I'm going to just be honest. There were

times where Joe Biden greatly

disappointed me and frankly, you know,

angered me. Like on the day of my debate

with Trump, the stakes were so high. And

the president calls and he said to me,

it just was so unnecessary.

>> And you took something from that

>> that his motivation was all about

himself.

>> Do you think he wanted you to win the

election?

Madame Vice President, there's nothing

you said I couldn't ask you.

>> Cuz I have a lot to say. And so IT

>> OKAY. SO, do you wish you hadn't ran?

>> No. But I do regret that we did not have

more time.

>> And then the debate that came before

with Biden and Trump, it was a car

crash.

>> I mean, this was clearly an individual

that was very much struggling.

>> He didn't want that debate. I could tell

something was a little off.

>> How do you know?

>> Well, I could start with this.

>> And what about not going on Joe Rogan's

show? I definitely regret that we didn't

do it, but there was a lot of games

being played.

>> And then on that night when the election

hasn't gone your way, what would I have

seen if I was a fly on the wall in the

room?

>> I was in a state of shock. Like I

haven't felt anything similar to the

emotion I felt that day other than the

grief I felt when my mother died and I

knew what was going to happen to our

country. So I had a hard time

reconciling that we can't still do

something about it because I grew up in

an environment where everyone was

fighting for justice and for equality.

So, I do think about how different it

could have been, but sometimes the fight

takes a while.

>> Does that mean that you're going to run

again?

>> I

I see messages all the time in the

comments section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you.

>> Madame Vice President,

how are you doing?

>> I am well. I am well. I mean all things

considered I am well my family is good

health so I start there but otherwise

you know it's a it's a it's a troubling

time

>> what are the what are the full range of

emotions when you said all things

considered what are the full what's the

full picture there

>> everything from

grateful and feeling very blessed

to extremely ly

troubled, disappointed,

concerned

of the state of our country and by

extension the world. Like a lot of

people who are watching the news and

reading the news, there's a state of

anxiety what will happen next. I often

have found myself saying to people, it

may get worse before it gets better. And

so the knowledge of that perhaps the

anticipation of that I think keeps me

and many others on edge.

>> Do you believe that? Do you believe it's

it could get worse before it gets

better?

>> I think it's very possible. Every day I

I because actually during the book tour

I've I've said it to audiences and in

one city and then the next day something

happens.

There's a lot that's very unpredictable

about this administration. Although

there is almost all of it that I did

predict.

Now, I know you you only had 107 days

>> to potentially intervene in the course

of history, but when you see these

things playing out that you're referring

to that incite those feelings you have

of frustration,

>> um a little bit of anxiety, etc.,

>> do do you feel a sense of like

responsibility in a weird way because

because

>> yeah,

>> there was a percentage chance of sort of

intervening in these things. This is a

complex question to ask, but it's

>> Mhm. I do think about how different it

could have been.

>> Mhm.

>> I do think about it in the context of

the number of people who are being

impacted in such a horrible way. I think

of it in terms of the number of people

who are existing and living in utter

fear right now, afraid of being attacked

or afraid of being targeted with hate.

um much less misinformation. I Yeah, I

do. And I and I know that the the race

that I ran for president of the United

States, the outcome of that election is

what has happened

and it would have been different. It

would have been very different. I try

not to allow myself to think too much

this way. I will tell you that because I

for better and worse really

do like to be centered on the present.

So, so let's go. I want to understand

the the set of circumstances that

created someone like you because you're

an anomaly. There's a lot of firsts that

appear in your career, but if we if we

start at the beginning, what is the

context that shapes someone to become

such an anomaly in their professional

career?

>> My parents and the community that raised

me. My mother arrived from India in the

United States at the age of 19 by

herself.

My mother naturally at that young age

became aligned with the civil rights

movement

>> in in um Berkeley and Oakland,

California. Met my father who had been a

national scholar in Jamaica.

They fell in love and here I am. My

sister and I were born and we were born

in an environment where everyone was

fighting for justice and for freedom and

for equality. every message we got was

you are important and you have a duty to

figure out how you're going to

participate. I I noticed this as I was

reading through your story, how service

and helping others seems to be so

interwoven into your DNA.

>> And even we spoke to Doug

>> Uhhuh.

>> your husband and he was telling me a

story about your first date with him.

>> Uhhuh. What did he tell you? Well,

apparently you made a you made a remark

on that first date that you're you're

here to help people and to serve people.

He told me many things. We we have a I

have many pages of what Duck said. Very

fascinating. He's um he's very in love

with you, by the way.

>> I'm very in love with my husband and

he's very funny. I hope you got a sense

of

>> He was hilarious guy.

>> Yeah. Well, he he and I had such

different careers, both of us being

lawyers, right? He went immediately into

private practice. I never wanted to be

in private practice. It was never about

money for me. was always about people

and how

could I do the work that was about

protecting people and giving people

dignity.

>> Why protecting people?

>> I I think there's a lot um that has to

do also maybe with birth order.

>> I'm the eldest.

>> And from the age of 2 years old, my

mother told me, "Take care of your

sister. Look out for your sister."

You've got all kinds of pictures. Canon,

I've been through everything.

>> Yeah. This is my sister Maya.

>> That's you protecting her.

>> And that's me protecting her. I grew up

also, you know, seeing my mother who was

a 5-ft tall brown woman with an accent

would be treated. She taught me this, my

extended family taught me. But then I

also witnessed

the importance of

making sure that all people that their

dignity is respected and protected. and

I because I you know I I have lived a

life to see where that doesn't always

happen.

>> So you decide to focus on law in public

practice. Um you have a phenomenal

career from that point onwards. It's

really remarkable what you're able to

accomplish and this is I guess where a

lot of the firsts come in because from

the age of 24 to 51 you rise from deputy

district attorney to California's

attorney general becoming the first

woman and first black person to hold

both roles. Um, and you led major

reforms in that time, including securing

$25 billion in homeowner relief after

the 2008 crisis, launching the back on

track LA rehabilitation program, and

making California the state the first

state to mandate body cameras for

justice justice agents and much more.

An incredible career up until that

point. That could have been it. You

could have bowed out at that point and

celebrated.

>> There's so much more to be done. There's

so much more to be done. Um, I think one

of my strengths and weaknesses is um, I

like to solve problems, but that means

that I tend to

once a problem has been addressed, move

on to the next one without maybe taking

the time to pat myself on the back

>> because now it's time to move on to the

next issue.

>> During your career, you you saw some

horrific things. That's the nature of

your job. You deal with the dark darkest

parts of reality.

>> Parts of human behavior and nature I've

seen. Yeah, you're right.

>> Give me give me some context there. What

does that mean in reality?

>> Well, for a while I specialized in child

sexual assault, which is about um

the most horrendous of

abuse and crime, which is an adult

abusing a child.

And

those cases were so difficult um for so

many reasons. I mean, there's a couple

that I remember in particular where I

just

where the children were so young that

they were um they wouldn't be able to

testify.

One was an elementary school little

girl. And I mean, I I remember going

into the bathroom of the courthouse and

crying

because I knew a jury

would not

have enough to convict

and um

you know, broke my heart. I mean, and I

I have thought about that little girl,

you know, not years and years and years

later. But those cases, you know, it's

the worst of human behavior, which is we

as a society should be in the business

of protecting children and protecting

their vulnerability so that they can

thrive. Um, but I've, you know, I've

prosecuted homicide cases. I've, um, you

know, I've prosecuted fraud cases. How

does how does one deal with all of this

stress and responsibility? And I'm not

just referring to your time as attorney

general, but even thereafter with

>> running for president and the ups and

downs of that, the public feedback, the

the pressure, the responsibility of

potentially running the, you know, the

the free world basically and becoming

the most powerful person on earth and

the ups, the downs, the attacks, the

>> the the child abuses. How does one

learn? Is there a framework you've

built? Is there are there ideas or

principles that you've developed to deal

with such pressure?

>> Well, this may sound trit, but I work

out every day.

>> Yeah.

>> I work out every morning, no matter how

little sleep I've had. Um, I just find

it to be just mind, body, and soul.

>> Have you changed over time?

>> Oh, for sure I've changed over time. The

pressure has changed in magnitude.

>> Um but the pressure that I feel in terms

of my sense of personal responsibility

>> has not changed. I I put a lot of

I I I hold myself to a very high

standard and um I tend to be a

perfectionist even though I am far from

perfect you know I mean even during the

107 days every night I would stay awake

thinking what more could I have done

with that one day

>> 24year-old Kamala Harris who starts as

that sort of uh becomes eventually

becomes the deputy district attorney. If

I sat her there

>> Uhhuh.

>> and you're sat there now as um madame

vice president, what would be the

notable differences in personality,

mentality,

in perspective?

>> Oh, that's interesting.

Well, I mean, I I don't know if that's

changed, but she was fearless.

>> She was fearless.

>> She was fearless. She didn't hear no, it

can't be done.

and whether it was the first case that I

had and I was a young prosecutor and I

was going through the files and it was a

Friday evening and I realized that the

person who had been arrested had young

children at home, a woman and all the

courts were shutting down and I went to

the courtroom and I asked the judge,

"Please take the bench again. She has

young children. She can't stay in over

the weekend.

And the clerk was like, "Nope, he's gone

for the day. He's leaving for the day."

And I would not leave. And they call the

case, you know, but not hearing no. I

just I um that has been probably a

throughine of my my life. I don't rest

easy with the idea that something is not

possible.

um at least I don't rest easy with it

without trying

>> to show that it is possible and that's

probably not changed. I also have

started to sit better with the idea that

but you can't change everyone.

>> Mhm.

>> How does that change your approach

knowing that you can't change everybody?

I'm better able to assess

a situation

to figure out what is the potential

there.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> And be perhaps a bit more realistic

without being I think jaded about it.

>> Yeah.

>> And I guess that's wisdom and

experiences.

>> Yeah. It comes with it comes with I

think a bit of experience

>> which allows you to be more efficient

and effective.

>> And that's right. Yeah.

>> That's exactly right. That's exactly

right because that is how I reconcile it

which is

>> the effort is better placed

>> somewhere else.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And at what point in this in this

journey did you realize that you wanted

to be president of the United States?

Like was was there a a lunch or a dinner

you had with Doug? When does that

decision get made in your career?

>> It was when I was in the Senate.

>> Yeah. I ran into a friend who came up,

Doug and I were at a basically a a

family table in a local restaurant

eating and he said to me, "You should

run for president." And it had not

occurred to me until then. It had not

occurred to me to run for president. I

There are people who are born thinking

they're going to be president. There are

people who look who look in the mirror

every day and see a president. I was not

one of those people. But then the

thought

it kind of germinated and then of course

being vice president and doing the work

of vice president of the United States I

met with over 150 world leaders,

presidents, prime ministers, chancellors

and kings. I've negotiated very

important

deals and and and issues on behalf of

the American people. Um I've spent

countless hours not only in the Oval

Office but the situation room and

traveling around the world. And so in

those 107 days, I was fully aware of not

only the importance of the job, but

fully aware that I had the experience

and knowledge to be able to do it

effectively.

>> I mean, this is one of the things I was

actually talking to a friend of mine

downstairs, Lucy Mangini, who sat out

there, and we were talking about this

idea of like, does imposter syndrome

ever leave you? And I imposter syndrome

is a bit of a loaded term,

>> but you kind of assume that people in

higher places than you are have some

like genetic or mental or some gift.

They have all the answers. But higher

you climb with your own continued

naivity, you start to suspect that no

one really

>> is genetically gifted or like has some

superpower that you don't have.

>> Right. And I'm wondering if you've

experienced that in your career where

the higher you've climbed, you've

realized that actually everybody up here

is like I'm like that like or I'm at

least on their level. Have you had that

experience in your career?

>> Yes, I have. And but I've also had the

imposttor syndrome experience and that

was when I was first elected DA

>> and I challenged then in the incumbent.

Um I started out at six points in the

polls which is six out of 100.

>> Uh you know people recently asked me how

about polls polls. Well, you know, if I

listened to polls, I would have never

run for my first office and therefore we

wouldn't be having this interview

probably. And I won. And it was, you

know, it was not expected that I would,

at least when I jumped in the race. And

there I was sitting in the office and I

thought, "Oh my god, I'm I'm now the

elected DA of a major city in the United

States." In hindsight, it was maybe it's

we call it imposttor syndrome. to your

point maybe it is a very loaded term

because I think there is nothing wrong

with having um and I think that there's

a lot that is good with having a certain

level of humility

>> and in particular when the people have

vested you with great power

>> right to understand it's not about you

right I think that that is that is part

and parcel of what we call imposttor

syndrome or who has it I think often it

is because they understand how serious

The job is on behalf of others.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And I applaud a bit of humility, honest

humility, not feain humility.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Right. Cuz there are plenty of people

that are, you know, self-deprecating for

the sake of the shtick of it all.

>> Yeah.

>> But yes, to your point, the higher you

go,

>> it does. It does because the more you're

exposed to to being the more you're in

the rooms with the people who are who

otherwise feel untouchable,

>> the more you understand that they are

not untouchable.

>> It's a polite way of putting it,

>> the more you understand everyone's got a

little dust on them.

>> Yeah.

>> And they're not not everyone's shiny.

>> But it's liberating to know that that

that's the case because you know there's

we all put a ceiling above us. and we

think that's my level and everyone above

that has some gift that I will never be

able to attain. So I won't even strive

to break that ceiling because you know I

don't deserve to be up there.

>> But but and also don't discount the

signals that that many people are sent

that you don't belong there.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And and you know, I I especially

when I'm mentoring people will often say

to them, don't ever limit yourself

based on other people's limited ability

to see who you are.

>> Mhm.

>> That's their limitations to see who you

are in your capacity. Don't impose those

limitations on yourself.

>> Well, I mean, this that photo I showed

you before we started recording that

LeBron posted is a pretty iconic

example. I'll put it on the screen, but

it just goes to show I think all the

vice presidents that came before you,

and frankly, they all look the same.

>> So,

one might fall into the trap of thinking

that if I don't look like this, then I

can't do this job. You know, that's what

I think the human mind logically might

arrive at that conclusion. It looks for

pattern recognition. It might think if

I'm not one of these here, one of these

men here with this suit on and this kind

of hair and this age, then that's not a

position I can thrive in.

>> I'll

see you and add one.

>> Okay.

>> And everyone else thinks that this is

the image of who can do the job.

>> Yeah.

So the added challenge is not only the

limitations one puts on themselves

but the limitations one might be met

with around other people's perceptions

about who can do what.

>> And have you had that through your

career?

>> Yes. Is there any particular examples

that always sit at the front of your

mind where you really really felt that

the room you were in, people were

discounting you purely based on

appearance or gender or race or anything

like that?

>> I mean, there are times in my career

when I walked in the room and someone

said, you know, something along if they

didn't know me.

>> Mhm.

>> If they didn't know what they were

walking into, you know, they were

waiting for my boss.

And how did you deal with that? How do

you stop that suppressing you? Because

it's very easy to feel that and go and

to shrink.

>> You will often be, you may often be the

only one who walks into a boardroom, a

courtroom, a meeting room,

who looks like yourself or has had your

life experiences.

But when you walk in that room, walk in

that room, chin up, shoulders back,

knowing there are so many people who are

not in that room,

>> who are so proud of you walking in that

room and expect that you will use the

voice that you carry.

>> Mhm. you know, and and there are there

are tools that one has to employ when

you otherwise are aware that you might

be presenting the unfamiliar.

>> But but but what I also would caution is

is don't walk in that room with the

assumption that your value will not be

recognized. Right? And so again, this

gets back to my point about we all have

to moderate what limitations are we

putting on ourselves

with what limitations are being sent our

way.

>> And when you say tools,

>> well, just like that, don't don't when

you walk into that room, see all the

people. I think sometimes of Mrs.

Francis Wilson, who was my first grade

teacher who attended my law school

graduation.

I think of my mother who would say to me

calmly don't you ever let anyone tell

you who you are you tell them who you

are right and you think of these people

when you walk into these important rooms

to remind you

>> I I it's a tool I have used over a

period of time and um and it has served

me well yes there's Mrs. Wilson. That's

at my law school graduation. And that's

my mother. That's exactly right. How

about that? Yeah. Where'd you get all

these pictures?

>> Well, stopping you, you know.

>> Yeah. That's Mrs. Wilson.

>> And so, why is thinking of Mrs. Wilson

helping you when you walk into those

rooms?

Because

there is, I think, a key to success

that each of us who has achieved success

probably shares, which is there has been

someone at least, and it could be a

parent, it could be a teacher, it could

be a neighbor, it could be a pastor,

someone who convinced you you were

special.

You may not have been particularly

special, but they told you you were and

you believed them.

I know that's true for me. I may not

have been particularly special, but I

had a few people who told me I was and I

believed them.

>> Mhm.

>> And and but with that came

therefore don't do this thing.

>> Mhm.

>> Cuz you're you know you shouldn't be

doing that thing but go in that room. I

think uh you know when we talk about

mentorship, when we think about the

signals that we as a society send to

children and I mean all of our children,

our own children, the children of a

community which we should think of as

our children.

to send them signals that tell them they

are special and then back that up with

giving them the resources

would make us a much stronger society.

as you said that I was reflecting on

little passing comments people in my

life made at certain points that at the

time I was suspicious about like you

know them telling you that you're going

to be special or do something great one

day that I might have not fully believed

myself but I believe they believed it

>> right

>> and that was enough

>> but that's that's what I'm saying they

told me and I believed them I didn't

think of it and maybe that's why I don't

look in the mirror and see all these

things

but yes

>> have you got any tools around how you've

leared to hold yourself.

>> Thinking back to 24y old comma versus

this Kamla, is there a certain way you

hold yourself in those rooms that also

garners that respect? I noticed when you

speak, you you don't rush and I think

people that are younger in their career,

they tend to

>> Yeah. Right.

>> Because they're they're kind of almost

trying to excuse the amount of time

they're taking and they kind of are a

bit more

>> I just wondering if there's anything

you've any tools in that regard that

have helped.

It's important to have some sense of

conceptually

>> what you mean to say and you not that

you have to rehearse what you're going

to speak before you speak it but do have

a sense of what you intend to

communicate.

>> Mhm. And I think it's also important to

especially with complex issues in the

context of a discussion

deconstruct

in your mind what the issue is

>> so you can speak logically.

>> Mhm.

>> And what about appearance generally? Do

you think much about that? So do you

think much about because you're I mean

you look very your outfit's stunning

today.

>> You're very

>> Does it matter?

>> Sadly it does.

>> It does. I mean depending on context. Um

sadly it does. I I we are still I think

in a world where the way you appear when

you walk in the room

impacts first impressions.

>> Mhm.

um including just for example again even

in mentoring people people will look at

their watch or their phone to see if

you've walked in the room on time

>> and will judge something about your

character

>> that the piece of how you look that is

going to suggest the pride that one has

in themselves

>> as a matter of self-respect I mean I've

always this is you know I grew up in the

black church,

you dress up

>> and it's a it's a reflection of your

dignity

and the respect you have for the place

that you may be.

>> And in January 2019, you launched your

presidential campaign for the first

time, which was up until you you dropped

out later that year in December.

>> Correct.

>> Why did you drop out of that uh

presidential race? What's the what's the

full context behind the scenes? There

was a lot there. Um,

mostly we ran out of money.

>> Yeah.

>> But I learned a lot of lessons obviously

about running. Um, but that was that was

the main reason.

>> And at some point you get a call from

Mr. President.

>> Mhm. I got a call from then nominee,

Democratic nominee Joe Biden. He um we

facetimed it was during the height of

COVID.

>> Yeah.

>> And he asked me to be his running mate.

and it was a a great honor and I was

honored to do it.

>> Did you have any inclination before that

moment that he was going to ask you?

>> Had there been like a side conversation?

>> So, no. I had an interview. I had an

interview and it was like something out

of a spy movie where I had my assistant

drove me to one location. This was in

DC. And then it was a mall. And then I

got out of that car to get in another

car that was because the press were

watching everything to see who there was

a short list that was out who was going

to be. So we had to do this whole

clandestine thing. And then I got into

another car being driven by one of his

assistants and then we went to this, you

know, this very circuitous route to a

house and then through the back door.

The windows were closed, the shades were

closed and I had my interview. went back

to because Doug and I were in our

apartment in DC because I was senator at

the time and again height of COVID then

the vans the press vans were parked out

front and we would just want to go for a

walk. Remember during co everyone just

wanted to get some fresh air they must

have thought we couldn't see them. They

were like in unmarked vans. So from time

to time I just walked up to him and say

we're going to get some coffee. Can I

bring you anything back? We'll be right

back. I the day I actually got the call

from from Joe Biden asking me to run

with him was the same day earlier where

one of my girlfriends has a house in

Virginia and it was the end of summer

and she had all these beautiful end of

summer tomatoes.

>> I like to cook. She brought me this big

box of tomatoes and I was going to make

a bunch of marinara

>> and freeze it. Then I get the call from

him. I said yes, of course. And I don't

know, it felt like within seconds

a parade of people walk into our

apartment with a parade of binders sit

down. Everyone's in masks to tell us,

"Okay, this is what the campaign is

going to be." And because I hate to

waste food, every one of them walked out

with me handing them to as they left.

>> I'm so intrigued to know. I've done many

interviews in my life. I've been in a

couple of interviews myself. How does

someone get interviewed to be the vice

president? like what are the questions

one is asked?

>> Well, having been in the position of

both being the interviewer and the

interviewee,

>> yeah,

>> um it really as much as anything comes

down to chemistry.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Because by the time that that interview

is happening, it's usually narrowed down

to about three people.

So, all the vetting has been done. I

mean, my the vetting I had such a

truncated experience when I was running

for president of of just a couple of

weeks, but I think Joe Biden took like

nine weeks to make a decision. And so

there's vetting when I was being vetted

for vice president. I had a I don't know

9-hour interview with a lawyer going

through everything, everything. My

taxes, my professional record,

everything that was everything,

everything. I mean, talk about a

colonoscopy.

>> It was just virtually. That's kind of

what it was. And so when all of that has

been done and it's kind of green light,

green light through that, then it's

about sitting down and just deciding um

because it it is going to be a

partnership, right? And it has to be it

has to be where you feel that you can

trust someone. You you could work with

them. You are you're doing it for the

same reasons.

>> Was it what you thought it was going to

be

>> being vice president?

>> Yeah.

>> I didn't know exactly what it would be

because there's nothing that can compare

to it. I mean, I was the 49th vice

president of the United States. There

have only been 48 before me. Right.

>> Mhm. And I don't think anything can

truly prepare you for what it is because

it is um a very unique position where

you are

again you are number two in command.

>> Wow. you. So the the seriousness of the

responsibility is is that um I I give

all credit to now the late President

Jimmy Carter who decided when he was

president having come off of you Kennedy

and Nixon and everything. He decided

that the vice president should be given

greater responsibilities than had been

the case because God forbid something

happens to the president. There should

be a smooth succession. And so Walter

Montdale was his vice president and was

the first to have an office in the West

Wing.

>> Mhm.

>> The responsibilities were again to meet

with world leaders. The responsibilities

were to travel the country um on behalf

of our administration and our policies.

Um it's it's an incredible

responsibility and um you know meeting

with the variety of people who for the

most part just want us to achieve good

things. When I was reading your book 107

days, one of the one of the really

surprising things was but also makes

sense when I understand human nature was

that you talk about how some of the

president's staff were basically

suppressing you a little bit,

suppressing your accomplishments because

you're a threat to them and you I think

you were told pretty early on or you had

heard pretty early on from a chief of

staff that

>> the the vice president is kind of seen

as a threat to the president. So, the

lore has it that

the outgoing chief of staff to the

president will tell the incoming chief

of staff to the incoming president

regardless of political party. Rule

number one, watch the vice president.

Lore has it that that's the case. And um

and then I had of course run against Joe

Biden. I was very and acutely aware that

I would have to

over and over again prove my loyalty

that it wouldn't be assumed.

>> You say in the book the president staff

was adding fuel to negative narratives

that sprung up about me.

>> Yeah.

>> The president's inner circle seemed fine

with it. Indeed, it seemed as if they

decided I should be knocked down a

little bit more.

>> Yeah. I was shocked when I read that but

at the same time understood it

>> because it's human nature but also

shocked

because one wouldn't expect

>> it was and it was counterproductive

was absolutely counterproductive. Was

there a particular moment where you

realized that this was happening

for the first time?

>> To be candid with you, I

had a sense of it for quite some time,

but it was after the election that I

really started to hear the stories about

it. I mean, I I had a sense of it. It

was clear to me in terms of just the

challenges with getting them to uplift,

getting them to defend, especially when

there were inaccurate, unfair attacks.

And then I started to hear more stories

after.

>> And what you mean by that is when there

were unfair media attacks on you that

could quite easily have been rebuttled

or

>> debunked, there was no desire to debunk

them.

>> There was there the staff and the

resources under the president as

compared to the vice president are

enormous. Mhm.

>> And to the extent that the vice

president is being attacked, resources

were available but not used to

defend the vice president in the way

that they could have that would have

inured to the benefit of everyone

involved.

>> Cuz that's what I think. There was an

argument to say it was in their

interests because if the if if you and

Joe Biden are strong, you're more like

Joe Biden's more likely to then win the

next election. Exactly. That's my point.

We rose and fell together.

>> Yeah.

And did did he did Joe Biden know that

that was happening?

>> I don't know if he did,

>> but it's the staff underneath him that

are in charge of that.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, they would they So, you're

saying that that you think they they

wanted you to be weaker in public

perception because that kind of keeps

you in your place?

>> I

think that that was part of it. I do. I

think that they decided that, you know,

there are far too many people in this

world and in professional life

who approach things with a zero- sum

game.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> If I have more, you have less.

And it is incredibly shortsighted. And I

think it's actually quite provincial

thinking when you're talking about the

stakes that were at play

>> in our administration and of course in

the election

>> and they you were talking about in the

book as well in on page 47 of 107 days

that they also didn't

promote your accomplishments because

when I read through all the research of

the things that you had accomplished I

wasn't aware

>> I know

>> there doesn't seem to be a megaphone

shouting about the things you

accomplished. So, um it

>> was very frustrating. I can't even tell

you. Frustrating and painful

>> really.

>> And well, and also not just for me, but

for the people who knew my career and

knew what was not being said and what

was being said.

>> What wasn't being said,

>> the accomplishments, the um the the the

credibility of um of my leadership.

They thought that, and you say this on

page 51, if you were shining, then Joe

Biden was dimmed. So, it was very much

in their interests to

make sure you were dimmed.

One one could argue then so that Joe

Biden was shining.

>> Yeah. And that was um

again, it was very shortsighted.

>> Are you friends with Joe Biden?

>> Yes.

>> Is the relationship good?

>> It's a good relationship. I just talked

to him.

two days ago he called me for my

birthday.

>> Is it Is it complicated?

>> Yes, it's very complicated.

>> It is. And as I write in the book, I um

it is very complicated. I have a great

deal of affection for him. Um, and

there were times that I've been quite

candid about where he

greatly disappointed me

and frankly, you know, angered me.

>> Yeah.

>> Can you give me context on it where he

disappointed and angered you?

>> So, I write um and I, you know, I I I

thought about this. Was I going to write

about it or not? And I I decided in

writing this book, I was going to just

be honest and these are the facts and

the reader can take what they want from

it. on the day of the debate, my debate

with Trump.

And you know, so going into a

presidential debate is an incredibly

intense and intensive project, including

what has historically happened that we

even called debate camp.

>> Can you imagine? And it's no camp at

all. It's going into

um where you basically are sequestered

for a period of time immediately before

the debate.

Where did you get all of these? This is

Phipe who played Donald Trump

>> in your debate camp.

>> In my debate camp and he never broke

character ever.

>> So this is a fake Trump that was brought

in.

>> This is the fake Trump. He would do the

makeup, the orange makeup, the long red

tie. He was just awful.

Awful. awful in the best way in trying

to get me prepared and um and there were

a lot of people like Phipe there were a

lot of people who are you know I I'm

very fortunate I have people who have

been with me for years and years and

years through these various offices and

you know even if they go on to different

positions they always come back when

needed and so debate camp was this

intense basically a preparation process

where you

you know your team will basically try to

they'll break you and then build you

back up. So the day of the debate was

after that intense period of preparation

and then that morning I had a meeting

with my team. I thought it was going to

be more prep but they actually were

wonderful and just basically said to me

you're ready.

So, okay then being a woman running for

president and many women in various high

level positions get their hair and

makeup done. Back to your point about

presentation and it can take hours.

>> Hair and makeup got done. I'm in the

hotel room with Doug, with my husband,

and the president calls and I they I was

told that he wanted to call me so that

I'd be ready. And I was so sure it was

to buck me up and go go get him.

And he did say that for the first beat.

And then he went on to talk about a

group of people in Pennsylvania who were

saying bad things about me.

because they heard I was saying bad

things about him. And when I hung up the

phone, I was just

I was it was unbelievable. And I was

Yes, I was angry and deeply

disappointed.

It just it was so unnecessary. There

only two people in the world other than

me that has debated this guy, Hillary

Clinton and him. And you know what it's

like? It's going into a debate with the

stakes being that high and and Trump

hadn't agreed to another debate.

The stakes were so high.

So that's an example of what I mean.

>> You took something from that. You took a

an underlying message about one's

intentions from that. cuz I would if

someone called me in the leadup to de

debate prep and said something like that

to me, I would assume that they don't

want the best for me.

>> My takeaway is his motivation was all

about himself.

>> That's what I would assume from that. I

would assume that.

>> Yeah. Right. Obviously, right?

>> Yeah.

>> It wasn't about my performance at the

debate.

>> Do you think he wanted you to win the

election?

I do because

I was the only one who would be able to

preserve his legacy.

>> But even that's about him.

>> Well, if I had to assume one of the

reasons why he'd want me to win

if Yeah.

And of course, you know that this all

wouldn't be happening. I don't think

anybody

who cares about the future of the

country um the democracy or even just

protecting the Constitution of the

United States would have wanted this.

Yeah.

just a bit of a reminder to me that a

lot of people in the highest places in

in power are maybe a little bit

self-focused.

>> Yeah, that's that is the case.

>> I think it um I think that is the case.

I've seen it.

>> I've seen it.

>> Maybe dare I say that it that's how they

get there.

I think that may be a big part of it if

they don't have something else that is

the pull or the push.

>> Yeah. Cuz I look at your life and your

career and I see a dedication to the

same thing which is like serving people

and it's at the expense of financial

opportunities and other opportunities

you could have pursued and it seems to

be really really authentic to me that

your your agenda was to serve people. Um

I can't say that about everybody else

that I've studied or interviewed in the

political environment. And the other

thing the other thing that so I watch

all these debates. I've been I'm such a

big fan of American politics. So I was I

was up at 12 years old watching Obama

get inaugurated or whatever it was. I

can't it was roughly I was a young kid

at the time.

>> I I stay up and watch all the debates. I

always have since I was a kid. I watched

that debate. But the debate that came

before with Biden and Trump.

>> It was so apparently clear.

>> Yeah.

>> That this was not okay.

>> And it felt like it felt like the whole

of the Democratic side of politics was

pretending everything was okay. Mhm.

>> That's kind of my observation from the

UK. I was like, why are they all

pretending everything's fine? But this

was clearly an individual that was very

much struggling with articulation, with

ideas,

>> and in the face of someone like Trump

who

>> to his credit

is able to pounce on that to be very

clear. and and he and he interestingly

enough because of course I watched that

debate very closely for many many

reasons including um I had four

interviews

right after his debate

>> okay

>> to speak on behalf of the president

during the debate and what was

interesting in that debate was also to

watch how it's a very rare circumstance

that you see Donald Trump actually

moderate

it was fascinating

You must have known. You must have you

sat you sat there. You were in LA at the

time, right?

>> I was in LA at the Fairmont Hotel

>> watching

>> watching

>> and

>> taking vigorous notes. I had ordered,

you know, like they had a little crude

tape plate and I was like, "No, this is

a pizza night. Ordered pizza for

everyone." I had my a number of people

with me, but I had a tight group of

people with me in the room.

He called me from debate camp.

>> Mhm.

>> The president did, Biden did. And I

could tell something was a little off.

And

I was concerned about I I just he I

don't think he wanted to debate is my

point. He didn't want that debate. And

you know, it's like any competition you

go in, whether it's you're bidding for

something, you're if it's sports, you

got to want it.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. If you don't want to be in the

competition,

>> it will absolutely have an impact on

your performance. And I don't think he

I'm pretty sure he did not want to

debate.

>> How do you know? What were the signs?

>> Well, we had conversations about it. I

think he got talked into it. And in any

event, so I'm watching the debate with

my tight team. I wanted it to be a small

team so I could just be candid as it's

happening because I know I have four

interviews right after. And you know, in

every debate, I don't care who you are,

there will be statistic wrong or you

know, you name this country, but it was

that country. That always happens. There

is no such thing as a perfect debate. So

there will be something to clean up.

>> Yeah.

>> And I expected that.

And then, you know, we saw what we all

saw.

>> It was a car crash. It was a historic

car crash. I actually can't think of a

>> I'm a little bit of a historian of these

debates because I I think they're

fascinating sort of experiments and

demonstrations of human psychology and

how these zingers emerge and the binders

full of women thing and you know the

Obama's whole thing about the um

>> the Romney and Obama in that debate

where they talked about the the the

military was no longer horses and

bayonets. I just think it's so

interesting because it's funny how a a

sentence or a phrase can sway the

general public in such a profound way

>> and stick

>> and stick and then as a marketer I spent

10 years in marketing I think about this

a lot how like that that horses and

bayonets the fact that I can remember

that but I can't really remember

anything else

>> right that's interesting

>> you know the power of the words so that

in my view

>> and the delivery right so the words

combined with the delivery and the

timing

>> yeah and this is what you learn

>> that has to that all has to coincide

>> so what was real strategy going into

that debate with Trump because you had

those same moments where the cats and

the dogs and all those all that

unbelievable stuff and and also you it

at home I was thinking oh she's she's

trying to trigger him and it's working.

>> Yeah, because he's so predictable that

way.

>> What were those things for you? Well,

the first thing is that we had empty

pads on our um podium and in in the

debate camp and then therefore when I

walked on stage after I shook his hand

went back to my podium, I wrote a smiley

face

and cuz I just decided I was going to

have fun

because one of the things about these

kinds of debates in particular is the

person who's having fun wins.

That's so true. We watched it back the

other day and you're smiling

>> and you you look like you're enjoying it

and he looks frustrated.

>> Yeah.

>> So, that was intentional was to if you

look like you're having fun,

>> well, have fun, but though not just look

cuz I think it's very difficult to look

like you're having fun if you're not,

right?

>> Um,

>> so you've got to find you've you have to

find you have to this is a true for

life. You got to see the humor in it.

Otherwise, it's just going to undo you.

Especially if you're dealing with heavy

stuff, you've got to see the humor in

it. And you know, like when he pulled

out the cats and dogs thing,

I couldn't even believe it. I couldn't

because here's what happened. So

I didn't know that he that this was

being said, right?

>> Let's give context for anyone that

doesn't know.

>> Okay. Yes. Right. you well

>> well so from what I understand it's

faint in my memory but um there was this

like crazy rumor that I think it was im

illegal immigrants were eating cats and

dogs

>> that Haitian immigrants regardless of

their legal status

>> in Ohio were eating their pets

>> cats and dogs

>> so I hadn't even heard about it cuz I'm

in debate camp right

and then two members of my team see him

get off

his his Trump plane with the main

purveyor of this nonsense

and then they realize if she's on the

plane with him it is very possible last

thing he heard was this thing. So they

last minute tell me by the way um a lot

of them call me boss because it's like

this is what you do in law enforcement

and it just stuck crazy. Hey boss, we

got to tell you something. We didn't

mention it to you. There's this whole

thing that they're saying on that side

about Haitian immigrants eating cats and

dogs. And I was like, are you kidding

me? That's ridiculous. No, but it's what

they're saying. So just it may come up

in the debate. Sure enough, it did. But

see, here's the thing that I would say

to you, Stephen, that

again, one of the reasons I wrote the

book is also there are lessons to be

learned from those 107 days to be

applied today.

I believe that part of what is the

method is say the outrageous thing,

then everyone is going to focus on that

outrageous thing.

And meanwhile this is happening,

right? And so meanwhile

>> misdirection.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And misdirection includes, by the way,

talking about immigrants eating cats and

dogs and not talking about what's your

plan for working Americans to bring down

the prices.

So then the press covers that whole

thing and not oh where was his plan for

bringing down prices.

>> Here's what I've come to learn um in the

last sort of 10 years working in in

marketing is I have this um particular

chapter in my last book where I say

useless absurdity defines will define

you more as a brand than useful

practicality. And what I mean by this,

>> right, that's beautifully said,

>> is when I, this is the analogy I give. I

went to this gym in Canary Warf and I

walk in and it's got this 100 foot

climbing wall. It's massive gym,

incredible. I come home, I tell my

girlfriend, I go, "Babe, there's this

incredible gym." And then the next

sentence out of my mouth is the most

absurd thing because I know that will be

the most impactful. So I say, "They've

even got a 100 foot climbing wall." Cuz

if I say that, it implicitly tells them,

you know, tells my girlfriend, "This gym

is big." And and even in my last

company, the thing that the press

focused on in my office wasn't our work,

our case studies, the clients we had. It

was that we had this massive blue slide

that went into a ballpool. So whenever

the press came, they said, "Can you go

stand by the blue slide?" It was all

about this blue slide. The most absurd

thing gar all the attention. And I

actually think to

Trump's strategy is he leads with he's a

master labeler. Sleepy Joe. You know,

you can't

>> is very gifted.

Don't discount the guy in terms of that.

>> How do you beat someone playing that

game?

>> You have to be relentless on focusing on

what's actually happening.

>> Does that work?

>> And it means it means also

deconstructing. So that I mean one of

the things for example that I've been

talking about recently is there's a word

that applies so well to him in this era

which is a phrase gaslighting.

Right? So there's a whole lot of

gaslighting happening which is basically

misrepresenting, lying, scapegoating,

distracting, right, from what's really

occurring, including like this whole

thing where he's coming down so hard and

with these mass deportations which is

picking up a lot of American citizens by

the way in the process, hardworking

people in the process. And what he would

have people believe is that your

predicament

is because this is what he actually is

trying to sell. Your predicament is

because of relatively powerless people.

So you don't focus on the powerful

people.

He's basically saying to the American

people, you have less because of people

who have even less than you. Here's the

counterpoint. It works.

>> Yes, evidently.

But there is, you know, but at some

point the veneer and the the the

deflection

has to wear off. I don't know when

exactly that is going to happen. And I

think that, you know, listen, um, the

tariffs taking hold and when we get

around to the holiday season and people

realize how many toys are made in China,

what strengthens that approach is the

rapid amount of dis disinformation that

is spreading. It's so much and it just

spreads like wildfire. And trying to

stay in front of that with fact, much

less, to your point, practical messaging

and logic, it is a real challenge. It's

funny because I I sit here a lot with

neuroscientists and psychologists who

tell me about how the brain works and

they at a simple level they talk about

these two parts of the brain which is

like the rational prefrontal cortex and

then the emotional center like the lyic

system the amydala and they always tell

me that the most memorable um the part

of the brain that holds memories the

easiest and the best and that garners

the most attention is the emotional

center of the brain the amydala. So if I

say

>> that these people, these brown people

are coming over and they're rapists and

murderers.

>> Yeah.

>> It's much it's much more emotionally

captivating than you telling me about

like

>> statistics on on how America recovered

faster than any so-called wealthy

country economically from the pandmic.

>> Yeah, I I'll forget that within 10

seconds of you just saying it. But the

rapist and murderers thing, like my

objective sense goes, well, no, come on.

It's not the problem. But there's part

of me that remembers that and that's

even as someone who I think is

relatively informed on the the reality

of the situation. I still I remember um

Dr. I think it was Dr. Tally Sharet.

She's a neuroscientist. So she

understands that vaccines don't give

kids autism.

>> Yeah.

>> But she recalls this time in the

election many.

She recalls um I think it was Ben

Carlson or someone talking about the

science and then she the camera pans to

Trump and Trump is saying recounting a

story where a child who was this big

three-year-old beautiful child and they

came up to her with a needle this big

>> and they gave her the vaccine and she

got autism. Now science on one hand an

emotional story in the other. I know.

>> Tally, I think, said to me at the time,

she goes, "Even though I know it's not

true, there was part of me

>> that was a little bit scared."

>> I know.

>> So, my question here is how does how

does the Democratic Party win in such a

war when you're being fought with

emotion and fear? How do you win with

logic and rationality? like huh

>> I'll I'll answer your question directly

but I want to just add to the question

um that I think part of the question has

to be what is the responsible of media

what is the role of corporateowned media

um god bless independent media

because a lot of it is also about what

set of information are people working

with you know for example I've talked to

a number of people who voted voted for

me.

Saying to them who are having debates,

disagreement, you know, ending

relationships with people who voted for

him.

And part of what I'm asking people to do

is not to assume that the people with

whom they disagree are working with the

same set of information. Now, I didn't

say facts because 2 plus 2 is four,

>> but

I think it's a big mistake for us to

assume we're all working with the same

information.

And then when you compound that with,

you know, intentional efforts to

misinform and disinform and targeted, I

I was a member of the Senate

Intelligence Committee when we

investigated Russia's interference in

the 2016 election.

We declassified our findings. We made

them public. It included the fact that

this adversarial nation included in what

they targeted. They targeted black

voters

with the assumption that there are

certain people and demographically

certain groups who are more susceptible

to an argument about why they should

distrust their government because they

have a lived experience that tells them

that. And so I would say flippantly, oh,

so now all of a sudden the issue of race

in America is a national security issue.

So everybody needs to deal with it. We

know that certain demographics are

targeted with miss and disinformation.

Be they what we've seen around targeting

young voters or other groups based on

race or gender.

So when we talk about the role of the

Democratic party, there is a very big

role to play and there is a role for us

to to to require social media companies

to play, media companies to play and so

on because information is coming from

all of these places and and the

challenge is as big as

do we are we all working with facts.

We have a team at my company, Flight

Story, called Flight X. And their

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A word you said there um piqued my

interest, which is the word independent

media.

>> Yes,

>> I am independent media.

>> Bless you.

>> And I'm in a group of my peers like the

big podcasters in the world like Joe

Rogan, etc., and Alex Cooper. I know who

show you Anton um in as part of your

campaign.

>> The media landscape is changing before

our eyes

>> rapidly.

>> You're sat in a set now. You're the

madame vice vice president. You're sat

in effectively my kitchen,

>> my old kitchen where they started, you

know,

>> and that's crazy. Like 20 years ago, the

thought that you'd come to my kitchen is

such a crazy thing. But it's in part now

because of the democratization of these

platforms and creating the content is

much cheaper and we have distribution

now across these big platforms.

Many would say that it changed the

course of the election. Podcasting,

>> not just the podcast you did or didn't

go on, but just the conversations that

take place on these podcasts. And

>> as I have to say, you know, as

podcasters, we don't have the same rigor

as traditional journalists, who I

respect a lot. We don't have the same

teams and real time fact, all those

kinds of things.

>> Podcasting, there was lots of

conversation around you going on Joe

Rogan's show or not going on, which

>> what is the what is the truth there for

anyone that hasn't yet read the book? Um

because Trump did like a hundred million

views on Joe Rogan's show and it in

three hours sat there getting to know

Trump and for better or for worse you

probably walked away from that

conversation feeling like you knew who

he was.

>> I wanted to do Joe Rogan show and there

was a lot of games being played but I

wanted to do Joe Rogan show. I think

podcasting is a very

powerful medium for people to get

information and and to your point a lot

of people that is a main source of

information and it's important for us to

support that. Joe Joe says you wanted he

want you want him to come to you which

is very un Joe like in terms of he

doesn't really travel in hindsight

do you wish you'd gone and done the show

for 3 hours at his studio in hindsight

it I' I'd mean really it just would be

what what were we giving up I wanted to

do his show and a lot of people advised

me not to do his show because they

assumed as it turned out to be correct

that he was supporting Trump and that it

would not be a productive piece for me.

But just like when I went on Fox News

with Brett Bear, my perspective was

they may have their bias, but there are

people that listen who are open-minded,

and I'm going to go there and give them

a chance to get to know me and give me a

chance to make my case to them.

>> So, that was my perspective on Joe

Rogan, just like it was my perspective

on Fox.

>> There was a lot of games being played

around the scheduling and it didn't

happen. Um, and you know, I I don't have

anything against um certainly not

against the people who turn on to Joe

Rogan and would love to be able to talk

with him in a direct manner um as I

wanted to during the campaign.

>> Do you in hindsight wish you just put

your foot down and said, "I'm going to

go do it."

>> I don't know if it would have made a

difference,

but yeah. No, I wanted to do it. So, let

me just say that, right? So, I wanted to

do it and it would have been great to do

and I think it would have been helpful

to do.

>> Yeah, I think so. So, it's just I mean

that the issue it was really about

what's the tradeoff in terms of votes

and where I spend my time. Do I spend my

time traveling for 5 hours and back

versus being for that period of time in

a swing state?

>> Mhm.

>> And that was the tradeoff.

>> I guess it goes to the point

>> it wasn't about I don't want to do Joe

Rogan or it believe me at that point in

a campaign it's not about oh is somebody

coming to me or me going to them. I

could care less about that. Pride is not

associated with it. It is more about

>> it's it is literally about return on

investment.

>> Okay. And this goes to our point about

efficiency earlier.

>> Yeah. Exact exactly right. The only

there's only one candidate.

>> So where am I spending my time to get

the greatest return on the investment?

>> If I was in charge of your campaign

>> I would have 100%

put you in that environment. Even when I

look at the trade-off in part because

someone like me and I consider myself to

be like genuinely really objective

>> and my friends know me as being extreme

not just objective on camera but

objective in my personal life.

>> I would have when you see a certain

environment present someone in a certain

way.

>> You really like the

>> the thing that can burst that bubble is

seeing that person go into that

environment. And like when I saw you on

Fox News, I watched that interview as

well.

>> Um

>> I actually think it strengthens

strengthens your supporters and actually

those independents who are in that space

too can can get a feel for you. So I

would have love to see and I actually

think

>> I hope in this next election cycle when

is it 2028 I really would love to see

>> both sides going to both sides and I

actually think that's happening now

going into those going into those

environments. I do also tend to think

that Joe would have been fair.

>> Mhm.

>> Well that's why I wanted to do it. I had

to assume that that was possible

>> and either way he's very popular. I

would have loved to watch that.

>> I I regret that we didn't do it. I

definitely regret that we didn't do it.

And um

listen, I have

been doing my work long enough that

for me it has I've never had the luxury

of saying I don't want to go into

uncomfortable situations.

>> Mhm.

>> You would need to have a different

profession.

PR people some some can sometimes [ __ ]

things up for for other people. I think

I think in the new world there's this

new requirement to be more like a glass

box and less like a black box. I think

>> in 20 years ago the whole strategy of

businesses and brands and CEOs

executives was to basically be black

boxes where the PR team paints the

perception on the outside and in this

digital world where it's like the media

and platforms are distributed and all of

my employees here have cameras on them

at all times.

The defense is like transparency because

I'm not going to let you craft my

narrative. You're going to see it.

>> That's why I wrote the book.

>> Exactly.

>> History is going to write about those

107 days and I'm not going to let

>> that piece of American history be

written without my voice being present.

>> Are you going to run again? Cuz I look

at the polls. I looked at the polls and

you're leading for the Democratic side

and there isn't really a clear

Democratic

>> candidate. I I interviewed Gav Gavin

Newsome as well, but when I look at the

polls, you're still leading.

>> Yeah. You don't know.

>> I don't know. Honestly,

>> I feel like you know in your heart.

>> What do I know in my heart?

>> I feel like you know if you're you're

going to run in your heart or if you

have a calling or a feeling to is

something germinating.

>> I you know I'm focused on the book tour

sincerely. Yeah. And part of how I'm

feeling right now, part of the reason I

didn't run for governor of California, I

really don't want to be transactional

right now. You know, I don't I don't

want to be present because I'm asking

for a vote.

>> Okay. Yeah. What's the case for running

again and what's the case for not

running again?

>> H I think the case for running again is

if I can make a difference. Honestly, if

I can make a difference,

you know, if I feel that I can offer

something as president of the United

States that would be

not only

uplifting to the American people, but

would be um

about, you know, getting us

on a correct trajectory.

>> Do you know what my next question is

going to be? What

>> do you believe that you can offer

something to the United States that's

going to be uplifting and get us on a

better trajectory?

>> I mean, that's why I ran the last time.

Um,

so 28 is is a far it's I mean it's

practically tomorrow, but it's it's not

and we'll have to see what happens over

the course of these next few months,

several months.

>> Is there a case against running again?

What would that be?

>> You know, it's difficult to run for

president. takes a toll on your family.

Takes a real toll on your family. You

know, anyone running for president

should really take very seriously the

decision cuz it is not for the faint of

heart. You have to be able to take a

punch and throw a punch, but you got to

be able to take a punch.

>> A lot of punches.

>> Yeah. There's something that comes with

success. whether you're running for

president of the United States, build a

successful business, have a public

profile,

um, which is among the the the difficult

aspects of it, and there are so many

positive aspects, but among the

difficult aspects is

putting yourself out there in a way that

you invariably

will be in a position hopefully Not with

a lot of people,

but where you will be misunderstood.

That's an awful feeling.

>> Yeah, it is. Yeah.

>> Oh, it's an awful feeling to be

misunderstood

in this environment in particular.

Invariably, you will put yourself in a

position where some people will hate

you. It's awful.

They don't know you, but they'll hate

you.

And

so to do anything that is about

distinguishing yourself

by virtue of the thing you can offer or

a differentiation from yourself and

others of you know in a similar category

it it exposes you to a lot. Um and so

you have to know why you're doing it.

And I believe that you have to do it for

something that is bigger than yourself,

not about your own power, not about your

ego,

not about your entitlement. It has to be

because to endure the the the the not

just the process of getting into the

job, but the job itself,

you got to be clear about why you're

there. on that night when you the

results come in and you realize that the

election hasn't gone your way and that

Trump is going to be elected. What would

I have seen if I was a fly on the wall

in the room?

>> I was in a state of shock.

>> Really?

>> Did you think the day before that you

were going to win?

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah.

>> And so when did the the proverbial penny

drop? when I got a call from my campaign

manager

that it looks like we need 200,000 more

votes that we can't find.

Meaning, it's just the map, the numbers.

And

the thing I kept saying over and over

again, I was in a state of shock. I I

was

I was so inarticulate,

but maybe very articulate. What I kept

saying over and over again is, "My God,

my God, my God."

>> Really,

>> over and I couldn't stop. I

um I haven't felt that

emotion, anything similar to the emotion

I felt that day in for quite some time.

Um other than

the grief I felt when my mother died,

I fel I knew what was going to happen to

our country.

I knew I knew the harm that was going to

happen to people