i don't see barriers hard work every day

is a lifestyle

it should be like a standard dedication

attention to detail

i just wanted to be the best i was that

obsessed with it my kids lost they lost

their

their mum i got to understand mental

health for making a documentary it's

allowed me to kind of speak and

show vulnerability that people probably

were never used to the great part of it

is that you walk down the street an old

age lady or a man come up to you you

know what

throat's all croaky and i watched your

program

i've never spoken before really you

helped me

like my next phase of my life when

someone sees me in

10 20 years say that's where i paid for

my united i haven't really done what i'm

here to do to set and setting out to do

do i even need to introduce my next

guest rio

ferdinand former football player one of

the most decorated

english footballers of all time and as a

man united fan probably one of my

favorite players

of all time ever and he's played

alongside some of the greatest players

ever

but he's also been managed by the best

manager ever

i grew up as a manchester united fan

watching him idolizing him

and now he's my mate so this is going to

be a fairly

interesting conversation after retiring

he's become a sports commentator for bt

sport he's become

an author he's become an entrepreneur

he's the founder of a charity a

foundation

he's a non-executive director which

we'll talk about today as well

and as you'll hear he's also so much

more some things that you probably

wouldn't expect

he's also a husband and a dad one that's

experienced

tremendous unthinkable tragedy tragedy i

pray that most of us will never know

rio is a special guy not least for what

he's achieved on the field but for who

he is and today you're going to find out

who he

actually is the philosophy to life that

he swears by

and the culture required to win in an

ambitious career but also

the culture required to win in your

personal life

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the director ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

i'm trying to find the right words to

ask this question because it's one that

i've i haven't seen been asked in

previous interviews with you but what

are the what are the key things that

happened

when you were very very young that made

you

choose football as your future or

enabled you to to take that path because

a lot of kids grow up in london a lot of

kids do a lot of things they have a lot

of passions but for some reason

as i read through your story football

was this

ballet as well but football was the the

path that you chose to take

above all other things yeah it's a good

question because when i was younger i

was into everything

i was running around on the estate i was

doing gymnastics

a couple of times a week i was doing

ballet i was obviously playing football

i was doing athletics

i was doing a drama class why were you

doing all those things there because i

just was interested

in it all i liked it i enjoyed it and my

mum and dad were really my mom

especially were really like if you like

something go and do it

try it they were always like that go and

do it what's

the worst it can do is you you don't

enjoy it i used to do karate sometimes

as well

and i got to a point i think i was like

13 or 14 years old and obviously my dad

was having to come from east like

obviously we lived in south london he'd

drive to east northeast london

drive home pick me up from school take

me to west london to play football

back to dropping friends off on the way

is hard graft

and in the end i got to 13 14 years old

and my dad said listen

you're doing a lot at the moment you're

going to burn yourself out so

let's just pick something that you

really enjoy and you want to do

and just go for it and i was like it was

that an easy

conversation it was difficult you know i

had to let down our fault

and disappoint central school of ballet

where i was doing it which is a real

like a top score in london in farringdon

and i made good friends there and

the other stuff i wasn't too that

concerned about it but

four years i was three or four years i

was at the central school of ballet so

i've got

good relationships there told them i

couldn't do it and then

went full throttle and full steam ahead

of with football and it was just

it was the best decision i obviously

made

in my life in that sense but i was i

knew that that was my passion

i liked the other stuff i enjoyed doing

the other stuff there were good

distractions from what was probably

going on my estate as well probably my

parents fault like that as well

but football was the something that i

got up every day from when i knocked on

my friend's ass

borrow ship or let's go and play

football et cetera so

ballet hmm interesting one a lot of

people don't know

that you did ballet and i but it sounds

like you did at a pretty good level

yeah i've done gymnastic gymnastics at

the london olympic games and they

obviously i didn't notice there were

scouts there

from from ballet schools or someone was

watching our family and friend was there

and they said ah

he looks like he i don't know how what i

had or what i was

my posture or something like that looks

good to be a ballet dancer

so i went there and i wasn't really one

for saying no to stuff i was like

i'll try it i'll try anything and they

said and one of the reasons i was going

to be able to get off my estate

meet new people new girls maybe as a

young kid

and then it was in a different part of

london traveling

so i've done it it's funny i read i read

a tweet the other day which was kind of

linked to something you said there and

it said on the way up say yes to

everything

when you get to the top start saying no

to everything yeah yeah and it sounds

like yeah and it's like and i'm almost

saying that as well when we the

conversation we're having now about like

the stuff you're up to now

now yeah like what is what's that i

always think this what's the worst way

that can happen as long as it's not a

health issue

i might fail i might i might not be good

at it i might have foul who cares like

with a boxing

i wanted to go trying to be from a

professional footballer just trying to

be a professional boxer

crazy yeah but what's the worst that can

really happen

i lose the fight my life goes on that's

it so

but some people they can't allow their

ego to be

squashed maybe at a certain point or

their pride

and they're sitting there as this macho

person that they can't

feel vulnerable at any point and when

you try things

there is an element of vulnerability

that comes with that because you're

opening yourself up you're leaving

yourself a bit wide open

for criticism for failure but i'm not

scared of failure

i never have been i'm not i'm not

fearful and that's what i try and put in

my kids

if you fail what get up and go again

people like they they trap themselves in

their career in their sense their sort

of self-identity because

we were talking before we started

chatting about like me trying to resist

my labels now i've left social chain

they think they are an x but from a very

very young age and i'm kind of

connecting the dots now through the rest

of your life and even now

you worse you were a kid on the estate

in peckham

and that is an identity that's not one

that's also conducive with ballet

no is that it's just such a different

end of the spectrum yeah like you just

wouldn't associate one with the other

and again i i wasn't we were speaking

just as you mentioned before before he

came on here

one of the things that i my mom used to

say to me is that don't let anyone tell

you what you are

don't be pigeon holed i mean you go and

find out and explore and find out what

you are

and you gotta have experiences to get to

that point it's not gonna happen

overnight it's not gonna happen in your

childhood

not in your teens when you get to become

an adult you'll start working your way

and finding out who you are and what you

are

and i've always thought that so going to

a ballet school i could have been

ridiculed

my mates i was one of the boys on the

estate but at the same time i was

confident enough that

i really again ballet laughing i don't

care what

and i know i'm good at football i know

i'm good i'm the fastest runner on the

estate in my age group

i can keep up with the older boys what

because i go badly what there's nothing

wrong

who are you to answer that question you

know your mum's telling you to go out

and find out who you are

did you ever answer that question not

really i think that question you don't

really answer it in the end i think

you're always evolving it's like for

instance it's something you said earlier

it

pricked my ears about you said moles the

same thing just in a different way

probably a more elegant way about not

wanting to be pigeonholed and

like my aim in my life now like people

think you've played football and you've

done all these amazing things as a

footballer

i i've done really well i acknowledge

that but

it's like understatement but i don't

that's not enough for me

like my next phase of my life i don't

want to be remember when someone sees me

my success in my next phase of life is

when someone sees me and says that's rio

do you know rio

and they mentioned something that i'm

doing or i've done around that time

not that's rio's a footballer if people

were in

10 20 years say that's where i paid for

my united

i ain't really kicked on i haven't

really done what i'm

i'm here to do to setting out to do

which is to evolve and become something

different

and make something of myself somewhere

else and i think my my family were a lot

like that whether my mum and dad was

successful or not

they were always to us make something of

yourself be something

nothing there's no there's no barriers

to that so that's the way i've always

kind of

thought about things what if it what if

i said to you

now how would you feel if i said you

couldn't ever do anything else and that

like the football thing was it and now

just

i just laugh i'd laugh it would make me

laugh because i i don't see no

i don't see barriers yeah and

unfortunate as well by the way i

understand that i've got to a position

where there are a lot of boundaries that

have been kind of put down

yeah yeah for me to skip over because of

my career as a footballer

yeah and you you're getting that now as

someone who's been really successful in

your field so

you see that color and age et cetera get

put to the side because i

always we acknowledge what you've done

yeah yeah yeah and so we do sometimes

have a easy there's not as big a barrier

to entry for certain things for us but

then you've still got to go in and

produce

you've still got to go and prove

yourself and so even things that i've

i've gone on the board now for a company

the gym group as a ned oh really yeah

which is

it's out of my comfort zone because i

like

fitness but i don't understand the

business behind that and what goes into

having actual having 125 180 sites

and managing that and there's a property

arm and there's a commercial run and

there's a market

and that all coming together under one

umbrella and having to manage all that

and to be a part of those conversations

like

that stuff is what excite i i'm super

interested in that type of stuff

in the workings behind the mechanics of

all these type of businesses different

different industries

so that's what i like do you feel like

you're depth

yeah but i always find something what i

can clear on to that

i just try and find something within a

conversation that would

allow me to to to to gain confidence

through talking in that conversation

i might not understand everything and

when the conversation's finished and the

laptop's closed i'll

i'll be somewhere looking and finding

out i didn't understand that i'll call

that person back or call someone on that

on that call

just to clear up a few things i haven't

quite grasped

but there'll be something within that

conversation where i feel that i can add

some sort of value

i think all of that is a com is a very

again very synonymous as to why you're

like even sat here today because a lot

of people

in that situation would a just [ __ ]

avoid it from the jump

and then b if they encounter something

they don't understand on the call

they'll probably bounce then or

they definitely wouldn't inquire because

by inquiring you're actually making

yourself vulnerable

yeah yeah a lot of people don't want to

avoid vulnerability right being exposed

and it's so funny that the people that

from what i'm hearing from you like the

people that achieve the most success

are the ones that are at some point

willing to look [ __ ] stupid yeah you

gotta do that like no one gets to

where they're gonna get on the cleanest

without a bump on the road yeah you

don't get

like that you have to have bumps in the

road to be able to get there to

experience them

vulnerable moments so that when you are

there you know what it's like

and then you can drag people up with you

yeah yeah and you become stronger with

more

people that's how i always think there's

a lot of people when i get to the top

and stay on the top of the mountain on

their own and don't want to bring no one

up i don't agree with that

i'm always like i want to share and help

and because that

is the foundations of me being stronger

for a longer period of time and can

sustain

success but it is it is

i don't know it's another an important

thing for me as well which i'm

again i'm never scared to do is to ask

questions

like it's the same thing with football

you don't understand something my

manager's telling you our coach is

telling you

don't go away and and have a bit of a

blurred

idea of what it is because then you're

going to be judged on that

not understanding and not executing it's

going to repeat

exactly so you want good habits but

you've got to understand what it is

before you can create a habit

so that's why i'll try and always ask

questions if i'm if i'm wrong if

i feel i'm not sure and i'll definitely

ask questions not crazy

you've achieved all the success you're a

football legend and yet you're still

voluntarily

throwing yourself into really

uncomfortable situations which you don't

need to be in

yeah in terms of finance anyway like you

don't need to be at all in terms of like

a

status you don't need to be there and

it's funny because

there's loads of people that aren't

haven't achieved that that are

that will never throw themselves into

uncertainty

but it's it's but again this is probably

why they're the ones that stay where

they are yeah exactly that's probably

why you sat here

yes they don't grow they don't yeah and

like and all those people who will stay

there some of them are like oh i just

want to stay here but

a lot of them they're scared to open up

because of that vulnerability and them

feeling silly

if they're told that you got it wrong

but it's not

i i'm not like that everyone's on this

earth for different reasons and then

some people happy just to be

like stay in a situation they're in and

be very happy just

going along that that road and no spikes

or drops

i i'd rather have a drop at some point

but to get i know that spike's gonna

come somewhere

through being able to do the things

we're talking about

quick one starting from the minute the

lockdown is lifted we're going to start

bringing in some of our subscribers to

watch how this podcast is produced

behind the scenes

means you get to meet the guests meet

myself and see how we put all of this

together

if you want that to be you all you've

got to do hit the subscribe button

in your in your group front group chat

with your friends from uh

from your estate i heard there's a group

chat um you've been doing the research

i didn't need to research your career

because i was there watching but just

you know

it was i was intrigued by when you said

you got this group chat with your your

friends from back home and stuff and one

of the

topics of conversation is something that

i talk about a lot in this podcast which

is

there's a growing culture of like

softness

there i say it and like avoiding

discomfort and

also there's this crazy thing on

instagram at the moment which is like

demonizing hard work as if it's like

because of the mental health

revolution we've had and everyone's

which is a great thing and everyone's

aware of the impact

you know of this thing called mental

health there's now this other thing

which is like

well you can overwork and you can burn

yourself out and hard work if i advise

as an entrepreneur

even though i've never met someone or

had anyone sit in the seat who didn't

work hard

then i'm somewhat toxic because i'm

telling people that's

success and hard work yeah yeah and it's

like you're you're you're looking down

on people

yeah almost like and i listen i don't

agree with none of that

i've got to be honest work hard man that

should be just an

absolute normal ask of any person and

that and that i always keep talking

about my kids because

they're a big part of my life but that's

all i talk about my kids when they talk

to me about school

football washing up you chill that's

what's been one of the great things that

we've had a lot of negativity about

the covid uh situation in this country

staying at home etc at home schooling

and one of the great things to come out

of it for us as a family

these kids know their chores and they're

doing them properly and that's why i say

do your choice right because them habits

there will lead on to

other things in your life going forward

your football stuff you won't take short

short cuts you're taking shortcuts over

your work shortcuts for your football

shortcuts make in your bed shortcuts

with your school work homework et cetera

it will all be the same you need high

standards everywhere but are you scared

that

because they've grown up within a

different circumstance to what you had

well i always have you true this

conversation what you're not going to

say

yeah like i'm trying to instill that in

in them

how do you do that when they live that's

like a really nice house and they've got

that is

that is the guy who comes up with this

the the the answers for that

is the main man right because it's so

difficult i was doing a podcast

yesterday with um

eddie hearn oh yeah and he's like the

generation my children are so his father

was

well off successful and he was where my

children are now and he was saying like

one of the things that he was he was

scared of being that rich kid

yeah which i mean and so he done

everything not to go out and work

and to go and have a hard hard

hard-working mentality and to

be a success himself our friend tomorrow

is the same um

exactly so um all three of them by the

way i like that all three of them

come on your kids which i mean they are

exactly the same in terms of

they've gone out to they never had to

work their parents

would spoil them and they've all

knuckled down and said yeah we've been

given an opportunity

now you've got to go and execute and

they've gone executed beyond belief yeah

and i see

mahmoud who's of boohoo

who's the father of omar and the guys

and that's what i say to a man you must

be so happy man

what do you mean your kids man what

they're doing

how hard they work created these wicked

businesses but you gave them

opportunity but what they've done with

that you can't you can't be disappointed

he said no man he said that

for me to sit here and just see them

what they're doing what they're doing

that's where i want to be man

and it doesn't matter how much money you

make or how big of a business business

my success as a parent is that my kids

get up every day

they got a work ethic and they do stuff

to the best of their ability if they can

if they do that whether whatever job

they're in

they do that and i think you've done

you've laid the foundations for good

a good life for your kids whether it's

in

you know you talk there about having

high standards been one of the really

important things for your kids

this is something that clearly you know

was demonstrated when you got to old

trafford

and you joined manchester united um with

for that record transfer

but how did how did they create high

standards at old trafford

versus the other clubs you'd played at

what you know west ham and leeds etc

what was it they were doing

that kept those standards so high you

then also talk about going to qpr and

seeing low standards

and a certain type of negativity in the

changing room but what was it that they

were doing

or not doing because i want to create

high standards in my team and within my

life so

[Music]

good habits right every day good habits

whether it's punctuality again work

ethic

attention to detail intensity

when you're training on a training pitch

respecting each other

but all those things just they come

together and it creates a culture

at the club and i've been at west town

i've been at leeds

two very good clubs great clubs um

but they they didn't have that that

culture

which meant there was ability to win but

it starts from somewhere so alex

alex ferguson already won aberdeen so he

he knew how to create that culture

he went to maine united didn't have that

winning mentality at the time when he

went there

he created that and it all stems i

always think great leadership is

definitely what gives you an opportunity

to be successful and i

i noticed that throughout my career and

when you've you've set the foundations

and you've created that culture you

don't as a

as a leader have to be there every day

in that sense he was at a training

ground every day

how many times do you think he came into

our change room no idea

you wouldn't fill one hand really no

never came in a change room

in the training ground we're there every

day because he he knew that the culture

was set and then he had lieutenants

like me giggsy gary neville etc who were

then

filtering that down to any of the

younger players on the new signs

who didn't know the culture yet and then

then those players became the

the culture leaders and so it was it was

crazy man

and even for instance if he wasn't at

the training ground watching training

the training intensity might drop that

little

one percent two percent but you'd notice

it because the manager's not there

because he wasn't in the building

because he wasn't he didn't you didn't

feed him that aura that

he could be on his phone making bets

which he normally would be not

interested in training but his presence

alone was enough

and it just made when you look back and

you think this leadership is just key

and we're talking about investing

earlier yeah you know investing in the

the leader the people yeah the people

like it's so important i think and

i think every industry it's like that

football's where i'm from and that's

what it's like there but i see what

since i've retired

that's replicated in other industries

hundred percent isn't it funny as well

with culture

because you're right what you said there

is basically like what i've

something i used to think of social

change which is if a culture is strong

enough new people become like the

culture

if this culture is weak the culture

becomes like the new people 100

yeah i mean you couldn't have put it any

better

and i'll give you an example like

and again i didn't i didn't say it as

eloquently as that one husband football

but

berbatov came to maine united oh yeah

casual babs

he was wicked player beautiful touch

sexy looking footballer wicked

and before big champions league again my

fingers barcelona

he just weren't working hard enough for

the team and

i need i had the ball on this side of

the pitch and i needed him to come over

and help

he's just walking that and i ended up

just kicking the ball off and going

crazy

will you do get over wait when i get

over

then we'll do it and that's again that's

not our culture

at barcelona they play they wait that's

their culture that's not our culture

you want to play barcelona away go

barcelona here it's not the same

and if you don't buy into our culture

you won't be here long

and that's the way it was at united if

you came and you weren't in the co you

didn't buy into the culture

and immerse yourself in it and become

part of the fabric of the place

you weren't there more than a year or

two or you definitely wasn't an integral

member of that squad

and so it was definitely like you say

the culture is just

you have to become part of that culture

that you go into if it's strong enough

you see this in business it's crazy you

should do i feel like the perspective

you've got from being in that changing

room and understand because this it's

the same principles in business

it was the same at social chain and when

we grew the company and i realized that

i had to be like did you drive that a

hundred percent

and my like it got to the point where

what you've described is

people would understand who we were

without us having to say

and you'd have your disciples basically

introducing new people to the company

and going that's not a social chain

thing to do and we'd get that all the

time you'd say your people in office

okay and for example and the crazy the

other point i was going to say is

when the culture's that strong you it's

so easy to see when someone doesn't fit

well

they don't stand out we had you know

someone start on their first day at

social chain

and they're doing their initiation and

then they at the end of the initiation

they did two middle fingers and then

walked back to their desk

i said go get him we fired him he's gone

first day at social chain and then the

second the second instance where and it

sends a message to the team

because they i never knew it was

instinctive to me i said that's not the

same person get them out there was

another instance where we had a girl

join

who someone had hired and they told me

that she used to like bully people at

her last place and she had like a really

bad attitude and stuff and actually one

of the guys two of the guys in our team

said oh yeah we used to work with her

and she was a bit of a bully so

uh i i remember having the conversation

and i said you can't

like in a very very nice way i said she

she can't be here tomorrow

because that's not who we are here and

that my team were like but we need her

for this client we need her for this

project i was uncompromising i said no

we're not having her here

i don't care if we lose the job you know

i can't i say to my team

i can't have my name attached to a

culture like where we have people in it

who are like that so she's gone today

we'll figure it out if we lose the

client whatever and and it wasn't until

years later that you hear the team come

back to you and they say that moment

where you

you weren't willing to let that person

be needed in the team because they

weren't right for the culture

the team said that to me and that's

exactly what i hear from you i'm not

blowing to make up my own ass because i

didn't realize that you've recognised

that

it was it was it wasn't intentional it

was i just

wanted to enjoy my life in the company

to be a really really clear certain way

and i felt that that's what we needed to

do to succeed and in hindsight

and as you say it to me i'm like oh yeah

it was being unnegotiable right yeah and

that's what cerex ferguson was great at

if he saw something that was going to be

detrimental to the culture of the club

it was out that was non-negotiable even

if you needed them

so you look at roy keane yeah he's the

captain was the leader

the rule's been broken you're gone david

beckham

peak of his powers going out of a spice

girl

bringing all sorts of eyeballs to the

football club making an international

play

see you later yap stam the best center

half in the world at the time

said something about some of the players

in a book or something goodbye

rude van isteroy the best number nine in

the world at the time

goodbye like if you don't

fit the culture and you don't adhere to

the rules that are there

good night and we'll move on and we'll

build around other people

it's great it's like and where at the

time you sit there and you think bex you

can't sell beck's man

jesus who's going to come in like it's

like

number seven sells all the shirts like

everyone loves him everywhere we go

bex is like beatles like crazy

same with rudra and history you're

thinking how are we going to score goals

now man who's gonna squash the goals

rooney and and ronaldo are really young

still inexperienced

but he had that belief and that vision

just to like it was the culture over

everything

that's a big club no one's bigger than

the club it's so true man

and again like you say that reverberates

around a dressing room

right you better stay in line you better

just like live by the rules that are

here already

and stay part of that culture the hard

work the intensity

the respect and so that you

he would dig out the most experienced

player who hasn't even done anything and

you'd sit there and go what like

what are you shouting me for but he was

doing that to you because he knew you

could take it but the effect that i have

on the young ones or the other ones

which i mean so playing the mind games

man i love it it's good but you only

it's the mad thing is anyone you're in

it like you're saying you're talking

about social change you probably didn't

realize at the time

but when you sit back and you're outside

and you look back in that bubble you

think

[ __ ] man yeah that's why i didn't think

about it but that's why i've done it

yeah he's right yeah and i'm right now

or i'm wrong whatever it is

i mean that's how we think about like

certain things that fergie done you

think actually

he weren't just lucky man he actually

obviously was

plotting and planning that type of stuff

i am i wonder how much of that stuff was

intentional with him though in terms of

like

he i'm sure he wasn't going in the back

room and planning it it's just like

surely it's just like who he was

and i sometimes think you know you get

managers that will come into clubs and

they'll try and be like fergie

but you can't because you can't act for

that long and that consistently

because from what you're saying about

fergie it's like it's not like four

things he's doing it's a thousand

things he's doing consistently which

show his values

right and you can't act for 27 years

whatever it is across a thousand touch

points so it makes me feel like

how do you teach that like it was it

wasn't phil almost was like it wasn't

just instinctive to fergie

yeah i think it was instinctive he was

he's that's just him and don't forget

his experience as well would have played

a big part in that

he was at the club for like 26 or so

years 27 years so that's there's a

valuable amount of experience gained in

that time but

i always look at it like when i went

into the main united change room i sat

there

and just looked around and thought who's

good at what and let me just take

elements of

these people and add it to my my game

and my

preparation and my recovery and that's

what i've done ryan giggs was great at

recovery and

preparation done yoga and stuff like

that took that out of these

of his book roy keane leadership the way

he demanded

standards on a daily basis skulls these

best levels in training every day like

all them think i was just trying to

try to be like little peop parts of

different people

and then that allows hopefully for you

to grow into a better person a better

player etc

and i think that's the same with with

other industries and business since i've

retired it's like

you go in and try and be like someone

else you're gonna fail because you can't

be like the original but if you're

taking bits from elsewhere you might be

able to get beyond that

what you see as the best because you're

getting more you're taking more good

things from that person but then from

various other people to build maybe past

that and that's the way i try and

work with stuff now in my life there's

no one person i'm going to make that's

going to make me

the best at what i want to be but a

group

and taken from everywhere i've got a

better chance

people never talk about the things that

fergie was bad at well roy keane does

but

other than that i never hear people

saying and i've got his book somewhere

knocking around as well but

you never hear players talking about

some of the things where you think you

know i actually think he would have gone

been more successful if he didn't do

that thing

do you know if it's weird when people

die or when people retire

yeah you only remember the good stuff

really interesting you only think about

what they

their their existence before becomes

magnified and

you they're built up even bigger

sometimes

and fergie i think that's with him as

well because you just don't

you don't think i can think of instances

or or tactics you've got wrong

that's easy to find but but he'd always

make stuff right it was weird like um

even for instance the anti-racism stuff

and the situation was only sort of

documenting my brother yeah yeah yeah so

he went to a couple awards actually

yesterday

as well yeah so he um

the situation happened with him and john

terry

and i decided not to wear the next or

one of during that period

once a year all the teams are given

t-shirts show races and the red card or

kick racism out one of the campaigns

i wasn't willing to wear it because i

didn't believe that they

supported enough in the durian that's

that time so i said i'm not wearing it

he went crazy find me i was like

we end up winning the game which was

okay was lucky but the next day

i went into his office to just try and

explain to him why i hadn't won

the t-shirt and to be fair he said you

know what i understand

and i'm sorry for the way i reacted

but like stuff like that he might make a

mistake or he'd done that wrong but he'd

always rectify it always come back

around you get you back around somehow

and because he was just like a i don't

know he just

he knew how to deal with people he knew

how to treat people to get the best out

of him for what he's main goal was

how'd you teach that i don't know man

that's just i think that's something

that's inside

being able to deal with people read

people treat your team

do i mean so that they're running

through brick walls for you because you

come in a room and he'd say to you

you're not playing

and i'd be you'd want to scream and

you'd be like blood would be boiling

but you'd leave the room and you're

going to change room

and you're sitting in there gene

everyone up come on boys not sulking

because he's told you tuesday you're

playing because i need you for that game

you missed this one this is a big game

but you're going to play on tuesday

like normally you miss a game you you

want to go home and cry

about it i mean but he's managed to

build you back up and that's my

management

and in any industry that's that's like a

massive part of

again the culture but maintaining

sustaining a successful company of a

successful football club

you need to be able to build people pick

them up knock them down sometimes but be

able to keep them on that track with you

the contradiction i hear with within

like the story you recount of sir alex

versus the one i see in the newspapers

is you hear about the you know kicking

the football boot at beckham and this

guy who on this who on the sidelines

looks like he's out of control but what

you're describing

is like super self-aware yeah calculated

and he's actually

pretending to be out of control when he

needs to be we used to talk about all

the time sashimi and emmanuel vidic

and veda is a deep guy loves talking

about deep style gets deep into

stuff yeah he loves it like it's just a

matter he just loves like to

be on behind well how is he thinking

about that etc

just always talk about the manager and

like

you look back and say anything

everything he done was like calculated

like

the way he spoke on the tv blaming the

ref

so very rarely did he come on he didn't

come on tv and ever hammer none of the

players individually

we could lose a game and the referee

would be the [ __ ] the back page the next

day

but he's taking the heat of us he's

making us think about it's not us

we're not down in the doldrums it's

because of the referee that's dangerous

sometimes

you've got ideas about yourself

accountability but he makes there's

enough self accountability in the

building

but also the focus is over there now not

on us as a team so we go again

without that pressure oh they've lost

they're not as good anymore

but the referee was a reason so i mean

just like that's just like calculated

this is what i'm doing for the goodness

of my team and the betterment of my team

is good man

but people think anger and like you were

a player that wasn't wasn't afraid to

shout someone i heard you talking about

some of the players you gave a hard time

like anderson et cetera

what what is still yeah in the what's

that group

yeah really yeah what role does anger

play in leadership then because you see

it in football

but if if i were to start screaming at

people in the same

way that you did to i don't know berber

or whatever imagine if i just [ __ ]

kicked this table and said

what the [ __ ] the camera is not working

i would be i'd

be cancelled everyone would walk out

yeah i talk about this with my missus

quite a lot now we like

some of the stuff that we are when we're

talking about memories and whatnot and

how we spoke to someone so

or what's happening in the change room

would never happen in the office

because it's like you say it's like that

that relationship's over

it's gone too far whereas you could have

a fight at football and then you're

shaking hands and having a laugh in the

shower after

it's so different it's just a different

way of of working but

i think it's understanding people i

don't think you treat any two people the

same

in that sense like the blanket treatment

i don't think is the best way to treat a

team

because everyone's different everyone

takes advice differently everyone takes

criticism

differently so you've got to be able to

pick the right people to be able to

shout out to pick the right people

you've got to get an arm around

and and that's about as again a manager

a captain knowing that team knowing that

play that the players individually

all this coming into work and ghosting

everybody

is mad i don't get it i don't think you

can create that environment

for success if you're going to come in

and not know nobody

and that's another one of these so

alex's great traits is that he knew

everything about everyone

like if you're you're my granddad i was

in hospital once met my granddad

probably twice

in the uh players lounge after a game

knew my granddad's favorite drink brandy

the flower was turned up on my mom's

house which i mean it's like

that stuff there then people are coming

to work for you every day

after stuff like that it's little things

little details not any time out of your

diary really

his pa probably done it all yeah but his

name's at the bottom

it's like big it's little

little percentages like that are just a

key it's funny because

those little gestures help help you know

that he does care about you regardless

of what happens on the training ground

or in the match

fundamentally he cares about you and

wants you to do well and he's

you know what i mean you're not enemies

you are in so i think

by him saying that's the foundation it's

clear that having that as a foundation

allows him to put pressure on in the

right places it seems

yeah and he and you're not his mate yeah

ever well really no you're not you're

not he's mate i speak to him more now

than i did when i played

really because there was that line

and that he felt was always needed to be

there that we can have a little laugh

here and there but in the end of the day

i'm the manager

you guys do your thing there and have a

laugh etc but then there's that line you

don't go past

so but you just got it right and i think

that's down to experience as well

he would have learned that and a lot of

the guys so you say he was he was even

crazier before you guys came

when he was younger so he's obviously

work

and he worked out as well did the new

generation of player

couldn't take that

anger and that craziness

like the old generation like probably my

generation probably the last generation

that he could do that with

the next ones the younger ones the

andersons the nannies the ronaldo's etc

that's not the way that they would they

would they don't respond as well to that

type of

criticism and anger and aggressiveness

what was that anguish you ever saw him

too many times not too many times the

times when he kicked the boot at bex's

head was it was a

and you're in that crazy one yeah that

was crazy what happened

wouldn't it be great if we could make

looking after yourself your nutrition

and your health

cool again and i think this is

ultimately what hule has done in my life

and as i reflect on the last couple of

years that huel has been the easiest way

for me to become a better human and for

me being a better human meant having

better health

it meant better having mental health

more energy being more focused in my

work

and that's exactly what you've done for

me i hope we can make being healthier

cool especially as we emerge from this

lockdown where we've all realized

how important and foundational health is

and i think here's a great way to do

that try it out give it a go

everyone that has you know get lots of

photos on instagram and twitter of

people that have tried your

and started their huel journey brings a

little bit of joy to my heart because

not only

have you um are you a listener of the

podcast but also because i know that

you're on a journey to make your

your life and your health a lot better

and that if you know think about all the

sponsors i could have had to have a

sponsor that i genuinely believe

can help you change your life is a

privilege um that i'm glad to know

what was that angriest you ever saw him

too many times not too many times the

times when he kicked the boot at bex's

head was a

and you're in that crazy one yeah that

was crazy what happened

it was uh it was mad it was it was funny

man it was actually funny i gotta be

honest i can't lie

but the manager was he kicked the boot

in anger because he asked bex to do

something tactically that he didn't

carry out

and he booted and listen anybody i don't

care what ronaldo's playing today on

messi

wouldn't have hit the target the way hit

the target it was it was so clean

and the ball went in slow-mo like bang

and it hit him in the head and then

obviously beck scott was upset got up

and

i remember the gaffer was devastated you

could tell he could see when he looked

at him he sat down he was just slumped

almost

like he that's not what he'd done he

kicked the boot for he kicked it in

anger and it accidentally hit

backs in the head so he looked

devastated of it but

that was one that was i had a few

scrapes of him in terms of

i didn't agree with things that he'd

done a couple of times and i was

screaming and he didn't he didn't take

too well to it and

he lost it and he just would go purple

over the top of you and just spray you

screaming in front of you like that like

crazy

so but he was uh what it was it was

never personal which is that why you

respected it and you kind of it kind of

it kind of always was washed away

because

he you knew that deep down he wanted

just want you to do well

i mean it wasn't vindictive it wasn't

personal just do what i'm telling you to

do

you will win i heard you say that that

culture isn't there now

it's it's all friendly now on it

everyone's mates everyone's like for

instance

everyone's mates and commenting on each

other's posts on social media

so you're more attached to someone

you're more involved with someone

whereas before i would only see certain

players twice a year

home and away so i've got no attachment

to you so for to me have a bit of venom

or to go at you a little bit was normal

and i've got

no qualms about doing that because i

ain't going to see you again don't care

i might see you at england camp or

something like that but i don't i slack

three or four times a year so we're

colleagues exactly

we're not really matey whereas now in

the tunnel they're all shaking cuddling

yeah man comment on your post you have a

day

it's very different i'm not saying it's

bad but it's just different is it bad

so i don't know it's just like it's it's

different so going into

into battle into a game

i've got no emotional ties or no social

media ties to anybody

so i can there seemed to be that bit

more it

i don't know if there's more passion

before to now but it seemed to be like

there was yeah

because i think all of this stuff is

social media makes it a bit more fluffy

and people are hugging and shaking hands

and whatnot

now because they've spoken or had a

message or liked a post

very different me my my friends at my

manchester united chat when uh

one of the observations that we have all

the time is like why is why is everyone

been so nice to each other and

you i remember last week there was a

tweet went out from one of the

united um press people and it was just a

quote something harry mcguire had said

on the field

and he basically screamed i don't know

someone else yeah i need to like get

[ __ ] back in line or whatever

it's like trending on twitter yeah yeah

because i don't see it because you don't

see it anymore

and then and then also i you know love

him love him or whatever but

watching uh ollie fist bump the managers

with a smile on his face

we've been grown up as united fans with

us we would

fergie would look [ __ ] furious to

even have to look at the

opposing manager and and it just feels

different now and then we look at where

we are and how we're performing in the

big games and we're not winning like we

used to

and we're all saying oh that you know

we're coming like arsenal or something

but we everyone always like clings on to

the history in it and

that's that's the problem as a football

fan i'm the same like you just want it

to be like it was before

please right but it's never going to be

the same

it may be a successful or even more

successful one day but it will never be

the same

so our expectation then we'll sometimes

just have to change a little bit but

yeah i mean again like it was coming in

anyway because like for instance i

remember joe rpk hugging

and fist pumping et cetera in the tunnel

with fabregas

and we were mad rivals we've asked on

that point like pizzagate and all that

stuff

and he got hammered after that pk in our

change room are you doing

before a game you're sitting in a chat a

lot or or without make fun of him a

little bit there's two different ways

you

ridicule and get someone in line either

humor or being firm

and you probably got both but it was it

was that was a

you could sense a change coming it was

coming and obviously social media i

think has accelerated that definitely

ed woodward as well there's a lot of

controversy surrounding him at the

moment again because for better for work

no not yet no yeah when the when uh

when we can travel a little bit more

we'll uh i think he'll he'll come on but

um

i remember hearing the story about the

exit treatment that you had with him

and i wondered if you were still

somewhat bitter about that i heard you

know

one of your last games at the club and

he comes into the training room and

tells you that you're you're not going

to be playing for the club anymore you

didn't get your send off

yeah of course i think there's no

there's nothing that anyone could tell

me that wouldn't

make me feel that was the wrong way

would fergie have done that no thank you

zero no

you'd have told me before the end of the

season because you know what it mean but

the difference is that fergie was a

footballer

and he knows what it means he knows what

it is

to be able to say thank you for your

support etc

just have that little runway to ascend

off now listen i understand not

everybody can have it that way but if

you've got

if you know and you've got the

opportunity to give someone the best

possible route out of a situation

you give it to them and my situation i

think it was you could see down the line

from

month a month two months before that

that you knew what was gonna happen with

me

so give me the opportunity to have the

best possible send off given the time

given the relationship that i built with

the club

so that was my my only discrepancy of

the whole way it worked out because it

wasn't like oh actually a knee-jerk

situation knee-jerk decision so but i

think listen

ed knows how i feel about it but we've

moved on past that i'll speak to him on

the phone

about various different things anywhere

we meet up sometimes so it's cool

but those small moments that's an

isolated incident

but that's that isolated incident is

attached to a wider philosophy

in the same way that fergie had this

like wider philosophy of like you know

sending your

your granddad the the flowers and that's

a tattoo wider philosophy so although

that's just one instance

i think the risk that i would see and

when i hear things like that i think

well

that same philosophy of like not really

caring being that empathetic

has got to be popping up in other places

right like oh 100

and that again we've said culture about

10 times already in this

conversation yeah but that's that's

part of a culture yeah like

there has to be like you say compassion

empathy

respect as a family right like that's

what the club was

and that was the way i used to explain

man united i left leeds which was like a

family

a small i say this is a smaller version

without obviously the success but a

smaller version in terms of the people

here

been here for 30 years 40 years 20 years

my dad used to work here my mom used to

work here that's a family club

man united was that when i was there

my fear is that it becomes something

else some of the waiting stuff i had a

box at my united mm-hmm

and it's funny this is a staggering

thing but for me because you don't think

of you know

the waiting staff in the box are gonna

notice a cultural shift at the club

right but they would tell me they they

said to me you know when fergie and

david gill were here

it was different how did it touch the

waiting staff that served me because

they know

all their names yes that's what they

said to me they know all their names

they had a relationship david gilman had

a relationship with the the person

giving me a steak

and it and i just thought that was

staggering that this you know

anything like how strong the culture

must be and how important it must be for

the waiter

giving me you know some chips to be like

it's different now the dinner lady at

the training ground i actually spoke to

her on the way here funny that's just me

a voice note but it didn't lady carroll

she could have been with director

manager or david gill

like first name terms

banter that had been spread over a

number of years so they could go back

and have a proper

back and forth he knew the name of the

groundsman

but it was like and and if if

if i'm at man united now that is part

where i'm going

that that has to be recreated bring that

back

because that's a strength like i said

before about strength in numbers

that's the foundation of the football

club people come in that place and think

oh my god

they're all made united here they're all

feel part of it

that that creates does that start with

fergie and david at the top

yeah i think it has to and that's why i

look back on things like that and like

you you speak to any of the people that

work there that was

a big part of it because everyone thinks

it's the is the first eleven

the the team the squad the first team

that play

that's the main united it's not it's the

fans

and it's all the people that work behind

the scenes to enable that first level

and that team that squad to go out there

and perform

if there's people out around that aren't

working that's what the manager used to

say

all these people the kit man the physio

nutritionist the dinner lady etc these

lot help you enable you to be successful

so don't forget that i mean and all

those people have an expectation of the

performance and like the they all become

winners like as a united fan growing up

i was like we win yeah 100 and and you

know

as a fan i was like you know we come and

we win and then at some point when

fergie left i'm like i'm not sure really

what happens

sometimes yeah yeah and you know that

crazy thing fergie had in the last

couple of minutes of every game where

you thought we're gonna [ __ ] win this

there's only two minutes left

but somehow but you know like the things

i just mentioned there about the club as

well that does

that is a byproduct of success as well

it that becomes easier

it's like a self-fulfilling yeah right

exactly when you're winning

it's like everything when you're

successful and you're winning

everything's kind of run smoothly

doesn't it

yeah and then obviously when things

start to go a little bit wrong you see

so many more bumps in a row so many more

splinter groups come out and start

pointing the finger etc so

i just think that it's keeping it

getting that culture right and getting

the people who feel part of the club

and then you win with that as well

there's no better

kind of then you've got to defend it

right you've got to defend the culture

again because the culture is the thing

that made you win

yeah and so you might get some big

people getting too big for their boots

or whatever or distracted

and then fergie's just got this great

reputation of bit defending that culture

as the most important thing and are you

that's people say why did he win how did

he win for 20 odd years no one else has

managed to do that in the modern era

and it's just that but it's it's i

always put it down to as well things

like

dedication desire but he was always the

first in a training ground

i tried to try and beat him to get a

training ground sometimes take my kids

to school and get there like

we used to start like half nine you have

to be in a half nine

i used to get in sometimes at eight

o'clock and these cars there already

last to leave most of the time uh yes

that's again that goes back to the point

of saying about

showing your kids rather than telling

them be early be it

just be there you're there then they

know he's always there

you can't be late why are you late the

manager says he's been 26 years

and he's early every day and you're not

he's obviously prepping like you don't

do your prep work in the gym why

i remember i keem pulled a meeting

called a meeting because he thought the

young players weren't

doing the extras and why are you going

home before

an ex that experienced player there that

we said to them yeah when you're

you're in the start of the ladder what's

we called an actual meeting

yeah so that he just said to the lads

listen guys like after training all

coming in or before training all come in

a change room

and everyone sat down and he's like

listen i've got to say it because i'm

seeing it every day and it ain't good

for the club

some of you young boys i'm seeing you

and some even the older the players are

a little bit older than that but

how can you be going home before him

he's doing extras working outside or he

goes in the gym or before training i see

sansa doing that and you're just messing

about in

in the uh canteen or something like that

it's valuable time don't miss it

short career things like that but that's

again

the manager allowing people to manage a

change room and that's how it was there

you had people that managed to change

room

and you had the manager that oversaw it

all what was the difference between some

players that arrive at manchester united

and ultimately end up reaching their

potential and then some

that don't and there's been a lot of you

know well written about players that

never reached their potential

is was there a commonality that you saw

that made it because i'm like gary

neville i'm like he wasn't the most

i like the guy he's actually managed me

once in this charity game

like the guy but he didn't strike me as

the most

naturally talented player at work but he

felt yeah

and then work dedication attention to

detail

application on a daily basis like this

is the thing a lot of people think i've

worked hard for two weeks and i've got i

haven't i haven't got any rewards out of

it

the manager's still not playing me i'll

give up no

that's got to be we're talking before a

lifestyle hard work every day is a

lifestyle

that should be like the standard that's

the standard that is here

and you've got to be at that every day

there's none of this taking your foot

off the pedal

because it's difficult carlos carroll

said to me you can't just switch it on

and off

like that mentality that intensity the

dedication the hard work on a daily but

you can't just go

i work hard on monday to wednesday

thursday friday i'll just chill and then

saturday

switch it on again habits

lifestyle all the time like that so when

it comes to match time it's not a big

shift

because your body can't do it that your

mind can't deal with that if it's

normalized

this is normal on a saturday three

o'clock sixty thousand people screaming

100 million people around the world

that's not pressure do this every day

one of the like alienating things when

people might hear you talk and they

think oh well

almost intimidating it's like well rio's

mentality is just so

[ __ ] like disciplined and you know

he's got it now and

i did listen i weren't perfect this is

what i was gonna ask tell me about tell

me how you weren't perfect yeah i went

perfect it took me a long time to start

understanding like your body

understanding your mindset and my state

of mind had to be

a tip-top condition both mentally and

physically on a

game day and west ham i didn't have it

leads i didn't have it because i was

inconsistent

i was really i trained hard but then i'd

be going out every

every other night i'd go out four or

five times a week parties

pissed like west ham i don't remember a

lot of results or

certain things when people say what

about that game when you

i actually can't remember i was that i

used to be out and get

pissed so often and then i got to

maintain and i just

was surrounded by people that had won

and i was desperate to win

so what do you do to win i'm gonna copy

of him him him like we spoke about

before and then you become part of that

and then you realize that none of these

lot are going out all the time

so if i'm gonna go out and continue that

lifestyle i had before

my levels are obviously always going to

be a bit below these guys because you

can't

sustain that you're always working from

a less

from a lower standpoint so i changed

that and

listen i still made mistakes but my

intentions

and my desire was to always be as good

as i could be i wanted to be better than

veda

vidic john terry sol campbell i need to

be the best when people talk about the

best center back i need to be the first

name on their lips so what

what can i do i was not obsessed with it

you know i mean and

why the lads wouldn't have probably

known how

obsessed i was with it because i would

never show that really but inside

the thought that someone thought that

someone else is a better center back

than me used to

like it would eat away at me why

because i just pride ego we all got egos

you want to be the best

and i was never ashamed myself to be to

feel like that i'll say that that

i didn't say it at the time because it

etiquette it's not the thing to do in

american sports they do it they talk

like that because i wish we was more

because naturally i'm that type of

person i would say it i think i'm the

best on it

so i don't care that i would say now i

thought i was the best centerback

but i was always i just wanted to be the

best whether i was or not

it's for other people to decide but i

was that was my always my intention

you and vidic partnership a lot of my

friends at the moment that's where i've

been

i'm a big fan of harry maguire and uh

what he does

mainly because i from what i hear he's

one of the only leaders in the back line

like you know always shouting what was

it that made you and vidic so successful

as a partnership because

my friends they'll do anything to have

you guys back

what was it about you two because you're

known as

in my opinion the best centre-back

partnership we've ever had that's why

i'm here because i knew you'd say that i

appreciate that man don't know man

he had attributes that just complimented

mine and vice versa

he was a he wanted to go and attack

every ball okay when the ball got kicked

in the skies

he just saw one thing and that was the

ball

and he was better at that than me okay

but

i read stuff and would clean up around

all of that and

was more of i don't know i read the game

probably a little bit different to him

and

but at the same time i was capable of

going up and winning the ball and then

he'd do that with me

whether he was as good at me at cleaning

up on that for other people to decide

but like

i i don't know it was just we just

compliment each other and what it was

there was a pride about

our defendant us too so you see a lot of

people it's like me

i'm the best i want to be the best which

is true but the overriding factor of me

wanting to be the best is that we don't

concede and we're a partnership

i'm going to be i've got your back and

that's what you just say before a game

video you go up i'm behind you don't

worry when i got you're behind me yeah

that's all it was all the time you

challenge i'm behind you don't worry

just go for the ball go for the man take

the man and the ball

i'm here if it goes wrong and is that

having that sense of security for each

other

there was a chant of vidiq's chat about

him being a bit of a murderer yeah yeah

crazy how did he how did he feel about

that and like yeah he's quite an

unassuming guy he's really like he's not

really taken

or by anything right did they say that

about me oh cool it's good

not bad not bad and then carries on with

laughs like he's really just

chilled man he's so different to what

he's like if he's just a chill guy

he's intense guy to be fair intense

and some players may have found him at

times quite moody at times and just

really like in with what he's doing

because he's so intense

and he would really like to think about

a lot of stuff and probably overthink

certain situations but i got on really

well with him he's one of my

my closest guys at maine united when i

was there

from now yeah i talked to him now on the

texts and stuff he's living in milan at

the moment

yeah one of the things that um has

happened since your playing days is

there's been a huge rise in the

conversation around mental health

wasn't a conversation back then really

um even even for me

growing up that didn't know what it

meant i'll be completely honest i

thought mental health was

um someone goes crazy psychiatrist yeah

yeah just a stray jacket or something

that's what i we always thought it was

that's all

the depiction of someone that's lost

their mind and

um we've come to learn about it in a

much different way now we view it as a

sort of intrinsic part of health but

everyone has