bifrocate or tricate some of the efforts

that these tech bros quite frankly they

just look like they're in shitty shape.

you get, you know, rich or or master of

the universe and you master everything

else, but you can't master your body and

it takes work. And at the same time, you

know, during co you had Elon talking

about meat sacks and how we've got to

get rid of meat sacks. To me, a lot of

the optimization was was spending

enormous amounts of time not on the real

point of life, which was to enjoy

friends and family, which I think you've

really moved towards and talk about in

your book, right? The idea of lack of

isolation.

Hera has a special or a limited series

on CNN which I got to be honest I really

I was I was surprised to the upside. I

went to the premiere in New York and uh

I'll let Cara explain it but first off

maybe just to set the table here Cara

what was the genesis or the motivation

for this? Why choose longevity and why

now and why you? Well, largely you

because I want you to live forever. But

no, no, you're not a small part of it.

You're one of the type of people that I

had been hearing a lot from and well

before you. A lot of the tech guys had

been talking constantly about their

health and bodies, but not their health

in in hacking themselves. Like that was

one of their big topics after they made

money. And they were whether it was

Soylent if you remember um or it was uh

intermittent fasting or various

psychedelic drugs they were always on to

something to sort of optimize and the

word you know that's not a new thing

optimization of health but it sort of

got very loud for me and then you

started to see tech guys like Jeff Bezos

and others try to alter their bodies

right like very significantly

um from where they were Mark Zuckerber

was another one. Uh there's a bunch.

There's just like one after the other I

see someone I'm like who are you? And it

was either through getting very thin or

getting very fit like but fit to the

point of like it was a lot there was a

lot happening and so and then they

talked about this and then Larry Ellison

um invested quite a lot in an institute

anti-aging institute and then all the

others Sam Alman Bezos uh Zuckerberg

they all invested in these health

things. um even more so than it had done

before because other Google and

Microsoft had been there previously. Um,

so it just was interesting to me and at

the same time I was really interested in

seeing what really works, right? Because

there's so much hype online for whatever

blank of the week, right? Essentially,

which you love to like talk about. Um,

and so, so I was really like, what's

real, what's not, and then lastly, all

this stuff around, as you have, you

really inspire GLP-1s, mRNA vaccines,

gene editing. There's some real stuff

happening here. So, there's some reality

and then some ridiculous nonsense. And

it was perfect for me.

>> I was bifrocate or triate some of the

efforts of these tech bros. I would

describe what some of the Google guys or

some of the peptide craze of some of the

tech bros who quite frankly they just

look like they're in shitty shape. I

wouldn't want to see them with their

shirt off. And then what Bezos is doing

and I would say that Bezos is optimizing

for sex. Men hit a midlife crisis. Maybe

they worked very hard or didn't have a

lot of attention from women, feel like

they're running out of kind of runway

and then take human growth hormone as

I'm pretty sure Bezos does and creatine

and in the gym every day or steroids and

get enormous uh believing that that is

part of strength, masculinity, makes

them look makes them more likely to be

attractive to the opposite sex. Did you

discern between the two and notice any

any kind of differences? Yeah, because

there's very serious efforts happening

at the same time, right? But I think

they're very I don't know, cognizant of

mortality in a way that's graspy um as

opposed to someone like Steve Jobs who

actually gave that famous speech about

mortality being important, you know, and

it was such a shift and I could see like

you get, you know, rich or or master of

the universe and you master everything

else, but you can't master your body and

it takes work to do so. And I think you

really inspired me when you said you you

say this a lot, but I think it's a

really cool thing is biology is

undefeated. Um, and I know it's a it's

like three words, but it's kind of says

it all, right? And at the same time, you

know, during COVID, you had Elon talking

about meat sacks and how we've got to

get rid of meat sacks, which is our

which is a a reference to your body. It

was from a it was from a science fiction

radio play um which he is very deep into

science fiction. Um, and they all are in

a way. And you know Ellison was really

the first to fund those fund those

various institutes and everything and

some of them are very good practices

right like some of them the eating the

the the the and stuff like that but it

became more an obsession when you got to

like then you add on online nonsense a

lot of it not all of it um but like all

these influencers just the way they

influence everything else political or

whatever we're giving this advice that

was okay but some of It wasn't and you

know you had a Peter Aia or and I know

you like and Huberman um who's coming

out with a book soon but to me a lot of

the optimization was was spending

enormous amounts of time not on the real

point of life which was to enjoy friends

and family which I think you've really

moved towards and talk about in your

book right the idea of lack of

isolation. Um, and then lastly, the

online stuff, especially around chat

bots, is so unhealthy. And that's

another area I've talked about a lot and

so have you is the isolation of young

men, the the the delletterious mental

effects of a lot of this stuff, which

actually have real health implications.

>> In the first episode, which you screened

for us last Thursday night,

>> you're in number two, just so you know.

Scott and I take a sound.

>> Oh my god. Um, the

>> plat spoiler, he falls asleep.

>> There you go. You interviewed and spent

time with Brian Johnson, who's arguably

one of the most famous I'm going to live

forever guys who sold somebody to

>> pay. Don't die. He's very particular

about his wording.

>> Oh, he's not going to die. And it feels

like it can be reversed. Is trying to

cheat, find a cheat code, if you will,

spends a great deal of money, tries

everything, tracks it pretty

meticulously. You have great intuition

when it comes to people. After spending

time with him, you know, you're raising

young men. What was your take on him?

like how did he get here? Do you what

what were your observations around him

as a person and how that led to him

doing this now?

>> Well, you know, I had him at code in two

you may have been there in 2017. I'm not

sure you were there or not, but one of

my last codes I had him in. He had sold

whatever his company was a was a payment

type of company and he made I think $800

million some enormous amount and he was

in the Mormon church and he had a break

with the church I believe um and then

had some depression problems and he

started studying the brain itself right

and and he was the first person to talk

about the uses of AI and the possible

good and bad elements of AOI um AI and

he was talking about brain cognition. So

he came and gave which I I it was an

admirable speech if you go look at it.

He looked fit but normal I guess and you

know not overboard. Um and he was

talking about the need for you know he

had depression very serious 10-year

depression. He talked about that. Um and

it was a really I remember thinking this

was a wonderful speech and very humble

actually. And then he shows up next as

he calls himself like some, you know,

crazy Patrick Baitman [ __ ]

right? Like narcissistic [ __ ]

That that's his description um of what

people think of him. And it started to

be this um it went from being fit and

healthy and having um trying to deal

with your depression to something

entirely different. And so he decided he

was an experiment of one. And as you I

mean I'm not as all the doctors tell me

that's pointless. It's like we now know

what keeps Brian Johnson alive longer

but not it will not have much

application to the general population.

And so it was narcissistic even though

he denies it. And at the same time I

find him very poignant in a way. I mean

he a lot of he looks very shiny. He's

always like he does his he he measures

his erections. He measures his poop. He

measures everything. He takes all manner

of he he was into rapamy until he wasn't

and very dangerous advice he was giving

to people. Um he was injecting stem

cells in ways you possibly shouldn't. Um

and and then advocating things and

became an influencer which he said he

had to do to get people's attention

which I was like that's incredibly

irresponsible. Um, and at the same time,

some of his stuff is very like olive

oil, great, you know, whole foods,

great, broccoli, great. Like, except he

takes it to the extreme. He takes like 3

hours to eat it or whatever. I forget

what he was saying in the in the video,

but he took a long time to eat, which is

probably healthy, but it seems like the

the hours are ticking down for this guy.

And he's spending a lot of time

measuring his erections, which I don't

know if you do that, Scott, but

>> I guess informally, but in different

ways, like, am I having one or not?

That's my only measurement today is do

they happen? Did he decide to show up

today?

>> You know, then he does the stunts of the

the blood between his father, himself,

and his son, which I find I don't know.

It just sad. I I I don't know. What do

you think? I feel that to be on the

cutting edge of science. So I do PRP.

Did you look at PRP?

>> We did it. Actually, we're going to do

some shoulder cutting, especially around

hair. You know, there's there's some

evidence. And again, we need everything

that I show needs more testing, but they

sell it like it's certainty. Um we we

talked to a woman who was losing her

hair and she had tried she had problems

with current ro gain is I think one of

the more effective things. There's a

couple of other things that are getting

there and they'll solve this problem

eventually, I would guess. Um, but some

people have heart palpitations with

Roane and some of the other stuff and so

she was using PRP in her scalp. There's

a lot of clinics including near your

house that have popped up to do that.

Um, interesting. And then wound um wound

healing, right? The the like a lot of

athletes use it um for joints and things

like that, but again needs more needs

more real studies and stuff. Um, so I

know you thought it was a good thing for

you. You felt better, I guess.

>> Yeah. So, but it's it's it is now I

would say it's on the the conservative

end or on the legitimate end of the

curve. And that is uh I damaged my

shoulders. I to I tore my labrooms and

my orthopedic guy is a guy named uh Dr.

Greg Lingor who's the orthopedic surgeon

or the orthopedic for the New York

Rangers, very credible at the hospital

for special surgery. And essentially

they draw your blood, spin it, take the

platelets, reinject it into the damaged

um the damaged joint. So I didn't do

using it was for aesthetics. I was using

it for healing or for pain. The first

one took away about 30 to 40% of the

pain. And then there was a cumulative

effect. I did three more times. And I

did pull-ups this morning. And if I

talked to you a year ago, I would say I

will never do a pull-up again. I'm just

not capable. So that that had real I

haven't done it aesthetics. I know a

close friend of ours who's a co-host on

this podcast a lot who has great hair

injects it into his scalp and he has

amazing hair.

>> The PRP is we did a whole thing with

this young African-American woman who

suddenly lost her hair during CO. It was

some after effect of having CO and she

really liked it and we showed it being

done like the platelet spinning and

we're going to put it out as a shoulder.

We just didn't have space to put it in

the show. Um, but there's a whole lot of

stuff we filmed like me at a a sober

rape which was cringeworthy. Um, that we

couldn't fit in. But yes, that was

really interesting. PRP was interesting.

And again, there's there's so much stuff

going on in terms of like what you would

have had to inject a steroids, right?

For I had frozen shoulder a million

years ago and that works, but it's not

it doesn't have much efficacy. So yeah,

there's a lot of stuff around joints

right now like all this gels, all this

like, you know, we're going to solve

that problem pretty quickly, but it's

just look, you have PRP and then they

take it for everything, right? Like

that's the thing. It's not an everything

drug. Um the hair stuff is mixed with

people just the way but if you can't use

Roane,

okay, let's try it. And it it seems

relative. They use a lot of cold. Did

you I don't know if they did really cold

put a cold press. what they do is put it

on people's hair, a cold press, and then

they inject your own blood. Um, and they

it's sort of it looks golden. It's quite

beautiful in a lot of ways. Um, when

they do the platelets and so a lot of

these injections, like right now,

peptides, they come from China. They're

not they're they're full of like

impurities and you could hurt yourself,

right, in terms of this without any real

benefits. I'd be happy if they studied

it in a gold standard test and then

let's see like with GLP1s which that was

happening right now. Um but you know a

lot of stuff it's just that it gets

overpromised. This is going to solve

everything like you know take you out on

a take you out to dinner and then tuck

you into bed kind of stuff. Well, let's

talk about that because that seems to be

the craze that's on the other line of

what would be considered, I think,

accepted, as you said, double blind

studies. And that is it feels like I was

at an Easter lunch and all the guys were

talking about their Wolverine

mix of peptides. And that's something I

have not done because it feels to me

like something that not only the

research isn't there, but I don't trust

the supply chain. And there's been

research that a lot of it coming out of

China is is contaminated and you really

don't know what you're getting. And

that's the reason I don't take pills as

much as I enjoy experimenting with

drugs. I never take anything that's not

packaged or pharmaceutical because you

just don't know where you're getting it.

What What were your thoughts or what are

your thoughts on peptides?

>> There's just not enough testing. I mean,

I have what I've done unfortunately

because I think a lot of people say,

"Well, I feel good." Like I get a lot of

It's interesting because a lot of gay

guys were using them, right? like it was

interesting. That's where I get it from.

Um, but I was like, "Okay, but the

latest and including

a a big anchor." I was like, like the

latest tests are on 14 people. Like,

okay. Like, I'm willing to be

open-minded about a lot of this stuff,

but there's no, it's the same thing with

red lights. Like, it's just the testing

has not been sufficient to give to for

the money spent. And in the case of

peptides, you're actually inest, you

know, you're ingesting it into your

body. And that several people have

problems with it. And again, it it

remind you know it's always these

catchalls Scott you know that like oh

this week we're this or this week and

some of them like like a couple things

were like stuck out GLP1s and there's

now like I forget 12% of Americans are

on these things. Well, we're going to

have some answers really soon, right?

And it's looking like it can help

strokes. It look and and real credible

medical doctors are looking at these

things and they're not being rejective

of them. Well, except for RFK. And

interestingly, he's for peptides and

against GLP-1s, which is doesn't make

any sense. Um, but yeah, I think it, you

know, they what people tend to do as

well, it works for me. I'm like, okay,

like that's not a that's not science.

The same thing with Bri Brian and when

he's doing the more esoteric things when

he's doing his dragging like weights, I

don't care. That's fine. I was thinking

something you were talking about like a

lot, especially men, they like the data,

right? They love the like I slept this

long, I did that. And it seems like you

could spend that time with your kid.

Like I know it sounds dumb, but they

there's a lot of obsession with data and

oh I did this and this many and this is

my number and it has has nothing to do

with good health if that makes or peace

of mind which is linked very closely to

good health. When women do sort of

extreme body stuff it's called body

dysmorphia. when men do it is body

hacking, but it's the same thing is that

you're not happy

with what happens, which is you age. And

I think the the the collapsing, and

that's one thing some of these

influencers were good at, the idea of

health span versus lifespan. And that

that's well before I said it. Uh that's

an important thing like how do we do

that would be that would be you know you

know how you've talked about the the

amount of time how and money that is

spent on the last 10 years of someone's

life versus you know get doing something

in advance to do to fix the situation.

So you collapse that you collapse that

delta. The insight you made that I

thought was most puncturing and I think

the most interesting insights are sort

of hiding in plain sight and that is you

hear them and it's obvious yet people

aren't saying it out loud. You said when

I think at some point they asked you

full stop what is the one thing you

should do to live longer and you

answered don't be poor. Say more about

that. Well, I wasn't being, you know,

some people are like, "Oh, Cara's like,

oh, I'm feeling bad about ping." But po

poverty is the single clearest indicator

of longevity because stress around

housing, lack of universal healthcare,

lack of health care of any good, lack of

good food, lack of sleep, you know, in

one point Brian's like, I'm just telling

them, you know, they they can at least

get some sleep. I'm like, do you know

about people that have two jobs, Brian,

and are stressed? Like, they can't get

sleep. And so um you know that usually

and you're also you know near a cancer

you often live in a place that is not as

healthy from not just a climate point of

view but a um you know pollution point

of view. You're often near cancer

clusters. you you've always noticed that

it's always near poor people, right? And

so you when you're poor, you don't have

as many options, including the basics,

diet, um diet, sleep, and exercise, but

you also you cannot avail yourself to

universal health care as much. And rich

people can try. It's really hard even

for people with some means to to get the

right health care in this country. And I

went to uh Korea, which is not a perfect

country by any means, but at the same

time, its longevity numbers are soaring,

especially for women. And you have to

kind of look at what they're doing

there. One of which is 100% universal

healthcare. You and I talk about this

all the time. I mean it's a crime that

we don't have univers a basic level of

as much as you complained about the NIH

or whatever other countries our peer

countries are so much further above us

in healthcare outcomes we're at the

bottom and we spend double as you noted

14 to$15,000 compared to six or seven.

>> What have you since doing this series?

What have you started and stopped doing?

>> I keep trying to break sugar but I

can't. I like sugar but I don't eat as

much sugar. Like I definitely understand

it. I just don't care. Um I enjoy

>> Say more about that. Why is it better?

>> Well, I like sugar in my coffee. I've

been trying to get it out of my co I

have just one I never I I'm not an

addictive personality as you know. I'm

not a drug taker and or stuff. I think

one thing I'm quite aware of is well I

didn't get enough fiber and protein but

a lot of the men are protein maxing in a

ridiculous way. And these advice from

Peter Aia for example is far too much

protein. Um, but I'm eating more fiber,

more protein, more vegetables. Um,

trying to get my protein. I happen to

like steak and burgers. So, I think so

do you. But I'm trying to get less of it

through that through animal protein and

more like I I've started to really like

lentils. I know it sounds crazy, but I

figured out ways to cook them that I

like. Um, I, you know, like an avocado

has enormous amounts of fiber in it. You

don't realize it. And I like avocados.

So, I got more educated about where I

can get that stuff and and and when

during the day, especially stop eating

late at night. I I've started running

again quite a lot. I run about 12 miles

a week now. Um, and I like it and it's

both meditative and and healthy and that

was through doing V2 max, which I I

don't know if you've done that yet, but

just your testing on that and trying to

get that number up

>> test and all that.

>> Yeah. And the and the um the interval

training is something I hadn't really I

I used to run till I like collapsed and

that's really bad. It's just bad. Weight

training I've already done. Strength

training, balance training, stuff like

that is not too much, but strength

training is probably the number one

thing for people who are going to be old

at some point. Um I'm trying to think.

Um sleep I still haven't cracked that. I

have small children so it's not

happening. Um but you know you should

get you don't need you don't need to

obsessively think about sleep but it's

important to get a you know 7 hours of

sleep a night

>> and if there was going to be a public

policy change to that would be most

accreative to health or the health of

the US populace distinct of the the very

wealthy what what would your advice be

on that policy

>> universal healthare one so three things

universal health care for everybody and

then the rich can buy more they always

do right they always get the juicy bits

but universal healthcare. Um, probably a

$25 minimum wage so people can start to

have choices as you you and I talk about

this a lot. Just more money gives you

more choices and it's a healthier

population when you have more, you know,

when people have a standard of living

that's not the the amount of the amount

of stress of being homeless or near

homeless is really quite vast. You know,

combined with lack of healthcare, we're

surprised at these mental health

outcomes. Um I would probably say the

third thing would be real focus on

things like mRNA technology and um real

funding of that along with GLP1s like

those to me the the the only thing we

agree with RFK on is the is the um

processed food industrial complex which

I call the diabetic industrial complex.

Um I think we have to really push back

um on that. Uh so probably real funding

for those two things and and gene

editing and the the one story of the

woman and she was there at the premiere

um who has cickle cell anemia and she'll

never be cured of it. She'll probably

die of it in her 50s after great amounts

of pain when some of these diseases are

probably solvable within the next I mean

right now they kind of are but it's the

cost is so massive um that they don't

get that that's a that's a bigger longer

term problem. We'll be right back after

a quick break.

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curious to see how you respond to this

thesis. just as I would categorize

something else similar to peptides and

that it may have real benefits but it's

become so trendy that there's dangers of

its overuse and I would argue that the

Tik Tok version of peptides is actually

therapy and let me do my land

acknowledgement I think a lot of people

can benefit from therapy I think it's

very good for some people but I think

there's essentially a notion now that

especially when people are talking about

young men that they just need to get

therapy and everybody needs to work on

themselves as opposed to just trying to

figure out a way to get a job and find

relationships. Curious if you looked at

all about what I'll call this surge

almost like it's a prerequisite like you

know having a certain amount of protein

or relationships or sunlight people are

starting to stitch in well you have to

have therapy. Any thoughts on what I

would refer to as this cult of therapy?

>> Um I know you you you have that issue.

Um look I I'm a whatever

>> that's not the only issue

>> and you should seek therapy. Um there I

think more importantly and I think the

science really bears this out very

clearly is um not it's therapy as much

as social interaction right it's the

number one health besides not being poor

and being rich slash being rich the

number one thing that came through was

social social uh connections and and the

negative effects of an AI chatbot etc um

isolation and and we have lo co really

did a number on us in that regard. But

we know church whether it's churches

whether it's sports whether it's

whatever it happens to be friendships

also doing things with in office work

talking to people friction friction with

human beings I think if I had to say the

number one thing I mean diet sleep and

exercise yes but if without the social

interaction none of it matters really

and from from in terms of the scientific

links between that and health it's it's

you know I interviewed the head of the

Harvard happiness study um it's not so

much therapy and and again people should

use it if they think that's important

for them but it is in social

interactions possibly the most important

health intervention we could have and I

went to um I went to a a thing in

Brooklyn which I really loved which was

a bunch of young people had organized

themselves around playing games so

there's friction in games right all

kinds of games I think there was maong

there there was poker uh all manner of

games checkers um and they took this

this sort of basement area in Brooklyn

food hall and they played games all

night and I brought a neuroscientist

with me to explain what was happening to

the people there and they put away their

phones and they socialized and I'm sure

there were a million hookups, you know,

but it was great and everybody was

happy. I know it's you could feel the

happiness. Same thing with this group

and I I think it's called Little Time or

something with time in it. They put you

together with six people that you've

never met and you go bowling or just for

pizza and bowling or skating or

something like that. But and it's not a

sexual thing. It's people you like I

there was an older woman there. There

was a young guy who was just you know he

was at Harvard and he was lonely and it

was I have to say wonderful. I was

nervous cuz I'm like I don't want to you

know I'm as as outgoing as I am. I'm not

right. Uh, I think you would not like

this, but I have to say I enjoyed it.

People I didn't know I'm not going to

see again. Um, and it was lovely. It was

And again, I did this the other night. I

You make fun of me, but I made I bought

these maong lessons and I invited 16

people who who really didn't know each

other. My friends of mine, they know me.

And I to a person, they were like, "That

was great." And I was like, "You have no

idea. You were touching the majong

tiles. There's tactile. There's mind

brain plasticity. Um, so every single

study show the Harvard happiness study

is the famous one, but shows the people

that live longer are people who are

socially active and not staring. You can

stare at a phone a little bit, but

that's a real what they're doing to us

with these AI chat bots is really

problematic as far as I'm concerned,

especially young people, but everybody

>> curious about the distribution or just

you you've obviously you were

journalists.

you know, I would argue the most iconic

tech journalist with the Washington

Post, Wall Street Journal, New York

Times, then you got into podcasting.

You've written several books, and now

you're doing TV. And I always make fun

of TV that it's, you know, it's dying.

And some of that is my insecurity cuz

I've never had a successful series.

>> But why why did you decide to do I mean,

let's be honest, CNN is struggling.

>> Uh broadcast linear TV is struggling.

you are in a medium podcasting that is

growing. Why did you choose to do TV?

And I'd also just on a more meta level,

how would you compare the health of the

different mediums? Because you're kind

of a multi- you're to a certain extent

an example of I think where media is

going and that is someone who is

talented then exploits a bunch of

mediums to create a flywheel. But let's

start there. Why did you choose why did

you choose?

>> You just answered the flywheel.

>> There you go. And why did you choose

CNN? Well, I was I had a contributor

contract with them. I would do it with

whoever. What I did is I went around and

met production companies and I was going

to raise the money myself and possibly

do it on YouTube, possibly do it

wherever. And I was, you know, I

mentioned it to CNN and they paid for

the whole thing. Um, which one of the

things I don't know is how to do video,

right? And so I learned and I feel like

I'd kind of figured it out. Like that

was one area like on their dime to try

it out. And by the way, beautifully

photographed stuff I couldn't do. Um,

and I think worthwhile beautifully

photographed. Actually, I don't think of

it as a broadcast property. We've cut it

up into pieces. Lots of shoulder content

on the CNN app on it will be on

streaming. Um, I'm sure bits bits of it

are going to get on YouTube and social

media and lots of social media around

this. And so I don't see it as a TV

show. I see it as a video product that

will help people that will sort of push

up against the aggressive and often

incorrect stuff that's out there about

health. And so to me, I saw a real lane

like, okay, there's all these sort of

wellness grifters. What if I was the

anti- grifter in wellness? Like, and

people are like the the reaction's been

quite fascinating. People like, oh,

finally, like for the rest of us, kind

of stuff. And so I don't see it as a as

a CNN. You know, you could I could have

done it at MS. I could have done it at

one of the networks. And obviously the

audiences are much smaller over time,

but I see it as I learned how to do this

and now I know. And and I think it does

in some way when you have a whole

package of them together, you really can

tell a story that you can't tell in a

shorter medium. But probably, you know,

you could easily do this on YouTube and

continue it in a way. Um, but you know,

we're doing video now and it's important

to our our thing. So, are we not doing a

television show with Pivot? Are we not?

>> We are. And so, I don't like back in the

day there was Mushroom Post put out put

out had a new media organization. They

put it in Virginia because of union

issues, right? But it was always the new

media group and the old media group, you

know, which was the newspaper. And I was

like, why? Like, it's all media, that

kind of stuff. And I I that's how I look

at it. I don't I I don't think it like a

TV show at all. Although it's fine if it

is, you know, and then you get a certain

population and then you reach to others.

I don't buy into it's over for video for

sure it's not. I just think what's the

difference and I learned how to do it

and now I now I know and if it does well

I I also I'm doing a probably could do a

book on it. I could do an event. I've

today I did a podcast with Eric Toppel

who's not in the thing and then I did a

podcast today with Katie Kurrick who was

very early to online expressions around

cancer um around her husband's death and

my brother who's in the show and Jen

Laroka who's in the show who sort of

blows up a lot of the wellness grifters

and so I did a podcast on it so now I've

got more content for that it just I see

it as a flywheel you know that you

that's how you look at everything right

I mean I think you do

>> to talk about through the lens of being

a mom of young children, what what do

you see as non-negotiable or what do you

make an effort to inject or take out of

their lives in terms of health of

children?

>> Well, not as much. You know, I was

pretty lucky cuz my my older kids kind

of miss the demented part of social

media, right? It wasn't quite it was

like Snapchat and it was pretty harmless

and they didn't get sucked into um a

little bit at the end Instagram, but

they they definitely didn't like it.

your kids are at the dead middle of that

your kids' age, right? And they also co,

you know, they were old enough to be

able to handle social media during CO,

which I think was bad for younger kids.

Um, I suspect I, you know, my kids, my

older kids just watch YouTube as TV, so

I don't find that to be particularly

problematic. I don't find them

obsessively online. And I think they use

it for music and and um Alex loves

watching history stuff videos and that's

great. Um for my young kids, uh you

know, definitely will not allow them to

be on social media. I I use it to watch,

you know, Frozen or or K-pop Demon

Hunters over and over again, but that's

just that's just that. Um I think

probably I would not I I think a lot

about their eating habits now just the

way we do with sunscreen. Like if you

remember, we never use sunscreen. Well,

now everybody uses sunscreen. So I'm

thinking the same thing with food. Like

if I can get them like visiting Korean

kids, what they eat at lunch is really

something. It's it's mind-blowing how

healthy they eat them. And they eat

snacks in Korea. It's just that they

have a base for eating that is very

healthy to start with. So they're aware

and they have a nutritionist in the

school. So, I should probably start more

on the on the vegetables with my kids

because they call them revengeables,

which is not good. They have a bad

relationship with vegetables, my kids.

Um, the other thing is time spent with

the kids, and that's like not staring at

a phone, right? That's I think something

that's hard for all adults to deal with,

not looking at the phone when we're

around our kids. Um, and and sort of

pattern mapping that. But it's re I

mean, look, it's really hard as you

know. um to do so because it's addictive

and it's interesting and we like news

and um so I sp I try to spend real time

with the kids without the phone around a

lot more than I was.

>> Talk about your own experience with

social media and mental health.

>> Well, I got off Twitter early and urged

you to do so as I recall. Um I think

it's delotterious. I'm still on

>> before you.

>> What?

>> Rewriting history. I got off before you

>> anyway. I don't like I don't like I

don't like social media. You're right.

The way I use social media now is to

broadcast our stuff like the different

stuff I do and we do which I think is

fine. It's a marketing vehicle. I don't

go on Twitter though cuz I every time I

go there I'm a [ __ ] So I don't like

that. Um and I forget they half of them

like you and half of them don't. You're

you have you're a much more

>> I I literally I haven't been on since uh

the World Cup. I did an analysis that

two or three of the weekends where I

felt really down, it was inspired by

something someone said about me on

Twitter. So, I'm like, I don't need that

[ __ ] I think he came to the same

conclusion.

>> Yeah, you understood it pretty quickly.

Also, I had that owner attacking me

personally and he attacked you, too, and

then he liked you. Whatever. Um, he's

whatever. He needs to get offline very

clearly. Um, I I use threads now pretty

much. I don't I use Instagram again for

marketing. I like to watch food videos

and hardware videos and it's fine. I

don't find anything wrong. It's very

soothing. Um I read a lot of news online

because I I love news and I always it

looks I would have had a newspaper on my

face before. So it's just the same

difference as far as I can see. Um and I

get a more a wider range of news

actually. I think it's better because I

hear from people I wasn't going to hear

from especially recommended. You

recommend a lot of stuff I end up

reading. Um, so friends recommending

things is a good thing, but I try to

stay off of the I don't do the dunking

thing as less and less every single day.

>> I've stopped that too. Yeah.

>> What you do I think is really healthy

actually. I think about it. This calmed

me. What is the other this made me

>> I found peace in this. Yeah. Things that

things that take my pleasure pleasure

down and make me feel better about the

world.

>> I love when you do that. I think it's

really good for you and I think it's

good for showing people stuff like that.

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We're back with more from Caris Fisher.

I want to segue while we have you

because I I imagine there's a small

portion of of my audience here profit

who hasn't been as exposed to Caris

Swisser. I want to talk to you a little

bit about there's some big news in tech

and that is Meta and this blew me away.

I don't know if you saw this coming.

Meta is projected to surpass Google this

year to become the world's leading

digital advertising business. According

to projections by e-arketer, they

estimate that Meta will surpass Google

in net ad revenue this year, reaching

over 243

billion, a quarter of a trillion

dollars, edging past Google. Um, and

Google's US search ad market share is

expected to fall below 50% this year

amidre increased competition. And Meta's

boost is thanks mostly to Real's AI

recommendation system which boosted um

watch time by more than 30% during the

most recent quarter and Reels is on

track to make over $50 billion. Give us

your thoughts. It really is kind of a

pretty seinal moment, right? There's a

new king. Your thoughts.

>> Well, I think there are two kings,

right? Like it's not as if Google's, you

know, we've known for a long time that

between Google and Facebook, they've

sucked up the entire ad market, right?

and and the attention market more

importantly and I do think one of the

things Facebook does well and Google

never did was they understand

entertainment or what entertainment has

become and Google remember when Google

did its circle thing it was tried to do

social media it was so bad it's cuz the

people there aren't social like they

don't understand it or use it you know I

was like wow these are the least

sociable people making social media and

the one thing Mark Zuckerberg does get

right when he has a great product is

he's he was very smart to see Instagram,

you know, early and take advantage of

it. And then he didn't just buy

Instagram. He did stuff with it, right?

He did understand a good product. And I

think threads is a great product. As

much as I dislike Mark Zuckerberg as a

as a leader, um I think they make a nice

product. It feels safe. It feels fun. It

>> It's bigger than X. Now,

>> it's bigger than X cuz it's actually a

nice product, right? Some of it, they're

going to have problems everywhere you

go. And Instagram, the same thing.

really wonderful useful product in a lot

of ways and again lots of abuses I get

it but overall it's a pretty good

product and so I think he really does

understand

including from Tik Tok the challenge

that was the real challenge he had was

Tik Tok and it seems like Tik Tok is not

quite as re I mean it's still big but

he's managed to figure that he's good at

figuring other people's businesses out

and do almost like Bill Gates right

except I think he does better products

Bill Gates ever did with Windows, you

know. Um, I think they voiced subpar

products on people and I think Mark

creates really quite good products often

by copying. So, it makes sense that his

he will own the advertising market and

Google will own less of it because

what's Google's advantage except that AI

is where Google will have the advantage,

right? In terms of and Mark will too,

but it will help his ad business become

more efficient, right? That's one thing

you talked about that super early when I

wasn't even thinking about it. You

really nailed that. Um I think he's um I

think he's a very good product person in

many ways. Sometimes not always. Um like

the phone was stupid. The he's going

back into it and you made a very good

case as to why. Oh, that was Amazon.

Excuse me. Um I still don't get the

glasses thing or the metaver. He made a

huge like he lost $70 billion on the

metaverse. So it's not that genius. Um,

but I think he gets he gets where it's

going. I'm surprised they haven't bought

a media company. That's the one thing

I'm kind of fascinated why they haven't.

Maybe they don't need to.

>> See, I don't know these people. You do.

I I can read about them and I have

opinions on them, but I don't know them.

You know all of them or nearly all of

them personally and have had

relationships like that spanned decades.

If there was one or two people you'd

think these are the people we we would

like to kind of have in charge or have

outsized roles because they do in your

view have a very strong sense of

patriotism or sense for the well-being

of you know trying to present a tragedy

of the commons and then on the other end

who do you think is I hate to use the

word most dangerous but who you have the

least confidence in who would those

people be? Um, you know, Mark Cuban is

clearly the one I think is or Sachin

Adella, you know, I don't want any of

them in charge, right? Um, I I mean, I

like the stuff they do in previous

worlds, Tim Cook, but now he seems to

have shifted in a weird way. Um, you

know, all the adults, I guess, Reed

Hastings, th those are the kind of

people I think make good products and

are not um and have a sense of their

civic duty, I guess. And each of them

has an interesting thing. I mean, Mark

Cuban's the one who's come the furthest.

Like he was you I don't know if you ever

met him. He was such a jerk. He was such

a like bro, but he kind of and the stuff

he's working on now around um it just he

is very sensible and he doesn't by the

way he talks he talks to the Trump

people. He'll talk to Eli like he's not

like he just wants the best outcome. It

seems

>> highly partisan. Yeah.

>> Right. But he also is there's a line,

right? like there's also like a no

[ __ ] way you're do saying that sir.

Um so I like that and he'll go and wait

and argue with him. So I think I like

him the most personally. Um I think

probably Zuckerberg because I think he's

going to have the most impact. You know

I would say Satundar Pachai who I happen

to like personally. Uh, but I, you know,

and they have YouTube, right? You

between YouTube and Instagram/

Facebook. That's kind of the game,

right? That's the entire game. And Tik

Tok to the side. Um, I've never liked

Bezos ever. I thought he was a obnoxious

and tough guy,

masking it with his dumb laugh, but um,

I've always thought he was sort of take

any advantage he could kind of person.

Um, but I don't think he has as much

impact. I guess he has impact on I Well,

now he I don't think he even has that at

the Washington Post. I don't think he

has as much impact. Um, and of course,

you know, you have to sort of watch what

Larry Ellison's going to do with his

ownership of dying media properties.

That's the thing. They're all dying,

right? So, you wonder how much impact

he'll have. Um, but I would say

Zuckerberg's the most dangerous if I had

to pick, even though Teal is really

quite um, dastardly in many ways. Um,

probably Mark in terms of pure power and

lack of thoughtfulness, I think, and he

he can't be displaced and he's certain

of everything. And I don't mean to say

he's the worst person among them, but

the one with the most power, with the

most carelessness about his power. And I

would say Cuban probably, but he doesn't

control things that are huge, right? He

doesn't really. I mean, he doesn't. I

wish he'd run for president. That would

be great.

>> There's sort of this march of the tech

leader where they start off, everyone

hopes they're they're different and

people have big hopes for them. They

manage their press really well. A lot of

earnest statements about the danger of

the technology and you know, uh, well, I

don't I don't have any ownership in this

company, sir. And then slowly but surely

they turn into a Bond villain. And I

would argue the fastest march down that

path from he will save us to oh no he's

just like everyone else maybe worse is

Sam Alman. It feels like the brand 180

there has happened faster. You know Sam

what what are your thoughts on Sam Sam's

character and his leadership style?

>> Uh you know I've met him when he was 19.

You know, he's always been See, I

unfortunately for me, they're like, "Oh,

he lies." I'm like, "Uh-huh." They all

do. They all do. Like, it's not like I

find that particularly I don't like to

make them into saviors either cuz I

never thought he was a savior. So, I I

come from a more cynical point of view.

It's like, "You're kidding me. He lies

to get what he wants." Well, wow. That's

pretty much Larry Ellison and Mark like

every one of them, right? Like, so I

guess I never saw him as a savior or the

good person. And you know, I would make

fun every time he'd say, "We're here to

save cancer." And he's actually in this

documentary where I challenge him on

this. I was like, "You're here to take

our things." I think I believe that's

what's happening. Um, so probably, you

know, we've talked about whether that

was Google or Netscape, and it's looking

like Netscape. I think you got that 100%

right. Um, but here's the bigger issue.

I don't want any of them to to be the

savior. I don't I don't think our

business leaders should be our saviors.

I think collectively we should, right?

Because a group of people with unlimited

power, unlimited money and growing money

is with no ability to displace them is a

lot worse than a Ted Cruz, right? You

can displace him. It's hard, but he's

elected. So, I just find it I find them

I don't want seven to 10 people in

charge of everything, including getting

back to this thing, health. I don't want

them to make the decisions. I'd like all

of us to be able to via our elected

officials. Um, and you you know, they've

really the whole of tech has painted

itself as bond villains now in this

administration. And now that Trump is

clearly on the some something's going

on, as we've talked about cognitively

with him, um, they're they've they've

backed the wrong horse here, it looks

like, or maybe they didn't. They got

what they wanted and they got their

money and now they'll abandon him.

That's my guess. still back. They'll

back Vance cuz he's their guy.

>> Just as we wrap up here, assuming

unfortunately that you don't live

forever, but you have several more

decades in in you.

>> I'm going to live longer than you.

>> I don't doubt that. It's

>> I want to speak at your funeral. I want

crutch up. I want to crutch up at your

funeral and have some words.

>> Oh, it's going to be a party. I know

what drugs are going to be there. I know

what music I'm going to play. Tom Petty.

>> Oh, good. Did you put it in your I put

it in my um will.

>> Oh, yeah. Tom Petty's. Even the losers

get lucky sometimes. Um, and also the

theme song from The Mission. I think

it's the most beautiful song I've ever

>> Oh, is that That movie is great.

>> It's a beautiful movie.

>> I love that movie. That's Robert Dairo

and Jeremy, right?

>> And Liam Niss. Fast forward 10 years

from now. What boxes?

>> Well, I was just going to say

professionally, but I'll go

professionally and personally. What

boxes are left for you to check? What do

you want to where do you want to be in

10 years having looked back? And are is

there any boxes that are unchecked for

you? No, actually you know I one of the

reasons I do things sometimes is I get a

lot of attention from other repor you

know what I mean as do you from other

academics I'm assuming.

>> Yeah. Not as much as you. You're you're

I will say this you you are polarizing

but everyone respects you respects

slashfears you. Um I'm more you know I'm

more of like a an interesting play thing

that'll probably just fade under the

couch someday. You are seen as singular.

One of the people who don't doesn't like

me very much texted me and they're like

gh you did it again. Like how did you do

it? It's really good. It's a really good

show. Like I wanted to see if I could

make a really good TV show and I did.

Like I have. This is good.

>> I'll grant you that. It's a good show.

>> I got to tell you it's gets better. It

really by the end you're going to weep.

>> You're going to weep. And it has a story

and that's what's important. That was

the critical importance. A journey. Um

no I just I was trying to think what do

I want to mix? I I don't like writing

books. You love writing books. I don't

love it.

>> It's not even that I love it. It's that

it's speaking of health and longevity.

My fear I do a lot physically and if I

get taken down early, it'll be some

genetic time bomb that I have no control

over. But the things I can control, I

control the 99th percentile.

>> The woman in the bathroom with Molly is

how I see it happening. But

>> as far as as far as Hey, don't talk

about my hobbies. Everybody

>> The woman in the bathroom in Tulum with

Molly seems to me I'll be getting a

call. What could go wrong?

What could go wrong? That's why I stay

friends with Para. I call him and say,

"Hey, Pit, need your help. Call back

ASAP."

>> But I manage that stuff really well. But

the thing I'm most fearful of personally

is dementia.

>> And I I don't want to say I have signs

of it, but I just feel like I'm kind of

classic ground zero for it. And I find

that writing well if you do a lot of

research what they find is staying you

know whether it's doing crossword

puzzles ma jang things we have to think

create nuance and organization and I

writing books I don't know about for you

writing books is the hardest thing I do

to flip open your computer and say what

am I going to say about Google that

hasn't been said a million times and not

make it just an reheated magazine

article create a narrative art and have

something that someone will pay 20 or 25

bucks for. It's the hardest thing, at

least that I do. And I've set out to

say, I'm like, I'm going to do one of

these every 18 months until I die or

until a publisher is no longer willing

to publish them. So, for me, it's it is

literally it's literally health. Is

there anything you would just you would

just love to accomplish that, you know,

is it do you want to do a movie? Do you

want to do

>> No, I'm actually in the Devil Worst

Prada, too. So, now I've done that. Um I

love I know it was fun. It was super

fun. I like saying yes to stuff like

that. I know it sounds dumb. I don't do

it for like the hanging. It just was

fun. I just didn't know. I I was

fascinated being on a movie set. That

was interesting to me. I don't think I

want to do it a lot. No.

>> What about personally in 10 years? Where

would you like to be? You're in your

lazy boy.

>> I'm not going to be working. I'm not

working in 10 like I'm 62.

>> You think you'll retire?

>> I will retire by 74 at the latest. At

the latest. I think I'll retire.

>> So, you're not one of these people that

I'll work the rest of my life. No, I'm

gonna retire. I'm gonna um learn. I'm

gonna I like to, you know, I love

history. Like I I was telling Amanda the

other day, this is my wife. Um when I

was in my 20s, there used to be this

free university. Do you remember that?

Do you remember free university? You

used to take courses a lot of you met

other young people doing it. It was a

version of doing it if you didn't go to

bars. And I took two courses that I

loved. One was learning about wine and I

don't drink, but I wanted to understand

it, right? And the other was an art

history class. And I just never took

any. And for the first time I was like,

"Oh, I really did appreci."

>> Yes. That was such a good movie. Anybody

wants to enjoy themselves, watch Rodney

Dangerfield in that movie. Um, I just I

I I'm going to just learn things and

spend times with my my young kids

because they'll be in their teens and

let Amanda work her ass off, you know,

like

>> I'm going to call [ __ ] I can never

see you staying out of the game.

>> I'm not Maybe I'll be on charity boards

or boards of something and irritate

people, but I think I've, you know, one

of the things someone said, "How do you

think your career?" I said, "I think

I've planned my career perfectly." like

actually there's not a lot more I can I

guess writing a fiction thing I don't

really want to write a fiction thing I

can't think of anything I want to make

that anymore and I and I think this I

think making podcasts with you I find it

incredibly satisfying and then I will

stop I I always said this about myself

someday you're you're never going to

hear from me again

>> well we know that's true we just don't

know we just don't have the timeline on

that

>> no but I'll be like at a place up in

Maine where I just sit and read or

whatever and I'm I'll be perfectly satis

satisfied doing. You'd be shocked how

satisfied I will be doing that.

>> I'm not buying it. Anyways, in addition

to being an iconic tech journalist,

mother of four, and and author of

several books,

>> a wonderful friend and business partner,

Caris now has a new series called

Cariser Wants to Live Forever, which is

on CNN on Saturday uh right after Bill

Maher. Caris Swisser, thanks for your

time today.

>> Thank you. And thank you for your

friendship, Scott. That's one of the

things that's kept me young and pretty.