This isn't a story about Mitch

McConnell. It's a story about American

political system that refuses to make

room for the next generation.

>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Cara Swisser.

>> And I'm Scott Galloway.

>> Scott, um, I want to understand why you

took Ed to the game and not me. Explain

where you were. I'm teasing. I don't

>> Well, it's cuz I like Ed more.

>> I figured. Yeah. Yeah. explain where you

were.

>> No interest in World Cup.

>> I would have gone, had I been asked, I

would have considered it. In any case,

>> uh, do you want to go on Wednesday to

Atlanta?

>> No, I don't.

>> Well, okay. So, don't give me then.

>> Do you want to fly me there? Well, I,

you know, last minute I can't get places

like you can. Um, explain to me what you

did to tell people where you were, cuz

you were quite, you look the happiest

I've ever seen you, I have to tell you.

>> I might have been the happiest I've ever

or I've been in a while. Look, I have no

interest in sports. I decided

consciously I used to play a lot of golf

cuz when you're in your 30s and trying

to run a strategy firm and you're

basically renting your brain to old

white guys known as CEOs, you have to

play golf every weekend,

>> right?

>> That's the only Anyways, and I decided

about 20 years ago I was going to pour

all the time I was spending on golf into

fitness. And I played sports in college,

but I I have no interest in professional

sports. I think it's mostly a waste of

time. Every four years I go crazy for

the World Cup. And this one has been the

most special of the three because the

way I describe the World Cup right now

is it's a bunch of cousins who just love

each other and their parents are out of

town and they're doing a sleepover

despite the fact their parents don't get

along.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And I think when you're sitting in that

stadium and I I went through a lot of

logistics and costs to get from Italy to

Hard Rock Stadium in Miami and find

seats,

>> Miami. I didn't know where that was.

Yeah, Miami.

>> It was Miami. It was me, my two friends,

and my youngest. But when you're in that

stadium and 70,000 people are are

singing in harmony, Sweet Caroline,

which is associated with Team England,

and then we all, including English fans,

>> was it Hey Jude,

>> Sweet Caroline, beginning of the game,

Hey Jude at the end in honor of Jude

Bellingham, which is in my opinion the

the man of the tournament. But

>> and then everyone, including the Team

England fans start rowing, which is a

Norwegian signature. Yeah.

>> And when Norwegian Airlines, living up

to their bet, changed their logo to

British Airways.

>> Yeah. It was cute. Yeah.

>> It's like all of the goodwill that is

resident in the world appears to be

bubbling up in the World Cup.

>> Also, good men. I mean, the the

Norwegian guys. I miss I'm sorry they

didn't win cuz I liked his whole act,

his whole manly act.

>> Bellingham. Every time he leaves the

field, he he he honors his mother.

>> Talking about mental health. I mean,

I'll do this I'll do a longer diet tribe

on this next week, but I struggle as a

lot of people do. You know, it's like

healthy masculinity. It's like porn. We

we we know it. We just don't know how to

describe it.

>> What's happening in the World Cup right

now, and you referenced this with the

Knicks, is pretty damn close.

>> Yep. It is. No, 100% same thing.

>> Strength, generosity, understanding how

to lose,

>> you know, talking about mental health,

talking about the privilege,

>> male hugging.

>> Yeah. affection with each other, getting

along with their enemies, you know, it

just

>> it's just cooperation, excellence.

>> You know what I call? I call it I call

it unugly. It's not there's not a bit of

ugliness in it. I have to say I can

>> 100%

>> unugly. There's so much ugliness and

we'll be talking about a lot of that

today. But um I just I it's really

lovely. I mean I just I'm only going to

miss the Norwegian. That's all. I just

think he's what's his name? Harland or

>> Holland?

>> Holland. Yeah. He's amazing. I have to

say he looks like he could kill like

he'd be the person on the on the bad end

of a mace if you were living in the

medieval times, but he actually is just

like so adorable

in in in really lovely ways. Just so

kind, like just a kind large man, which

is really a great juxaposition, I think.

Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time.

So, you're going to the semis and the

finals.

>> I don't know if I can get to the semis.

I'm going to try. I'm trying to see if I

can just work it out logistically

because it's in Atlanta, but I'm going

to the final. But you're talking about

Holland who plays for Man City.

>> Yeah.

>> When you're watching, if you know

anything about football and you're

rooting for the other team, you can't

relax cuz this guy's like a great white

shark.

>> He also hangs around and looks like he's

doing nothing and all of a sudden he

likes

>> Yeah. He looks bored.

>> Yeah. And then he does. He's like a

shark.

>> Fantastic. And we have our own guy on

team England, this enormous guy who was

able to neutralize him. But yeah, it's

just f it's just fantastic. I'm I'm

enjoying it so much.

>> I'm glad. You looked very happy. You

looked very happy.

>> Had a great time. Great time.

>> Relaxed is what I I I perceived it. I

perceived it. Um there's some other not

so happy things going on. We're going to

get to the um the uh attorney general's

12 attorney generals suing uh par for

the against the Paramount merger which

just dropped. We're going to talk later

and I'm going to talk to attorney

general um of California Rob Bont later.

Um, but we first have to start with uh

South Carolina Republican Senator

Lindsey Graham uh died from a tear in

his aorta. Apparently, according to

preliminary findings from the DC medical

examiner, Graham passed away on Saturday

night at age 71. President Trump spoke

to Graham Hours where he died, noting he

said he was tired but wanted to pass the

Save America. Of course, I'm sure he did

not say that. The scrambled to replace

Graham in the Senate and the short-term

and longterm is underway. We're

recording this before the South Carolina

Governor Henry McMaster announces who is

appointed the seat. that's happening in

a few hours. Trump wants it to be

Graham's sister. Uh Nancy Mace says

she's not pursuing an interim

appointment, but would be remiss if she

didn't look at running for the seat.

Secretary, Treasury Secretary Scott

Besson is also reportedly fielding calls

to run. They can't really use House

people because the House is such a thin

margin if they if they pull someone from

the House. Um it was pretty shocking

because everyone was sort of focused on

Mitch McConnell who offered proof of

life on Sunday after weeks of

speculation of his whereabouts and

health. McConnell released a statement

in a photo where he's holding

>> Isn't that proof of near death?

>> Uh, a lot of people don't think that

photo is they think it's AI. I would

tend to agree. I've talked to a lot of

experts. Um, he said a fall led to his

hospitalization. He's in rehab and won't

be returning to the Senate quite yet.

Uh, as you say, biology is undefeated,

but there's still so much sus around

this guy like what's happening with him.

um he's not running for reelection and

they I think he wants to stay around at

least so that uh the um the Democrat

>> Republicans get to appoint as opposed to

the Democratic governor.

>> No, no, the Democratic governor has to

appoint a Republican. The Democratic

governor gets to appoint. It's just has

to be a Republican as they pass this law

that now the Democratic governor might

push back on and say it's uncons

by the way FYI, which would be

something. Um, so I don't think, you

know, it's just what a mess. I mean,

obviously Lindsey Graham was not that

old. 71 is not old. My I talked to Jeff.

I had dinner. I'm in San Francisco with

Jeff last night and he said, you know,

he apparently had some chest pains and

was ignoring them for a little bit and

or had some discomfort and this is

something that just happens. It's what

John Ritter died of. Um, and certainly

if he had had been diagnosed, they could

have done something about it. But a lot

of people, this can kill people really

quickly. I have a lot of thoughts here.

The look, the the internet's gone crazy

with conspiracy theories. So, I have

what technically qualifies as a

conspiracy theory because it's in the

fringe now cuz social media can't make

money off of it. And that is a

71-year-old male who was out of shape

traveling and under constant stress had

a heart attack and died. I I just don't

that's my theory here. And and the

larger point, and I'm going to come back

later in the show to Senator Graham when

we do wins and fails, but the larger

point is that one of the things that

really curses the world right now and

causes chaos, oppression,

authoritarianism

is can be reverse engineered to really

old people that won't leave.

>> 71 old. I mean, I wouldn't necess It is

okay.

>> You could to fly to Ukraine and back and

understand Tik Tok. I mean,

>> for God's sakes, go home.

>> Yeah. He didn't want to come.

>> The average age of the of an American is

38. The average age of our senator is

65. Watching Mitch McConnell freeze up

or talking about a 71-year-old man have

a heart attack as if it was clearly done

by the Russians or the Iranians. This

isn't a story about Mitch McConnell,

>> right? That for people who don't know,

one of the conspiracy theories was

Russia. It's a story about American

political system that refuses to make

room for the next generation.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> If we got rid of tomorrow, if we decided

globally anyone over the age of 70 has

to announce a retirement, oh, you'd get

rid of Netanyahu, you'd get rid of

Putin, you'd get rid of Trump, you'd get

rid of Biden, you'd get rid of these

people on the Supreme Court that aren't

even writing their own briefs anymore.

They're just political ideologues. I

work with the best faculty in the world.

A third of them should be put on an ice

flow. So what? Like 65 you're saying,

right? Because the 65 is for the New

York Times, 65 is for generals, I think.

I'm just curious. I'm curious what

you're

>> 727. Well, I want to find a group of

neurologists. Mitt Mitt Romney had it

perfectly. The guy looks 50 years old.

He looks like an Abberrombian Fitch

model, but he's about to turn 80. And he

cited that by the time you're 80, key

parts of your brain have shrunk by 10 or

15%. We don't need presidents falling

asleep in briefings. Do you remember the

the same I I watched I I get

served the clips because I know it

outraged me of that the CNN show I feel

stupider with Abby Phillips. Basically

the pattern is they figured out they

have a cheat code for massive

viewership. They have essentially the

the chief propagandist for the Trump

administration say something just

ridiculous and then a bunch of off off

Broadway progressives go insane

and they get I think it's the highest

rated show

>> on on CNN. They have Scott Jennings say

something ridiculous, right? And

incendiary and stupid. He said I had a

conversation with him. Scott, you are

lying. The same conversation I bet he

had with Senator McConnell is the

conversation I had with my father in

hospice the last 14 months. And that is

I would say something and my dad didn't

know who I was or where he was. It is so

think it just think about it logically

for God's sakes. all this tumult, all

this doubt. If he managed to, if he

could, if they were capable of pumping

him full of stimulants and just getting

a 15 second voice recording honoring his

friend, Senator Graham's pass.

>> He didn't say anything. They're very

close. That was unusual

>> because clearly he can't. Cara,

>> yeah, the picture was odd. I have to

say, let's discuss the the the uh I

would agree. I would agree. I I I think

the issue is is was astonishing and some

of it funny. I hate to say it was all

the memes and everything around Lindsey

Graham. Obviously, uh there's a lot of

talk about his sexual his sexuality. Um

which was, you know, people are like,

"It's too mean." I'm like, "Oh, just let

the world do what it wants." But the the

the memeing that's going on here and

then the conspiracy theories are really

heavy. Like they're somewhat heavy with

Graham about whether he was killed by

the Russians or poisoned or this and

that. And then um McConnell, forget it.

It's now like open. It's really

fascinating. I'm curious if you think

it's a good thing or a bad thing like

these these these the memeology and

those the the conspiracy theories and

everyone looks at the picture and is

where is his thumb? Is it really an AI?

Is it AI generated? Like it really just

nobody believes anything. Nobody

believes and even the believable stuff

is unbelievable if that makes sense.

Unfortunately, we've attached a profit

incentive to conspiracy theories, which

feels harmless and fun, but it

essentially it attacks our institutions

that there's no one that's believable

anymore and we don't defer to our

institutions. And so I I think it

there's an underlying because the

problem with these conspiracy theories

that oh mRNA vaccines alter your DNA is

that if you see it enough because it's

novel and the algorithms elevate it

beyond its organic reach, you should

have the right to say conspiracy

theories. The issue is should social

media companies that have a profit

incentive to to elevate it beyond its

organic reach, you then normalize

conspiracy theories, they then become

less outrageous and then they become

self-evident.

And that's the problems that a lot of

these fringe theories become normalized

when they ordinarily wouldn't have

because we've attached a profit

incentive to to conspiracy theories.

>> That's a really good point. The broader

point about Mitch McConnell into Senator

Graham is that this isn't about in these

memes, it's not about mocking an aging

man. Aging comes for all of us. The

failure belongs to us, the people and

the institutions that keep insisting

that octogenarians should be making the

highest stakes decisions in the world.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> And leadership in both parties

increasingly resembles the board of a

company that forgot that succession

planning is part of the damn job. And

every CEO is told in their final

responsibility that they need to leave

the company stronger than they found it.

And we fire CEOs who don't build a bench

and announce their retirement at some

point. And in politics, we've somehow

decided the goal is to die with your

hand on the steering wheel and take

people out with you. And experience

matters. Wisdom matters. But so does

energy, cognitive sharpness, the

willingness to pass a game here. It's a

game to keep him in place even if he's

weekend at Bernie's, right? Even if he's

like

>> That's why we need age limits, Cara.

>> That's right. No, I agree. But that's

what's happening here because the the

the the numbers, he's not going to be

able to pass the SE act now because it's

so tight, right? And it's just nothing's

going anywhere. And that's that's what

they're doing here is trying to like

game the system whether not letting

Basher do his job or whatever. And in

the House, the same thing. And you know,

it's all gaming. It's all gaming. And it

doesn't matter if you have to prop up an

old man. Um but and you do start to

believe it. I looked at that picture and

I was like looks funny. He looks like he

had a facelift. They're right. Like but

then is it true or is it not true?

>> I'm going to be clear. I'm part of the

tin foil. I think it's fake.

>> Okay. I I don't know. I don't I I just I

definitely am like huh sus. You know, I

actually like I literally was like

texted Harvey Lean and said the the

republic is up to you to get in that

hotel. I mean that hospital room and get

us a real video of something. I mean, I

can't believe no reporters can figure

this out and we have to rely on Scott

Jennings. I agree.

>> Let me just ask you an honest question.

Let me ask you just a question

>> that would require any semblance of

logic. Given the tomal, given the doubt,

given the

>> given the power, if he just recorded not

even a video, a 10second voice memo,

>> it's gone too far. He's got to be

wheeled out in front of him.

>> It would it would solve so many of his

and the Republican party's problems. And

clearly can't even do that,

>> right? I would agree with you. I think

if they wheeled him out in front of or

in the hospital and he said, "I'm really

sick and I'm trying to get better." And

that would solve it. But they won't do

it. You're right. Because they can't do

it. That's that's exactly right

>> to me. Let me let me just wrap up

because I'm I'm I I do think that if the

world would be such a better place if

Netanyahu, Trump, Ginsburgg, Biden had

been forced to leave at a certain point,

>> right? And the thing about America is we

don't have an age problem. We have an

incentive problem. We reward incumbency,

celebrity, and fundraising over renewal.

And the result is a government that too

often looks like it's being run by

people who remember the Cold War better

than they understand AI.

>> Yeah.

>> And if you if you if you want democracy,

you have to believe in the importance of

turnover. The best leaders don't prove

their greatness by never leaving. They

prove it by building a bench that's

ready to replace them enough. Think

about how much

for God's sakes. What would the world

look like if we had more Zalinski and

I'll even go mom Donnie and we had more

youth for God's sakes.

>> I would agree. And then they could duke

it out, right? Then they could duke it

out. That's

>> let them have at it. Let them have their

conspiracy theories.

>> I agree. Uh speaking I'm going to move

on because we have to go to that. that

Graham Platner has speaking of young

trying to get a young vibrant person and

has officially withdrawn from the main

Senate race following the accusation of

sexual assault among other troubling

revelations from his past which we had

discussed. We did not there was a point

where he said if it goes further than

this then forget it but Democrats have

July to and that's what the allegations

are. Democrats have until July 27th to

name a replacement to challenge

Republican Senator Susan Collins.

Actually the the Democrats chances went

up with Platner coming out cuz he was

declining. The main Democratic party

will hold a convention on July 25th uh

where candidates can make their case to

delegates for a nomination. Let's hear a

clip we got from Axios reporter Holly uh

Otterbine who's been covering the race

and how things stand. Now that Graham

Platner is finally out of the race,

Maine Democrats are scrambling to find a

new nominee by the end of the month. A

whole boatload of candidates have jumped

in, about a half dozen, and most of them

either ran for governor or Senate

earlier this year and lost. One of my

biggest takeaways from the race as it's

been shaping up so far is that Graham

Platner is still having an enormous

influence on the race. Now granted,

nobody wants his endorsement, but a lot

of them, almost all of them to a person,

sound like Graham Platner. One of the

biggest examples um that I can point to

is a man named Dan Cleban. He's a

brewer. He's actually centering his

campaign around voting against Chuck

Schumer uh for majority leader, a

promise to do that. So, I think that

this shows that the main Democratic

candidates have really internalized that

the Democratic base is furious. They're

angry at the economy. They're angry at

Trump. They're angry at their party. And

that that's what this platiner mania was

all about and that in order to win,

that's what they've got to replicate.

>> Oh, that's very smart. Um, what do you

what obviously we were wrong about Grand

Plat. We were we basically Scott and I

said that the ma the main voters should

decide this, but if more came out, it

would be a real problem. That's exactly

what happened in this scenario. How what

what it matters because it is about

control of the Senate and they have a

very good chance of grabbing this seat

if they do it right.

>> Look, I don't as Democrats do, we're

more interested in self flatulation than

actually figuring out how to take

control of the Senate. And I would argue

I would argue the Democrats largely got

it right here when he had a Tottenham

tattoo came to light. As a Jew, I found

that really troubling. Having said that,

a guy in the military dodging IEDs had a

made a mistake and I saw no pattern of

anti-semitism. I wasn't willing to

disqualify him and say he's an

anti-semite cuz I saw I saw an errant

mistake. I didn't see a pattern. Then a

woman said he was physical with her.

Very disturbing. She in the middle of a

campaign was a Republican operative. All

right. I think it was fair to say

there's an asterisk around those that

accusation. When I was on holiday last

week and I heard about this this

additional accusation of rape, I

immediately went to YouTube and watched

it within about 5 seconds. I'm like,

she's telling the truth. He needs to

drop out immediately. I mean, it was

just quite frankly, it was just and he

did. Or he or let me put it this way.

He's still trying to hold on to his

power. Basically, Democrats now are

saying, "How do we find Graham Platiner

minus the rape part?" They're all trying

to find a rough, you know, like a, you

know, an oyster brewer, you know,

whatever.

>> One of them is a logger. I think one's a

logger that does, you know, that drinks

paps blue ribbon or whatever.

>> But now what we're doing is the

following. We're instead of f instead of

focusing our energy on how we actually

hold ourselves to a higher standard and

will exit and offramp people like this.

Again, I'll go back to my favorite show

on CNN. Scott Jennings said they asked

him, "Do you think Platner should have

resigned from the race?" And he said,

"If there's corroborating evidence

around this type of activity, sure you

should resign." Okay. The ultimate

corroboration in our society around

situations that have dramatic gray

areas, context, nuance, you weren't

there, is the following. We put them in

front of 12 people from different

backgrounds, different viewpoints. We

let the prosecution have input into the

w to the jurors. We have the defense.

The president of the United States was

found civily liable for sexual abuse. So

the notion that Democrats are spending

more energy with this weird

self-examination

as opposed to focusing their energy on

how we will actually ticket people who

run a yellow light versus the double

murder homicide of plowing through stop

signs that is the Republican party

including Ken I find comical.

>> Okay. So what do they do here? What? It

looks like they're going to pick one of

these, a logger or a brewer or whoever.

They're going to get one of these

people. What is the move here from from

>> Jackson? I I I'm

in a weird way, all this all this

ridiculousness around holding on to the

land of the dead with McConnell and the

fact that it's not unusual for a

71-year-old man who's out of shape to

drop dead. That's that happens, folks. I

think it's going to help us. I'm more

optimistic about the seat because I

think they're going to find somebody who

has a lot of chest hair, who says the

right thing, who can tap into this

movement. Hopefully, Platner Platner.

Platner started or tapped into this

movement. I actually think he might be

powerful on the campaign trail for the

new person or whoever that is.

>> But you think just keep him out?

>> No, keep him out. I mean, especially and

including his advisers. Did you see that

interview with the two?

>> Oh my god, was that cringe?

>> They're going out. What's that voice

called where they affect the voice?

>> Vocal fry. Vocal fry.

>> Oh my god. I'm like, this is Is this the

is this a Democratic party?

>> At the first when I It's so When I saw

those two, I'm like, oh my god, we're

That's who's running the

Democratic party now.

>> It was just like, oh my, how they just

decided on this guy and didn't do any

betting that looks like any betting

whatsoever. I mean, this guy seems to

have just, you know, at one point a

friend of mine, Lulu Garcia Navaro, had

interviewed him for the New York Times,

and he go she goes, "Is there anything

else?" And he goes, "No." Like, and of

course there was lots else like, and

that was pre the the second part, which

was a lot of people saying he was, you

know, a pig. And then it then there was

a third part. This guy's

>> You're right. You should just exit the

stage. You should just go away right now

and get some help. I think the aging

quite frankly is going to shine a light

on Susan Collins who is 76 and quite

frankly looks 86.

It it I mean enough already.

>> Enough.

>> This is a layup.

>> Yeah.

>> Find some guy.

>> Why don't you go up there? Do you have

chest hair? I don't recall. You don't

have chest hair, do you?

>> Oh my god. Are you kidding? They need to

find a candidate that like that has

big, you know, pieces of more masculine

men in their crap than me.

>> They need to find a dude.

>> This is a problem. The Democratic Party.

>> Well, here's the problem. The Democrat

going to be very honest, Cara.

>> I know that. I agree with you. I agree

with you. I agree with you. It has to be

a guy. [clears throat]

>> Let's be smart, not politically correct.

Find a fisherman who hasn't raped

people.

>> If there's a logger lesbian, [laughter]

find a fish. Find a logger lesbian.

>> That Okay, that might work.

>> A lesbian.

Well, I the fact that the Democrats

cleared the field for Janet Mills, that

to me was a Chuck Schumer up, like

cleared it for an older lady who did a

very good job, but was like was not

palatable to voters because of age and

other issues. That's the problem as

Democrats. There could have been a

really great race here and they didn't.

But let's hope there is one now. Okay,

let's go on a quick break. We come back,

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Scott, we're back. Apple is suing OpenAI

and one of its top executives accusing

company of stealing trade secrets to

develop its own hardware. The lawsuit

filed last Friday claims open a asked

job candidates from Apple to share

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bring device components and prototypes

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everywhere. Apple is asking for a jury

trial and demanding open destroy

proprietary material and pay damages. Uh

this is something else. This is right in

Steve Jobs's playbook, similar when

Apple was filing suits against Android

companies. Um it'll be really

interesting. Also, I'm going to go

through the whole thing. OpenAI's number

two executive. Uh, it's Fiji Simo is

going to have a big role when the

company went public. Just stepped down.

She's leaving for health reasons. Uh,

Elon, of course, is loving this. He

posted about Sam Alman on X. He takes

scamming to a whole new level. He calls

him Scam Alman. To which Sam replied,

"Homeboy, you're the one selling public

market investors on short-term space

data centers." Elon then responded after

stealing an open source AI charity, then

stole all of Apple's phone technology.

Wow. And by the way, SpaceX shares are

really dropping below almost below their

IPO price. So, what a mess.

Let's let's dig into it, Scott. Any of

these many things that are happening

here.

>> Open AI's had I mean, the hits keep on

coming and not

>> a hot mess. It's a hot mess of a

company.

>> I mean, they're being sued every which

way but loose. They've had I think their

head of safety just resigned.

>> They did. Yeah.

>> Um they've shelved their IPO because

it's clear the money furnace.

I mean I I feel and I'm writing a post

on this for the first time I'm like okay

this is 99 and if you remember 99

it was first there was B TOC went we

knew the technology was going to survive

but there wasn't enough demand on the

front end so the pets.com and the Amazon

got got cleared out first or went down

90%. And they're like, "But wait, we

believe in the technology, so it must be

about B2B." And then when that didn't

work, we went to the infrastructure

place. Open AAI and Anthropic have both,

it looks like, delayed their IPOs.

All of a sudden, what looked like a

supply crisis, remember just a few weeks

ago, we were talking about there aren't

enough data centers, there's not enough

energy. All of the front end creating

the demand, the majority of it has

flipped to supply because they weren't

creating enough demand on the front end.

All of a sudden, all of a sudden, XAI

and Meta have said, "Oh, wait. We don't

have the demand we thought on the front

end. Sell our comput. We're going to

flip the supply."

So, I think the cracks are really

beginning to go

>> because then the supply will go down.

And also then you have Alex Karp and

others like Microsoft CEO Sacha Nadella

saying hey these AI companies are

stealing your business. They're

analyzing handing it over to them lets

them become competitors. That that's a

really interesting new wrinkle too is

like they're going to steal your things.

Of course people who have stole things

are telling you they're going to steal

your things. Um so yeah I agree with you

is something is about to like break. I

feel don't you? I mean, it just feels

like very precarious is what I would use

the expression.

>> This is I feel like we're in Q3, Q4 of

99 right now. And just to get back to

the case, Tan is accused of coaching

employees on how to circumvent Apple's

data security policies and encouraging

them to bring confidential

>> um

>> parts to interviews and and save the

goods on that. That's really bad.

>> Oh my god. An engineer Chang allegedly

kept his Apple laptop and exploited a

bug to download files. texting, lol. So

funny. And Apple stated that OpenAI has

had to take unlawful shortcuts while

under mounting pressure to deliver its

first commercial hardware product. So if

this was one of the AI players going

after the other, but when Apple goes

after you and not only that, this is

going to get a lot of attention because

quite frankly, this is going to snare

the strafe is going to hit Johnny IV who

was a bit of a iconic legend there.

explain people. He he's he was mounting

a device company with open AI that then

had its own

>> he started a device company that was

acquired by open AAI for 6.57 billion

the majority of which I think will be

written off. I think that will prove in

terms of write-offs and by I think

Johnny Iv is a genius and like an icon

and deserves all his acolytes that will

go down as arguably

>> the worst acquisition of the last few

years because I think they're going to

have to write off the entire thing and

the interesting thing will be what the

legal remedies will be because it'll

take months or years depending on how

quick OpenAI is to settle. However, it's

going to have an immediate impact on the

business. The device is expected to be

unveiled this year. This gives them the

excuse, Cara, and this is my prediction

for ne for later in the week.

>> The device is never going to happen.

>> Yeah. Same thing with their browser.

Apparently their It was interesting

because remember when this happened,

everyone's like, "Oh, Apple just gave

Open AI a real lift and then the deal

degenerated into nothing like really and

and now accusations of stealing." Um

it's they're such a hot mess. Like every

day every someone leaves, people I think

are quite well regarded leave. I think

the the the the number two executive

really had health issues really indeed

from what I understand from people I

know. But um but it seems like what do

they do now? And of course Elon then

looks like well I just cuz an just

because a scammer tells you you're a

scammer doesn't mean you're not a

scammer.

>> I don't I don't think Elon

>> matters. Yeah. He's just using he's just

piling on right here. I I can tell you

as someone who's

just spent a lot of time in boards

talking about the right type of CEO,

what what people fail to realize is that

there are just very few people in the

world who can go from A to Z. There are

people who can envision a company and

hook up the printer and raise the

initial seed capital and get it to

letter C and D.

>> There's some really talented people who

can take it to institutional rounds and

get it to letter H and get it to scale.

And then there's like a few dozen people

in the world who are able to then do

that and then run a public company. It's

just you're asking someone to be a

dathlete. And the way I would describe

Sam Alman if I were on that board, I

would be saying this guy's a visionary.

I don't think he's an operator. I don't

think he's assessing the financials, the

capital commitments, the risks,

>> the relationship.

There's a lot of, you know,

>> the ability to retain talented people.

In some he quite frankly looks like the

guy's clearly a visionary. The question

is, is he an operator? Steve Jobs was a

visionary and a marketer. Tim Cook was

the operator in the supply chain to go

from 300 billion to three trillion. In

my view, it's I think Sam Alman should

be kicked up to chairman and they should

bring in an operator that understands

how to run this.

>> I think that's exactly what's any name

you can think of.

>> I'm I wanted to ask

>> He's got a lot of burnt He's got a lot

of burnt bridges. I'll tell you that.

They're piling up.

>> You know what the example is? I

apologize for keep interrupting you. It

was it's going from Travis Kalanick to

Darra Kasra Shahi. They need a Daras.

>> Dar Kasra Shahi. They really do cuz then

they could clean it up and you know cuz

Travis is a genius and an innovator.

>> Just wasn't the right guy for the

company at the time

>> and he's also a terrible person.

>> Who do you think?

>> Um I'd have to think really hard.

There's there are several there are the

thing is you got to keep it exciting

because you know your competition is Dar

Daario, right? who seems to have some

skills, more skills than Sam does on

moving it forward, right? So, um, you

have that's who your competition is. But

you're right, D is D that a kind of a DA

personality is like that and and there's

not many. I suppose Brett Taylor maybe.

I don't know. Uh,

>> that's an interesting one. That's a

great one, actually.

>> Yeah. Um, I'd have to really think. I'd

have to really think. There are several.

There are several. Um, you know, had she

been had she lived, Susan Wajiski would

have been on the top of my list for

that. Um, I can't think of a whole lot

of people though. I just can't. I just

can't. I mean, they're going to have to

do something. But is this board strong

enough to do it? That's the thing. Or

are they going to stick with Sam? But

he's definitely created all, you know,

and him, by the way, them tweeting back

and forth. They look like He

just walked into Elon's trap because

Elon, everyone thinks Elon's a villain

and an And so Sam by fighting

with him is it's a mistake. And I like

to Homeboy and I agree with him about

the short-term data centers. Most people

think it's kind of ridiculous,

>> but you walk into everyone. It's already

built in that Elon's an And so

you just become an at the same

time. Anyway, we'll see what happens

here. I think you're right. I think he's

they're going to have to replace him. I

do. I agree with you. All right, let's

go on a quick break. When we come back,

California and 11 other states file a

suit to block the Paramount uh Warner

Brothers merger. I'll be talking to

California Attorney General Rob Bont all

about it.

>> This is advertiser content from Harvey

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[music]

We're back. California Attorney General

Rob Bont along with Attorneys General, I

think that's right, from 11 other

states, a dozen, just filed a lawsuit to

block Paramount's 110

uh uh billion dollar merger with Warner

Brothers Discovery. The suit alleges the

merger will help reduce competition,

creating higher prices, less content,

and hurt movie theater cable

distributors. Is quite a narrow lawsuit.

Bont and his fellow AGs are asking

Paramount and Warner not to close a deal

while the case moves through the courts.

So, one couple things we want to talk

about here. It's very narrow from what I

understand talking to people. Um there's

um there's there's a lot of um feeling

at Paramount. They I don't think they

thought it was going to be a dozen of

these things. I thought they it I think

the the negotiations didn't go very well

between Bont and Paramount. They there

was this weird threatening to leave

California, which I think is nonsense.

Um, so, uh, so just give me your quick

thoughts before I get out of here and

talk to California Attorney General Rob

Bont about it.

>> I'm mixed here, Carrick, because I can

see why when Republicans in the Trump

administration are happy to weaponize

the courts and the legal system to

intimidate the press. I I kind of

applaud AGs

in DAS in blue states pushing back and

say, "All right, girlfriend. Two can

play at this game." Because quite

frankly, I don't think there's a legal

basis to to to claim that it's monopoly

power. I think on a pure economic

competitive level when you're facing

when you're facing YouTube and these

different platforms, I don't think it's

a monopoly. So, but at the same time,

what's good for the goose, right? I

would just go through market share and

say in terms of viewership time, you

know, YouTube's at 12%, Netflix is at

nine. the combined I I just failed to

see how this triggers any sort of legal

review. What is the legal justification

for blocking this market?

>> It becomes 86% of the market is shared

by four companies only versus six to

seven or whatever. It creates you know

that's this is the idea that it's

creates a smaller group of buyers, a

smaller group of distributors and um

that's essentially it. And then it

raised and then theater owners will have

to raise the prices. A lot of actors are

kind of upset. Blah. I think he has to

do this. I think you're right. They have

to show a little teeth here.

>> The argument on the ground and I believe

this. I believe that tens of thousands

of creative jobs are going to go away. I

think there's going to be a scream let

out by the creative community that they

don't even know what happened to them if

this merger goes through because I think

the only way to justify $12 billion

acquisition price is to find quote

unquote efficiencies through AI. and

they're going to move harder at this

than anyone despite their commitment to

produce more movies or what have you.

The problem is is that the argument that

there's too much concentration is like,

well, folks, we're trying to compete

with the people you say are too powerful

and that if you don't let us merge, all

you're do is all you're doing is

strengthening numbers one, two, and

three.

>> Right. Yeah. I think that's what

awesome. I just got a note from someone

at Paramount that said it's a silly and

laughable market definition. That's what

that's their answer, I guess. I don't

>> I don't think I think this gets swatted

away, but at the same time, if you

there's such a huge ticking fee of like

a half a billion dollars a month

continues to go on,

>> that they have leverage,

>> although they may they may be able to

extract something.

>> Yeah, especially if L if Britain also

does it. It'll definitely slow them

down. I I think it's going to close. I

just I I'm not sure what, you know,

we'll see where it goes, but they

definitely have they've dirtied up

Paramount quite a bit with actors,

talent, and I think the general public,

and I I don't think the CBS stuff has

helped. I think it's a minor part of it,

but it's gotten an outsized attention.

Um, and I think they really I I think

they may and having the dinner with

Trump thing wasn't a good look. You

know, bringing reporters there. I've

told him this. Um, but we'll see. We'll

see where it goes and we'll see what

Pont says. So, I'll talk to him now.

I'll also note I extended an offer for

an interview with Paramount's Council.

California Attorney General Rob Vont is

with me now. He's in the middle of quite

a busy day. Rob, how's it going?

[laughter]

[gasps]

>> A good busy day. Uh, it's going well. We

we filed our lawsuit today and we're

excited.

>> Yeah. So, nice backdrop. You did it in

front of the Hollywood sign. Can you I

just want to know how you thought of

It's very well coordinated online.

You've got a lot of all the other AGs.

You've got a number of senators, etc. uh

sort of talking it up. Talk a little bit

about why how why you were positioning

it.

>> Yeah, I mean we we have lined up and

synchronized the different attorneys

general to talk about the lawsuit that

we're collectively bringing. There's

there's 12 of us in California plus 11

others. Some of the other statements

that you're seeing from, you know,

Senator Murphy, Senator Warren, that's

just organic. Uh we we we haven't spoken

to them. They they're watching this

issue and they have a viewpoint and

they're expressing it and we appreciate

the support that they're showing. Uh

we're focused on the law and the facts

here and this proposed merger between uh

Paramount and Warner Brothers violates

section 7 of the Clayton Act and we

think that the market concentration and

the three markets that we've named um if

there it's um presumptively unlawful and

and yeah right yeah distribution of uh

wide release film uh films and and also

of blockbusters and then um licensing of

cable channels. So, we think we got

three three clear markets where they

violate the law.

>> So, let's talk about the goals here

because it's much narrower. You could

have gone a lot of different directions

here uh in this in this lawsuit. And

it's it's quite narrow actually, but um

what do you hope to get out of this

lawsuit and how did it come to this?

What's the goal?

>> The goal based on the lawsuit is to

block the merger. If there is some sort

of discussion that that happens and you

know, we're not inviting it or shutting

the door on it. It's up to Paramount or

Warner Brothers whether they want it. We

we will always engage in good faith. We

will listen. But we've expressed our

concerns very clearly chapter in verse

and you know nearly 40page complaint

which talks about the markets and talks

about the the impacts of the market

concentration and how audiences will be

harmed and workers will be harmed and

quality will erode and output will

decline. And we we think we set it forth

and if they have a something that they

want to recommend or suggest to address

our concerns, we will listen. But right

now, uh, we we're asking to block the

merger. We're asking them to agree to

not close the merger, consummate the

merger while we're in litigation. If

they don't agree, we're going to file a

temporary restraining order. And we

think

>> you haven't done that yet for people to

understand. If they don't agree to slow

it down, correct? Is that correct?

>> But but we need an answer from them

today, and if [clears throat] they don't

agree today, we're we're filing later

today.

>> It doesn't sound like they're going to

agree today. That's my impression. Um,

[laughter] they've released a statement.

They're also talking to people. Um uh

say I'm pretend I'm Min Del Rheem, their

general counsel. Um

he he they let me say what they said on

the record. Um Paramount fired back

saying in a statement, "The practical

effect of this lawsuit is to shield

those dominant streaming platforms like

Netflix and technology companies from

much needed competition." Obviously

Netflix, you were noting Disney in here

and Sony and Universal. Netflix and

others are not in this. There's no

mention of them. Explain why. answer

what he's saying right here.

>> He's he's he's talking about something

that's not part of the lawsuit. He's

talking about the streaming markets. We

haven't brought a lawsuit based on the

streaming markets. I I know that's where

they think they can win the PR battle,

but that has nothing to do with the the

lawsuit and the legal case that we've

brought. We can, as you mentioned, you

know, these are highly diversified

companies. We considered multiple

markets before

deciding on the three that we've

challenged. And he is trying to rebut

something we're not even saying. We're

we're we haven't challenged the

streaming markets, but I think they like

that, you know, that you know, we're the

we're smaller than than Netflix. Netflix

is the bad guy here. Don't look at us. I

think they like the deflection in that

and I understand that from a PR

perspective, but they are completely

missing the mark from a legal

perspective.

>> Included Netflix in here. Let's just

address it because one I mean one of the

reactions I got was it's a silly and

laughable market definition. Why aren't

they included? Because I mean we looked

at the we looked at streaming and we

looked at the impacts and uh we thought

we had a better case with the three

markets that we chose. And so you know

when when we bring a case we sort of try

to envision all the aspects of it going

to court with an expert uh the the the

the likely defenses and rebuttals from

the defendants. You know what the uh you

know what the the the HHI the index on

market concentration shows. um you know

how it measures up under you know US

versus Philadelphia and and the market

share that's an appropriate way to look

at it and we did that and landed uh with

the three markets that we've that we set

forth in the

>> even if you can imagine that all these

markets are now merged with each other I

think that's what they're going that

it's all it's all the same thing

essentially and you are saying it is not

all the same thing in other words

>> I think even Hollywood and the

entertainment industry don't think

they're all the same thing I think they

treat blockbusters differently than wide

release films you know wide I mean these

films are different than um you know

select release or different than

streaming. They're they're different.

You know I think some people maybe some

people see overlap maybe some people um

see some um some similarities but the

market definition as you know is very

important these in these cases and we

think we think we think we've landed on

three very clear markets uh where

antitrust law has been violated and we

we think they'll they'll hold up to

scrutiny. So what you have to do is you

have to prove the likelihood to succeed

on its merits to get an injunction, a

temporary restraining order essentially.

Um how where it goes to the Cal Northern

California court. Are you do you feel

you are you have the likelihood to see

merits with this more narrow group of of

issues you're bringing up?

>> Yeah. You know, we we we think this case

is very strong. We think that just like

Nextar Tegna, you know, we went in, we

saw it and and secured received a

preliminary injunction basically based

on the market concentration.

>> Right. You can either get a preliminary

injunction or a TTRO. Correct. That's

correct. Right.

>> And we I think we'll probably file them

both at the same time, but we we want

immediate relief, immediate blockage of

of the merger. And we think that with

these three markets as defined, we think

they're appropriate markets to define as

we've defined them. And we think, you

know, based on the the the the index

that that courts rely on for market

concentration, they they are already um

presumptively illegal. So we think we

have a very good chance.

>> There's some reporting lawyers at the

Justice Department felt that too,

correct? On some of this stuff, but

there are other jurisdictions that

aren't that much as much under the sway

of this particular company. Um, how do

you look at theirs sort of passing like

a lot of these countries have passed on

not Britain but others have others

across the world have? I

>> I I think it's appropriate for each

regulator within their jurisdiction and

you know their geographic market to

consider the impacts and and their

geographic market is different than

ours. Um maybe the product market is is

similar but our ours is different. And

so this suggestion I think that

Paramount Warner Brothers and and and

and they tried to advance this in their

statement today is that hey all these

other regula uh regulators approved us

what what gives here? Well it's a

different market with different impacts.

It's a different analysis.

>> That's what they were saying. So

>> what the What the Rob? So, so

when you think about the the the

response is what and not what do you

want, but there was some talk that you

wanted Paramount to divest CNN that you

said that and then you'd bless the deal.

You've denied these reports, but what do

you think of the idea?

>> Speaking for a friend. Speaking for a

friend. Yeah, I'm

>> Yeah, I you know, I I never said that

and it was interesting that that was

reported. You know, it's come to a place

in this, you know, I guess it's high

stakes. There's a lot of pressure.

there's a lot of um you know gossip just

straight out lies that are being

advanced and maybe that's part of a PR

campaign. Maybe it's people you know

just want to be part of something that

they they they don't have in inside

knowledge on um but you know that

definitely could be part of a of an

outcome here. Um I I I would say um

perhaps um it could be necessary but

it's it wouldn't be sufficient um

>> because you're talking about theaters,

right? because it's not CN. Yeah.

>> Is not CNN at all. And and and so, you

know, when when you get into settlement

discussions, should that ever happen

here, um you can be creative. There can

be different aspects and components to

it. Um but we're looking right now just

at the litigation and find them. Now,

there's a there's also a report, as you

know, and I know you addressed it in

front of the Hollywood sign that David

Ellison is considering moving

Paramount's headquarters uh to um and

and the allocating the country's the

company's $30 billion in plan spending

if reallocating if the lawsuit goes

through. Personally, I don't believe I

think I taken the under on this one, but

how do you respond to that? Do you

believe that could happen? Are you

worried about it? I mean, it it feels

like a

potential monopolist trying to bully a

state that is doing its job to regulate

them. And it feels like a lastditch, you

know, desperate effort to try to

blackmail California and 11 other states

into not enforcing antitrust law into

allowing an illegal proposed merger to

go through. And that's not going to

happen. It didn't work. We're not doing

that. uh we have filed our complaint in

court and um you know I I think they're

they're they're on overdrive on their PR

and what they're trying to suggest and

you know the statement that you were

reading from it it it feels like you

know 1984 up is down black is white you

know this is great for workers listen to

the workers what are they saying they're

saying this is terrible for workers but

you know I I guess we should listen to

David Ellison and Paramount Warner

Brothers and believe that it's good for

workers and good for competition they

say it's good for all the things it's

bad for. It's bad for workers. It's bad

for prices. It's bad for audiences. It's

bad for content creativity.

>> There's certainly a lot of Hollywood

people that are not for this thing. They

weren't for the Netflix thing either, by

the way. Even more so, I would say.

Where did you you the workers were the

ones you were had been hearing from the

most? Who who had you been hearing from

the the most in that in those groups?

The distributors, the theaters, the

actors, uh directors, writers. What is

there was there one that had more weight

than others?

>> No. uh but their collective voice was so

strong and so unanimous. We talked to

writers, we talked to producers, we

talked to directors, we talked to

actors, we talked to the crew, you know,

IATSI u I attended hearings. I I I I you

know and I I honestly I was inspired by

the courage of of actors who stood to

lose a lot and and people who work in

this space who could be punished,

blacklisted, who could be prevented from

having a job and they they spoke on

principle uh you with courage and

conviction and that meant a lot to me. I

I I didn't really hear from anyone who

thought the deal was good for the

entertainment industry except for David

Ellison and you know and Paramount and

Warner Brothers those who are

stakeholders would be affected

>> to be fair to be fair there are some

studio studio people that are like look

it's getting hard against the tech

people and more a bigger stronger series

of studios might be better to hold up in

in the current environment. There are

people who do say that

>> that hasn't been strongly expressed to

us, but I I I accept that there's some

outside of Paramount Warner Brothers who

support the the merger.

>> Two more things. This is 12 states are

all Democratic states. Um a lot of some

people think it's a long putt you're

doing here. At the same time, others say

this is what Scott Galler was saying.

It's a good that you're pointing this

out, that you're bringing it up, that

you're punching back in some fashion.

Um, do you think it's

should you have tried to get more a

Republican maybe a GOP le?

You don't want it to look like a

Democratic attack necessarily, but it's

also a sign of things to come uh in the

upcoming months if especially if the um

Republicans lose the House, the control

of the House.

>> The door's not closed on on additional

states joining, Democratic or

Republican. And I uh was grateful that

our ticket master live nation case was

very much bipartisan. Our next Art Tegna

case is bipartisan. Yeah.

>> Mhm.

>> This one could be maybe should be. I

think you have to ask the Republican

states while why why they joined Ticket

Master Live Nation or the ones that

joined Next Art Tegna are feeling they

shouldn't join this one. Um on on just

law and facts, I don't think there's a

principal, legal, or factual reason not

to. So I I I don't know why they

wouldn't. And so maybe they're just

waiting. Maybe they don't want to be

first through the door, but maybe we'll

join later. Um that happened in Next Art

Tegna, you know, the states that we

started with on the filing date. Uh it

it grew from from from then. And this

should be nonpartisan, bipartisan,

whatever you want to call it. This is

just making sure that the markets are

free and fair, not rigged and that

there's competition.

>> Yeah. Maybe Arkansas wants to become

Hollywood. I don't know. Um in some

fashion,

>> there are big states, by the way. New

York's in there, too.

You got to always take notice of New

York and California and um you know some

other states can you have I think they

didn't think Washington state was going

to join. That's my impression.

>> Um but they did. In fact they did. All

right. Uh we we're almost to one other

question. Of course, one of the things

they're raising is you want to be

governor of California. You need to you

need to do this. Would you address that

issue? um that you this is good for you

for Rob Bont himself um to sort of punch

it punch it not not just the Ellison's

but the Trump admin you know it has they

have the links they've been having a lot

of dinner together um can you address

that please

>> sure this is good for the law it's good

for the rule of law it's good for

competition it's good for consumers who

are screaming that affordability is

their biggest challenge and they don't

want prices to go up at movie theaters

or on their cable bills um this is a

breadandbut issue about how our markets

are supposed to work. They're supposed

to be free, fair with competition.

Prices are supposed to stay reasonable.

Choice is supposed to stay high and

competition high, quality high. And so

maybe those things are good uh for me

personally, maybe they're bad for me

personally. Um I have no idea, but I'm

doing what I think is right. I'm doing

it based on principle, based on the law,

based on the facts. And I am not running

for governor. I am running uh for

re-election as California Attorney

General. I'll be honored if my bosses,

the voters of California, um, voted for

me, but um, maybe some of them will hate

this uh, action and maybe some will love

it and maybe some will be in between. I

have no idea. But I'm doing it because

it's the right thing to do, not based on

any, uh, political outcome or

consequence from it.

>> Okay. All right. Uh, thank you so much,

uh, uh, California Attorney General

Bont. I really appreciate it. And, uh,

I'll be watching to see what happens

next, um, in the next 24 hours, I guess.

All right. Thanks, Rob. Good to see you

again. Thanks for having me. Good to see

you.

>> Take care.

>> All right, one more quick break. We'll

be back for wins and fails.

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>> Okay, Scott, welcome back. Let's hear

some wins and fails. You go first. Well,

I'll speak more about this, but when I

was in

Miami and at the Hard Rock Stadium

watching Team England play Norway and

Norwegian fans started singing with the

English fans, Sweet Caroline and then

English fans started doing that rowing

motion. It just gave me so much hope I

was so desperate for. I just it when you

hear 70,000 people who come together

like kids who love each other but their

parents have been arguing it just that

collective humanity and the athleticism.

I really do believe that the World Cup

has tapped into this need to remind each

other that we have more that we share

than differences. I just that was such a

um you know I've been to I don't care

about sports and then every four years I

get really into it because my kids are

into it. I took my son to Moscow and St.

Petersburg 8 years ago. We went to Qar

four years ago. This is by far the best

because this is this is the

encapsulation of something wonderful.

And that wonderful thing is that people

around the world feel especially in the

west and in democracies feel a sense of

camaraderie and comety of man. And our

leaders have been getting in the way of

that and they've been dividing us and

we're actually not that divided. were

being divided and that game just

reminded me of it and it just

>> it is a contrast to the like the

political stuff because the minute

Lindsey Graham dies uh Trump was like

taking advantage of it like so gross

like you know what I mean like it's a

it's a it's a such a contrast.

>> Well, you know what's made this World

Cup great quite frankly is none of these

leaders are anywhere near it.

That's right.

>> Thank you for staying out of it.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank you for staying out of it. Just

don't

>> don't poison it. And in the moment that

Trump did enter it, it kind of

everything up for the American team in

my opinion. Anyways, that's my win. My

fail is a little bit I I've thought a

lot about this and I really want to get

your viewpoint including if it's push

back. [gasps]

When I was at UCLA,

I didn't think I knew a gay person. And

what I found out, I was at UCLA at a

pivotal time for gay rights or society

as it relates to how it how it feels

about the gay community. And that is

within two years of graduating, I found

out not only did I know gay people, but

my roommates, my best friend, and

several of my fraternity brothers were

gay. And the reality was from 1982 to

1987 at UCLA and in America, you were

not allowed to be gay.

You just and those of us who are

heterosexual never really and still

don't understand the

the shame that America was putting on

gay people. And I know you felt that.

>> I definitely did. Yeah.

>> And and can relate to this. And then the

way we traed treated people who got this

plague, [snorts]

the shame, the shameful way that we

treated this community when they were at

their,

>> you know, these young men, mostly young

men who were at their most vulnerable.

And so I empathize

with

with men and I haven't walked in those

shoes that were closeted.

But the reality is I think Senator

Graham deserves to be lauded for his

service,

his ability to get deals done. He was

wellliked,

but I don't think his legacy is going to

be kind.

>> No, I don't either.

>> And and this is where I go with this.

And I and I and I'm really like reticent

to talk about this way because I do

believe you need to heir on the side of

positive and grace when someone passes.

But my belief is that Senator Graham's

uh hypocrisy will be his legacy. And his

hypocrisy isn't about being gay. It's

quietly benefiting from the courage of

people who risked everything to secure

equal rights

>> and then turning around and arguing

those rights should be denied to others

which

>> and then affiliating with people who are

pulling it affiliating with people who

are pulling those rights

>> and and you can relate to this because

you are one of the people here. Every

freedom the LGBTQ community enjoys today

and that Senator Graham enjoyed was

because someone else paid the price.

>> I would agree.

>> People lost jobs.

>> Yeah. were rejected by their families.

You were turned away by our security

apparatus. They were arrested. They were

beaten. They were ostracized. And in

some cases,

>> people were killed for the simple act of

living honestly. And they accepted those

risks such that the next generation

wouldn't have to endure that

>> Yep.

>> And to enjoy the protection their

courage created while publicly

undermining it.

>> Yeah.

>> Isn't just inconsistent.

>> I would agree. It's a profound failure

of gratitude and in integrity. What it

says is at the end of the day it says I

deserve these freedoms but people like

me don't.

>> Right. I let me tell you I just I I

should I back in the day back in those

days it was cla very much. I saw Graham

at gay bars. I did when I was young. He

was with another congressman um very

frequently. Um and nobody said anything

at the time like everyone knew who he

was. Uh there were a lot of people like

that. It wasn't just him. Especially in

the Reagan administration, there were a

bunch of gays who were doing anti-gay

things. I was on the fence about outing

people back then, back in the day. Um

and some the only time I would say when

they were doing things that were

specifically anti-gay, that was okay.

Otherwise, kind of a live and let live

kind of person. That said, by this year

20 in the year of our Lord 2026, it was

ridiculous. And I he was he was

affiliating with people who were hurting

gay people. And I would agree with you.

>> He could have been a hero.

>> He could have been a hero. And he just

was he was ashamed of himself, but from

what I can see. Um, and I had heard

about it, of course, as most gay people

sort of there's sort of a whisper kind

of thing that happens with gay people.

Um, but it was it was enough. It was

absolutely enough the way he

was. I think more to the point was sort

of this raora fish personality he had

and people you know that he was close to

John McCain and then he turn and very

kind very close to the Biden's and then

completely turned on them just to attach

himself to a stronger man which in this

case was Trump and that may have been a

real conversion by him but he was

constantly

um

pretzling himself in really

uncomfortable and I hate to say that

unnatural acts all the time and um I

thought it was pretty gross. I think it

was and I think he could have been a a

great one. Especially the stuff he said

about Trump initially was just like JD

Vance was absolutely accurate. Um but he

decided power was more important than

than principles. And that's what

>> this even goes there's a lot of people

who haven't acquitted themselves well in

order to be close to the flame of power.

>> Yeah, I get it.

>> What I think this goes deeper and that

is I think a person's character should

be measured by their willingness to bear

the cost of their convictions.

Otherwise, they're just opinions. And

when you ask, as Senator Graham did,

others to carry that burden while hiding

behind the rights they won for you,

you've outsourced courage and privatized

the benefits. And history remembers the

people who stood up when it was

dangerous, not those who waited until it

was safe and then tried to pull up the

ladder behind,

>> including straight people who went out.

Like, I'll never I'll never have a

nuisance because of what he did around

marriage. I'm sorry. He took a he took a

stand that was hurtful to that hurt him

badly at that time. And so yes, things

cost things and he did not pay any

prices and he was constantly angling for

power and that and the reason he was

closeted is so he could be more

powerful. Right. So it all had to do

with his desperate need for power and it

is a bad legacy for someone who you had

a sense could have been greater. Right.

Anyway, you're right. I think you know

there's nothing controversial.

>> I think his legacy is the following. The

the crulest the crulest part about this

is not just betraying yourself. You're

betraying the people who absorb the

blows so you could live a safer life,

which he did and then paid the price. He

collected the dividend and then voted to

cut cut off cut it off for the next

generation. And some he was cashing he

was cashing checks that other people

wrote and [clears throat] I think that's

his legacy. And it's a terrible thing to

say after he has been deceased. But uh

>> I know so many people including yourself

>> who paid a real cost.

>> Mhm. There was

>> such that such that younger people could

enjoy the rights they they so so so much

enjoy. And not only that, the Republican

party's come a long way on this.

>> Yep. I agree.

>> And he he was not only not an ally,

>> he picked up the gun and fired it,

>> you know, at his own troops.

>> Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. and

enjoyed the, you know, the closet in a

sub. It was gross. Um, I agree with you.

That's a very good one. I am going to do

a uh a win is which is um, you know, you

were talking about going to the to the

game. I was joking. I didn't want to go

to your game because I was actually with

my son Louis and we hiked all around San

Francisco and I have to tell you, I

think it's we we hiked on this beautiful

Sutro open reserve and just had the one

most wonderful long hike all day long.

is this idea of people and you're seeing

it more and more getting out of the

whole noise of everything IRL and it's