Sometimes it can feel like men and women

in relationships want entirely different

things. Like they're struggling to

communicate and connect on the same

level about the same set of priorities.

Jordan will now explain exactly why that

is. But outside of the context of a

relationship, all of us struggle in our

lives for a variety of different

reasons. And what Jordan's particularly

good at is telling anybody who's right

now listening to this that is struggling

in some way or finds themselves in a

situation where they're struggling to

get out and climb out of that situation

step by step how to do that. How to turn

that situation into the greatest success

of your life. And that's why I loved

this conversation and why I think you're

going to love it, too. And before this

episode starts, I've got a 10-second

favor to ask you that are listening to

this right now. 62% roughly of people

that listen to this podcast haven't yet

hit the subscribe button. If you could

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Enjoy the episode.

Jordan.

We had a conversation before and it

reached tens of millions of people. And

as I went through the feedback and the

comments of that conversation, I found

one that really stood out to me.

Someone said,

"I had just days of will left in my

body.

I felt like a failure.

I hadn't reached the potential I knew I

had in me.

Despite effort, I couldn't become the

person I was so desperate to become.

And then

I found Jordan.

And his unfiltered words pulled me from

my darkest moment just in time.

Now my life is in my hands once again.

And I've built a career and a life I'm

proud of.

So thank you, Jordan.

We may never meet,

but you've saved my life and my children

still have their father because of you."

It is one hell of an impact

that you've had on just that single

person's life. How do you receive such

incredible

feedback from a stranger you've never

met?

Well, when when you were reading that,

you know, I mean, it it's obviously a

very positive thing to hear,

but

my mind immediately went to why that's

the case.

See, I've been

in the fortunate position of being able

to synthesize

and then communicate a century's worth

of clinical

research and experience gathered by very

many extremely intelligent and careful

people. And then on top of that,

whatever I've managed to gather being

reasonably educated in the broader

sphere of the humanities and sciences,

let's say. And the effect that

this individual is attributing to me is

a consequence of that, right?

I've been successful because I've been a

conduit of good ideas and I have the

ability to synthesize a lot of

information and to communicate that to

people in a way that's understandable.

The

the person who made that comment, you

know, they were struggling for one

reason or another. And one of the things

you do with people who are struggling is

you make the simple even simpler.

Because then they can get a toehold.

You know, like if if they're really

barely able to move. I had one client,

you know, he was uh he had a hard life,

man. He was like 85. He'd fallen off a

ladder and broken his neck and they had

permanently fuse it, so he was basically

like this. He could hardly move. He was

so depressed. He literally couldn't get

out of bed. You know, it was awful. And

he was in chronic pain because of his

broken neck.

And so, you know, the first thing I did

with him was get him to sit up for like

30 seconds.

That was it. That's where he had to

start, you know? And after

I I worked with him when he was in the

hospital. After 2 weeks, he was walking

down the hall and able to sit up and

read for, you know, 5 or 6 minutes. And

he got out of the hospital. He went home

and

but he had to start

with the simplest possible steps. And

Hey, man, you start this is the

definition of humility in some ways is

that you start progressing where you can

start.

I think about this a lot because there's

a lot of people that are objectively or

subjectively down and out in their

lives. That's how they feel. And it's

often too intimidating to present them

with the idea of climbing Mount Everest

today, a proverbial Mount Everest. Like,

"Just pick yourself up and go to the gym

and work out

Right. And that Yeah, I know that's not

going to happen.

It's like putting them at the foot of

Mount Everest, but the small commitments

we keep to ourselves are often really

undervalued because they seem so

trivial. Like you saying to

the casual contempt. That's another

aspect of that. Well, one of the really

difficult things to learn when you're

down and out is how far you're down.

Because it's humiliating. You know, I

was ill recently and when I started to

recover, I couldn't really I I couldn't

really button my shirts. I had to learn

to do that again. I did I had forgotten

how to put my hands on keyboard. I

didn't know where to put my hands. I had

to learn to type again. Now,

I hadn't lost all the knowledge and it

came back quite quickly, but and the

reason I'm saying that is because

one of the impediments to people who've

really taken a blow in their life is

that

things have fallen apart around them so

badly that where they have to start is

humiliating even to consider.

The rule, it's pretty straightforward

rule when you want to get back on your

feet. And the rule is

you have to make the task small enough

so that you'll do it.

No matter how small that is.

You know, and that can

I've worked with people. I mean, one of

the things I've become well-known for is

my advice to start by cleaning up your

room. But I had plenty of clients who

couldn't

they couldn't go home and clean up their

room. They hadn't cleaned up their room

for like 20 years for all sorts of

reasons. Maybe because every time they

did try to do anything positive in their

family, no matter what it was, they were

immediately punished and undermined.

And so, if they even went home and dared

to start cleaning up their room, they'd

face resistance within the family that

was just a manifestation of the 50,000

times they'd been discouraged in the

past, but also a move that would upset

the insanity that characterized the

pattern of familiar interactions. So

actually, when if they even made a move

to clean up their room, what they were

doing simultaneously was confronting the

dragon in the family that had made every

single person in that household insane

for like five generations. Right? So, it

looks simple. It's not bloody simple.

And so, in a situation like that, you

cut it down so that maybe the first

thing they do is clean up like maybe

they look inside one drawer and see the

mess that's there and just look at it

for a minute and think about how they

might reorganize it if they were going

to. When people are very down and out

and they decide to make a move forward,

in some ways they're facing the whole

panoply of problems that confront them

in in the guise of that single problem.

Right? It's all lurking behind it,

right? It's like

you know,

they see the tip of a reptile's tail

outside a gigantic closet, let's say.

And they look and they think, "Well,

that's just the tip of a tail. What harm

can it do me?" But it's connected to the

whole damn beast. And the advantage to

that is that if you make that first step

forward, you're actually advancing in

the form of in the face of all that

opposition. The disadvantage is that

the first task seems so small that you

literally have to be on your knees to be

humble enough to lower yourself to take

that first step. You know, "God, is that

all I can do? I'm so useless."

You might even be more useless than that

because you might fail at it. I had lots

of clients who would come back, you

know, we'd make a deal that they would

do something simple. I remember one

client, it's such a comical story in a

terrible dark way.

You know, he was an overgrown infant

and he was 30. He was still living at

home in his messy, you know, high school

room under the thumb of his mother,

conveniently for him cuz then he never

had to do anything. And he had

managed to entice some girl into

sleeping with him and she got pregnant.

Now he's going to have a son. And he had

enough sense to come to me and say, "You

know, I'm kind of a wastrel and I've

mucked up my life, but maybe I'd like

not to destroy this kid. So, is there

something I could do to put myself

together?" So, you know, we talked that

through. We negotiated, which is what

you do with a client if you're sensible,

you know, you lay out the problem first.

Okay, what the hell's wrong with you, do

you think? You have to listen and listen

and listen. While the person unfolds

everything that might be wrong. They put

all their cards on the table. And then

you sort through them and you think,

"Well, some of that if they'll figure

this out themselves. Some of that's not

really the central issue." And so, you

imagine they lay all the cards on the

table and then you kind of get rid of

90% of them. It's a symptom. It's a

symptom. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's

it doesn't really bother me now that

I've talked about it. That doesn't seem

key. I think I'm really done with that.

That isn't interesting to me. But

they'll still have to lay it all out.

And then you focus on the problem. And

then the next thing you think is ask

them is something This is great general

problem solving strategy is okay if this

could be better as far as you're

concerned what would better look like

and then they have to lay their cards on

the table about that so you do the same

thing and now you have the diagnosis

that's the problem statement and now you

have a hypothetical

uh cure let's say and now you need a

strategy right and that would be the

steps in between the problem and the

final destination then you break down

the steps until you find the step that

they that the person will take and you

have to do that experimentally so the

first step for him was

to vacuum the carpet in his in his room

and so this is literally what he did he

brought the vacuum it was a stand up

vacuum he brought that into his room but

he only got it to the threshold and then

he left it 45° across the door le

leaning and he walked over it for a

whole week

and so then he had to come back and tell

me you know and he was embarrassed he

said you know

I got the vacuum cleaner

just to the doorway and I left it there

and then instead of bringing it into my

bedroom I just you know I put that an

obstacle in my own path and stepped over

it for a whole week it's a very

humiliating thing cuz he knew that his

life was on the line and he knew that

his son's life was on the line and he

knew that he was one useless bastard for

not being able to bring that vacuum

cleaner into the room you know but the

proper interpretation of that in part is

well you got the bloody thing out of the

closet didn't you

you know so what we did was renegotiate

this is called technically this is

called collaborative empiricism it's a

behavioral approach for clinicians and

the collaboration is

well as I said what's the problem

diagnosis what's the potential solution

you the person has to be on board with

all this right I mean they have to be

the people who decide that's the problem

you can't enforce that on them they have

to discover it for themselves and the

same with the solution and the same with

the strategies it's like I don't know

what's right for you I'll listen we can

jointly explore what might be the right

vision for you and then we can break

that down into a strategy but you you

have to be on board with the strategy

you have to feel that this is right for

you it's absolutely 100% crucial that

it's voluntary and then we'll say okay

well maybe this is a solution why don't

you go implement it come back next week

after having attempted this let's see

how it went you know and sometimes

people come back and say well you know

that went great and it started me and I

did three other things and you know what

we seem to be on the right track and

sometimes they come back and say nope

that didn't work at all like with the

vacuum cleaner

and so then you have to think what you

do in that situation is make the task

smaller if you make the task small

enough

I've never seen anyone

not be able to progress if they made the

task small enough but you know that can

be pretty humiliating now the upside is

that once you've take that first step

you've looked the beast in the face and

you'll start progressing not linearly

but exponentially in speed so what's

cool is that doesn't really matter how

small that first step is because it'll

start doubling and anything that doubles

grows unbelievably quickly and so that's

a very useful thing to know too and that

that's true when you're learning

anything new it's like you you'll feel

like an impostor you'll feel like a fool

cuz you are and you'll think I'll never

get there and and it might be the

destination might look very distant but

if you take

a sufficiently small first step and get

the ball rolling

you can be cruising along at a pretty

good rate

generally faster than you'll think

what's going on in one psychology there

is it building evidence of your own

capabilities and capacity

definitely what seems to happen when you

expose people to small but challenging

tasks it does two things it makes them

more skilled because now they're

actually dealing with the problem and so

they're acquiring the new perceptions

and the new behaviors that are mastery

so they're actually expanding their

domain of conceptual structures and

actions that's that's both conception

and skill but at the same time they're

seeing themselves as the actors that can

change the direction of their life for

example when you do exposure therapy

with people who have phobias agoraphobia

is probably the best example so

agoraphobia is a condition where people

will become so terrified generally of

life that they they often literally

can't go outside their house if they go

outside their house their anxiety levels

climb to the point where they have a

panic attack which is like the complete

disinhibition of the fight or flight

system very overwhelming experience

people will go out and they'll have a

panic attack and then they'll avoid

where they had the panic attack but then

the probability of the panic attack

starts to spread so that wherever they

go they have a panic attack and then

they end up stuck at home and it's quite

a common condition now the people who

develop that are generally women and

that's because women are more sensitive

to anxiety than men they're generally

women who had an over dependent

relationship with their parents maybe

particularly their father

they're generally women who went from

their father to an to a boyfriend who

was either overbearing and

overprotective or who was enticed into

becoming that by the dependency of the

person of the sufferer and then so

imagine you're dependent young woman you

haven't learned to stand on your two

feet every time you had a problem you

were taught to seek authority you

sheltered behind the protective walls

that someone else had established for

you you married someone like that now

he's he died or you're getting a divorce

or or so that wall is starting to come

down okay so all that existential panic

starts to rise you start panicking when

you go out and you end up at home unable

to move also thinking you're the only

person in the world who's suffering that

way and so what you do is you find out

you you you do a problem analysis and

you find out their core fears and what

agoraphobics are often afraid of

elevators and that's quite convenient

because

you know there are elevators everywhere

so you can start having them confront

their fear of elevators so how do you do

that

well if they're really terrified

you say well let's look why don't you

come sit by me and and let's look at

some pictures of some elevators

and you say look at the elevator okay

now imagine being 20 ft from it how are

you feeling they'll tell you they're

nervous you know they're afraid they're

going to get trapped in the elevator

they're afraid they'll have a heart

attack they'll they're afraid that

they'll be in there with other people

who are watching them panic and have a

heart attack and being humiliated so the

the two big categories of fears for

people are

like painful death

and then public humiliation and if you

have a really good anxiety fantasy it's

that you're going to undergo a painful

death in a very humiliating way and so

that's what they imagine happening in

the elevator so it's not exactly that

they're afraid of the elevator right

they're afraid of death and the

humiliation and the elevator is a portal

to the realm of death and humiliation

it's like I'm afraid of an elevator okay

how afraid can you could you look at an

elevator from a 100 yd down the hall

well like

if it isn't 100 yd then 125 yd like

you'll find some threshold that the

person can tolerate okay so now you're

at the threshold where

their the magnitude of their confidence

is precisely matched with the size of

the apparent dragon right so and you

they feel that it's like there's a place

where their fear will

they'll say that's close enough it's

like okay now you're on the edge you're

on the edge so now we'll dance on the

edge we'll move you a foot forward

okay so let's move a foot forward okay

anything that negative happening well

I'm feeling a little nervous okay well

let's just stand here for a bit keep

your eye on the elevator don't don't

hide cuz you can avoid by just not

looking we do this all the time we look

away

and the bigger the dragon the more we're

likely to look away you know people

don't people don't like to look at

and you can understand why

people will avert their eyes from

atrocity

right and they'll certainly avert their

eyes from the thought that they could

participate in the atrocity

and you could think of that as the heart

of darkness it's it isn't because you

could look at the fact that you could

take glee in the commission of atrocity

and and no one wants to look at that

well you start and you have to look at

that you have to look at that in the

final analysis

but one step at a time

you know and and you can do that with

any problem literally any problem break

it down break it down break it down

public speaking

anything

going to the gym anything anything a

small dose

you know a small dose and it's it's it's

so fun to do this with people it's the

same thing you do when you're when

you're

when you're encouraging your your young

child and that's a primary source of

gratification for human beings is

putting someone on the edge and

encouraging them and so you do that as a

clinician so I loved being a clinician

because

it you know people say well how can you

you know how how do you tolerate

listening to people's problems well

first of all they're not your problems.

You have to understand that.

Because if they're your problems, you're

stealing that person's problems from

them. You know, because you could come

to me, especially people who are

you know, very unsophisticated, they can

come and talk to somebody like a

well

experienced clinician, someone whose

breadth of knowledge exceeds theirs by a

substantial margin, and that person can

just give them advice.

But then they go act out that advice,

and then that's not them.

They have to come to it themselves. This

brings me to a point about trying to

help people in your life.

Because we all have people in our lives

that are struggling in some way, and our

knee-jerk response is to get in there

and fix

Solve the problem. Yeah, this is a

problem that men often have when they're

dealing with women. Yeah, yeah. They

They leap to the problem solution phase.

And they also do that in some ways to

avoid, and this is what annoys women,

because what the women want, and they

don't even know this, but this is what

the women want. Women are more sensitive

to threat than men.

Okay. So, they're looking for predators.

Now, predation detection is a It's an

intuition. Anxiety is an intuition.

Something's wrong.

Okay. What?

Well, then you guess, right? So, imagine

the threat system has sort of got

something in its sights, but it's a a

sense that something's not right, but

it's not fully fleshed out the picture,

because serpents are camouflaged, right?

So, the threat is hidden. Well, what the

woman wants is to lay out all the things

that might be wrong. Okay, well, the guy

doesn't want that, cuz first of all, you

know, maybe your wife is upset about

something in relationship to your

children, and she doesn't know what it

is. So, now she has to go through

everything she thinks that might be

wrong. Well,

even for you to listen, that's going to

be rough, because some of those things

are going to be about you.

And so, you just have to shut up, and

you have to let her put her cards on the

table, understanding. Now, she has to do

it in good faith.

Right? She can't be using that

opportunity to skewer you. And so, these

things are tricky to manage, but you

want to listen to her lay all the cards

on the table. Now, the advantage to that

is now you know where all the hidden

snakes are.

Now, if you do that, what you'll find

out, and so will she, is that most of

the things that she's worried about,

she's not actually worried about. She

won't know that until she lays them out

on the table and can see them. And then

both of you can triangulate to the

actual problem, and then you can

negotiate a solution and offer help. But

if you jump right to help, the reason

you can't do that is because you you

probably have the problem wrong. Mhm.

So, so then back to your question about

helping.

One of the most effective things you can

do to help people is to listen. And

there are technologies of listening. And

so, the first one is

don't assume that either you or the

person who's talking knows what the

problem is.

It's so hard.

Once you have the problem specified,

you've solved like 95% of the problem.

It's re That diagnostic move is really

hard. Are we sure we're addressing the

most crucial issue? You have to have

your sights focused right on the center

point of the cross, right? Like in a in

a gun sight. It's like, are we aiming at

the right target? And then you can start

negotiating problem solution. And so, so

it's but

you can develop the patience to do that

once you understand that that initial

act of listening is in itself the most

helpful thing you can do.

Just listen. And then

how do you listen? Okay, so if I'm

listening to you,

there'll be times when what you're

saying doesn't make sense.

And so, then I'll just say, well,

you're saying this now,

but you said this 5 minutes ago, and if

you listen a lot, you can learn to track

conversations across a very long span of

time, and that's quite fun. You said

this, but then you said this, and they

don't like they seem contradictory to

me. You're not accusing the person,

you're saying, I see an inconsistency in

the way you're formulating the problem.

And they'll sort of startle a little

bit, and then try to rectify that.

They'll check you out to see if you're

insulting them or trying to play a game

of moral superiority first, but if it's

just an honest question, then you're

actually helping them lay out a

description of the situation that's not

internally contradictory. Okay, so, and

the great podcasters do this. You see

this with Rogan, you know, all Rogan

does is ask stupid questions. Mhm. And

the way he does that is by consulting

with his own ignorance in humility.

Rogan is listening, he's thinking, I'm a

stupid lunkhead, and I don't understand

this.

What do you mean? And they What's That's

brave, because he's exposing his own

ignorance, but it's it's honest, because

he doesn't understand, but it also

unites him with his audience, because

especially with someone like Rogan, the

probability at this time that if Rogan

doesn't understand

the gist of the conversation that 95% of

his audience doesn't understand is it's

like 100%. The importance of listening

can't possibly be overstated. Listen,

ask questions until you understand. And

by doing that, you also help the other

person clarify the situation. It is so

hard to do. And I think we have to just

pause at that step, because

it is as you said, you said like, that's

95% of the challenge. It is so hard to

do in relationships, in work. I've sat

literally at this table with a colleague

of mine about a year ago, and she was

telling me, she works in one of my

companies, she was telling me that she's

unhappy in her role. Mhm. And I remember

sitting here, and she gave me a bunch of

reasons why, and I kept asking and

asking questions. And after just 30

minutes of asking the questions, she had

decided that in fact everything she just

said was not the issue, and then it

related back to a much more fundamental

issue of just meaning

Right. Right. She Well, she she Okay,

well, that's very important. That's very

important. Jung called that a

circumambulation.

Okay, so, now imagine the threat system

is going off, right? Saying, something's

wrong, something's wrong. But it it's

just it's an it's a primordial predator

predator detection instinct. That's

what's being triggered. It isn't

high resolute It isn't capable of high

resolution conceptual formulation, not

to begin with. Something's wrong,

something's wrong, something's wrong.

Okay, what?

Maybe this, maybe this, maybe this,

maybe this, maybe this, maybe Okay, now

what happens is the the maybes circle

and spiral, right? And as you lay them

out, you spiral inward to the gist of

the matter. But you have to See, because

you could imagine, well, this woman is

explaining her problems to you. She's

talking about things about the company

and her relationship with the company

that might be unsettling to you. So,

you're sitting there thinking, well,

she's laying out her problems,

maybe you're getting defensive. Well,

that's not true, the company's better

than that, that's an unfair accusation.

So, you're feeling on the spot. Plus,

you want to jump in with your, you know,

with your solution, because you want to

show that you're bigger than the problem

that she's showing, or maybe you're

secretly attracted to her, and you want

to be a white knight. I mean, there can

be 50 things. You're sitting there

thinking about what you're going to say

next, cuz you want to play dominance, or

maybe you think that's what you should

do, cuz you're a boss, and it's like

there's a lot of things that'll

interfere with listening.

But But so, you learn, you say, just

shut up, ask stupid questions until

really until the person that you're

listening to has specified the problem.

Now, if you're very fortunate, both of

you will converge on that, and it'll

just become clear. Think, oh,

you And you pointed this out. This is

what that's really all about. Now, the

person may be discovering, too, that

they were resistant to that conclusion.

They, you know, because the fundamental

threat is more key to their self-esteem

that they

to their conception of themself

than allowed them to be comfortable

before they get to the actual point,

which is where they're going to be most

vulnerable. They're going to throw out a

bunch of screen

concerns just to see if you can be

trusted with something that will reveal

their vulnerability. And they're even

doing that to themselves. It's like,

dare I tell the truth about this

situation, because I betrayed myself

before, so maybe not. You say right.

They They test you to the on the way to

the truth to see if how you'll respond.

Yes, or they're testing themselves, too.

And you know, and you can facilitate

that. See, if you facilitate that by

calm listening, then you're modeling the

fact that whatever the hell they have as

a problem isn't so terrifying that you

have to avoid it and run away. Yeah.

Right. Right. It's so interesting what

what was actually revealed, because this

person that works in one of my marketing

teams in a different company where

there's a CEO said to me, um,

it's the work she they were doing that

was causing them the the unease, and

that's the reason they wanted to leave,

etc. And I asked them the question after

about 30 minutes, when was the time you

were most happy in in the business? They

revealed to me that the time they were

most happy was when they were with me

overseas at the very beginning. And what

that really revealed at at its essence

was there'd been a change in the

proximity to me and the real meaning of

the work. And they now felt like they

were doing trivial things. Their

happiest time was when they were right

next to me doing the most important

stuff.

Right. The most So, the most difficult

problems. Yeah, you're solving the most

difficult problems.

When they were most challenged, and they

were they were So, really, the fix

wasn't what they thought it was. The

fix, and then now they actually text me.

I sent a message to one of my team

members last night saying,

I don't I just don't want to know. I

want to keep keep their identity safe.

So, let's say they were with me in

Canada, they text me like when they were

most happy, they text me last night

saying, I feel like Canada Jenny again.

Right. The adjustment that had to be

made was getting them back close to

bigger challenges.

Right. So, they wanted to be closer to

the front line, as it turned out. When

Freud first developed psychotherapy,

he developed this technique of free

association.

Okay, so all free association is and

this is what Freud This is why people

put Freud put people on the couch and

sat be- behind them.

See, if I'm face-to-face with you

and I'm laying out the problem space,

just what you're signaling to me by your

face might stop me from fully revealing

the truth because maybe you'll raise an

eyebrow or you there'll be a micro um

expression of disgust or contempt or

you'll look away or cuz I'm going to be

evaluating you to see how you're

reacting morally to my revelations. So,

Freud just hid himself. He said and I I

don't think that's strictly necessary,

but

but but it's a very wise intuition and

you can imagine how it would be helpful.

So, now I think the counter to that is

you can signal to someone who you're

talking to like open

reception of the message they're

receiving, right? It's just that and

kids love this, right? One of the things

kids are doing all the time is testing

you to see if you're paying attention

and they will modify their behavior in

any way imaginable to get attention.

There's no It's cuz there's no

difference between attention and love,

by the way. Like there's no difference.

And so,

I don't think you have to hide yourself

from your client, but that's why Freud

did it. Now, what Freud noticed and the

psychoanalysts is that is that if you

let people free associate,

the the topics that they picked would be

linked to one another. That reminds me

of this. That reminds me of this. That

reminds me of this. Now, obviously

because people aren't just emitting

random noises, there's a reason the

things they're revealing are linked.

There's some implicit similarity that

they're striving toward. Now,

often what will happen if you listen to

your wife, for example, she's laying out

a bunch of problems and it'll spiral.

It'll remind her of something this off

This happened with Freud. If you got to

the gist of it, it would remind people

of something that happened to them much

earlier in their life and often

something that was traumatic.

That So,

a trauma is a problem you encounter in

your life that's quite deep so that it

unsettles you that you do not resolve.

So, it's like it Imagine that in your

bedroom,

there were holes that you could fall

through into, you know, into trouble.

And so, you want to make a map of where

all the holes are

so that you can walk through the

landscape without falling into the pit.

Now, it would be better if you just

fixed the holes, but but at least you

have the landscape mapped out. Well, a

trauma is a a trauma is a hole that

hasn't been filled in.

And so, maybe you were if you had a

trauma when you were four, you hit a

wall and be- you couldn't resolve the

trauma, that's no different than not

maturing in relationship to that

problem. So, what you have at hand there

are that only the tools that you

developed by the time you were four.

Now, then you might encounter a

situation where

that's reminiscent of that. So, for

example,

someone might say, "I had a problem with

my boss. I have a recurring problem with

my boss." And so, you listen to him he

says, "That That reminds me exactly of

what my father did when I, you know, in

this situation when I was a kid." And

so, the reason the person is reacting to

their boss in a negative way is because

they're using the same conceptual

structure that they used to construe

their father when they were four. You'll

see this in marriages all the time. Like

if you have a recurring problem with

your partner that's that that that you

really can't understand. Now, it might

be your

fixation at some developmental stage

that's the problem. Like she's

interacting with you in a way that

elicits your 13-year-old self

consistently. But she also might be

reacting to you in a way that elicits

her 13-year-old self. And so then but if

you listen to her, she'll get to that.

And then she'll tell you the story and

then

sometimes she'll be able to figure out

what to do about that herself or

sometimes you'll have to discuss it, but

it almost always

results in tears.

Almost always. And I think the reason

for that is think that what happens is

when people break down in tears. So,

children cry quite often.

And they cry when they encounter an

impediment that they can't surmount. And

I think what tears do is dissolve you to

the state of neurological plasticity

that characterizes early childhood so

that you can learn.

Now, people don't like that, right? That

reversion. It's humiliating, but

you know, you have to break. That's the

crying. The The crying is an indication

that the current conceptual sub-

structure is insufficient. It has to

die.

And then the tears come, right? And then

now you're prepared neurologically to

learn something new and that'll be

whatever comes out of the discussion and

that'll replace that old conceptual

structure that's outdated and immature

with a new

somewhat fragile conceptual structure,

right? And then the person will try that

out a couple of times. Like maybe you

would This is something where you have

to It's like something that's just come

out of a cocoon. You have to be very

careful when you negotiate with your

partner because

you know, maybe they'll decide that

they'll try a new tactic that you you

have both agreed on, but the first

30 times they implement that new tactic,

first of all, they won't do it very well

cuz it's new and second, if you punish

it,

it'll kill it right away.

Yes, so you were describing my

relationship very accurately.

Because I am someone who in the mid-

So, what's my my sort of attachment

style? I

grew up in a household where my parents

were very were at each other a lot. It

was fighting, arguing. So, I learned

very early on that relationships are

like prison. Right. Right.

I wanted to commitment I I ran from

commitment my whole life. I met someone

who had an opposite attachment style

where whenever things get a little bit

rocky, she wants to like latch on in a

sense. Like she really wants to make

sure that she's got my attention. Yeah.

For example, I could come home and say

one word that shows that I'm focused on

my work and then suddenly she's like

fighting for my attention. That makes me

want to run and that makes her want to

chase.

Right. Right.

And so, and then she'll, you know,

she'll get triggered and then she'll

kind of retreat and be it's quite

unquote like the word sulking is often

used.

So, we came up with a system where I

said to her,

"When you feel triggered by me not

giving you the attention you want and

when you end up spiraling,

can you just try and tell me as soon as

possible instead of like the 7-hour

silence?" Yeah. Um so, that was the

mechanism we came up for with and then

the first time she did that, I was, as

you said, very conscious of making sure

I didn't react badly to it or get

triggered by it.

Right. So, you're you're describing the

process I've been through entirely.

Yeah, well, this happens. This happens

to everyone. And those those sulks,

let's say, that's that's a nonverbal

threat response. Right. Right. And And

you want to replace that with a more

differentiated, practical, and more

immediate strategy.

You know, and so, you know, one of the

things

that I've seen, for example, with my

wife is that

um

the periods of time where she gets upset

shrink and shrink and shrink and shrink

because she can get from the problem to

the verbalizable statement of the

problem and the solution way, way

faster. How How long does that take?

Just from continual practice. Cuz

continual attention. It's like, "Oh, I'm

upset. Okay, well, what am I upset

about? Here's a bunch of things that I

might be upset about. Okay, which of

those are focal?" Like this is something

you can learn, you know? But you have to

You have to admit you're upset and you

also have to understand that you don't

know why. Cuz one of the things that'll

happen in a marriage with any close

relationship with any relationship is

like well, if you and I talk and we hit

a pit,

it's I would rather that it's your

fault.

Right? Cuz then you have to

take the conceptual structure and you

have to allow it to die and you have to

cry and you have something to learn and

it's you and it's an indication that

you're insufficient. It's way more

convenient for me if it's you.

Plus I get to feel moral superior and

like I have myself under control and

that I've, you know, I've mastered the

universe. And also,

women also in some ways want that from

men because they want the men to be

competent and so men will pretend to be

more competent than they are. It's like

you want to find out what the problem is

because then you can solve it. And one

of the things you have to consider is

that you're you're the problem. Maybe

you're not, but maybe you are. Now, you

might say, "Well, why should you undergo

the cataclysmic revelation that you're

the problem?" And the answer is cuz you

could stop being the problem. Like

that's the payoff. Cuz you might say,

"Well, why Why attend to your wife? Why

fight?"

And the answer is so you don't have to

fight again.

See, and I know this. So, I'm a very

agreeable person. I don't like conflict.

Like I'll do almost anything to

not to paper it over though, that's the

thing. To to fix it.

But the reason that I'll engage in

conflict is because I know, it isn't a

theory,

I know

that conflict delayed is conflict

multiplied. And so, if I do have a

problem with someone, I want to note it,

get it on the table,

fight it through to the bloody bottom,

fix it, and move on. And there's a, you

know, that's that's a lot of emotional

stress and complex reconceptualization

and retooling. And people would rather

avoid that, you know, cuz you know, you

come home from work and your mind is on

something, whatever the hell it is, and

then this like snake pops up and you

think

do we really have to deal with this now?

It's like well

maybe.

And if not now when? And that's

something you can also negotiate, you

know, like I can give you an example of

that. So

there was a time, a very long time where

my daughter was insanely ill and

suffering brutally and deteriorating at

the same time and that's overwhelming by

definition cuz a problem you can't solve

is overwhelming. And then so the

question arises well how do you deal

with a problem that's overwhelming that

you can't solve

without making it worse. So one of the

things that Tammy and I did was we made

rules. It's like we didn't talk about

Michaela after 8:00 at night. It was

just off the table.

Because we knew well are are you going

to

are you going to go to sleep? Are you

going to need some sleep tonight?

Like if we're going to battle this for

like decades

we better not wear ourselves out. Okay,

how not to? Well, let's make some rules.

Like negotiating rules. And you can do

this.

This is good advice to the degree you

can give people advice about a

relationship. Here's something to

understand about your marriage. Okay.

You are going to have to listen to your

wife 90 minutes a week.

Okay, and you might as well just get

that through your thick skull. Now why?

If you listen to her enough you can make

peace and you can play.

So there's a huge benefit. If you don't

listen to her

that will accumulate

and you'll listen to her in divorce

court.

Like you will eventually listen.

And at some point you'll pay for the

privilege of doing so.

Right? Cuz there'll be other people

involved and then the backlog will be so

high that you might never escape from

it. Why don't men like to listen?

Well

often because the insufficiencies are

pointed at them. Mhm.

You know, and and and sometimes

especially if the woman, let's say, and

this can go both ways. Let's be sure

about this, but we'll we might as well

re- revoke re- re- revoke to the

stereotypes and I think it's fair

because women are more threat sensitive.

So they're more likely to bring up

problems. Now that's the disadvantage is

they bring up problems that don't exist

because that's a false positive. But the

advantage is they bring up problems

before you're sensitive enough to see

them. And so this is very important if

you think about the role of women is

the woman is closer to the infant than

you.

Okay, so you're you know, doing whatever

the hell you're doing. You're

concentrating on your career. You know,

you're not especially when the infant's

under a year old. You're a step removed

now and good. You can be dealing with

the external world, but she's

concentrating on the little kids and one

of the things you want to hear from her

is what the hell's wrong with the kids

before you're wise enough to see it. Now

the price you pay for that is she might

be shorting out about things that don't

exist. So you know, and this is

especially true if your wife is high in

neuroticism and it could be true if the

husband is too, but as I said that's the

more stereotypical situation. So why

listen? To get to the signal.

Now will she get to the signal? Yes,

although she might not be very good at

that and it might take a lot of

listening. But if you listen long enough

she'll get better and better at it until

she'll get like really good at it. And

then the time between the emergence of

the problem and the solution will just

it'll collapse to the point where it's

virtually immediate. Now that can take

that's a very high level of mastery.

That can take a very long time. But then

you know, you also want to put forward

to your wife and yourself the

proposition that you're better than you

are which is well I can okay, I get the

problem. I can solve it. It's like no,

you probably don't get the problem and

even if you did it isn't necessarily the

case that you could solve it. And so you

have to put up with the fact that you're

going to have to be dragged through the

mud

uh cuz she's going to point to you know,

maybe her kid's upset because you're a

tyrant.

And you probably are a tyrant to some

degree, you know, clomping around

overconfident and all that. And so she's

going to poke you. Well maybe you're

this is how you're stupid and maybe this

is how you're stupid and maybe this is

how you're

long list of potential ways and actual

ways you could be stupid. So you have to

listen to that.

Now

your wife has to act in good faith. You

know, one of the things that Tammy and I

did when we first got married cuz I I

thought a lot of this through before we

got married. I said look, you know, if

we're going to do this you have to tell

me the truth.

I don't care what it is. You

I'll tell you the truth. But you have to

tell me the truth. I don't care what the

truth is.

But it has to be true.

Right? And so that's without that you

get nowhere. And you can't trust your

partner either. And so

your partner has to be all in. That's

why you have a marriage vow.

Cuz the marriage vow is basically this.

This is the vow.

No matter what you tell me I won't run

away.

And that's a of a vow, man.

Because

when when someone unveils their whole

heart, they unveil themselves all the

way down to hell. It's not

pleasant. It's awful.

And so they need to know that you will

not run away. And that's a vow because

what do you know? Look

the person's always going to be thinking

always, if you really knew who I was you

wouldn't love me. You wouldn't be with

me. And you know

hey, fair enough cuz people are full of

snakes.

And if all those snakes were revealed

perhaps the logical thing to do would

run would be to run. And so then you

might not you might say well why not

run? It's like well you want to run from

everyone for the rest of your life? You

want to forego the advantages of a

permanent relationship? And you're full

of snakes, too.

So you're both making a bad bet.

And so

you make the bad bet based on based on

the idea that if you are faithful and

you are truthful that you can resolve

the issues and you can. It it's a good

deal. Resolving issues.

Much of what you've talked about stems

back to childhood trauma and things that

happen in our our formative years. I

often wonder those holes in the bedroom

floor you describe, the the early

traumas. Can we ever

They're often in the bedroom floor by

the way. Yeah, mhm. You bet. Can we ever

fill those or can we just put planks of

wood over

Oh no, no, no. You you can't put planks

of wood over them. You have to fill

them. And what you do oh and and you can

do this. You know, let's say you were

bullied repeatedly when you were a kid.

Okay, you're probably still being

bullied because if you didn't

being a bully victim

is a stable trait.

So the great analysis of bullies that

have been done, Dan Olweus in Sweden did

this. He was a great psychologist. He

analyzed bullying behavior and bully

victim behavior. So he defined bullying

very carefully. You're a bully if you

use power

disproportionately.

So like if I'm 12 and I'm picking on

someone my own size, I'm not a bully.

Right? Cuz there's a the risk to me is

commensurate to the risk to them. That's

just aggression. That's just

competition. And even if it's violent,

it's not bullying. A bully is when I'm

12 and you're eight or when there's two

of us and one of you or when I get you

in a position where you're completely

vulnerable and can't defend yourself.

Disproportionate use of force, right?

Bully victim is someone the bullies will

check out. Imagine a bully comes into a

room full of kids. He'll poke at all the

kids and one of the kids will manifest a

disproportionate emotional response.

Well then it's like he just zeros in on

that. And those are often kids who are

higher in neuroticism or who are fragile

for other reasons. And then that can

become permanent and both the bullies

and the bully victims have a negative

long-term developmental trajectory. The

bullies tend to become criminal

and alienated on that front especially

as they move into high school and the

bully victims tend to become depressed,

anxious and dependent. If you have a

partner who's been a bully victim for

example, that's going to be brought into

your marriage and then one of the things

that's going to happen is every time you

try to have a dispute which is to

actually think and solve a problem,

they're going to see you through the

bully template. They're going to treat

you like you're a bully. They're going

to accuse you of being a bully. They're

going to bring up all the times before

when you acted like a bully and then

you're going to have to defend yourself.

And part of the reason that people can't

listen is cuz they also don't know how

to defend themselves. It's like

especially if you're here's 15 pieces of

evidence that you're a bully. It's like

can you

counter those?

Maybe. What if you're not very

articulate? You know, it might take you

two weeks to think up how to argue

yourself out of that plus you're going

to be doubtful about it.

You know, so those are very complicated

things to work through, but

you can listen.

If you listen, the person will dispense

with some of their accusations by

themselves.

The accusations that can't be dispensed

with though now those are

questions. You know, maybe your kid's

upset it when they he or she's

interacting with you and your wife says,

well you're too hard on him.

It's like well

are you? Well, it's time for you to go

away for like a week and meditate on

that.

Right? And that's

that's soul searching, right?

You're going to go down to the bottom of

your hearts. Like

well are you a bully? Are you a bully

like your father was a bully?

You know, are you a bully like a friend

who was a reprobate that you admired and

tried to copy was a bully? You know?

You have to see because maybe you are.

Maybe you should stop. But then you also

have to figure out how you would be if

you weren't being a bully. Then your

wife can help you. You know, and this is

another good rule for couple conflict.

Like let's say I'm unhappy with you. Say

so I come and tell you that. You can ask

me, okay what do you want?

If I could give you what you wanted

what would it be? Well, I don't know.

It's like no, sorry.

I cannot hit a target you won't specify.

Let's discuss it at least. We ought to

have a target here. And so this is also

if you're an employee, you got to know

this if you're an employee. You're going

to your boss with a problem.

Why don't you go with a solution, too?

You know, and if you're the sort of

employee who goes to your boss with a

solution,

you'll rocket yourself up the hierarchy

if you're in a halfway decent business.

You'll ratchet yourself up the hierarchy

so fast you can't believe it cuz you'll

get a reputation as the person who can

solve the problem. So, and you know, you

can actually play with this in in in

your marriage because one of the things

that you can do for example is

Well, let's say you say something that

irritated your wife. Okay, and then you

can say, "Okay." She'll say, "Well, you

That really bothered me." It's like,

"Okay." It's an open question. Why?

Maybe she's too goddamn sensitive and

maybe you're too much of a son of a

It's like, who knows, right? But

you can ask her, "Okay,

if I had said what you wanted me to say

in that situation, what would have I

said?"

Now, that's a hard question, she asked.

Think about that. It's like, "Well, what

would What would have worked?" And then

she'll say, "You know, well, maybe you

could have said this." And And then you

can say, "Okay, let me say it."

Now, then she asked and but it's sort of

like, "Let me say it. It'll be sort of

fake.

It'll be a first-pass approximation.

You're putting words in my mouth, but

let's assume that I'm trying to do

something better stupidly and badly to

begin with. You know, with an eye to

mastering it over 50 repetitions. So,

but I'll start by just saying it. So,

she'll tell you what to say and you can

say it. Now,

if you're absolutely 100% unwilling to

say it because you think it violates

your conscience, that's a whole

different issue. That means there's a

deeper discussion to be had. But maybe

you could try it.

You know, you could try it out for size.

And maybe she could see if that sort of

satisfied her. And now you've got a

rubric for

for how that interaction might go in the

future. Let's make it concrete.

You come home at the end of a work day.

Okay.

There should be

there's a right way of doing that that

you have to negotiate with your wife.

You know, maybe she rushes to the door

and meets you with all the problems of

the day.

Okay, that's probably not a great

strategy. You know, cuz you're already

up to here, you're tired. So is she

likely from whatever she was doing.

Maybe Maybe she was at work, too.

You can't meet each other when you're

both tired every single day for the rest

of your life with nothing but a ball of

problems. Partly because

if you do that 50 times, you're going to

view the person as just a a bunch of

snakes that are coming at you. That's

not good. Even if the problems that are

being pointed to are real. You know, you

might think, "Okay, so you come home

after work.

What would be the best way for that to

unfold?" And you have to negotiate that.

And I would say, "We You know, let's

parameterize that a bit. You're probably

hungry."

Well, you don't want to talk to someone.

This is another great rule. Don't talk

to your partner about something

complicated when they're hungry.

It's not going to work. So, maybe you

come home, you have something to eat,

you kick off your shoes, maybe you take

10 minutes for yourself, and then you

can talk. But you you want to get that

right. Or maybe she You come home, you

meet each other at the door, she gives

you a hug, you have something to eat,

you relax for a minute, maybe you have a

shower, but then you've already

negotiated about when you're going to

have a conversation. And you're going to

be prepared for it. Now, people do this

in the business. You don't just randomly

discuss a bunch of problems

at your business if it's running

reasonably well. You have a meeting,

it's parameterized. You kind of have an

agenda. You have to do that at home.

You have Your Your home is also a small

business and it has to be run like that.

And you have to spend 90 minutes at

least 90 minutes a week with your wife

just running the damn business. And I

can tell you if you don't do that,

you'll never get to the play, ever. Cuz

maybe you'll You know, you'll be

romantically interested in each other

and you you want to spend some time

together, but there's a bunch of

problems brewing, and your wife will

definitely do this. It will absolutely

happen is that when you're trying to be

interested in each other, these things

will come into her mind and distract her

and she'll bring them up. And then

you'll get pissed off because it's like,

"Well, we're supposed to be having fun

at the We're supposed to be attending to

each other. Why are you bringing that

up?" And the answer is,

"Well, we're together and these are

problems. We haven't set aside time to

deal with them."

The reason you should listen to your

wife is because if you listen to her

enough, she'll tell you what's wrong and

what she wants.

And then you can fix what's wrong and

you can give her what she wants.

In your practice, have you ever

encountered those holes in the bedroom,

those childhood traumas that you

realized at some point when you stared

into the patient's eyes,

they could never solve? Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

A bottomless abyss.

Yeah.

It's awful.

Yeah, I was in situations where, you

know, I I'd get to the bottom of it, I

thought, and then

It was like Dante's So, Dante's Inferno

for everyone who is reading listening,

you should read that book. Dante's

Inferno is a topography of hell.

So, underneath every problem is layers

of problems, right? Right to the bottom.

For Dante, the worst problem was

betrayal.

Right? And the reason betrayal is the

worst problem is like if you and I want

to have a relationship, we have to trust

each other.

And betrayal is the violation of the

trust upon which

relationships are predicated. So, it

blows apart everything. So, the lowest

level of hell for Dante, the bottom of

hell was filled with betrayers. And

that's right. That's childhood sexual

abuse. Like it's the ultimate betrayal,

right? It's the It's the A child sexual

predator is someone who takes the role

of guardian

to be the wolf.

Right? It's the worst form of betrayal.

And so it just devastates children. And

because they're actually faced with the

problem of malevolence at a very early

age. And they What the hell?

It's like you're four and now you see

the bottom of hell. Well, that's trauma.

And the only The way you treat that, by

the way, is you walk people through a

topography of hell. That's what you do.

And And you can do that. Well, let's say

you were abused when you were a kid.

Okay, so what's your problem? Well, your

problem is you've seen into the heart of

darkness. That's your problem. And just

blew you into pieces.

Could people really be like that? Is

that my father?

Right? Is that my uncle? How could he do

that? Well, that's You're gazing into

the face of malevolence itself.

You have to develop a philosophy of good

and evil. It's a religious philosophy

essentially because a philosophy of good

and evil is a religious philosophy.

Those are the same thing.

You have to You have to develop a

philosophy of evil and then you have to

understand how you combat that.

And that's very complicated. How do you

combat evil? With truth, with love, with

beauty. You have to start to embody

that.

You know, or maybe it's even worse.

You're traumatized because you did

something like brutal, seriously brutal,

and maybe you enjoyed it. That's a very

common pathway to post-traumatic stress

disorder for people. And then

post-traumatic stress disorder occurs

when you have a very large hole that,

you know, gapes large enough to swallow

virtually everything that hasn't been

fixed or papered over.

You do that by finding your way out of

hell, and that's what happens in the

Inferno, too. Dante is guided through

hell by Virgil, who's the spirit that

guides you through hell. That's a good

way of thinking about it.

So, and every problem, even the problems

your wife brings to you, especially if

they repeat, there are levels underneath

that, and at the bottom there's a

betrayal, something like that. There's

some bit of hell in there somewhere.

And so And sometimes, you know, if you

go all the way to the bottom

and you solve that bottom problem, you

solve a whole bunch of peripheral

problems.

So, and there's a movie, Apocalypse Now,

that's about a journey to the heart of

darkness, and that's what the book is

about, Conrad Joseph Conrad's book. And

there's a documentary called Heart of

Darkness that

describes the making of Apocalypse Now.

And the people who made Apocalypse Now,

which was a movie about a journey to the

heart of darkness, it had an effect on

them while they were making the movie.

And all of the people that were acting

in the movie and directing and producing

and financing all went on a journey to

the heart of darkness inside. And it

virtually killed them. One of them had a

heart attack. One of them went

completely broke.

Like they just had a catastrophe when

they were making this movie. They fell

into its archetypal clutches. Heart of

Darkness is the name of the documentary.

It's fascinating. Have you been on that

journey yourself?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sort of I would say in some ways

permanently. When I went back when I was

20 something like that, 20, I started

studying atrocity, right? And so I was

I've always been interested in

the Holocaust, Auschwitz in particular.

But It's a very particular interest.

Like evil,

Nazi Germany,

Auschwitz,

prison guard,

prison guard who enjoyed his work,

right? Cuz my my question was,

"How could you be an Auschwitz prison

guard who enjoyed his work?" Now, one

answer is, "Well, you're just like a

demon from another planet who's so

unlike me that I don't even have to

worry about it."

And that's a very convenient answer, but

it's not true.

Many many many many of the people, not

all, many of the people who were

involved in the Nazi atrocities were

perfectly ordinary people. They were

just like you.

And you think, "No, I wouldn't do that."

It's like,

that's not what the evidence suggests.

The evidence suggests that the vast

majority of people in Nazi Germany went

along with it. Now, not all of them were

dragged into the abyss itself, but

plenty were. And if you think you

wouldn't have been one of them, that

just means it's highly likely that you

would have cuz you have no idea what

you're capable of. There's a great book

about that, it's terrifying book called

Ordinary Men. And it's about the

initiation of a police battalion from

Germany who went to Poland after the

Germans marched into Poland. Now, these

were ordinary men. They were policemen,

middle-aged, who had grown up before the

Nazi propaganda mill got going. Okay, so

they weren't indoctrinated Nazis from

like the time they were four. They're

just ordinary middle-class guys. Plus,

their commander told them in Poland when

they were starting to do military work

even though they were civilian policemen

that they could go home, that they

didn't have to do this job, and that

there would be no repercussions. And in

fact, out of the battalion, a number of

men right at the beginning said, "I'm

not doing this." And they went home. The

vast majority went along. Now, why?

Okay.

So, now these policemen are in Poland

and they've been told the story, which

is that, you know, Germany's at war and

the reason for that is that evil Jews

have conspired up a, you know, a

conspiracy and they've united the

Western world against us and they're a

fifth column within the country and your

patriotic duty is to root them out now

that we're in Poland and you're saving

the fatherland and there's going to be

dirty work associated with it and do you

really want to leave all that to your

compatriots, you know, your companions,

your your guys? Cuz like if you and I

are together and someone that we're

working for presents us with a dirty job

and I say, "Well, I'm not doing that."

Well, then I leave it to you. So,

there's a kind of betrayal that's built

into that. Now, the guys that left

thought, "I don't care. I'm not doing

this." But most people didn't. And part

of the reason they didn't do it is cuz

they were loyal to their to their peers.

By the end of this, which took months,

these guys were taking na- naked

pregnant women out into the middle of

fields and shooting them in the back of

the head. Like and bec- becoming

violently ill because of doing so and

tearing themselves into shreds

internally, like sick sick at heart,

but doing it. And that's it. It's a

terrible thing to look at. And I started

looking at that like

40 years ago now. You know, it's

shocking.

And so, what did I discover? Well, I

discovered a lot of things. I discovered

that the root road to totalitarian hell

and atrocity is paved with lies.

Like lies are the pathway to hell.

Really.

Like practically and metaphysically. And

so, one of the things I decided, this

was in 1985, was that I was not I was

going to stop lying.

What does that mean practically?

Lies ruin your life.

Doesn't So, you will not accept a white

lie. You won't

Well, look, a white lie is worse than

better than a black lie, but look,

if you're really telling the truth,

you're serving truth at every level of

analysis simultaneously. It's right. So,

if if my words are landing properly,

they're going to be the words that work

right now and tomorrow and a week from

now and a month from now and they're

going to work for me and they're going

to work for you. So, a true statement

has levels of application and a white

lie is a statement that's true at one

level and false at another. Now, you

might not be able to Maybe you don't

have the wherewithal at that moment to

come up with the statement that

satisfies all the truth conditions at

every level. And so, you default to the

best you can manage. You know, your wife

says, "Do I look fat in this dress?" You

know, or or maybe she says, "How do I

look in this dress?" And you think you

don't like that dress. And you know, the

easy thing to do is to say, "I love it,

dear. Whatever you want." Or, you know,

"Of course not." But

that's and that's a white lie. But

that's not the optimal answer. Like a

better answer that is, um, "Don't ask me

questions like that."

And then you can have a discussion about

it. See, the thing is, I've done I

bought a lot of clothes for my wife. I

like clothes shopping for my wife. And I

tell her how I think she looks.

And the advantage to that is that if I

tell her that she looks good, she knows

I mean it. Mhm. Right? I'm not muddying

up the water. And

if I have to say something, I mean, I

It's not like I the number of times that

I've told her that I'm not happy with

the way she's presenting it. Like it's

it's virtually That virtually never

happens. She actually has extremely good

taste. And so, it's just an example, but

if you're forced into a situation where

you have to tell a white lie, there's

snakes somewhere that you haven't dealt

with.

And maybe the best you can do and that's

Leonard Cohen, the poet, said, "There's

no decent place to stand in a massacre."

You may have already compromised

yourself to the point where in that

situation, the best you can do is a lie.

But that means that you shouldn't have

bloody well been there to begin with.

And the answer to it in many respects is

honesty further upstream, honesty with

yourself and others further upstream.

You can get yourself in positions where

all of your options are bad.

And what that means is exactly as you

pointed out, you did something upstream,

man. Now, one of the things you do in

therapy is you find out what people did

upstream. Mhm. You know, and you'll find

this in your discussions with your wife.

There'll be a problem. And as you circle

towards it, you'll see, "Oh,

this is where I made a mistake." Mhm.

Right? This is what's wrong with me. And

then you can even you can even find out

if you look, you can you can go back

into your past and you can think, "Oh,

yeah.

That's when I made that decision. I knew

when I made it, it was bad decision, you

know?"

Mhm. And your life is full of

the consequences of decisions you took

in the past that put you on the wrong

path.

And you said we were talking about

repairing things. What you do is you go

back to where you made the mistake, you

figure out what the mistake was.

You know, there's this cartoon trope

that there's an angel on one shoulder

and a devil on the other. Well, you come

to a crossroad. That's also where you

meet the devil. You go this way or that

way. If you go the wrong direction, your

life will be then the consequences of

that bad choice. And then that will

tangle you up and then you'll suffer for

it. Then you have to figure out, "Okay,

what's the suffering? What's the

problem? When did I make the bad choice?

Which road should have I taken?" That's

how you fix a trauma.

You you replace the road you did take

with the road you should have taken. And

now you have a road forward. And once

you have a road forward, the trauma is

no longer traumatic cuz you have a road

Your brain brings up the past

because you have not specified the

proper road forward.

You go back into the road you took that

was the wrong road, you find out what

the right road was. Now you've you've

atoned, you've

confessed,

you've repented, and you have specified

the proper pathway forward. And that's

what you do when you negotiate a

solution to a problem with your wife,

too. Here's what we're do- Here's the

problem, here's what we did wrong.

Here's what we'll try to do in the

future. And if that new future map

works, that past trauma will be rendered

irrelevant.

As you know, because I've been sent

thousands of messages, these

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I'm going to make with you. If you join

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