When my friends are struggling, I don't

say, "Take your time." When my friends

are struggling, I say, "Go on." When my

friends are crying, I say, "Go on."

I live my life by that code.

He's back.

Cynic,

leadership and communication expert,

author, TED speaker. His unconventional

views have made him one of the most

sought-after speakers on the planet.

There's no one quite like him. Simon,

how are you doing?

I'm actually feeling quite lonely. I'm

struggling to communicate or present

myself in a way that people will get who

I am. Feel like nobody can help you. And

the first thing that a lot of us should

do is reach out to a friend and say,

"I'm struggling." You should never cry

alone. We live in a world where most

people are illquipped on how to be there

for a friend who's struggling. The first

mistake people make is they try and fix.

Don't need them to fix me. I just need

him to sit in the mud with me so I don't

feel alone when I'm sitting in the mud.

The fact that it's such a loud

conversation about mental health is a

spotlight on the fact that we do not

know how to build deep meaningful

relationships. But the way I manage it,

which is different than most is I, you

know, I wish I had these skills 10 years

ago.

Is the design of the modern world making

it more difficult for us to find love

and to keep it? The problem with it is

is it's grass is always greener because

it's so easy to just go swiping.

Something's out of balance. And as I I'm

going to say this over and over and over

again, which is successful relationships

are

[Music]

Simon, congratulations. You are the D of

record holder. You've been invited back

more than any other guest. And it's not

for it's for a very very good reason,

which is that your episodes are always

the most adored that we have on this on

this podcast. They are um the two

episodes of the conversations we've had

are both in the top 10 of all time on

the show and I always feel after our

conversations end that they could have

gone on longer. So here we are.

Well, thanks for having me back. I enjoy

coming.

My first question for you today is and I

you know this question is often asked

quite flippantly but I want to I'd

really like the real answer which is how

are you doing?

Um, you know, I think when somebody says

fine,

they're lying.

And so my instinct is to say I'm fine.

Um,

I am going through

uh I'm going through some ups and downs.

Um, I'm in a period of uh flux, which

doesn't which is fine. That that

genuinely is good. Um, I like a little

bit of chaos in my life. It's where

creativity comes from. And if I look

back at my career, you know, I would

take a job, I'd have a fastmoving

career, it would get to a a great point,

it would plateau, and then I'd quit. And

I'm sort of at that point, you know, um

I love a steep learning curve. I love a

difficult situation and I like trying

something new and building something.

And um so there's I'm I'm shifting away

from inerson public speaking which I

think surprises a lot of people. Um but

recognize that I never considered myself

a public speaker in the first place.

It's just something I did to advance my

cause. It was never my chosen career. So

not doing it as much as I enjoy it and

and I know uh is is not that difficult.

So what next is a little bit of an

unknown. I have some ideas and I'm

testing some things out, but I don't

actually know where I'm going to go.

Why are you shifting away from public

speaking? Give me the context as to why

this is a sort of a pivotal moment.

Um, there are multiple reasons. Um, you

know, I I consider myself a preacher.

And when I set out on my journey many

years ago, I was espousing a vision of

what business could look like and what

the world could look like, what our

careers could look like that was

different than the world that we lived

in. You know, talking about purpose at

work was some hippie-dippy stuff,

you know, and now it's a completely

normal conversation. And I'm really

proud to have been a part of that

movement. And so when I would stand on a

stage, I was preaching to people who had

never heard of my my work, who had never

heard of these concepts, at least not

explained the way I explained them. And

and I was converting audiences, you

know, that was and the good news is the

movement is is a is has its own

momentum. And um I don't know how many

I'm converting vastly fewer people now

when I walk into the room. Now they're

looking for tools. Now they're looking

for, you know, which is great. Um, and

so I want to now pivot myself so that I

can start having significant impact

again. So that I can start affecting

greater change, not not just

maintenance, not just reinforcing, not

just affirming change, impact is what

I'm looking at. So that's a huge part.

Um, co in some respects was a gift. It

created a marketplace for online and so

you know I can do things that I could

never do before which is I can be in

Chicago in the morning and Koala Lumpur

in the evening. that that was impossible

before. Um I have the energy to give to

more people. Um so I'm doing that which

is great. Um and at the end of the day

um I I'm I want to learn. I want to be

in a situation where I'm actually not

familiar, where I'm not very

comfortable. You know, I'm good on the

stage now. I've I've honed my craft and

I want to be uncomfortable again.

Right? the personal side is different.

Uh,

you know, I know that mental health is a

is a is a an big and important topic

right now. And had a conversation with

somebody recently and I've realized I

actually don't like the term mental

health, you know. Um, it sounds like a

fixed destination. It sounds like, you

know, if you if you don't have health,

like if you're not perfect, there's

something wrong with you. So any kind of

divergence or sadness means you're

imperfect, right? And that's not true.

And I think it's an unfair standard to

call it mental health. And I think

because at the end of the day, like

think about your body when you go to the

gym, right? Um we call that fitness.

And some days you have good days at the

gym and some days you have bad at the

gym, bad days at the gym. Some days your

body feels amazing. You can lift huge

weights. and someday for whatever reason

you got enough sleep, you ate, you're

eating well, you're hydrated, you just

your body's just not working that day.

And we're all familiar with that and it

doesn't really bother us. You're like, h

bad day today. And you move on and you

allow that to happen. But we don't treat

our our mental fitness the same way. You

know, being a human, you are 100%

mentally fit if you have sadness and

have if you have joy and if you have

doubt and uncertainty and insecurity.

That that's what it is to be human. like

your body sometimes has pain. There's

nothing wrong with your body. And so I I

I like to call it mental fitness rather

than mental health, right? I'm always

working on my mental fitness.

Mhm.

And I allow for periods of darkness. So

right now when you said, "How are you?"

The space that I'm sitting in is I'm

actually feeling quite lonely. And uh

and I learned about how to manage mental

fitness during COVID more than I ever

had prior because we had to deal with so

much [ __ ] right? And so prior I would

have been embarrassed by saying I'm

feeling lonely. I would have um hid at

it or suppressed it. Don't like negative

feelings. Um

whereas now I'm just sitting in it, not

worried about it. Um I'm allowing it to

go through me. like I'm allowing myself

to have a bad day at the gym and

weirdly even though it's not necessarily

fun um weirdly appreciative of it um

because it's makes me human.

It just reminds me of a story um earlier

on in my career I was invited to speak

at an event which is the Association of

Meeting Planners. So there's an American

meeting planners association whatever it

is.

Literally everybody who hires speakers

from every big company and association

has their own association and they come

and have their own event. So to get

hired to get invited to speak at this

event is like if you nail it your career

is set for the rest of your life and if

you blow it your career is over, right?

Because like literally everybody who

hires all the speakers for all the big

events is in this room and I got

invited. Huge honor, right?

And I'm this back in the start with Y

days. And I'm good at start with Y. Like

I've done this thing probably thousands

of times. I know my stuff. So I get up

there. I'm doing start with Y and I lose

my train of thought.

It's okay. I'm a professional. I know

how to deal with losing your train of

thought. You go quiet.

You relax. You get your thoughts back.

And you pick up where you left off. It's

happened before. No problem. So I do

what I I know how to do. I go quiet and

nothing comes in. And now the panic

starts. Now the heart starts pounding.

Now my life is flashing before my eyes.

Now I'm recognizing, oh my god, I've my

career is over, you know, and I look at

my my pad and I look at the audience. I

cannot I cannot remember what I was

saying. I don't know what to say next. I

don't have a joke. I've got nothing.

I've just got panic. So I turn to the

audience and I say, "Do you ever have

that feeling, that sinking feeling when

you lose your train of thought, where

your heart starts pounding and your

hands get clammy and your life flashes

before your eyes?" I said, "I'm having

that right now." And I'll tell you, I am

so grateful for that feeling right now

because it makes me feel alive. And the

audience exploded with applause. I said,

"Right now, if somebody could please

just tell me what I was saying so I

could pick up where I left off." And

somebody screamed something out and

went, "Thank you." And I picked up and I

finished. The point was I could have I

could have suppressed the panic, but I

was open about the way I was feeling.

And what I learned was everybody was

there to support me because I I

acknowledge that I'm human

and it's relatable. And so that's how I

feel right now. I'm more open about

being in a darker space in in a in the

shadows right now because because it

makes me feel it makes me feel quite

frankly normal. It makes me feel human

and it's part of mental fitness, you

know, and and if I didn't have off days

or off weeks, then how would I know what

to work on, you know? How would I know

what good good looks like? How would I

know how to appreciate the happy days if

I didn't have some days that were down?

So I'm I'm I'm weirdly grateful for what

I'm going through right now.

I

very long answer to your very question.

Absolutely perfect. Obviously we always

do long answers here as you know but I I

um the context is so incredibly

important and the subject matter is even

more important. I know this because I've

done a few talks over the last couple of

years or whatever and when I talk about

the subject matter of loneliness,

what will happen afterwards is I will

have a young man

who will come up to me, you know, when

people are asking questions at the

afterwards when you're taking pictures

or whatever

and he'll get very very close

because he's scared of anybody hearing

him on his right, right, and his left.

And I remember I have this vision in my

head of it happening recently. And he'll

whisper to me a a message of thanks for

talking about my own loneliness in my

life. Yeah.

But also asking for some kind of path

through the jungle of loneliness, some

kind of solution. And then when I look

at the the statistics around loneliness

in the UK and in the US, it's absolutely

incredible. I've often cited that

Theresa May was the first prime minister

in our country to appoint a loneliness

for the country. Um, I think the the

statistic which I've often quoted is

that the medium American used to say

they had three people they could turn to

in a time of crisis and now that answer

is zero.

And we're and we're heading in that

direction at a very sort of um global

often western world level.

So I think the subject matter of

loneliness is incredibly important one.

My first question on that on that topic

then is what is the symptom of

loneliness? How does one know if they

are lonely? And because it's so easy to

confuse it with another feeling.

Yeah. H what's you what's your sort of

symptoms?

So

when I when I say I feel lonely and I

think when people say they feel lonely,

I think what it is is that you know

we're social animals who want to feel um

included but also feel like um people

see, hear, and understand us. And I

think my symptoms of of loneliness are

feeling misunderstood

or like people don't get me or or worse,

I'm struggling to communicate or present

myself in a way that people will get who

I am. You've heard me say this. You

know, there's an entire section in the

bookshop called self-help and there's no

section on the bookshop called help

others. And what we're desperately

needing more than anything is is is a

help others industry. Like we do not

teach people how to help each other. We

we do podcasts and write books about how

you know how you can find love and how

you can build your business and how you

can become a millionaire and you know

how you can find the job that you love.

It's all about me me and there's not

enough about how can you help somebody

else find love. How can you else how can

you help somebody else you know find

commercial success or how we don't do

that. We don't teach it. And those are

the skills that are desperately needed

for each of us to find mental fitness

because we can't do it alone. You know,

when you find darkness, you you whatever

however you want to define your

darkness, you know, you feel alone. You

feel like nobody can help you. You feel

like you have no agency. You feel like

you lack of control. And the first thing

that a lot of us should do is reach out

to a friend and say, "I'm struggling or

I need help or I'm lonely or I'm

depressed or I'm sad." Whatever your

whatever the feeling is. and that

person, do your friends, do your

colleagues, do your teachers have the

skills to know how to hold space? So,

the first mistake people make is they

try and fix. Don't try and fix. It's not

it's not a fixing thing, you know? Um

it's like, I had a bad day at the gym.

Nothing to fix, you know, nothing to

fix. Um but then do you know how to

listen? Do you know how to hold space?

Um and and and I think one of the

reasons more of us are struggling with

mental fitness is because we ourselves

lack the skills to help our friends who

are struggling with mental fitness. And

the more that we as a society are

equipped to help each other, the more

that there are other people there to

help us.

So, you know, if if and I have a rule

with my friends um my rule is no crying

alone. My my close friends all know this

and we all obey it. Like I'll get a call

from somebody who's a somebody who's a

significant person in the world that

people know who they are and they'll

call me and say I do you have a minute?

I'll be like yeah what's what's up?

They're like I just I think I need to

cry. I'm like go what have you what's on

your mind? And they'll tell me what's on

their mind and they will cry. And that's

my rule. My rule with my friends is no

crying alone. Because if you're at the

point of absolute frustration,

exhaustion, whatever it is that you you

can't hold it in, I'd rather you call me

or one of us and you do it with

somebody. You should never cry alone.

And and so I'm really good when I'm in a

place like this of calling somebody and

telling them because I don't want to go

through this alone. And some of my

friends do have the do have the skills

where they can say, "How do you feel?"

Oh, this is how I feel. That must be

really frustrating. Yeah, it's really

hard. Tell me more about that. Well, I'm

sort of going through this and that. And

they know how to hold space. That's all

I need. I need to somebody to sit in the

mud with me. Don't need them to fix me

or clean me off or give me a towel. I

just need him to sit in the mud with me

so I don't feel alone when I'm sitting

in the mud. And it's I think it's our

responsibility to be able to have that

skills, that skill set to do it for our

friends and the people we love or our

colleagues. Um we don't teach listening.

We don't teach difficult conversations.

The fact that there's so much

conversation about mental health right

now is not is of course in part because

we've just come through this crazy ass

thing called COVID and lockdowns and

exaggerated

politics and you know uh and divisions

in our countries and

etc etc social media sure you can pile

that on if you want but I think really

what it is the fact there's such a loud

conversation about mental health is a

spotlight light on the fact that we are

we do not know how to build deep

meaningful relationships. I think it is

an indictment on our current state of

affairs that not only do we not have the

skills to be there for our friends but

we're we're the way we're reacting to it

is by trying to seek resources to help

me rather than teach me how to help my

friends. I think we're going about it

halfass.

I was really surprised when you gave the

answer regarding that when I said the

symptoms that that have indicated to you

that you are feeling lonely.

Um I think even in my head I was

expecting it to sound more like an

absence of other humans around you

and that's the whole distinction between

being alone and being lonely. Your

answer was about how you

you feel like you're not understood

by who?

Is this friends or is this the world or

is it

um

the

I'm a middle-aged man who hasn't been

married. That not not that I care about

marriage, but I haven't even had like a

10-year relationship. And I'm realizing

some of it is self-inflicted. You know,

I chose a career path that made me

pretty undatable. You know, I was on the

road so much. It was difficult to have a

relationship. But some of it is also

managing the effects or the the symptoms

of ADHD which wasn't a thing when I was

a kid. So I couldn't be diagnosed which

I'm glad for quite frankly because I had

to learn to manage certain things myself

which became strengths as adult as

strengths as an adult. So not not not

bitter about that. I wasn't diagnosed

until I was 32.

So pretty much in life you know like and

one of the things that I've and I've

learned how to manage it really well

professionally. Like I know how to

manage my ADHD in a professional context

really well. I'm only now learning some

of the symptoms, how it affects personal

relationships and how I show up in

relationships that I didn't even

realize. So my whole life I'd be in

relationships and and women would tell

me, "You're so hard to read." And I was

like, "I'm an open book. What do you

mean I'm so hard to read? I'll tell you

anything you want to know." You know,

like and and what I've learned is people

with ADHD, not all of them, but some of

them do something called stonewalling,

which is an accident. It's not something

conscious where you're telling me

something about your day, whatever it

is, or about our relationship. And I

have I'm I have nothing to add. And so

what on my face, you see nothing.

And I I've acknowledged, oh, this is

fantastic and wonderful. This is great.

But I have nothing substantive to add.

So I just add nothing. And so the

accidental effect is, did I say

something wrong? Did I offend him? Does

he not agree?

And so I know that about myself now. So

I can say to somebody, if you're not

getting the reaction that you need, if

you need any reaction, just ask me for a

reaction. How does that make you feel?

Is that okay? Like, oh my god, that's

fantastic. Right? And I'll I'll give it

to you. Um or I'm really blunt and

forward with questions. For example, I

have a friend, she's an entrepreneur,

she's a soloreneur, she offers services

to people, and I think she's priced too

low. And I I was having this

conversation with her, and she I said,

"What what do you charge?" She told me

the price. And I said, "Why do you

charge that?" That's how I asked the

question. Why do you charge that?

And she was telling me about this just a

few about a week ago. It was really

funny. And in in my mind, I that's

perfectly legitimate question. In her

mind, it was such an aggressive affront.

Like, what do you Why do I charge that?

And I'm like, you're worth more. Why do

you charge that? You know, I said, well,

how should I have asked that question?

And I guess normal people would have

said, oh my god, you're worth so much

more than that. Why do you charge that?

You know,

but I don't. I'm just like this. So, I

recognize that in a professional

context, it's one thing. People can deal

with questions like that delivered like

that in a meeting,

but in a relationship, not so much. And

so like sitting in this space, I'm like

going through all of these mistakes or

things that I've done over the course of

years and I'm a little annoyed by

myself. You know, now I know don't want

to live life in a rearview mirror, but I

mean I can still take account and I'm

annoyed, you know, I wish I had these

skills 10 years ago, you know. So, I'm

just sitting in a period of my life

where I just, you know, I would have

liked to have had some of the

experiences

that I haven't had yet. And you know, my

my friends who are in fix it mode,

they're like, "But think of it as an

opportunity. Now you have these skills

and you thank you. I know that. But

allow me to mourn the past. That's my

loneliness. I'm just mourning. I'm in a

period of mourning. I have I can I can

mourn loss, can't I? Like if I if I lose

a friend or a loved one, you know,

allow me to just like mourn and then

I'll move forwards. Like I'm okay. I I I

will move forwards, but allow me to

mourn loss and and that's all I'm doing

is just allow me to mourn the loss and

I'll be fine. Just hold space for me.

Come and sit in the mud with me. Ask me

how I'm feeling. Ask me how I'm doing.

Just let me vent. Just sit in the mud

with me. And you know, again, I think to

your point, I think we just live in a

world where most people are ill equipped

on how to be there for a friend who's

struggling.

Can you give I learned this term the

other day, which I love. I learned it

from Lex Freedman. Can you give the

steelman argument for your friends that

are telling you to

trying to offer advice in your morning

process and trying to get you to be more

future orientated as the steelman

argument I mean is can you give the

argument for why they're doing that and

why it's a good thing

emotions are good it means you're human

like I said I believe in mental fitness

not mental health you know that it's a

that like your body you have to work out

you have to eat well, you have to sleep

all the time. It's not something you do

and then you're done. You know, we've

used that analogy before, you and I,

which is which is what the infinite game

is, which is it's like it's like I want

to be healthy. Okay. Well, it's you're

going to have to do it for the rest of

your life. It's not an event. And our

mental health, our mental fitness is

exactly the same, which is it's it's

constant and it's ups and downs. And

it's only um um a challenge or or you

need to start involving professionals if

you get stuck. You know, like if you get

stuck in sadness and you cannot get out

of it, that's a different that's a

different conversation. If you get stuck

in depression and you cannot get out of

it, if you get stuck in loneliness and

you cannot get out of it, and by the

way, the thing that I love about human

beings is we can have multiple

conflicting feelings simultaneously.

I am lonely and optimistic

simultaneously. My optimism, you know,

I'm I I'm I'm a I'm I pride myself on my

optimism. My optimism has not diminished

in the least. Optimism doesn't mean I

can't sit in a dark tunnel. Optimism

means that I believe there's a light at

the end of the tunnel. Even if that

light is far away, I'm I have an undying

belief that the future is bright. This

this too will pass, right? That doesn't

mean I enjoy it. It doesn't mean I want

to be here and I can be excited and I

can hang out with my friends and I can

have an amazing time with my friends and

then go home and still feel lonely.

Like, you can have simultaneous and

conflicting feelings. That's allowed. In

fact, it's it's it's normal. But I I I

cannot stress I think that the way that

I manage this differently than most. I

don't usually talk about it on podcasts,

but whatever. Um uh but the way I manage

it, which is different than most, is I I

I I don't wait for the phone to ring. I

call a friend and say, "Do you have a

minute? Can I can I talk?" And if a

friend is illquipped, if they start

fixing, I'll interrupt the conversation,

say, "Listen, I love you. this is not

what I need right now. I love you. I

love you. I'm going to get off the phone

right now. Okay? Because when they go

into fix it mode, it actually makes me

feel worse sometimes. The friends that

are some of the best equipped people um

are folks in the military, you know. Um

they know how to manage [ __ ] better than

almost anybody I know. Uh I've cried

with more people in uniform than I've

ever cried with people in suits. Um and

the way that we talk to each other, like

I have a friend who's a general. I've

known him for a million years. So, it's

fun been fun to watch his career. He's

now a general. And when we say goodbye

to each other, we say, "I love you." And

when we get on the phone with each

other, if it's been a long gap, he'll

say to me, "Hey, man." He, first of all,

he calls me brother. "Hey, brother."

Right? Which means something. Hey,

brother. I really miss you. And he says

things that a lot of guys don't say to

each other, you know? Um, he talks to me

like sometimes I talk to my female

friends.

Mhm.

There's it's full of emotion. It's full

of honesty and there's no machismo

whatsoever. And yet he's a warrior. He's

a combat veteran, you know. Um and he'll

say, "Hey man, I I miss you. It's been a

while." I go, "Yeah, I miss you, too."

And then we'll get off the phone. He'll

say, "Hey, I love you. I love you, too.

I'll talk to you soon." And um

though he will I would I mean he and

there a small group like him. Um, you

know, I I would call him in my most

in my darkest times and I know he would

call me. Um, um, I have another friend

and he's going through some [ __ ] and I'm

honored that when I called him up and

said, "Hey, I haven't talked to you.

What you been going through?" You know,

I just realized I haven't talked to him

in a while. And I, "Hey, what you've

been going through?" And he just let it

all out. And I could hear the

frustration. I could hear the pain. And

I didn't try and fix it. I just

encouraged him to keep talking. What

else? Go on. Tell me more. What else? Oh

my god, that must that's really Go on.

Yeah. What else? And just sat in the mud

with him. And it was an it was an honor.

I'll tell you, it was an honor that he

felt comfortable enough

to do that because I guarantee it. He,

like so many, are really good at hiding

it, faking it, suppressing it. He's a

pro. In fact, I'm sure he is where he is

partially because he's a pro. And you

know, if you have the skill set to hold

space for someone, you will have an

amazing sense of gratitude

that your friends trusted you and loved

you enough that they would go there in

front of you.

And I think that's a standard that we

should strive for.

Like I said, we're also preoccupied with

ourselves, you know. Um,

there's no

greater honor

there's no great honor than being able

to serve a friend in need.

When I see, you know, a friend sees you

sat in the mud, a friend sees me sat in

the mud, their

ill-informed love reaction is to try and

get me out of the mud. Right.

Of course, you know,

well-intentioned. I don't knock it. I

know it's well intentioned. How do I get

out the mud? The reason I asked that

question is because I know there's

someone listening to this right now who

is sat in the mud.

In many respects in my life, I'm sat in

the mud.

Um

the the thing we're all looking for is

we want empathy in the fact that we're

sat in the mud, of course. But we're

desperate for a way out of the mud,

right? That's understandable.

Where do where does the plan come from?

Where does how do we get out of the mud?

So I

if it were a prescription, you and I

wouldn't have to work anymore.

Um uh

on the subject matter of loneliness

because it's easier to focus on,

right? So I I I I think in large part

like any cooperative effort, like any

relationship and a friendship is a

relationship, right? Um uh having

colleagues is a relationship. Um, in

some part it's it's it's it's um

co-created, right? You know, you want to

show up in any kind of relationship,

professional or personal, and make it a

co-creation.

And, you know, I think when somebody

first calls you, I I don't think they're

looking for

solutions. They're looking for

companionship and and catharsis.

They're just looking not to feel like

overwhelmed. And at some point,

um, you can either ask, "Can I offer

some pointers? You're not ready for that

yet?"

"No, I'm not ready for that yet."

versus, "Yeah, yeah, go ahead." Or the

person will ask themselves, you know,

what do you think is what do you think?

How do I like what do I do?

you know, or I'll know what to do, but I

don't want to do it. Like, I know what

to do. I just need to do this. And the

person can just say, I'll do it with you

and just offer again companionship. Most

of us, believe it or not, have more

knowledge about how to get out of it

than we think

because we've dispenseed the advice in

the past

probably. You know, I think most of us

have a sense like

it's again I think part of part of it is

is allowing ourselves to feel the feels.

You know, I think if I suppress the

feelings, they would last longer. But

allowing myself to feel the feels I know

is part of the solution. You know, it's

like if you try and suppress feelings,

it makes it just it's not good.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

They're signals, right?

They're signals. They're just sign

that's all they are. And and maybe

they're telling you other things like

maybe it's maybe all of my loneliness is

telling me is like Simon you idiot just

get some sleep. Maybe that's all it's

telling me. Maybe I'm feeling lonely is

because I'm just freaking exhausted.

Turns out I've been sleeping better and

turns out I feel better. You know, maybe

I've been eating crap, you know? Maybe

I'm full of freaking sugar and fat.

Does social expectations play a role? I

am this age and I should be this by now.

Oh. Um,

I think I think that I think we we have

to say yes, right? And like the midlife

crisis is a known thing and you sort of

expect, you know, you hit middle life

and you're like, "All right, you're

going to start evaluating everything.

You know, your receding hairline, your

sagging body, you know, you're you and

comedians joke about it. We joke about

it." But I I think the new thing is the

quarterlife crisis. You know, the number

of friends that I have that are in their

mid20s or or like barely pushing 30 and

they are suffering all the things that

somebody in their midlife would suffer.

And their evaluation is different. It's

not like, oh my god, I'm closer to the

day I'm going to die than the day I was

born. It's not that. It's more like, "Oh

my god, I'm at this age and I haven't

achieved all the things I said I was

going to achieve or I'm just getting

started or I'm and and they and I and I

think now the quarter life crisis is

like a real thing."

Yeah.

And unfortunately older generations

scoff at it, you know, but I think it's

based that is very much societal

expectation. Like I'm supposed to be

here. Like the number of young people I

know who I say you're entry level. Don't

worry if you're running the place yet.

Just even if this is a bad job, if it's

toxic, get out. But there's very few

jobs that are super toxic. You know, if

you just have a bad boss, like stick

with this and learn. Like the learning

you're going to get from a bad like my

first boss was a bad boss

and I was there for a year and a half

and it was one of the best educations I

got. And by the way, the camaraderie

that I built in my team because we all

shared the same bad boss was amazing,

right? So I learned teamwork. I learned

having each other's back. I learned

people taking care of each other. We

learned how to manage and how not to do

things.

I didn't just abandon it because my boss

was bad. My point is is when I say stuff

like that to young people, they

immediately interpret that as the worst

advice ever because I'm wasting time. Or

take a gap year. I can't I'm wasting

time. Like wasting time from what? Like

what race are you? Who are you comparing

yourself to? What standard? like you

know I won't achieve the thing by by by

what like what imaginary

scale are we working on here you know

but there is this very clear imaginary

scale by which younger people young

people are pegging their life against

and the only thing I can offer is my own

is my own experience and I know it's the

worst thing to do because you know when

you're in it you're in it nobody can

think that far ahead but I and it's fun

to think about, right? Cuz I remember

when I was young in my career and things

were just starting to move, there was

this one guy I used to go to for advice

who was very much more successful than

me. Um, really buttoned up, really sort

of, you know, operationsoriented.

And he would constantly give me advice

that either he was basically either

telling me I was an idiot or made me

feel like an idiot by all the things I

wasn't doing or wasn't doing right or

should be doing or could be doing. But

it never felt right to me. And he would

say stupid things to me like, "I won't

get out of bed for, you know, x amount

of thousands of dollars." I'm like, "I

do stuff for free all the time, you

know." And and

if I didn't have my sense of purpose and

cause, if I didn't have my north star,

my why, my my vision to guide me, I

would have listened to him and it would

have been to my detriment.

um uh because he was very finite-minded

and it was very sort of like hit this

target, hit this target and thank

goodness I ignored all the advice and

flash forward my career has completely

eclipsed his. It just took longer.

Mhm. Um, and that's the point is the

point is is that the reason people don't

follow my my ideas, the people, the

reason people reject my books is because

they want my my advice or they want my

perspective to work this year.

And and I and you've and you'll hear

I've used this analogy all the time like

I will tell you how to get into shape. I

will tell you have to exercise 20

minutes a day every day. You have to eat

healthy and you can have you can only

have sugar in days that start with S,

you know. I I I like what Mark Heyman

says, which is, you know, treat sugar

like a recreational drug, you know.

And if you do these things 100% you will

be in shape and you'll be healthy. 100%.

Nobody wants that book,

right? But the problem is you have to do

it. And well, somebody will say, well,

when will I be in shape? And the answer

is I don't know. 100% it works. I don't

know when. And when I discovered

the why and I first articulated the why

and this is also important. It wasn't

just the why. I also discovered um uh

EMTT Rogers work on the law of diffusion

of innovations which I did write about

also in start with Y. That combination

of starting with Y and following the law

of diffusion I realized that 100% it was

going to work. by starting with why I

was going to attract early adopters and

early adopters would make the tipping

point. I didn't know when. I just knew

it would work and I just stuck with it.

And I and I disconnected myself

from any arbitrary

timebased

achievement,

which freaks people out, especially if

you're on a quarterly or annual

financial schedule. But I disconnected.

I knew it would work and I just stuck

with it. Turns out it worked. Some of it

worked quicker than I expected. Some of

it worked slower than I expected. But it

worked. And young people, myself

included, when I was their age, I I'm

not saying I had some like I was 100%

the same. It had to be a discovery for

me. And that discovery didn't come to my

early 30s. So my 20s were me being that

person going, "You're an idiot. I got I

can't waste time." But there's something

magical

about being on the path and just

sticking just sticking just being

disciplined and just sticking to and a

funny thing is as we're talking about

this I don't even I don't think of

myself as a disciplined person. I'm

actually very undisiplined like I'm I

don't have an exercise regime like like

I go in and out. Sometimes it works and

sometimes it doesn't. And I'm just not a

very disciplined person. And I have so

much I have so much respect for people

who are super disciplined. when they

commit themselves to something, they're

they do it and they're just really good

at sticking to the plan. I'm useless at

sticking to the plan, right? And but I'm

realizing now the only discipline I had

was I trusted in these two theories

starting with why and law of diffusion.

So apply that to the topic of someone

who is let's say 35 years old.

Yeah.

36 years old. 37 years old. Yeah.

And they are

they're lonely. Yeah,

I can't tell you how many friends I've

got and how many conversations I have to

the point that I I was think considering

writing a book and going on the process

of research who are saying to me right

now that they are single, they are

lonely. Um, their biological clock is

ticking um and they and the pressure of

them trying to find someone is so

intense that it's causing them to maybe

become less capable of finding someone.

Yeah. So, I'm trying to figure out what

what those people that are listening

need to to help them get out of that.

Well, look, there are people who are

better equipped to answer these

questions than me.

Um, but, you know, I can wax

philosophical

like so many things, you know, and I

I'll use another military analogy,

right? which is

these wonderful human beings who

volunteer to wear that uniform

are willing, many of them are willing to

risk their lives to save the life of

someone they don't even like but they

love, right? Or they trust.

And what people neglect or forget is

that that deep intense trust that they

have for each other does not show up

when they arrive on the battlefield.

They've been building it and the and the

and the organizations for whom they work

know how to build that trust that the

trust exists by the time they get into

combat. And this is when I talk about

command and control. You know, like I

talk about asking people and getting

feedback and all these things, but the

reality is is command and control also

is a real thing. So, you know, if you're

a Marine and you show up in combat, they

talk about that as managing chaos.

That's they they refer to combat as

managing chaos.

Sounds a lot like an entrepreneurial

venture. That is managing chaos, right?

And there are times where you have to be

command and control. But the problem is

is you can't be command and control

before you've earned somebody's trust.

So that you when you're back at home,

you're building trust, building trust,

building trust, building trust, building

trust. So that when we are in chaos and

I yell an order at you, I don't have

time to ask you your feelings. I don't

want your feedback. I don't need your

ideas. I need you to do as I'm telling

you right now. And you have to trust

that I'm making the best decision that I

can. I'm not going to put your life

recklessly at risk. And I even may make

a mistake and people will die because of

my mistakes. My mistakes and that's

still okay.

But you can't do command and control all

the time. It's episodic

and it's earned. And so when when COVID

struck and we first went into lockdown,

I went into command and control. I even

made an announcement to my team like,

"Hey, listen. I know we have a culture

where there's a lot of feedback and if

you're not if there's feelings hurt like

we we have that mechanism and I want to

hear all that stuff but I can't hear it

for another two weeks save it up if I'm

if I'm a bit of a if I'm a bit blunt in

a meeting tell me in two weeks I just I

don't have the bandwidth right now

because what we're doing is survival and

it worked fine that command and control

because I built up the trust it worked

fine the problem is leaders who believe

they can be in command and control all

the time right so what I'm so the reason

I'm telling you this is you're asking

two different questions. One which is

more difficult which is we need to build

these skills when we're healthy

and in a good state of mind so that when

we're in the mud we ourselves have some

equipment and some tools and our friends

that we're going to call have some

equipment and some tools. Right?

You're asking with no equipment and no

tools and I'm sitting in mud. How do I

get out? That is an entirely different

conversation that I am probably the

least equipped

to answer. there are professionals who

are much better equipped to answer that.

And what I'm saying is is is

um uh

for so that we don't find ourselves in

that situation

right now with big smiles on our face.

How's your day? Great. I'm great. Things

are great.

When are you taking that listening

class?

When are you going to practice

mindfulness and meditation? And have you

have you tried meditation?

Yeah. Yeah. My girlfriend Yeah.

My girlfriend's like a yoga meditation.

Okay. So, you're forced to do it.

Yes. Exactly.

Got it.

I have to run away from it,

right? Okay. So, for for if anyone has

ever practiced meditation, you sit still

and you focus on one thing. When they

say clear your mind, that's not true.

You don't clear your mind. That's

impossible. But you do focus on one

thing. Could be your breath. It could be

your mantra. It could be a dot on the

wall. It could be a sound. It doesn't

matter. The point is you focus on one

thing. And when you get distracted or

you have another thought like, "Ooh, did

I leave the oven on?" What you do is you

label that a thought and you push it out

of your mind and you say, "I'll deal

with that later." And you go back to

focusing on the one thing. And

there are tremendous benefits to the

self of uh of of being present and and

calm and clearheaded by practicing

meditation. But that is not the sole

purpose of meditation. Just so you can

be present. In fact, I believe that you

are not present until someone else says

you are. Right? So the reason you

practice meditation is so that when

you're sitting with a friend and they're

telling you about their good day or

their bad day, you are focused on one

thing and one thing only, what they're

telling you as opposed to waiting for

your turn to speak.

And you may have thoughts and you say,

"That's a thought. I'm going to label

that and deal with that later." and you

remain so focused and there's a bang in

the background but your eyes don't leave

your friend because you're so present at

the end of the conversation they will

say to you thank you for listening they

will say thank you for being present

they'll say thank you I feel heard

congratulations you were present

congratulations all that meditation was

worth it now the practice of meditation

though it has benefits to yourself the

reason to practice meditation is as a

service to others

the the ADHD point that you raised

And you've talked a lot about exactly

that, which is um being able to sit and

listen and and and hear.

How did you because it almost sounded

like you you self diagnosed that as

being a playing a part in your your

historic relationship challenges?

How how do you how do you know? Because

I you know what I mean? Cuz if you if

you make that sort of self diagnosis and

then you build a plan around that and

it's the wrong self diagnosis, you know,

you end up in in another

unfortunate place if that makes sense.

So if I if I had self diagnosed myself

based on that experience with my parents

um I could have been aiming at the wrong

target. So it's about this question is

about self-awareness. How does how does

one develop the self awareness? Is it

feedback? I think there's a difference

between

introspection

and awareness with accountability versus

victimization versus victimhood. Right.

By the sound of it, you didn't say, "My

parents did this to me."

No.

Right.

Not useful.

But that's victimization. It's the same

It's the same thing.

I can't have a relationship because my

parents [ __ ] me.

Yeah. because they didn't give me an

effective model and they didn't love me

enough and they didn't hug me enough and

so the reason I can't have relationships

is because of my parents.

Dismpowering.

It's disempowering. It's also

victimhood, right? Uh whereas

um okay well the cards that I was dealt

um I got a lot of good cards for some

things and in some places me maybe I got

to work a little harder on this one. So

the cards that I was dealt from family I

hold no grudge. I'm not angry at them.

They didn't have the tools. It's okay.

And um I don't I don't curse them for

it. They don't have the tools. But um I

I'm gonna have to learn the tools. You

know, other people learn it from their

parents. I'm going to have to learn it

from other sources. And I could say the

same thing about listening skills. You

know, some parents are really good at

holding space for their kids, and those

kids will learn how to hold space for

their friends because it was modeled by

their parents.

And some parents don't have the tools to

hold space for their kids. Or maybe they

work in really really horrible jobs and

so they come home and they're

short-tempered. And so, you know,

there's a chain of causation there. And

um and the kids uh aren't learning those

skills, they're going to have to learn

it from somewhere else. That's why I say

we have to teach it at work. We have to

teach these skills at work because we or

in universities because we cannot take

for granted that people are learning

these skills at home or with their

friends. What if I just smell though?

Like, and I totally [ __ ] miss the

target and I just stink. Like, I just

like I have really bad body odor, but I

thought, do you know what what it is is

I'm I'm just too picky. So, I'm trying

to figure out how we become more

self-aware as to what the real issue is.

Now, you it sounded like you'd spoken to

some of your exes or something or

I I have great relationships with many

of my exes and there's one ex I have in

particular where we broke up. We got

back together. We broke up properly and

uh she hated me for a while. Uh I

probably blamed her for the breakup. I'm

sure we blamed each other. Then at some

point we sort of like calmed down and we

went out for dinner

and we sat at the bar. I even remember

the restaurant. We sat at the bar and we

literally dissected the relationship.

And we didn't do it with accusation.

What we did was we didn't say we didn't

sit down and say you did this, you did

this, you did this, which is how we were

for the previous, you know, whatever six

months in our minds. We sat down and

said, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I did

this, I did this, and I did this." And

sometimes the other person affirmed,

"Yeah, you did that." You know, but we

showed up with accountability rather

than accusation. And at the end of

dinner, we we hug each other with

immense gratitude because it is so rare

that you get to sit down with an ex and

take not only take accountability for

the things that you screwed up, but

learn about other things you screwed up

and learn about how you were received

even if you thought you were doing

things right. And you you know, in

everything else, if you have a failed

business venture, you sit down and you

you have a hotwash. You sit down and you

sort of like go back and see what went

wrong so you don't make the same

mistakes. You do that in almost every

respect of our lives professionally, but

very rarely do you ever get the

opportunity personally because usually

the two people don't want to talk to

each other anymore, right? But we sat

and by the way, there was no expectation

that a friendship was going to come out

of this. We just sort of like I don't

know why we showed up, but we both did

and we would both admit that it was one

of the greatest things we could ever

have done. Um because we got to find out

how we were in the relationship, which

usually you never find out where you

are. So to go back to your point, I

think feedback is the thing, you know,

um you know, the only common factor in

all our failed relationships is us, you

know, you could you you don't you know,

it's their fault only lasts for a

period. At some point, there's some

accountability to be had. And if you

don't know what it is, there's something

to be said for picking up the phone and

calling an ex. And I don't mean the one

that just ended up like a week ago, but

like give it a give it some time.

calling an old ex and say I know you're

probably surprised to hear from me and

by the way you know it's it's been a

long time I know and the reason I'm

calling is because I'm really taking

myself on and first of all I uh I

probably owe you a bunch of apologies

for how I showed up in the relationship

but I really want to learn how I showed

up. Are you willing to have a

conversation and just tell just give me

some some point of view that I don't

have. Do

you know if I did that with my ex,

right?

Yeah. Um, I I don't believe there's

anything that they would say that would

surprise me. However, I do think they'd

say things that I've never acknowledged.

Does that make sense?

Um, at my core, I think I'd go, "Yeah,

now you said it." Do you know what I

mean? [ __ ]

So, that's a real So, then it it gives

you a space. Look, you can't screw up

that relationship. It's screwed up.

So, in that space, you can be like,

"Yeah, I did that." And you're not

risking anything. Even the most

introspective people in the world

don't have total objectivity on

themselves

and can't see all the angles.

Um you don't have to agree with things.

That's the thing you know which is just

because somebody says something doesn't

mean that it's true.

The the way the way we when we do

360deree uh feedback sessions in our

company for example the the counsel we

offer is

you you know you have to listen to what

the person is saying. The only thing

you're allowed to say in response is

thank you because they're giving you a

gift by giving you this feedback that

they would rather not give you because

it's easier for them not to give it to

you. So just say thank you. Don't argue.

Don't give excuses. Don't explain. Just

say thank you.

And you don't have to agree with it. You

can ignore it. However, we say if you

have an emotional response to it like

anger,

it's probably true.

Did you have an emotional response

to some of it? Sure. Of course. And if

you dis if you disagree, you just you

say you listen to it and you go, "No,

that's not true." Right? Um but if you

have an emotional response to something

where you start getting agitated or

angry or wanting to defend yourself,

that nerve that they touched, h maybe

there's a there there.

I wonder if you have a thought an

opinion on this. One of the

conversations that's adjacent to this I

probably do.

You probably do, which is great.

Um, one of the kind of adjacent

conversations that I've often had with

my friends when we're talking about love

and dating, I think when we go for

dinner, we often have this as well, is

is it becoming harder because of the

design and the nature of the modern

world for us to find love and to keep it

because you know once upon a time my

argument might assert that we lived in

villages there was 20 people that I told

a story the other day to my team that I

worked in this call center in Manchester

20 of us in this call center many many

years ago and first couple of days in

didn't wasn't interested in anybody. I

got 6 months in, fell in love with the

girl next to me. And I I I almost equate

that to like the village. We have a very

small context, so it was easier to find

love.

Is the design of the modern world making

it more difficult, do you think, for us

to find love?

So I think well simple answer is it's

definitely added a layer of complication

because now love is treated like

shopping. You know, we shop for partners

like we shop for [ __ ] on Amazon. You

know, it's like you scroll through, you

find one that looks good, and you click

like.

Good reviews

and you Yeah, good reviews. Look, it's

definitely convenient and it's

definitely made life a lot easier. And

you never have to deal with rejection

because you don't know if they swiped

left on you. You just assume that they

never saw your picture, right? Like it

doesn't actually say rejected, you know?

Um uh uh I think the problem with it is

is it's grass is always greener because

it's so easy, you know, to just go

swiping. Uh and you know, sometimes you

treat it like Instagram. You know, I'll

I've done this where I've sat in my bed

late at night because instead of looking

at social media, I'm looking at a dating

app and I'm swiping right like I'm

clicking like on a post and then it says

you're connected. I'm like, "Ah, damn

it." because I don't actually want to

like go through the effort of like

connecting. I was just I was just liking

the post, you know. Um Scott Galloway

talks about this. Uh I can't remember

what the numbers I can't remember what

the numbers are, but the point the point

is is there's a massive disparity of men

that just don't ever connect.

Um and there's nothing more dangerous in

a modern society than a lonely man,

right? And if you look at terrorism and

if you look at mass homicide and things

like that, it's very often a lonely man,

you know, and you add in sex and um uh

and

um and incelss and you know, you know,

the Middle East for example, you know,

it's 25% at during the height of

terrorism, you know, a bunch of years

ago, it was 25% unemployment in the

region in in a shame based society where

you have young men living at home and

who aren't employed and they've never

had sex because there's no sex before

marriage and how are you ever going to

meet a girl when you live at home and

you don't have a job and then all of a

sudden that stress comes out somewhere

and I think we don't talk about sex and

sexuality as a part of um our other

behaviors and I I for some reason

because we we've we think it's bad to

connect you know sex life with how

people show up in the world but you take

somebody who's sexually frustrated a

sexually frustrated men in their mid to

late 20s

um and all of that pressure and

insecurity and you know now desperation

like it comes out in horrible ways and

the the need to exert control comes out

in horrible ways different conversation

Scott Galloway I said you know has some

fantastic numbers on this so I think um

you know the dating apps uh aren't

necessarily

fair that's one thing you know it's not

like everybody everybody's going to find

somebody. But I do think that there's

something wrong with shopping for

people. Um, and I the thing that I

lament about dating apps that's really

and maybe this is just me. Uh, cuz I'm

hate first dates.

Um, oh god,

the worst. Um, but the reason you know

them pre pre-dating

apps or let's not pre-dating apps, it's

just when there's no dating app being

used. The way that we traditionally

would meet somebody is you meet them at

a party, at a dinner party, you meet

them at the pub, you, you know, you bump

into them at a museum, you make small

talk, or you eye them up from across the

room, and there's some attraction. And

then one of you musters up the courage

to go up and start flirting and have a

conversation. And at some point, you

say, "Can I get your number? I'd love to

I'd love to continue this." And they'll

say, "Yes, or no." And the flirting and

the initial trashing has already

happened. And so the first date is

actually the first date after the

initial attraction and flirting. Now

with dating apps, the flirting, the

initial attraction, the attempt to court

someone is all happening simultaneously

on the first date. There's a lot there's

a lot of pressure for a first meeting

where, you know, when you meet somebody

in in IRL, it's like, you know, it's

happened. The initial attraction has

already happened. Um, there's no

expectation they're not they're not

going to look like their picture.

They're going to look like exactly what

they're going to look like when you met

them.

And it's dinner, so they could be 3

hours allocated. It could be expensive

meal,

whatever it is. Um, I don't I I think

there's nothing quote unquote wrong with

online dating. I just think we we like

everything. Like there's nothing wrong

with online shopping,

but there's the reason that bricks and

mortar stores still exist and that

Amazon is opening stores. It's because

people like to go shopping. It's a

hunter gatherer thing. Like there's

entertainment. It's more than the than

the purchase. It's more than the

transaction. It's the browsing we enjoy,

you know? It's it's in our DNA, you

know? and and and I think that there's

nothing wrong with online, but I think

that that making an effort to do, you

know, in real life things

should be should be included, should be

balanced. You know, it's like I like

everything in the world, I'm a great

believer in balance. I don't usually

rail for or against something. I'm

usually about talking about balances and

imbalances. Even social media like much

so much has been said about you know

what I've said about social media and

millennials etc. I'm not against it. I'm

talking about balance and it's out of

balance you know uh uh you know even

corporate culture you know I'm not

against many of the modern things. I'm

against the imbalance you know

capitalism is unbalanced in in its

current form. So when we usually feel

discomfort or anger or frustration it's

usually due to the imbalances.

Um, isn't that what where this

conversation started? You know, that you

know, feelings of loneliness,

something's out of balance, you know,

and this is why I call it fitness rather

than health because fitness is the

attempt to maintain equilibrium, to find

balance. Sometimes it tips one way and

sometimes it tips the other way. And

it's you're constantly working to

maintain balance. That's what all of

this stuff is. Business is the same.

You're an entrepreneur. It's feast or

famine. Like, it's never the right

amount, you know, and you're constantly

working on balance. And I think that's

why that's the strongest argument for

playing the long game, which is it's

always teetering.

That means you have to constantly be

alert and constantly be working because

if it tips too far good,

it's going to tip the other way. Don't

don't rest on your laurels. Make make

sure you have got money in the bank.

Like stock markets just don't go

straight up. It's not how it works,

right? At the same time, when it goes

the other way, it's like don't worry,

this too shall pass. this also won't

last. Start working on some skills that

you maybe haven't worked on. Start

reaching out to people. Start

apologizing. You know, if you've been so

self-involved with yourself and now

you're in a lonely place. Sometimes

being lonely like is calling up a friend

and saying, "I've been an [ __ ] and I

am sorry." And I'm looking I'm in a

really dark place right now. And I'm

just looking back thinking, "Oh my god,

I've been so self-involved

that there's no one around me to be

there for." And I am so so sorry. You

know, and again, it goes right back to

everything we were talking about, which

is it's a it's accountable for my it's

accountable for me versus victim of me,

you know, that that I'm not a victim of

the world around me, you know? Um,

what impact has that had on your

self-esteem?

The the the realization, the awareness

that you you are feeling lonely, has it

had any impact on your self-esteem at

all? Does it? especially some of those

confronting some of those tough truths

from the past.

It's a good question. You know, again,

I'll go back to what I said before. I'll

go back to what I said before, which is

um

you can have we can have multiple

feelings at the same time even if those

feelings are opposite. So, I can be

insecure and confident at the same time,

right? But so much of it is situational,

right? I'm not insecure every moment of

every day. Of course not. Nobody is. But

I'm not confident every moment of every

day. Of course not. Nobody is. And if

you're stuck in one of those things,

then there's a problem. If like if you

really are overly confident every moment

of every day with no actual self-doubt

in your mind, there's something wrong

there. There's something there

divergence going on there, right? Um we

know this. We know that narcissists are

actually filled of self-loathing. You

know, for all their bluster and power,

they hate themselves, right? We know

this. Um and again, I think it's all

situational. I think it's all and so and

I've I I I've talked about this which is

which is I don't believe in you and I

have talked about this which is I don't

believe in strengths and weaknesses or

right or wrong. I believe everything is

contextual. So you know people do these

evaluations what are my strengths what

are my weaknesses. know what are your

characteristics and what are your

attributes and then once you know those

things you have to know in what contexts

those characteristics or attributes are

advantages and in what contexts those

attributes are disadvantages and work

very hard to put yourself in context

where you're going to be working to your

strengths. So if you have a natural

capacity for maths, right, you're just

really you're just really good. Like

people say out numbers and you just add

them up in your head immediately and you

don't have to pull out your fingers,

right? You're just good at it, right?

Put yourself in a situation where that's

an advantage. If if you are maths like

incapable,

don't become an accountant, no matter

how many people tell you it's a good

thing to become an accountant, right?

It's just not going to go well for you.

So you can go down the list of our

personal attributes and I have

attributes

um where for example I think out loud.

Is that a strength or a weakness?

Context dependent.

Context dependent, right? Put me on a

stage, ask me a question, let me wax

philosophical, give me a podcast on a

microphone, give me one question, and

four hours later, you know, I'm still

talking. You know, advantage, right?

sit me down on a team when I'm having a

team meeting and somebody says something

and I'm thinking out loud. I'm now

dominating the meeting.

Maybe I need to learn how to

scale that back a little bit. In the

diary of a CEO, we have hundreds of

questions that have been left by our

guests. And we've put them on these

cards. And on these cards, you have the

question that's been left in the Diver

CEO, the name of the person who wrote

the question. And if you turn it over,

there's a QR code. If you scan that

code, you can see which guest answered

the question and watch the video of them

answering it. Every time I've done this

podcast and every time we've asked the

kind of questions we ask here, I feel a

tremendous sense of affinity to the

guest. And our aim with these cards is

that you can create that sense of

connection through vulnerability at home

with the people you love the most. And I

have some good news for you. As of

today, you can add your name to the

waiting list to be the first in line to

get your own set of conversation cards

at the conversation.com.

That is the conversationcards.com.

Over the last couple of how long, maybe

4 months, I've been changing my diet,

shall I say? Many of you who've really

been paying attention this to this

podcast will know why. I've sat here

with some incredible health experts and

one of the things that's really come

through for me which has caused a big

change in my life is the need for us to

have these superfoods, these green

foods, these vegetables. And then a

company I love so much and a company I'm

an investor in and then a company that

sponsored this podcast and that I'm on

the board of recently announced a new

product which absolutely spoke to

exactly where I was in my life and that

is Hu and they announced Daily Greens.

Daily Greens is a product that contains

91 superfoods, nutrients, and

plant-based ingredients, which helps me

meet that dietary requirement with the

convenience that Hule always offers.

Unfortunately, it's only currently

available in the US, but I hope I pray

that it'll be with you guys in the UK,

too. So, if you're in the US, check it

out. It's an incredible product. I've

been having it here in LA for the last

couple of weeks, and it's a game

changer. What are those layers that

you've you've peeled off recently? I I

can think of layers that I've peeled off

in the last, you know, couple of months

with with people close to me that I was

always scared to peel off before, but

I've had to in order

like what

um so with my girlfriend, I you know, I

reflect and I go I don't think I ever

told her truly that I'd ever had like a

bad day

or that I was like feeling bad about

anything. I think I'd always just had

this wall up. I thought because part of

me stupidly thought that if I tell her

when I'm having a bad day or I'm feeling

anxious or whatever, then she'll start

talking about it and it'll make me more

anxious and then I'll have to calm her

down. So, I just give it to myself. And

then in the last, you know, in the last

3 to 6 months when I felt anxious,

yep,

I've told I slowly ran the experiment of

what happens if I just tell her about a

little bit of it.

Yeah.

That experiment went well. So, I told

her that a little bit more and to the

point now where I've told her completely

how I'm feeling even on my best and

worst days.

Um,

and I would never have done that before

because it made me feel weak.

Yep.

It made me feel like I was like not the

tough masculine boyfriend that she would

be attracted to.

Obviously, and I have to say this

surprisingly, it's caused deeper

connection

of course

and deeper understanding which is

exactly what I needed. I needed

understanding. I needed and I also

created a space where we could say,

"Listen, when I'm feeling like this,

this is how I'd love you to to respond,

which often is just like

just just listen just sit in the mud

with me." Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. And don't don't don't

necessarily say anything. Don't try, you

know, your point about fixing it. My

girlfriend, she's so through all of her

love and and I'm the same with her and

I'm just the same with everybody. I will

always try and fix.

Yeah. It it men are worse than women

come when it comes to fixing. Uh I I've

been on the receiving end of that. I

dated somebody who if I asked her, "How

are you?" Great, was the only answer she

ever gave me.

That's all I've ever said to people.

And uh and it actually made it very

difficult for me to get close to her

because I knew that she was having bad

days. I could tell when she was

frustrated and she and so when somebody

puts on that brave face and always wants

to be great for their partner, it's the

most selfish thing you can do because

you're denying them that awesome joy of

being able to be there for you. M

remember as social animals we want to

take care of the people we love and how

dare you how dare you deny them the the

unbelievable honor of getting to sit in

the mud with you. You know it is it is a

joy that human beings get to experience.

And one of the things if you can by the

way the biology proves it that one of

the things that releases oxytocin which

is that feeling of love and connection

and trust is shared struggle. Shared

struggle releases oxytocin, which is why

when families go through tragedy, they

get closer. Which is why when societies

go through hurricanes, there's intense,

you know, politics get put aside and we

support each other, right? And it's the

same in a relationship, which is if you

allow someone to sit and struggle with

you, it actually deepens the

relationship

biologically.

Um, so but what we're talking about is

risk. What we're talking about is being

vulnerable, making, you know, and it

requires more courage, as you've

learned. It actually requires more

strength to say, "I'm anxious today,"

than it does to lie and say,

"Everything's great." That's the irony.

Superficially, it's stronger, but in

reality, it's cowardice. And by the way,

that doesn't make it easy. The words are

easy, and I've definitely been there,

and you've been there. Um but I I think

that if we like someone um and it only

and I always say leadership is about

going first. It's why we call you

leader, right? Doesn't mean you're have

the answers. It doesn't mean you're

right. It just means you st stepped

first into the unknown that we uh took

the risk to go first. And so in a

relationship, one of you can take the

lead.

One of you can go first to set the

example of what it looks like and feels

like to say, "I'm having a bad day

today. And I don't need you to fix it. I

know what I'm going through. I want you

to I want to tell you all of this stuff

because I want you to be there with me

and I want to be there with you cuz I

don't want to feel this way alone." And

that key second step which I I learned

literally in the car this weekend with

my partner was you then need to work

with them to educate them on and vice

versa on how you would like to be held

correct

in that moment which is actually a

really difficult thing because

um for example I give you an example

with me and my partner when I'm going

through those moments I go really quiet

y

I shut down I'm glued to my phone and so

if she says something to me I My brain

almost viewed it as like why is she

bothering me in my hard moment? So I

might say something like babe I'm just

dealing with something and then it it

always seemed to me like she'd ask me

more questions of course.

Hey babe look at this. Come look at

this. Look at this.

I'm trying.

I'm thinking I just told her that

I'm dealing with something. She's making

it worse. She's trying to give me more

stuff to deal with.

So I had this conversation with her. I

go and I said to her let's let's just

create a safe space here.

This is how I feel. I feel like when I'm

going through something and I'm dealing

with something and I shut down and look

at my phone, the amount of irrelevant

questions you ask me then increased

considerably. And then she gave me her

perspective on that situation. Then we

kind of um formed a deal about in those

moments

the first thing I'm doing wrong is I'm

going babe I'm dealing with something

and I'm saying with with a certain tone

and a lack of love and empathy that's

immediately making her feel abandoned

and rejected

of course.

So I'm going babe I'm dealing with

something. So she said to me, "If you

say it in this way, if you say, "Babe, I

love you, but could I just have five

minutes because something's something's

up and I just need to work through

this?" Her reaction would have been

totally different.

Of course.

And it and having that second stage of

like, "Let's find a solution together