So, here's a conundrum about technology

and happiness in our current moment. Did

smartphones make us miserable or were we

already miserable and then turned to

smartphones to cope and this ended up

making things worse? Now, this answer

matters. If the second option is right,

then creating a deep life in a

distracted world is not just about

reforming our use of technology. It

involves fixing a more fundamental

problem. And this is what I want to talk

about today. To help me, I'll be joined

by Arthur Brooks, who is a number one

New York Times best-selling author,

columnist for the Atlantic, and

professor who teaches leadership and

happiness at Harvard. Brooks has a new

book out that's called The Meaning of

Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of

Emptiness. In it, he argues that we

entered into this age of emptiness

starting in the 1990s and then in the

last decade, new technologies like

smartphones and social media served to

make things worse. In our discussion, we

get into the details of the shift. And

just as importantly, we explore Brooks's

advice for rediscovering the purpose

that we've lost. So, if you're at all

interested in seeking depth in our

current moment, you need to listen to

this episode. As always, I'm Cal Newport

and this is Deep Questions, the show for

people seeking depth in a distracted

world. And we'll get started right after

the music.

All right, Arthur Brooks, it's great to

have you back on the show to talk about

a book I'm really excited about because

I think there's a lot of ideas in here,

especially when it comes to the

complicated birectional relationship

between things like meaning

>> and technology

>> that we are in a really good dialogue

and we're kind of coming from the same

place. So, this is a conversation I've

been looking forward to, but I want to

start it where you started the book,

which is sort of setting up the problem

that we're going to address and how you

encountered it. So, I want to start it

with you returning to academia after a

10ear hiatus running a think tank here

in Washington DC. You returned to

academia. I think it was Harvard was

your position after that,

>> right?

>> Tell me about what it was. This is

interesting to me. What it was that you

noticed seemed different then than it

had been 10 years ago.

>> Yeah. So you and I are longtime

academics. I'm a third generation

academic. And and the truth is I love

academia. I always did love academia

because it was a happier place than the

rest of the of society. Generally

speaking, people when they're in

college, they made friends, they fell in

love, they were encountering interesting

and new ideas. They weren't in the millu

of you know ordinary life. And that was

a good thing as a matter of fact. And I

left academia in 2008 to become the

president of this think tank in DC. And

that was completely consuming position.

And so I wasn't paying attention to what

was going on in my old happy academic

home. Well, I came back 11 years later

and it's like a plague had gone through

my village when I got back because it

wasn't happier than the rest of society.

On the contrary, people weren't falling

in love more. They weren't in a better

mood. They weren't paying attention to

new and scary ideas with an open heart

and mind. On the contrary, it's exactly

the opposite of all that. There were

higher rates of depression than in the

rest of society. As a matter of fact,

depression rates had increased by about

a factor of three. Anxiety, generalized

anxiety, which is, you know, diagnosed

as such, had gone up, had doubled.

People are lonier on college campuses

than they were outside of colleges. And

it turns out that that was just sort of

the tip of the iceberg because as a

behavioral scientist, of course, this

really, really gets my attention. And I

started looking at what's going on. And

this is raging through society for

people under 30. something happened

after 2008 that that massively spiked

the the the amount of misery. There's a

psychoggenic epidemic, which is just

what we behavioral scientists, we get

tenure by making up fancy ways of saying

simple things. That's misery that

doesn't have a biological origin. And

so, boy oh boy, was I interested in

figuring out what this is. But more

importantly, I needed to figure out what

we could do. What's the problem? What

and you know, what do we where do we go

to find a solution? and then how do we

need to live differently to solve it?

Now, you're the OG on this, man, because

your stuff has been about this for a

long time. I got there a little bit

later, but this book really elucidated

to me the biggest problem in our society

today.

>> So, I like the idea that you went

through your thought process for

eliminating options. And the the first

option you pointed to that you

ultimately eliminated as the primary

explanation for what was going on is

something we hear a lot today. uh which

never really rang true for me. So I was

glad to hear you also say this doesn't

really explain what's going on. But it's

this idea that things somehow are harder

for the young generation than they've

ever been before. That somehow the the

boomers have taken everything and this

is like the there's a sort of new

hardship. There's no jobs. They'll never

buy houses. Like I hear this all the

time. It's become uh a standard mantra

and this was an explanation we hear a

lot for why people uh were upset, why

they're depressed, why they're anxious.

>> I have my reasons why I didn't buy that.

But why didn't you buy that?

>> Because the data just don't support it.

The idea that life is uniquely hard. I

mean, there's two birectional

explanations for why why why everything

is so tough. People my age and so I'm 40

years older than undergraduates. You're

20 years older than undergraduates. And

and people who are in their early 20s

today, people my age will say it's

because they're weak. It's because

they're weak people. We've made them

weak or society's made them weak or

wealth has made them weak. And they say

no, it's because you ruined the world.

And so it's like this intergenerational

blame game that's actually happening.

And the truth of the matter is they're

not weaker than than generations past

and life isn't harder than generations

past. Both of those don't actually hold

water when you look factually. And at

the book I look factually at those

explanations. I want to rule those

particular things out. When I talk to

young people when they say, "Well,

expense houses are more expensive than

they used to be and income inequality is

worse than it used to be and the

environment is worse than they used to

be." And one by one by one, I'll talk

about how the world is actually not

perfect and in some ways gotten harder,

but in most ways it's actually gotten

better. And then I'll explain to people

my age how people actually aren't weaker

now and they aren't more feeble than

they've been in the past because I have

data on what people my age looked like

at that age and it wasn't that great

either.

>> We hear it every generation I'm sure. I

mean I my dad's a baby boomer. My mom's

a baby boomer and you know I often think

about their stories and I'm like well

that sounds harder than my life. I mean,

the defining feature of my dad's college

and grad student years was like, "Oh,

sorry. I have to put this on hold

>> to go into basic training for the army

down in like Louisiana and Texas and do

that for a few years and then come back

or to hear my mom talk about uh look, I

my parents her parents were clear like

you're going off to college, you're not

coming home." And there wasn't that many

job opportunities necessarily for, you

know, a woman coming out of a small

college. She had to become a flight

attendant, teach herself how to computer

program. They lived in a small East St.

Louis apartment. Like I was like, that

sounds hard.

>> Yeah.

>> It didn't sound like this was, you know,

this was uniquely easy. But I'm sure

their parents said the same thing, which

was

>> I had to go through the Great

Depression.

>> Yours. My parents were called the silent

generation. And they were named that by

the greatest generation, which was my

grandparents' generation. And the the

greatest generation was named that by

the greatest generation, by the way. And

they called the silent generation that

because they were a bunch of slackers.

In other words, every generation

actually does this. So that's not the

reason that we have this unbelievable

explosion of mood disorders and misery

that's happened since 2008. It's not

because there's something uniquely wrong

or something new about society. That's

not it.

>> Yeah. Okay. So what what do you think is

going on?

>> So when I when I when I'm doing a data

analysis as a a behavioral social

scientist, I look at a bunch of survey

data. Okay. I start to find patterns.

But then I do what old school scholars

used to do like you know Adam Smith when

he was writing the wealth of nations he

went out and walked around factories and

talked to workers. I mean that is like

the and just and ask them because what

do you do as a social scientist? You

listen to the words that people say and

you say and you listen to the words that

keep popping up again and again and

again until the penny drops. And in

doing that I actually found that people

young people in particular they said

yeah you know my my life is good. It's

good, but it feels fake. It feels like a

simulation. It feels meaningless. They

kept saying this word meaning over and

over again. I don't know what I'm meant

to do. I'm just doing everything I'm

doing, but I don't know what I'm meant

to do. And I don't know what the meaning

of what I'm doing. And and and most

importantly, and this is actually in the

data very clearly, the number one

predictor of mood disorders like just

depression and anxiety is the answer to

the question, does your life feel

meaningless? And people saying yes. a

yes answer to the meaninglessness of

life question. That's what best predicts

the misery that we see today. It's a

meaning problem, Cal.

>> Interesting. Well, so let me read you a

quote uh from the book that I think gets

at this well. And I uh this is quoting I

believe a young person you talked to,

>> right?

>> Life felt unreal, full of false rewards,

empty accomplishments, therapeutic talk,

and fake experiences, all curated to

pass the time uh as painlessly as

possible. So that's that's explaining

what life without meaning. Those are the

things that define.

>> That's right. I mean, we're basically

just like we're not happy. We're not

satisfied. It doesn't feel real. And so

therefore, we've got more therapy to to

kind of deal with this creeping sense of

emptiness. And I'm just kind of waiting

around. A lot of a lot of pe young

people say that they're they're kind of

just scrolling their phones like they're

in an airport lounge waiting for a

flight to take off. And you don't even

know even the status of the flight. you

don't even know if it's going to get

cancelled and you just sit there kind of

I don't want to do this but you know I'm

waiting for something they're they all

say they're they're like they're waiting

for something and they don't even know

what it is that's this sense of

emptiness. Well, I I so I want to get

now I want to drill in on this

technology connection now because now

we're getting obviously into a neck of

the woods that I'm interested

>> for a real reason, right?

>> Let's get where you know I want to be.

This is okay. So, let me

>> I think this aligns with the way you're

thinking about it. If I'll just run by

like one of the things that emerged from

my thinking and writing post post

pandemic that confused people, but I

don't think it should be confusing is

when I started talking about this

concept of the deep life, which is a

life of meaning and intention. So in

line with like what you're talking about

here and people would say why are you

talking about that you're the technology

distractions you know deep work digital

minimalism guy why are you talking about

trying to build a life of meaning and

what have you and I said well let me

tell you the lesson I learned from my

book deep work is uh just talking to

people about um your distractions at

work are bad didn't get too far but if

you have this bigger better offer deep

work is great this is more meaningful

then it's much easier to move away from

all the distractions because you have a

bigger better offer. And when it came to

people being on their phones all the

time and social media all the time and

being caught up into these sort of webs

of distractions, I realized you can't

just talk about that directly. You have

to talk about what's the bigger better

offer. That that's somewhere you fall.

If you don't have anywhere else to go,

you're you're uh you're lacking meaning,

you're anxious, um you want to numb, you

want to escape, or you're just bored,

>> then you'll fall back to the phone. So

just telling someone don't be on TikTok

so much. Yeah, it doesn't solve the

problem because they're going there for

a reason. So, I ended up having to talk

about this is why like I love having you

on the show is because actually what

you're talking about the meaningful

life, right, is something that you have

to figure out if you want to figure out

how do I not stare at like a video game

or a phone all day. Are we are we

aligned on this?

>> Yeah. This is not a book about I mean I

it wouldn't be original if it was about

the fact that that phones are addictive

and that technology is a problem. I

there's plenty in this book about that

fact. What this is a book about is what

you deeply want and that you can't get

and then you need to go and get. This is

about the bigger better offer. That's

really what it comes down to. Exactly

what we're talking about. Which by the

way is the same thing in any addictive

process. You know, if you come to me and

say, "Hey, Arthur, man, I just got I'm

I'm just drinking all the time. You

know, I'm drinking my breakfast. I'm

drinking my lunch." And I would say,

"Cal, I got I got I got some incredibly

new and and you know, bold piece of

advice for you. Stop drinking." You

know, now that's not what I'm going to

do. That's obviously true. But I'm going

to find out why you're drinking so much.

What it is that you're actually seeking.

Is it a feeling? Is it relief from your

anxiety? Is it because you're really

bored? Is because you're having trouble

at home? Let's talk about what the

actual problem is. Generally speaking,

people who just start drinking is

because they're trying to cut the

connection between their their amygdala

and their prefrontal cortex because

they're suffering from a lot of anxiety

and it's very effective for doing so or

they're bored and lonely or all of those

things. And so I want to know what those

things are and I want to fill those

holes in their life otherwise they're

not going to stay off the sauce. And the

same thing is true for this. So the

beginning of this book is okay, what is

the meaning of life and then why is it

such a problem? because we're all

getting so addicted to this stuff. And

then what is it that you really want and

how do you have to live differently? And

that's the biggest part of the book.

>> Let's take a quick break to hear from

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know we sent you. All right, let's get

back to my conversation with Arthur

Brooks. So why did sticking a little bit

longer with the motivation what happened

with you know in 2000 what this window

2008 to 2019

>> why did this generation begin to have

more of these meeting problems which we

will then perfectly solve

>> the next but what what's going on here

>> so it predates the iPhone and I know

what people are thinking right now 2007

the first iPhone was delivered 2008 it

became ubiquitous by 2009 it was in

everybody's pocket by 2010 everybody had

apps on the iPhones and and we proceed a

pace. That's actually not the exact

explanation. The iPhone was produced as

part of a broader culture of hustle and

and technology. It was part of a the

broader culture that said all of these

deep complex needs in your life for love

and beauty and suffering and and calling

and transcendence, we can solve it with

these complicated things. we can

actually bring genius to bear in

engineering that can solve these

problems which has been the the mantra

of the age man and there's nothing

really new about that but that really

really started exploding in the new

century before the iPhone the iPhone was

produced to solve problems that it can't

solve all these tech things do I mean

think about it when when when Facebook

was invented at my university I mean the

the promise was it was going to wipe out

loneliness loneliness is a complex human

problem. The you know that Facebook is a

complicated engineered algorithm and

complicated algorithms can't solve

complex human needs. They can't. The

result is if you try to do that, you're

going to get lonier, not less lonely. If

you're trying to wipe out your

loneliness with social media, you're

going to wind up lonelier. And I got the

data to show it. I've got the studies

that actually show that. And that's the

same thing with everything else. So the

problem isn't the iPhone. The problem is

how we use it. Because this is the way

the culture has been pushing us in the

first place. this was like Silicon

Valley. What would what was the change

of the culture? It was the shift of the

economy towards a more of like a tech IP

uh post.com bus. You have the new.com

boom. So there's different elements I

guess that was shifting us towards this

more technical or technocratic way of

thinking about human emotion. What are

the forces that are coming together

here?

>> So this is what we might call the

post-industrial revolution. The

industrial revolution everybody

understands actually what it how it

worked and you know when it it created

the middle class but but it also

destroyed a lot of indigenous ways of

living a lot of normal ways of you know

of families being together led to a lot

of urbanization and family fragmentation

etc etc the post-industrial revolution

is very similar in its way and what it

basically says is that we're going to

move toward al an algorithmic approach

to the things that to the basic human

needs that we actually all care about.

So as for example with the industrial

revolution what it did is it made

physically weak people strong by adding

machines to the way that we work. The

post-industrial re revolution it makes

people smarter. It actually is an

enhancement of cognitive skill. But the

important thing to keep in mind is that

it doesn't enhance all of your cognitive

skills. You have two kinds of cognitive

skills. You got the the leftbrain

complicated stuff and you have the right

brain complex stuff. And the right brain

is all the why questions of love and

mystery and meaning. That's real life.

On the left brain, you have all the

algorithms that you're actually trying

to solve. And and we have these things

every day and they're important. How do

I get my food? How do I get to work? How

do I find my destination? How do I turn

on my computer? All of these are

leftrain problems. The engineered

approach to life, the post-industrial

revolution, gives us this massive left

brain, but it lies to us. It says that

we can actually with that massive left

brain solve our right brain needs for

mystery, meaning, love, and happiness.

And it can't be done.

>> Now, is this explain or is this a data

point uh supporting that claim? the idea

that you talk about in your book that

you you saw that the suffering was worse

among young people that were in the most

sort of elite striving

>> educ like at Harvard this was like a

really big problem right

>> that would sort of track with I think

the the otherwise widely accepted you

know understanding of in the

post-industrial age you see elite

educational institutions uh separated

themselves from all of those things you

just said we don't really want to be in

the business of the numinous we don't

want to be in the business of the

transcendent we don't want to be talking

about um value and love and more moral

courage. We want to be talking about

theory. We want to be talking about uh

science. We want to be talking about a

very sort of highly educated way of

seeing the world. And in fact, we're

going to separate the world in between

people that can sort of uh approach it

through complex applications of

expertise and then those who don't who

don't really know what's going on.

>> STEM, baby.

>> Like, forget the humanities. It's all

STEM. Forget the good life. if you're

not actually studying something that

will I mean learn to code which people

used to say before coding became

completely overtaken by events and you

know back in these things and it's

interesting because I had this kind of

natural experiment you know I've got

three kids but my two older kids are

sons and they're only two years apart

and one of them went to Princeton to

study you know math and math and

economics and the other one didn't go to

college he worked on a farm and then

joined the Marine Corps as a sniper in

the Marine Corps okay now my kids are

fine and they're doing really really

well, but I'm really interested in their

communities. What I found found was my

older son was surrounded by people with

this on Wii and the sense of emptiness

and looking for meaning and okay, I

guess I'll get into the hustle and grind

culture and then all day long on the

phone. And my younger son, he wasn't

spending time on his phone at all. On

the contrary, he's goofing around with

his friends. None of his friends went to

college cuz they were enlisted US

Marines and they were having a great

time and they were super happy. What's

up with that? My younger son was living

the old way and my older son was living

the new way. And that is exactly what

actually helped me to crack the case

here was just looking at my own kids.

Oh,

>> that's fascinating. That's f it's almost

like in my my own sibling, right? Where

my my brother went to the Naval Academy

in the Navy and was on subs and I went

to Dartmouth and MIT and did like math

and computer science. Uh yeah, he lives

life. Oh man, he lives life. He's like

this is great. He lives in California.

He's always out there mountain biking

and surfing and going on, you know, he's

like really into it. All right, so this

is

>> by the way, you have escaped the matrix.

>> You actually escaped the matrix that

many computer scientists are stuck in

because you didn't fool yourself or you

didn't let the world lie to you to tell

you that your training, which is the

massive increase of your left

hemispheric activity, could solve your

right brain needs. You love your wife in

real life. You love your kids in real

life. You're a man of faith in real life

and you're not mediating that. Your

phone is out in the foyer. I know that

because I read your stuff.

>> Well, it helps. I think what helped that

was the fact that I ended up after grad

school at Georgetown, which is a Jesuit

university that is a liberal arts

institution that cares about those

things.

>> Yeah.

>> And it still You'll still walk by uh you

know, a Jesuit priest will walk by.

There'll be a Noviate going by. They

care about uh they care about uh

humanistic values. They care about

justice. They care about transcendence

and you're surrounded by it and it sort

of colors even the STEM work but okay so

let me there's a complicated thing that

confused me and I think there's an

answer to this complicated scenario in

your book right because I agree with

what you're saying you have a change in

the culture in the 21st century that

leads to this this problem of meaning

meaninglessness among young people but

there is also these timing hooks into

some of the negative um effects we see

to technology, right? Like especially

the the spread of the the smartphone led

in certain circumstances you see these

large bumps in the mental health issues.

Certainly you'll see this on college

campuses partially what like put me on

what I write about was like getting to

Georgetown and in like 2012 talking to

the head of the mental health counseling

to CAT program there and her just saying

we've like double or tripled anxiety

anxiety related disorders like in the

last couple of years. And I was like

what's the difference? She was like,

"It's the phones. The first kids who

showed up with phones, it's getting

worse." But tell me if I have this

right, because I think there's an answer

in your book, which is the way you talk

about the doom loop, which is this idea

of it's not that we were fine and then

we got the phones and then we got bad.

It was no, we were in this new perilous

situation. I'm throwing this out here.

You tell me if this is right. We were in

this new perilous cultural situation in

which we're getting disconnected from

these traditional right brain sources of

meaning. In that situation when iPhones

came along, uh we had smartphones that

allowed us to basically amplify or

supercharge the disconnection from

meaning that we were already having by

falling into what you call the doom

loop. Is that is that correctly

resolving this sort of

>> exactly right and doom loops are

characteristic of any addictive cycle

>> and and and the brain chemistry is very

same is very much the same across all of

these different cycles. And so you'll

find, for example, that if you're bored

and anxious, then you drink some

alcohol. And what that does is it makes

you it makes you feel better for a

minute, then you're more bored and

anxious. And so you drink some more

alcohol, and then you escalate, and down

and down and down it goes. And the same

thing is more or less true with the way

that we're in a society that has a lack

of inherent meaning that we actually

will because we're anxious and we're

bored. So that we use the technology to

distract ourselves. We use the the

technology to pass the time and that

makes us more bored and anxious and

that's the doom loop that we can't quite

get out of. The other way you should we

could think about it is the simulation

cuz that's what a lot of young people

told me in this. It's kind of like you

remember in 1999 sorry to shock you but

that's 27 years ago now at this point.

So even a young guy like you is going to

feel really old. But that's when The

Matrix was actually when it came out.

And the plot of that movie was that in

the years 2199, science fiction flick,

but they think it's 1999 in the movie

because they're living in pods being fed

a simulation of real life because an

artificial intelligence, a

superengineered

machine intelligence is is sucking the

energy out of humans in terms of their

energy, in terms of their attention. And

you have to pacify them by keeping them

in the simulation. Cal, we're in the

matrix. We're stuck in the matrix.

That's the doom loop is we don't know

how to get out of the matrix. And and so

that's a lot about that that's another

way to think of the same problem.

>> Do we is it uh is it useful or is this

crass to try to find useful analogies to

the fentanyl crisis in the sense of you

start with the same ground which is a

disconnection from traditional sources

of meaning. Um, so the problem is

already there. In this case, it's for

various economic drivers. Then you

introduce into the picture a a a vehicle

of escape that has lots of negative

externalities. In this case, it leads to

lots of uh deaths of despair and

overdose deaths. Whereas in the social

media world, you throw social media into

a ground where we're disconnected from

meeting and we tend to get um great

amplifications of anxiety, anxiety

related disorders. But in both cases,

there's a an underlying problem and then

you throw into the mix a sort of escape

that becomes addictive and causes its

own amplifies problems or causes its own

problems. Is that a reasonable analogy?

>> Well, we can, but we don't want to push

it too far. And part of the reason is

because

>> for many many millions of people, social

media is not a net bad. It it isn't a

net bad. It's not heroin. I mean, by the

way, there are a lot of analesic

painkillers that are not a net bad if

you actually need them for that matter.

But for many people, especially older

people that remember the four times,

social media is a phenomenal way to stay

a breast of your friends and to connect

with your grandchildren and to get a

good chuckle from time to time because

they can actually use it in a moderate

way. The problem is people who use it to

treat an underlying problem of misery

and dislocation and loneliness. A and

when they use it for that and distract

themselves and and and and solve the

problem of boredom, my goodness, you

know, boredom is really important and

and yet it's really uncomfortable

because it's boring. But mother nature

of course doesn't care and we've never

been able to do it. But when we solve

the problem of boredom, we we invite all

kinds of maladies. I mean, I'll tell you

something that my great my

great-grandfather Leroy Brooks, I

guarantee you he never said to Mary

Ellen, my great-grandmother, he never

came home and said, "Honey, I had a

panic attack behind the mule today."

Right? And the reason is because it

wasn't a thing. Because his brain wasn't

malfunctioning because he was bored a

lot. But, and here's the great irony of

the doom loop that we're actually in

today. His life was very boring moment

to moment behind that mule. But I

guarantee you his life wasn't boring.

People today are never bored moment to

moment, but their life is grindingly

boring. What's going on with that? To

eradicate moment to moment boredom,

we've traded away an interesting life.

That's what it's come down to because

our brains are working wrong. And that's

an encapsulation of the doom loop that

we're stuck in.

>> Interesting. Yeah. So to seek that

stimulation in the moment, you prevent

the the bigger picture action.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, so let's get into these equations

then because you know I like equations.

So I thought this I had never seen this

before. uh your relation of happiness to

meaning is you say okay happiness is an

equation it's this plus this plus this

um one of those factors is meaning those

other two factors we have it's not a

problem uh but the meaning if we don't

have the meaning we don't have the

happiness and then we can zoom in and

say okay then what is meaning well

meaning is this plus this plus this um

so those other two factors in happiness

were enjoyment satisfaction and meaning

so you think enjoyment satisfaction

no problem actually we're doing great

with that it's the meaning Yeah. So,

it's the meaning part we're missing.

>> Um Okay. And then because we're getting

enjoyment satisfaction just because

>> we we have stuff to do. If you're a

strive at Harvard, like you can you're

doing lots of satisfying stuff. Um and

we have enjoyment because we have access

to like endless things that in the

moment

>> give us all sorts of pleasure.

>> And we have friends and people actually

have friends and they do things together

um a lot. Not as much as they should to

be sure, but enjoyment is pleasure plus

people plus memory. That's how enjoyment

actually works. So, it's not just

pleasure. The secret to happiness is not

the pursuit of pleasure. The pursuit of

pleasure leads to rehab, not happiness.

But when we actually do things, and

young people do, they're really good at

it. It's actually kind of extraordinary.

Gen Z, they tended to be better in

enjoyment than boomers, as a matter of

fact. And you know, this is an this is

an achievementbased society. Their

satisfaction levels, which is the joy

from an accomplishment after struggle,

they're really good at that. But but

meaning is in the seller. meaning the

bottom has absolutely dropped out.

>> All right, so we there's uh four big

things you talk about in the book. I'm

going to ask you about some of these out

of order just thinking about my

audience's interests. All right, I want

to start with the one that overlaps my

work calling. All right, just what

you're doing right

>> in your profession. All right, I'm

nervous about this one because I you

know I wrote a book back god a long time

ago. I was still a postoc but I wrote a

book a long time ago that said we put

too much emphasis in our job being a

major source of um like passion and

meaning actually do something really

well you can craft it into something

that's that's meaningful in your life

but but don't don't be searching for

like the perfect work. You say calling

is important. All right. So help me

understand what that means and I want to

see if I can make it compatible with my

>> calling is this feeling that you're

doing something that you're meant to do

whether you enjoy it all the time or

not. That's what it comes down to. Now

I, you know, I teach at the Harvard

Business School. So I have a lot of

people that really are really going to

go work hard, lots and lots and lots of

hours. And and one of the things that I

tell them is don't worry about work life

balance. worry about work life

integration because your work should be

part of your life and it should make

your life better and and and and your

life outside work should make your work

better is what it comes down to. So if

your only strategy for finding

satisfaction in life is working all the

time, you're doing it wrong. And that's

why in the chapter on calling I have as

part of your calling doing leisure right

now. Leisure is actually not chilling on

a beach. If you're chilling on a beach

in every vacation, it means you're so

exhausted that all you're trying to do

is to get ready to work more and you're

doing it wrong is what it comes down to.

Leisure, according to to Yseph Peeper,

you know, the great 20th century German

philosopher, it really comes down to it.

It comes down to doing something with

purpose that they don't pay you for,

something generative that they don't pay

you for, where you grow as a person. And

he puts it into three kind of

categories. spiritual uh development,

relationship development, and

intellectual development. In other

words, go read the brother's keramazov

if you're going to be on the beach for

Pete's sake and do it with the love of

your life and then go pray or or

something like that. I mean, it's

basically what it comes down to is

developing yourself. And that is so

important that it actually is part of

the calling per se, what you're meant to

do as a person.

>> But how do you find a calling?

>> Yeah. So finding a calling really comes

down to and you know there's a lot of

stuff written on this of course there's

a lot of philosophy written on this is

looking for compensation that comes in

two in two ways that you find and this

is you know I'm an old economist so

behavioral economist so this is you you

go back to your computer science days I

go back to the equations of the board as

an economist and the two things that

actually predict people feeling like

their work is a meaningful calling have

nothing to do with money or position or

prestige or title There's two things.

Number one is the belief that they're

earning their success, which is to say,

I feel like I'm creating value with my

life and value in my work for me and for

others. And the second is they feel that

they're needed because they're serving

other people. That's what it comes down

to. And again, that doesn't mean that

you're you're changing the world. You

don't have to be Mother Teresa. Maybe

you feel like your co-workers need you.

That you know, it would matter if you

didn't show up. But if you feel like

you're acknowledged and rewarded for

your hard work and personal

responsibility, merit is everything. Cal

merit-based systems are so important.

You and I both know that tenure-based

systems are not very motivating. We're

both academics. Loyaltybased systems

like in government are the worst

actually for motivating people. But what

everybody knows when they're there on

the basis of merit and that's what

actually helps. But more important is

that they're serving their fellow women

and men. That's what it comes down to.

So, it's earning your success and

serving other people. Then, you know

you're in the in the zone of calling.

>> Well, okay. So, there's two things there

that that puts you so much on my my

wavelength that I'm I'm excited about it

to the point where my readers like, "Oh,

yeah, that's Cal." Right? Like the two

things you said there that definitely

caught my attention is okay. The way

you're talking about it is this is not

about the matching of the specific

content of the job to some sort of

narrow pre-existing inclination, which

is what my generation was taught,

>> right? Follow your passion was 1990s

into the early 2000s. We were taught

what matters is the content of your job.

You have to figure out through

introspection that you're meant to be a

beat reporter for a baseball team and

that's your passion and if you can match

that to your job, you'll be happy.

Otherwise, you won't. Nothing you said

was about the content of the job. It was

about the properties. Uh so you don't

have to figure out in advance

what is the perfect job for me. And then

two, those things you're talking about

feeling like you're valued and have on a

real merit basis and being able to

really be serving people that develops

over time, right? That does go along

with you might not feel that way as much

in the first month of a job out of

college than where you're going to be 20

years after you've built up real

expertise and and real skills that are

important. You understand the industry.

So, it's something that you develop and

gets richer over time.

>> Yeah,

>> those two notes are music music to my

ears. So I think we're

>> and I've learned that through long

experience. You know when I was in my

20s when I thought that my passion, my

everything, my all was classical music.

I was a professional French horn player.

I was playing in the Barcelona City

Orchestra. I was going to be the world's

greatest French horn player. So I

thought I thought that was the only

thing I was actually made for. And if I

didn't do that, I might as well die,

Cal. And the reason is because I had

been taught to follow my passion. And

what I found was that I wasn't going to

be the world's greatest French horn

player. And I married a woman who said

it doesn't really matter. And I went

back to school and I found I was

interested in all these different

things. And I was good at things I

didn't actually know I was. And I went a

completely different direction for

Pete's sake. I became a behavioral

scientist. And then later on I became a

CEO of a big think tank in Washington

DC. And now now I teach happiness at a

business school. And the truth is it's

the best man because what I'm doing is

I'm I'm I'm cycling around. is what that

there's an old research by a a social

psychologist at USC um named Michael

Driver who talked about the the the

kinds of careers based on psychological

profiles and and and a lot of really

accomplished professionals are called

spy roles meaning that they reinvent

themselves every 7 to 12 years which you

did I mean you were you're you know a

very you know conventional

you know computer scientist and now you

write how to people to be happy for

Pete's sake thank god you teach at

Georgetown Because you know you can

actually do stuff like that because

you're a spiral. Every 7 to 12 years you

reconceive of yourself thinking what can

I do now based on where I am in my life

and my relative skills and my my

crystallized intelligence and how I'm

changing and and how I see the world

where I can earn my success and I can

serve others. Those are the two

questions.

>> All right. I want to ask you about

religion. I I have a question for you

about religion because I'm on I'm I'm on

board with you uh listing the

transcendent as one of the key factors

for actually regaining this meaning. But

I want to ask you a question about quote

unquote kids these days

>> and their relationship to religion

because it's confusing to me or unknown

to me. Right? So my generation uh when

we when we came of age we we came of age

in that sort of uh George W. Bush era

where there was this sort of um

interesting schism that happened. the

left moved away from religion that

became the the rights sort of uh domain.

Um we got there this was like the

intelligent design debates and there

became this sort of cultural split. This

is when new atheism arose post 911.

There's all of these forces that um made

a real sort of antagonistic relationship

to religion um and often associated it

with um I don't know conservative

politics and simplicity on the other

side of science. And so my generation

grew up with like John Stewart making

fun of evangelicals, right? And so we we

had a complicated relationship with

religion that now the millennials are

sort of repairing. What's going on with

Gen Z? Where are they? Are they what are

you seeing? Are they

>> pro religion, anti-religion, indifferent

to religion, dislike it matters? Like

what's going on with this new

generation? So until about three or four

years ago, the answer was they continued

to walk away from religion. And you saw

more and more people self-identifying as

nuns. Not like nuns with habits,

Catholic nuns that you were at

Georgetown with. Nuns, Nes, people who

are identifying as having no

spirituality or religious tradition. The

year I was born in 1964, nice long time

ago, that was 1% of the population.

Right now it's 32% of the population is

what we find. And so it's massively

increased and that was largely because

of Gen X and millennials who are coming

through exactly the bubble that we

talked about here. But but but something

has happened in this sort of age of

emptiness. It's almost as if there's a

bill of goods that they've been sold.

Not that there's a particular religion

that's that's suiting it. But we found

in the past three years is that there's

a tick up or a tick down I should say in

the nuns that there's a tick up in the

people who are actually starting to

identify as spiritual or religious

starting with young men. And that's

usually how it goes by the way. You know

the whole idea where every time religion

is is is waning people are like yeah no

man that's it that's it. That's it. And

then it starts to wax again.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And it and it's gone through

this. I mean we go back to the time of

the American Revolution for example.

people were about as irreligious as they

are today. And then we go to after the

Civil War, this massive boom in

religious experience where I mean that's

when all of the

>> Yeah. That's when all of the uh reformed

Jew Jewish temples in America were

coming across between the Civil War and

the First World War. Boom, man. That's

when the Mormons were there. The

Methodists and the Baptists were just

doing these tent revivals, the

temperance movement, the

self-improvement movements, which are

quasi religious movements. And then, you

know, in the ' 50s it was more

traditional religion. And then you know

through the hippie revolution it changed

and then there was a cult. There was all

the cults that actually came through and

the mooneyies and all this kind of

stuff. And this is just American life.

And so what's happening right now is

when people feel this onw wei this acute

sense of emptiness religion is going to

be is not going to be very far behind.

And sure enough that's actually the

beginning of what we're starting to see

today.

>> But help me resolve this tension. Right.

So we're we're in this this new moment

that started sort of early 21st century

which is much more algorithmic and

technocratic way of thinking about

treating life. It seems like it's

causing two uh two counter forces right

so force number one is that creates a

non-we or meaninglessness which will

drive people back to I need something

like religion to act as like the

operating system for the newness in my

life. But at the same time the culture

itself has a defense mechanism against

religion. It makes you uncomfortable

about religion if you're steeped in this

much more technical scientific

algorithmic culture because you say

>> I have lost the ability to comfortably

deal with something that doesn't exist

in the the matrix of empiricism that

doesn't exist in terms of like this is a

um we're making observations of putting

them on tables and we're we we're

verifying if this is true or false and

we're thinking about factchecking and

and you know it's a the whole cultural

millu that you're talking about is one

in which if you're in that world

religion doesn't make sense. So, it's

driving us towards religion, but it's

also a culture that's going to make us

uncomfortable with religion. I guess

what that creates, like we saw coming

out of Silicon Valley in the 2010s, a

lot of people that were talking about

there's a period where every every

friend I had was saying they were

spiritual but not religious, which to me

would be an exact personification of

exactly those tensions. But what's going

to win here? Because we have

counterforces.

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show.

>> So, I I think that what's going to win

is the desire to be happier. that that's

what's going to win because you know

who's going to choose misery forever on

purpose is the whole point. So here it's

actually a deeper problem than what

you're talking about. You know the work

of Ian McGillchrist the great

neuroscientist and and philosopher at

Oxford now ameritus he did the work on

hemispheric lateralization that I talked

about before where the left brain does

the complicated engineering stuff and

the tech that you're dealing with every

day and the right brain is the why

questions that don't have answers about

love and mystery and meaning and

happiness. And so what happens is that

when you're only on the left brain

because you're on the tech all day long

and you're in the hustle and grind

culture, it's not that you can't deal

with religion. It's just that you don't

even it doesn't even occur to you to

deal with religion because you're

literally in the wrong part of your

brain all day long to deal with

religious questions. Now, that means

that when people become miserable

enough, they'll say, "What is actually

missing?" And that's when you get a

whole rash of books by cats like you and

me that say, uh, let's take a little

look at what you've been missing. And

when they do, you get a cultural

revolution. I don't mean in the Chinese

sense. I mean in the sense of when we

actually get these religious waves in

our society and when people start to

rebel against it. And that's actually

what I see for the first time. I'm in

I'm in Silicon Valley all the time.

Look, I'm super into tech. I actually

believe that AI is going to wind up at

the end of the day mostly making us

happier because a lot of people are

going to figure out that you know all

the leftrain stuff that it does actually

frees us up to have a lot more time. the

tech the the industrial revolution

initially made people work more but then

it created the weekend and on the

weekend they actually hung out with

their kids and what AI is ultimately

going to do is do a lot of leftbrain

nonsense and in the free time that we

ultimately will have we will have like

do crazy old-fashioned stuff like

falling in love and having babies and

praying and meditating and I actually

figure that that's the direction that

we're going to go because that's the

humans what humans ultimately

always do in the end that they choose

happiness.

>> So, uh well, I I don't know if I share

your optimism. Unfortunately, on AI,

just because I've studied too many

workplace technologies and the

possibility is always there, we always

mess it up. We always mess it up. We

always end up making our lives more

frantic. Uh because we're

>> Yeah. But each one of us can make that

decision. Now, by the way,

>> I agree.

>> Which is why you write your books.

>> Yeah. And I've been telling people,

yeah, think about AI. How can I automate

something that's annoying? If you're

using it to avoid strain in your brain,

there be dragons. Like actually, no, no,

no. You want to keep that piece, that

sort of humanistic, I'm trying to create

new value with my brain. Keep that. But

if this means you have to not format a

PowerPoint slide, oh, fantastic. There's

no reason for you to be doing. All

right. So, you don't like formatting

PowerPoint slides unless that's your

actual thing is what it comes down to.

And by the way, don't use it as a

substitute for your relationships.

That's the biggest mistake that people

make is making it your getting the

girlfriend experience from AI or or

making it your buddy or god forbid your

therapist. That actually is a substitute

and your brain will know the difference.

It will never pass the touring test of

the right hemisphere of your brain. And

even though you say, "Wow, that's really

good advice." That will make you feel

empty, depressed, and anxious because

your right brain is craving a true human

experience.

>> Yeah. And it knows the difference. Well,

let's talk about that because that was

another one of your um the things you

mentioned as sources of meaning is fall

in love, have relationships. I know this

is being said as a struggle um uh

especially for younger people. Um why

and what should they do to overcome that

struggle?

>> To begin with, it's been we we've made

it a lot worse with the technical

mediation of the relationships

themselves. You know, the truth is that

the best possible way to find a mate is

to go someplace where those people

actually are and to deal with them over

an interest that you have in common.

That's actually how you meet people,

which is why traditionally people would

meet their mate in college or in the

workplace, right? Another great way to

do it is that somebody another human

being who knows you sets you up which is

why matchmakers and families are so

really good at actually finding people

because they're dealing with a

complexity of the human person

themselves. When you inter

disintermediate that with dating apps

what you're doing is you're reducing

people to a two-dimensional faximile of

themselves and that is inherently

unsatisfying. That's one of the reasons

that people who date a lot in the apps,

they get way more dates than they used

to. And they find less attraction than

they used to. And when the when it turns

into a long-term relationship, it's less

stable and satisfying than it used to

be. So marriages, by the way, 62% of

long-term relationships are starting in

the apps today. They are fundamentally

and notably significantly less stable

and have less attraction than

relationships that don't start in the

apps because they're starting literally

in the wrong side of the brain.

Oh, interesting. So that the right wing

the right brain uh appreciation of sort

of humanity this is a separate this is a

person this is a soul this is like a

another human being you know blessed by

God to be sort of like infinitely

valuable and we are like interacting in

space your brain is literally encoding a

different understanding

>> than

this was option five I swept right on or

something like that it's not like you

know you're actually not encountering

the people that your right brain needs.

Why? Because your left brain is

ascertaining who the greatest match is

going to be. And your left brain is

going to get it wrong. Your left brain

gets it wrong. And your right brain

knows. You remember when you met your

wife, which was probably you how old

were you in college when you met your

wife?

>> We were in college.

>> Yeah. And and you met her what at like

what were you doing? You were like

having dinner or something and someone

introduced you.

>> She was on my floor uh in my freshman

dorm,

>> right? Oh, man. Good stuff. And you met

her and what's that? But I'll say this

about it is is uh we used to do things

like in high school we would do things

like go to parties and it was it was

social boot camp because it was weird

and awkward. You had to navigate

incredibly complicated real world

situations like trying to figure out is

my popularity sufficient to be in this

room with these particular people and

how do I navigate this and it was very

difficult and stressful and you would

drive around with your friends and you

got good at it and I always think about

by the time I got to college then I

could function competently

>> in the new social circumstances and like

fraternities and dorms and this or that

>> which allowed me to attract a mate who's

now been you know my wife for 20 years.

So there's like something complex human

experience. And if you were on the apps,

god forbid, you'd know if she is she

look hot in a picture, does she like to

eat Sriracha? Does she want to live in

in in Austin? And does she vote for

Democrats? Or something like that. And

you say, "Okay, I guess I'll go on a

date with her." Right? And she'll be

like, "Is he over 6'3? Does he have a

good lustrous head of hair?" In your

case, boy, is that ever true. And and

the truth is that, you know, this stuff

is is incidental. When I first met my

wife, she didn't speak a word of English

and I didn't speak a word of Spanish and

I was talking to her and I could smell

her and I thought to myself, I don't

know why, but she smells like a

cantaloupe in August. I really, really

like that. Now, what's happening is the

right side of my brain in concert with

the alactory bulb in my brain was saying

something about her major

hystocompatibility complex, which is

telling me something about the the

dissimilarity of our immune systems. And

that was telling me something like

attraction, attraction, attraction,

because if you have babies, they're

going to have really good immune systems

because you're really different than

each other. Thank God for all that, man.

But you're not going to get that on

Hinge.

>> I can't wait to I I would love to hear

what your wedding vows were like. Let me

let me talk about the immune system

mismatch

>> language.

>> I love it. All right, so we're we're

basically out of time here, so let's

just try to bring it down to um All

right, so I want to be concrete. It's

impossible to be too concrete, but

there's a lister of mine. and they're

agreeing with all of this. Like I want

to add the meaning to the equation. This

is what I'm missing. This is brings a

lot of pieces together, but I want to

get concrete like what am I doing in the

next few weeks or in the next few months

just to sort of start moving in the

right direction towards meaning uh while

I'm waiting for my copy of Arthur's

Brook.

>> Yeah. Book number.

>> Yeah. Got it. That's great. Thank you.

Um number one, get clean. Number one is

actually start to do some things to

rebel against the machine that's

actually putting you into the doom loop.

Number one is you should people should

be really angry that they're actually

stuck in this thing. And and and and I

talk about the fact that in all

addictive processes, the number one

instigator of of of

actually recovery is getting just pissed

off. You know, that's what it comes down

to. You know, talk to anybody who's a

former al, you know, really bad

alcoholic. They'll say it's like I got

so mad about what I was doing to myself

and what I was doing to the family and

what I just like no, I'm not going to do

this anymore. You read Dosski's The

Gambler, which he wrote, by the way,

because he was so out of money, that he

was that he actually had to wager

everything he had to get a novel written

in one month so that he had enough money

to pay off his gambling debts. And he

wrote it about a gambler. And the whole

thing is just like he's like basically,

you know, to hell with it all is what he

said at the end of the day. The second

thing is you basically have to

understand how your brain is getting

hooked onto these machines and actually

how it works. And again, I'm not anti-

tech. I'm not anti-phone. I'm not

antisocial media. I've got all of it and

and so do you. You have to understand

how you need to learn to manage your

devices so they don't manage you. And

I've got a bunch of protocols in this

book to actually do that. But it starts

with your methods for device free times.

And you're cited in this book. and and

that's like first hour of the day during

meals last hour of the day and the gold

standard is your phone foyer method by

the way where actually when you're home

you're actually doing this then the the

last part is actually working to get

bored on purpose and so I recommend that

people actually work out without

headphones that people go for walks for

an hour in the morning called the brahma

makerta in vadic wisdom without devices

that they drive in silence a whole bunch

of actual interventions to do that so

that's number one is and clean. Number

two, before the book shows up, because

by the time the book shows up, there's a

whole bunch of cool stuff to actually

do, but everybody can do this, is

actually getting into what the Greeks

call the state of aporeia, which is the

state of puzzlement, by actually

thinking about big questions that don't

have answers and talking about it with

other people. Here's two. Why am I

alive?

Here's another. For what would I give my

life? You know, that's when you were in

college. That's what you were talking

about at 11:30 p.m. after the party when

you met your wife. Now, what are people

doing at 11:30 p.m. after the party?

Zitz zitz zit. Sending themselves right

over to the left side of the brain. This

is what every major religious tradition

has in common. If you're trying to

become a Zen Buddhist monk, you're going

to learn Coins. What's the sound of one

hand clapping? The big questions, the

deep questions, the questions that

matter most in life. That is pure

therapy for the right hemisphere of the

brain. You're not going to find the

answers to the questions and that's not

the point. What you're going to find is

that you put yourself into a position

where meaning starts to find you.

>> All right. Well, this I'm on board with

all this, Arthur. I think like uh the

right brain versus left brain, the

equations, why meaning is lacking. Like

all this stuff resonates with me. A lot

of insights in this book that I hadn't

had before, but helped explain things

I'd noticed, which to me is usually the

mark of a good theoretical framework.

So, to my audience, the book is called

The Meaning of Your Life. Yeah, you need

to go order it. It's gonna definitely

help you with all the things we talk

about here on this show. And Arthur,

it's always a pleasure to have you on

the show. Uh we'll have to have you back

on again soon. But thanks for joining us

today.

>> I love it. Thank you, Kell. Thank you

for your work. It's really helped my

life a lot and a lot of other millions

of other people, too.

>> I appreciate it.

>> Right on.

>> All right. So, there we go, Jesse. That

was my discussion uh with Arthur Brooks.

It's interesting how ideas seemed to

travel in pack. So for the years I was

working on my new book about the deep

life which is coming out next year. It

really felt like it was sort of out of

left field and I was the only one

thinking about this. And now all at once

there's lots of books about the same

general idea. Arthur Brooks is one of

these books. Jim Collins, they just sent

me a new copy of his book that's coming

out that's also about trying to find

more meaning in your life. So I think

it's just in the air right now that

we're in a mode where people are ready

to say let's stop just talking about the

problems and start also talking about

the solutions. Now all of our books do

something different so they all

complement each other but I'm kind of

happy to see that we're entering a

moment in this year of questioning how

do we cultivate a life of purpose as

opposed to being so uh unique like

focused very myopically on just

individual issues that we might want to

solve. So, I guess we call this like the

meaning renaissance. I don't know.

>> Yeah. Did you end up writing your

conclusion yet?

>> No. What I'm doing, uh, I haven't

written the conclusion yet because I

want to see I'm in the first round of

edits for my book, The Deep Life. And

what I've been struggling on all week,

honestly, is more of my personal story

and the introduction, my editor wants,

and I'm pretty uncomfortable writing

about myself. But there are some pretty

deep motivations from like uh my 20s

where I developed a lot of the ideas

like lifestyle ccentric planning that

then play a big role in my theory of the

deep life involving some stuff I went

through back then. So I'm trying to

write about it and God is going slow. I

could write a 30,000word, you know, New

Yorker essay easier than I could write

this sort of 1500 words about like my

own story.

>> But it was also like completely

unanticipated, right? like you didn't

expect it

>> to do that when the editor came back

with those comments.

>> No, I mean I know she was right. I was

just hoping she wouldn't notice. Oh,

>> okay.

>> Yeah. I was like, do I really have to

talk? But she's right. Like

that when you're talking about something

like cultivating a deep life, it is as

personal as it is technical. So, it is

right. But, man, it's really slowing me

down. But, I'm almost there. I'm gonna

try to finish it this afternoon actually

after we record and then move on to like

more normal editing that I'm comfortable

with, which is about shortening stories,

adding stories, clarifying things,

cutting things that don't need to be

there. There is my happy zone. I love

cutting and simplifying, but man, it

doesn't help that I'm lying a lot. So,

like in my story, it's a lot of me in

war zones.

I basically just like took a lot from a

mix of like Sebastian Junger's books

about being embedded in Afghanistan and

uh the Navy Seal Richard Marino's

autobiography of starting Seal Team 6.

So I I kind of mix a lot of that into

there. I guess it maybe it it maybe

readers will notice there's a lot of a

lot of me doing Halo jumps, high

altitude low opening parachute jumps

into terrorist camps, but you know, I

want to keep it

>> keep it real.

>> Keep it real. That's what I say. That's

what we do here. All right, speaking of

keeping it real, you've heard from me

and Arthur, and now it's time to hear

what you have to say. Jesse, it's time

to open our inbox.

And just as a reminder, if you want to

ask a question or share a case story, or

maybe just attempt the prod me into a

ranch, send a note to

podcast@calport.com.

I think we now have a three different

people who read that inbox, so it's your

best chance of actually getting your

information uh in front of me and on the

show. All right, Jesse, what's the first

message we're going to cover today? All

right, first message. Adam recommended

an article for you to read.

>> All right, so what do we got here? This

is from Adam Scott. You think this is

the actor Adam Scott from Severance and

Parks and Recreation?

>> Yes.

>> Let's just assume yes. Uh, look, this is

his words, not mine. Emmy nominated

actor Adam Scott uh essentially sees me

as like one of his biggest inspirations.

I think we can just

assume that's true. All right. What did

Adam Scott have to say? He said, uh,

here's an article that will be quote

right up Cal's alley. All right, so

let's, uh, load up this article I put up

here on the screen that Adam Scott sent

me. It's from Gizmodo. Here's the title.

Tech employees are reportedly being

evaluated by how fast they burn through

LLM tokens. Is that terminology known,

do you think, Jesse? Like, if you hear

me say LLM tokens, you know what that

means? I'm not sure if my audience does.

>> Can you define it? So this is what you

actually uh how you're actually charged

for using something like a language

model. So when you use a large language

model, you give it text as input and the

output is a single token which is either

a word or a part of a word. Right? So

what the language model thinks it's

doing is it thinks the input is from a

real piece of text that already exists

and that it is trying to correctly guess

what word or part of the word comes

next. So how do you get a whole long

response out of it? Well, you have a

computer program like a chatbot for

example would have a computer program

that continually calls the LLM again and

again. So you give it a prompt. It gives

it as input to the LLM. It gets out one

token. It adds that token to the end of

your prompt. Now you have a slightly

longer input. It feeds that into the

LLM. Gets another prompt token. Adds

that to the end of your input. Feeds

that back in. So you're growing out a

response one word or part of a word at a

time. This is called auto reggression

where you keep feeding back your uh your

output back into the input to try to

grow the final output and at some point

the LLM will output a special token that

says that's the end of my answer. Um at

which point then you return that to the

user if you're in like a chatbot

scenario. So every time you produce a

token your input has to go through all

of the layers of the LLM and all of the

hundreds of billions of parameters have

to be involved in multiplications. So

that's the measure of how much

computation is necessary for a

particular response is how many tokens

had to be generated. So it's the same

thing as saying how many uh how many

times do we have to call the LLM. All

right. So when it says tech employees

are being evaluated by how fast they

burn through LM tokens, it means um how

much they're using language models. So

let me read from this article. This

article is actually it's quoting a Kevin

Roose column from the New York Times. So

really we should be reading Kevin's but

this is what the this is what they sent

me. So, uh, I'll read what's actually in

the Gizmodo article. All right. So, it

says, and I'm quoting here, according to

a column by the New York Times, Kevin

Roose, employees at companies, including

Meta and OpenAI, compete on quote,

internal leaderboards that show how many

tokens each worker consumes, end quote.

at Meta in particular and also Shopify.

Roose says volume of AI used has become

a metric that goes into people's

evaluations with managers quote

rewarding workers who make heavy use of

AI tools and chastening those uh who do

not. The resulting numbers in terms of

both tokens and money are absolutely

staggering. One open eye engineer

according to Roose burned through 210

billion tokens which Roose equates to 33

Wikipedias. A Swedish software engineer

claims to Roose that his company spends

more than his salary on claude code

tokens alone. And then because I guess

we have to jinzy everything, he calls

this token maxing. So there we go. Um

what do I feel about this? Well, I think

this is just pseudo productivity laid

bare. It's a a big idea we talked about

in last week's episode, which is why

Emmy nominated actor Adam Scott sent me

this article this week is this idea that

in knowledge work in general, we tend to

use visible activity as a proxy for

useful effort. The busier you are, the

more stuff you're doing, the more

productive we think you are. This is why

we send tons of emails and jump in tons

of meetings, even if that's not actually

producing more of whatever it is that

makes money for our institution. Well,

this is that made even more

quantitative. I don't care what you're

doing. I don't care if it's producing

better software. I don't care if it's

shipping more things that matter faster.

I just want to see that you're making

lots of hits on the LLM because that

means you're doing lots of things. So,