People in power who haven't understood

their why can lead us down some dark

tunnels. We are in a really tough time

right now. The one and only Michelle

Obama, the former first lady, and her

brother Craig Robinson are sharing their

rare perspectives into a world very few

ever get to see. I grew up in a

predominantly black neighborhood and we

were taught foundational values so that

we could function in our society. But

growing up, I was just checking boxes.

And then I met Barack Obama. He showed

up in my life as the opposite of a box

checker. You rejected him at first,

right? Yeah. I was even trying to

introduce him to some of my friends. He

said, "Well, why don't we go out?" And

what did you think of him? Honestly, I

was like, "He may last 2 months." I

remember my mom saying, "Well, at least

he's tall."

But the next thing, you know, we were on

our way to building our lives together.

And my initial reaction was, don't do

this. There would be death threats. How

do you raise kids in the White House?

How would we afford it? Did you ask for

any promises if he were to win? I didn't

know what that journey was going to be

and what I would need to negotiate for

myself. And if I had known what I know

now, I should have said, Michelle, I was

watching the coverage of your decision

to not go to Trump's inauguration. What

was the thinking behind that?

The truth was is that

this has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to the show

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for you every single week. We'll listen

to your feedback. We'll find the guest

that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much. Michelle Craig, what do I need to

know about your earliest context to

understand the adults? And I use that

word intentionally because I know that's

what your your parents were intent on

raising. The adults that are in front of

me today.

Wow. that starts at 7436 South Ullet,

you know, the the the hub of it all.

That was the the home that we grew up in

on the south side of Chicago. And it was

a teeny tiny house. Uh we lived uh above

our aunt Robbie. It was a single family

home, a bungalow on the south side of

Chicago. And our aunt Robbie was married

to uh her husband Terry and they owned

the home. Uh, and they had a little

bitty almost one-bedroom, two-bedroom

apartment over the home. So, it was a

two family home. We were surrounded by

extended family. That community of

people that you probably because people

didn't have a lot of resources, people

lived with each other. You know, you

shared spaces, you lived next to one

another. and we lived with our great

aunt because it helped our parents save

some money and get us in a better

neighborhood because my father was a

city worker. He was a working-class guy,

didn't have a college education, and

working for the city was a really stable

job because it gave you benefits and

some stability. And my mom wanted to

stay home uh and and raise kids. So, in

order to save that kind of money, we

banned together and lived with our aunt

Robbie. and all of the adventures and

the lessons learned when I think about

my foundational values that house really

and all the experiences and

conversations. The beginning of my

kitchen table happened on 74th in Uclid

and I I talk about it because you think

it was a palace but this was a little

home. We shared a bedroom most of our

lives because there would just wasn't

room for us to each have our own room.

And we shared the space, one bathroom.

There was no dining room. There was just

a kitchen. And the way it was set up,

how it was supposed to be used, it was a

one-bedroom apartment.

And the living room was the room that we

shared as a bedroom. And the one bedroom

it had was where my mom and dad lived.

And the whole thing could have been 700

square f feet. Yeah. You talked about

foundational values. Mhm. What were

those foundational values that you

learned in that location?

And how did your parents teach you those

foundational values? And I asked that

with great curiosity because as I read

through both of your

books, there are moments in your career

where as adults in your late 20s where

those values show up so clearly over and

over and over again. And I'm I was as I

was reading I was thinking gosh what did

their parents do to orientate them in

such a clear way where both at key

moments in both of your careers you make

decisions not to get a pay rise or not

to go for the thing that is higher

status and to do something else either

something that's aligned with your

passions and hobbies or something that's

in service of others.

So what were those values and how did

your parents instill those in you? I I

think our parents modeled it. I mean, if

I were to think of

one one word that would describe my

father, he was just a decent man.

Decent, honest, hardworking, and loyal,

trustworthy. I mean, these were the kind

of things that we talked about. We we

didn't have material stuff. He couldn't

provide that, but he provided a set of

lessons about what it meant to be a good

friend. Um he was the elder in his

family uh the oldest of what five and my

mom was the middle child. And uh he he

took care of everyone. Um even though he

had multiple sclerosis and walked with

assistance. He had a cane when we were

younger. I never knew my father to walk

without the assistance of a cane. And MS

was a progressive disease. So over the

course of his life, he just got weaker

and weaker and weaker, but he was the

strongest person in our orbit with

everyone. Never took a sick day. Never

took a sick day. He was the father that

fathered all the other kids in the

neighborhood, you know. So when Craig

was playing basketball, he was the

person that was at most of the practices

if he could be if his shift allowed. he

was the dad in the neighborhood where a

lot of kids didn't have those kind of

role models. Um, and even though we

didn't have a

lot, you know, there was there was never

a time when my father wasn't going to

help somebody. So, you know, I guess

those values where you you you take care

of people, you know, money doesn't

really matter. That's not the thing that

makes you great. It's how you show up in

the world. It's your word. It's um you

know how you treat other people. To

Misha's point, he was the guy who was

giving kids rides to practice and to

games because their parents couldn't go

and he would be sharing stories, sharing

his values. It was just embedded in his

being to pass on knowledge that he had.

And and with regard to my mom, you know,

my mom, I think, is where I at least

where I get my philanthropic gene from,

not with money cuz we didn't have any,

but with our time and with our resource,

whatever resources we had. What was

behind all of this was unconditional

love.

It's a tool in the toolbox that you

sometimes don't even realize is there if

you're privileged enough to, right?

because it's that tectonic plate that

sits underneath you that you never can

really see, but gives you a certain

sense of I guess risk and and uh go get

it. Well, and and knowing that, you

know, it's not just unconditional love,

but our parents believed us. They valued

our voices. I mean, they really liked to

hear us talk. They they encouraged us to

think out loud and to problem solve and

to come to us with their problems but

not be the ones that were going to solve

it. And I and this came in very handy

when you're a kid in public school

because you know in public school south

side of Chicago teaching was kind of

uneven. You know one year you'd get a

teacher that cared and and invested in

the kids. Another grade you'd have a

teacher that didn't care. And I remember

distinctly I started second grade and I

went to a classroom that was completely

chaotic. The teacher clearly didn't want

to be there. And I knew this in second

grade. And there was no order. We didn't

have homework. We weren't doing regular

lessons. And I knew that something was

wrong. And I would come home at lunch

and I'd complain about we nothing

happened today at school, you know, and

I'm I don't know what second grade is

supposed to be, but I don't feel like

I'm getting what I need to get out of

second grade. It took a month of coming

home and complaining. And my mom was

quietly listening. But she wasn't just

listening, she was plotting. And it was

a month in, she went up to the school,

watched herself, and saw that this

teacher not only wasn't teaching, but it

appeared that she didn't even like kids.

So, she went to the principal's office

and read them the riot act. I don't know

what she said or what she did, but three

of us were pulled out of the class for

testing. And I just remember I just

didn't have to go into that class. And I

spent a couple of weeks taking some

specialized test. We were just doing

bubble tests. didn't know what it was.

Um, got the results and the results

proved that I could skip second grade

and it was a lifesaver for me. But I'll

never forget my mom finally did. I would

hear her complaining of my dad, this

teacher, you know, these teachers who

don't care about these kids. She had

gotten us out, but she was worried about

the kids who were stuck in that second

grade class, who didn't have parents who

were their advocates, who, you know,

were going to spend probably a wasted

year in second grade missing whatever

they were going to miss. But that was

one of those instances where I knew that

if a cry for help from me was heard by

my mother and acted upon, she could have

been one of those mothers who said,

"Well, just, you know, life is life.

Just get it together." But she knew

there was something different in what I

wanted and what I needed and she, you

know, she made it happen. Does that

teach you to respond to others who cry

for that help? I probably does. I mean,

I still think about the kids who were

left behind. I mean, there's just

something that that really touches me

about kids who are as bright as we are

because we grew up with them. You know,

my mother saw them. Uh, and the only

difference between me and them was that

they had a mother that cared. And a lot

of their lives looked totally different

from ours because of that. And I find

myself being that advocate for those

kids, those the the kids who were

underestimated and under supported. And

that turns out to be kids, most kids all

over the world. So I do find that that

moment for me was a defining in in a

pretty fundamental way about how I how I

fight for kids and the way that I saw my

mom fight for me

race. One of the um startling things

with these two photos Mhm. mainly

because I think it's this way round but

um

this is I believe what second grade or

something that was first grade. first

grade and then this is seventh eighth

seventh or eighth grade. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a lot less white people in the

second photo which means that which

assumes that white people started

leaving your school. Oh, absolutely.

They leaving the neighbor leaving the

whole of Southshore. My my question

really is about what role did race play

in your childhood? Because I think about

my own childhood and it's quite a

prominent persuasive force in who I

became and what I thought about the

world and really what I thought about

myself. So race is an issue as young

people in Chicago. What role did it

play?

I think there was a lot of race pride in

our family. Um there was this

feeling this understanding that um uh

because of people's prejudice, there

would be a lot of white people that

would underestimate you, that would

mistreat you, that would assume things

about you. our family, our entire family

on both

sides, really smart, talented, gifted

people to have a family that big and to

have and but all workingclass people,

right? So, we lived among sort of real

regular excellence, you know? I mean,

people who were teachers and who were

who were engineers, all of our cousins

were people who were expected do to do

well in school. So, we were taught like

no one's better, smarter than you. You

know, you're capable. My father was that

voice for a lot of our cousins if they

didn't have that kind of energy in their

lives. It was always like, you got this

and you know what you're doing. So, in

our home, there was race pride. But when

you, you know, live in a, when we moved

into Southshore into Robbie's house, our

aunt Robbiey's house, most of my

neighborhood friends were white kids.

Um, Rachel Dempsey and Susan Yaker and

uh, Sof Sophenant Conupant who was a

Korean girl because we lived by a

hospital and her mother was a nurse. So

it was a very mixed the the stewards who

were you know they they were a black

family but could pass for white. I mean

it was just sort of some of everyone in

the neighborhood. Miss Mason who was the

little white lady across the street and

our neighbors were the Mendozas, the

Mexicans. Um you know it was sort of

everywhere all around us and everyone

got along. Neighbors knew one another.

We played with each other. I went to

Rachel's house and for lunch and you

know, but then one year it was like the

lights went off for the white people and

they were gone without a trace. They

call this white flight. This was white

flight and action. Yeah. Yeah. For

anyone that doesn't have context on

white flight, what is white? It's the

sociological occurrence of what happens

in communities when black people sort of

start making their way up

socioeconomically and can buy homes or

rent homes in neighborhoods that are

predominantly white. So instead of uh

white people accepting it, they sell

their homes on mass. There's a sort of

undercurrent of we better get out

because these black families coming in

are going to ruin the neighborhood and

bring down property values. So you

better sell now and go go further south

into the southern suburbs. And so when

you're young, you you kind of know

something is going on. You know, it's

not like we were sitting around the

kitchen table talking about white

flight. But what you do know and you

take in as a child is like these people

are running from

us. You know, it's like my dad who is

this, you know, amazingly kind and

generous person who would would have

been good for a lot of these people's

kids, these white folks kids to get to

know and be around us who turned out to

be who we were and we were always going

to be that. You're running for us. Well,

our feeling was like, well, how stupid

is racism and how stupid are you for not

really looking and getting to know? So,

so race to me and in my household was

just a dumb manifestation of ignorant

people, but we were taught to keep

moving through it. How do you stop it

getting to you? One of the remarkable

things I noticed even when we spent some

time together yesterday

was there is no apparent bitterness. And

there's one would say that there's

reason to be because when you're so

powerful and so prominent and so well

known, you're exposed to everything. And

going through that experience in those

early years and then going through the

everything that happened thereafter,

there doesn't appear to be any

bitterness. There doesn't appear to be

any chip on the shoulder, any anger.

Yeah. Sometimes there is. Yeah, we just

don't show it. We just don't show it.

But I I will say at least from my

standpoint, mom and dad, but mom

especially, she she taught us

empathy almost to a fault, right? So,

she always said, you remember how she

always said, "Put yourself in the other

person's shoes." and she would always

say, "You never know what's going on in

someone else's home." And so I always

approached negativity toward me with

empathy. That was the first thing. It's

like, "Oh, what's what's what happened

to you? What happened to you that made

you so mean and evil?" The other thing

that our parents were really big on

was do not care what anybody else who's

not sitting at this table thinks. Mhm.

If we ever said somebody said something

and it affected the way we behaved,

that's when you saw anger from my

parents. That's when you get into

trouble. You got in trouble with my

parents when that I mean it was

crackback right away. What would they

say back? They they would be like, "So,

you're gonna tell you're telling me that

what whoever this is over here said is

more important to you than what you hear

around this table, then you can go live

with so- and so."

I mean, you know, if our admonitions in

our house were always conversations, it

was discussions. And you you knew when

your parents were disappointed. You knew

when you had struck a a nerve. And it

was never about, you know, just making a

mistake or, you know, it it was about

thinking in a way that felt oppressive,

internally oppressive. They didn't like

that kind of thinking in us. They wanted

us to feel our own power. They never

wanted us to surrender the way we

thought about ourselves to the rest of

the world because they probably

understood that they couldn't trust the

way the rest of the world would treat

us, right? So you can't you they they

knew that we couldn't be so locked into

what the world would say because the

world was grounded in racism and that

you know a little black boy more so even

my brother they were probably more

concerned with him because he was going

to encounter it every day as he got

taller and bigger and smarter because

all of the men in our lives had

experienced someone trying to knock them

down a peg or two. I think our parents

understood that that was waiting for

both of us and it was waiting for my

brother in particular. So, they wanted

to arm him with enough self-esteem to

fill him up at the table where he was

safe to give him the tools to just embed

in him a level of empathy so that he

wouldn't become angry because anger for

a young black boy was dangerous, you

know. Um, so there was a real clever way

of um allowing us to have these

conversations but filling us up with

empathy so that we could function in in

a racist society. Being underestimated,

it's a word that I saw throughout your

book and it's a word you you mentioned a

second ago.

You knew you were going into an

underestimated world, if I can call it

that, a world that was going to

underestimate you because of your race

and and things like that. But it's so

clear to me that you had your shoulders

back regardless. And I I spoke to

Valerie. Do you know Valerie? Of course

you know Valerie. You worked with

Valerie for many decades. And um she was

a sort of an early mental figure in your

life, Michelle. Yes, she was. And she

actually wrote me a letter about you.

She describes that she's never met

someone in her life that was so clear on

what they wanted to achieve in the world

in terms of the social good and the

impact they wanted to have but was so

unbelievably confident and high

conviction. And when I think about when

you went to Harvard and studied law

there was what 30% of the people

attending were were women and then a

tinier percentage were were black women.

And you were aware again of being

underestimated but again shoulders back

it seemed. Where does that come from in

you?

um

you living through the incorrectness of

that of that underestimation, right?

First of all, I grew up, you know,

fortunately in a predominantly black

neighborhood after white flight happened

where

um everyone assumed I was smart, right?

I grew up as a the saludiatoran in my

grammar school. I went to a top high

school. I, you know, so you I had the

the fortune of growing up in a

validating black environment, you know,

which is we talk about that a lot with

black students, whether they should be

going to H.B.CU. And what happens when

you get pulled out into a mixed

environment where you are so

underestimated so early, you know, you

you start, we talked about the messages

that you start telling yourself. I

didn't have that because when we were

young, you know, my mentors, my

teachers, the coaches, my dance

teachers, they were all people who if I

made a mistake or if they um doubted me,

it was because not because of my race,

it was because they I disappointed

somebody in some other way, right?

So by the time I hit Princeton,

thankfully I had enough internal data

that I could do a lot of things that I

was better, smarter, sharper than they

would give me credit for. And then it

was confirmed when I walked onto

Princeton's campus as an undergrad,

feeling a little intimidated because it

was an Ivy League school and I wasn't a

great test taker. Although I was an

outstanding student, I wasn't a

standardized good standardized test

taker. All those numbers said that I

shouldn't do well at Princeton. Um, and

so I came in as an affirmative action

kid. Sort of feeling like maybe I don't

belong in these ivory towers and maybe

these kids coming from these other

schools are really so much smarter and

better than I am. And then I sat on that

campus and I looked around and I was

like, "Oh my god, well, there's all

kinds of affirmative action that they

never talk about." You know, there's

wealth and legacy. Uh there there's

athletic uh affirmative action. There

were a lot of kids that were on that

campus and as I've

learned continue to gain access to these

seats of power that have nothing to do

with their raw academic ability. there.

She there there are a lot of bright kids

who go to these schools, but there are a

lot of bright kids whose parents get

them into these schools. And when I got

on campus and I came out of my first

semester with straight A's, I was like,

what's the what are you talking about?

What what are you who are you? Why are

you trying to mess with my head in this

way when you guys are you you're not

even working as hard as me? But that was

it was infuriating, but it was freeing

because I was like, I get it now. This

you're just trying to get into my head.

You're scared of me. You know, you don't

want me competing with you. And I think

it was at that that period going to one

of the top schools that I was like, I'm

done. I am done worrying about whether I

belong here. You know, this is a scam.

Um, so that I think that really I came

out of Princeton just feeling

like, you know, let me at him, you know,

you you know, for forget all this stuff.

And now I'm trying to tell other kids

that. It's like I'm coming down from the

mountaintop with the with the tablet of

truth and going, "Do not let these

people scam you. This is all a racket."

What's the scam? That you don't belong.

That they're smarter. That they work

harder. that they know more, that they

deserve this more than you do. That's

not it's it's just not true. And so from

then on, I was like, you prove that I

don't belong here. You know, I'm going

to sit at these tables and I am going to

run it from now on. Why Why am I

listening to you? Why don't you listen

to me? I think that experience for me

was freeing in an odd kind of way. And a

lot of kids don't get access. They're

just blocked out and they're it's sort

of like they're told, "Don't look behind

the curtain because you don't belong."

And they want us to think that way. I

stopped think thinking that way a long

time ago. The journey you've both been

on is is really really remarkable for so

many reasons, but it's also remarkable

for the pivots along the way. And um I

was reading about a bit of an identity

crisis that you had when you were 27 28

years old, Michelle, when you were you

were a lawyer. I was a lawyer. Oh yeah.

Sidley and Austin. Yes. Beautiful high

paid corporate attorney. U that allowed

me to buy a nice Saab drive attorney.

Driving attorney. Uh first job, first

real job I had had right out of uh uh

Harvard. Um because that's what you did,

you know, after you went go to law

school, top school, you recruited by the

top firms in the country and they offer

you exorbitant salaries. So at that age

as I started as a firstear associate I

was making more than my parents made

combined which seemed like something you

didn't turn down you know if you have

the opportunity to do that it's like

well yeah sure I'm going to work for a

fir firm but that's what I was really

doing all my life I was box checking I

was just because I was a good student

and I could do certain things that's

what I did you know I sort of understood

that there was a formula be a good

student show up do the work. Check. Got

that. Get good grades. Go to a

competitive high school. Went to a

magnet high school. Was this class

treasurer? Top of the class. Check. Got

it. I because I can do this. D. I'm just

marching through life. Check. Check.

Check. Apply to top college. Um, got

into Princeton, right? I'm am in.

Graduated the top of the class. Go to

law school. Why? I don't know. There

wasn't really a thought to why I went to

law school. It was just I don't know

what I'm going to do after graduate

school. Not going to be a doctor because

I don't like science or math. I like to

talk. I like to argue. And so why not go

to law school? So I applied to Harvard,

get in. You go to Harvard. You know that

that was just that was my thought

process. There wasn't a there wasn't

purpose. There wasn't what do I care

about? I didn't know what being a

corporate lawyer meant. I was just

checking boxes.

until I became a lawyer and and and a

lot of stuff happened in that year

besides me just joining uh Sidi and

Austin in that period of time. We lost

our father. Um he died very suddenly. Um

uh um one of my best friends from from

college uh Suzanne um died of lymphoma

and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in

December and she died in May. Really the

first time in my life where people that

weren't expected to die died. You know,

we had lost grandparents and

great-grandparents and and I I was

really having kind of an existential

crisis sitting on the 47th floor of my

in my beautiful office with a secretary

and a Saab in the garage thinking, why

me? Why am I here? Rather than Suzanne

because she was that friend was also the

dreamer, the person who wasn't

boxchecking. She went to Princeton, but

she traveled the world. She didn't go to

business school right away. And I always

thought, you got to get your life

together. You got to be on a path. And I

thought, thank God she didn't do that

because she didn't know she was going to

die. But instead of sitting in some

office building, she was living life and

trying on new things. And I realized I

hadn't done that for myself. Uh I all I

was doing was following a game plan. I

wasn't trying to figure out my purpose.

And at the same time, I met Barack

Obama. He showed up in my life as the

opposite of a box checker, but somebody

I describe in in my book as an ultimate

swerver. He did nothing by the book, but

he was brilliant and interesting. You

know, he didn't go to law school right

away. He worked as a community

organizer. He lived in different parts

of the world. He was really trying to

unpack life in a way that people in my

generation weren't trying to do. You

were just, you know, I was I was with

the black bgeoa, right? And people were

buying their homes and getting their

cars together and trying to make partner

at a firm. There was a very finite path.

And I hadn't explored anything else but

that. And I thought I I have to do

something more before I settle on this.

And I think Barack helped give me the

courage. you know, he was the person in

my ear that

said, "Why would you want to just stop

here and settle on this career when

there's so much out there that you

haven't tried, right? You can do this."

And I was like, "But I'm I I'm I'm

loaded down with

debt." And right around that time, we we

knew we were going to be together. We

knew we were going to be engaged. And he

was like, "We'll get we'll figure that

out." is like don't don't settle on

becoming a partner at a law firm because

of money. You know, it's like you need

to see the world in a different way and

we'll figure this out together. And so I

started swerving. Um I started trying

other things in life and never looked

back. Craig, when was the first time you

heard that your little sister had met a

guy called Mr. Obama? Well, she called

it called me up and said, "Hey, I met a

guy. I want to bring him by." And my

mom, my dad, and I were sitting on our

front porch and she pulls up in her nice

900 that you've heard a lot about. And

he gets out of the car and that was the

first time we met him. And what did you

think of him? Honestly,

honestly, I was like, you know, he may

last two months

because that's because of her because of

she'd be he'd do something and be like,

"Ah, that's a deal breaker." And he'd be

on on his way. And my mom I remember my

mom saying, "Well, at least he's tall."

We we were just meeting him like we

would meet somebody she'd she'd bring

by. But I never brought she didn't bring

a lot of guys by. So that's why we

thought it wouldn't last that long cuz

she didn't bring too many guys by. Yeah.

But why would you think it wouldn't

last? The people that didn't last you

didn't meet. But we heard about them.

Yeah. But they you never met them. Yeah.

Well,

I have known my sister. That's one of

those just sort of myths. Michelle's so

hard on men, you know. So, it's like

Yeah. I you know, say she was hard. I

brought him I brought him home and I

think there were there was one other

boyfriend that you met even though I had

plenty of boyfriends. I just you know I

met more than than two. Well, that's

because we went to school together.

Yeah. Right. Right. Those guys, but they

didn't come. But they didn't come home.

Well, okay. Well, I met them. Yeah, I

met them. But they didn't meet mom and

dad. No, they didn't meet mom and dad,

but that's cuz we weren't in Chicago.

Anyway, all that matters is really how

it turned out, right? So, this is the

sibling. It's like, you know, you

rejected him at first, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Because he uh Barack was I I was

assigned to be his advisor. And that

didn't mean I was his boss, but every I

was a first year associate. So they

tried to pair first years sort of wi-i

with new summer associates just to help

get them acclimated and to kind of give

them advice to sort of mentor them for

the summer. So I was his mentor mentor,

right? So he comes in, he's late. So I'm

thinking, okay, this guy's trifling

because we didn't in the Robinson

family, we didn't do late, but he was

raining and he didn't have an umbrella

and so he was a little wet. Um, so I was

a little annoyed, but he he stood up and

he was tall and he was more handsome

than his picture. So I sort of thought,

"Oh, okay." And not what I expected. So

um I took him uh around the office, got

him settled into his office, took him

out to lunch for the uh that first day

and we talked for like hours and I knew

that we were going to be friends. He was

smart, he was funny, had a good sense of

humor, didn't take himself too

seriously. So, we we clicked right off

the bat. And over the course of the

summer, we actually became really good

friends. I was even trying to introduce

him to some of my friends, my

girlfriends, saying, "There's this

really cute guy who's my adviser."

because in my mind there wasn't any way

that the the the few black uh asso

associates there who both went to

Harvard were going to date in my mind I

was like that's going to be tacky that's

expected right and I was just sort of

into doing what wasn't not doing the

expected right so my mind went somewhere

else I was like h meet all these

wonderful beautiful women that I know

you know um and after a couple of

outings. He said, "Well, why don't we go

out?" And I was like, "No way are we

going to go out. That's just not going

to happen. We're friends." And he was

sort of like, "Huh? Well, why?" And he

made the case. I said, "Well, you know,

I don't think it looks right." And he

said, "Who cares about how it looks?"

And so he made his Barack Obama case

over a couple of weeks. And finally, I

was like, "Okay, we'll go out on one

date." And so he planned a a after that

it was over. It was a full day date

where he pulled out all the stops. He uh

we I'm sure I picked him up because I

had the nice car and we went to the art

institute where he showed me his suave,

you know, view of art and we had lunch

at the museum and then we walked from

the art institute down Michigan Avenue

north. So we walked hand in hand, talked

slowly and you know then we went and had

dinner on top of Lake Point Tower which

was a beautiful view of the city and

then we I think ended the evening

watching going to Spike Le's do the

right thing. So I mean he had planned

you know culture you know art you know

lovely stroll and slowly I was like okay

maybe I I you know I spoke too soon you

know maybe there is something more here

but yes that's a long way of saying I

did say no for a a a good month or two

and but by the end of the summer we were

I think it was that summer by the end of

this summer I was introducing him to my

my family. You both have that throughine

through your story of ticking the boxes.

Mhm. And then eventually it's kind of

what we were talking about yesterday on

your show where if you have sometimes

your preconception has to fail you.

Yeah, that's right. You have to feel it

for you to understand that maybe a pivot

is needed in your life. And I was the

same when I was talking about my early

journey. Um Valerie, this very

interesting character in your life. This

is the letter I found it that Valerie

wrote into me. And she's talking about

the pivot you made from being a lawyer

to leaving that law firm and and going

in pursuit of something else. What was

the something else you were pursuing

before I read what Valerie said to me? I

had no idea. Um because I didn't know

anything. U but I started with what I I

had to spend some time thinking,

journaling about what did I care about.

What was the journal question? What

brought me joy? You know, of all the

things that I was doing in my life, what

was the thing when I had it on my

calendar that I would jump out of bed

for that would change my the way I felt

about the day? And it always had to do

it went back to mentoring because while

I was doing all this stuff in law in in

my education, I was always finding ways

to help younger kids understand how to

get here. So it was the mentoring piece

that Craig mentioned, you know, we never

talked about that when we think about

our our parents. Um that brought me

absolute joy, you know. So I I started

really trying to listen to that

self-interested part of me, you know,

it's like what made me happy? I never

asked myself that. I al I always did

what I thought I was supposed to do. and

making money was one of the things that

you were supposed to do if you were

anyone who had an opportunity to get an

Ivy League education. That was really

all they talked about. That's all they

showed you. You know, there wasn't a

course or major in helping people. Um,

you know, there wasn't a course on

working with young kids. You know,

there's no major for that, especially in

the Ivy Leagues. So, I know I knew

nothing about the nonprofit world. I

knew nothing about NOS's. Well, Valerie

said, she said the opposite. I'm joking.

I'm joking. I'm

joking. The day I met Michelle Obama

changed my life forever. I'll never

forget the moment she strolled into my

office for an interview, dressed in all

black, hair elegantly pulled back. I was

struck by the confidence that she

carried herself with. She looked me

right in the eye when she shook my hand.

She was so poised and self assured that

it was hard to believe that she was only

27 years old. Michelle told me about her

life, how she grew up in the Southside,

how much love and support her parents

poured into her and her brother Craig. I

asked her why she was considering public

service rather than a much more

lucrative path as a partner in a law

firm. And she said that she had recently

lost her dad and her best friend within

a year. And their deaths were a painful

reminder of the finitness of life and

the importance of making it purposeful.

and how she knew that her abilities

could lead her to make a difference in

the lives of others to serve and to give

back to the city that she had grown up.

I was so in awe of her clarity of

purpose, determination, and

vulnerability that I offered her a job

on the spot.

That was close, right? It was the same.

Like, what did Valerie say?

And at that time in your life, you know,

those early 30s, what's what's going on

with um Mr. Obama? Oh, by then he was uh

he had written his book because he was

the president of the Harvard Law Review.

The president of the Harvard Law Review

is the top student at the top law school

in the world. So, and he was the first

black student to be elected um president

of the Harvard Law Review. Um and that

garnered a lot of attention for him. We

were dating at the time and so he got a

book contract to write a story, Dreams

from My Father. Um, which I thought was

who writes a book at your age, right?

You know, but he was like, "Yeah, I

might as well tell my story." And, you

know, and it was money, right? He got in

advance and we were engaged, so he was

working on that project, but he was

still trying to figure out what he was

going to do. And when you're the

president of the Harvard Law Review,

basically the world of law is open to

you. The normal path is that you clerk

for an appellet judge um for a year or

two and then you go on to to clerk for

the Supreme Court. Then you know you go

on to do appellet work. You you know you

you have offers from every law firm. You

are in demand or you can do policy or

whatever. That was the normal path. I

was like so are you going to clerk? He

was like why would I clerk? So he didn't

work at any of the big firms. He went to

a very small firm that was doing public

interest work. So he wasn't making a lot

of money. He was doing what I was doing.

He was going the opposite direction of

all the things that was were supposed to

make us money. But he was like, I money

isn't why I'm doing this. I'm trying to

figure out how I can best use my skills

to impact the most people. So he was

doing 50 million jobs and we were

cobbling together our payments for our

student loans at the time which were

more than our mortgage. We had bought a

condominium. We were on our way to

building our lives together. But we were

in deep debt. So while we were both

pursuing our deep love of being in the

community, we our incomes were going in

the opposite direction of where they

were supposed to go. But we were in this

together. you know, politics hadn't

really come into the fold yet. It wasn't

a part of the conversation, but we were

both kind of on these parallel paths

kind of figuring out how do we take all

these skills and all this energy and

help people. I was working in the city.

Um, he was working everywhere else and

writing a book. Um, and we were just

kind of, you know, we we were sort of

plotting ahead.

Business takes me all over the world and

I travel about 50 weeks a year. And up

until recently, one of the challenges I

continued to face was staying connected

as soon as I landed somewhere new. The

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I guess I'm seeking advice from both of

you on uh on love and romance and

relationships because in your you know

I'm in my early 30s now and when I

looked at both of your stories of love

in your your 30s,

it's not a straight line. Oh no. No,

it's not a straight line to say the

least. Um, Michelle, you talk about

going to marriage counseling with with

Brock. What does someone like me at 32

years old who is in a relationship, who

is aggressively pursuing a career,

because I feel like I've got to build

and build and build and set my family up

for the future. What advice would you

both give me about navigating love

through that part of your career where

it's go go go? M for somebody with your

personality in particular. Um my advice

would be that

um you know I could see you thinking,

you know, if we're if if if I've got my

stuff together and I've got my path

going over here and you've got your path

going over on over there, you know, as

long as we're both trudging along, you

know, and pushing, we're going to be

good. And generally that that can work

because you can be two independent

beings out there with, you know,

basically slaying your own dragons,

right? Making the choices about which

dragons you slay and how, you know, how

how much armor you want to use. You

know, you're you're independent people

and that feels good right now until your

first and most important joint project

happened, which you told me you want.

you have kids, right? That's oftent

times when the rub happens because when

you when you bring life into the world,

you

know, that's the that's the project

where you can't do that independently.

You can't you can't be on one path and

your partner on another because raising

those kids and making them as whole as

as you'd want them to be has so little

to do with the dragon you're slaying now

than it does with how you partner and

engage and and and make choices together

on this these little creatures that

you're going to love more than anything

in the world. And you're not gonna want

to get that project wrong, but you've

got to work with your partner. You got

to communicate. And that's when it gets

really hard. Is that when it got hard

for you? Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know,

when you're independent operators in the

world, it, you know, he's off, he's

traveling, I'm traveling. You know,

maybe I don't see him during the week

and then on Saturday, whoa, it's great.

I love you. I missed you. This was so

cool. Tell me about your life. and oh

this is and it's sexy and it's all of

this right and it feel and you're you're

moving and you know and you also are

okay having a break it's like let me

miss you for a little bit so I don't

care that you're traveling or that

you're everywhere but the minute there's

a little baby that is waking someone up

and if there's one person that's

carrying the burden of that you know if

one person's dream stops because they're

taking on the lion share of of things

and you're still going to the gym and

you're still slaying your dragons at the

same rate and you haven't looked over at

your partner who maybe is now stuck at

home because she's breastfeeding or she

made a set of choices to make this

little creature work and you guys

haven't had a conversation about that

and what that balance looks like because

you're just slaying your dragon at the

same rate. Oh, there's going to be

problems. You know, there's going to be

resentment. There's going to be fatigue.

There's going to be measuring and

counting and all the things. So I think

it's just important to communicate now

to start doing the work of make making

sure that you're def you guys are

defining your one life together that

you're deciding together now what

dragons are going to be slaying

and who gets to do what when you know um

and what does that feel like you know

are you going to be working all the time

are you going to be traveling all the

time on the road is she coming with you.

How does she feel about that? Did you

have that conversation? No. No, we

didn't have that conversation. No, cuz I

didn't know that that was a thing that

you had to worry about because when

you're in the midst of it, it when

you're in the midst of pursuing your own

independent journeys, it's beautiful,

right? It is. It's like I'm independent,

he's independent, we we get along, and

then all of a sudden someone's legs are

cut up from under them, you know? You

know, someone is making a different set

of sacrifices that wasn't negoti that

weren't negotiated because of children.

Because of children and because of life.

You had some pregnancy struggles. Yes.

And I I've spoken to many women on this

show who have been through similar

pregnancy struggles. And it's something

that I've it's actually a big

conversation in my life at the moment,

but also just some of my friends in my

life around trying to get pregnant um

and the IVF journey which you went on.

What do women who are struggling need to

understand and how did you feel when you

were

contemplating the IVF journey and when

you started to have struggles uh

conceiving without IVF? Well, it's the

thing, you know, because we don't talk

about our bodies and women's health and

there's just not a lot of conversation

about marriage or pregnancy or any of

this. Our parents don't talk about it.

Their parents before them don't talk

about it. Right? So, you imagine your

life and as you're checking boxes, I'm

waiting. I've delayed having kids. I

found the love of my life and now I'm

going to get pregnant. And no one tells

you that there is really a biological

clock. Like that's not false. You know,

we have partner in podcast Dr. Sharon

Malone who wrote a book grown woman talk

where she's talking she's sort of

ripping the the the the curtain off of

women's health questions. And in a

conversation with her, she reminded us

that women, we are born with a finite

set of eggs and we don't get anymore.

And every month we're losing them. And

so there is a period of time usually,

and it's different for everyone, usually

in your 30s where you go from f fertile

to not. And it's like falling off of a

cliff. And I'm like, why didn't anybody

tell me this? I know. Why? Why? Why

wasn't people why weren't people talking

about this? So, by the time I we started

really trying, which which worked

perfectly for our careers and maturing

and having everything set, right?

Because that's what we're we're trying

to get everything set. Unlike our

parents who, you know, had us, we lived

in a little bitty apartment, you know,

one income. Our generation were worrying

about I want everything set. I I

guarantee you, you have things way more

set than any any of our parents had

before they started having kids. But

we're waiting for everything to be

perfect. No friction. We don't want any

friction, right? And while we're we're

waiting for our lives to be perfect,

that biological clock is ticking. So,

you start trying and you it's not

working. That's when you go to the

doctor and they tell you,

"Oh, you're you're running out of eggs.

This is normal. I mean, you're going to

have trouble getting pregnant and so try

a little bit and then now it's time for

IVF. Um, if you can afford it, which it

wasn't covered by insurance at the time.

So, you know, it's just a shock to the

system and as some as people who like

learning and like knowledge, you really

sort of feel jipped. Yeah. You know,

that why why is this such a secret? Um,

which is why I talk about it openly and

I talk about miscarriages because the

other thing I learned is like most

pregnancies, a good percentage of them

end in miscarriage. That people have

been having miscarriages for years but

not talking about it. So when it happens

to you, a box checker, somebody that

thought life was going to be so and you

did all the right things, to have things

not work out and to know that it was

going to be that way and nobody told you

so that you could be prepared for it, it

just it was a blow. And then as a woman,

you're walking around owning the blow as

if it's your fault, you know. Um, and so

you're carrying around that burden. And

that can become the first pressure point

in a marriage because emotionally you've

got a woman that is carrying all of

this. Feeling like a failure, feeling

not having anyone to talk about, having

her hormones go up and down literally,

right? Probably dealing with depression

and maybe some postpartum. Still

working, still slaying dragons, still on

the path, but she's carrying it all on

her own. And then if you do IVF, the

bulk of the work, the shots, the the we

are the we are the the the petri dish in

the IVF process. You show up, you come

in a cup, and ooh, yay, good for you,

right? And you're a little mad about

that, too, because women have to get

shots every week,

and you have to go back and forth in

between having your job, your

high-powered job, and keeping it all

together. You're at the doctor's office

every month trying to count your eggs

and hoping that you're producing eggs

and then you have to go through the

procedure and then you have to be

pregnant for nine

months as your partner is going to the

gym and keeping his figure and you know

all of that you know so it's a long way

of saying there are just many natural

reasons why marriage

infertility trying to have

kids makes things difficult. It's like I

I try to tell couples, of course it's

hard. Just listen to what I said, right?

Like it's pro if you're having some

issues in your marriage. It's not you,

it's the process of marriage. It's just

all hard because guess what happens when

it all works out right? You know what?

You end up

with babies.

little people with their own sense of

everything. They mess you up. You love

them dearly, but they're a hassle

and they're demanding and they have

their own whims. And now they're in your

world in in your partnership. They are

you you they they are factored into

everything. So even when everything

works out and you have the 3.2 two kids

and you got everything right, it's still

going to be hard because now you're

you're developing a life, right? So, I

talk about these things because I think

that people give up too quickly on on

marriage, right? because there is so

much friction built in to the equation.

And if you're not getting help, talking

about it, going to therapy, just

understanding how things are changing

and how do you continuously renegotiate

your relationship with your partner. I I

just see people quitting because they

look at me and Barack and go # couple

goals, you know, and I'm like, it's

hard. It's hard for us, too. But I

wouldn't trade it. You know, he is, as

the young people say, he is my person.

Was there ever a moment where you

thought, you know, there are the moments

where I'm

like,

right, but it was it real? No. No. No.

There's there was never really a full

moment. There were moments when I was

resentful. There were moments when I was

mad. There were moments when I didn't

feel like I got enough attention.

But it's like, don't you feel that in

your relationship right now? Yeah. You

know, so it's just me understanding.

Yeah, I was mad, but I forgot even why I

was mad. Right. That's so it's like, was

I really that mad? Oh, did I say that?

I'm sorry. I didn't really mean that.

So, no, in the end, you know, mm- no,

we're, you know, and the beauty of my

husband and my our partnership is that

neither one of us was ever really ever

going to quit at it cuz that's not who

we are. And I know that about him. He

knows that about me, you know. Um, so

no, both of your lives change because of

a decision that former President Barack

Obama decides to make, which is to run

for public office. And that is has a

profound impact on both of your lives

because it's the most powerful job in

the world. It is you become the most

famous family in the

world. When he said that he was going to

do that, did you believe that he was

capable of it? Uh yeah, that was the the

problem is

like, you know, I I I knew that in my

heart I knew that he would make a

phenomenal president. Um and as I've

written in in in the light, um uh the

the truth was is that my initial

reaction was like, "Oh no, oh my god,

don't do this." It had everything to do

with having the foresight of knowing

what this would do to our lives. I mean,

I was projecting that if you win, which

I thought he could and should. He would

be somebody that I would want as my

president. It was all about this is

going to, you know, our kids are little.

We're going to have to move. How do you

raise kids in the White House? Um, it's

dangerous. Is the first black potential

president. We knew there would be death

threats. there were just all the how

would we afford it because it's it's

expensive to live in the White House as

many people don't know I mean much is

not covered um you're paying for every

food every bit of food that you eat you

you know you're not paying for housing

and the staff in it but everything even

travel if you're not traveling with the

president if your kids are coming on a

bright star which is the first lady's

plane we had to play pay for their

travel to be on the plane it is an

expensive

proposition and you're running for two

years and not earning an income. Um, so

all of that was in my mind. Um, how

would we manage this? So my fears were

uh what came from the fact that I

thought he could win, you know, cuz if I

maybe way in the back of my mind I was

hoping that maybe he wouldn't, you know,

that this would be the last thing he

would do.

Um, but I knew he had it in him uh to

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that is ran by 100 of the world's top

CEOs. All the time people say to me,

they say, "Can you mentor me? Can you

get this person to mentor me? How do I

find a mentor? So, here is what we're

going to do. You're going to send me a

question. And the most popular question

you send me, I'm going to text it to 100

CEOs, some of which are the top CEOs in

the world running a hundred billion

dollar companies. And then I'm going to

reply to you via email with how they

answered that question. You might say,

"How do you hold on to a relationship

when you're building a startup? What is

the most important thing if I've got an

idea and don't know where to start?" We

email it to the CEOs. They email back.

We take the five, six top best answers.

We email it to you. I was nervous

because I thought the marketing might

not match the reality. But then I I saw

what the founders were replying with and

their willingness to reply and I thought

actually this is really good and all

you've got to do is sign up completely

free. Did you ask for any commitments or

promises if he were to win?

I you know it it wasn't very thoughtful.

Um, I told him that he definitely had to

quit smoking because he was still toying

with smoking. He was in it and not in

it. Um, and we had to have enough of a

nest egg so that, you know, we could

that we wouldn't be just financially

broke at the end of it. And, you know, I

thought that that that was going to cut

it, right? because we weren't in really

we we we were just starting to make uh

decision moves where we were covering

the income that we lost making our

purposeful moves. So I kind of thought

that was going to be the deal breaker.

But then he was chosen to give the

speech at the Democratic National

Convention and he just blew up. And as a

result of that, and maybe I'm getting it

out of order, Dreams for My Father went

back on the bestsellers list. He brought

wrote Audacity of Hope, you know, so

there was all this income that was being

generated from his book sales. And he

kind of looked at me like, I think we're

okay. And I'm like,

darn. Um, so I I didn't know enough to

know what to ask for. I mean, we were

flying blind. I didn't know what that

journey was going to be and what I would

need to negotiate for myself. And that

was a bit problematic. It was

problematic not to know what I needed.

What should you have said? Oh.

Um, I should

have said that I

needed his

team to really truly value that he had a

family, you know, that I I shouldn't

have just said, well, this is what it

takes to get this done. I mean, it was

almost like the consultants that sit

around. It was almost like this is the

way it has to be. And remember the the

legacy of the presidential office

doesn't recognize families. It it is not

designed, you know, you get in there and

it all revolves around the

commanderin-chief who has always been a

man. And the whole system of it doesn't

really take into account that there's a

wife and kids and their needs and their

the demands on them. Um, so I wound up

having to fight for a lot of stuff on my

own. So if I had known these things and

maybe maybe Laura Bush knew more than I

did because the Bushes had been in the

White House, maybe, you know, you know,

there I I think about maybe there's some

world where people knew more about this

thing than we did to understand the

impacts. But there are also generational

differences. I was a very different

first lady. uh not terribly different

from Hillary Clinton, but it was a

different time. Uh we had small kids in

the White House and that didn't happen

often. There were just uh accommodations

and and and ways that the the West Wing

did not think about

or or work to fully protect all of us in

the process as a unit. And so if I had

known what I know knew now, I I would

have asked for different things, but I

ultimately I had to push to to get the

things that we needed to be able to

operate as a family. Even when it came

down to how the Secret Service protected

little kids, you know, um the girls had

to have a detail, right? So they started

school in second grade and fifth grade

in armed cars with primarily men with

guns going into a new school. Um

strangers that they did not know and the

details weren't they weren't practiced

on going to Sidwell's second grade uh

schoolyard. So we had to basically work

on how do you how do you do this for

little kids, you know. So a lot of times

details just flood through. They they

they continuously move through. It was

important for me that we find two detail

leaders that stayed with the girls for

most of their time until they became

teenagers because it was sort of like

you know these people, right? At least

they get to know. they couldn't just

have strange men coming throughout. Um,

and we had to kind of fight for that.

Um, so those that's just one example of

the what living under those things and

trying to raise small children, you

know, the kind of things that the guys

in the West Wing weren't thinking about

as they were fixing the financial crisis

and dealing with Syria and on and on and

on. I was trying to make sure that our

kids came out of that process not crazy

um and whole. Being the first black

first lady in the White

House, the public scrutiny that that

comes with is a unique type of scrutiny.

Mhm. Being the first lady anyway comes

with tremendous scrutiny. Absolutely.

Since stepping reluctantly into public

life, I've been held up as the most

powerful woman in the world and taken

down as an angry black woman. I've

wanted to ask my detractors which part

of that phrase matters to them the most.

Is it angry or black or woman? I've

smiled for photos with people who call

my husband horrible names on national

television, but still want a framed

keepsake for their mantle. I've heard

about the swampy parts of the internet

that question everything about me, right

down to whether I'm a woman or man. A

sitting US congressman has made fun of

my butt. I've been hurt. I've been

furious.

But mostly I've tried to laugh this

stuff off.

Craig, if that was my little

sister, public scrutiny, elevated to the

the highest office in the land,

I'll ask you the question. How how would

how did you feel? So I that

that's let me back up. Because I had

been a basketball coach at a big

conference, I always had to tell them,

"Don't worry about what people say in

the newspaper. I'm doing exactly what I

love to do." Mhm. And that doesn't

bother me at all. Okay. But then once

they got in the White

House, I had to tell myself that. Yeah.

because I knew that they were doing the

best that they could do for the most

people no matter what anybody said.

But because it's my little sister and

brother-in-law and my mom was in the

White House and my nieces, I would I

there were times where I would find

myself becoming enraged and I'd have to

coach myself

to I know they're doing the best they're

doing they they can do for the most

people and I would not want anybody else

sitting in that seat but my sister and

brother-in-law. And that's how I got

through eight years of that. Because

it's relentless. It is relentless. It's

relentless. It is global. It is unfair.

And it's mean. It's just mean. And you

know the I' I've leaned back on the

lessons I learned from my parents a long

time ago. I wasn't worried about what

anybody said who wasn't at this

table. And um and and I I

coached I I counseledled my family, my

immediate family, the same thing cuz our

kids, we our older kids were old enough

to read the papers and read the read the

news and and things online,

but Meech always talks about

this. In order to get through that, she

always says she needed the village of

her friends and family. And I just

wanted to be a supportive piece of that.

And we tried to get out there as much as

we could and make it as normal as you

can, you know, having Thanksgiving in

the White House. You know, that that's

an oxymoron almost having a normal

Thanksgiving in the White House. But we

tried to make it as normal as we could.

And yourself, how how does one deal with

such scrutiny? The scrutiny occurs for

eight years as the you know the public

are at war with different opinions and

ideas and often the president is seen as

the the villain or the hero in that

context and the family is obviously

impacted by that. But then even beyond

the White House it's it's relentless.

What is the is there a framework? Is

there an underlying belief? Is there a

set of values? You know it go it goes

back to what we learned earlier. I think

I approach everything with empathy. Um,

and Barack does too, and he he helps

keep me in check. Um, because he is so

smart and he believes in ideas and he

understands context in

history. You know, we we are always

putting these times, these moments into

a greater context. And we're trying to

understand where people's rage,

ignorance, hatred, whatever it is, where

it comes from. And it usually doesn't

have anything to do with us, you know.

It has to do

with the state of the world, you know,

and the world in this country is unfair

for way more people than it is fair to.

And it impacts people of all races. And

folks are angry and they're scared. Um,

and they don't have enough opportunity.

And when people are put in that

position, they lash out. They're mean.

That's when they're they're you know we

we we otherize people because it gives

us a sense of stability. We pick on

someone has to be a little more

oppressed than us. Um but that doesn't

make what they say or feel true. You

know that's you know just because you

say it or think it about me and the way

that I had to overcome the racist low

expectations of us in our childhood.

It's the same thing. It's like, you're

not mad at me. You don't understand a

lot about the world. And you've been

told a lot of things about who people of

my skin color are. You've been taught to

fear me because of the history of our

country, because of what you're going

through. And when you put yourself in

other people's shoes, you I I do get why

people are afraid. I do understand it.

And also Barack helps me remember which

I experienced myself, you know, he says

this is still the country that elected

Barack Obama twice, you know, and people

in this country are proud of that.

There's a very small percentage of

people who would never ever in their

lifetime uh want a black man to tell

them how to get down the street to the

grocery store, right? Um they can't hear

it. But this this country is bigger than

that, right? Um and we saw it. We

experienced it as much hatred or you

know conflict or ridicule. We we had so

much love, so much goodwill, you know,

so many people who tell us even today we

miss you guys, you know, and it doesn't

look like any you'd be surprised at what

corners of the world and our daughters

felt it and feel it, right? That is

true, too. We are in a really tough time

right now and we are being led sadly by

people who are are are not being in my

opinion their best selves um for

whatever reasons they have, whatever is

moving them to to push this country in

this direction. Whatever hurts they

have. Billionaires have their hurts too.

you know, business leaders, people in

power who want power and haven't

understand understood their why, you

know, can lead us down some dark

tunnels, right? But it's that empathy

for me um that that ability to kind of

give it some perspective that allows me

not to take all that hate in and to

really, you know, see the light in

people. you know, it's just the better

way to live. It keeps us from being

embittered. Uh, and it keeps us hopeful

and it keeps us working for for people,

you know. Um, so it's it's kind of a

necessity to get through it.

Marian, your wonderful mother, she was a

prominent figure throughout that time in

the White House. Oh, yeah.

What did she give you that helped you

through that journey of being thrust

into the very very very highest mountain

in public service? What role did she

play? What force was she at that time

for you both?

For me, she continued to be

that soft place to land, you know, the

place where she always saw me. Always

always saw who I was.

Um, and she was that soft place for our

girls. She was common sense right in the

middle of the White House, you know, in

that big house. People, you know, just

with her sheer presence and her wisdom,

you know, that old-fashioned wisdom, she

was the center of that house. Everyone

came to her door and sat in her room and

sucked up her wisdom. The butlers, the,

you know, the florists, the

housekeepers, the chefs, you know, they

they were all motherred in some way by

her. Um, and so she was that for me for

sure. I can still see her in your face

as you reflect. She's there. She is

there. I see it in his face more. You

know how you you don't see yourself in

your like I don't think I look like him

at all, right? But he looks just like my

mother, right? How did that loss impact

the family? It's 2024, so it's fairly

recent. Yeah. Yeah. It's still it's

still painful. Um but, you know, I'll go

back to what I I said at the very

beginning when you talked about the

values we had. The underlying value was

unconditional love.

And Misha and I knew that our mom loved

us. And we and and even more

importantly, she knew we loved her. She

knew her grandkids loved her. So while

her dying was traumatic and

disappointing and

sad, I always feel like she knew where

we stood and she was it was it was when

when she was uh right before she passed

away and she we knew she was going to be

leaving us and I said uh you know Meech

and Barack are on our way and she was

like oh that's nice and she just said

that that was

Yeah. There was nothing left unsaid.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's just there was

there's just a piece. Yeah. Yeah. I I I

just miss her. Mhm. Right. But I feel

like she knows how we feel about her and

that's that's always comforting. And

speaking of comfort, that's how I felt

when she was in the White

House for

them cuz I didn't have to worry about

them when she was

there. Have you processed the the grief?

Have you been able to?

I'm sure I have more than he does cuz he

doesn't process stuff. He just keeps

working through it. But yeah. Yeah. I I

think I've I pro I for me

um

making choices for me. I feel like now I

have permission to do what I want to do.

I think part of our podcast is part of

that legacy. Um because at least for me

as a woman, I think at

61, I'm finally owning my wisdom. um in

a way that I don't, you know, I think it

takes women until we're about 60 to be

like, I I think I know a thing or two,

but that wisdom comes from her. And

she's she was she's our our last line of

elder wisdom. And so now we're up, we're

next up, believe it or not, me and Craig

and our family, we're the we're the

ones. Um, so IMO, um, in my opinion, our

podcast is sort of that offering back.

It's like, all right, let's let's keep

up the mentoring that we were taught,

you know, let's let's let's create our

table and be a place where people can

come for the little bit of advice and

conversation in the same way that you're

doing, Stephen. It's like when you when

you learn

something, the way you hone in on it is

that you keep teaching it to other

people, right? You said that, right?

Um and so this is sort of helping us

continue to you know by helping others

which is a thing we both get great joy

from that mentoring just being able to

you know have this conversation here and

maybe somebody's going to get something

from it that I missed when I was their

age that brings us joy. It's like we're

here for a reason other than making a

bunch of money and you know living a

nice life or being famous. It's like

maybe we can help somebody. Permission.

Yeah. I was watching the coverage over

your decision, your decision to sort of

take back some of your control and not

go to Trump's inauguration. Uhhuh. Is

that one of those key moments in your

life where you did take back control?

Absolutely. Absolutely. What was the

thinking behind that decision?

Um, what do I want to do in this moment?

you know, as a boxcheing a person who

has been box checking her whole life,

doing the right thing.

Um, trying to always be an example,

always going high. Um, I I think I now I

earned a little bit about how do I feel,

you know, do I want to up in my life and

and and take this trip and leave my

peace and my children for this? I don't

didn't have to. That that was my choice.

And I I was not I would have never made

that choice. I would have always done

what what I thought was the the right

thing to do for other people to set an

example. And I I I think I just told

myself, I think I've done enough of

that. And if I haven't, then I never

will. It'll never be enough. So, let me

start now. This is the perfect time to

start. Um, so yeah, obviously off the

back of that people start to swell

rumors that there's an issue with you

and Brock and there's it was coming. I

can I mean you can say it yourself, but

I don't think that needs to be

addressed.

What I will say, you know me now well

enough, Stephen, is if I were having

problems with my husband, everybody

would know about it. If you're like, and

let me tell you, and then and he would

know it and everybody would know it. I'm

not a martyr. I'm not, you know, and I

would I would be problem solving in pro

public and be like, "Let me tell you

what he did." Listen podcast now as

well. So we were wait but if they were

having a problem Yeah. I'd be doing a

podcast with him.

Your your podcast is incredible and I

highly recommend everybody goes and

checks it out. Um I'm going to link it

below on the screen. I was fortunate

enough to be invited on it yesterday and

we had a wonderful conversation in

there. IM O in my opinion it's a you

know it's a reflection of this kind of

conversation. It's human. It's a

discovery of life. You're bringing

people on there that have wisdom to

share but you're passing through that to

understand the world that we're all

living in and the struggles that we're

all contending with. So it's a wonderful

wonderful space on the internet. I

highly recommend my viewers go and check

it out on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever

you get your podcasts. It's a must

listen in my my opinion because it's so

rare that we get an insight and a window

into the the family, but also just the

human story of everything that you've

both been through in your lives as a

really successful coach, as a stock

broker, as the first lady, as a mother,

um, and then everything you're going to

do thereafter. You're helping me

navigate the world and you help other

people navigate the world because not

everybody has that foundation. Not

everybody has the parents at home.

Everybody has, especially in black

communities, not everybody has the

mentors and you're vicariously mentoring

the world through that show. So, please

do continue. It's a wonderful thing to

get to podcast and I was so happy to

hear when you joined the industry. We

have a closing tradition. Yes. And the

closing tradition on this podcast is

that the last guest leaves a question

for the next guest not knowing who

they're leaving it for. Okay. So the

question that's been left for you both

is if there is one person in your life