, it seemed like

an adventure and it seemed cool. But to

move to America from the UK to do

medicine, you have to take this like

ridiculously hard exam called the USMLE

and it's basically like relearning all

of medical school

but at like, you know, a ridiculous

level of detail more so than we have in

the UK. And so I started off preparing

for this and I realized that this is

actually really hard. And

the thing that

I reasoned in my mind was

I could do this. It's but the reward is

really not worth it. Like you get to the

end of it. I'd spoken to some doctors

who were working in America

and they were like, yeah, you make 400k

a year and you're working a lot and

you're going through this 4 years of

grueling residency program.

And in my mind it was like, okay, it's

it's hard and the outcome is not worth

it. Therefore, I'm just going to quit.

That's the worst place to be in life.

Doing hard

struggling for nothing. Yeah.

Um but then when I have conversations

with my mom, it's like, oh, well,

you quit because you're a quitter. Like

the fact that you found it hard me like

you only quit because it was hard. And

it's like

no, I didn't only quit because it was

hard. I also I also crucially quit

because it was like the the reward was

not going to be worth it, but I I didn't

quite have the terminology to express

that until I read it in your book

recently.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't either and it was again

that's why I have to specify that that's

not the framework I've made my life

decisions through through for my whole

life. In hindsight, what I'm a very

logical sort of first principle thinker

and that's why I'm able to arrive at

peace when I make these massive life

decisions because it's like, oh,

logically there was no alternative.

There was no alternative. I'm not going

to do something that's hard and not

worth it.

What kind of insanity is that? I am

someone that will do something that's

hard and worth it.

I'm not and I'm not someone that's going

to quit every time something sucks. I am

someone that's going to try and change

it if it's worth it and if I think it's

possible to change. I mean my my you

know, my girlfriend have an argument and

I go, this sucks and [ __ ] walk out

the door. That's not who I am. I will

try and fight for something if it's

worth it and if I believe it's

changeable. And so

logically I think that framework is

robust. I think it's solid.

You talk a lot about time management.

Managing one's time. You made a lot of

videos about the topic.

What have What have been some of the

other sort of um tips or tricks that

you've adopted that have helped you

manage your time better? We talked about

time blocking and

um

breaking your vague to-do list tasks

down into specific ones. Is there

anything else that comes to mind? Yeah,

there's one um

I've I've read a bunch of books around

productivity and stuff. Uh there's one

called Make Time

by these chaps called Jake and John. Uh

and there's a tip in there which I

genuinely use every day. Uh it's just

it's called the daily highlight where

it's just similar to Gary Keller's thing

of the one thing like, what is the one

thing you want to do today? And then

it's like I define that in the morning.

Okay, what's the one thing I want to do

today? Record this podcast with you.

What's the one thing I want to do

tomorrow? Finish sample chapter for the

book proposal. And then I'll stick a

slot in the calendar for it and then the

thing will get done.

And on days where I actually do the

daily highlight thing, I have about a

50% success rate with actually thinking

about it in the morning. I always just

get more done and I feel at the end of

the day, oh, I've made progress because

I've done that one thing that was most

important. And on the days where I

don't, I find that like, oh, I've got

these 18 things to do on my to-do list.

Got this message coming from this person

who wants to intro intro to that person.

Whereas when when I know what that one

thing is, I'm like, oh, okay, cool. All

I have to do is just get that one thing

done today. And I sometimes think that

if I did this more often, if for 365

days I actually just did the one thing

that's most important each day, I'd be

making so much progress. I'd be having

so much fun.

And then I think to myself, why do why

don't I actually just do this every day?

Um but that's that's one of my main

ones. That's life as well. Just

And you you when you talked about the

tipping point in your career where you

blew up, you're talking about made you

made that video about how to study.

And I guess the premise of that video

was teaching people how to learn better.

Yeah. You've read a lot of As it relates

to learning Yeah.

outside of studying just more generally,

what tools have you adopted? Cuz you're

some you even, you know, you've read my

book and you remember all everything it

seems. What trips and tips and tricks

have you learned about how to learn

better?

Yeah, um

so

essentially the main one is that we

learn by

testing ourselves rather than by

consuming more stuff.

Uh like we like in in which is a bit

counterintuitive, like when it comes to

if we if we think about like studying

and then we can kind of broaden it out.

Like if it comes to studying, we think

that to to learn more stuff, I need to

get more information into my brain. But

what what what what what the evidence

says is that no, to learn more stuff,

you actually need to read it once and

then you have to try your best to get it

out of your brain. And that feels hard

and it feels tough and it feels like oh,

I'm I'm an idiot, I don't know enough.

But that that like desirable difficulty

is what allegedly creates the neuronal

connections in our brain to make us

actually learn something.

Um, and so it's similar to working out

like progressive overload. When it's

heavy and when it feels hard is when

your muscles are actually growing cuz

you've got the stimulus for growth.

Equally, when it comes to learning

anything, when it feels hard is when

there is a stimulus for the neurons to

grow.

Or words to that effect. And so when it

comes to studying,

if anyone is sort of

listening to this, has exams coming up

and they are worried about the grades,

the the answer is that they're just not

testing themselves enough. The more you

test yourself, the better grades you'll

get. And this therefore applies also to

every other thing that we're trying to

learn. So, you know, if I'm learning I

was learning how to play You've Got a

Friend in Me on the guitar the other

day. And if I'm just playing through the

first two verses of it that I know

already, I'm not learning anything. But

as soon as I try doing the thing that

feels hard, at that point it's like it

the harder it feels, the more I'm

learning. And then and then we sleep and

then the connections get solidified. Um,

so it's that that's kind of the main

concept. Basically, test yourself more,

whatever that thing is. Um, and the

second big one in the research is spaced

repetition that anything we learn,

whether it's a fact for an exam or a

song on the guitar, our memory for it

will exponentially decay over time.

And the way to make it go into a

long-term memory, whatever the skill is,

is to interrupt the forgetting curve uh,

at spaced intervals. So, maybe you would

learn you would practice the song on day

one, you'd practice it again on day two,

then on day five, then on day 25, and

then on day 105. And as the intervals

lengthen, that is the sort of thing that

gets this how to play the song or this

fact about medicine or whatever into our

long-term memory.

And most things around learning can

basically be summed up by those two

things, active recall, i.e. test

yourself, and spaced repetition, i.e.

space it out over time.

Interesting. People are really

fascinated by productivity, aren't they?

They are, yeah. I think I heard you say

about like when you put the word

productivity in your content, it seems

to perform better.

Yeah,

I I often think about this like

So So, to me, productivity

I think I think to a lot of people,

productivity just means efficiency and

creating economic output. The way that I

define productivity is just kind of

using my time well and working on things

that are meaningful to me and optimizing

for happiness. And so to me, this

conversation is is productive, hanging

out with friends is productive.

I was playing PlayStation last night for

a couple of hours. That to me was

productive because I was like

intentionally doing it cuz I wanted to

take a break from writing.

Um, it's when I feel it's I I feel

unproductive when I know there is

something I want to do and I am not

doing the thing

because I'm scrolling Instagram. That to

me is unproductive. You're not being

intentional with your time. Exactly.

Yeah. But I think on the internet these

days,

people use productive as economic output

and the whole like oh, I want to be more

productive, it's a

I think partly it's a

virtue signaling thing to some degree as

well.

Yeah. Yeah, partly to it's it's a virtue

virtue signaling thing. I think I think

partly it's it's also like a

self-flagellating thing in a way whereby

I I often see comments on my videos

where it's like productive day in my

life, which I'm kind of doing tongue in

cheek just cuz it's funny, where people

are like oh my god, I watch these just

to make myself feel bad.

And I'm like oh, wow, okay.

Uh, A, this is a this is mostly a joke.

Like I hope you realize this, but but

but also it's like that that's kind of

sad that that comment has got so many

upvotes, where oh, I feel so I feel like

such a waste man when I watch one of Ali

Abdaal's videos.

And I think there is that like perverse

sense of

people getting pleasure out of the story

they're telling themselves that they are

non-productive or that they are chronic

procrastinator. And to see someone who

doesn't who is on the surface seemingly

so productive

makes you kind of feel bad about

yourself.

Um,

I wonder if it's similar to like if I

look at my Instagram explore page, about

a year ago, it used to be bikini models.

These days are the dudes with six-pack

abs.

And I look at that and there is a part

of me that gets pleasure out of like

flagellating myself and then like why

why don't I look like that yet?

And I wonder to what extent that's like

a thing in the world of productivity.

It is fascinating.

Cuz

I mean, that would be driven by

the antithesis of that. That's got to be

driven by a culture where productivity

and I'm getting so much done, so I'm

going to be successful and rich and a

millionaire and this is I mean, stealth

mode building this massive business and

I've been up all night. Look at me, it's

4:00 a.m. and I'm still working. That's

driving one end of the spectrum, which

is making productivity and being

productive an aspiration for

this generation.

And on the other end, that's I mean,

that's why again,

the desire to be productive is so high

and your videos do so well on that

topic.

And then you have the counter movement

as as you always do where it's like I'm

such a procrastinator and then all the

memes

which bang just as hard because

there's been this desire created in

culture to be, you know, super

productive. Or as it relates to like

weight and fitness, like

everyone wants to look so good and then

the memes of people sat there with a pot

noodle on their belly like resting like

with their like running shoes on

will also bang just as hard. Yeah. But

yeah.

It's just a very relevant thing in our

culture, which is quite quite strange

that that this incessant desire to be

productive. I think there's actually

there is a rising counterculture, which

is about

being okay with not being productive.

Yeah, no, exactly.

I am I am I'm having to pepper in a

pepper that into my videos a lot more

these days. Nice. Because I kind of

thought it was it was

so obvious that it doesn't need to be

stated that obviously, you know,

don't be don't be don't seek economic

output and productivity at the expense

of other things that are more important

like health and relationships.

Uh, but clearly that's not a thing that

is obvious. And so I'm now having to

caveat a lot of my productivity advice

with like a look guys, let's just define

productivity as, you know, meaning and

fulfillment and stuff rather than pure

economic output.

And it's okay to be intentional and say

I don't want to do anything today if

that was your intention. I want to just

do [ __ ] all like and I think that's um,

that's the nuance that's required in all

of that.

Psst. Speaking of productivity, one more

company I wanted to tell you about,

fiverr.com. I mean, if there was a

company that's predicated on increasing

your productivity, it is fiverr.com,

where you can outsource some of the

tasks in your life that you do not want

to do professionally, whether it's

designing a website, making a thumbnail,

um, editing a video, anything, you can

get it done on fiverr.com

cost-effectively. And sometimes, if

we're talking about increasing

productivity, using someone who's on

another time zone, which means work is

still happening when you are asleep,

which extends the bandwidth of the

amount of hours you have towards your

goals. Um, this month, we are using

Fiverr to to redesign the thumbnails on

our second YouTube channel, a graphic

designer we found there. And I always

use it whenever I have professional

tasks that I need handling. That is

fiverr with two r's.com/ceo.

You talked about relationships at the

start of this podcast. You said

You said you you I you think you alluded

to the fact that you hadn't had much

luck there. Mhm. When we were talking

about knowing you're enough. Yeah.

What's going on?

Yeah, this is a real problem. Um, so

there's a few like narratives that I've

bought into um, subconsciously. One of

those narratives is that I am like a

weedy nerd kid this like the kid that I

was when I was 12 years old and getting

slightly bullied in school and getting

grades and stuff, but like not really

have anything anything

uh, not being valuable as a human being

beyond the fact that I was generating

A stars in exams.

That's like one side of it. There's

there's another side, but I don't I I'd

I'd love to hear your take on on the

other side.

side? The other side is um,

if we're if we're keeping it real, it's

like I think it's around

masculinity and what it means to be a

man.

And if one if one were to hypothetically

read WikiHow articles on how to get

girls or even the vast literature on the

topic, um, there is a big thing of women

are attracted to

men like, you know, people who are so so

so someone who is a man, someone who

leads, someone who's like alpha, those

sorts of those those sorts of things.

And

I think

my kind of default way of being is very

not that. And like my idea of fun is

singing Disney songs and playing board

games until 2:00 in the morning with a

pizza takeaway rather than something

that a more like macho alpha type person

person would be.

And so

on the one hand, there's that thing of

just be yourself, uh, of be your

authentic self, etc. etc. and I'll go

well like that for who you are.

And on the other side, it's the the

thing of

you will objectively get more success

with women in inverted commas if you

sort of are more of that alpha type

personality.

Here's the problem you have.

Yeah, please.

On the on the that that particular point

before we move on cuz I'd love to hear

what you're going on to say, but you

were you it sounded like you were saying

do I be myself and dance around

listening to Disney,

um, even though it might return a lower

quantity of smoking hot potential

partners.

Correct.

Um, or the alternative to that is do I

be masculine um, guy and like act

outside of self to generate more smoking

hot partners.

The issue you have is you just got to

zoom out and you got to think about the

outcome of both approaches and how

sustainable both approaches are.

Mhm.

All you can be is yourself for a long

period of time.

Okay. And if you want long long-term

results,

that's the only option you have. Of

course, you can act as something you're

not and pretend you don't like Disney

and not listen play board games and

stuff. And you might meet

the wrong person for a short amount of

time.

Because and it will be a short amount of

time because that relationship will

capitulate the minute they find out who

you actually are. And this is there's

you know