Please welcome Romesh Ranganathan. He's

one of the most popular stand-ups

around. I'm hosting this [ __ ] I think

that all comedians are wired slightly

differently. That something happened to

them that has made them an outsider in

some way. What is that for you? We lived

in a nice house. We had a nice car. All

the stereotypical things that you mark

success with. Then over a period of 6

months, it was complete 180. What was

the catalyst for that 180? Well,

Shut up, mate. I'm addicted to doing

stand-up and it makes me better at

everything. But I've got this inner

voice that is horrific. It will say,

"You're not a very good dad. You're not

a very good husband." I did one of about

six panel shows and I was in a really

bad place and I turned up [music] to

each one of them with the steadfast

belief that I was [ __ ] at this. What

happens when it does go horrifically

wrong on stage? It's horrible.

The silence, that never gets easier,

man. But you learn more from those gigs.

I just need to do the best I possibly

can at this gig. I'm not in control of

anything that happens after that. Don't

think about this goal down the line that

you're trying to get to. Do this thing

brilliantly. If you love what you do and

you do that, you're on a good path. This

is such a right time, but

I've got an absolute stitch-up.

[laughter]

ARE YOU JOKING?

WE'RE HAVING SUCH A nice time.

Hello everybody. Thank you for tuning in

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Let's get on with it.

[music]

I'm so fascinated by comedians because I

find it to be

an art form that is both genius and

terrifying. Mhm. Um so for someone to

want to pursue that career, I'm always

intrigued by like why. So can you give

me the context that you think from your

earliest years

might have influenced you taking that

path if we go before you're even 10.

[snorts]

Well, I did stand-up comedy when I was

eight, you know, for the first time.

Well, like

I mean

the truth is I fell into stand-up by

accident. But when I was a kid,

I we used to go to this My mom and dad

used to take us video store and they'd

go, "You can choose something each and

we'd all watch it together or whatever."

And my mom always always used to pick

like Pink She loved like Inspector

Clouseau and like Peter Sellers and all

that. So she'd choose all that stuff.

And then I discovered Eddie Murphy. I

remember like getting out uh Beverly

Hills Cop and I watched Beverly Hills

Cop and I was just like, "This guy is

like so incredible." And then I started

watching everything. Golden Child,

Trading Places, all of that. As a kid, I

was too young to be watching that stuff

and my mom and dad had no idea about age

rating, so they were fine with it. And

then I discovered Raw, which was like

his second special that came out, I

think.

And

I remember watching that.

And I watched I'd had watched stand-up

before on TV like British stand-up. I'd

watched a lot of it as a kid and loved

it.

There was something about watching a guy

and he just had a microphone

and he walks out in that leather suit

and not that I'd ever worn a leather

suit or ever will, but like he walks out

like it's a rock gig. Do you know what I

mean? Like the whole crowd like this

massive crowd, they go nuts and they

watch a show

of somebody just talking. I just found

it unbeli- like the low-finess of it.

The sort of thing of I'm going to say

things I think or my take on stuff and

that's the show. There is no more than

this. Like do you do you know what I

mean? There's no effects. It is just

literally I am going to just stream of

conscious- The illusion is a stream of

consciousness. I'm just going to like

talk

and you're going to and that's the show.

I just found it incredible. And so then

we went

my family took me to Pontins holiday

camp, me and my brother for a like a

week and they had a talent competition

and all I used to do then was read joke

books. Like everything I read was like

3,001 jokes.

Like joke books for kids. Like I just

all That was all I would read all the

time. Just Because of that Eddie Murphy?

I think so. I mean, I was just really

into comedy. I just loved it. I loved

the idea of making people laugh. I loved

the idea of doing comedy. I was just so

obsessed with it. And so then I entered

the talent competition as a stand-up. It

was horrendous, but I won.

I you know, I won. I beat this kid this

kid playing a kazoo and then there's

another kid doing a dance thing.

Smashed it. Absolutely smashed it. But

like even then I really loved sta- I

like I just loved stand-up. But the idea

that I would do that for a career

as somebody from

like an Asian background or whatever,

you know, like my parents are very much

like you're going to you know, we've

come over to this country for you to

to follow a path and be successful. The

idea of doing stand-up as a career was

not We were just wasn't ever in there.

That stereotype of um immigrant Asian

parents trying to make you a doctor or a

lawyer.

Yeah. Was that Did you witness that

first-hand from your parents as in Did

they have that conversation with you at

any point or was it just kind of there

in the background as an expectation?

They did They didn't explicitly say

you're going to be I mean

my dad was pretty laid-back to be honest

with you. My mom was a bit more

was a bit more kind of dead set on what

we were going to do, but you know, there

was there was

My mom and dad

My mom and dad left Sri Lanka

for my dad to finish his studies. You

know, it was an economic reason, but

also there was trouble going on in Sri

Lanka, you know, like my family

originally Tamil.

There was lots of trouble going on with

the Sinhalese and the Indian government

and there's like a civil war going on

and that was affecting a lot of my

family members as well.

So there's like a lot of push and pull

involved in them coming over here.

But

they never sat me down and had a talk,

but every single time I made a decision

or talked about what A levels I was

going to do or anything like that, I was

conscious of the fact that

they were really worried about what I

was going to do. They You You know, for

example, not going to university was not

an option for me. Do you know what I

mean? Really. I mean, unless I really

decided to rebel.

But they just assumed I was going to

educate myself to whatever level and

then go off and follow this path of

being a successful whatever.

Um

So yeah, that's kind of it was kind of I

felt it. Do you know what I mean? But

they they never had an explicit chat,

but I did feel it. When I was reading

through your story and going through the

notes on your autobiography, it kind of

I I I really could relate to um your

childhood in many ways because it seemed

like your childhood had very distinct um

opposing chapters Right.

one might say. And from came I came to

the country when I was a kid from

Botswana and the first chapter was

great. Right.

[laughter]

But that's the chapter I honestly can't

remember

Yeah. because I was below the age of 10.

My siblings can remember it with great

um great detail, but I can't remember

that chapter. I'm told about it. I'm

told about the the presents and the

everything kind of being normal. And

then the second chapter, which I can

remember vividly because I was slightly

older, is when kind of chaos ensued and

everything seemed to fall apart.

What was that first chapter for you

like?

I To be honest with you, it's very

similar to what you're talking about.

You know, I remember

I remember being very comfortable and I

remember my dad

you know, all the stereotypical kind of

things that you that you mark success

with. My dad wore a suit to work. Do you

know what I mean? We had a nice car.

We never really wanted for anything. We

lived in a nice house. The people that

my fa- like my family were like had a

big social circle. They were

you know, all of those like external

signifiers, that was all happening.

So like my kind of recollection

My To be honest with you, my

recollection was of being spoiled, to be

honest with you. Like I had

just loads of stuff. Do you know what I

mean? Like my mom and dad my mom and dad

bought us loads of stuff, but they we'd

go out to eat a lot.

[sighs]

You know, my dad was doing well. He was

doing really well. Do you know what I

mean? And so

Yeah, similar to you, I don't have vivid

memories of it, but I do have a general

memory of like

you know, if I asked for a thing for

Christmas,

it was pretty sure it was pretty like I

was going to get it. Do you know what I

mean? For the first eight years or so.

So it's really super comfortable. Do you

know what I mean? And then it literally

was I would say over the period of

6 months everything got completely

turned upside down. It was like

it was just a complete 180.

What was the catalyst for that 180?

My

Sort of unbeknownst to me, my dad was

kind of

was not doing great at work. He was

starting trying to do other It was sort

of messing around. It was

What What What do I mean by messing

around? Like

He was just a bit of a loose cannon. Do

you know what I mean? I think he'd got

got to his head a little bit. He drank a

lot.

[snorts]

He was a bit of a womanizer.

Um and that was starting to get noticed

at his work and then he started having

ideas of like

going off and doing other things. He

ended up getting I think he got fired

from his job and then he started trying

to do these kind of import-export deals,

which at the time we thought, "Oh,

that's my dad's new partner." But as it

turns out, it was illegal. But like he

Basically, we we ended up getting out

The first thing I had was the

My mom said, "We're going to have to

move out of this house. This house is

being repossessed." Right? So, my mom

and dad couldn't keep up their mortgage

payments.

And then we ended up moving to this

house on this council estate that my dad

had got off a friend or was renting off

a friend.

We were there for a little bit.

And then while we're at that house, my

mom found out that

my dad had been sort of

sleeping regularly sleeping and was

starting a relationship with this other

woman.

[sighs]

And was intending on leaving us and the

like leaving us to go and start a life

with this other woman.

And so that threw my mom's kind of world

upside down.

And then basically the the the the sort

of trigger for

everything going really kind of mad was

we hadn't seen my dad for a couple of

days.

And

my mom said,

"I'm going to It was a mad I can't

remember how old I was. Maybe like 11 or

12 or something."

My mom said, "I'm going to take you to

this woman's house, and I need you to go

to the door and ask where your dad is

because I've not seen him for 2 days and

I've not heard from him."

So, she took me around to this house. We

went to the door.

And I said, "Where's my dad?"

And she said, "Your dad was arrested 2

days ago." And it turned out that they'd

been in the middle of doing some sort of

deal or something and they're

they were the target of some sort of

police investigation in Leicester. The

police stormed in or stormed in and

arrested them. And my dad was being held

and ended up going to prison for

he was sentenced to 2 years. So,

so then everything kind of went

it sort of

went to chaos. Like my dad was in

prison. We ended up

being housed in a bed and breakfast uh

by the council cuz they didn't have

enough housing. So, my mom, my brother,

and I were staying in

uh in a room in this bed and breakfast

in Harlow.

And um

my mom like had she'd not been working

but she got herself a job as a cleaner.

And then

we were going to school from there. Do

you know what I mean? Like and

Yeah, it was just like it just sort of

like everything completely flipped, man.

And so it was kind of

Yeah, it was just a complete 180. Do you

know what I mean?

The start of that 180, your dad was an

accountant, right?

Yeah.

And then he'd lost his job. Yeah.

Cheated on your mom. Yeah.

Gone into sort of financial disarray.

Ended up in prison.

Yeah. In the In the process of what, 6

months or something? 12 months?

the sort of the house got repossessed.

Uh we found out about I I think that

sort of period from start to finish

maybe 12 to 18 months, I think.

And at that point you were in At the

start of that you were in private

school, right?

Yeah. Yeah, so I'd got a scholarship.

So,

um

I'd I'd I'd done this I I was I was at

school and then

what I didn't realize is that my mom and

dad were struggling to pay My dad had

lost his job and was trying to make his

way in other ways and was struggling to

pay for the fees.

And so the first I realized about it was

like accountants from the school were

turning up to my lessons with like an

invoice going

For you?

Yeah, to pass on to my parents because

my my mom and dad were in such arrears.

And then eventually I got One day I came

home from school and dad said to me,

"You can't You're not going back

tomorrow." Like we've got to take you. I

think it's like midway through

through term. He said, "You can't go

back." Because he was just getting

freaked cuz he'd like he was in such

arrears. He was worried about what would

happen even if I turned up. But you

know, he just not that they were going

to do anything to me. But I think it got

to the point where he just had to take

me out. He He couldn't see a way of of

paying any the money anymore.

So then like 2 days later I was like

enrolled at the local school. Did you

say bye to anybody at school?

No.

No. I mean I got There was a mate of

mine that I'm still in touch with now.

Um who I kind of let know what was going

on or whatever. But um nobody else, no.

I just like one day I was there, one day

I wasn't. When I look back on my own

life, I it's taken me maybe like 30

years to realize like the underlying

shame.

And so when I was looking through your

story, I was trying to understand if

there was that same feeling of kind of

underlying shame.

Well, like to give you an idea, so I I

went to I started at the state school

and

I really enjoyed it. And like I had I

had a slightly opposite experience to

you in terms of like

when I was at when I was at the the the

private school, I was one of the only

Asian kids there and I got loads of like

I got a fair bit of racism. And then

when I moved to state school, there were

more kids of color at that school. I

still got I mean I got I got into my

fair share of scrapes with racists. But

like

that

It's a weird thing. I was really

enjoying my time at school and it was

actually a respite from being at home

because like when I went home, it was

just like everything's gone to [ __ ] My

mom's really sad. Like and obviously I I

I wanted to support her in that. But

school felt normal. I didn't tell

anybody at school what was going on at

home, right? So, I'd go to school and

that for all they know like everything's

like totally chill. But and

to to get like So, my dad

went to prison

on the 26th of March. My birthday's on

the 27th of March, right? And I went to

my mates My mates organized like a

little like get-together, watching films

and stuff. I didn't tell them any I

didn't tell them. I didn't tell them

because I just like I don't want anybody

to know about this. So, I turned up to

the like to this birthday get-together

the day after because

I didn't want to pollute my school

experience with that. Do you know what I

mean? So,

So, I just didn't tell anybody. And like

I had really embarrassing experiences

where

when we moved out of the bed and

breakfast, we were put in this flat and

there's no phone in the flat. There was

a payphone downstairs.

So, but I didn't want my friends to know

that I it was a payphone. So, I had to

like

make them promise me they were going to

call me exactly this time and then stand

[snorts] by the payphone so that nobody

from any one of the other flats were

going to answer it. And then Do you know

what I mean?

So stupid.

[laughter]

But I was

I was just so

wanting to nobody to know what was going

on. There's a cost to that, there isn't

there?

Do you know what I mean? Like that that

kind of living with the the sense of

embarrassment almost.

Yeah, I I I guess like there's there's

lots of little things that there is a

stress at trying to live a double life

like [laughter] that. You know?

You know, things that would normally be

okay, you suddenly panic over. So, for

example, there was a girl I liked

and we were like we we we're living on

this council estate. We've been put in a

house. We'd put in this house but we

couldn't afford carpet. So, it was just

we just had wooden like just the wooden

floors in there.

And they thought it was fine but just no

carpet. So, it looked it looked strange.

And then we're walking around the estate

and then this girl that I liked said,

"Oh, do you mind if I come in and use

the toilet?" I mean,

[laughter]

I nearly had a panic attack.

I said, "You can't

You I I was I was really thinking like,

"What do I do here? I can't say no, you

can't use the toilet." Like I started

thinking, "What can I say? My mom

doesn't like girls using the toilet in

my house." Like what what can I possibly

say? In the end, I said I think I said,

"WE'RE BETWEEN CARPETS."

[laughter]

YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS. YOU GET THE

CARPETS taken out. You just wait for a

couple of weeks for the floors to settle

and then you get the new carpet put in.

[laughter]

But yeah, all that kind of stuff is just

it's just so stress it's so stressful,

man.

You would you described yourself as a

lazy kid.

Yeah, I really was, yeah.

You're not now. You're not a lazy person

now. So, I still do think I'm quite

lazy. I I

[sighs]

I just was like all of my school reports

said, "Romesh is wasting his ability.

Romesh doesn't apply himself. Romesh

doesn't

um and that was true before everything.

Not to the same degree, but it was sort

of true

before everything kind of went

topsy-turvy. But it was definitely true

afterwards. You know, a lot of teachers

say to me, "You're not applying yourself

at all."

But I sort of think for a while I went

through a phase of just having given up,

to be honest with you. Cuz it's it's

sort of gone so

to my mind, my world had been turned

upside down so completely,

I couldn't really see the point in it. I

I just sort of I just wanted to have a

nice I I wanted to enjoy myself and that

didn't that meant not working. It didn't

Initially, it did not give me

You know when you're talking about when

you wrote down your list of targets, it

sort of had the opposite effect on me. I

just thought, "I don't give a [ __ ]

anymore."

I've seen my dad work really hard.

You know, I didn't know the full details

of what he'd done. You know, all of that

sort of stuff came out in the wash. But

like at the time I think, "I've watched

the man work really hard

and then he ended up in prison. He split

up with my mom." I mean, they got back

together eventually. It's like it was

terrible.

And I actually went through a phase of

thinking I know that

I went through a phase of thinking that

we were just cursed because like so many

so many things so many bad things

happened in quick succession.

I actually went through a phase as a kid

of thinking that happiness is something

that will always elude me. Like I will

never be comfortable. You know, this I'm

never

this is just what we're supposed to be.

You know, like my parents are Hindu.

They talk about you know, they talk

about God a lot in our house. And so

suddenly it's like maybe God just

doesn't like us, man. Do you know that

that I genuinely had that genuine belief

that like maybe this is just how it's

supposed to be. So, it kind of pushed me

the other way. I stopped working. I

started bunking off.

I just wasn't I just wasn't in the zone

at all. What was your opinion of

yourself

during that time?

It's a great question because to be

honest with you, what my opinion of

myself is now is something I really

struggle with. And And like I've never

thought about the origins of that, but

um

the

the truth is

I think, when I've come to reflect on it

after that, I remember thinking this at

the time

I remember thinking

I don't know what I would have ended up

like if we'd have stayed comfortable.

You know, I don't know what person I

would have been if I'd stayed

comfortable. And I would I'm telling you

now, if that hadn't have happened to us,

I wouldn't be a comedian now. I wouldn't

be the person I am now. Like there's so

many things that defined who I am.

I was defined So much of me has been

defined by that period.

Um

But what I would say is my

opinion of my opinion of myself

was and continues to be something I

really struggle with in terms of it

being absolutely like like rock bottom.

You know, like you know, like you just I

just have

uh

I have a prick living in my head that

talks to me all the time. Do you know

what I mean? And so And that is

something that to this day, as I'm

sitting with you now, I have to contend

with. Do you know what I mean? I've got

like this inner voice

that

is horrific. Do you know what I mean?

It's like a horrible horrible person

that I've got like, you know, this

horrible voice in my head that just like

regardless of whatever external

um

evidence there is or whatever whatever

else happens, I will always have this

kind of this inner belief

uh [sighs]

that I'm sort of a bit shitty. Do you

know what I mean? Like I'm not

I can't do this or I'm not good at this

or you're getting away with this or

whatever. Imposter syndrome, I guess is

a is an oversimplified way of of

describing it, but

yeah, it's something I've I've sort of

had to not had to do with. Something

I've dealt with for as long as I can

remember, really. I got really I I got

chills all over my body then and I don't

really know Do you know why it is? It's

because it really breaks my heart to

hear that that, right? And it genuinely

does like cuz

And it also, I think, people don't

understand the privilege that they have

if they don't have that in their head.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's it's

such a difficult thing because

cuz if you don't have that you don't

understand why somebody would have that.

You You get what you're talking about.

Snap out of it. Do you know what I mean?

Like look at your life

and go, "Oh, successful comedian."

Yeah. You know what I mean? 100% You

sort of go

And it's not that I'm unhappy with my

lot. It's not that I want anything to

It's nothing external. I don't need

anything external to change. I just have

that You just have that. You know, I've

just always mentally had that. And

yeah, like what you just said, I totally

relate to because sometimes I've not You

don't tell people because you just sort

of go, "They're going to go, what? What

you on about? Like what What What are

you talking about?" But people that get

it get it. Do you know what I mean? And

it's like I I do think

you know, it's something that I've kind

of got involved with

as much as I possibly can

is to sort of encourage those You know,

those kind of mental health

conversations and stuff. I think we've

become much more open about it than we

were in the past. But when I was at uni,

I I went to see a therapist that like

they had like these free therapy

sessions for students. And I went along

to one.

And I did like a whole course or

whatever. I remember telling my mom

about it. And she like freaked out.

You know, because

somebody What do you mean you're going

to a therapist? Like what Is there

something wrong with your head? You

know, like she like really like Cuz to

her mind, does that mean you're mad?

Like Do you Do you know what I mean?

Like she didn't have that same It's like

her understanding of it. Now, it's

completely, you know, she's completely

uh you know, she's her attitude towards

it is very different, but

yeah, it's just something you have to

contend with. And and

like at the moment, as I'm talking to

you now

I've got coping mechanisms and I'm sort

of on top of it, but I'm I'm always sort

of this close You know, if I get if I It

can be something really little like I

don't exercise for a bit or I don't

hydrate properly for a few days or I

don't I don't get enough sleep, I'm

back. Do you know what I mean? Like I go

dark. I just go dark in my head. You

know, like you kind of

the voice comes You know, the voice

comes back. But you know what I mean?

You sort of you start getting down on

yourself. And you have to be on top of

all of those things, like What does the

voice say?

It will say, "You're not a very good

dad. You're not a very good husband. If

I come to do this podcast it will go,

"Why are you bothering to do this?

You've got nothing interesting to say."

Do you know what I mean? Like "You're

going to try and get away with this. At

some point, somebody's going to tap you

on the shoulder and go, 'We all know.

If you leave quietly, we won't say it.'

If You know, that kind of thing. You

know, I I remember like doing a run of

like I was particularly busy. I had like

one of about six panel shows, like

different studio things over 2 weeks.

And I was in a really bad place. And I

turned up to each one of them with the

steadfast belief that I was [ __ ] at

this, right? And I've got to try and get

away with it as much as I possibly You

know, like I was just in a bad place. I

turned up. And I'd be sitting there and

like, you know to be a comedian, you've

got to be loose and like chilled out and

relaxed. And it's almost like being a

You know, I've read a lot about it about

being in a flow state, you know, being

in the pocket, whatever you want to call

it. You can't be in the pocket if you've

got a voice in your head going, "You're

crap at this." So, it's like

yeah, it just you just go through

periods of it, I suppose.

The um when you went to see that

therapist in school, why did you go?

So, there was this very specific

trigger.

So, what happened was is I had saved up,

cuz I've always been really into music,

and I'd saved up to get this like hi-fi.

Yeah.

Um like this really cool bit of stereo

equipment. And I was too scared to take

it to uni cuz I just thought somebody's

going to nick this or it's going to get

smashed up or whatever. So, I left it at

home in my bedroom at home. And my mom

and dad had a lodger.

And he was sort of

he was somebody that had come over from

Sri Lanka that they were kind of helping

out. And

he'd been sleeping I'd been sharing a

room When I came back, I shared a room

with him.

And they'd moved that piece of stereo

equipment, right? Because he needed to

put some stuff somewhere or whatever.

My reaction

to something quite nothing

was like so It was It was like I really

like was like felt like

my mom and dad were trying to move me

out or they didn't care about my stuff.

Like And then

I'd like really got pissed off about it.

And then later on that evening realized

that that was a massive overreaction.

And then recognized that I wasn't in a

good headspace. You know, like I just

felt like for me to have reacted like

that

probably was a sign I was cuz I felt

like I was going through some [ __ ] as

well. You know, like I You know, you

don't feel right in yourself. And then

when I reacted like that, I thought

I need to I need to sort of speak to

somebody properly, you know. I'm not in

a good I'm not in a good place. And so,

like I think like 2 days later, I looked

into it and then started going. You know

what's um really has, I think, changed

my life is the amount of times I've had

this exact conversation with someone who

is

maybe a comedian, maybe not, about the

voice in their head. Yeah. And until I

started doing this podcast, I had

absolutely no idea. I couldn't

comprehend the thought that there's

people that have a voice in their head

that is somewhat against them at times.

Right. Right. Right. I couldn't

comprehend it. Yeah. And so, for me,

like this isn't the first time I've

heard this. This is maybe maybe not even

the 10th time. It's really eye-opening

for me. Have you ever

And this is I mean, this is almost an

impossible task cuz you're like trying

to piece things together in hindsight,

but have you ever

developed a perspective or an opinion

where that voice

comes from or why you have it and

someone else might not?

Mm. No, I don't

I don't know. Is it You know, like

[sighs and gasps]

Why have I got it and other people

haven't? I I don't know. It's something

I've thought about. Particularly when

I'm talking to people that don't have it

or

don't understand why I've got it.

Um

And I don't know. I I I I don't know if

it's like

I mean, I'm being super super pseudo

psychologist here, but

I sort of think that You know, when I

said to you about I sort of felt like

everything was against us. Yeah. And you

sort of go through this period of like

during your formative years of a lot of

things going badly or going negatively.

You then start to see that as your

default. And then if something goes

right or something's going well, then

that is against type or that is against,

you know, you're supposed to have

[ __ ] happen to you. You're like You're

bad stuff supposed to Or you're supposed

to have bad experiences. And so then

maybe that's on I mean, I'm just

freestyling it, but maybe that kind of

gets hardwired into you so that even if

like you have positive things

you kind of

you you you kind of don't accept them.

And I also think of like sometimes I've

reflected on times when I was a kid,

like really young

and done things that I would consider be

selfish. I remember like this like have

a vivid memory of being horrible to my

brother. And the voice goes to me,

"That's you at your core." Like when

you're when you're being nice, that is

conditioning. But that is what You know,

I've had that thought where that you

fundamentally is that person, that that

nasty person. But what you've done is

like social conditioning has taught you

that, you know, you allow your brain to

go down those

those thought pathways, you know? I sat

with Gabor Maté. He's

He's maybe He's like considered to be

like the leading

um psychologist therapist on

specifically childhood trauma. And his

he was handed off during the the

Holocaust when his because his mom was

trying to save him, so she gave him to

someone else. And he talks to me about

how we interpret We are narcissists as

young children. We think everything is

about us. If parents are screaming,

that's because of me. Yeah. You know,

and and how children are these like

great like huge narcissists. So, even

though his mom was doing an act of love,

he almost internalized it as an act of

abandonment, which meant that he wasn't

good enough. So, he he talks about how

he lived with this kind of sense of not

being good enough. The other

conversation I reflect on, which kind

comes to mind as you're talking is Steve

Peters

who wrote The Chimp Paradox. And he

talks about Have you read it? It's a

great book. He talks about two periods.

He goes, "Under the age of like 10, you

can develop goblins." And he refers to a

goblin as something that we can never

really shake because of the the the

neural pathways in our brain are

are

pretty much changed for good. And and we

can often not remember it because we

don't even start to form memories until

we're like three Yeah.

or whatever. And those are your goblins.

But then he goes, "After 10, it's really

your gremlins, which are things we can

overcome."

Yeah. So it's it's interesting that we

can have these sort of goblins, but also

not remember where they came from. And

they can also be just like narcissistic

childlike interpretation of events.

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I think I do

sort of agree with that. And I think

like

one of the things I discovered is like

in in conflict and things like that, you

know, there was this uh

David Foster Wallace did this like

commencement speech

that I read. And it's about like this

thing that we're all hardwired to

believe that we are the center of the

universe, right? So like when you're

going to work and somebody cuts you up

or somebody takes ages in front of you

at the supermarket, it's like, "Why is

this happening to me?" And then as soon

as you flip the switch and go, "This

isn't happening to me. I'm like, this

person's got their own thing and this

person's got their own thing." As soon

as you do that, your ability to just

chill out is miraculous, right? And and

I I I do think that that is

part of it. Like, you know, the belief

that bad things happen to me. What am I

talking about? Do you know what I mean?

What are you talking about? Do you think

you're that important that that that

they've got time for destiny to go,

"Nah, bad shit." What are you talking

about, you absolute god complex having

[ __ ] You know, that's the truth of it.

You see what I mean? It's just some

stuff happened, man. It's not destiny.

You're not on some route. There's

nobody's got anything against you. Just

like, "What are you talking about? Who

do you think you are?" Do you know what

I mean? So

it is that. It is that you kind of like

trying to combat that. You said you

learned coping mechanisms. Yeah. What

are those coping mechanisms? Um

That sounds like one of them what you

just described there, which sounded like

perspective. Yeah, one of them is

perspective. Another one is just

is completely

is completely surrendering yourself to

the moment that you're in. So like

uh

if you complete

What I found is is like a lot of kind of

your So this inner voice or whatever or

a lot of your worries and stuff like

that are things that are not happening

to you at that time. You know, it's

like, "I'm worried this is going to

happen. I'm worried I'm [ __ ] at this and

this is going to happen." And the the

the the the

And one of the things I found is like to

just completely

be of this moment and this moment alone.

And and sort of

Yeah, just just be present, you know?

Like so if I come here,

I [snorts] could come here going

um "If this podcast doesn't go well,

then people are going to get in touch

with me on social media and then, you

know, uh

blah You know, you can start getting

yourself in a thing. You're not good

enough to do this podcast. You shouldn't

have been interviewed. Have you seen the

other guests he's got on this podcast?

It's a joke. And why why has he done

this? And blah blah blah."

Or if you just go, "I'm just going to

come here and enjoy this podcast." And

you know, and I'm just going to be here

in the in the chat with you.

You're just you're the way you

experience things completely changes. Do

you know what I mean? You you just

you just become you just have a

different experience of the same thing.

You can experience two things completely

differently. Like And the truth is, all

of these things you're catastrophizing

are fine. You know, like if I go if I'm

go if I'm crap on a panel show, I don't

get booked for that panel show again. So

what? Like who gives a [ __ ] Do you know

what I mean? Like that's fine. It's

totally cool.

And then the other thing is to just kind

of

actively

be aware of when I'm getting like that.

You know, like sometimes you can't

necessarily stop it, but I go, "I've

gone dark." Do you know what I mean? You

you sort of go, "Oh, this is happening,

but this is it's okay to feel like this.

I don't need to block those thoughts,

but they are irrational.

And I just

I just know what's happening. Do you

know what I mean? I need to get my

nutrition in order. I need to get down

the gym. I need to get a good night's

sleep. Whatever I need to do to sort

myself out, I need to do a bit of like

you know

headspace or whatever it is. Do you know

what I mean? To try and get myself back

on an even keel. Whereas before, before

I had those kind of coping mechanisms,

who knew when I was going to come out of

it, you know? I just would submit myself

to it completely and then it would be

like chance that I would come out of it,

you know?

When you reflect on your your journey

with mental health, was there has there

What period of your life was the most

difficult?

In terms of mental health?

Yeah.

Um

I would say my late my late teens into

my kind of early 20s was really

challenging cuz

I remember reacting I've got loads of

memories of reacting really badly to

to things. Um

like irrationally. Like I would have the

top reactions like

I remember like I didn't really do very

well in my A levels cuz I was just like

pissing about.

And then when the A level results came,

I just thought this is the end. I can't

carry on with my life. You know, I

really like was like, "I can't."

You know, I was I was I was I was

thinking about taking my own life like

regularly. You know, like

yeah, there's loads of times that you

know, there's loads of times during that

period

when I thought about it. I did think

about it a lot. Um

And I I'd fantasize about it. You know,

I'd like to think about how I was going

to do it. I think about how easy it

would be after that. I think about the

repercussions after I'm gone. You know,

I'd think I'd like I'd spend

time thinking about it, you know? So

um And that was kind of the toughest

time. And then as I kind of got older,

um

yeah, it sort of got

I still had the same issues, but I

started to kind of be able to

to deal with them a bit more

effectively.

And you know, like I managed to shut off

the voice. You know, let me There'd be

long times I don't have any voice at

all. You know, like it's just gone.

And then occasionally sort of go dark

again. But yeah, that was probably the

most challenging time.

You know, there's a there's a stereotype

about comedians and them you know, their

perspective of themselves not be not

being happy or whatever. There's that

like long-enduring stereotype. And I've

sat here with Jimmy Carr, etc. And he's

told me He actually said to me, he said,

"You should ask You should ask comedians

not are they depressed, but like who in

their family was depressed?"

Which I thought was an interesting one.

What's your whole observation as it

relates to you on that like stereotype

that comedians are either depressed

themselves or their family was or their

mom was or they they had someone in the

home they were trying to cheer up. I

don't I don't hm

I don't know if I think that all

comedians are depressed. I've said after

a long discussion.

[laughter]

It feels like I've supplied a lot of

evidence to the contrary. But I don't I

don't think all comedians are depressed.

But I do think that

I think that all comedians are wired

slightly differently. Certainly all the

really good ones. Do you know what I

mean? Or the ones like something's

happened. They've had something happen

to them that has changed the wiring that

has made them an outsider in some way.

And and it it might be depression, but

it might be

you know, it might be a change in

circumstances. It might be a

bereavement. It might be whatever.

It might be a class shift. It might be

their parents you know,

there's something about comedians that

just

they're just slightly different. You

know, their wiring is slightly

different. I do genuinely believe that

cuz I sort of

whenever I talk to comedians who I

really like, after a while of talking to

them, you go

[laughter]

I've spotted it.

Yeah, there you go. There it is. Do you

know what I mean? They've all got that.

They've all got a little bit of like,

you know,

Yeah, they've all got a little bit of

faulty wiring, I think. Or I don't mean

faulty. I mean wired differently.

Different. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

What is that in your words for you? What

is that different wiring

that's made you like a

like pulled magnetized by the career of

being a

stand-up comic or comedian?

A writer. I don't know. I think that

like sort of I I think the speed in

which

[sighs]

the speed in which everything changed,

you know, the the sort of my life

experiences as well as the fact that I

was sort of drawn to comedy anyway.

You know, all of my family I love my dad

was my family sort of all

pretty comedically, you know, that that

they're all my my my la- the love

language at my house is taking the piss

out of each other. Do you know what I

mean? Like, [clears throat] you know, my

mom and dad and my brother and I just

rinse each other all the time. That was

that was what I knew.

That's what my kids are like. That's

what we're like in my house, you know?

And I think that that's kind of

contributes to it. But I think that

you know, again, I'm being sort of I'm

speaking from a position of deep

ignorance. But like I think

having seen the normal trajectory for my

dad and the trajectory that they wanted

for me go so spectacularly wrong

has

allowed me to accept taking a different

path. Do you know what I mean? Like I I

think had that not happened, I probably

would have gone, "I need to get like a

regular job like and follow this

trajectory that my parents want and I

need to follow the

the the the milestones of success that

everybody kind of attributes." Mhm.

Whereas this thing allowed me to go,

"Well, do you know what? I'm just going

to do the thing I really want to do and

let's see what happens." Do you know

what I mean? And initially that was, you

know, before I was in comedy, that was

teaching. I didn't do teaching cuz

I wanted to make Well, you don't do

teaching cuz you want to make money. But

I I wasn't doing teaching because I

wanted like respect from the community.

I did it because I love the idea of

teaching children. And then I ended up

moving into comedy and I just sort of

thought I actually kind of I kind of

have attached less

weight to financial remuneration, to

like having the nice house, to all of

that.

And I just want to do this I I

I just want to be driven by

wanting to do this thing. Do you know

what I mean? Because if you chase the

financial thing, it can still go

horrifically wrong.

So, why am I doing that? Do you know

what I mean? I might as well chase it

That could still go wrong, but at least

I'm doing something I enjoy. Do you know

what I mean?

And that first You you know, I was

reading about your early sort of gigs in

like pubs and stuff like that like eight

people or whatever.

That first That first time a gig went

well, maybe it was a Was it Butlin's

your first? That was my first when I was

at Oh, yeah, yeah. How did you feel up

on stage and the minute you walked off

stage when it went really well? Well, I

can tell you a really specific gig, man,

that like it was quite a bit into So, I

was You know, you were doing all these

pub gigs, and I started to get to a

point where I was starting to do well at

these gigs, right?

And

I felt like, okay, I'm starting to get

all right at this. You know, for that

level, do you know what I mean? You

certainly couldn't have put me on at the

Apollo at that stage, but like I was

like I was starting to feel like I was

starting to do well in these gigs.

And what I hadn't done

what I'd never done is I'd never turned

a room. So, what I mean is whenever

However the gig was going, I would go on

and follow suit, right? So, if it was a

good gig, I'd probably have a good gig.

If it was a a tough gig, I'd still do

all right, but I'd have a tough gig. The

first time I absolutely buzzed my tits

off

is it was a tough gig. I was on second.

[sighs]

And like the host had struggled, the

first act had struggled, and then they

got me on, and I started and they were

quiet, but by the end of the gig it was

like I was like having a great one.

And that to turn a like that was the

first time I'd ever taken a room from

being quiet to being a great gig, and I

lost my mind. I mean like I was just

like

the adrenaline was just insane, man.

Like I came off just like And you have

to hide that, right? Because you know,

you don't want to walk off just going,

"Yeah, man!

[laughter]

Yes! Absolute smash time!" So, I had to

like swallow that down and just go,

"I've got to leave quickly so I can

scream in the car."

I felt I felt in Mate, that I remember

like as the gig was turning, I didn't

want to dip out of the Cuz as soon as

you go, "This is going well," you're out

of the moment, right? So, I had to like

I had to just like just keep doing the

gig, keep doing the gig. Like had a

great response, and I was like,

"Oh my god, that felt amazing." It was

unbelievable, man. Amazing.

And has that kind of been your

relationship with stage where that's the

real like that's the

that's the pinnacle in terms of like

feelings and emotions and like

I guess like self

I don't know.

affirmant Um

I don't know. I mean like I I definitely

enjoy the buzz of doing live stand-up

more than anything else I do. And like

nothing else really matches up to I

really do enjoy all the other stuff I

do, but nothing can really compete with

stand-up. I think it's partly because of

the possibility that you could really

die on your ass. Like that is exciting

that it could go horrifically wrong. But

But this is something I was going to ask

is as someone who said that there's that

voice in your head and things can

trigger it. What happens when it does go

horrifically wrong on stage?

It just depends cuz like

the truth is your mindset changes,

right? Cuz like

when I started doing stand-up

if I did badly

it's probably cuz I was [ __ ] right?

Whereas like now, I I I feel like I'm

all right at stand-up.

And now the gigs that go badly, you need

those gigs. You know, like it's like

going to the gym. You know, if I'm

trying to write a new tour

I've got to write new material.

So, I go on with 10 minutes of new

material, and I try it out. If I If it

goes for nothing, I'm disappointed

because none of the stuff's worked, but

it doesn't it doesn't make me think I'm

a [ __ ] comedian. I'm disappointed These

people are going to leave thinking

Romesh was crap tonight. I can't do

anything about that.

But

you're sort of going, "This is part of

the process." You know, you're like,

"I'm going to the gym. I've got to like

you learn more from those gigs." Do you

know what I mean? And so

it's still Don't get me wrong, it's

still horrib It's horrible. Saying

something and then looking out

[laughter]

at the silence. That never gets That

never gets easier, man. But

you're sort of going, "This is what

you've got to do." It's like when you're

you've got to take risks in the small

rooms so that when you do the big rooms,

it's better. You know, like you know,

you want to do stuff that's on the Not

necessarily on the edge, but you want to

do stuff where you might do an act out

that you wouldn't normally do, or you

might talk about something you've never

talked about before. And the risk is you

might tuck into a big plate of [ __ ]

But when you're in the big room, when

you're doing your tour

you'll go, "I wish I'd taken more risks

back then." Do you know what I mean? So,

you can't It's kind of a different It's

kind of a different process. Having said

that

I've done a corporate gig where I've

done an ass and I've absolutely

horrific. You know, like you It's Oh

god.

[laughter]

It's just so awful, man. There's

something really surprising about

someone who

attests to having that like

tricky internal monologue with

themselves Yeah. that would then put

themselves in such a high-risk

situation. [laughter]

I know. I know. I know.

I know. You'd expect You'd think someone

would just stay at home and just avoid

any chance of reinforcing that negative

voice.

Waking that prick up. Yeah. Yeah.

It's It's amazing, though.

The honest truth is I would have that

voice regardless of what I did. So, I

might as well do something I really

love. Do you know what I mean? And

I just absolutely like I'm addicted to

doing stand-up. I'm addicted to it. Even

if I don't have a tour to prepare for,

I'll go and do a gig. You know, I can't

not gig. And it makes me better at

everything. So, if I'm doing a travel

show

I'm funnier on the travel show if I'm

regularly gigging. If I'm not gigging,

I'd be worse on that panel on that

travel show. I'd be worse on a panel

show. I'd be worse talking to you now.

Like you know, you're just You're just

exercising that muscle of being on

stage. I just feel I'm addicted to it.

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Back to the episode.

So, you went and became a teacher. Yeah.

For a while. Um

and at some point you you make the

decision to

reach out and

swing onto that next branch. I'm trying

to understand that that sort of pivotal

moment and like what happened. What made

you take the the leap? Crazy, I mean, I

know comedians when they start out don't

get paid a huge amount of money.

You run at a loss for a long time. And

you were you had a kid on the way. Yeah.

In the process of you taking that leap.

Yeah, logically it was foolish.

There's no getting around that. But um

well, what happened was I started

teaching and I was really loving it.

And then

I am

I just wanted to do stand-up as a hobby.

Like all loads of teachers have got

hobbies, right? You know, so how many

teachers are in bands, right? So, I just

thought this is going to be my thing.

I'm going to do stand-up.

So, I just started doing gigs. And then

it started to go really well, and then

somebody said to me

"You know, you could do You could

definitely do this for a job." What did

you think when they said that?

I just didn't hadn't occurred to me.

Well,

that's a lie. It had occurred to me, but

I didn't think you you don't

There's so many people trying to do

stand-up, man. Like there's so many

people. It's so like

what are the chances that you're going

to be able to make a living out of it?

It's like so slim. And also, I just

hadn't seen it as a career thing. But

yeah, somebody comes to goes

It was like It was actually a

competition. I was doing a competition

called So You Think You're Funny in

Edinburgh.

And

I was in the I got to the semi-final,

and it's like one person got gets

through to the final, and I made it

through to the final. And then one of

the judges came up and said, "Oh, the

reason that we put you through is cuz as

soon as you walked in, we go, 'This

guy's going to be a comedian.' Like you

just look like you're going to be a

comedian. You can definitely do this for

a living."

So, there's just something about about

you we just go, "This guy's going to be

a comic." And so, that's when I was

like, "Oh, okay." And then my gigging

then had a bit more purpose in cuz

before I was just like, "I'm just going

to try and get good at this." You know,

that. But then now I was thinking, "Oh,

maybe I could do this for a job."

And then um

my agent So, so then I got an agent, and

the agent said to me, "If you really

want to give this a go, you're going to

have to leave teaching."

And

so I talked to my wife about it, and we

were like, "Okay." So, I decided to

leave at Christmas.

So, you give it like a half term's

notice or whatever.

And

um

Didn't you get caught by the

Oh, mate.

[laughter]

This is [gasps] so bad, man. But like

basically, I was head of sixth form.

Well, actually I was junior head of

sixth form.

And um

I don't know why I had to make that that

clarification.

[laughter]

Literally, nobody cares. Sorry, it was

I'm pretty sure Ramesh is junior head of

sixth form.

In that period of his life. Anyway,

why did I make that correction? Anyway,

um so I So basically, I got asked to do

this like

this show at the Edinburgh Fringe like

every night. It was just like

compilation mixed bill show effort. And

it's like a big opportunity.

And um but I was supposed to be back for

A-level

[laughter]

A-level results.

So I just got in touch with them and I

said um

my my wife's poorly and so I can't I

can't I feel embarrassed saying that. I

can't make it back.

And they went, "Okay."

And so I said, "I'll be back as soon as

I can." And then I just was like, "Okay,

that's fine. I've got away with that."

And then I came back to school

the first day of September

and nobody in the office was talking to

me. Like it was like a proper frosty

atmosphere and I thought, "Oh god,

what's happened here?" And then I opened

my computer and it said, "Could you come

to HR?"

So I went to HR

and they

uh

they said to me

the lady said to me, she's lovely. Um

she said to me

"So you couldn't come back because uh

your wife is poorly." And I said I said,

"Yeah." And And as soon as that she said

that, I thought, "This is over." Right?

And then she goes, "Right." And then she

just opened this drawer and just pulled

out this folder and it had like reviews,

me appearing on lineups. Like it was a

comprehensive dossier of what I'd been

up to at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

And it was just so tricky cuz I just

thought that would be great to have.

[laughter]

But But But as soon as she said that

um she was like, "What do you want to

do?" She goes, "You can't work with that

team anymore because they don't want to

work with you anymore because they like

they feel so like they're so pissed off

with you for what you've done."

She said, "We can move you to another

head of year team."

And I sort of knew that I was going to

leave to do comedy at that stage. So I

thought it's not fair to go and join

another head of year team only to leave.

So I just said I'll become a master like

you know, I'll take a step down and and

and be a master teacher and not have any

of that responsibility.

And so I just did that for the

remainder. But

when I left the thing that kind of uh

um

turned things upside down again was like

3 days before I was due to leave

teaching, my dad passed away suddenly of

a heart attack.

And so

um

Yeah, it

And so then basically, what happened was

is that the period after my dad passing

away

we had to sort out my mom's finance. It

turned out my dad's finances were a

house of cards. He'd got this pub that

he'd been sort of

borrowing money from the house to

finance and all this It was like a

nightmare.

So it just meant that it was like the

start of my comedy career was pretty

tough. Like we were just start throwing

ourselves trying to figure that out.

How did you deal with that? How did you

process the the loss of your father?

[snorts]

It was really difficult because

um

I was really close to my dad. I mean, my

relationship, as you can imagine, was

very troubled with my dad because, you

know, I'd seen this guy

I'd seen this guy kind of

want to leave us and, you know

he'd been sleeping around a lot

with a lot of different women.

And um I'd seen my you know, when we're

in the bed and breakfast, I'd seen my

mom cry herself to sleep every night.

And like it was really hard, you know,

that's all because of my dad.

So that was really difficult. And I

remember like I'd had loads of arguments

with him. He tried to be a parent again.

I resisted because I felt like he didn't

want to be a parent. How can you come

back in and start So you know, there's

very difficult.

But then as we got, you know, later on

in his life we got really close again.

And you know, I'm I'm absolutely

just delighted that when my dad passed

away, I was I I had a really good

relationship with him.

But it was hard, you know, like my dad

was the person I was most like in my

family. My mom and my brother are very

similar. And I was very And I'm very

similar to how my dad was.

So I found it really really difficult. I

found it really really hard. And um

the thing that I feel really sad about

for him is that sort of when he passed

away, he hadn't really got himself into

a comfortable position. You know, like

everything had gone wrong and he was

trying to work his way back up. But

you know, my recollection of my dad

right up to the day he died was like

absolutely working his ass off and kind

of chasing his tail, you know. So that

was that is a bit of sadness in that,

you know, I kind of think I wish he'd

had it a bit easier in his life. You

know, sometimes I think

you know, I'll be honest with you, if my

dad was still around, I would be broke

cuz he would have burned through all of

my money that I'd made from comedy. Like

my dad was like such a He's so

irresponsible with money.

So um

but yeah, there's a bit of sadness

there. If you could have gone back to

Ramesh when your father was alive in his

last 5 years, would you have acted

differently in any way? I'm always so

curious about this because I'm in a

position where I'm fortunate enough that

my parents are still around.

And I I spend time often forecasting the

things I'm going to regret. Is there

anything where you think, "I wish I'd

said this or I should have, you know

Yeah, [snorts] I mean

So I I Well

no is the honest answer.

I think that you can

be in a position where you don't feel

that. I mean, look, you're always going

to feel like I should have said I love

you more or whatever.

But I remember when I was 18

I'd I'd come back from uni and I'd been

out like with some mates getting drunk

and I hadn't told my mom when I was

going to come back and I came back later

than I said I was going to. And I walked

in pretty inconsiderate and drunk and my

mom and dad are sat in front of the TV.

And my dad said to me, "How can you come

back at this time?" And I said to him,

"How can you even talk to me about what

I should be doing in this house?" And

then I just launched into

a monologue about how he had no right to

tell me anything that I did in my life.

How he wanted to walk away. How can you

come back in here and tell me that I

should be doing whatever after what

you've done to mom, after what you've

done to me and me and my brother.

Like what are you doing? Like what You

know, and I just went into this rant and

he sat there, mate. As I'm telling you

now

he took it from me. And like, you know,

you think about

you know, Asian culture, you don't talk

You know, my dad was really laid-back,

but you don't talk to your parents like

that. Do you know what I mean? But he

sat there like he took it. He took every

word from me.

And

I stormed out the house

and my mom watched me have this

conversation. Ordinarily, like my mom

would

have

uh picked me up on it, but she didn't.

And I never spoke to my dad about that

conversation again. So like

I went out for a bit. I came back in the

next day. We never spoke about it. My

never My dad never asked for an apology.

I never apologized to my dad.

We never spoke about it again.

And if my relationship with my father

hadn't have improved after this point,

it would have

I I I don't know how I would feel about

that conversation. I I It would be

something that And even now as I'm

saying it to you, I made up with my dad,

but it kills me that I said that to him.

I don't disagree with anything I said.

But it does kill me that I said that to

him.

But when it was his 60th birthday

my dad's got loads of brothers and a

sister. A lot A lot of them came over

from Canada and Australia and to see

him.

And I wrote in his card

"Thank you for being

a great dad and somebody I look up to."

And

my dad opened the card

and he said to me He like read the card

and he went really quiet. It was like in

the middle of quite a raucous family

get-together. And he opened the card and

went really quiet. And he just said to

me, "Do you honestly mean that?" Like he

just didn't believe that that was my

view of him. And like

he couldn't like

And then I realized up to that point, my

dad

had just thought we'd not

He just thought we weren't cool because

of what had happened in the past. And he

goes, "You He said to me, "Do you

honestly mean that?" I said, "Yeah, of

course I do."

And then I felt, you know, I felt like

I feel like now my dad knew what I

thought about him. Do you know what I

mean? And And the

what I think of my dad is that he was a

deeply deeply deeply flawed human being

that had a great a lot of great things

about him. And And you know

um

So yeah, when he when he passed away, I

felt really

I felt really close to him, but

you know, there's loads of things like

There's things where like if I'm being

honest with you, when we started to go

when things started to go wrong, I was

quite materialistic. You know, can I

have this? Can I have that? Why can't I

have that anymore?

What What are you doing, you prick? Oh,

yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like why

are you valuing that stuff? I remember

like I've got a really vivid memory of

wanting the new Public Enemy album,

right? It was like 8.99 on cassette or

something.

And my dad said, "Yeah, I'll get it for

you." And then on the day, he just

didn't have a tenner. He just He didn't

have a tenner. He didn't have any money.

And I like flipped out. Do you know what

I mean? I flipped out. You promised me

you'd get But But that time, you look at

the context of it. You'd be forgiving If

you try If you're being forgiving to

that Ramesh, everything's going tits up.

This album is like some sort of

security. He wants to listen to that.

It's some sort of normality. Do you know

what I mean? And it's a promise as well.

Exactly. Exactly. And then he couldn't

in the circumstances. What I should have

done was gone, "Okay, cool. I'd love to

get it." That's what a good kid does.

I'd love Could you get it for me when we

can? Or I'll find another way to get it.

But as a kid, you sometimes interpret

that as like you don't love me. Maybe on

a deeper percent. You know what I mean?

Yeah, 100% and it's something that I'm

really conscious of with my kids now

because

you sort of go I don't want them to get

the message that I don't love them. So

But then you run the risk of like buying

them everything. Do you know what I

mean? It's like it's such a difficult

thing. I love you, have it. I love you,

have it. PlayStation, yes, I love you.

Like, hoodie, yes, I love you. Trainers,

yes, I love you. And then he goes, "Hold

on a minute. This ain't good. These kids

need to hear no."

So, yeah, it's a tricky one, man. What

about your mom?

She seems to have been this real warrior

throughout all of this turmoil, and I

was reading some quotes. I know she did

an interview where

um she just said that her the center of

her universe was you two, his brothers,

and she would have done

anything to you, including becoming a

cleaner and taking other jobs in shops

and stuff like that. She seems to be a

kind of

a real hero throughout your story.

Yeah, I mean

she's like a she's amazing. You know,

you you think about

um

you know, she she came over from Sri

Lanka.

My she was, you know, 19, 20 when she

came over. She grew up in a tiny

village.

She come gets thrown into this new

country. She tries to make her way, make

new friends. Her husband is immersed in

the world, in the country much more than

she is, because she's a stay-at-home,

you know, wife and mother.

And she's like, you know

making her way. And then

her life gets thrown upside down.

And she gets to a position where she has